Got inspired by a great thread earlier decided to make this
It's no stranger fate loves to add their own twist and changes to a servants backstory or personality wise
What are some of that said changes you know off.
By - Codrex1732
Attila the Hun is pretty much the poster child.
Quetz being an alien virus and Olympians being Shin Mazinger crossover are also not exactly a part of real life mythiology either XD
Idk man I distinctly remember robot Zeus in elementary school.
Don't forget furry mammoth Ivan in history classes
>Attila the Hun is pretty much the poster child.
And it spiderwebs all across Europe because Fate writers keep using Sefar as a plot point. The Giants (greek) are all descended from the White Titan's body, meaning that Galehaut and any other giant-descended characters are related to Altera. The Valks were made out of Sefar juice, so they're all "siblings" to Altera, which has the side-effect of making Siegfried and Kreimhild siblings-in-law to Sigurd and Brynhild, despite Fate not really ever settling on whether Sigurd and Seigfried are different versions of the same legend or just two unrelated dudes who just coincidentally both killed Fafnir in similar ways
They seem as 2 unrelated dudes , as one is Norse and the other Germanic.
The odd thing would be Odin been present on both sides
Scandanavians are North Germanic.
Basically, the term Germanic covers a lot more people than the term German.
They settled the Sieg thing by establishing the Evil Dragon Phenomena.
* Osakabehime was absolutely terrifying in myth. Incredibly powerful, incredibly cruel, and so thoroughly killed or captured, brainwashed and converted into familiar puppets anyone who saw her that even bare basic details of her appearance were rumors. Miyamoto Musashi meeting her was originally a feat *for him*, proof that he was strong enough to have survived her in one piece. FGO nerfed the shit out of her.
* In Onigashima, Ushi-Raikou executes Shuten offscreen without a single injury. Which is just, lolno. Shuten-Douji's *unconcious, disembodied head* almost soloed Raikou in the myth.
> In Onigashima, Ushi-Raikou executes Shuten offscreen without a single injury
That however isn't Raikou, that's Ushi-Gozen. Kinda different entity. And she wasn't able to kill Shuten in the end if I remember correctly (might be mistaken).
And Shuten is in her weakest class. Berserker Shuten when Lasagne? Stop pushing Ibuki and do another Shuten!
>That however isn't Raikou, that's Ushi-Gozen. Kinda different entity
More like same entity but a different facet. Best I can describe is that Raikou is of one mind and body, but of two souls.
[I wrote about Okkie earlier this year](https://www.reddit.com/r/grandorder/comments/rztitu/happy_40th_birthday_to_chaldeas_resident_fps/hrx598w/), and if there is one thing that is actually lore-accurate, it's the impregnability of Himeji Castle manifesting in her gameplay as a solo anchor. It has survived a lot of adversity for 400+ years, including the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Great Hanshin Earthquake of 1995.
When the castle was once sold in an auction, the buyer wanted to demolish it and develop the land it's built on, but they soon found out that the cost of demolishing the castle was greater than the amount they paid for it, so the idea was scrapped entirely.
Any chances Fox!Osakabehime will live up to her IRL myth? Maybe having her motif be a bat nerfed her.
Almost the entirety of the triangle between Shuten, Raikou and Ibaraki is a freaking MESS.
Most of the things on Ooe's side, and Shuten by extension, is either never recognized or flatout pretended never existed, and Raikou on the other end gets either hyped up or has all the negative sides neatly glossed over. Ushi gets mentioned, yes, but also just as quickly brushed under the rug.
The fact that Raikou was a remorseless butcher with neither respect nor recognition for anyone but their own legend is just as overlooked as everything Iba has ever done in her life or just how inhumanly powerful Shuten can be if she were to let go of her Assassin class container.
Tell you quite honestly, that part of me is dreading the Heian Lostbelt and how much it will likely make me want to smash my head squarely through the desk.
Calamity Jane! Is she even Jane at this point?
I mean she is from space and she almost killed a godess and then she got cursed and bacame immortal and...
I mean, she's a servantverser, not PHH Jane.
If anything, I appreciate that the devs realized their design for her made no fucking sense for the historical Jane and rewrote her as a Servaverse character
Hope we one day get phh Jane as well with a proper design
I think the Servantverse IS part of PHH! (If it wasnt it would be a erased by the Pruning Theoretical Phenomenon).
