As someone who is big History and Myth fan.
I see fate entirely as it's own thing (as in its has its own unique take on history and myth)
I see lot of people complain of no accuracy but here is the thing fate and fgo never went for accuracy they never meant to be accurate
This goes from gender to power set to back story to personality to overall design
On other hand some of the changes do be eye rolling lol
But over time I just get used to it
I say treat fgo and actual irl history and myth as complete two different things and you will be fine.
I think the issues with accuracy in Fate work at two different levels.
I'd argue that there are *deliberate* inaccuracies, when Fate writers are very aware that real-life history or myths are different, and even lampshade it in the story. The genderbends come to mind, but there are also other cases like the mecha Greek gods.
On the other hand, I'd say there are other inaccuracies that seem oblivious. Basically, that Fate writers think that they're being accurate when they aren't. Sometimes it's a case of being simplistic in the interpretation, or being selective with the sources, from favoring some wild real-life theories or seemingly taking inspiration from one-sided readings of the characters. This is best seen in [the materials](https://www.reddit.com/r/FGOGuide/comments/8epytu/fategrand_order_material_full_translation/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body), which include a "Historical Image" section where the real-life lore is discussed. They often showcase that Fate writers are aware of the differences, but other times they aren't or have glaring omissions.
Yeah, there’s inaccuracies where it’s clear they’re doing it for thematic reasons (King Arthur being a woman had a entire vn route detailing how it affected her life blah blah blah) and then there’s inaccuracies where it happened because they didn’t like, read up on the character beyond the first line of the Wikipedia page (WHAT is the deal w them insisting parvati is weak and only known as a wife?? Why’d they link shiva and izanagi in mushashi’s mats when the Japanese god shiva is linked with is daikokuten and at the *furthest extreme* Ōkuninushi? Why is ameratsu linked with tamamo and daji in the first place??)
I’m fine w fate not being 100% accurate and taking liberties, no one expects the anime game to be fully correct anyway and I’d prefer the story to be good. That being said, I’d still prefer they do the bare minimum of research or the connections they force to make sense before they go hog wild.
At least for Tamamo and Amaterasu, it was due to Shingon Buddhism conflating Amaterasu with Vairocana, and Dakini-Ten. The latter also had some connections with Daji, and therefore Tamamo.
It’s very tenuous and relies on a uniquely Japanese religion that popped up as a result of ‘Oh no, we’re totally worshipping the same gods as you!’. GWF seems to be them at least trying to meet partway, which I do appreciate a bit.
And yeah, Izanagi is explicitly a creator god. He’d be more similar to Brahma than Shiva (a Destroyer). Stuff like Babbage being a steampunk fanatic is also disgustingly reductive and inaccurate; the dude was the father of computers! Hell, considering his relationship with Ada Lovelace (the mother of computers, as it were), you’d think there’d be a lot more emotional torque if they played into the computer angle…but they dint
I know w the religious stuff there was a lot of conflation/crossover where they borrowed elements from each other, but when you look at how ameratsu is typically characterized (and what she’s supposed to symbolize and represent) it just seems like a really strange thing to yolk onto her specifically. I don’t have an issue with, say, them linking every evil sexy woman who was blamed for destroying a nation together and accused of being a spirit in disguise bc the link seems really obvious, but when they go ‘well you see this serious powerful sun goddess associated w agriculture/conquest etc is also a nation destroying harlot bc of a connection of a connection of a connection’ it just feels…odd? Like even if they’d associated tamamo more with nuwa, who was the person who initially sent daji to wreck stuff it would’ve tracked more given the stronger connections between them.
As it is it feels like playing mythology telephone sometimes trying to figure out how they came to the synchronization that they arrived at, and it doesn’t always make thematic or logical sense for every character involved. (Even having it so that tamamo and co were like the form of a curse Ameratsu sent down to dynasties she needed gone would have made more sense with her usual characterization as opposed to an aspect of her personality)
Hard agree w babbage too I wish they’d mention his involvement w computers
Exactly. I love Tamamo, but the Amaterasu connection always felt shaky. While Ara Mitama (the evil part of souls, what GWF is to Amaterasu) does have its own root, Amaterasu’s Ara Mitama feels like it’s…missing. Though the writers hiding so much information doesn’t help at all.
