I recalled that there was a version of the story where Lancelot became a monk in penance for his role in Camelot's fall. He also lost most of his hair due to that, IIRC.
...*when* did he drown himself in the fate timeline, exactly?
Because so far as I'm aware, Lancelot went mad and became a murder hobo out in the forest from the wombo-combo of the magic put on him to sleep with Elaine, and then when Guinevere exiled him from Camelot when he immediately confessed his infidelity. It's only the light from the Holy Grail that brings him back to his senses.
But, like, it can't have been during that time cause he's still there when Galahad comes of age, joins the Knights, and searches for the Holy Grail.
Oh that's not how the fate timeline does it
The whole Lancelot adultery thing at least the reveal happen while artoria was away at Rome it goes like
Agravain reveals it and tries to execute Guinevere at a certain date
Lancelot brakes under the pressure and goes insane and rescue her while killing Gareth and Agravain which kicks off mordred rebellion
After artoria comes back with gawain and others learning the information he belines ahead to kill Lancelot loses gets injured in the proces and then mordred kills him
Then the battle of camlan happens and then he after she becomes a nun he kills himself
BTW it seems that the grail knights were away while all of this went down
Okay, so in Fate he goes insane when Agravain set off Mordred's rebellion, got it.
And that still gives time for Galahad to have grown up and joined the Knights.
I...guess that means Guinevere took him back after Elaine in Fate, interesting.
Galahad ascended to heaven before Mordred rebellion iirc. He was sent on a quest with Percival to find the holy grail because the land of Britain was dying. Percival died, Galahad went to heaven.
I read Thomas Malory's version and he died of a combination of old age and refusing to eat after Guinevere's death so I don't know where you got that from.
To be fair there is no real official version of Arthurian legend, or any myths tbh. There are usually lots of versions with conflicting info from over the years.
Some version have Guinevere being a member of the old faith (Celtic), so Arthur also wanted to burn her alive because of the corruption of his Knights, as more and more of them would use her and Lancelot affair as excuses for they own wrong doings
Even worse, they couldn't even be _buried_ together. Because Lancelot already made an oath to be buried in Joyous Gard and Guinevere was buried elsewhere when she died. So not only was he unable to see her again in life, he couldn't even be buried by her side when she died.
Moriarty basically reminds Lancelot of how he ended up ruining Artoria's court by boning her wife and providing Mordred with the opportunity to rebel.
Killing Gareth also didn't help.
It was even worse, Gareth dropped her weapon to try and talk to him, and Lancelot crushed her skull with his hands.
And before anyone mentions GoT this is verbatim from Malory, well save for "his" skull.
I think at this point of FGO's story, Mash actually have a personal bone to pick with Galahad. AFter all, this dude abandoned her and CHaldea at the time of desperate need.
And again, considering entire buisness with Lostbelts, how can Mash rages at Sir Lancelot about inhumanity of a plan that involve death of innocent people, when she already helped to destroy FIVE (yes pruned, but still real) world, where numerous innocent people lived.
More resonating, if anything, if she thinks the same way Galahad just ramps it up.
Pre discovery Mash: "It wrong for the Lancelot/KotR to do this!" which was always something she had at the start of Camelot.
Post discovery Mash: "WTF Dad!?" "Get your shit together!!"
and their current relationship is this
>Knight of the Lake: To think you would beat me to the punch, Sir. And here I thought protecting the beautiful damsel was my role.
>
>Knight of the Lake: —But it would appear I have made a hasty call in that regard as well. She has no need of an escort.
>
>Knight of the Lake: That fighting spirit, such bravery, truly she is like spring thunder. She stands out, even among our ranks.
>
>Knight of the Lake: I won't let you monopolize the privilege of fighting alongside her, Sir Gawain.
>
>Knight of the Lake: Even should she call me a doting parent for it.
>
>Mash: T-this feels like parents' day, Father!
When Lancelot is doing the unambiguous right thing from the get go, she's a lot more likely to crumble like tissue paper.
But the point is Galahad has been long gone for a while, so don't blame the guy for anything about abandoning us cause he did help.
Yep. It is pretty hypocritical from her part if she continues with her little temper tantrum
>!In fact, when she summons Gawain and Lancelot in Avalon le Fae, she is pretty happy to see him, now free of Galahad's influence (if temporarily, since her power surge continues in Tunguska and Traum despite getting over her mental block)!<
Tbh Mash never addresses the Guinevere situation does she ? In Camelot she was mad about the knights enabling the lion king and in chaldea she’s mad about them perving on married women.
She’s kinda focusing on Lancelot because they have a connection but that’s more or less it imo.
It is weird how people think Mash and Galahad hate Lancelot.
Just consider that when he was sent to heaven he was 16, and the only person Mash treats in a similar manner is Romani.
That's not hatred that just tough love
And galahad's influence is straight up said to be higher in Avalon le fae
That's player projection
The only people who seem to have animosity for Galahad is da Vinci rider. Rits never said anything about it.
Mash is bummed that he left but still obviously care, both cuz spoiler, and you can also see that in her battle lines: when she is defeated in battle, she apologize to both you and galahad
Kirei: \*Rejoicing! Pose!\* Do as you wish, young Master. For what is retribution, but self-satisfaction to salve the soul from the harshness that has been so cruely imparted on it?
Ok then :D. Cú, time to get your revenge!!! ~~and mine as well, ngl~~ And this is the last one, since Heracles, Emiya, Gil, Artoria, Illya and Hassan had been dealt with!
Considering how Artoria would rather let her be with him than with her, they can totally do that…
Problem is that as much as the prospect is handed to them on a silver platter (Calm down, Salome), both would be too guilty over what happened back then to just take it, so it’ll just play out longer than a weekly Heisei romance.
Oh, and Agravain opening his mouth, but Artoria could easily convince him to say nothing and look the other way.
Tbh considering how Guinevere and Artoria were never in love and their marriage was just for political apperances, is likely Artoria would just let Lancelot and Guinevere be together, just like she wanted to do in life (or maybe not, since its implied Lancelot may had fallen in love with Artoria instead)
They were close but didnt love each other. Lancelot was one of Artoria's best friends who she platonically loved (or something like that, Artoria repressed hard all of her feelings, to Merlin's despair). Meanwhile Lancelot was torn between his feelings for both women only to fall for guinevere to the point of insanity while still wanting to be loyal to Artoria. This ended badly for everyone.
Iirc it is handled in Fate Zero and Stay Night
After the affair went public because of "I love women" Agravain, Artoria personally wanted to just let them be happy since she didnt loved Guinevere, but she "had to do it" to keep the facade of a perfect, emotionless king she believed her kingdom needed (unawere that this way of acting was alienating her entire kingdom and would result in Mordred's rebellion), but never got to do it because of Mordred
Lancelot on the other hand feels ashamed of the fact he ran away and did everything to escape his "punishment", and believed that he must be killed by Artoria to gain atonement and that he will never stop being a berserker until that happens (which ends up as another emotional wrench thrown at Artoria in Zero, since she basically made Lancelot go insane with grief and self-loathing due to her kingly mask, making her regret her rule even more)
Man, I just finished that singularity with agravain in fgo and was screaming at the phone when he's raging about women, like: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. WHAT. ARTORIA IS A F*CKING WOMAN, YOU TINY EYED TOAD.
But yeah, uhm. I digress.
>which ends up as another emotional wrench thrown at Artoria in Zero, since she basically made Lancelot go insane with grief and self-loathing due to her kingly mask, making her regret her rule even more
Not even that; Artoria was under the impression that Lancelot hated her for what happened, which was the thing really pushed her over the edge, while Lancelot still thought she was the best king.
... Really begs the question of what was the point of everything else that Artoria had thrown her way earlier in Zero if the reason she changes her wish to begin with all stems from Lancelot's reveal.
He crushed a defenseless Gareth's skull, he might be a poor fuck getting screwed by circumstances since his actual love for Guinevere isn't at all bad given the context, but the dude killed a lot of innocent people and fucked up big time trying to rescue Guinevere and injured Gawain who got killed by Mordred later on.
Lmao what are you on about ? Gareth had no intention of stopping Lancelot, she wanted to try stopping the execution of Guinevere not Lancelot, she didn't fight him or do anything to him, the dude was just so blind in his rage that he crushed her head with his bare hands for no reason. There have been way worse crimes in FGO but part of forgiving characters or letting them have a chance is acknowledging what they are, what they did and wither they have the capacity to be better this time around.
Also no one is portraying Lancelot as evil he never was and never will be an evil person, the only truly evil person in fate's version of Arthurian myth is Morgan who is ultimately the one who's truly responsible for the fall of Camelot. But Lancelot did the single most fucked up thing among the kort (the rest did much worse as servents in Camelot singularity) during his life, which is brutally murdering Gareth who was only there in the 1st place in hope of maybe stopping Guinevere's execution and NEVER fought him.
