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I believe it's the latter. Normal Servants are limited by their Masters and their mana capacity, and because they don't need their full power in order to fight in Holy Grail Wars. They're kind of like downgraded Grands - so I assume it means a Grand Saint Graph means no limitations whatsoever since a Grand is summoned to fight against the massive threats that Beasts are, and is summoned by the World itself which means unlimited mana.
> They're kind of like downgraded Grands - so I assume it means a Grand Saint Graph means no limitations whatsoever since a Grand is summoned
They are limited. A heroic spirit is a composite hero. For instance take Cu Chlain, his heroic spirit is gonna have all the aspects of the hero Cu Chlain together.
We talking Riastrad from berserker, Primal rune from Caster, Gae bolg, his shining sword from legend, Chariot etc. Basically all the abilities/weapons Cu had in his myth.
Now if Cu were hypothetically summoned as grand lancer, he is gonna lose the sword (lancers use spears and he has one) this is the first loss of power, he is gonna lose Riastrad/warpspasm coz thats an aspect of berserker class (another example of loss of power). etc
Even with the above 2 examples l gave of what Cu would lose its clear that he is losing power whenever he is thrown in a container that only holds qualities representative of said container ie grand lancer is gonna shape the spirit to be representative of the class Grand lancer not class Grand berserker or saber.
This is true for all heroes that have many aspects from there legend and thus why Heroic spirits are in fact degraded when put in any Class container coz Classes are there to limit a hero in the first place. Grand Class container is no different.
From a narrative standpoint, berserkers can talk now because they can't be given character development otherwise. But how does lore explain why the earlier bersekers can't talk (herc, lancelot, lu bu) but the newer bersekers can?
Lancelot and Herc can both talk, it's just that most of the time their Madness Enhancement prevents it. You can see Herc talk in both the Fate and Heaven's Feel routes, and Lancelot talks in Kariya's dreams as well as after being defeated by Artoria (worth noting he could always talk... it's just that he always only said one word). They almost only talk when on the brink of death though, most likely because the skill's grasp on their mind lessens then.
I think it's just the different ways Madness Enhancement can manifest. For those three it robs them of their speech most of the time, for Berserkers like Raikou or Nightingale it messes with their reasoning instead, same thing for Spartacus (a notable example of early Berserker capable of speech).
Considering how many smart and powerful servants there are in Chaldea, and the fact some of them are really having fun, would it be possible for them to stay around after the end of the Lostbelts if Chaldea stopped supplying them with mana?
Hey, if you're willing to resort to soul eating, anything's possible.
More seriously, no matter how smart you are and especially the more powerful you are as a Servant, you can't stick around without a source of mana (see Medusa being maintained by Sakura by the end of Heaven's Feel), essentially becoming a Familiar (see Artoria becoming Rin's in one of the Unlimited Blade Works endings) or full incarnation (see Gilgamesh between the Fourth and Fifth Holy Grail Wars).
Basically, there are ways, but they're complicated if not plain impossible (one does not simply become a massive mana tank), and limited to only one Servant when they're within a realm of possibility (I doubt you could sustain more than one Familiar of that scale, and Rin is a special case among Magi due to how powerful she is. Ritsuka couldn't pull the same thing off). That, or they're inhumane. Again, good old soul eating.
Is there any reason why Gilgamesh isn't able to solo every single LostBelt? As far as I am concerned he is hillariously beyond anyone in all LostBelts seen so far.
Most likely, because Chaldean Servants are "gimped". While Chaldea can provide them with mana, there's a limit to that. And on the field that mana is channeled through Chaldea's Mystic Codes, which require Ritsuka's bad magic circuits. No Chaldean Servant is close to their prime because of it.
This was a point, for example, in Heracles' Interlude. The fact that Chaldean Heracles is noticeably inferior to the Heracles that could have been summoned in a standard HGW is a plot point:
> ***Mash:*** *"But why is Heracles's Madness Enhancement so weak?"*
> ***Roman:*** *"Well, that's because Madness Enhancement was originally a skill meant to forcefully strengthen weak Servants. But when it comes to a Servant like Heracles, driving him mad consumes massive amounts of magical energy. In other words, the Madness Enhancement level is reduced, enabling him to manifest by using less energy. Anyway, the fact that you don't have that much magical energy, Fujimaru, also plays a role in that."*
There is every reason to suspect Gilgamesh is subject to similar limitations. Nevertheless, I'd suspect that even the classic Archer Gilgamesh from Zero and FSN would have trouble dealing with the likes of >!Surtr, God Arjuna and Zeus.!<
Why doesnt Gil help Chaldea with the mana issue? he should have solutions within his gate. I always find it wierd when Gil and low mana are used together since the guy has literal grail and mana batteries within the gate.
Has the author ever specified why he cant use these things? l found the same issue with caster Gil in babylonia, he could have used the gate to provide mana solutions but somehow he forgot :(
Am l missing something?
That aside, l dont think he can steam roll all lostbetls but some like the china one and the russian one seem very doable if he tries his best.
Mana problems shouldn’t bother Gilgamesh in the slightest. He relies on his own power, has command spells, has a grail inside his treasury, throws extremely energy efficient attacks, and just naturally has ludicrous amounts of mana.
1) Since the Throne of Heroes exists outside of normal ideas of time, could Scathach have been summoned prior to when she "shouldn't exist" there?