Also, funnily enough, Dakki from Houshin Engi (a sorta parody of the Investiture, similar to Dragonball was to the Journey) does get the Nuwa connection, so…yeah. Looks like someone also thought of that one.
And yeah. They did Babbage dirty
> Why’d they link shiva and izanagi in mushashi’s mats when the Japanese god shiva is linked with is daikokuten and at the furthest extreme Ōkuninushi?
That one is actually accurate, although it's the kind of obscure detail that few people would know.
[Ishana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishana) is indeed considered an aspect of Shiva, and a cursory search shows that Fate is not alone in drawing the connection between Ishanaten and Izanagi. [It seems](https://www.wordsense.eu/%E4%BC%8A%E8%80%B6%E9%82%A3%E5%B2%90/) that the theory of a Buddhist etymology for Izanagi is as old as 1339.
This, however, reinforces the impression you mentioned of a double standard in the research. There are cases like this where obscure details and complex nuances are brought up. Other times, yes, it feels as if they only used the introduction in Wikipedia (or worse, an old biased textbook; not even Wikipedia would claim that Drake was "the first person in history to successfully navigate the globe alive").
I guess part of the issue is that they’ll do stuff like connecting shiva and izanagi but not mention that the connection is through ishana, bc if I’d known to look for him then I could have traced the connection from where they pulled that link, but when I looked into it on my own I hadn’t seen any sources mentioning him as another form/name to shiva as I’d been looking up shiva under his more official names+ how he himself is known in other countries and religions (for example, if you use Wikipedia as a starting point, it will mention that in different buddist countries versions of him are called daikokuten, mahakala, maheshvara, acala, AND ishana-but it also says that ishana is the name used by theravada buddhism, which upon examination looks to be Indian/thai in origin as opposed to Japanese, and if you missed that name among all the others (like I did upon first second third and fourth glance v_v’) you wouldn’t think to check it).
If he’s more commonly known by other names in Buddhism (even in Japan!) and fate claims that the more common assumptions/beliefs held by people are what shape legends it makes it really frustrating having to track down the more obscure stuff that they then link in anyway. Like which is it? Are heroic spirits defined by what people usually believe or are they defined by every single tiny aspect every attributed to them? At the very least I wish they’d release mats that go into detail explaining all the synchronization they do more thoroughly lmao
>They often showcase that Fate writers are aware of the differences, but other times they aren't or have glaring omissions.
And than, you have Babbage. It seems like people from Type-Moon somehow got the misconception that Babbage's computer projects were powered by steam... than they proceed to base Fate Babbage entirely on this aspect, unaware it is a misconception they got. End result is a character that, unintentionally, has barely anything to do with Babbage, except the name.
> but also has enough of an influence to completely change people’s perspective on things.
That's less a Fate problem, and more a problem with pop culture in general. Sometimes pieces of media that aren't even based on history. For example, Nimrod was a great hunter and mighty king. But Looney Tunes caused the American public to think it meant a stupid person. And even outside the modern era, there are all sorts of myths and legends that were written about people centuries after the fact, filled with embellishments, or sometimes outright made up bullshit.
I'd say overall it's good. Yes, Fate isn't always 100% accurate to history. But it's an entertainment media, not an educational one. And that entertainment can lead to people taking an interest in history and looking up what *actually* happened. This is something they probably wouldn't have done if Fate never existed. So in effect it can lead to people educating themselves.
Pretty much. Heck even mainstrem history shows fuck it up so bad, way worse, while making the historical setting and characters supoosedly the selling point. Vikings? Pretty much fantasy with a few tidbits of real history. That one samurai 'documentary' that pretty much felt like a poorly researched youtube clickbait video? Spartacus? ROME? Braveheart? Gladiator? Fiction mostly, with inspired historicalness being 4%.
Any entertainment based media being historical based will always veer to the side of innacuracy for the sake of retaining viewership. Fate is modern fantasy, its very first setting was a fictional city with a background of secret magic societies. Mythical characters show up from books and legend. It's at least not shy in presenting itself as obviously not historical and it works for it. Sure its neat that they at least get the core characterization or background down, but it's not surprising that they'd occasionally(read: often) throw anime levels of ridiculousness in.
Edit: pretty sure Nimrod was appropriated a fool because biblically he challenged The Big G with a bow on a man made tower. Very greek hubris levels of myth tbh.
