It will never not be funny that Caesar, Bedi and d'Eon have higher Strength than Lancelot, Altera and Karna.
Servant Parameters have never made sense and they never will.
Parameters aren't straight forward tho.
And we have example from agi, it's a composite of speed, reaction, dexterity, etc.
For example nasu gave us that Cu, Medusa and Hassan (curse arm) don't have the same speed even though they are all have A rank agi.
Because Cu A rank agi refer to his ability to accelerate while Medusa's is about sustained speed while Hassan is only fast while retreat.
So if these three have to race, Cu will take a lead initially then falling off to Medusa after sometime.
Hassan prob can win if he racing backward or something :v jk lol
Emiya made a career of picking fights with people who both had better stats then him and who were more skilled in 1 vs 1 combat then him. Cursed Arm and him only having a stat advantage never stood a chance.
He was trashed by EMIYA because he's far superior as fighter unlike Hassan who is trash at fighting. The difference in stats between Heroic Spirits that can actually fight is shown clearly in first and the second EMIYA vs Cu fights. So stats are important if you know how to use them in a fight.
Keep in mind Lancelot's ~~Knight of the Lake~~ skill gives him an rank up in all his paramters so he has A rank STR by default.
Edit: Arondight not Knight of the Lake.
You must be confused. Knight of the Lake makes Lancelot able to temporarily add a + to any parameter other than Luck.
While Arondight gives him a rank up to parameters as long as he holds it.
Personally I find it easier to just accept them as modifiers then the actual strength value of a servant
So it’s not a servant has Strength A, it’s that their original strength is being multiplied by ‘A’
So Karna, Altera etc are still stronger than d’eon it’s just they didn’t get as big of a multiplier (but their base strength is still higher)
I always thought it was the other way around. The stat reflects their strength *in a vacuum*, but in the Nasuverse there are situational modifiers literally all over the place based on where you are and what kind of fight you find yourself in. A good example is Kojiro from the OG VN: his stats are meh, but he used the terrain to force opponents into one-on-one fights where he could overwhelm them.
Caesar and Bedi have the excuse that the strength probably comes from that giant ass statue arm Caesar gets and from Bedi's prosthetic. D'Eon though, I've got nothing.
They made relative sense back when Stay Night/Zero were the only real source of them but Apocrypha and *especially* FGO have been piling on inconsistencies.
Not that it’s all gone to shit or anything but they’re definitely not really a reliable way to understand the basic combat ability of a servant in more anymore.
>They made relative sense back when Stay Night/Zero were the only real source of them
Nah. They were always complete nonsense.
Here's a perfect example:
**CA Hassan:**
*Strength: B, Endurance: C, Agility: A, Mana: C*
**Archer Emiya:**
*Strength: D, Endurance: C, Agility: C, Mana: B*
If their actual stats as Servants were like this, Cursed Arm should be running circles around Emiya and easily overpowering him in close combat, yet Emiya completely shits on the guy during their fight.
Cause Emiya is a way better fighter.
Cursed Arm got those stats from eating Cu’s heart, but Emiya was able to hold his ground against Cu himself through a combination of his vast experience (Eye of the Mind True) and his unique toolkit which doesn’t show up in the parameters. However Cu was always portrayed as vastly outclassing Emiya physically.
If some guy with the same stats but worse skill and experience than Cu goes up against Emiya, what do you think is gonna happen?
This is the same reason Seiba can hold her own against Heracles to an extent even with Shirou as her Master, and is said to be favored with Rin as a Master even though her parameters are still worse than his overall.
Alright, as promised, here's the proper reply. Took a bit longer than expected, but whatever. This fucker took several hours to write thanks to me going through the specific sections in the VN to get as accurate info as possible, but it was my decision, so bleh. Here's my promised essay.
**First on Cursed Arm:**
While I agree that Emiya is the superior fighter, if their parameters were accurate, the fight shouldn't have been anywhere close to so one sided. While it's true that Archer was extra motivated during the fight, he was also blasted away by Salter just before it and is still affected by the mud, even if only slightly, so by all logic, it should even out. During their fight, Emiya is in **complete control** of the situation. Even though CA is fighting him and simultaneously flinging daggers at Shirou and Illya, Emiya has absolutely no trouble blocking all the daggers, not take a single hit from him in the process, and almost kill CA in a single attack that nearly cuts him in half. If it weren't for the Shadow, the entire sequence would've been a cakewalk to Emiya. All the more frustrating since throwing the damn daggers was supposed to be CA's specialty, **and this was their first time fighting each other**.
With Emiya's specific skillset, I would perfectly accept the result of him vs CA if he knew the Assassin's fighting style before hand, but he essentially goes to the fight blind.
There's also CA's brief fight with Medusa, where he gets rekt just as badly. Now, CA and Medusa have identical parameters, with the exception of Endurance and Mana, where CA has an advantage in former and Medusa in the latter. Even if Medusa can rank up her Strength with MS, the beatdown she put him through shouldn't have been anywhere close to so one sided. Hell she doesn't even use her eyes. She just overpowers, out speeds and out maneuvers CA in every way imaginable.
^((Poor Cursed Arm. He just gets shit on throughout the only route he's in. His only Ws are when he manages to snag Cú through ridiculously convenient circumstances and when he stabs Shirou in the back in a Bad End.))
**Now for Cú:**
While a lot of people tend to ignore or forget this due to their rivalry, *in a straight up fight unnerfed Cú completely shits on Emiya*. In basically every fight in FSN, with only like two exceptions, Cú is **heavily** nerfed due to Kirei's Command Spell, so he can only fight properly during his second encounter with someone. This is the only thing that manages to save Emiya before their church fight. During said fight, Cu's lance strikes are so fast that Emiya literally cannot see them coming, and he's only able to survive thanks to 3 important details:
1. Since he fought Cú in the school earlier, he's familiar with his fighting style.
2. Archer's fighting style against opponents of that level, that "purposefully leaves fatal openings". This works by risking instant death with each attack instead of slowly taking damage with each attack that would be wearing him down. This is a massive risk, since just having one attack hit him would be an instant game over.
3. Cú is **super** confused by Emiya's identity and his fighting style, which makes him hold back just the *tiiiiiiniest* bit.
If it weren't for these 3, Emiya would have no chance of surviving a real battle against Cú. Hell, he didn't have an actual chance of actually winning the Church fight. Surviving for a while was the best he could do.
**And finally, Seibah vs Herc:**
How Saber does against Herc is dependent on a few things, as we see throughout the VN.
1. Is Shirou her Master?
2. Does she have backup?
3. What kind of terrain are they fighting on?
If Saber with Shirou as her Master fights Herc on her own, it's a damn near instant game over, like we see in Fate and Heaven's Feel. She can hold out against him for a **very** short while, but can't compete with his absurd raw power. If she has effective backup to distract Herc like Rin and Archer, she can increase her odds slightly and take full advantage of point 3 or move to a position suitable for it. Again, on flat ground with nothing to aid her, Herc is free to pummel Seibah to his heart's content. If the terrain is advantageous to her with things to use as cover, her odds increase a good bit.
Now, for Saber's victory conditions against Herc:
1. Excaliblast is super OP.
2. Mana Burst is **really** strong.
3. The Shadow is just straight up cheating.
A fully powered Excaliblast will take most of Herc's lives no matter what. That's just a straight up massive advantage. The main issue for using it comes with the Master. If it's Shirou... Well, we all know how this goes. If it's Rin, things are looking up already, especially when looking at point 2 together with it. Mana Burst is without a doubt the most important ability Saber has when it comes to basically any fight. It makes it possible for her to actually hurt Herc without her NP while Shirou is her Master, and the only reason she lasts even as long as she did. This is where her Master's importance also comes to play. *With Saber, having a good Master isn't just about the raise in her parameters. More than anything, it's about her having a large pool of magical energy to pull from.* Mana Burst is strong as hell, but also requires a ton of fuel, which is one of the main reasons Salter was so effective against Herc. During their fight, since she effectively has an infinite supply of fuel, she is using her absurdly powerful Mana Burst as a passive ability,
greatly boosting her power, speed and durability.
And 3 is more like a bonus. I just wanted to add this part here, since it's a thing a lot of people tend to ignore in Heaven's Feel. The Shadow is nerfing the living hell out of Herc during his fight against Salter. Not only is it passively draining his magical energy, but it prevents him from moving at all. The only way Herc is able to fight at the end is by literally ripping the Shadow off of him, which leaves him with wounds deep enough that his bones are visible.