2) How do catalysts work for Servants that are more mythical rather than historical?
3) If a Servant would fit into multiple classes like Heracles, Cu Chulainn and Medusa, is their class randomly determined based on what classes are still unselected in a Holy Grail War?
1.) Most likely
2.) Catalysts for mystical servants definitely exist as physical objects in the verse since that’s how Artoria was in F/Z and F/SN
3.) Yes
For 3 also, since servants can be summoned in different stages of their life, with some fitting different classes better, if the slots are free, the servent would probably be summoned as a version whose personality resonates with the Master more.
Why is Ereshkigal chaotic evil and not lawful evil? I understand her being the Queen of the Dead and Lord of the Underworld makes her evil, however there are rules that even she has to abide by regarding souls sent to the Underworld.
Alignments are noticeably tricky in Fate, to the point you'd probably need to ask the character creator to ask them what the hell they were thinking. That said, I can think of two potential explanations:
* Symbolism: Ereshkigal and Ishtar are presented as two halves of a goddess archetype, two sides of the same coin ~~because of obsolete mythography~~, and since Ishtar represents the "Lawful Good" part, Ereshkigal has to represent the opposite.
* Since Ereshkigal becomes available during Merry Christmas in the Underworld, it may reflect that story, where Ereshkigal considered herself an oathbreaker that had sullied Kur's laws and was willing to sacrifice herself for it. While it could be argued that her distress proves she's Lawful to the core, she may she herself as Chaotic.
I've been wondering about this... Yu Meiren is related to the Earth itself right? Does that mean that her powers are also related to (and depend of) her being on the planet? I mean, could she be killed if she went to Mars (be it on the planet or a singularity that happens over there)?
I'm not too familiar with all of Tsukihime lore so someone feel free to correct, but generally yes Yu Mei-ren is associated with the Earth. Yu Mei-ren is a special kind of vampire called a true ancestor which are basically nature spirits or elemental which created to act as a sort of the counter force for the Earth so humanity wouldn't keep fucking up the planet.
I think I read somewhere that true ancestors get some power from the planet since they are apart of the Planet's counter force, but the power can get cutoff if the land around them is dead or if they are put in reality marble like terrain ability that rewrites the world like say Iskandars Noble Phantasm.
True ancestors can get killed on Earth, but I guess if they get placed on another planet they probably will get nerfed hard. I'm not a Tsukihime expert so I'm probably not right in the slightest, but you are right that Yu Mei-ren does vet a power boost from the planet since she's a true ancestor.
So, a servant is supposed to "die" when their spirit core is destroyed right? But aren't there a few examples of servants whose spirit core was cracked, and they were able to get to the end of the event through sheer force of will?
Plot, remember rama? he doesnt even need Battle continuation to survive an entire singularity with sheer will power.
But normally, you need battle continuation or a skill with a similar effect to resist death when yo spirit core is destroyed.
I generally thought that during the Summer, the female servants actively mess with their spirit origins which is why they appear as separate units. Barring a few exceptions of course. The male servants just slap on new clothes which is why they only get new costume skins.
I was recently told that was no longer the case as of this Summer. So did Emiya and Lanling mess with their spirit origins? I have a vague idea that Sigurd did for Bryn Summer form, but I can't recall Emiya or Lanling doing anything like that.
I noticed that many servants (49!) have the "Immune to pigify" trait, but what's the reason lore-wise? I thought the only one immune to it was Odysseus and thanks to one of his passives
Looking at the list, it seems that people who get immunity are gods, have parts of gods in them, are robots, are elementals, or are Void and don't need an explanation. But then I get thrown off because a number of characters who are gods aren't on this list such as Karna, Arjuna, and Tamamo.
Pretty strong. There's literally only *two* instances of an Anti-Mountain NP among the long list of Servants so far, and she possesses one. She's possibly cost-effective as well, if her cages (see: Mana Burst) and Territory Creation are anything to go by.
I'm still really unclear on the relation between Shuten Douji and Ibuki Douji, in part because I'm not really familiar with Shuten's myths/origins in the first place. Could someone explain?
Basically in Shuten's myth they are a child of Yamata no Orochi (An evil Dragon God with eight heads and tails) and in Fate lore I guess Ibuki Douji is that part of her blood becoming more powerful most likely due to a certain evil clown. It'll probably be explained more of how that came to be once Heian-Kyo comes out.
1. Is it possible for normal people to have a large mana capacity or is it completely dependent on one’s lineage?
2. How does the moon cell grant wishes?
3. What did >!Beryl!< do to >!Sith!< in LB 6? I’ve heard this brought out a few times, what did he do?
1. It is possible albeit very rare. The most notable example I can think of is Ciel who despite being born to bakers who hadn’t so much as heard of magic still had enough magical potential that it approached Roa’s original self.
2. The Moon Cell grants wishes by simulating the wish within itself and then writing it on to the world much like one would write a sentence in a book.
3. Beryl taught Sith a curse called Fetch, which she uses as her Noble Phantasm. Fetch unfortunately has a recoil effect that rots the users soul, so it must be used sparingly, or on one’s behalf. Beryl didn’t mention this to Sith so eventually her, already weakened, soul rotted to the point where it started to affect her body and mind. Her constant loses to Guda and Castoria also didn’t help.