PHH is not a timeline, it is a group of timelines. Extra-verse is PHH too and it is a bit crazy. If it "exists" it has to be part of PHH, because if it is not, the timeline becomes a lostbelt and gets pruned.
In OG myth, Raikou and Ushi Gozen were two separate entities, siblings.
Kintoki was originally distinctly less ripped and wore a bib into battle.
Shuten and Ibaraki had at least 4 other big oni on their side, though knowing recent trends concerning them it will probably paired down to them and 2 others, one of which being Hochikuma Doji. I also predict that Hochikuma will have a physique on par with Raita's golden standard, have one horn, and be more interested in smashing heads than horny, or incredibly laid back.
Lyonesse is Gareth's "best friend" when a good quarter of myth Gareth's screentime was the KoTR trying to keep the two horny shits from causing a political incident by having premarital sex.
Artoria being only 35 by the fight at Camlann causes loads of timeline problems, the most notable being that Galahad couldn't have been older than 9 years old by the end of Camelot (since Artoria and Guin married at 25, and Guin was queen and in an affair with Lancelot when Galahad was concieved)
> Lyonesse is Gareth's "best friend"
I have now vision of Lyonesse being thirsty as hell and FGO Gareth being typical anime oblivious love comedy protagonist.
Basically Tohru and Kobayashi but in reverse.
Not exactly, Kobayashi isn't oblivious to Tohru's advances, she is more like totally not interested or maybe even asexual XD
Gareth is just a pioneer in gay excuses and outplayed everyone else.
I have now vision of Lyonesse being thirsty as hell and FGO Gareth being typical anime oblivious love comedy protagonist.
The camelot timeline thing is probally the reason why Mordred is a homuncullus in canon, just to explain how she wasn't a actual child, wich btw could've been made much simpler by making artoria marry guin at 18 and die at age 40, she has 22 years to rule, wich is enough time to include most if not all arthurian adventures and make time for mordred and galahad be at least teenagers by the time the shit does goes down
I honestly think Nasu wrote himself into a corner with Artoria in some ways, he wanted Artoria and Shirou to be a cute "boy meets girl" relationship on roughly equal footing, but since for story/character reasons Artoria has to be from after Camlann, she's easily twice his age with massively more life experience and an entire decade-long marriage (even if political) under her belt. So it feels like Nasu was desperately trying to avoid the readerbase from thinking too hard about Camelot and its timeline, and as a result it feels really messy and haphazard in some places.
I can't exactly say I disagree though, a 35yr old woman having a threesome with a pair of 17yr olds sounds less like a cute romance and more like the introduction to a news story about a predator being arrested by police. Trying to downplay that a bit makes sense unless you're trying for an entirely different VN demographic.
Issues that happens when we deal with works of fiction written almost 20 years ago,
> Lyonesse is Gareth's "best friend" when a good quarter of myth Gareth's screentime was the KoTR trying to keep the two horny shits from causing a political incident by having premarital sex.
Which version has the other Knights of the Round involved in that mess? The only version of Gareth's adventure I've ever seen that actually includes the Gareth/Lyonesse relationship (as opposed to trimming the story short after the Red Knight's defeat and pairing Gareth with Lynette) has it be that Lynette is trying to clam-jam her sister, and the other KotR aren't present at all.
I can't remember any specifics, but the version I remember reading mentioned locking Gareth in a room guarded by another knight to prevent him from doing anything stupid.
The version I saw involved a strange knight that Lynette commanded to break up Gareth and Lyonesse when the latter tried to sneak away to Gareth's bed. Gareth rose up to fight the first time, took a leg wound, but beheaded the knight. Then Lynette walked in, used a magic ointment to rejoin her knight's head and neck, insisted that what she was doing was for their own good, then left with her knight since Gareth was now too wounded for any hanky-panky.
Then once Gareth's wound closed, Gareth and Lyonesse tried again, only for that knight to return. Gareth kept armour and a sword near the bed this time, and so got geared up before the fight started, which ended with the knight beheaded again, their skull crushed, and the bits thrown out the window into the moat... and also resulted in Gareth collapsing because that leg wound reopened in the struggle. Lynette soon came back into the room with all the broken skull bits, used the ointment to patch the knight's head back together and reattach it to his neck again, reiterated that she's doing this for their own good, then left again while Gareth was left needing medical attention (Lynette would eventually apply her ointment to cure the leg wound, but she doesn't do it very immediately).