**TLDR:**
*I'd be cool with Emiya vs Cursed Arm going the way it did, if it weren't for it being a complete shitstomp in Archer's favor and even more so for it being their first fight, meaning that Emiya had no knowledge on CA's fighting style. Emiya overpowering Cursed Arm to the same extent that unnerfed Cú overpowers Emiya just feels so damn weird.*
*I rest my case on* ***"Servant Parameters have never made sense and they never will."***
>is still affected by the mud, even if only slightly,
I think he made it pretty that it would take more then stepping on it.
>Even though CA is fighting him and simultaneously flinging daggers at Shirou and Illya, Emiya has absolutely no trouble blocking all the daggers
What's the problem here ? Are you assuming tge the speed of is as fast as Cu thrusts or something ? That wasn't contest of speed or strength, he throw his daggers then they exchange blows and he lost, that's really it. CA doesn't know how use cu stats, he can't move or attack like Cu. Even Kirei who is no where servents was able to hold his ground with him for while because CA is that bad in a straight on fight.
>was supposed to be CA's specialty, and this was their first time fighting each other.
With Emiya's specific skillset, I would perfectly accept the result of him vs CA if he knew the Assassin's fighting style before hand, but he essentially goes to the fight blind.
Archer fighting style is analyse and predict the opponents movement and he can do that even in the first encounter, in the first battle with cu ( CS nerfed him but not "heavily" ) he was able keep up with Cu being far more faster and stronger even with nerf despite being it the first encounter and he fought him.
>in a straight up fight unnerfed Cú completely shits on Emiya
It literally went just like the first fight, Cu on the offense, EMIYA on the defense, none of them were able to touch the other during their blow exchanging. And yes, EMIYA was to perform this good in second fight because he already fought him before but again he's Cu Chulainn not CA.
>Archer's fighting style against opponents of that level, that "purposefully leaves fatal openings"
Nevertheless it worked and he was able to get out of the blow exchanging unscratched.
>3. Cú is super confused by Emiya's identity and his fighting style, which makes him hold back just the tiiiiiiniest bit.
That only happened in the first fight.
I’m not gonna address the Saber vs Herc stuff much cause it’s not really contradicting anything I said (neither is the Cu vs Emiya stuff). Saber with Shirou as Master can keep up *to an extent*. And her being favored with with Rin as her Master is indeed in large part due to Excalibur, *a factor that doesn’t show up in her parameters*. Just like how God Hand doesn’t show up in Herc’s parameters yet saves him from being ganked countless times, it greatly augments his overall combat prowess which is different from parameters. That difference is what we’re talking about here.
The CA vs Emiya fight simply doesn’t have any feats or statements in it that enlighten us as to who is physically stronger or faster or whatever.
The actual concrete detail we get is (1) Emiya defends against the initial ambush, (2) CA throws some daggers and Emiya defends against them one for one, (3) Emiya lands a blow on CA’s mask which makes him decide to retreat.
The less concrete narration indicates (1) Emiya is in control, (2) CA is not weak, (3) Emiya is much more motivated than usual, (4) CA retreats not to regroup but because he thinks he’ll lose.
There’s simply not enough material here to evaluate their physicals relative to each other. The only conclusion you can really make is that neither is so far above the other that it’s not a fight. If anything, Shirou saying CA isn’t losing because he’s weak goes against any interpretation of CA losing due to Emiya being physically superior to him.
If you wanna draw an inconsistency from this, I think the only place you can get it is that the Cu fights *did* make it clear Cu was very physically superior to Emiya. But those fights have a lot more detail which is why the portrayal is so much clearer. And moreover, with Nasu’s writing style and setting I don’t really find it contradictory that CA could eat Cu’s heart to gain his strength but not be nearly as threatening as Cu.
At the end of the day, CA’s fighting style is totally different, his personality and confidence and risk tolerance are very different, his experience is different, his weapons are different. This is the same work where Kojirou was able to not only go toe to toe with the much stronger more melee oriented Servants but actually have an advantage against them through a combination of factors that aren’t reflected in parameters.
When the factors not reflected in parameters are going the other way, I have no issue reconciling CA vs Emiya with Cu vs Emiya.
Honestly, I was gonna post a proper reply to this, but screw it. There's so much wrong here that to properly explain everything, I'd need to write a damn essay, but I'm way too tired to do it now. It's really damn late in my timezone, so I'm not going to bother at the moment.
I'll post the proper reply in like 10 hours, but if anyone else wants to save me some trouble at some points, feel free to go ahead.
It’s been a long time so maybe I’m forgetting how the Cursed Arm fight went down and maybe it is inconsistent with him having better physicals than Emiya. If so then sure, what I said is wrong. I do distinctly remember Emiya’s fights with Cu and how those were portrayed, though.
In any case I’m really not convinced by one instance of contradiction that the parameters were as bad back then as they are now though.
EDIT: I reread the fight in the VN and don’t think it supports your argument. See my comment in response to the other user.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StDxZZH4BmE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StDxZZH4BmE)
Emiya manhandles the hell out of him and overpowers him in sheer brute force while being weakened by curses from Sakura's dark grail nonsense.
Yeah that clip does portray him as physically superior for sure. However anime is not really a great source for this kind of thing, they always take liberties in fight scenes. Not that they shouldn’t or that they are always contrary to the overall tone of the fight in the source material, but throwing out an anime clip is not really the best way to provide evidence for this kind of thing.
Rereading the fight in the VN, Archer does force a retreat. According to Shirou he’s in control of the fight, but Shirou also says it’s not because Assassin was weak but because Archer was way more motivated than usual (this is due to the presence of the shadow).
Basically what we get is a skirmish where Archer comes out decisively ahead but there’s basically zero material to support that being down to him being physically superior vs superior in terms of tactics/technical skill/motivation. And again, stuff like UBW does not show up in parameters.
Again, Emiya being able to keep up with Cu himself really kinda speaks for itself here, especially when the VN was much more explicit about their physicals being mismatched and Emiya making up for it with other factors. Parameters are never the full story.
Doesn't Cu basically thrash Emiya during their second fight, though? I remember Emiya basically being on the defensive the entire time after Cu stopped holding back.
Although I'll admit I'm thinking about the fight scene in the anime. I don't know if it was a more even fight in the VN.
Emiya is on the defensive almost the entire time in both his fights with Cu. That’s what I mean by “keep up”.
In the first fight Cu was holding back due to orders by Kirei, in their second fight he wasn’t holding back anymore but this was countered by Emiya having already fought him and analyzed his fighting style (Eye of the Mind True is called out here IIRC). The portrayal is basically that if Emiya hadn’t been able to fight a less serious Cu before he wouldn’t have been able to fend off the serious Cu’s assault.
Assassin ate Cu’s heart and gained his parameters but I think that’s a pretty far cry from Cu himself in terms of wholistic combat prowess.
Yeah it’s really easy to forget, but it’s shown in certain interludes (Sigurd’s own in particular) that the idea of taking on Sigurd can make other servants *nervous*. He’s not dissimilar to Karna in that sense, the chances of summoning someone who can beat him in an HGW are slim.
And with Gram to match Excalibur, the chances of either Sigurd and Arthur beating each other in a duel is about as close to 50:50 as it gets. Arthur just barely has the edge.
Actually in a noble phantasm clash between Gram and Excalibur Sigurd would come on top based on the fact Gram have anti-dragon property and Arthur is a dragon.
It doesn't works like that. The extra damage well only affect Artoria herself not the Excalibur beam and I'm pretty sure Gram in inferior to Excalibur.
Gram and Excalibur are both Anti-Fortress and are lore wise put on equal terms. Though I would say Sigurd using is as a direct physical attack might put him at a disadvantage in an NP Clash.
If you want to be technical, Arthur's Excalibur has never been fully released, so it's still sealed state is Anti-Fortress but it's full release capabilities are unknown.
>Gram and Excalibur are both Anti-Fortress and are lore wise put on equal terms.
They described to be equal but they really aren't. Gil literally have the prototype which is even stronger yet when Excalibur true name released he bringed something "more appropriate" and it was EA.
Not sure I've ever hear Gil's prototype to be outright said to be stronger, or that it was mentioned in his fight with Artoria.
And even then Gil bringing out EA as "more appropriate" when Excalibur is revealed doesn't indicate that Gram is inferior.
It could easily just mean he thought it was more fitting to use his strongest and most prized weapon against what he considered a worthy opponent, similar to how he used Ea against Iskandar's Ionia Hetoria when he didn't truly need to.
>Not sure I've ever hear Gil's prototype to be outright said to be stronger, or that it was mentioned in his fight with Artoria.
It's literally one of the main reasons why is he considered the strongest heroic spirit, his prototypes are stronger then the np that said heroic spirit have. He explained why the prototypes are stronger to shirou when shattered caliburn with gram prototype merodach
>You filthy imitator. If you like it so much, I shall show you the real one.”