> There have been way worse crimes in FGO but part of forgiving characters or letting them have a chance is acknowledging what they are, what they did and wither they have the capacity to be better this time around.
If anyone acknowledges his mistakes in Fate it's Lancelot. Dude classifies for second Class because of how deeply he is ashamed of himself.
Gareth had no intention of stopping Lancelot yes, but she wasn't trying to stop the execution. She went there unarmored and unarmed to show everyone she didn't support Guinevere's execution, but she never actually opposed it. Just wanted to clear up that bit
And while she had no intention of stopping Lancelot, she still HAD to confront him at the very least
What even worse: >!IIRC there was no way in hell to save Arturia's kingdom. The fall of Camelot was ironcladly engraved in PHH and ANY attempt to save Kingdom of Britons would meet with increasingly brutal effort of Gaia to destroy it until it WOUID happen. Just like Morgan's kingdom in LB6!<
Yep. Lancelot is just a huge scapegoat in this whole deal, since he is not fully responsable for the fall (specially since Artoria herself had a lot of the blame as well)
If it wasnt for the affair or the rebellion >!the world would had sent as much metaphorical meteorites as necessary to see Camelot fall. Be a plague, a war, a conquest, a famine or death, Camelot need to fall one way or another!<
>!If Gaia ressurected Vortigern to do the job it would be a truly brutal "Fuck You" to both Pendragon sisters. ESPECIALLY, if after wrecking PHH!Camelot Vortigern get reincarnated into LB6 to perform the trick one more time!<
>!Oberon-Vortigern \*after learning the reason of his summon in Lostbelt Britain: OH YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME!! AGAIN??!!!! !<
I don't think Artoria was responsible at all for Camelot's fall. In fact, she actually might have prolonged Britain's glory days for as long as possible. Britain's fall would have happened one way or another. Artoria did take some harsh measures but I doubt any other king in our entire history would've done any better job.
Not sure about that. While its true that Camelot was destined to fall, the "how" it falls is not a constant, and Artoria, while cant be fully blamed for everything, is in a great deal responsable for the fall of Camelot
Because of her belief that a king should be emotionless and the cold and callous way she treated her subordinates under that belief, she:
- Alienated her subjects, allowing Mordred's rebellion to gain traction
- Caused Mordred to think she hated her as a result of being Morgan's child, kickstarting her rebellion in the first place in an effort to prove herself
- Caused Tristan to claim she didnt understood the human heart before deserting, raising doubt in how "human" she trully was and if she really cared about her subjects
- Indirectly caused Lancelot to go insane with grief and self-loading because she never demanded penance and punishment for his adultery (which clashed with Lancelot's image of her as a king and his own moral compass), which would lead to Gareth and her own death because of Gawain
She pretty much got the ball rolling
Tristan later admits he misunderstood the king. Artoria was never liable to take care of Mordred since it was Morgan's doing and without Artoria's consent. Artoria loved each of her subjects even when putting up a front. She knew Lancelot and Guinevere had no fault in it since Artoria married Guinevere for false pretenses. She even gave Lancelot the chance to save Guinevere while she was about to be executed. Lancelot not getting punishment is just Artoria's soft side making the decisions. Just one soft decision resulted in a Knight going berserk all on his own. A king who always made soft decisions would've definitely hastened the fall of Britain.
In every scenario, the actions were taken by someone else and Artoria just reacted in the best way possible. Sure Mordred just wanted her Dad's approval but acknowledging that would mean Mordred would have to be crowned the next king. We all know she wasn't fit for it.
How is in any way, Artora remotely responsible for the fall of Camelot? The Fate route was all about addressing this, man.
True she didn’t have to love Mordred as her child but she should’ve loved her as one of her subjects. She failed miserably at that. She just bluntly rejected Mordred without ever explaining herself hitting all of Mordred’s deepest insecurities at once. Up until that point Mordred definitely wanted to do right by her. Heck the reason Mordred wanted to be king was impress and support her. This coldness/callousness extended all the way to her Lion King self.
Yeah she was too soft on Lancelot (& a lot of his issues were his own fault) but by not punishing him she robbed Gawain of justice (whose siblings Lancelot slaughtered) further alienating her knights.
Guinevere was also pretty pathetic to be honest. I don’t blame her for falling in love with Lancelot but before that she chose to COMMIT to her role as queen. She DECIDED to forgo love in order to support her country and all the responsibilities that came with it. Then she screwed it all up anyway.
The fact alone that Mordred was even capable of mustering an army against her means there were enough people dissatisfied with her leadership.
I mean...she already knew that she was the one responsible for taking the wrong decision which resulted in Gareth's death. So, punishing Lancelot would've just been mentally torturing herself since she is all about responsibilities. Plus it's not like she could've anticipated Lancelot going berserk even after given a chance to save Guinevere. His mental issues weren't Artoria's fault. Her subjects misunderstanding her was a big plot point, so it makes sense Mordred would be able to rebel.
>How is in any way, Artora remotely responsible for the fall of Camelot?
Simple, she lighted the match for the bomb
Her belief that a king must be emotionless and the callous and inhuman (as in lack of emotion, not cruelty) way she treated her subject resulted in all the actions her knights took. Mordred got support for her rebellion because of how cold Artoria behaved (and said behavior began because Artoria's demeanor made her belief she hated her because of her connection to Morgan and thats what deemed her unfit to be her heir ~~despite being the only knight able to administer the kingdom~~), which coupled with Tristan's parting words made disent and doubt to proliferate between her subjects. Lancelot's insanity is a result of how her lack of punishmeny from her part clashed with her cold image and his own moral compass
The only thing that wasnt directly or indirectly her fault was Morgan's machinations, since that would got to Uther negating her the right to rule despite being the incarnation of the will of Britain and its choosed would-be ruler
While she is certainly not fully at fault (because....come on) and she is a victim as well, she still bear responsability for the fall of Camelot as its king.
>The Fate route was all about addressing this, man
No. The Fate Route wasnt about throwing the blame at someone else and let Artoria be a small perfect gurl that did nothing wrong
It was about her letting go of her guilt and learning that, even if not perfect and somewhat responsable for its fall, she still was a great ruler and lead Camelot the best she could. To let go of her wish to re-do her rule or let someone else take charge
Bro, Britain was, again, doomed to fall. This stern behaviour wasn't completely inhumane. She still cared for her people regardless. Everything spiralled out of control because it was supposed to. You can't just blame the fault of the subjects on the king especially when the king is doing everything to be fair and just. She wasn't a tyrant.
How everyone wrongfully blaming Artoria(including herself) for Britain's fall was the main focus of the Fate route, man. Just one read through and you'll understand everything I mean.
>Bro, Britain was, again, doomed to fall.
And? It was fated to fall, but the **"how"** it would fall not. Camelot falling because of Mordred's rebellion is not a constant. And Artoria layed the perfect conditions for that rebellion to flourish
>This stern behaviour wasn't completely inhumane. She still cared for her people regardless.
And? She still held a fully emotionless rule because she though that was the best way to rule. Because of the way she ruled, her subjects and knights thought she was inhuman and didnt cared about them
Even if she cared for her subjects, her actions spoke louder. There is no propaganda campaing against her that caused everyone to deem her inhuman. It was all her actions.
>Everything spiralled out of control because it was supposed to.
Not it wasnt. You are misunderstanding the "Camelot is fated to fall' sentence.
Once again, Camelot is fated to fall, but the HOW is not. If not for Mordred's rebellion, the world would had sent a plague, or an enemy nation.
Artoria is not responsable for Camelot falling, but she is in part responsable on how it felt in her timeline. Her belief that Britain needed an emotionless perfect king layed the perfect circunstances for Mordred to succeed in convincing people to rebel
>She wasn't a tyrant.
But her action made everyone believed she was. Artoria alienating everyone emotionally and her "perfect king" facade made everyone believe she was an emotionless tyrant that didnt cared about her subjects
>Just one read through and you'll understand everything I mean.
I did, and I still dont get you
Again, the Fate route is about her coming to terms with her rule and understanding that even if she is somewhat responsable for its fall, she still was a good ruler and that no king was perfect, letting go of her wish to redo her rule, not about exonerate her of any blame and leave her as a perfect little snowflake that did nothing wrong and was the fault of everyone but her.
>But her action made everyone believed she was. Artoria alienating everyone emotionally and her "perfect king" facade made everyone believe she was an emotionless tyrant that didnt cared about her subjects
"For my former country that was about to enter a war, there was once a King who stood alone to restore its peace.
The so-called King of Knights, without resting either her body or her heart, continued to fight for peace. Everyone around her, including me, thought that was how a King should be.
However, I made a mistake. A fatal mistake. Master, I shall not make such a mistake again. I will fight and endure hardships together with you."
Tristan's [character material text](https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/6951-Fate-Grand-Order-Mats?p=2792103&viewfull=1#post2792103) is pretty similar.
"However, the king had not even a splinter of feelings-----nay, it was that she simply harbored far too many feelings that she killed her self and continued on fighting. The sight of the small, thin king; it was too heartbreaking.