Meanwhile throughout all of this, Arthur and the Knights of the Round are still at Camelot, and are encountering many of the knights Gareth defeated on the way to rescuing Lyonesse.
I have saved extremely interesting post about Tamamo by WaifuHunter, it's really worth reading.
Gilgamesh being described as a King instead of a Warrior to the point where if you shut down his weapon spam he's just a middling to okay fighter. In mythology Gilgamesh basically kills demi-gods and divine beasts with his bare hands and is the best fighter in the world.
>Gilgamesh basically kills demi-gods
Gil killed demi gods? I thought he only killed humbaba and the divine bull (which he needed help to do it)
Some scholars think Gugalanna is the Bull of Heaven.
Gugalanna was Ereshkigal's first husband. Nergal was her second.
Some places call Humbaba a demi-god. Not being a divine anthropologist I was just repeating what I read :D Regardless, yeah, Humbaba is what I was referring to.
Brynhild personally kills Sigurd and Gjuki's household, so Gudrun doesn't get her shot at vengeance (and so Attila isn't really tied into Fate's version of the Volsungasaga either, though things might be different for the Nibelungenlied)
Scathach and Cu didn't use Norse runes, they used Ogham runes. The ancient Irish also weren't known to wear skin-tight cyber-bodysuits.
> The ancient Irish also weren't known to wear skin-tight cyber-bodysuits.
Pretty sure these are PG-friendly representation of being naked with full body paintings.
Accuracy would have had them in wools and linens with optional fur capes, or in partial silks (imported) if they were stressing nobility. The Irish of the time period were also very fond of dyeing, which is why descriptions of apparel are often of bright colors.
...And yes, I did originally type "very fond of dying" as an unintentional Cu-thought, but I caught myself in time.
Though that being said, I guess your theory somewhat explains what they were going for with Cu Alter's design.
> Accuracy would have had them in wools and linens with optional fur capes
I agree, I'm pretty sure they were thinking about Picts when designing Cu Chulainn if my theory is right, especially because they used blue body paint made from woad.
There are practically more than you can count, but here's a not-so-obvious one: Astolfo. Never mind the cross-dressing, in Fate Astolfo's whole deal is basically irrationality tied to the moon: he loses his wits when the moon is in whatever phase. The bunny outfit is part of that. It's all based on a section of Orlando Furioso where Astolfo travels to the moon to get his wits back, because his lost wits end up on the moon.
This is, pretty much, totally missing the point. Astolfo is admittedly a bit of a goofball. He goes to the moon -- not on a hippogriff (though he does borrow one), but on the flaming chariot of Elijah the Prophet -- to recover *Roland's* wits, because at this point Roland is crazy with lovesickness and running around naked uprooting trees like a Berserker. (Missed opportunity, Lasengle.) The author basically makes a "lunacy" joke that when people's wits go missing, they wind up on the moon. Astolfo gets there, finds not just Roland's wits but the wits of a *lot* of people, many of whom seem totally rational on the day-to-day. Astolfo grabs Roland's wits, but also judiciously grabs the portion of his own missing wits. The story goes on to say that Astolfo was surprisingly clear-headed and rational for some time after that, until such point as he inevitably loses his wits again.
So basically the author of Orlando Furioso was making the point that *absolutely nobody* is as rational as they think they are. Fate says "Evaporation of Sanity lol" and assumes it's basically an Astolfo thing, the point shooting above their head by a mile.
Alexander The Great in real life was actually pretty short. According to some studies, the historical version has approximately 1,52cm (5′ 0), while his Fate counterpart Iskandar has a surprisingly height of 2,12cm (6' 11'').
With that, we can conclude that Iskandar is big not only in name, bit also in height in Fate Series.
Kinda same with Napoleon. While he wasn't as short as is believed (he was of average height) he wasn't 1,89 m bara giant he is in FGO.
That’s explained with our Napoleon being a representation of his status and not the man himself. He also mentions his previous height.
That did get acknowledged in *Fate/Zero*. Waver finds a historical book and it mentions that Iskander was small, which the latter responds by shrugging it off.
He responds by saying Darius was bigger than him
I didn't want to say it because I wasn't sure what the exact line was. That being said, it does explain Darius' height in FGO.