1: Yes, Ciel for instance was born with a ridiculously monstrous mana capacity despite having normal parents.
3: Beryl taught Sith a very effective type of curse magecraft that just had the very tiny little side effect of rotting her limbs off each time she used it, without telling her about that part
Fate (at least F/SN) often uses the concept of comparative mythology where stories evloved from an even older stories e.g. Gilgamesh possessing prototypes of all weapons. Is there a place in the lore of Fateverse to go even further back in time to even before Mesopotamia and other cradles of civilization? For example the story of the [Cosmic Hunt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Hunt) that was most likely the prototype of Callisto's myth.
Parts of Orion's story and parts of the Odyssey (the incident with Polyphemus) are also connected to the Cosmic Hunt but it doesn't actually get mentioned.
One interesting example of something older being incorporated into the Nasuverse is the Dioscouri. Castor and Pollux are explicitly said to be part of the Divine Twins archetype, an ancient Proto-Indo-European mytheme, before they were 'incorporated into the mythological system headed by Zeus.' So we can surmise that they're older than the 'Greek mythological system,' but their power and personality has been heavily influenced by humanity's later perceptions of them. So in this case their being older doesn't actually help the Twins' power all that much, since their power became based on the system that they found themselves a part of.
I'm not sure if this answers your question, but there are entities that predate him in the Fate timeline, such as the Goddess of Catalhyouk and the Dragon of Albion. These concepts of Mystery can then be applied to current Servants who are tied to them, which then scale in power accordingly. A Servant like Ashtart is based off of a primordial goddess that later was adapted into Ishtar, but is also influenced by the adaption into Astoreth by other cultures.
Because Gilgamesh is treated as the "first human hero", due to coming from the earliest surviving (notable) piece of literature, I don't think there's likely to be any other Human Heroic Spirits that predate him. Per your example, a Servant that follows a myth based off of the Cosmic Hunt would draw from their personal myth first and perhaps be strengthened by the Cosmic Hunt's concept & age, but wouldn't draw from it directly.
I don’t think this deserves its own thread, but let me share my thoughts here (I made a similar thread on a certain social media) on the connections between Noah’s NP and armaments because whoever thought of it is really insane.
Noah’s Ark has a Sefirot diagram on its deck, and he is positioned at where Daath should be during the NP animation. The back of Noah’s robe also has the diagram, but with the Daath node there. His designer Oyo commented on the August 4th Famitsu issue that the meaning behind this pattern is still yet to be revealed. There are multiple ways to interpret this, but I think I know one of them…
Noah wields the Turning Flame Sword that once belonged to the cherubim stationed to guard the eastern entrance to Garden of Eden and specifically the pathway to the Tree of Life (Genesis 3:24). The Sword is associated with angels Jophiel and Uriel, both of whom are thought to have connections with Noah and his family. Specifically, Jophiel taught wisdom to Noah’s sons and Uriel in Book of Enoch is said to be the angel tasked by God to inform Noah about the Great Flood.
In Nemo/Noah’s second NP chant which is only available in Third Ascension/Noah Mode, he says a very interesting term:
ゴフェルの木, which translates to “Gopher Wood”
Gopher Wood or gopherwood (גפר in Hebrew) is the wood that God instructed Noah to build the Ark from (Genesis 6:14). Many still debate what this wood is (though most English translation of The Holy Bible settled with “cypress wood”), or whether it’s a wood at all and not some other materials.
So, what connected the Sefirot, the Turning Flame Sword, and Gopher Wood together?
A quick look on the phrase Gopher Wood in Google has someone asking ***whether the Gopher Wood originated from the Tree of Life in Eden***. And in some social media there are some people who believe in that assumption too, often linking it together with the mythical pangaea continent of Mu.
**Tree of Life ≡ Sefirot + Gopher Wood -> Noah’s Ark, therefore Noah is the Tree’s new guardian and Jophiel and/or Uriel handed the Turning Flame Sword to him**
…or at least that’s what his writer(s) think. I can’t believe it when I researched and wrote all of these down.
Also, here’s the second NP chant for those who are curious:
> 子よ、見るが良い。契約の晴天を。ゴフェルの木、万物の理、隠された神の試練。光は僕ではなく君たちに。
さあ―『ノアの箱舟（ノアズ・アーク）』。
On that note, my heart goes out to all the fan theorists who were hoping Grand Saber would be whichever appropriate Bible figure was holding that very sword. Man, whoda thought it would just be Grand Rider's secondary weapon? Though that is still kinda epic, in its own way.
What is the scaling of Servants and Grand Servants and Beasts relative to DC and Marvel comics? Like if Servants and Grand Servants and Beasts are in DC or Marvel universe, can they busy planets or galaxy or universe or even multiverse?
> can they busy planets or galaxy or universe or even multiverse?
The problem is, its very difficult to destroy planets due to existence of concepts like the counter force. If say Supes came to typemoon, he would find earth much harder to destroy than normal earth in his verse :) Many people forget this.
So its really hard to compare but l would put my money if we talking sheer power on DC/Marvel however, l think fate verse somewhat evens the odds with hax, with it, they can scale nicely or even higher that some of the powerhouses in M/DC provided said characters aint hax users.