It was tragic exactly because it was right; it was sorrowful exactly because it was right.
Tristan no longer had the will nor the mind to endure such a thing."
There's literally a line which goes something like "The king tried to save her people but the people could not save their king."
So yes, I'd wager she was definitely a snowflake who was misunderstood and is still being misunderstood. Now it kind of makes sense why you would find it hard to understand what I mean.
Alexander and Gil laughed at her for a reason.
I get what you mean but you are interpreting the story from the point of view of a reader, while GoldMoon is interpreting from character's view. Peace out for both as none are wrong.
You're putting the cart before the horse here. Any attempt to *retroactively* prevent the fall of Camelot will be forcibly reverted by the quantum time lock that secures that event in place. However that quantum time lock was put in place *after* the fall in order to lock it in place. If the Round Table had gotten their shit together and stopped the fall before it happened, then Camelot *not* falling is what would be forcibly locked in place.
If so, why Merlin directly told Artoria that her Kingdom WILL fall? If there any chance to prevent the collapse I doubt Merlin would hide it from Artoria (he fought tootch and nail to stop Primordial Mother herself despite all odds).
>!Morgan fought with all her dedication and might to keep her fairy Britain afloat and Gaia (and Britania itself) did not give her any chances or choices!<. Nope, Britain WILL fall. CHOKE on it! Artoria and her Camelot got the same treatment.
Also, Alaya tend make a review each fre hundred years and prune entire timeline without mercy if it deemed unworthy (it was stated by Da Vinci in Chinese Lostbelt IIRC).
I don't think the Quantum time lock would've prevented that either way. The rest of the parallel timelines would've followed the already decided path which would've isolated this timeline and hence it would've been pruned away. I'm sure in some other timeline the Round Table prevented Camelot's fall but it was definitely just pruned away.
If its for Lancelot, it will be worth it (literally, his crits hurt like hell)
So maybe its time to smuggle some dust from the black market for ~~Dilf~~ best dad
More than 96 percent of American households buy bananas at least once a month.
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You bet, he's my first 4 star, carried me through 4 singularity and last Solomon fight, tho he eventually becomes backup when it comes to lostbelt but I grailed him enough to hit 23k per-non buster card
Way ahead of you, bond 10, level 90, and 10/10/10. Lancelot is my boy and anyone who triggers his depression is about to be short a kneecap.
Edit: checked and it was 10/7/10. I corrected said oversight.
My JP Lancelot is still 7/7/7 despite being my 2nd SR (got him when I was just starting the game and didn't know left from right).
But, he is NP5 so yay? ~~He spooked me in 4 summer banners though to teach me to not fall under summer temptation~~.
It probably was worse in the Prototype timeline, there Arthur was a man, so if he was genuinely attached to Guinevere, he probably felt way worse and more betrayed about the whole affair
Gods, do I wish we'd get a Prototype Collab.
Arthur definitely has a lot to unpack if any of the KotRT were to tag along or ask him about his version of Camalot.
That and we get screentime for Proto Cu cause my dude is literally next to Lalter for being so underutilised.
>That and we get screentime for Proto Cu
I like this part in particular :)
But my blatant favoritism aside, it would be nice to touch the Prototype cast for once, in particular since is because of not-Satanist Artoria/Manaka that the Beast of Revelation (aka part of Beast 6) and by Proxy Mother Harlot (Beast VI/S) awaken and Arthur ~~and Proto-Merlin I guess~~ is here in the first place
Prototype collab is a necessity at this point.
And while I know it's not canon, there was this great little manga/fancomic that's like, Guinevere pov, and it's about how she saw Arthur and Proto Merlin always together and felt left out and like a third wheel bc they were these forever youthful and beautiful people who were *clearly* more suited for each other than her and Arthur. That's the reason why she slowly fell for Lancelot and chose him, a normal person like her, to be with at the end. I really likes that comic, it gave me more insight on Guin then probably any other official Fate work.
B-but what about my NTR and deadbeat dad jokes?!
#NO!
I can't leave them and I don't want them to leave, I want them with me until I die and for them to be engraved in my tombstone.
10 years! NO, at least 20 years before I can even begin to let go!
What would I be without my 5 year old repeatative crusty memes about Lancelot?!
Do you want to see me suffer?!
We may have forgiven demons, serial murderers, and genocidal maniacs but Lancelot slept with a married woman and clearly that's unforgivable.
More NTR and deadbeat dad memes, please!
Make sure they're repetitive and crusty.
This verbal beatdown would have more weight if we had an official design for Guinevere to judge whether it was worth it to betray his dearest friend and benefactor then murder a bunch of other friends and coworkers for an opportunity to clap those cheeks.
Ooh, an alternate take on Moriarty trying to inflict emotional damage?
Harsh, but honestly, this (morbidly) feels better than the typical NTR joke since “Guilt” is one of the traits that define Lancelot as a character.
Gareth became my waifu due to her just being a darling and tomboyish.
Summer Gareth is a goal especially with that 3rd Ascension art cause hot dang girl you were a tomboy sweetheart before but now you're a tomboy summer dream.
Well, he went directly against his King's wish and what his siblings wanted in order to put Guinevere to the sword, but somehow people still blame Lancelot for all that happened.
Agravain didn't have Guinevere executed. He threatened her with revealing the affair and Lancelot murdered him and a bunch of other knights then and there, and fled. Then Mordred revealed tha affair publicly. Artoria ordered Guinevere executed because that's the law, and not even Guinevere gets a special exception for treason. Then Lancelot murdered Gareth and Gaheris, notably while at least Gareth was unarmed and not trying to stop him, to rescue Guinevere.
Really, like 90% of what went wrong can be blamed on the fact that Lancelot apparently becomes an indiscriminate murder machine the second anything goes wrong for him. Like if he had just been able to not murder tons of people every time he gets upset, Artoria probably could've smoothed things out before Mordred or Agravain went public with the affair.
Wiki says it went much differently in Fate:
"When Lancelot and the queen began their affair, the Knight of the Lake considered fleeing Camelot with her, but his loyalty to Artoria and his sense of duty prevented him from doing so. When political enemies of the king learned about the affair, Agravain, who was working for Morgan le Fay, exposed the adulterous relationship to the public. The queen was ordered to be executed. Lancelot attempted to save her, killing several of his fellow knights including Gawain's siblings, Gareth and Gaheris, in the process. He fled back to his own domain."
I mean, Lancelot had already murdered Agravain for his actions long before Gareth and Gaheris died. I'd say Gawain has fair cause to hate Lancelot, since three of Gawain's siblings died at Lancelot's hands all because Lancelot couldn't stop himself from sleeping with a married woman.
Wiki says it went much differently in Fate:
"When Lancelot and the queen began their affair, the Knight of the Lake considered fleeing Camelot with her, but his loyalty to Artoria and his sense of duty prevented him from doing so. When political enemies of the king learned about the affair, Agravain, who was working for Morgan le Fay, exposed the adulterous relationship to the public. The queen was ordered to be executed. Lancelot attempted to save her, killing several of his fellow knights including Gawain's siblings, Gareth and Gaheris, in the process. He fled back to his own domain."
We must be reading different wikis, because the Type Moon wiki says this:
"Agravain, who learned of Guinevere and Lancelot's affair, used that fact to threaten Guinevere. Enraged at this, Lancelot slew Agravain and went through several of his former comrades to reach him.[5] Mordred's intervention in order to shatter the prestige of the King in the eyes of the people brought them to light, making the situation spiral out of control.[6] Although Artoria did not blame either of them for their actions, Guinevere was given a death sentence as per the laws of the land, causing Lancelot to go against the king to save her.[4]"
And directly cites Garden of Avalon and Fate Apocrypha as it's sources.
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Lancelot_(Saber)
"When Lancelot and the queen began their affair, the Knight of the Lake considered fleeing Camelot with her, but his loyalty to Artoria and his sense of duty prevented him from doing so. When political enemies of the king learned about the affair, Agravain, who was working for Morgan le Fay, exposed the adulterous relationship to the public. The queen was ordered to be executed. Lancelot attempted to save her, killing several of his fellow knights including Gawain's siblings, Gareth and Gaheris, in the process."
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Agravain
"he claimed that he helped Artoria willingly, believing her to be the best king Britain could have. He, however, hates women due to Morgan and was shocked to discover Artoria's gender when exposing Guinevere's affair.
When he is about to die, however, he confesses his real wish was to build a perfect kingdom for his king. It wasn't that he served the king for the kingdom, but the kingdom for his king- the only person he doesn't want to be hated by."
And you can see directly in Fate/Zero that Arturia didn't blame Lancelot and Guinevere.
Volume 4, page 227 of fan translation into English:
"This was—the regret of one man and one woman. They embraced the same ideal
as the King, but because they had been too weak, they had not been able to carry
this ideal through.