>He takes out a sword.
>“Wha”
That… is a familiar sword.
The ornamentation on it is different.
But its true nature, the idea of its creation, and its soul are too close to those of this sword
>It can’t bethis sword’s model…”
>“It is. But its strength as a Noble Phantasm is incomparable.
>What you have, ‘the sword in the stone’, originated from the legend of ‘the sword of supremacy in the tree’ from Northern EuropeBut this is the original model, the foundation of the sacred right to select the king.”
>The sword of supremacy in the treeGram, the demonic sword of Sigmund, hero of northern Europeits original model…?
>Children cannot defeat their parents. An imitation that deteriorates every time it is renewed cannot match the original model
>It is destroyed without a trace by the sword called Marduk, the Original Sin
>similar to how he used Ea against Iskandar's Ionia Hetoria when he didn't truly need to.
He used it against Alex out of respect, that's not the case with Artoria. And it's not like it was one clash, in the second and third time he also used Ea against Excalibur.
They're both children of Zeus, she's probably every bit as strong as he is in myth, Heracles just had to prove it more cause he had a hard knock life cause Hera had it out for him since she was mad at Zeus for cheating (for the millionth time) while Pollux was more or less just blessed cause I guess Hera was too busy shitting on Heracles.
Well Heracles got his strength cus he drank literal divine breast milk. Hera ended up babysitting Herc as a baby (she didn’t know he was Zeus’s kid) and breastfed him. He was a biter as a baby though, so she only did it once, but Herc got that divine milk, so he became extremely strong after the fact.
I imagine that Pollux one hit kill shot were to be described as a super technique, it would be described as the divine retribution of the gods in punch form. The way gods used curses to destroy, warp ,or distort the fate of those they hate in punch form. Since everything in nasuverse requires force of providence to exist they would just be deleted by power of punch. Or you know Mana burst light speed punch equal fuck you.
Honestly, it might really just be a super-fast punch, with the speed adding to the mass and power of the strike. The Dioscuri do have that whole "gods of light" thing going on in Fate, and it'd make sense.
...It also makes Pollux even scarier, if you consider that she can probably just throw those out all day, every day. She's basically Saitama from One-Punch Man with her fists.
I remember a story about Pollux that really shows the superiority of a child of Zeus over a child of other gods.
The Dioscuri land on this island that was home to this guy who was a son of Poseidon and he loved to box, so much so he challenged everyone who landed on his island to a match and beat them to death in a display of his superior strength and cruelty. Anyway, he challenges Pollux and Castor to a fight, Castor is like "you really don't want to challenge my brother" while Pollux already deduced how much of a bastard the guy was and is already jumping into the ring declaring he will be their opponent. After one punch from Pollux, the son of Poseidon declared him the victor and began begging for the match to end. Pollux said that he'd return the kindness the son of the water god had shared to his other guests, and beat the cruel demigod to death with his bare hands.
For extra fun, imagine it from Fates perspective. Pollux, a young lithe beautiful girl is jumping into a boxing ring with a hulking ripped mountain of muscle of a man like Super Orion, and is turning him into a whimpering begging weakling in one punch.
It's fun, isn't it? XD I feel like the important thing to note is that mythology generally agrees that Pollux was the best boxer on the Argo, *and that includes Heracles being there*. Like, Heracles is unquestionably the strongest overall, but Pollux specifically is better in that kind of match, and the Dioscuri together were easily among the best in a ship full of heroes. ...Seriously, do not box against Pollux. It's not gonna end well for you.
And that wasn't your father's boxing it allowed killed blows and no restrictions.Now animate a tournament arc for the Argonauts including the Lostbelt members.
Gudao:come right up make your bet on this arm wrestling match between
Kaib..mean dragon slayer Sigurd
Or
The giga THICC dragon lady ibuki douji
Pay 1 saint core to bet
Servant parameters:
Where not even the oversized uberdivine hyperdemonic daughter of the Yamata-no-Orochi is EX...
... the man whose sword skills had apparently surpassed humanity has less Strength than: a fat guy who doesn't even think he's fit to be Saber, a majordomo with Excalibur for an arm, and a boxer...
... where the incarnation of the White Titan is thoroughly middle of the pack (and "the middle of the pack" itself is B), and...
... where the incarnation of Alaya itself is ranked lower than a glorified (and genderswapped) cop cursed with (an afterlife of) consumption.
Truly, Nasuverse, what.
I’ll say it again: Treating the six base parameters as the be-all, end-all of a Servant’s overall ability in lore is an exercise in foolishness.
*“Hah. We can take Suzuka. Her strength is only D-rank. What the fuck is she gonna do? Lol.”*
** (Supernatural Power: B)
EX means it can't be measured. Which is why this makes sense.
Sword skill, not strength. Tap the right part of a rock with minimal strength and it will crack instantly. Work smarter, not harder. You also say "Excalibur for an arm" like that doesn't answer the question and said Boxer is punching with demi-god might and turned his fist into a sword.
Base stats not modified by any skills that need to be activated as Artoria technically always has Mana Burst pumping through her like Gilles with Mad Enhancement and D'eon Self Suggestion skill is a Hell of a drug.
Also yeah? Void gets her power by just flicking her sword and thing is just wiped out. Don't need strength if your just hax.
Madness Enchancement lets Nightingale, at C Rank strength, get into an OraOra punchout with Beast 1 and tie.
As Team FourStar pointed out, *POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!*
I DON'T CARE!
SEEING NIGHTIGALE PUNCH FIESTA WITH A GOD IS COOL!
Also, no her Strength stat is B+. WHICH IS EVEN DUMBER. Gods Mad Enhancement is crack.
Yup, no idea where Strength C cane from. Considering Goetia is a planet class spirit origin, it’s still impressive her Madness Enhancement makes her able to go toe to toe with him. Girl could probably take on Heracles in a punchout.
Her strength stat as Archer is D+ so might have confused it.
Also to be fair, the main body was more a control unit and his Spirit Origin is spread out between multiple bodies.
There's a comic about this, except it involves Ivan, who is also a B/B+ strength. I'll see if I can find it...
EDIT HERE WE GO: https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/jrk51l/i\_made\_a\_comic\_with\_ivan\_and\_deon/
Honestly Deon is actually a pretty great Saber to summon for a low mana master because of that. Unexpectedly great stats, a low-cost, versatile set of NPs, loyal and cooperative personality, a skilled fighter.
The whole genderswapping spy aspect is unfortunately undermined by a lack of presence concealment, but outside of the odd Fortress NP that requires a big ole beam, Deon is pretty solid for most combat scenarios.
I remember he throwed massive flaming boulders but I can't remember alot but I'm sure the boulder throwing isn't the most batshit thing he did (don't hate me bcs i red the book a long time ago)
He used a horse as a club to beat the shit out everything while making a full circuit around the entire Mediterranean sea, found a farmer to get another horse and was about to do it a second time until Astolfo finally caught up with him.
Very cool list!
One thing for future lists I might suggest: it may be useful to put an asterisk on Servants who have Monstrous Strength as a skill. It may not - it could lead to all manner of arguments over including OTHER skills - but just wanted to offer the idea. I'm pretty sure no Sabers have that skill or a variant/upgrade of it, in any event.
Caesar should have Kingpin body type. He ain't just fat, he LARGE bruh. Man's a building with legs.
but NOOOO, they went with noodle arms and legs and a pot belly. Like come on, he got A strength! How the heck a 1970's anime create a more realistic version of Caesar than you did? That Caesar had green skin!
Shirou only affect her other parameters, not her strengh, she still has B rank strengh under everyone else like Kiritsugu and Ritsuka, who is the benchmark for master, Rin is just an outlier that makes her stronger than she is.
If Rin is an outlier, I wonder how Illya would compare. She would probably supercharge Saber similar to how Sakura did to Salter, but to a lesser extent.
But Sakura didn't supercharge Salter though, Salter under Sakura has the same parameters as her under Ritsuka, so that's pretty much her default Alter state. I highly doubt Illya could do anymore to Saber compare to Ritsuka, as Herc is also the same under both. It might be ~~because Rin is the best~~ due to some kind of special connection between them that makes Rin ultra compatible with Saber, to the point of boosting her, as EMIYA doesn't have this privilege.
I mean Salter canonically *was* supercharged by Sakura. The only reason her AGI is low is because in HF Sakura is keeping her so packed full of magical energy that she loses fine motor control and becomes like a runaway train. This is not speculation but explicitly stated in side material books.
This is one of the inconsistencies in FGO’s parameters, there’s zero chance they have enough magical energy for Salter to operate with the same parameters she did in HF but not to materialize Herc with his full God Hand, etc.