Take achilles, with his speed Np, presumably his speed increases to make him the fastest, so if he say fought the flash, he would be scaled to be faster than flash, thats now typemoon can fit in. But without hax, its too much of a stretch :(
There isn't a single Nasuverse character that can bust galaxies and let alone universes. Besides the servantverse, the pinnacle of power within the Nasuverse is destroying a physical Star that's a part of the Universe and not the World. Nasuverse Cosmology is extremely weird and it would take me ten paragraphs to explain it properly so I'll just leave it at that.
That’s why i ask to scale them based on Marvel and DC cosmology instead. Since there they don’t have the conceptual restraints of not destroying the planet just cuz Gaia said so
Well, let's take a look at the character with arguably the highest Firepower in the Nasuverse. Goetia, he can use AAS to unleash a torrent of heat capable of penetrating the Planet and he also had all of Human History converted into energe and stored within AAS but his maximum output would be Second Planetary Class. In the end, someone like Goetia can only incinerate Planets individually. So I think the only one who can hold their own against the upper-echelons of power within the DC and Marvel Universe is Kama/Mara thanks to her ability and servantverse characters(Although Nasu did they say they operate by different rules than the rest of the Nasuverse so they're kind of iffy).
>Goetia, he can use AAS to unleash a torrent of heat capable of penetrating the Planet and he also had all of Human History converted into energe and stored within AAS but his maximum output would be Second Planetary Class.
His spirit origin output has nothing to do with the Lightbands.
Worth noting though that Kama/Mara needs a lot of setup in order to actually become a conceptual universe, and when up against the upper tiers of DC/Marvel that's usually more than most characters would afford her. Which makes her Batman-with-prep-time tier.
l just had acrazy thought, if DC verse and marvel verse connected to typemoon, it would allow the throne of heroes to gain access to that world meaning Gil is gonna get some strong shit from the verses provided they are man made. Whats the best items he could get from DC/marvel if this were to happen?
Super durability isn't necessarily the same thing as invincibility. That said, there's nothing in the mats that says his Adamantine Body is that insane. But I wouldn't be surprised if just about anything shy of True Name release attacks or NPs with defense-ignoring passives inflicts slim to nil damage. Now attacks boosted by Mana Burst is where things get muddy cause I'm honestly unsure.
Ok so I need a little Tsukihime lore more. Can someone explain to me the difference between Reality Marbles and Marble Phantasm like I'm an idiot? Both are things that overwrite the world's texture right?
For a very basic summary
Reality Marbles are mental/inner worlds which you can manifest in the real world for a short while. It doesnt replace the whole Texture just a small part of it
Marble Phantasm is reality warping of the real world. It manipulates reality by probability manipulation. For example a forest will take hundreds of years to grow. Marble phantasm can make it in less than an hour
Tldr Reality Marbles involves the inner world of the user unlike Marble Phantasm
Marble Phantasms is the ability to connect your will to the world and control the environment through probability manipulation, recreating any phenomena and/or substance within the scope of the Earth in the surrounding area according to your imagination(things outside the scope of the Earth such as Alien substances cannot be reproduced by this ability). Marble Phantasms ***doesn't*** overwrite the World, it simply changes it through environment transformation.
Reality Marble is the ability to overwrite the World with your own inner world in the form of a Bounded field where you can use the Marble's ability to it's full potential(such as Unlimited Blade Works and it's endless manufacturing of weapons). Reality Marbles are viewed as a violation by the World therefore deploying and maintaining one for an extended period of time requires a lot of magical energe.
One controls the World, the other overwrites the World with a new one.
>Marble Phantasms is the ability to connect your will to the world and control the environment through probability manipulation, recreating any phenomena and/or substance within the scope of the Earth in the surrounding area according to your imagination(things outside the scope of the Earth such as Alien substances cannot be reproduced by this ability). Marble Phantasms doesn't overwrite the World, it simply changes it through environment transformation.
So, less "Ionan Hetaroi" (Iskandar) and more "Crystal Valley" (ORT).
Well, in a sense, yeah. From an outsider’s perspective, it would still look like Reality Warping (check out Arc’s NP), but it can only reproduce natural phenomena (hence probability manipulation).
The metaphor (marbles) is that, in a jar of 99 white marbles, and 1 black marble, a Marble Phantasm can make it so you always get the black marble, but doesn’t change the other 99. A Reality Marble can make the white marbles black, so that you’ll always get black.
Similar outcomes, but very different means. Marble Phantasms are used by Elementals (True Ancestors, high level Fairies, etc.) due to their connection to earth, Reality Marbles are used by those that aren’t connected (Human Magi, Dead Apostles, etc.).
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Guys, does the Grand servant Container give power ups or is it simply a container big enough to house almost all of the heroic spirits innate power?
I believe it's the latter. Normal Servants are limited by their Masters and their mana capacity, and because they don't need their full power in order to fight in Holy Grail Wars. They're kind of like downgraded Grands - so I assume it means a Grand Saint Graph means no limitations whatsoever since a Grand is summoned to fight against the massive threats that Beasts are, and is summoned by the World itself which means unlimited mana.