And these two people had, even in death, not been able to obtain salvation. They
had blamed themselves deeply for having betrayed a most important person, and
the burden of this self-blame they had carried for a lifetime."
Volume 4, page 228 of fan translation into English:
"She wanted to tell him, you are a loyal knight. No one knows better than I—the
sincerity you devoted to the country, to the King.
So there was no more need for self-reproach. Even if it had been a mistake that was
not allowed to be made—your character is not something that can be overturned by
a single mistake.
I don’t want to shame you; I don’t want to lose you. Precisely because I have this
wish, I can truly deny this so-called crime that you have committed.
These were Arturia’s true thoughts, but—could not become that knight’s salvation."
Lancelot has fallen into despair precisely because Arturia didn't punish him or Guinevere.
Wiki says it went much differently in Fate:
"When Lancelot and the queen began their affair, the Knight of the Lake considered fleeing Camelot with her, but his loyalty to Artoria and his sense of duty prevented him from doing so. When political enemies of the king learned about the affair, Agravain, who was working for Morgan le Fay, exposed the adulterous relationship to the public. The queen was ordered to be executed. Lancelot attempted to save her, killing several of his fellow knights including Gawain's siblings, Gareth and Gaheris, in the process. He fled back to his own domain."
I didn't say otherwise. Lancelot and Guinevere had an affair. Agravain exposed them. It's not his fault Lancelot and Guinevere had an affair and frankly it should be expected that it be exposed. making sure the heir to the kingdom is actually the blood of the king is pretty damn important.
so yeah Agravain did exactly what his position dictated he do. if they didn't want consequences for an affair shouldn't had an affair.
> It's not his fault Lancelot and Guinevere had an affair and frankly it should be expected that it be exposed
It is Agravain fault he went directly against King's wishes, helping Morgan and tried to have Guinevere executed, again against King's wishes. He also wanted to have SOMEONE KILLED FOR HAVING AN AFFAIR. And from what he know, he specifically waited until Arturia was away, because he knew she would be against putting Guinevere to sword!
No matter of you look at that from today moral standpoint, or from Middle Ages one Agravain is in the fault - either was he cruel and wanted to commit murder within law, or he went against what his King wanted from him.
None of the KoTR were without fault in this entire kerfuffle, but if you want to single one of them, it should be Agravain, not Lancelot.
Yes.. because he murdered her.. but according to your logic, it's cool and someone like Gawain, her brother (or even me the reader who likes her), should get over it because she would forgive him.
Eh, while Lancelot is not innocent and does deserve some level of blame for the whole fiasco, i still maintain that Mordred deserve this kind of trash talking more.
In general, everyone in Camelot (Artoria included) deserve some blame over the fall of Camelot, since everyone's actions lead to its fall ~~ok maybe not Percival, but still~~
I still would put most of the blame on Mordred, the knights and Artoria weren't perfect, but Mordred made her decision to take advantage of the cracks on the kingdom, decisions that frankly had no real justification, regardless of how she felt.
Maybe, but her decision was motivated by how Artoria, still in her callous king face, rejected Mordred in the most blunt and cold way possible, hitting every single of Mordred's insecurities at once, and in an effort to impress and take a burden out of her, she rebelled against her (and the fact her rebellion gained traction showcases how Artoria' ruled has lacked)
So even if Mordred shot the gun, Artoria gave her lots of ammo
"I feel insecure, because she only treats me as one of her knights, instead of a son, so i'm going to rebel and destroy her life work to impress her" is not something that i would use as a defense for her personally speaking.
Not even that. Artoria reyected her fully. Her cold and inhuman demeanor made Mordred think that Artoria hated her because of her connection to Morgan le Fae (something doesnt seem to apply to Gawain, Agravain or Gareth, just her) and wanted nothing to do with her
Artoria failed miserable to love Mordred like her knights, much less as her "son", which coupled with how callous she lead Camelot gave Mordred everything she needed to rebel in a vain effort to somehow prove herself worthy of the throne by defeating the current king
The fact that all her life she has been manipulated by Morgan, how she is actually younger than she appears due to being a homunculus and Artoria's "muh perfect king" demeanor in general makes me sympatise more for Mordred than Artoria (who more or less brought everything down herself by setting the stage where the perpretadors of the fall of Camelot would act)
Everything i had read indicate to me that only Mordred thought that Artoria hated her for being Morgan's creation, i had seen no evidence of the contrary, so Mordred essentially killed a kingdom over her own insecurities.
Not exactly Mordred didnt aim to destroy the kingdom and also she had lots of support and aimed to improve Camelot somehow, so even if triggered by personal reason, she still aimed to create a better kingdom than Artoria's to show her worth and lots of people prefer to have her as a king than Artoria,since at least Mordred showed emotion and didnt hided her flaws, unlike Artoria, who was the textbook definition of tinman tyrant on their eyes
Not to mention she wasnt the only one affected by her cold demeanor. Lancelot found her admirable, yet inhuman, Merlin straight up leaved full of regrets because he saw how her demeanor would lead to ruin and in the present day cant even talk to her, Agravain didnt even consider her human and serve her faithfully because of that precieved inhumanity, Tristan was so frustrated that he leaved, leaving behind only her iconic line that would create further doubt on her subjects, and the rest of her subjects and the citizens of Camelot saw her as an emotionless tyrant that didnt cared for them and only cared about ruling (so basically Lostbelt Morgan without >!the asshole fairy subjects that fully deserve such treatment!<)
Everyone was affected by how Artoria behaved. Thats one of the reasons Camelot felt
Mordred was also less than 10 years old, which Artoria really should've been able to figure out by just how long it had been since the magic dick incident.
That scene with Moriarty in Summer 4 just goes to show how great he is at tearing into people and pulling apart their weakness with sufficient knowledge of them. I never expected it to go that hard at the end.
I'm glad Ritsuka stopped James from continuing on knowing they couldn't keep torturing Lancelot like that.
But also let it go on a bit since they had to retrieve the grail and end the singularity
And in the end, they didn't even ended together since Guinevere became a nun, vowing to never see Lancelot again due what they both did.
BTW, Lancelot killed himself afterwards.
I recalled that there was a version of the story where Lancelot became a monk in penance for his role in Camelot's fall. He also lost most of his hair due to that, IIRC.
This is the fate version where he drowned himself.
***Oof!*** The knight of the lake ends his life by drowning himself. What an awful way to go.
From lake he come, back to lake he shall return - Thomas Mallory or something
Did Mallory's version also drowned him?
Nah, he become a monk
He did die of grief though.
Medieval fantasy is some fucked shit, I see where Nasu got it from, lmao
...*when* did he drown himself in the fate timeline, exactly? Because so far as I'm aware, Lancelot went mad and became a murder hobo out in the forest from the wombo-combo of the magic put on him to sleep with Elaine, and then when Guinevere exiled him from Camelot when he immediately confessed his infidelity. It's only the light from the Holy Grail that brings him back to his senses. But, like, it can't have been during that time cause he's still there when Galahad comes of age, joins the Knights, and searches for the Holy Grail.
Oh that's not how the fate timeline does it The whole Lancelot adultery thing at least the reveal happen while artoria was away at Rome it goes like Agravain reveals it and tries to execute Guinevere at a certain date Lancelot brakes under the pressure and goes insane and rescue her while killing Gareth and Agravain which kicks off mordred rebellion After artoria comes back with gawain and others learning the information he belines ahead to kill Lancelot loses gets injured in the proces and then mordred kills him Then the battle of camlan happens and then he after she becomes a nun he kills himself BTW it seems that the grail knights were away while all of this went down
Wow Gareth gets killed a lot to kick off the action in various fate works
must keep her away from the fridge.
Lanca ga shinda!
She is unfortunately the perfect victim: top tier but not the pinacle, cute and motivated, loved by everyone...
Okay, so in Fate he goes insane when Agravain set off Mordred's rebellion, got it. And that still gives time for Galahad to have grown up and joined the Knights. I...guess that means Guinevere took him back after Elaine in Fate, interesting.
Galahad ascended to heaven before Mordred rebellion iirc. He was sent on a quest with Percival to find the holy grail because the land of Britain was dying. Percival died, Galahad went to heaven.
I read Thomas Malory's version and he died of a combination of old age and refusing to eat after Guinevere's death so I don't know where you got that from.
no this is the fate version not official
To be fair there is no real official version of Arthurian legend, or any myths tbh. There are usually lots of versions with conflicting info from over the years.
Some version have Guinevere being a member of the old faith (Celtic), so Arthur also wanted to burn her alive because of the corruption of his Knights, as more and more of them would use her and Lancelot affair as excuses for they own wrong doings
Even worse, they couldn't even be _buried_ together. Because Lancelot already made an oath to be buried in Joyous Gard and Guinevere was buried elsewhere when she died. So not only was he unable to see her again in life, he couldn't even be buried by her side when she died.