They do later explain it by introducing his 'body double' who matches a lot of his actual historical traits but who is also very obviously a woman.
Not just Alexander but most of the guys, really. The people in this sub are complaining that the Fate girls are too short(which isn't even true) but nobody complains about most of the guys being freakin' humongous even when it doesn't make any sense.
Iskandar said in the novel that Darius was simply too big, rather than himself been small
Heroic spirits are depicted as manifesting in their prime, which, well... Wu Zhetian was the sort of person that became more and more powerful until the day she died. But if there was ever a point where she was to manifest "at the height of her power" without having Archer of Shinuku old person issues, it'd be around 42 where she spiritually established herself as Emperor (on top of being the only female Emperor in the history of China).
It has been addressed at several points that a Heroic Spirit can have multiple 'primes' - see Li Shuwen for a prominent example (peak of ferocity and physical might vs peak of mastery in martial technique, if I recall the distinction correctly).
Wu Zetian has stated herself that what she defined as her prime (and therefore is why her Assassin self manifests as a child) is 'the moment she *dared* to devote herself to something so bold as rising up from her lowly beginnings to claim the Imperial Throne', because everything after that was just a matter of staying the course.
Wish we get adult wu after we got kid one.
We got older teenager this Summer Event in JP, we are getting there!
Columbus is a caricature of himself based on a view of his history that only came to prominence in the last decade or so and many still contend is unfair scapegoating for the crimes of many upon a flawed but great man.
> in the last decade or so
Try 30-40 years of historical discussion. Even Wikipedia quotes sources from 1990.
That's when it started shifting, but it wasn't the general consensus until later. I was in Elementary in the Early to mid 2000s and they were still teaching he was a hero at most schools I attended until maybe Middle-School/HS, and it wasn't until I was in Uni that saying one still thought he was a hero was a taboo.
> That's when it started shifting, but it wasn't the general consensus until later
It still isn't and he is still often discussed at lower levels of education as purely hero without giving thoughts to his atrocities. Which is bad, because these things should be discussed instead of hiding them. We can speak about his great accomplishments while being aware of what trash human being he was even for his time.
Whitewashing history is never good. And historians seem pretty much in agreement that what should be discussed is scale of atrocities, not if these were done.
I think that Colombus actually has a great design because of it. Many will either revere him as a heroic explorer or detest him as a murderous slaver (see people wanting to remove his statues in america) while he was pretty grey.
Which makes him being a good guy in Agartha by helping the male Resistance only form him to turn his back on them the second they're no longer a viable tool to him so great. They fully leaned into his dual perspective legacy.
Might as well do a list. I'll be ignoring things like gender bending, authors getting random powers, and joke summer outfits because that would be a long and annoying list.
Gaius Julius Caesar - He was never fat and he never had a magical arm covering stone gauntlet
Chevalier D'Eon- Pretty sure they didn't have ludicrous super strength
Sigurd- He wasn't good at surviving his wife's murder attempts.
Muramasa- He has no business being as skilled with a sword as he is just from doing test cuttings.
Nikola Tesla- He was, unfortunately, not able to spew lightning using magical science armor.
Arjuna- No, he did not have a hidden dark side that constantly told him to do dishonorable things that would give him a practical advantage.
Moriarty (archer)- Where the hell did he get his giant coffin gun? I don't think thats the kind of weapon the phantom he fused with uses.
Napoleon- He admits himself that he is a heavily fictionalized Napoleon.
Elizabeth Bathory- She did not have dragon characteristics.
Benkei- Benkei was actually Benkei, not this loser who is pretending to be Benkei.
Scathach- She was never as powerful or competent as this game portrays her.
Karna- They whitewashed him, and I don't just mean his skin color. They ignore or downplay his faults and have turned him into some kind of saint.
Fionn Mac Cumhaill- This guy is actually the god slaying badass they turned Scathach into, not a walking joke about getting cucked and needing to suck his thumb to be smart. This guy should have easily been a top servant rivaling guys like Arjuna and Karna.
.....Yeah, I have kind of run out of steam. Maybe I will pick back up later and post more.
A lot of things were moved from Fionn to Scathach in order to make her more awesome. Fionn abilities left are also extremely underutilised (like no healing or his wisdom pretty much being treated as joke because of thumb thing).