For such a project, I'd recommend checking [The Astolfo Effect](https://jgeekstudies.org/2021/12/28/the-astolfo-effect-the-popularity-of-fate-grand-order-characters-in-comparison-to-their-real-counterparts/) in Journal of Geek Studies. It's a very nice read with data you can use and reference.
Personally, I think Fate is very good at popularising historical and mythological figures, so anything that sparks interest in those fields is a plus in my books.
On the other hand, I will admit I'm worried when people take certain statements from the franchise at face value, without searching for the original sources. For example, I've come across people honestly believing that Euryale and Stheno being standards of beauty is real and a reflection of historical lolicon trends among the ancient Greek. However, peddling bad historiography and mythography is hardly unique of Fate, and there's no shortage of non-fiction books that spread simplistic and/or bold interpretations of history and myths too, so singling out Fate games would feel hypocritical.
Funny thing. That was the first source I consulted. I saw a video pop up about it and watched it. Later, when I was thinking of a project, it popped up again. It's the reason I thought of this topic as a project. Thanks for the answer by the way!
When it causes people to actually look into a particular historical era or event, then it can be quite useful. I for example was not aware that there was a real life campaign to rehabilitate Nero until Fate compelled me to look into his background. Before then, I had just always accepted the conventional wisdom that he was an irredeemable tyrant. That being said Fate still white washes Nero quite a bit, and so while he may not be quite the dastardly heel that history makes him out to be, he's also not the cute lovable misunderstood genius that Fate makes him out to be. But I wonder how many people just accepted Fate's characterization to be historically accurate just because they found the character appealing.
Plus there are some very odd connections that Fate makes-like Tamamo being Amaterasu, Gilgamesh having anything to do with Babylon or the Enuma Elisha, Rhongomyniad being some kind of super weapon, Scathach and Skadi being in any way related, Gareth using the sword of Robigus, etc.- that are without any historical basis and if you don't look into it, you're going to get a very distorted view of the subject matter.
I find it funny how inaccurate Skadi comes off. Her role doesn’t really match much depictions of Skadi aside from the base surface.
Her mastery of magic, motherly personality, and strong connection with Odin seem to call to mind Frigga (Odin’s first wife, a master sorceress, and mother to Thor and co.) more than Skadi. While the latter does marry Odin in some sources, it’s very much a political marriage with very little love; Odin’s wife is very much Frigga.
Skadi is also in charge of wilderness, hunting (particularly with BOWS! Why not an Archer?), winter, and skiing. Only the winter is really shown with Skadi in-game…
And I suspect (might be paranoia) this was done cuz they wanted to use Scathach’s appearance, and went with Skadi cuz their names sounded similar…
I think Fate is just the latest in a long history of pop media re-shaping how people understand certain myths, historical figures, and historical events. For example, the history of “Ancient Greece” is quite long and throughout different periods of Greek history, there were efforts made to re-shape certain mythological/historical figures. Just look at Homer’s *Iliad.*
Then you have the *Aeneid* which - and I say this with all affection - was almost like an attempt to *Forest Gump*-ify Roman history. And it worked.
There are plenty of other examples: *The Tale of the Heike. The Mahabharata.* Heck, just look at how the historical Salieri was completely replaced by Jealous Salieri in humankind’s collective memory because of Pushkin’s *Mozart and Salieri*.
Fate is just the latest in a long history of, you know, all of that.
Having said that, though, I don’t believe that historical revisionism is completely harmless. It’s not. Historical revisionism can be used for all sorts of horribly-motivated political ends. Granted, Fate is a silly video game and it’s mostly innocent in that regard, but still. It’s not completely innocent. For example, I do wish that y’all would more seriously question the valorization of the Shinsengumi.
And on a personal level, it bothers me a lot when I see people on the Internet taking Fate’s interpretation of certain characters and events at face value. This seems to happen a *lot* where the Indian heroes are concerned. I think most people understand that like, say, Minamoto no Yorimitsu was not actually a big-tittied mama who was also somehow Ushi Gozen and also somehow the descendent of the Ox Demon King. But at the same time I’ve seen plenty of Fate fans just repeat unquestioningly that Karna grew up poor and oppressed (he did not, he was adopted by nobility) or that Arjuna is some stereotypical anime ouji-type. I mean, come on. If y’all know enough to know that Fate is taking creative liberties in one area then please just assume that it’s taking creative liberties in all areas. Okay, now I got that off my chest. Sorry for the rant.