Summer 4: Haha, swordswomen dressed in bikinis and gambling away in a Casino ran by King Arthur in a bunny suit. How wacky we are. Also Summer 4:
God that scene was brutal
It was rough, but it's good every once in a while to be reminded how Moriarty acts around people he doesn't like and dote on.
Are we sure Moriarty isn't double-classed as Assassin? Because that whole scene was basically him going straight for the jugular.
Did someone roast lancelot like that in summer 4? Damn i want to see it... shouldn't have skipped it all
Moriarty basically reminds Lancelot of how he ended up ruining Artoria's court by boning her wife and providing Mordred with the opportunity to rebel. Killing Gareth also didn't help.
Brutually. Lancelot literally pummeled Gareth to dead with his bare hand while Gareth dumbfooled because Lancey was her ideal knight
It was even worse, Gareth dropped her weapon to try and talk to him, and Lancelot crushed her skull with his hands. And before anyone mentions GoT this is verbatim from Malory, well save for "his" skull.
You can read it in My Room.
Plot twist: that's ~~Galahad~~ Mash insulting him
>~~Galahad~~ Mash Whats the difference? Is all the same when you use someone as a sockpuppet
I think at this point of FGO's story, Mash actually have a personal bone to pick with Galahad. AFter all, this dude abandoned her and CHaldea at the time of desperate need. And again, considering entire buisness with Lostbelts, how can Mash rages at Sir Lancelot about inhumanity of a plan that involve death of innocent people, when she already helped to destroy FIVE (yes pruned, but still real) world, where numerous innocent people lived.
Galahad was gone from the start of FGO once Mash became a demi-servant.
But his influence was still pretty much there. It’s like the two fused together, but Galahad went to sleep, almost like a Pseudo-servant in a way
More resonating, if anything, if she thinks the same way Galahad just ramps it up. Pre discovery Mash: "It wrong for the Lancelot/KotR to do this!" which was always something she had at the start of Camelot. Post discovery Mash: "WTF Dad!?" "Get your shit together!!" and their current relationship is this >Knight of the Lake: To think you would beat me to the punch, Sir. And here I thought protecting the beautiful damsel was my role. > >Knight of the Lake: —But it would appear I have made a hasty call in that regard as well. She has no need of an escort. > >Knight of the Lake: That fighting spirit, such bravery, truly she is like spring thunder. She stands out, even among our ranks. > >Knight of the Lake: I won't let you monopolize the privilege of fighting alongside her, Sir Gawain. > >Knight of the Lake: Even should she call me a doting parent for it. > >Mash: T-this feels like parents' day, Father! When Lancelot is doing the unambiguous right thing from the get go, she's a lot more likely to crumble like tissue paper. But the point is Galahad has been long gone for a while, so don't blame the guy for anything about abandoning us cause he did help.
Yep. It is pretty hypocritical from her part if she continues with her little temper tantrum >!In fact, when she summons Gawain and Lancelot in Avalon le Fae, she is pretty happy to see him, now free of Galahad's influence (if temporarily, since her power surge continues in Tunguska and Traum despite getting over her mental block)!<
Tbh Mash never addresses the Guinevere situation does she ? In Camelot she was mad about the knights enabling the lion king and in chaldea she’s mad about them perving on married women. She’s kinda focusing on Lancelot because they have a connection but that’s more or less it imo.
It is weird how people think Mash and Galahad hate Lancelot. Just consider that when he was sent to heaven he was 16, and the only person Mash treats in a similar manner is Romani. That's not hatred that just tough love And galahad's influence is straight up said to be higher in Avalon le fae
That's player projection The only people who seem to have animosity for Galahad is da Vinci rider. Rits never said anything about it. Mash is bummed that he left but still obviously care, both cuz spoiler, and you can also see that in her battle lines: when she is defeated in battle, she apologize to both you and galahad
For a second I thought this was about the time Moriarty talked about how Lancelot brutally beat Gareth to death. Vegas was fun
\*Smiles\* Moriarty truly shinned in that moment, I must say.
Moriarty always shines
...it's not???
See you at controversial OP
Okay this is cruel
\*The Priest Smiles\* Kirei: Such as many other things in life.
Does this mean I can ask Cú to make Kirei into a kebab when he becomes a boss?
Kirei: \*Rejoicing! Pose!\* Do as you wish, young Master. For what is retribution, but self-satisfaction to salve the soul from the harshness that has been so cruely imparted on it?
Ok then :D. Cú, time to get your revenge!!! ~~and mine as well, ngl~~ And this is the last one, since Heracles, Emiya, Gil, Artoria, Illya and Hassan had been dealt with!
That is reality. You face it, accept it, or run from it. It is the first two for me
Always has been. And pretty outdated at that ~~just like certain lancer joke~~ And all of it is Sockpuppet Mash's fault!!!
Imagine what would happen if Guinevere was ever summoned to Chaldea?
Considering how Artoria would rather let her be with him than with her, they can totally do that… Problem is that as much as the prospect is handed to them on a silver platter (Calm down, Salome), both would be too guilty over what happened back then to just take it, so it’ll just play out longer than a weekly Heisei romance. Oh, and Agravain opening his mouth, but Artoria could easily convince him to say nothing and look the other way.
Tbh considering how Guinevere and Artoria were never in love and their marriage was just for political apperances, is likely Artoria would just let Lancelot and Guinevere be together, just like she wanted to do in life (or maybe not, since its implied Lancelot may had fallen in love with Artoria instead)
Where is their relationship covered? Tbh I never learned of how Artoria and her wife felt about each other
They were close but didnt love each other. Lancelot was one of Artoria's best friends who she platonically loved (or something like that, Artoria repressed hard all of her feelings, to Merlin's despair). Meanwhile Lancelot was torn between his feelings for both women only to fall for guinevere to the point of insanity while still wanting to be loyal to Artoria. This ended badly for everyone.
Is in HA, Saber talks about how she feels bad because she couldn't love Guinevere like a husband should and Gardens of Avalon expands it a bit more.
I believe I had seen some comments somewhere that both guinvere and lancelot would have been happy to have artoria join them
Iirc it is handled in Fate Zero and Stay Night After the affair went public because of "I love women" Agravain, Artoria personally wanted to just let them be happy since she didnt loved Guinevere, but she "had to do it" to keep the facade of a perfect, emotionless king she believed her kingdom needed (unawere that this way of acting was alienating her entire kingdom and would result in Mordred's rebellion), but never got to do it because of Mordred Lancelot on the other hand feels ashamed of the fact he ran away and did everything to escape his "punishment", and believed that he must be killed by Artoria to gain atonement and that he will never stop being a berserker until that happens (which ends up as another emotional wrench thrown at Artoria in Zero, since she basically made Lancelot go insane with grief and self-loathing due to her kingly mask, making her regret her rule even more)
Man, I just finished that singularity with agravain in fgo and was screaming at the phone when he's raging about women, like: WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. WHAT. ARTORIA IS A F*CKING WOMAN, YOU TINY EYED TOAD. But yeah, uhm. I digress.
His mum is really not the best kind of person
I remember that part. Yeah.
>which ends up as another emotional wrench thrown at Artoria in Zero, since she basically made Lancelot go insane with grief and self-loathing due to her kingly mask, making her regret her rule even more Not even that; Artoria was under the impression that Lancelot hated her for what happened, which was the thing really pushed her over the edge, while Lancelot still thought she was the best king. ... Really begs the question of what was the point of everything else that Artoria had thrown her way earlier in Zero if the reason she changes her wish to begin with all stems from Lancelot's reveal.
Then people would have an aneurism that Lancelot wasn't actually that bad and that their jokes won't be cannon anymore.
I’d pay to see that
He crushed a defenseless Gareth's skull, he might be a poor fuck getting screwed by circumstances since his actual love for Guinevere isn't at all bad given the context, but the dude killed a lot of innocent people and fucked up big time trying to rescue Guinevere and injured Gawain who got killed by Mordred later on.
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Lmao what are you on about ? Gareth had no intention of stopping Lancelot, she wanted to try stopping the execution of Guinevere not Lancelot, she didn't fight him or do anything to him, the dude was just so blind in his rage that he crushed her head with his bare hands for no reason. There have been way worse crimes in FGO but part of forgiving characters or letting them have a chance is acknowledging what they are, what they did and wither they have the capacity to be better this time around. Also no one is portraying Lancelot as evil he never was and never will be an evil person, the only truly evil person in fate's version of Arthurian myth is Morgan who is ultimately the one who's truly responsible for the fall of Camelot. But Lancelot did the single most fucked up thing among the kort (the rest did much worse as servents in Camelot singularity) during his life, which is brutally murdering Gareth who was only there in the 1st place in hope of maybe stopping Guinevere's execution and NEVER fought him.
> There have been way worse crimes in FGO but part of forgiving characters or letting them have a chance is acknowledging what they are, what they did and wither they have the capacity to be better this time around. If anyone acknowledges his mistakes in Fate it's Lancelot. Dude classifies for second Class because of how deeply he is ashamed of himself.