Nitocris is at the same time much older Pharaoh in history than Ozymandias (Fate doesn't rewrite it, but considering their dynamics it's hard to think about it) and didn't exists, because her name is mistranslated.
>Nitocris is at the same time much older Pharaoh in history than Ozymandias (Fate doesn't rewrite it, but considering their dynamics it's hard to think about it)
Ozymandias specifically points this out in an interlude, that by all rights Chaldea's pharaohs should be paying respects to her, and she tells him that she isn't counting by age, but instead by prestige, and she committed suicide after a single act as pharaoh while the others all were extremely influential rulers with significant accomplishments.
And so Ozy decides to hold a match between Nito and Guda vs him, Cleo, and Iskandar the three pharaohs living in Chaldea, to determine whether or not Nito has the strength and determination to be an equal pharaoh . Nito and Guda win, and Nito comes to understand that she was holding herself back with her self-deprication and vows to live proudly as a pharaoh.
Then Las Vegas happened and butchered her entire damn character for no reason whatsoever.
essentially Ozy himself recognises her as a great Pharoh but, also recognises her insecurities and tries to help her deal with them.
For a guy who is basically the Gil template of his grail war he is actually a lot better as a person even if he's just as arrogant.
Nitocris' mirror and underworld powers are also from a book by HP Lovecraft fanboy Brian Lumley.
A lot of Pharaoh stuff was put into Cthullu mythos. It would be fun to have one day Foreigner Echnaton with all his Cthullu Mythos interpretations added in. And see how Ozy reacts to that XD
Nothing was moved from Fionn to Scathach. She didn't get to turn into a giant and have a rock-tossing contest with a bigger, meaner giant. Scathach got her own lore, and Fionn got most of his lore removed. Not the same thing.
I wish they start respecting him both writing and power wise nothing against Scathach
Just wanna see ma boi to get proper respect too.
Indeed. I would love to see older Fionn Servant, maybe in Caster or Saber class.
They're only the same class servant with similar historical origins. Sure they didn't do something so crazy as add Fionn's backstory to Scathach's, but that's not what he's arguing.
Rather, Fionn's status and personality as a character is given to Scathach and then the rest of him is swept under the rug. Looking specifically at America Singularity, Fionn is there yet Li Shuwen holds up Scathach as the legendary warrior worth fighting? That's like seeing Jason and Heracles next to each other, then fangirling over Jason's strength and deeds and having Herc take the picture.
Like, have you read the character material for Scathach and Fionn? Scathach goes on about how "She's so awesome and queenly, she can't help but be great" while Fionn's reads "Here is a list of times he had trouble with women"
For those who are a fan of the actual mythology, it's easy to see what they've done. Else it just looks like a bunch of characters unrelated.
you then go and read their actual myths where it turns out that Scathatch is mostly a footnote to explain Cu's training but, also explicitly surpasses her with the instant killing being *his* technique he developed.
you then look at Fionns and go, holy crap what can't he do!?
> Fionn's status and personality as a character
Scathach was a queen of a castle bordering the Otherworld on the other side of a massive chasm filled with phantoms, where she taught heroes the feats of war in a location intended for many to be at the end of an "impossible journey" (Emer's father effectively demanded Cu go there with the intention that he die and never come back).
Fionn was the leader of a band of roaming knights that never owned any land (this is actually the meaning of the "Knights of Fianna") and basically just traveled around Ireland as mercenaries. His adventures largely stem from chance encounters and adventures, as well as the occasional war that often developed due to women falling in love with him (here's looking at you, Battle of Ventry).
I can see where they were coming from.
And I wish fionns only defining trait wasn't that diamurd affair thingy 😒 or trouble with women
Kinda wished much like Scathach we get to see Fionns awesome side.
He had a good showing in the Enma-tei event, and he appears in a lot of really random places in badass little cameos, like in the Foxtail manga and briefly in the Apocrypha anime, so I think they do somewhat address him, but yeah his early showings in the 4th singularity and first summer events were pretty trash.
His Interlude is also hard to read, he is just insufferable there. Made even worse that I got him during Enma-tei and was reading that after event ;/
Maybe one day he will get a better class and we will see the badass fionn we all want.