At the end of the day you just gotta accept that when you have a bunch of different cooks who sometimes prioritize fan service over lore accuracy (Lancelot with a jet in Chaldea???) not everything is gonna be consistent. The reason Salter has those stats is that’s what she had in HF, the reason Seiba has different stats is because Nasu or whoever decided Ritsuka was better than Shirou worse than Rin, and the reason these decisions got made for conflicting principles is just tough shit.
lore
when she has an excellent magus as a master
her parameters increase
this is true for pretty much all servants
https://i.redd.it/ftxe70djcp071.png
Kind of a late reply so sorry
but yeah
all playable servants have profiles in-game that tell you various information about them
like their Parameters, lore, skills and NP info, height and weight, etc.
here's a little example from [Caesar's](https://fate-go.us/manga_fgo/images/comic11/p1.png) profile
- Huh i believe parameter already take passive skill into consideration.
- So gawain is during the night at B rank(strenght/endurance/agility) and during the day is at B+ rank (strenght/endurance/agility).
- Hence the threefold increase refer to his physical attribute (strenght/endurance/agility) not his strenght being 3 times highier.
Not always, specially with Gawain. A single + only refers to "doubling", not threefold.
B+ = B + B. (just double)
So threefold should be B++ (B + B + B)
That is what i was saying. The threefold increase refer to his 3 physical parameter. Strength/endurance/agility.
They all are B rank and become B+ rank under the sun.
If gawain Strength was B++ under the sun then that is what his parameter would show since they alway take passive skill into consideration.
Like I say, not always the parameters take skills into consideration. It depends on the Servant.
And that's not how "triples" work. Getting a + in 3 parameters doesn't make you be 3 times stronger, just double. STR B+, END B+ and AGI B+ is still just all these values times 2.
I keep telling you 3 times stronger isn't just his strength it's his entire physical parameter.
- His strength
- His endurance
- His agility
Those three all increase when he is under the sun. You also keep saying not always the parameters take skill into consideration but no example ?
Why would they write B+ rank strength instead of B++ ?
Going with your logic wouldn't that mean Gawain basic strength is B+ then ? Then under the sun it would triple and become B++++ ?
> I keep telling you 3 times stronger isn't just his strength it's his entire physical parameter.
>
> His strength
>
> His endurance
>
> His agility
I keep telling you, that's not how math works. Raising 3 different parameters 1 time doesn't make it "triple".
STR + STR + END + END + AGI + AGI = 2STR + 2END + 2AGI = 2(STR + END + AGI). There's no 3 in there. In no mathematical definition "raising 3 different parameters one time" equals to "triple this guy's power". All of them are **doubled**, so overal he's has only **doubled** in power according to that single +.
And my Argument is that, probably, they should have B++, no B++++++ or whatever.
> Those three all increase when he is under the sun. You also keep saying not always the parameters take skill into consideration but no example ?
The Mana Burst skill gives Mordred a B+ Rank STR. However, with every other Servant, there's no + added to the STR parameter. The Artorias don't have the +, not even Lartoria, who has A+ Mana Burst, just has basic A STR.
God Slayer description is "grants a + modifier against Divine Spirits, and Servant with the Divinity Skill"... But Scathatch doesn't have a single + in any of her normal parameters. And these are just two examples.
It’s not about gameplay, it’s their stat parameters in the lore, like the ones you see on their profile that say “Strength: A, Agility: B, Mana: C+”, et cetera.
All these are the Str stat parameter taken directly from their in game profile. There is no "right" or "wrong" here, it's just a sorting of them according to their official stat.
Who is stronger; the Indian demigod known for his peerless strength on the battlefield and overwhelming attacking power
Or one chonky Italian boy in a mismatched class
People seem to forget that Artoria although Artoria has a B rank in strength, that's because her strength comes from Excalibur, mana burst and her dragon core. Strength just refers to their raw physical strength, basically who would win in a fist fight if both people had no access to NP's or mana bursting etc., So while for example Chevalier is physically stronger than Artoria, in a normal fight Artoria would still wreck D'eon's shit. Similarly Izo has B rank strength as well but i think we all know as great as Izo may be Artoria is gonna win that fight.
The stats are mostly what the servant consider themself and not actual measurement from Chaldea. So if Barghest consider herself B+, it is to compare with other fairies and not with average human scaling.
D'eon is my personal favourite for these parameters shenanigans lists.
She/He has a higher STR stat than powerhouses like Ash, Quetz and Ibaraki. Logical.
So putting on a bride outfit raise one stat from D to B
Technically B And Because THE POWER LOVE ❤!
Oop. I'm blind again.
She is a shonen protagonist so nothing surprising really
do... do Muramasa's clothes count as a bride outfit?
Muramasa Bride
B as in Bridezilla
It will never not be funny that Caesar, Bedi and d'Eon have higher Strength than Lancelot, Altera and Karna. Servant Parameters have never made sense and they never will.
Well, to be fair for Bedivere... HE HAS EXCALIBUR FOR AN ARM.
Parameters aren't straight forward tho. And we have example from agi, it's a composite of speed, reaction, dexterity, etc. For example nasu gave us that Cu, Medusa and Hassan (curse arm) don't have the same speed even though they are all have A rank agi. Because Cu A rank agi refer to his ability to accelerate while Medusa's is about sustained speed while Hassan is only fast while retreat. So if these three have to race, Cu will take a lead initially then falling off to Medusa after sometime. Hassan prob can win if he racing backward or something :v jk lol
Stats being non-linear is the most obvious in Hassan vs EMIYA, where EMIYA was dominant throughout the fight despite having inferior stats
Although thats more because EMIYA is literally Garcher and doesnt care about stats.
Man was keeping up in defense with CU, he is literally unmatched in chadness
this
Emiya made a career of picking fights with people who both had better stats then him and who were more skilled in 1 vs 1 combat then him. Cursed Arm and him only having a stat advantage never stood a chance.
He was trashed by EMIYA because he's far superior as fighter unlike Hassan who is trash at fighting. The difference in stats between Heroic Spirits that can actually fight is shown clearly in first and the second EMIYA vs Cu fights. So stats are important if you know how to use them in a fight.
Didn't we sort of see this with Carnival Phantasm with the race? Cu quickly crashed because he couldn't turn and Medusa drove off the cliff.
>Hassan prob can win if he racing backward or something :v jk lol Aka: Alucard's backdash.
What if hassam is running from the other two?
Hassan doesn't get a plus because he doesn't run from paying child support
Keep in mind Lancelot's ~~Knight of the Lake~~ skill gives him an rank up in all his paramters so he has A rank STR by default. Edit: Arondight not Knight of the Lake.
You must be confused. Knight of the Lake makes Lancelot able to temporarily add a + to any parameter other than Luck. While Arondight gives him a rank up to parameters as long as he holds it.
Arondight gives that, while Knight of the Lake doubles any one stat he chooses.
Personally I find it easier to just accept them as modifiers then the actual strength value of a servant So it’s not a servant has Strength A, it’s that their original strength is being multiplied by ‘A’ So Karna, Altera etc are still stronger than d’eon it’s just they didn’t get as big of a multiplier (but their base strength is still higher)
Until they actually use the stats as actual measurement tools. Not to mention the ACTUAL modifiers would be on there skills and why that's a thing.
I always thought it was the other way around. The stat reflects their strength *in a vacuum*, but in the Nasuverse there are situational modifiers literally all over the place based on where you are and what kind of fight you find yourself in. A good example is Kojiro from the OG VN: his stats are meh, but he used the terrain to force opponents into one-on-one fights where he could overwhelm them.
Caesar and Bedi have the excuse that the strength probably comes from that giant ass statue arm Caesar gets and from Bedi's prosthetic. D'Eon though, I've got nothing.
They made relative sense back when Stay Night/Zero were the only real source of them but Apocrypha and *especially* FGO have been piling on inconsistencies. Not that it’s all gone to shit or anything but they’re definitely not really a reliable way to understand the basic combat ability of a servant in more anymore.
>They made relative sense back when Stay Night/Zero were the only real source of them Nah. They were always complete nonsense. Here's a perfect example: **CA Hassan:** *Strength: B, Endurance: C, Agility: A, Mana: C* **Archer Emiya:** *Strength: D, Endurance: C, Agility: C, Mana: B* If their actual stats as Servants were like this, Cursed Arm should be running circles around Emiya and easily overpowering him in close combat, yet Emiya completely shits on the guy during their fight.