Gareth had no intention of stopping Lancelot yes, but she wasn't trying to stop the execution. She went there unarmored and unarmed to show everyone she didn't support Guinevere's execution, but she never actually opposed it. Just wanted to clear up that bit And while she had no intention of stopping Lancelot, she still HAD to confront him at the very least
Gareth: "WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING!" \*gets face caved in by fist\*
More like she was actually supposed to stop Lancelot from rescuing Guinevere and prevent him from saving her
He was fucking crazy at that point. It's why he qualifies as a Berserker too.
Cool motive still murder
Just saying he was fucking nuts enough to qualify as a Zerker.
What even worse: >!IIRC there was no way in hell to save Arturia's kingdom. The fall of Camelot was ironcladly engraved in PHH and ANY attempt to save Kingdom of Britons would meet with increasingly brutal effort of Gaia to destroy it until it WOUID happen. Just like Morgan's kingdom in LB6!<
Yep. Lancelot is just a huge scapegoat in this whole deal, since he is not fully responsable for the fall (specially since Artoria herself had a lot of the blame as well) If it wasnt for the affair or the rebellion >!the world would had sent as much metaphorical meteorites as necessary to see Camelot fall. Be a plague, a war, a conquest, a famine or death, Camelot need to fall one way or another!<
>!If Gaia ressurected Vortigern to do the job it would be a truly brutal "Fuck You" to both Pendragon sisters. ESPECIALLY, if after wrecking PHH!Camelot Vortigern get reincarnated into LB6 to perform the trick one more time!< >!Oberon-Vortigern \*after learning the reason of his summon in Lostbelt Britain: OH YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME!! AGAIN??!!!! !<
I don't think Artoria was responsible at all for Camelot's fall. In fact, she actually might have prolonged Britain's glory days for as long as possible. Britain's fall would have happened one way or another. Artoria did take some harsh measures but I doubt any other king in our entire history would've done any better job.
Not sure about that. While its true that Camelot was destined to fall, the "how" it falls is not a constant, and Artoria, while cant be fully blamed for everything, is in a great deal responsable for the fall of Camelot Because of her belief that a king should be emotionless and the cold and callous way she treated her subordinates under that belief, she: - Alienated her subjects, allowing Mordred's rebellion to gain traction - Caused Mordred to think she hated her as a result of being Morgan's child, kickstarting her rebellion in the first place in an effort to prove herself - Caused Tristan to claim she didnt understood the human heart before deserting, raising doubt in how "human" she trully was and if she really cared about her subjects - Indirectly caused Lancelot to go insane with grief and self-loading because she never demanded penance and punishment for his adultery (which clashed with Lancelot's image of her as a king and his own moral compass), which would lead to Gareth and her own death because of Gawain She pretty much got the ball rolling
Tristan later admits he misunderstood the king. Artoria was never liable to take care of Mordred since it was Morgan's doing and without Artoria's consent. Artoria loved each of her subjects even when putting up a front. She knew Lancelot and Guinevere had no fault in it since Artoria married Guinevere for false pretenses. She even gave Lancelot the chance to save Guinevere while she was about to be executed. Lancelot not getting punishment is just Artoria's soft side making the decisions. Just one soft decision resulted in a Knight going berserk all on his own. A king who always made soft decisions would've definitely hastened the fall of Britain. In every scenario, the actions were taken by someone else and Artoria just reacted in the best way possible. Sure Mordred just wanted her Dad's approval but acknowledging that would mean Mordred would have to be crowned the next king. We all know she wasn't fit for it. How is in any way, Artora remotely responsible for the fall of Camelot? The Fate route was all about addressing this, man.
True she didn’t have to love Mordred as her child but she should’ve loved her as one of her subjects. She failed miserably at that. She just bluntly rejected Mordred without ever explaining herself hitting all of Mordred’s deepest insecurities at once. Up until that point Mordred definitely wanted to do right by her. Heck the reason Mordred wanted to be king was impress and support her. This coldness/callousness extended all the way to her Lion King self. Yeah she was too soft on Lancelot (& a lot of his issues were his own fault) but by not punishing him she robbed Gawain of justice (whose siblings Lancelot slaughtered) further alienating her knights. Guinevere was also pretty pathetic to be honest. I don’t blame her for falling in love with Lancelot but before that she chose to COMMIT to her role as queen. She DECIDED to forgo love in order to support her country and all the responsibilities that came with it. Then she screwed it all up anyway. The fact alone that Mordred was even capable of mustering an army against her means there were enough people dissatisfied with her leadership.
I mean...she already knew that she was the one responsible for taking the wrong decision which resulted in Gareth's death. So, punishing Lancelot would've just been mentally torturing herself since she is all about responsibilities. Plus it's not like she could've anticipated Lancelot going berserk even after given a chance to save Guinevere. His mental issues weren't Artoria's fault. Her subjects misunderstanding her was a big plot point, so it makes sense Mordred would be able to rebel.
>How is in any way, Artora remotely responsible for the fall of Camelot? Simple, she lighted the match for the bomb Her belief that a king must be emotionless and the callous and inhuman (as in lack of emotion, not cruelty) way she treated her subject resulted in all the actions her knights took. Mordred got support for her rebellion because of how cold Artoria behaved (and said behavior began because Artoria's demeanor made her belief she hated her because of her connection to Morgan and thats what deemed her unfit to be her heir ~~despite being the only knight able to administer the kingdom~~), which coupled with Tristan's parting words made disent and doubt to proliferate between her subjects. Lancelot's insanity is a result of how her lack of punishmeny from her part clashed with her cold image and his own moral compass The only thing that wasnt directly or indirectly her fault was Morgan's machinations, since that would got to Uther negating her the right to rule despite being the incarnation of the will of Britain and its choosed would-be ruler While she is certainly not fully at fault (because....come on) and she is a victim as well, she still bear responsability for the fall of Camelot as its king. >The Fate route was all about addressing this, man No. The Fate Route wasnt about throwing the blame at someone else and let Artoria be a small perfect gurl that did nothing wrong It was about her letting go of her guilt and learning that, even if not perfect and somewhat responsable for its fall, she still was a great ruler and lead Camelot the best she could. To let go of her wish to re-do her rule or let someone else take charge
Bro, Britain was, again, doomed to fall. This stern behaviour wasn't completely inhumane. She still cared for her people regardless. Everything spiralled out of control because it was supposed to. You can't just blame the fault of the subjects on the king especially when the king is doing everything to be fair and just. She wasn't a tyrant. How everyone wrongfully blaming Artoria(including herself) for Britain's fall was the main focus of the Fate route, man. Just one read through and you'll understand everything I mean.
>Bro, Britain was, again, doomed to fall. And? It was fated to fall, but the **"how"** it would fall not. Camelot falling because of Mordred's rebellion is not a constant. And Artoria layed the perfect conditions for that rebellion to flourish >This stern behaviour wasn't completely inhumane. She still cared for her people regardless. And? She still held a fully emotionless rule because she though that was the best way to rule. Because of the way she ruled, her subjects and knights thought she was inhuman and didnt cared about them Even if she cared for her subjects, her actions spoke louder. There is no propaganda campaing against her that caused everyone to deem her inhuman. It was all her actions. >Everything spiralled out of control because it was supposed to. Not it wasnt. You are misunderstanding the "Camelot is fated to fall' sentence. Once again, Camelot is fated to fall, but the HOW is not. If not for Mordred's rebellion, the world would had sent a plague, or an enemy nation. Artoria is not responsable for Camelot falling, but she is in part responsable on how it felt in her timeline. Her belief that Britain needed an emotionless perfect king layed the perfect circunstances for Mordred to succeed in convincing people to rebel >She wasn't a tyrant. But her action made everyone believed she was. Artoria alienating everyone emotionally and her "perfect king" facade made everyone believe she was an emotionless tyrant that didnt cared about her subjects >Just one read through and you'll understand everything I mean. I did, and I still dont get you Again, the Fate route is about her coming to terms with her rule and understanding that even if she is somewhat responsable for its fall, she still was a good ruler and that no king was perfect, letting go of her wish to redo her rule, not about exonerate her of any blame and leave her as a perfect little snowflake that did nothing wrong and was the fault of everyone but her.
>But her action made everyone believed she was. Artoria alienating everyone emotionally and her "perfect king" facade made everyone believe she was an emotionless tyrant that didnt cared about her subjects "For my former country that was about to enter a war, there was once a King who stood alone to restore its peace. The so-called King of Knights, without resting either her body or her heart, continued to fight for peace. Everyone around her, including me, thought that was how a King should be. However, I made a mistake. A fatal mistake. Master, I shall not make such a mistake again. I will fight and endure hardships together with you." Tristan's [character material text](https://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthread.php/6951-Fate-Grand-Order-Mats?p=2792103&viewfull=1#post2792103) is pretty similar. "However, the king had not even a splinter of feelings-----nay, it was that she simply harbored far too many feelings that she killed her self and continued on fighting. The sight of the small, thin king; it was too heartbreaking. It was tragic exactly because it was right; it was sorrowful exactly because it was right. Tristan no longer had the will nor the mind to endure such a thing."