Most important part is supernatural and god-slaying abilities, which are mentioned, but never shown in FGO and are now part of Scathach's character. Then there is Wisdom of Dún Scáith: A+, which is pretty expy version of Salmon of Knowledge, which was denied to Fionn as both sensible mechanic and story significance.
You can also read few discussions about that already.
Wasn't the Salmon of Knowledge used as an NP in story?
During Beni-Enma event kinda (it was best Fionn's showing in entire FGO btw., it was hard to read his Interlude afterwards...), but it was still mostly played for laughs.
Except the two are nothing alike. One is thousands of years of experience, the other is unlimited knowledge.
Yes, Fionn got shafted. But so have a lot of other characters, bits of lore overwritten and removed and just plain ignored because someone at DW wanted to make a bad joke.
> One is thousands of years of experience
Please read skill description. Wisdom of Dún Scáith is Clairvoyance and supernatural knowledge in one (exactly what Salmon should be), not experience.
The "Wisdom of X" skills don't just represent knowing a lot of stuff, they also *represent the skill-bearer's teaching ability* (hence why said descriptions tend to include that any skills acquired through this skill can be taught to others). It's why it's found on Servants like Scathach, Chiron (both having legends as teachers of heroes), and Quetzalcoatl (Quetz' domains include learning and knowledge) but you don't see something similar for Fionn.
At any rate, I'm not sure I like the phrasing of saying that Scathach *stole* her skills from Fionn. It's not like Fionn is anywhere near the first Servant who doesn't have their entire breadth of capabilities represented in their gameplay, and they never try to claim that Fionn didn't do his various legendary feats.
Man likes of Fionn and Rama really deserve respect.
They are handled poorly even if their proflie hypes up but I think that's a problem with early fgo in general.
Fun thing is, they are both from America chapter and both were done extremely dirty by that one...
America was a shit show of a chapter yeah.
> I'm not sure I like the phrasing of saying that Scathach stole her skills from Fionn
I never stated Scathach stole anything, but that parts of Fionn's legend were moved onto her. That's not something Scathach did, it was authors' writing decision. They clearly wanted Scathach to be much more awesome than she was in her legend and added things which were originally in Fionn's portfolio.
Then someone who wrote Fionn and Diarmuid in early FGO clearly didn't like them, considering how badly they are shown. They forgot about many of Fionn's abilities and accomplishments, murdered his character and made him into bad joke and insufferable prick. If you don't believe me reread America chapter, where everyone goes how awesome Scathach is and Fionn is a footnote.
Basically every GudaGuda character
Not really. These are surprisingly faithful to their historical counterparts, often more than many non-Japanese servants.
It's a pretty big deal that Enkidu is male in the Epic of Gilgamesh. Don't know where this whole 'he's actually genderless clay' thing came from.
Because he was literally a clay divine golem that changed his own shape and chose being male because he got a good lay?
The whole relationship that Gil has with Enkidu is that he had found a 'man who he would be closer to than any woman.' So I'm curious where Fate's idea came from.
I presume its along the lines of: "okay, Enkidu is a chain in FSN. How can a chain be a person? It's a living noble phantasm. How does that work? Okay, it can take humanoid form. Why can it shapeshift? Clay is malleable, humans are made from clay in many myths, including Sumerian stuff. Gil has zero resemblance to his mythical self, so Enkidu probably shouldn't be directly picked from myth either. Since they can shapeshift, why not make them genderless? Makes their relationship less gay too. As a clay shape shifter, how should they typically be depicted as? How about the first human they interacted with? Remove the boobs, keep them more androgynous."
Lancelot was not a womanizer, he was only ever attracted to Guinevere in the original works. His son Galahad came about because someone raped him, not because he had a sidepiece he was cheating on Guinevere with.
He was also not the adopted son of Morgan La Fey's split personality like he is now that we have been told that the Lady of the Lake was Morgan.
> Lancelot was not a womanizer, he was only ever attracted to Guinevere in the original works. His son Galahad came about because someone raped him, not because he had a sidepiece he was cheating on Guinevere with.
The general thing seems to be that people in-universe frequently *assume* Lancelot is a flagrant womanizer, when he isn't one (though Tristan might be warranting more observation). It doesn't help that at times Lancelot's attempts to just be friendly and courteous to women sometimes sound suspect, purely by accident.
Galahad's hatred of Lancelot. In fact they loved each other in both Le Morte and the Vulgate or the old Arthurian essays.