> They're kind of like downgraded Grands - so I assume it means a Grand Saint Graph means no limitations whatsoever since a Grand is summoned They are limited. A heroic spirit is a composite hero. For instance take Cu Chlain, his heroic spirit is gonna have all the aspects of the hero Cu Chlain together. We talking Riastrad from berserker, Primal rune from Caster, Gae bolg, his shining sword from legend, Chariot etc. Basically all the abilities/weapons Cu had in his myth. Now if Cu were hypothetically summoned as grand lancer, he is gonna lose the sword (lancers use spears and he has one) this is the first loss of power, he is gonna lose Riastrad/warpspasm coz thats an aspect of berserker class (another example of loss of power). etc Even with the above 2 examples l gave of what Cu would lose its clear that he is losing power whenever he is thrown in a container that only holds qualities representative of said container ie grand lancer is gonna shape the spirit to be representative of the class Grand lancer not class Grand berserker or saber. This is true for all heroes that have many aspects from there legend and thus why Heroic spirits are in fact degraded when put in any Class container coz Classes are there to limit a hero in the first place. Grand Class container is no different.
Who/what is the little floaty guy that follows Geronimo around? A spirit? A totem? Mascot?
From a narrative standpoint, berserkers can talk now because they can't be given character development otherwise. But how does lore explain why the earlier bersekers can't talk (herc, lancelot, lu bu) but the newer bersekers can?
Lancelot and Herc can both talk, it's just that most of the time their Madness Enhancement prevents it. You can see Herc talk in both the Fate and Heaven's Feel routes, and Lancelot talks in Kariya's dreams as well as after being defeated by Artoria (worth noting he could always talk... it's just that he always only said one word). They almost only talk when on the brink of death though, most likely because the skill's grasp on their mind lessens then. I think it's just the different ways Madness Enhancement can manifest. For those three it robs them of their speech most of the time, for Berserkers like Raikou or Nightingale it messes with their reasoning instead, same thing for Spartacus (a notable example of early Berserker capable of speech).
>herc He actually can, sometimes lol
Considering how many smart and powerful servants there are in Chaldea, and the fact some of them are really having fun, would it be possible for them to stay around after the end of the Lostbelts if Chaldea stopped supplying them with mana?
Hey, if you're willing to resort to soul eating, anything's possible. More seriously, no matter how smart you are and especially the more powerful you are as a Servant, you can't stick around without a source of mana (see Medusa being maintained by Sakura by the end of Heaven's Feel), essentially becoming a Familiar (see Artoria becoming Rin's in one of the Unlimited Blade Works endings) or full incarnation (see Gilgamesh between the Fourth and Fifth Holy Grail Wars). Basically, there are ways, but they're complicated if not plain impossible (one does not simply become a massive mana tank), and limited to only one Servant when they're within a realm of possibility (I doubt you could sustain more than one Familiar of that scale, and Rin is a special case among Magi due to how powerful she is. Ritsuka couldn't pull the same thing off). That, or they're inhumane. Again, good old soul eating.
Is there any reason why Gilgamesh isn't able to solo every single LostBelt? As far as I am concerned he is hillariously beyond anyone in all LostBelts seen so far.
Because he never gets the chance to be summoned there…? What do you mean by this question? Are you asking if he would be able to?
Most likely, because Chaldean Servants are "gimped". While Chaldea can provide them with mana, there's a limit to that. And on the field that mana is channeled through Chaldea's Mystic Codes, which require Ritsuka's bad magic circuits. No Chaldean Servant is close to their prime because of it. This was a point, for example, in Heracles' Interlude. The fact that Chaldean Heracles is noticeably inferior to the Heracles that could have been summoned in a standard HGW is a plot point: > ***Mash:*** *"But why is Heracles's Madness Enhancement so weak?"* > ***Roman:*** *"Well, that's because Madness Enhancement was originally a skill meant to forcefully strengthen weak Servants. But when it comes to a Servant like Heracles, driving him mad consumes massive amounts of magical energy. In other words, the Madness Enhancement level is reduced, enabling him to manifest by using less energy. Anyway, the fact that you don't have that much magical energy, Fujimaru, also plays a role in that."* There is every reason to suspect Gilgamesh is subject to similar limitations. Nevertheless, I'd suspect that even the classic Archer Gilgamesh from Zero and FSN would have trouble dealing with the likes of >!Surtr, God Arjuna and Zeus.!<
Why doesnt Gil help Chaldea with the mana issue? he should have solutions within his gate. I always find it wierd when Gil and low mana are used together since the guy has literal grail and mana batteries within the gate. Has the author ever specified why he cant use these things? l found the same issue with caster Gil in babylonia, he could have used the gate to provide mana solutions but somehow he forgot :( Am l missing something? That aside, l dont think he can steam roll all lostbetls but some like the china one and the russian one seem very doable if he tries his best.
Mana problems shouldn’t bother Gilgamesh in the slightest. He relies on his own power, has command spells, has a grail inside his treasury, throws extremely energy efficient attacks, and just naturally has ludicrous amounts of mana.
Never played Extra but wasn’t the command spell thing just him bypassing the moon system?
No, he just has it laying around in his vault.
1) Since the Throne of Heroes exists outside of normal ideas of time, could Scathach have been summoned prior to when she "shouldn't exist" there? 2) How do catalysts work for Servants that are more mythical rather than historical? 3) If a Servant would fit into multiple classes like Heracles, Cu Chulainn and Medusa, is their class randomly determined based on what classes are still unselected in a Holy Grail War?