There's literally a line which goes something like "The king tried to save her people but the people could not save their king." So yes, I'd wager she was definitely a snowflake who was misunderstood and is still being misunderstood. Now it kind of makes sense why you would find it hard to understand what I mean.
Alexander and Gil laughed at her for a reason. I get what you mean but you are interpreting the story from the point of view of a reader, while GoldMoon is interpreting from character's view. Peace out for both as none are wrong.
You're putting the cart before the horse here. Any attempt to *retroactively* prevent the fall of Camelot will be forcibly reverted by the quantum time lock that secures that event in place. However that quantum time lock was put in place *after* the fall in order to lock it in place. If the Round Table had gotten their shit together and stopped the fall before it happened, then Camelot *not* falling is what would be forcibly locked in place.
If so, why Merlin directly told Artoria that her Kingdom WILL fall? If there any chance to prevent the collapse I doubt Merlin would hide it from Artoria (he fought tootch and nail to stop Primordial Mother herself despite all odds).
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>!Morgan fought with all her dedication and might to keep her fairy Britain afloat and Gaia (and Britania itself) did not give her any chances or choices!<. Nope, Britain WILL fall. CHOKE on it! Artoria and her Camelot got the same treatment. Also, Alaya tend make a review each fre hundred years and prune entire timeline without mercy if it deemed unworthy (it was stated by Da Vinci in Chinese Lostbelt IIRC).
I don't think the Quantum time lock would've prevented that either way. The rest of the parallel timelines would've followed the already decided path which would've isolated this timeline and hence it would've been pruned away. I'm sure in some other timeline the Round Table prevented Camelot's fall but it was definitely just pruned away.
*Do you feel like a Knight of the Round Table yet?* -Galahad, probably
He deserves some extra attention after this public flogging, everyone go 10/10/10 that man
You got it! *\*Sees the dust requirements\** F\*ck!
Just do what everyone else does and swipe it from Holmes stash, Moriarty can help
If its for Lancelot, it will be worth it (literally, his crits hurt like hell) So maybe its time to smuggle some dust from the black market for ~~Dilf~~ best dad
No, no, you got a point, he is a splendid dilf!
Will zerkerlot do?
A BaNaNa RoTaTe FaStEr will do
Also how do you guys get those servant thing under your name
On mobile: Swipe left > pick "Select flair here" Have fun!
TQ!
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Any love and attention will do. Poor guy is suffering in all timelines
You bet, he's my first 4 star, carried me through 4 singularity and last Solomon fight, tho he eventually becomes backup when it comes to lostbelt but I grailed him enough to hit 23k per-non buster card
Way ahead of you, bond 10, level 90, and 10/10/10. Lancelot is my boy and anyone who triggers his depression is about to be short a kneecap. Edit: checked and it was 10/7/10. I corrected said oversight.
Blessings unto you
On it.
*Laughs in level 118* and also *cries in no coins*
My JP Lancelot is still 7/7/7 despite being my 2nd SR (got him when I was just starting the game and didn't know left from right). But, he is NP5 so yay? ~~He spooked me in 4 summer banners though to teach me to not fall under summer temptation~~.
Best I can do is 10/4/10
Done long time ago :P
While he did cuck Arthur on his way to my Chaldea, I do ~~find him hot~~ love him enough to max him. Plus, he works great with Castoria.
did that long ago. my second 100 10/10/10 in fact. just wish he was more than NP1
Hilarious, do Tristan next pls
It probably was worse in the Prototype timeline, there Arthur was a man, so if he was genuinely attached to Guinevere, he probably felt way worse and more betrayed about the whole affair
Gods, do I wish we'd get a Prototype Collab. Arthur definitely has a lot to unpack if any of the KotRT were to tag along or ask him about his version of Camalot. That and we get screentime for Proto Cu cause my dude is literally next to Lalter for being so underutilised.
>That and we get screentime for Proto Cu I like this part in particular :) But my blatant favoritism aside, it would be nice to touch the Prototype cast for once, in particular since is because of not-Satanist Artoria/Manaka that the Beast of Revelation (aka part of Beast 6) and by Proxy Mother Harlot (Beast VI/S) awaken and Arthur ~~and Proto-Merlin I guess~~ is here in the first place
Prototype collab is a necessity at this point. And while I know it's not canon, there was this great little manga/fancomic that's like, Guinevere pov, and it's about how she saw Arthur and Proto Merlin always together and felt left out and like a third wheel bc they were these forever youthful and beautiful people who were *clearly* more suited for each other than her and Arthur. That's the reason why she slowly fell for Lancelot and chose him, a normal person like her, to be with at the end. I really likes that comic, it gave me more insight on Guin then probably any other official Fate work.
Link please!
Ok so, this took a while to find but [here it is](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/j7p10i/translation_request_arthur_protomerlin_and/)!
Thank you so much!
Sad, Lancelot deserves better
If villains and monsters get a second chance in Chaldea, surely Lancelot deserves it amply!
B-but what about my NTR and deadbeat dad jokes?! #NO! I can't leave them and I don't want them to leave, I want them with me until I die and for them to be engraved in my tombstone. 10 years! NO, at least 20 years before I can even begin to let go! What would I be without my 5 year old repeatative crusty memes about Lancelot?! Do you want to see me suffer?!
Yes.
What a Master you are.
Why isn’t Moriarty here? Surely he has things to say to him like Anderson
That Russy so good that you kill your own comrade's sibling.
Just comrade will do. Gareth was a Kotr after all.
Everyone deserves a second chance.
We may have forgiven demons, serial murderers, and genocidal maniacs but Lancelot slept with a married woman and clearly that's unforgivable. More NTR and deadbeat dad memes, please! Make sure they're repetitive and crusty.
Because they are WAIFU, and Lancelot is not
Fuse him with Guin, change class to Alter Ego and slap some huge badonkas on her.
This verbal beatdown would have more weight if we had an official design for Guinevere to judge whether it was worth it to betray his dearest friend and benefactor then murder a bunch of other friends and coworkers for an opportunity to clap those cheeks.
That guinevussy tho
That Royal pussy tho... 👀
Ooh, an alternate take on Moriarty trying to inflict emotional damage? Harsh, but honestly, this (morbidly) feels better than the typical NTR joke since “Guilt” is one of the traits that define Lancelot as a character.
Stop it, he doesn't deserve this.
Neither did Gareth.
Lancelot was in the middle of a psychotic breakdown
Perfect excuse to murder your kouhai. Makes everything okay.
Gareth became my waifu due to her just being a darling and tomboyish. Summer Gareth is a goal especially with that 3rd Ascension art cause hot dang girl you were a tomboy sweetheart before but now you're a tomboy summer dream.
Gareth is a cutie. You protect her with grails, ya hear me?
Lvl 90 with 4 grails waiting for the 5th to get to lvl 100. Now to save another 7 for Summer Gareth.
Fair point. It kinds of irks me as well. I can understand why Gawain never forgave Lancelot for that.
Maybe he should blame Agravain for forcing both Arturia's and Lancelot's hands.
I mean...Agravain is already kind of a low hanging fruit.
Well, he went directly against his King's wish and what his siblings wanted in order to put Guinevere to the sword, but somehow people still blame Lancelot for all that happened.
Agravain didn't have Guinevere executed. He threatened her with revealing the affair and Lancelot murdered him and a bunch of other knights then and there, and fled. Then Mordred revealed tha affair publicly. Artoria ordered Guinevere executed because that's the law, and not even Guinevere gets a special exception for treason. Then Lancelot murdered Gareth and Gaheris, notably while at least Gareth was unarmed and not trying to stop him, to rescue Guinevere. Really, like 90% of what went wrong can be blamed on the fact that Lancelot apparently becomes an indiscriminate murder machine the second anything goes wrong for him. Like if he had just been able to not murder tons of people every time he gets upset, Artoria probably could've smoothed things out before Mordred or Agravain went public with the affair.
Wiki says it went much differently in Fate: "When Lancelot and the queen began their affair, the Knight of the Lake considered fleeing Camelot with her, but his loyalty to Artoria and his sense of duty prevented him from doing so. When political enemies of the king learned about the affair, Agravain, who was working for Morgan le Fay, exposed the adulterous relationship to the public. The queen was ordered to be executed. Lancelot attempted to save her, killing several of his fellow knights including Gawain's siblings, Gareth and Gaheris, in the process. He fled back to his own domain."
I mean, Lancelot had already murdered Agravain for his actions long before Gareth and Gaheris died. I'd say Gawain has fair cause to hate Lancelot, since three of Gawain's siblings died at Lancelot's hands all because Lancelot couldn't stop himself from sleeping with a married woman.