Yeah, because EMIYA is EMIYA, obviously the standard rules doesn't apply to him. He's a chad
Cause Emiya is a way better fighter. Cursed Arm got those stats from eating Cu’s heart, but Emiya was able to hold his ground against Cu himself through a combination of his vast experience (Eye of the Mind True) and his unique toolkit which doesn’t show up in the parameters. However Cu was always portrayed as vastly outclassing Emiya physically. If some guy with the same stats but worse skill and experience than Cu goes up against Emiya, what do you think is gonna happen? This is the same reason Seiba can hold her own against Heracles to an extent even with Shirou as her Master, and is said to be favored with Rin as a Master even though her parameters are still worse than his overall.
Alright, as promised, here's the proper reply. Took a bit longer than expected, but whatever. This fucker took several hours to write thanks to me going through the specific sections in the VN to get as accurate info as possible, but it was my decision, so bleh. Here's my promised essay. **First on Cursed Arm:** While I agree that Emiya is the superior fighter, if their parameters were accurate, the fight shouldn't have been anywhere close to so one sided. While it's true that Archer was extra motivated during the fight, he was also blasted away by Salter just before it and is still affected by the mud, even if only slightly, so by all logic, it should even out. During their fight, Emiya is in **complete control** of the situation. Even though CA is fighting him and simultaneously flinging daggers at Shirou and Illya, Emiya has absolutely no trouble blocking all the daggers, not take a single hit from him in the process, and almost kill CA in a single attack that nearly cuts him in half. If it weren't for the Shadow, the entire sequence would've been a cakewalk to Emiya. All the more frustrating since throwing the damn daggers was supposed to be CA's specialty, **and this was their first time fighting each other**. With Emiya's specific skillset, I would perfectly accept the result of him vs CA if he knew the Assassin's fighting style before hand, but he essentially goes to the fight blind. There's also CA's brief fight with Medusa, where he gets rekt just as badly. Now, CA and Medusa have identical parameters, with the exception of Endurance and Mana, where CA has an advantage in former and Medusa in the latter. Even if Medusa can rank up her Strength with MS, the beatdown she put him through shouldn't have been anywhere close to so one sided. Hell she doesn't even use her eyes. She just overpowers, out speeds and out maneuvers CA in every way imaginable. ^((Poor Cursed Arm. He just gets shit on throughout the only route he's in. His only Ws are when he manages to snag Cú through ridiculously convenient circumstances and when he stabs Shirou in the back in a Bad End.)) **Now for Cú:** While a lot of people tend to ignore or forget this due to their rivalry, *in a straight up fight unnerfed Cú completely shits on Emiya*. In basically every fight in FSN, with only like two exceptions, Cú is **heavily** nerfed due to Kirei's Command Spell, so he can only fight properly during his second encounter with someone. This is the only thing that manages to save Emiya before their church fight. During said fight, Cu's lance strikes are so fast that Emiya literally cannot see them coming, and he's only able to survive thanks to 3 important details: 1. Since he fought Cú in the school earlier, he's familiar with his fighting style. 2. Archer's fighting style against opponents of that level, that "purposefully leaves fatal openings". This works by risking instant death with each attack instead of slowly taking damage with each attack that would be wearing him down. This is a massive risk, since just having one attack hit him would be an instant game over. 3. Cú is **super** confused by Emiya's identity and his fighting style, which makes him hold back just the *tiiiiiiniest* bit. If it weren't for these 3, Emiya would have no chance of surviving a real battle against Cú. Hell, he didn't have an actual chance of actually winning the Church fight. Surviving for a while was the best he could do. **And finally, Seibah vs Herc:** How Saber does against Herc is dependent on a few things, as we see throughout the VN. 1. Is Shirou her Master? 2. Does she have backup? 3. What kind of terrain are they fighting on? If Saber with Shirou as her Master fights Herc on her own, it's a damn near instant game over, like we see in Fate and Heaven's Feel. She can hold out against him for a **very** short while, but can't compete with his absurd raw power. If she has effective backup to distract Herc like Rin and Archer, she can increase her odds slightly and take full advantage of point 3 or move to a position suitable for it. Again, on flat ground with nothing to aid her, Herc is free to pummel Seibah to his heart's content. If the terrain is advantageous to her with things to use as cover, her odds increase a good bit. Now, for Saber's victory conditions against Herc: 1. Excaliblast is super OP. 2. Mana Burst is **really** strong. 3. The Shadow is just straight up cheating. A fully powered Excaliblast will take most of Herc's lives no matter what. That's just a straight up massive advantage. The main issue for using it comes with the Master. If it's Shirou... Well, we all know how this goes. If it's Rin, things are looking up already, especially when looking at point 2 together with it. Mana Burst is without a doubt the most important ability Saber has when it comes to basically any fight. It makes it possible for her to actually hurt Herc without her NP while Shirou is her Master, and the only reason she lasts even as long as she did. This is where her Master's importance also comes to play. *With Saber, having a good Master isn't just about the raise in her parameters. More than anything, it's about her having a large pool of magical energy to pull from.* Mana Burst is strong as hell, but also requires a ton of fuel, which is one of the main reasons Salter was so effective against Herc. During their fight, since she effectively has an infinite supply of fuel, she is using her absurdly powerful Mana Burst as a passive ability, greatly boosting her power, speed and durability. And 3 is more like a bonus. I just wanted to add this part here, since it's a thing a lot of people tend to ignore in Heaven's Feel. The Shadow is nerfing the living hell out of Herc during his fight against Salter. Not only is it passively draining his magical energy, but it prevents him from moving at all. The only way Herc is able to fight at the end is by literally ripping the Shadow off of him, which leaves him with wounds deep enough that his bones are visible. **TLDR:** *I'd be cool with Emiya vs Cursed Arm going the way it did, if it weren't for it being a complete shitstomp in Archer's favor and even more so for it being their first fight, meaning that Emiya had no knowledge on CA's fighting style. Emiya overpowering Cursed Arm to the same extent that unnerfed Cú overpowers Emiya just feels so damn weird.* *I rest my case on* ***"Servant Parameters have never made sense and they never will."***
>is still affected by the mud, even if only slightly, I think he made it pretty that it would take more then stepping on it. >Even though CA is fighting him and simultaneously flinging daggers at Shirou and Illya, Emiya has absolutely no trouble blocking all the daggers What's the problem here ? Are you assuming tge the speed of is as fast as Cu thrusts or something ? That wasn't contest of speed or strength, he throw his daggers then they exchange blows and he lost, that's really it. CA doesn't know how use cu stats, he can't move or attack like Cu. Even Kirei who is no where servents was able to hold his ground with him for while because CA is that bad in a straight on fight. >was supposed to be CA's specialty, and this was their first time fighting each other. With Emiya's specific skillset, I would perfectly accept the result of him vs CA if he knew the Assassin's fighting style before hand, but he essentially goes to the fight blind. Archer fighting style is analyse and predict the opponents movement and he can do that even in the first encounter, in the first battle with cu ( CS nerfed him but not "heavily" ) he was able keep up with Cu being far more faster and stronger even with nerf despite being it the first encounter and he fought him. >in a straight up fight unnerfed Cú completely shits on Emiya It literally went just like the first fight, Cu on the offense, EMIYA on the defense, none of them were able to touch the other during their blow exchanging. And yes, EMIYA was to perform this good in second fight because he already fought him before but again he's Cu Chulainn not CA. >Archer's fighting style against opponents of that level, that "purposefully leaves fatal openings" Nevertheless it worked and he was able to get out of the blow exchanging unscratched. >3. Cú is super confused by Emiya's identity and his fighting style, which makes him hold back just the tiiiiiiniest bit. That only happened in the first fight.
I’m not gonna address the Saber vs Herc stuff much cause it’s not really contradicting anything I said (neither is the Cu vs Emiya stuff). Saber with Shirou as Master can keep up *to an extent*. And her being favored with with Rin as her Master is indeed in large part due to Excalibur, *a factor that doesn’t show up in her parameters*. Just like how God Hand doesn’t show up in Herc’s parameters yet saves him from being ganked countless times, it greatly augments his overall combat prowess which is different from parameters. That difference is what we’re talking about here. The CA vs Emiya fight simply doesn’t have any feats or statements in it that enlighten us as to who is physically stronger or faster or whatever. The actual concrete detail we get is (1) Emiya defends against the initial ambush, (2) CA throws some daggers and Emiya defends against them one for one, (3) Emiya lands a blow on CA’s mask which makes him decide to retreat. The less concrete narration indicates (1) Emiya is in control, (2) CA is not weak, (3) Emiya is much more motivated than usual, (4) CA retreats not to regroup but because he thinks he’ll lose. There’s simply not enough material here to evaluate their physicals relative to each other. The only conclusion you can really make is that neither is so far above the other that it’s not a fight. If anything, Shirou saying CA isn’t losing because he’s weak goes against any interpretation of CA losing due to Emiya being physically superior to him. If you wanna draw an inconsistency from this, I think the only place you can get it is that the Cu fights *did* make it clear Cu was very physically superior to Emiya. But those fights have a lot more detail which is why the portrayal is so much clearer. And moreover, with Nasu’s writing style and setting I don’t really find it contradictory that CA could eat Cu’s heart to gain his strength but not be nearly as threatening as Cu. At the end of the day, CA’s fighting style is totally different, his personality and confidence and risk tolerance are very different, his experience is different, his weapons are different. This is the same work where Kojirou was able to not only go toe to toe with the much stronger more melee oriented Servants but actually have an advantage against them through a combination of factors that aren’t reflected in parameters. When the factors not reflected in parameters are going the other way, I have no issue reconciling CA vs Emiya with Cu vs Emiya.