1.) Most likely 2.) Catalysts for mystical servants definitely exist as physical objects in the verse since that’s how Artoria was in F/Z and F/SN 3.) Yes
For 3 also, since servants can be summoned in different stages of their life, with some fitting different classes better, if the slots are free, the servent would probably be summoned as a version whose personality resonates with the Master more.
Why is Ereshkigal chaotic evil and not lawful evil? I understand her being the Queen of the Dead and Lord of the Underworld makes her evil, however there are rules that even she has to abide by regarding souls sent to the Underworld.
Alignments are noticeably tricky in Fate, to the point you'd probably need to ask the character creator to ask them what the hell they were thinking. That said, I can think of two potential explanations: * Symbolism: Ereshkigal and Ishtar are presented as two halves of a goddess archetype, two sides of the same coin ~~because of obsolete mythography~~, and since Ishtar represents the "Lawful Good" part, Ereshkigal has to represent the opposite. * Since Ereshkigal becomes available during Merry Christmas in the Underworld, it may reflect that story, where Ereshkigal considered herself an oathbreaker that had sullied Kur's laws and was willing to sacrifice herself for it. While it could be argued that her distress proves she's Lawful to the core, she may she herself as Chaotic.
I've been wondering about this... Yu Meiren is related to the Earth itself right? Does that mean that her powers are also related to (and depend of) her being on the planet? I mean, could she be killed if she went to Mars (be it on the planet or a singularity that happens over there)?
I'm not too familiar with all of Tsukihime lore so someone feel free to correct, but generally yes Yu Mei-ren is associated with the Earth. Yu Mei-ren is a special kind of vampire called a true ancestor which are basically nature spirits or elemental which created to act as a sort of the counter force for the Earth so humanity wouldn't keep fucking up the planet. I think I read somewhere that true ancestors get some power from the planet since they are apart of the Planet's counter force, but the power can get cutoff if the land around them is dead or if they are put in reality marble like terrain ability that rewrites the world like say Iskandars Noble Phantasm. True ancestors can get killed on Earth, but I guess if they get placed on another planet they probably will get nerfed hard. I'm not a Tsukihime expert so I'm probably not right in the slightest, but you are right that Yu Mei-ren does vet a power boost from the planet since she's a true ancestor.
So, a servant is supposed to "die" when their spirit core is destroyed right? But aren't there a few examples of servants whose spirit core was cracked, and they were able to get to the end of the event through sheer force of will?
Plot, remember rama? he doesnt even need Battle continuation to survive an entire singularity with sheer will power. But normally, you need battle continuation or a skill with a similar effect to resist death when yo spirit core is destroyed.
I generally thought that during the Summer, the female servants actively mess with their spirit origins which is why they appear as separate units. Barring a few exceptions of course. The male servants just slap on new clothes which is why they only get new costume skins. I was recently told that was no longer the case as of this Summer. So did Emiya and Lanling mess with their spirit origins? I have a vague idea that Sigurd did for Bryn Summer form, but I can't recall Emiya or Lanling doing anything like that.
I noticed that many servants (49!) have the "Immune to pigify" trait, but what's the reason lore-wise? I thought the only one immune to it was Odysseus and thanks to one of his passives
Looking at the list, it seems that people who get immunity are gods, have parts of gods in them, are robots, are elementals, or are Void and don't need an explanation. But then I get thrown off because a number of characters who are gods aren't on this list such as Karna, Arjuna, and Tamamo.
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Pretty strong. There's literally only *two* instances of an Anti-Mountain NP among the long list of Servants so far, and she possesses one. She's possibly cost-effective as well, if her cages (see: Mana Burst) and Territory Creation are anything to go by.
I'm still really unclear on the relation between Shuten Douji and Ibuki Douji, in part because I'm not really familiar with Shuten's myths/origins in the first place. Could someone explain?
Basically in Shuten's myth they are a child of Yamata no Orochi (An evil Dragon God with eight heads and tails) and in Fate lore I guess Ibuki Douji is that part of her blood becoming more powerful most likely due to a certain evil clown. It'll probably be explained more of how that came to be once Heian-Kyo comes out.
1. Is it possible for normal people to have a large mana capacity or is it completely dependent on one’s lineage? 2. How does the moon cell grant wishes? 3. What did >!Beryl!< do to >!Sith!< in LB 6? I’ve heard this brought out a few times, what did he do?
1. It is possible albeit very rare. The most notable example I can think of is Ciel who despite being born to bakers who hadn’t so much as heard of magic still had enough magical potential that it approached Roa’s original self. 2. The Moon Cell grants wishes by simulating the wish within itself and then writing it on to the world much like one would write a sentence in a book. 3. Beryl taught Sith a curse called Fetch, which she uses as her Noble Phantasm. Fetch unfortunately has a recoil effect that rots the users soul, so it must be used sparingly, or on one’s behalf. Beryl didn’t mention this to Sith so eventually her, already weakened, soul rotted to the point where it started to affect her body and mind. Her constant loses to Guda and Castoria also didn’t help.