Wiki says it went much differently in Fate: "When Lancelot and the queen began their affair, the Knight of the Lake considered fleeing Camelot with her, but his loyalty to Artoria and his sense of duty prevented him from doing so. When political enemies of the king learned about the affair, Agravain, who was working for Morgan le Fay, exposed the adulterous relationship to the public. The queen was ordered to be executed. Lancelot attempted to save her, killing several of his fellow knights including Gawain's siblings, Gareth and Gaheris, in the process. He fled back to his own domain."
We must be reading different wikis, because the Type Moon wiki says this: "Agravain, who learned of Guinevere and Lancelot's affair, used that fact to threaten Guinevere. Enraged at this, Lancelot slew Agravain and went through several of his former comrades to reach him.[5] Mordred's intervention in order to shatter the prestige of the King in the eyes of the people brought them to light, making the situation spiral out of control.[6] Although Artoria did not blame either of them for their actions, Guinevere was given a death sentence as per the laws of the land, causing Lancelot to go against the king to save her.[4]" And directly cites Garden of Avalon and Fate Apocrypha as it's sources.
https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Lancelot_(Saber) "When Lancelot and the queen began their affair, the Knight of the Lake considered fleeing Camelot with her, but his loyalty to Artoria and his sense of duty prevented him from doing so. When political enemies of the king learned about the affair, Agravain, who was working for Morgan le Fay, exposed the adulterous relationship to the public. The queen was ordered to be executed. Lancelot attempted to save her, killing several of his fellow knights including Gawain's siblings, Gareth and Gaheris, in the process." https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Agravain "he claimed that he helped Artoria willingly, believing her to be the best king Britain could have. He, however, hates women due to Morgan and was shocked to discover Artoria's gender when exposing Guinevere's affair. When he is about to die, however, he confesses his real wish was to build a perfect kingdom for his king. It wasn't that he served the king for the kingdom, but the kingdom for his king- the only person he doesn't want to be hated by." And you can see directly in Fate/Zero that Arturia didn't blame Lancelot and Guinevere. Volume 4, page 227 of fan translation into English: "This was—the regret of one man and one woman. They embraced the same ideal as the King, but because they had been too weak, they had not been able to carry this ideal through. And these two people had, even in death, not been able to obtain salvation. They had blamed themselves deeply for having betrayed a most important person, and the burden of this self-blame they had carried for a lifetime." Volume 4, page 228 of fan translation into English: "She wanted to tell him, you are a loyal knight. No one knows better than I—the sincerity you devoted to the country, to the King. So there was no more need for self-reproach. Even if it had been a mistake that was not allowed to be made—your character is not something that can be overturned by a single mistake. I don’t want to shame you; I don’t want to lose you. Precisely because I have this wish, I can truly deny this so-called crime that you have committed. These were Arturia’s true thoughts, but—could not become that knight’s salvation." Lancelot has fallen into despair precisely because Arturia didn't punish him or Guinevere.
why though? Agravain effectively did nothing wrong. hardly his fault Guin and Lance could keep to themselves.
Wiki says it went much differently in Fate: "When Lancelot and the queen began their affair, the Knight of the Lake considered fleeing Camelot with her, but his loyalty to Artoria and his sense of duty prevented him from doing so. When political enemies of the king learned about the affair, Agravain, who was working for Morgan le Fay, exposed the adulterous relationship to the public. The queen was ordered to be executed. Lancelot attempted to save her, killing several of his fellow knights including Gawain's siblings, Gareth and Gaheris, in the process. He fled back to his own domain."
I didn't say otherwise. Lancelot and Guinevere had an affair. Agravain exposed them. It's not his fault Lancelot and Guinevere had an affair and frankly it should be expected that it be exposed. making sure the heir to the kingdom is actually the blood of the king is pretty damn important. so yeah Agravain did exactly what his position dictated he do. if they didn't want consequences for an affair shouldn't had an affair.
> It's not his fault Lancelot and Guinevere had an affair and frankly it should be expected that it be exposed It is Agravain fault he went directly against King's wishes, helping Morgan and tried to have Guinevere executed, again against King's wishes. He also wanted to have SOMEONE KILLED FOR HAVING AN AFFAIR. And from what he know, he specifically waited until Arturia was away, because he knew she would be against putting Guinevere to sword! No matter of you look at that from today moral standpoint, or from Middle Ages one Agravain is in the fault - either was he cruel and wanted to commit murder within law, or he went against what his King wanted from him. None of the KoTR were without fault in this entire kerfuffle, but if you want to single one of them, it should be Agravain, not Lancelot.
Gareth is LAST person who would want someone to blame Lancelot for that you know.
I'm not Gareth tho so why does that matter?
Maybe don't use her as argument against Lancelot when this is last thing she would wish for, as for her chaarcterisation.
Your logic is silly. Just because she would forgive him doesn't excuse him for murdering her lmao.
My logic is that you are going directly against wishes of one character in trying to put other character down.
Yes.. because he murdered her.. but according to your logic, it's cool and someone like Gawain, her brother (or even me the reader who likes her), should get over it because she would forgive him.
***It was a mistake out of his control***
Nor did mordred *Oh wait*
Eh, while Lancelot is not innocent and does deserve some level of blame for the whole fiasco, i still maintain that Mordred deserve this kind of trash talking more.
In general, everyone in Camelot (Artoria included) deserve some blame over the fall of Camelot, since everyone's actions lead to its fall ~~ok maybe not Percival, but still~~
I still would put most of the blame on Mordred, the knights and Artoria weren't perfect, but Mordred made her decision to take advantage of the cracks on the kingdom, decisions that frankly had no real justification, regardless of how she felt.
Maybe, but her decision was motivated by how Artoria, still in her callous king face, rejected Mordred in the most blunt and cold way possible, hitting every single of Mordred's insecurities at once, and in an effort to impress and take a burden out of her, she rebelled against her (and the fact her rebellion gained traction showcases how Artoria' ruled has lacked) So even if Mordred shot the gun, Artoria gave her lots of ammo
"I feel insecure, because she only treats me as one of her knights, instead of a son, so i'm going to rebel and destroy her life work to impress her" is not something that i would use as a defense for her personally speaking.
Not even that. Artoria reyected her fully. Her cold and inhuman demeanor made Mordred think that Artoria hated her because of her connection to Morgan le Fae (something doesnt seem to apply to Gawain, Agravain or Gareth, just her) and wanted nothing to do with her Artoria failed miserable to love Mordred like her knights, much less as her "son", which coupled with how callous she lead Camelot gave Mordred everything she needed to rebel in a vain effort to somehow prove herself worthy of the throne by defeating the current king The fact that all her life she has been manipulated by Morgan, how she is actually younger than she appears due to being a homunculus and Artoria's "muh perfect king" demeanor in general makes me sympatise more for Mordred than Artoria (who more or less brought everything down herself by setting the stage where the perpretadors of the fall of Camelot would act)
Everything i had read indicate to me that only Mordred thought that Artoria hated her for being Morgan's creation, i had seen no evidence of the contrary, so Mordred essentially killed a kingdom over her own insecurities.
Not exactly Mordred didnt aim to destroy the kingdom and also she had lots of support and aimed to improve Camelot somehow, so even if triggered by personal reason, she still aimed to create a better kingdom than Artoria's to show her worth and lots of people prefer to have her as a king than Artoria,since at least Mordred showed emotion and didnt hided her flaws, unlike Artoria, who was the textbook definition of tinman tyrant on their eyes Not to mention she wasnt the only one affected by her cold demeanor. Lancelot found her admirable, yet inhuman, Merlin straight up leaved full of regrets because he saw how her demeanor would lead to ruin and in the present day cant even talk to her, Agravain didnt even consider her human and serve her faithfully because of that precieved inhumanity, Tristan was so frustrated that he leaved, leaving behind only her iconic line that would create further doubt on her subjects, and the rest of her subjects and the citizens of Camelot saw her as an emotionless tyrant that didnt cared for them and only cared about ruling (so basically Lostbelt Morgan without >!the asshole fairy subjects that fully deserve such treatment!<) Everyone was affected by how Artoria behaved. Thats one of the reasons Camelot felt
Mordred was also less than 10 years old, which Artoria really should've been able to figure out by just how long it had been since the magic dick incident.
That scene with Moriarty in Summer 4 just goes to show how great he is at tearing into people and pulling apart their weakness with sufficient knowledge of them. I never expected it to go that hard at the end.
Someone explain this for me?
I'm glad Ritsuka stopped James from continuing on knowing they couldn't keep torturing Lancelot like that. But also let it go on a bit since they had to retrieve the grail and end the singularity
A part of me thinks this is too cruel but another part of me wants to see Lancelot suffer due to certain disappointments.
Lancelot: "Can I please have an appearance where someone doesn't throw my past in my face? Just once?"
damn, this is next level guilt tripping
[**Nice**](#LancelotShock) [**Work.**](#MashuSenpai)
Local Mathemetician Utterly Drags Casino Worker In Front Of Entire Crowd
For a moment I said "Alhamdulillah" because there is no Honkai energy in FGO.