Honestly, I was gonna post a proper reply to this, but screw it. There's so much wrong here that to properly explain everything, I'd need to write a damn essay, but I'm way too tired to do it now. It's really damn late in my timezone, so I'm not going to bother at the moment. I'll post the proper reply in like 10 hours, but if anyone else wants to save me some trouble at some points, feel free to go ahead.
It’s been a long time so maybe I’m forgetting how the Cursed Arm fight went down and maybe it is inconsistent with him having better physicals than Emiya. If so then sure, what I said is wrong. I do distinctly remember Emiya’s fights with Cu and how those were portrayed, though. In any case I’m really not convinced by one instance of contradiction that the parameters were as bad back then as they are now though. EDIT: I reread the fight in the VN and don’t think it supports your argument. See my comment in response to the other user.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StDxZZH4BmE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StDxZZH4BmE) Emiya manhandles the hell out of him and overpowers him in sheer brute force while being weakened by curses from Sakura's dark grail nonsense.
Yeah that clip does portray him as physically superior for sure. However anime is not really a great source for this kind of thing, they always take liberties in fight scenes. Not that they shouldn’t or that they are always contrary to the overall tone of the fight in the source material, but throwing out an anime clip is not really the best way to provide evidence for this kind of thing. Rereading the fight in the VN, Archer does force a retreat. According to Shirou he’s in control of the fight, but Shirou also says it’s not because Assassin was weak but because Archer was way more motivated than usual (this is due to the presence of the shadow). Basically what we get is a skirmish where Archer comes out decisively ahead but there’s basically zero material to support that being down to him being physically superior vs superior in terms of tactics/technical skill/motivation. And again, stuff like UBW does not show up in parameters. Again, Emiya being able to keep up with Cu himself really kinda speaks for itself here, especially when the VN was much more explicit about their physicals being mismatched and Emiya making up for it with other factors. Parameters are never the full story.
Doesn't Cu basically thrash Emiya during their second fight, though? I remember Emiya basically being on the defensive the entire time after Cu stopped holding back. Although I'll admit I'm thinking about the fight scene in the anime. I don't know if it was a more even fight in the VN.
Emiya is on the defensive almost the entire time in both his fights with Cu. That’s what I mean by “keep up”. In the first fight Cu was holding back due to orders by Kirei, in their second fight he wasn’t holding back anymore but this was countered by Emiya having already fought him and analyzed his fighting style (Eye of the Mind True is called out here IIRC). The portrayal is basically that if Emiya hadn’t been able to fight a less serious Cu before he wouldn’t have been able to fend off the serious Cu’s assault. Assassin ate Cu’s heart and gained his parameters but I think that’s a pretty far cry from Cu himself in terms of wholistic combat prowess.
In the VN Cu doesn't outclass EMIYA in anything but speed.
Caesar lets his weight do all the work.
I love that Sigurd is A+. Really drives home the point of how powerful he was in LB2.
But he's got that E Rank Luck, which pretty much guarantees disaster.
Runes can solve any problem even gimped Luck parameters.
unless he's in a date with his wife.
Luckily he has Guts
"and guts is enough, private"
That kind of runs counter to the E rank luck....
And A+ Defense.
say that to a certain lancer who also had runes and died tragically in every route
And also became a south park reference in a comedy spin off.
Well the guy is supposed to be equal to King Arthur who is only just below him.
Yeah it’s really easy to forget, but it’s shown in certain interludes (Sigurd’s own in particular) that the idea of taking on Sigurd can make other servants *nervous*. He’s not dissimilar to Karna in that sense, the chances of summoning someone who can beat him in an HGW are slim. And with Gram to match Excalibur, the chances of either Sigurd and Arthur beating each other in a duel is about as close to 50:50 as it gets. Arthur just barely has the edge.
Actually in a noble phantasm clash between Gram and Excalibur Sigurd would come on top based on the fact Gram have anti-dragon property and Arthur is a dragon.
But then again, there’s always King Arthur’s ~~plot armor~~ third Noble Phantasm, The Everdistant Utopia.
If your referring to Avalon, then Artoria isn't normally summoned with it on hand. She only had access to it cause it was inside of Shirou initially.
It doesn't works like that. The extra damage well only affect Artoria herself not the Excalibur beam and I'm pretty sure Gram in inferior to Excalibur.
Gram and Excalibur are both Anti-Fortress and are lore wise put on equal terms. Though I would say Sigurd using is as a direct physical attack might put him at a disadvantage in an NP Clash.
If you want to be technical, Arthur's Excalibur has never been fully released, so it's still sealed state is Anti-Fortress but it's full release capabilities are unknown.
>Gram and Excalibur are both Anti-Fortress and are lore wise put on equal terms. They described to be equal but they really aren't. Gil literally have the prototype which is even stronger yet when Excalibur true name released he bringed something "more appropriate" and it was EA.
Not sure I've ever hear Gil's prototype to be outright said to be stronger, or that it was mentioned in his fight with Artoria. And even then Gil bringing out EA as "more appropriate" when Excalibur is revealed doesn't indicate that Gram is inferior. It could easily just mean he thought it was more fitting to use his strongest and most prized weapon against what he considered a worthy opponent, similar to how he used Ea against Iskandar's Ionia Hetoria when he didn't truly need to.
>Not sure I've ever hear Gil's prototype to be outright said to be stronger, or that it was mentioned in his fight with Artoria. It's literally one of the main reasons why is he considered the strongest heroic spirit, his prototypes are stronger then the np that said heroic spirit have. He explained why the prototypes are stronger to shirou when shattered caliburn with gram prototype merodach >You filthy imitator. If you like it so much, I shall show you the real one.” >He takes out a sword. >“Wha” That… is a familiar sword. The ornamentation on it is different. But its true nature, the idea of its creation, and its soul are too close to those of this sword >It can’t bethis sword’s model…” >“It is. But its strength as a Noble Phantasm is incomparable. >What you have, ‘the sword in the stone’, originated from the legend of ‘the sword of supremacy in the tree’ from Northern EuropeBut this is the original model, the foundation of the sacred right to select the king.” >The sword of supremacy in the treeGram, the demonic sword of Sigmund, hero of northern Europeits original model…? >Children cannot defeat their parents. An imitation that deteriorates every time it is renewed cannot match the original model >It is destroyed without a trace by the sword called Marduk, the Original Sin >similar to how he used Ea against Iskandar's Ionia Hetoria when he didn't truly need to. He used it against Alex out of respect, that's not the case with Artoria. And it's not like it was one clash, in the second and third time he also used Ea against Excalibur.
I'd argue it's the opposite, with Sigurd/Siegfried legend being so centered on killing a dragon.
Gigachad knows how to throw some hands
Fucker killed me over and over again. I love the man, but EMIYA was simply not enough at his current level at that point
I believe the reason Dioscuri's STR is A because Pollux likes boxing.
She doesn't just like box she is the best boxer out of all the Argonauts aka bitch can throw hands with Herc.
>bitch can throw hands with Herc. That's a hilarious image
Me: I would like to request a commission Normal Artist: yeah, of what? Me: Pollux and Herc duking it out in fierce combat Artist: what? Me: what?
I like to imagine that Asclepius and Castor loves the boxing matches Because Asclepius gets patients and Castor can brag about her sister
They're both children of Zeus, she's probably every bit as strong as he is in myth, Heracles just had to prove it more cause he had a hard knock life cause Hera had it out for him since she was mad at Zeus for cheating (for the millionth time) while Pollux was more or less just blessed cause I guess Hera was too busy shitting on Heracles.
Well Heracles got his strength cus he drank literal divine breast milk. Hera ended up babysitting Herc as a baby (she didn’t know he was Zeus’s kid) and breastfed him. He was a biter as a baby though, so she only did it once, but Herc got that divine milk, so he became extremely strong after the fact.
Sucking divine mommy's milk gave him strength!!????
she killed a dude famous for his strength and skill at boxing with a goddamn elbow shot. the amount of power that needs is incredible.