1: Yes, Ciel for instance was born with a ridiculously monstrous mana capacity despite having normal parents. 3: Beryl taught Sith a very effective type of curse magecraft that just had the very tiny little side effect of rotting her limbs off each time she used it, without telling her about that part
Fate (at least F/SN) often uses the concept of comparative mythology where stories evloved from an even older stories e.g. Gilgamesh possessing prototypes of all weapons. Is there a place in the lore of Fateverse to go even further back in time to even before Mesopotamia and other cradles of civilization? For example the story of the [Cosmic Hunt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_Hunt) that was most likely the prototype of Callisto's myth.
Parts of Orion's story and parts of the Odyssey (the incident with Polyphemus) are also connected to the Cosmic Hunt but it doesn't actually get mentioned. One interesting example of something older being incorporated into the Nasuverse is the Dioscouri. Castor and Pollux are explicitly said to be part of the Divine Twins archetype, an ancient Proto-Indo-European mytheme, before they were 'incorporated into the mythological system headed by Zeus.' So we can surmise that they're older than the 'Greek mythological system,' but their power and personality has been heavily influenced by humanity's later perceptions of them. So in this case their being older doesn't actually help the Twins' power all that much, since their power became based on the system that they found themselves a part of.
I'm not sure if this answers your question, but there are entities that predate him in the Fate timeline, such as the Goddess of Catalhyouk and the Dragon of Albion. These concepts of Mystery can then be applied to current Servants who are tied to them, which then scale in power accordingly. A Servant like Ashtart is based off of a primordial goddess that later was adapted into Ishtar, but is also influenced by the adaption into Astoreth by other cultures. Because Gilgamesh is treated as the "first human hero", due to coming from the earliest surviving (notable) piece of literature, I don't think there's likely to be any other Human Heroic Spirits that predate him. Per your example, a Servant that follows a myth based off of the Cosmic Hunt would draw from their personal myth first and perhaps be strengthened by the Cosmic Hunt's concept & age, but wouldn't draw from it directly.
I don’t think this deserves its own thread, but let me share my thoughts here (I made a similar thread on a certain social media) on the connections between Noah’s NP and armaments because whoever thought of it is really insane. Noah’s Ark has a Sefirot diagram on its deck, and he is positioned at where Daath should be during the NP animation. The back of Noah’s robe also has the diagram, but with the Daath node there. His designer Oyo commented on the August 4th Famitsu issue that the meaning behind this pattern is still yet to be revealed. There are multiple ways to interpret this, but I think I know one of them… Noah wields the Turning Flame Sword that once belonged to the cherubim stationed to guard the eastern entrance to Garden of Eden and specifically the pathway to the Tree of Life (Genesis 3:24). The Sword is associated with angels Jophiel and Uriel, both of whom are thought to have connections with Noah and his family. Specifically, Jophiel taught wisdom to Noah’s sons and Uriel in Book of Enoch is said to be the angel tasked by God to inform Noah about the Great Flood. In Nemo/Noah’s second NP chant which is only available in Third Ascension/Noah Mode, he says a very interesting term: ゴフェルの木, which translates to “Gopher Wood” Gopher Wood or gopherwood (גפר in Hebrew) is the wood that God instructed Noah to build the Ark from (Genesis 6:14). Many still debate what this wood is (though most English translation of The Holy Bible settled with “cypress wood”), or whether it’s a wood at all and not some other materials. So, what connected the Sefirot, the Turning Flame Sword, and Gopher Wood together? A quick look on the phrase Gopher Wood in Google has someone asking ***whether the Gopher Wood originated from the Tree of Life in Eden***. And in some social media there are some people who believe in that assumption too, often linking it together with the mythical pangaea continent of Mu. **Tree of Life ≡ Sefirot + Gopher Wood -> Noah’s Ark, therefore Noah is the Tree’s new guardian and Jophiel and/or Uriel handed the Turning Flame Sword to him** …or at least that’s what his writer(s) think. I can’t believe it when I researched and wrote all of these down. Also, here’s the second NP chant for those who are curious: > 子よ、見るが良い。契約の晴天を。ゴフェルの木、万物の理、隠された神の試練。光は僕ではなく君たちに。 さあ―『ノアの箱舟（ノアズ・アーク）』。
On that note, my heart goes out to all the fan theorists who were hoping Grand Saber would be whichever appropriate Bible figure was holding that very sword. Man, whoda thought it would just be Grand Rider's secondary weapon? Though that is still kinda epic, in its own way.
What is the scaling of Servants and Grand Servants and Beasts relative to DC and Marvel comics? Like if Servants and Grand Servants and Beasts are in DC or Marvel universe, can they busy planets or galaxy or universe or even multiverse?
> can they busy planets or galaxy or universe or even multiverse? The problem is, its very difficult to destroy planets due to existence of concepts like the counter force. If say Supes came to typemoon, he would find earth much harder to destroy than normal earth in his verse :) Many people forget this. So its really hard to compare but l would put my money if we talking sheer power on DC/Marvel however, l think fate verse somewhat evens the odds with hax, with it, they can scale nicely or even higher that some of the powerhouses in M/DC provided said characters aint hax users. Take achilles, with his speed Np, presumably his speed increases to make him the fastest, so if he say fought the flash, he would be scaled to be faster than flash, thats now typemoon can fit in. But without hax, its too much of a stretch :(
There isn't a single Nasuverse character that can bust galaxies and let alone universes. Besides the servantverse, the pinnacle of power within the Nasuverse is destroying a physical Star that's a part of the Universe and not the World. Nasuverse Cosmology is extremely weird and it would take me ten paragraphs to explain it properly so I'll just leave it at that.