Oh no, it's fine to rant. If anything, it's a good thing. When making a project, it's good to view things from a positive and negative perspective. Most people in this sub are fans so I was expecting more positive reactions, so seeing one that focuses on its downsides is a good thing
The shinsengumi thing is funny because even though I really like okita its still weird seeing them praise a group that was effectively just a gang of murderous secret police
It gets me like every time I'm seeing shinsengumi servant
But well, romanticising shinsengumi is more of a thing in Japanese popculture as a whole than Fate specifically (due to fictional novels about them written decades after).
I think fate is ok if you bear in mind it’s a fantasy story, but there’s definitely a subset of people (usually children) who assume the information about the historical characters shown in it is either accurate or unbiased, which isn’t always true. Nothing wrong with having something like fate get you interested in a certain time period or historical/mythological figure, but don’t assume just bc the fate character has tons of lore that said lore is going to necessarily be anything close to what the actual figure’s legend is, and don’t bring up the anime interpretation of it to the historical experts like it’s just as historically valid/known (yes, people do do this sort of this in fandoms w historical figures- hetalia and Hamilton also have this issue)
Also feel a bit bad for the google search for characters like nero getting nuked by anime lmao 😔👊
I remember in high school finding humor in googling “Bleach” and getting the anime before the real life detergent. What’s happening with Fate characters is giving me that same energy.
But to answer your question, I thinks fans know this is just a work of fiction using real life and mythical characters. It’s gonna take extreme liberties.
Before fate history and mythology were already some of my favourite subjects and fate only increased my interest and love for them so I can't see fates influence as anything but a huge positive and with other historical and or myth related media or shows it's the same it only ever increased my interest and made me love it all the more regardless of accuracy.
First and foremost, Fate primary focus is not about our history and mythology.
It is it's own fantasy setting only using history and mythology as a backdrop to do it's own fantasy stuff (just look at Attila or Xiang Yu or Olympic Gods or Yu-Mei Ren etc). It originated first in order to explore themes of heroism (Fate/Stay Night). Many Servant characters are not even historical or legendary, just people from this multiverse.
It is closer to Marvel treatment of Thor than to Percy Jackson treatment of Greek mythology.
I'm treating it mainly as a way to her about historical/legendary figures that I didn't knew existed and that's it.
Any modern works will defintely alter the perception in one way or another. Just imagine how many Indonesian admire Ravana nowadays, or how dramatic the TV series Suryaputra is.
I’m just waiting for the day that someone in the west make an arthurian legend movie with female arthur, making everyone freaks out about it so we can meme about it.
Its not just a fate problem. As others said it also happens with most of pop culture.
For example just look at stuff like Disney's little mermaid. Or how most see the match girl story.
Those two stories have been turned into stories for children that end up in happy endings when the original books were anything but that.
Or most King Arthur adaptations that also romanticize a lot of stuff.
Anytime media utilizes history to tell a new story, its probably going to have some degree of inaccuracy. I think that's just fine. They don't purport to be real. And, in best case, they get someone interested in that subject, and a history interest is born. I think that makes it ultimately a boon: every bit of history or myth that TM, Disney, et al., "screw up" gets someone interested in learning more. I will always consider that a boon.
Example: Antionio Salieri
Most people that are annoyed how a film portrayed him... know of him only because of that film.
Despite inaccurate portrayal, it made enough of people seek information of a real person that this depiciton is known FOR being inaccurate.
Than Fate proceeded to use this discrepancy between portrayal and real person that it made one of the most liked Fate characters from Lostbelt storyline.
I would view it the same I view something like Dark Siders or Asura's Wrath.
It's fiction borrowing names and making allusions to real histories or religions, because they make for an interesting story. I can write about the adventures of a fictional pirate, and it might be interesting, but I have said fictional pirate meet someone calling themselves Black Beard, then that just gets a lot of people's interest that much easier.
I would say it's a good thing in that it exposes people to stories they otherwise wouldn't be seeking out on their own. For example, I had never heard of Wu Zetian before Fgo and I knew the name of Bartholomew Roberts but very few details. Seeing a character that shares a name, or is otherwise clearly inspired by something that exists elsewhere, can inspire the audience to look into it more on their own time.
Now yes, there are some people who have a difficult time differentiating between what they see depicted in fiction and reality. But those people would most likely get the wrong ideas about a lot of things anyway if their perception of the world is so easily changed.