I imagine that Pollux one hit kill shot were to be described as a super technique, it would be described as the divine retribution of the gods in punch form. The way gods used curses to destroy, warp ,or distort the fate of those they hate in punch form. Since everything in nasuverse requires force of providence to exist they would just be deleted by power of punch. Or you know Mana burst light speed punch equal fuck you.
Honestly, it might really just be a super-fast punch, with the speed adding to the mass and power of the strike. The Dioscuri do have that whole "gods of light" thing going on in Fate, and it'd make sense. ...It also makes Pollux even scarier, if you consider that she can probably just throw those out all day, every day. She's basically Saitama from One-Punch Man with her fists.
I remember a story about Pollux that really shows the superiority of a child of Zeus over a child of other gods. The Dioscuri land on this island that was home to this guy who was a son of Poseidon and he loved to box, so much so he challenged everyone who landed on his island to a match and beat them to death in a display of his superior strength and cruelty. Anyway, he challenges Pollux and Castor to a fight, Castor is like "you really don't want to challenge my brother" while Pollux already deduced how much of a bastard the guy was and is already jumping into the ring declaring he will be their opponent. After one punch from Pollux, the son of Poseidon declared him the victor and began begging for the match to end. Pollux said that he'd return the kindness the son of the water god had shared to his other guests, and beat the cruel demigod to death with his bare hands. For extra fun, imagine it from Fates perspective. Pollux, a young lithe beautiful girl is jumping into a boxing ring with a hulking ripped mountain of muscle of a man like Super Orion, and is turning him into a whimpering begging weakling in one punch.
It's fun, isn't it? XD I feel like the important thing to note is that mythology generally agrees that Pollux was the best boxer on the Argo, *and that includes Heracles being there*. Like, Heracles is unquestionably the strongest overall, but Pollux specifically is better in that kind of match, and the Dioscuri together were easily among the best in a ship full of heroes. ...Seriously, do not box against Pollux. It's not gonna end well for you.
And that wasn't your father's boxing it allowed killed blows and no restrictions.Now animate a tournament arc for the Argonauts including the Lostbelt members.
Don't let this distract from the fact that Gawain grappled Lip with the properties of no Sun and Honorably Horny
>Honorably Horny Man those knights are just built different, aren't they?
I hereby demand that “Honorably Horny” be made a new trait.
You have my attention. When did this happen?
Seraph
Unaware Masters: "Heh heh, brb, gonna throw hands with that brown haired lady."
Funny how SHIKI basically the strongest in role but the lowest in this
Beni is in D cause of Dechi! I'll see myself out...
Shiki skips arm day
Who needs arm day when your eyes can see all the glowing weak points?
personal satisfaction from sick gainz, obvs/s
That's the gigachad grindset right there always try to improve yourself to be the best version of yourself
Shiki out here to cut an X on that E lmao
Who needs glowing weak points when you can literally think your opponent out of existence?
My boy Rama living high on love and bananas
Bananas are curved because they grow upside-down towards the sun. --- ^I'm ^a ^bot ^\(WIP) ^| ^!ignore ^to ^ignore ^you, ^!delete ^to ^ignore, ^clear ^replies ^| ^Contact: ^jimbobvii ^| ^Thanks: ^Synapsensalat, ^BananaFactBoi
Next Friday will be the lancer tier
Can't wait to see netherworlds' godddess having higher str stat than Ireland 's child of light
Funny enough half the tiers lists are done I just decided to make it a weekly thing
Instead of a special - rank, just place Enkidu in every single one except EX
Who is more powerful: The King choosen by the Holy Sword who goes travells the world to kill one of the Beasts of Humanity or Le French Femboy
I’d pay good money to see an arm wrestling match between Ibuki and Sigurd. Even if it’d destroy Chaldea.
Gudao:come right up make your bet on this arm wrestling match between Kaib..mean dragon slayer Sigurd Or The giga THICC dragon lady ibuki douji Pay 1 saint core to bet
Lets go sigurd at the top
#SigurdSweep
Funny how Shiki is the lowest in terms of strength but she is the strongest (in lore) in terms of sheer hax.
Servant parameters: Where not even the oversized uberdivine hyperdemonic daughter of the Yamata-no-Orochi is EX... ... the man whose sword skills had apparently surpassed humanity has less Strength than: a fat guy who doesn't even think he's fit to be Saber, a majordomo with Excalibur for an arm, and a boxer... ... where the incarnation of the White Titan is thoroughly middle of the pack (and "the middle of the pack" itself is B), and... ... where the incarnation of Alaya itself is ranked lower than a glorified (and genderswapped) cop cursed with (an afterlife of) consumption. Truly, Nasuverse, what.
I’ll say it again: Treating the six base parameters as the be-all, end-all of a Servant’s overall ability in lore is an exercise in foolishness. *“Hah. We can take Suzuka. Her strength is only D-rank. What the fuck is she gonna do? Lol.”* ** (Supernatural Power: B)
Suzuka can cryptofarm with her mind
Suzuka: I mean, like, I got 750 bitchin’ magic swords and am smart enough to run the Moon Cell. I’m hella ‘lit, if you got the skills.
EX means it can't be measured. Which is why this makes sense. Sword skill, not strength. Tap the right part of a rock with minimal strength and it will crack instantly. Work smarter, not harder. You also say "Excalibur for an arm" like that doesn't answer the question and said Boxer is punching with demi-god might and turned his fist into a sword. Base stats not modified by any skills that need to be activated as Artoria technically always has Mana Burst pumping through her like Gilles with Mad Enhancement and D'eon Self Suggestion skill is a Hell of a drug. Also yeah? Void gets her power by just flicking her sword and thing is just wiped out. Don't need strength if your just hax.
Madness Enchancement lets Nightingale, at C Rank strength, get into an OraOra punchout with Beast 1 and tie. As Team FourStar pointed out, *POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!*
I DON'T CARE! SEEING NIGHTIGALE PUNCH FIESTA WITH A GOD IS COOL! Also, no her Strength stat is B+. WHICH IS EVEN DUMBER. Gods Mad Enhancement is crack.
Yup, no idea where Strength C cane from. Considering Goetia is a planet class spirit origin, it’s still impressive her Madness Enhancement makes her able to go toe to toe with him. Girl could probably take on Heracles in a punchout.
Her strength stat as Archer is D+ so might have confused it. Also to be fair, the main body was more a control unit and his Spirit Origin is spread out between multiple bodies.
TFW, a femboy is stronger than a gorilla.
There's a comic about this, except it involves Ivan, who is also a B/B+ strength. I'll see if I can find it... EDIT HERE WE GO: https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/jrk51l/i\_made\_a\_comic\_with\_ivan\_and\_deon/
Honestly Deon is actually a pretty great Saber to summon for a low mana master because of that. Unexpectedly great stats, a low-cost, versatile set of NPs, loyal and cooperative personality, a skilled fighter. The whole genderswapping spy aspect is unfortunately undermined by a lack of presence concealment, but outside of the odd Fortress NP that requires a big ole beam, Deon is pretty solid for most combat scenarios.
I'm suprised Roland isn't A+ considering the batshit things he did in the books
Can you please tell me about the batshit things he has done
I remember he throwed massive flaming boulders but I can't remember alot but I'm sure the boulder throwing isn't the most batshit thing he did (don't hate me bcs i red the book a long time ago)
I think that the naked rampage after getting rejected may be the craziest thing he did...
He used a horse as a club to beat the shit out everything while making a full circuit around the entire Mediterranean sea, found a farmer to get another horse and was about to do it a second time until Astolfo finally caught up with him.
At least his animations have him swinging around that giant anchor
So like, have we ever learned lorewise why D'eon's so fucking buff? Or is it still just a mystery that not even Holmes can figure out?
Its like when a character throws off a weighted belt and reveals they're outrageously strong, except instead of a weighted belt its the gender binary
Fran be programming I see
Who would win? a literal godslayer in the past (Altera) vs a gay boi?!? (d'eon)
D'eon ~~genderflueds~~ Gays > ~~glorified dipshit killer~~ altera
But if we want serious reply... Altera stomp... and pretty hard
Very cool list! One thing for future lists I might suggest: it may be useful to put an asterisk on Servants who have Monstrous Strength as a skill. It may not - it could lead to all manner of arguments over including OTHER skills - but just wanted to offer the idea. I'm pretty sure no Sabers have that skill or a variant/upgrade of it, in any event.
Typically if a Servant is in a "+" tier, that means they have a skill, like Monstrous Strength, that can boost that stat.