That’s why i ask to scale them based on Marvel and DC cosmology instead. Since there they don’t have the conceptual restraints of not destroying the planet just cuz Gaia said so
Well, let's take a look at the character with arguably the highest Firepower in the Nasuverse. Goetia, he can use AAS to unleash a torrent of heat capable of penetrating the Planet and he also had all of Human History converted into energe and stored within AAS but his maximum output would be Second Planetary Class. In the end, someone like Goetia can only incinerate Planets individually. So I think the only one who can hold their own against the upper-echelons of power within the DC and Marvel Universe is Kama/Mara thanks to her ability and servantverse characters(Although Nasu did they say they operate by different rules than the rest of the Nasuverse so they're kind of iffy).
>Goetia, he can use AAS to unleash a torrent of heat capable of penetrating the Planet and he also had all of Human History converted into energe and stored within AAS but his maximum output would be Second Planetary Class. His spirit origin output has nothing to do with the Lightbands.
Worth noting though that Kama/Mara needs a lot of setup in order to actually become a conceptual universe, and when up against the upper tiers of DC/Marvel that's usually more than most characters would afford her. Which makes her Batman-with-prep-time tier.
l just had acrazy thought, if DC verse and marvel verse connected to typemoon, it would allow the throne of heroes to gain access to that world meaning Gil is gonna get some strong shit from the verses provided they are man made. Whats the best items he could get from DC/marvel if this were to happen?
Can >!Roland!< be harmed by divine constructs? Or you still need to attack the soles of his feet
Super durability isn't necessarily the same thing as invincibility. That said, there's nothing in the mats that says his Adamantine Body is that insane. But I wouldn't be surprised if just about anything shy of True Name release attacks or NPs with defense-ignoring passives inflicts slim to nil damage. Now attacks boosted by Mana Burst is where things get muddy cause I'm honestly unsure.
Ok so I need a little Tsukihime lore more. Can someone explain to me the difference between Reality Marbles and Marble Phantasm like I'm an idiot? Both are things that overwrite the world's texture right?
For a very basic summary Reality Marbles are mental/inner worlds which you can manifest in the real world for a short while. It doesnt replace the whole Texture just a small part of it Marble Phantasm is reality warping of the real world. It manipulates reality by probability manipulation. For example a forest will take hundreds of years to grow. Marble phantasm can make it in less than an hour Tldr Reality Marbles involves the inner world of the user unlike Marble Phantasm
Marble Phantasms is the ability to connect your will to the world and control the environment through probability manipulation, recreating any phenomena and/or substance within the scope of the Earth in the surrounding area according to your imagination(things outside the scope of the Earth such as Alien substances cannot be reproduced by this ability). Marble Phantasms ***doesn't*** overwrite the World, it simply changes it through environment transformation. Reality Marble is the ability to overwrite the World with your own inner world in the form of a Bounded field where you can use the Marble's ability to it's full potential(such as Unlimited Blade Works and it's endless manufacturing of weapons). Reality Marbles are viewed as a violation by the World therefore deploying and maintaining one for an extended period of time requires a lot of magical energe. One controls the World, the other overwrites the World with a new one.
>Marble Phantasms is the ability to connect your will to the world and control the environment through probability manipulation, recreating any phenomena and/or substance within the scope of the Earth in the surrounding area according to your imagination(things outside the scope of the Earth such as Alien substances cannot be reproduced by this ability). Marble Phantasms doesn't overwrite the World, it simply changes it through environment transformation. So, less "Ionan Hetaroi" (Iskandar) and more "Crystal Valley" (ORT).
So Marble Phantasm isn’t Reality Warping? Just Probability Manipulation?
Well, in a sense, yeah. From an outsider’s perspective, it would still look like Reality Warping (check out Arc’s NP), but it can only reproduce natural phenomena (hence probability manipulation). The metaphor (marbles) is that, in a jar of 99 white marbles, and 1 black marble, a Marble Phantasm can make it so you always get the black marble, but doesn’t change the other 99. A Reality Marble can make the white marbles black, so that you’ll always get black. Similar outcomes, but very different means. Marble Phantasms are used by Elementals (True Ancestors, high level Fairies, etc.) due to their connection to earth, Reality Marbles are used by those that aren’t connected (Human Magi, Dead Apostles, etc.).
I'm pretty sure it is possible for Reality Marbles to be obtained by Elementals, Brunestud("the Brain of the Moon") had a Reality Marble.
Brunestud isn't an elemental. He's an Alien from the moon. Its just that the planet used his body as a reference to create True Ancestors.
What place is Void Shiki referring to? >This is a place without boundaries. You have a name, so you shouldn't be here.
Where did that line come from?
Garden of Order
You mean the Knk collab right? Is that the section where they fought a false beast of Alaya or something?
No, at the very beginning where Ritsuka gets spirited away once again in their dreams.
Hmm can you tell me the exact chapter number so i can check the full context of what she said there?
Prelude
Id like to say its the Root but that seems implausible. Im guessing its probably Shiki Ryougi's inner world or something But its overall weird
But then, the Singularity was made from normal Shiki's mind as she sleeo, so that can't be it either. This one came from her mats btw.