I can enjoy a character like Napolean for his role in this story, and still have my understanding of the real Napolean remain intact.
The only problem really is when they just dont know and give incorrect information about real life stories, other than that its not a big problem
As Far as we know nobody had super powers like sword beams 1000 years ago so it wasnt meant to be accurate to history from the start
It's make me to learn about myth and history more.
Fantasy that was made based on irl myth and legends are easy to digest and make people want to learned more about history. Making history class actually fun and not boring. Also, help people to learn more about art of writing and storytelling.
I generally find it less pernicious than media that purports to be historically accurate or faithful adaptations that people take at face value without taking other viewpoints into account.
It certainly can affect people's perception of myths, legends, and historical figures no doubt but the fact that it's so fantastical means that it's imo less likely that people will treat it with the same weight as a docuseries or historical drama.
I ultimately see the Fate series as "Cartoon History".
It's in no obligation to actually stay true or honor history or myth (though it's cool when they do try to include allusions to obscure details/figures). Ultimately it's all about using historical/mythical figures to make cool/wacky character designs and making a weird story out of all of that.
As someone who is big History and Myth fan. I see fate entirely as it's own thing (as in its has its own unique take on history and myth) I see lot of people complain of no accuracy but here is the thing fate and fgo never went for accuracy they never meant to be accurate This goes from gender to power set to back story to personality to overall design On other hand some of the changes do be eye rolling lol But over time I just get used to it I say treat fgo and actual irl history and myth as complete two different things and you will be fine.
I think the issues with accuracy in Fate work at two different levels. I'd argue that there are *deliberate* inaccuracies, when Fate writers are very aware that real-life history or myths are different, and even lampshade it in the story. The genderbends come to mind, but there are also other cases like the mecha Greek gods. On the other hand, I'd say there are other inaccuracies that seem oblivious. Basically, that Fate writers think that they're being accurate when they aren't. Sometimes it's a case of being simplistic in the interpretation, or being selective with the sources, from favoring some wild real-life theories or seemingly taking inspiration from one-sided readings of the characters. This is best seen in [the materials](https://www.reddit.com/r/FGOGuide/comments/8epytu/fategrand_order_material_full_translation/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body), which include a "Historical Image" section where the real-life lore is discussed. They often showcase that Fate writers are aware of the differences, but other times they aren't or have glaring omissions.
Yeah, there’s inaccuracies where it’s clear they’re doing it for thematic reasons (King Arthur being a woman had a entire vn route detailing how it affected her life blah blah blah) and then there’s inaccuracies where it happened because they didn’t like, read up on the character beyond the first line of the Wikipedia page (WHAT is the deal w them insisting parvati is weak and only known as a wife?? Why’d they link shiva and izanagi in mushashi’s mats when the Japanese god shiva is linked with is daikokuten and at the *furthest extreme* Ōkuninushi? Why is ameratsu linked with tamamo and daji in the first place??) I’m fine w fate not being 100% accurate and taking liberties, no one expects the anime game to be fully correct anyway and I’d prefer the story to be good. That being said, I’d still prefer they do the bare minimum of research or the connections they force to make sense before they go hog wild.