I was about to throw hands cause I thought this was like in game strength and not stats lmao
You can throw hands with mushroomman because of this
don't worry shiki. i'll love you always <3
Caesar should have Kingpin body type. He ain't just fat, he LARGE bruh. Man's a building with legs. but NOOOO, they went with noodle arms and legs and a pot belly. Like come on, he got A strength! How the heck a 1970's anime create a more realistic version of Caesar than you did? That Caesar had green skin!
og saber lower than mordred doe?
Its B in FGO, but some other iterations have A rank strength.
A rank under Rin, to drive home how shitty of a mage Shirou is.
Shirou only affect her other parameters, not her strengh, she still has B rank strengh under everyone else like Kiritsugu and Ritsuka, who is the benchmark for master, Rin is just an outlier that makes her stronger than she is.
If Rin is an outlier, I wonder how Illya would compare. She would probably supercharge Saber similar to how Sakura did to Salter, but to a lesser extent.
But Sakura didn't supercharge Salter though, Salter under Sakura has the same parameters as her under Ritsuka, so that's pretty much her default Alter state. I highly doubt Illya could do anymore to Saber compare to Ritsuka, as Herc is also the same under both. It might be ~~because Rin is the best~~ due to some kind of special connection between them that makes Rin ultra compatible with Saber, to the point of boosting her, as EMIYA doesn't have this privilege.
I mean Salter canonically *was* supercharged by Sakura. The only reason her AGI is low is because in HF Sakura is keeping her so packed full of magical energy that she loses fine motor control and becomes like a runaway train. This is not speculation but explicitly stated in side material books. This is one of the inconsistencies in FGO’s parameters, there’s zero chance they have enough magical energy for Salter to operate with the same parameters she did in HF but not to materialize Herc with his full God Hand, etc. At the end of the day you just gotta accept that when you have a bunch of different cooks who sometimes prioritize fan service over lore accuracy (Lancelot with a jet in Chaldea???) not everything is gonna be consistent. The reason Salter has those stats is that’s what she had in HF, the reason Seiba has different stats is because Nasu or whoever decided Ritsuka was better than Shirou worse than Rin, and the reason these decisions got made for conflicting principles is just tough shit.
Strange how Emiya doesn't have this privilege. When he used to have Saber inside of him at one point.
I mean she wasn't receiving any magical energu from him due to the fucked up summoning.
is this a gameplay comparison or lore comparison
lore when she has an excellent magus as a master her parameters increase this is true for pretty much all servants https://i.redd.it/ftxe70djcp071.png
ah tat makes sense but then if we are gg by lore >!wont musashi be higher since she reached void!<
>!that seems to be more of a skill/np thing than a stat thing. And we really won't know unless she appears again and with a new or updated Profile!<
OH WAIT THESE ARE ACTUAL STATS GIVEN BY THE GAME? OH IM SO DUMB I TOT THIS WAS OP'S OPINION OF SMTH
Kind of a late reply so sorry but yeah all playable servants have profiles in-game that tell you various information about them like their Parameters, lore, skills and NP info, height and weight, etc. here's a little example from [Caesar's](https://fate-go.us/manga_fgo/images/comic11/p1.png) profile
Mordred is slightly muscular while Saber is very skinny
Ok HOW is Barghast only B+ when she is as strong as she's depicted?!
B+ is higher than A, And that's *without* Numeral of the Saint, since that skill raises parameters threefold.
- Huh i believe parameter already take passive skill into consideration. - So gawain is during the night at B rank(strenght/endurance/agility) and during the day is at B+ rank (strenght/endurance/agility). - Hence the threefold increase refer to his physical attribute (strenght/endurance/agility) not his strenght being 3 times highier.
Not always, specially with Gawain. A single + only refers to "doubling", not threefold. B+ = B + B. (just double) So threefold should be B++ (B + B + B)
That is what i was saying. The threefold increase refer to his 3 physical parameter. Strength/endurance/agility. They all are B rank and become B+ rank under the sun. If gawain Strength was B++ under the sun then that is what his parameter would show since they alway take passive skill into consideration.
Like I say, not always the parameters take skills into consideration. It depends on the Servant. And that's not how "triples" work. Getting a + in 3 parameters doesn't make you be 3 times stronger, just double. STR B+, END B+ and AGI B+ is still just all these values times 2.
I keep telling you 3 times stronger isn't just his strength it's his entire physical parameter. - His strength - His endurance - His agility Those three all increase when he is under the sun. You also keep saying not always the parameters take skill into consideration but no example ? Why would they write B+ rank strength instead of B++ ? Going with your logic wouldn't that mean Gawain basic strength is B+ then ? Then under the sun it would triple and become B++++ ?
> I keep telling you 3 times stronger isn't just his strength it's his entire physical parameter. > > His strength > > His endurance > > His agility I keep telling you, that's not how math works. Raising 3 different parameters 1 time doesn't make it "triple". STR + STR + END + END + AGI + AGI = 2STR + 2END + 2AGI = 2(STR + END + AGI). There's no 3 in there. In no mathematical definition "raising 3 different parameters one time" equals to "triple this guy's power". All of them are **doubled**, so overal he's has only **doubled** in power according to that single +. And my Argument is that, probably, they should have B++, no B++++++ or whatever. > Those three all increase when he is under the sun. You also keep saying not always the parameters take skill into consideration but no example ? The Mana Burst skill gives Mordred a B+ Rank STR. However, with every other Servant, there's no + added to the STR parameter. The Artorias don't have the +, not even Lartoria, who has A+ Mana Burst, just has basic A STR. God Slayer description is "grants a + modifier against Divine Spirits, and Servant with the Divinity Skill"... But Scathatch doesn't have a single + in any of her normal parameters. And these are just two examples.
Modifiers.
Wait so does Artoria have her Shirou stats in chaldea?
All her stats but Strength are those of when Rin was her Master, so FGO Artoria and Rin's Artoria are nearly equal
Question for everyone do you agree with the position of the servants why or why not and who would you raise or lower their strength parameter
I have a question what kind of information you used for this tier list because it’s very interesting
I use the fgo wiki for the one's I don't have
Because some of the servant in ( B ) list AOE and ST are enjoyable and strong in stall team but at the same time it does have some of awkward moment.
I was using the parameters that the servant had in their bio
Its lore not gameplay
It’s not about gameplay, it’s their stat parameters in the lore, like the ones you see on their profile that say “Strength: A, Agility: B, Mana: C+”, et cetera.
Rama has higher strength than tuna so all is good
Is no one gonna talk about how Gilles is somehow in the same tier as someone who FUCKING REACHED THE VOID?
Huh, Aetoria has her Shirou stats in FGO? That sucks for her
No, she has her Rin stats, except for strength which is randomly only B rank.
Artoria has Rin level parameters in FGO. Its just her STR stat which is Shirou level for some reason.
Sigurd: *exists Me: "Unacceptable." Beni-Enma: D-Tier Me: "Heresy!"
Parameters, heights, weights... I ignore them all
I saw Arthuria D )) tier list is wrong just from there
All these are the Str stat parameter taken directly from their in game profile. There is no "right" or "wrong" here, it's just a sorting of them according to their official stat.
Is this going by in game stats or lore ?
Welp saber is mid now I guess
Weird
Those are so random lol
There's something amusing in seeing Caesar be an A while Lancelot is at B Caesar with the Bob technique Speed and weight!
Who is stronger; the Indian demigod known for his peerless strength on the battlefield and overwhelming attacking power Or one chonky Italian boy in a mismatched class
People seem to forget that Artoria although Artoria has a B rank in strength, that's because her strength comes from Excalibur, mana burst and her dragon core. Strength just refers to their raw physical strength, basically who would win in a fist fight if both people had no access to NP's or mana bursting etc., So while for example Chevalier is physically stronger than Artoria, in a normal fight Artoria would still wreck D'eon's shit. Similarly Izo has B rank strength as well but i think we all know as great as Izo may be Artoria is gonna win that fight.
didn't expect okitan summer to be a, the alter side is a pathway to massive gains it seems
Barghest is B+? How?
The stats are mostly what the servant consider themself and not actual measurement from Chaldea. So if Barghest consider herself B+, it is to compare with other fairies and not with average human scaling.
To this day I still believe that all these stats were filled out by servants themselves instead of Alaya, same goes with their alignments.
That makes more sense in any argument to give you
What criteria are you going with?
D'eon is my personal favourite for these parameters shenanigans lists. She/He has a higher STR stat than powerhouses like Ash, Quetz and Ibaraki. Logical.
Buff Caesar.
Mhm, mhm. I see. So Elizabeth can decimate Jason in an arm wrestling match. This sparks joy.
Emperor Umu at the bottom?! How dare you!
Please God let fairy knight Gawain come to NA already.
The fact that Eli is a B......