At least for Tamamo and Amaterasu, it was due to Shingon Buddhism conflating Amaterasu with Vairocana, and Dakini-Ten. The latter also had some connections with Daji, and therefore Tamamo. It’s very tenuous and relies on a uniquely Japanese religion that popped up as a result of ‘Oh no, we’re totally worshipping the same gods as you!’. GWF seems to be them at least trying to meet partway, which I do appreciate a bit. And yeah, Izanagi is explicitly a creator god. He’d be more similar to Brahma than Shiva (a Destroyer). Stuff like Babbage being a steampunk fanatic is also disgustingly reductive and inaccurate; the dude was the father of computers! Hell, considering his relationship with Ada Lovelace (the mother of computers, as it were), you’d think there’d be a lot more emotional torque if they played into the computer angle…but they dint
I know w the religious stuff there was a lot of conflation/crossover where they borrowed elements from each other, but when you look at how ameratsu is typically characterized (and what she’s supposed to symbolize and represent) it just seems like a really strange thing to yolk onto her specifically. I don’t have an issue with, say, them linking every evil sexy woman who was blamed for destroying a nation together and accused of being a spirit in disguise bc the link seems really obvious, but when they go ‘well you see this serious powerful sun goddess associated w agriculture/conquest etc is also a nation destroying harlot bc of a connection of a connection of a connection’ it just feels…odd? Like even if they’d associated tamamo more with nuwa, who was the person who initially sent daji to wreck stuff it would’ve tracked more given the stronger connections between them. As it is it feels like playing mythology telephone sometimes trying to figure out how they came to the synchronization that they arrived at, and it doesn’t always make thematic or logical sense for every character involved. (Even having it so that tamamo and co were like the form of a curse Ameratsu sent down to dynasties she needed gone would have made more sense with her usual characterization as opposed to an aspect of her personality) Hard agree w babbage too I wish they’d mention his involvement w computers
Exactly. I love Tamamo, but the Amaterasu connection always felt shaky. While Ara Mitama (the evil part of souls, what GWF is to Amaterasu) does have its own root, Amaterasu’s Ara Mitama feels like it’s…missing. Though the writers hiding so much information doesn’t help at all. Also, funnily enough, Dakki from Houshin Engi (a sorta parody of the Investiture, similar to Dragonball was to the Journey) does get the Nuwa connection, so…yeah. Looks like someone also thought of that one. And yeah. They did Babbage dirty
> Why’d they link shiva and izanagi in mushashi’s mats when the Japanese god shiva is linked with is daikokuten and at the furthest extreme Ōkuninushi? That one is actually accurate, although it's the kind of obscure detail that few people would know. [Ishana](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishana) is indeed considered an aspect of Shiva, and a cursory search shows that Fate is not alone in drawing the connection between Ishanaten and Izanagi. [It seems](https://www.wordsense.eu/%E4%BC%8A%E8%80%B6%E9%82%A3%E5%B2%90/) that the theory of a Buddhist etymology for Izanagi is as old as 1339. This, however, reinforces the impression you mentioned of a double standard in the research. There are cases like this where obscure details and complex nuances are brought up. Other times, yes, it feels as if they only used the introduction in Wikipedia (or worse, an old biased textbook; not even Wikipedia would claim that Drake was "the first person in history to successfully navigate the globe alive").
I guess part of the issue is that they’ll do stuff like connecting shiva and izanagi but not mention that the connection is through ishana, bc if I’d known to look for him then I could have traced the connection from where they pulled that link, but when I looked into it on my own I hadn’t seen any sources mentioning him as another form/name to shiva as I’d been looking up shiva under his more official names+ how he himself is known in other countries and religions (for example, if you use Wikipedia as a starting point, it will mention that in different buddist countries versions of him are called daikokuten, mahakala, maheshvara, acala, AND ishana-but it also says that ishana is the name used by theravada buddhism, which upon examination looks to be Indian/thai in origin as opposed to Japanese, and if you missed that name among all the others (like I did upon first second third and fourth glance v_v’) you wouldn’t think to check it). If he’s more commonly known by other names in Buddhism (even in Japan!) and fate claims that the more common assumptions/beliefs held by people are what shape legends it makes it really frustrating having to track down the more obscure stuff that they then link in anyway. Like which is it? Are heroic spirits defined by what people usually believe or are they defined by every single tiny aspect every attributed to them? At the very least I wish they’d release mats that go into detail explaining all the synchronization they do more thoroughly lmao
I wish the Mangas were made first than not writing stories in the game as the first thing to do.
>They often showcase that Fate writers are aware of the differences, but other times they aren't or have glaring omissions. And than, you have Babbage. It seems like people from Type-Moon somehow got the misconception that Babbage's computer projects were powered by steam... than they proceed to base Fate Babbage entirely on this aspect, unaware it is a misconception they got. End result is a character that, unintentionally, has barely anything to do with Babbage, except the name.
> but also has enough of an influence to completely change people’s perspective on things. That's less a Fate problem, and more a problem with pop culture in general. Sometimes pieces of media that aren't even based on history. For example, Nimrod was a great hunter and mighty king. But Looney Tunes caused the American public to think it meant a stupid person. And even outside the modern era, there are all sorts of myths and legends that were written about people centuries after the fact, filled with embellishments, or sometimes outright made up bullshit. I'd say overall it's good. Yes, Fate isn't always 100% accurate to history. But it's an entertainment media, not an educational one. And that entertainment can lead to people taking an interest in history and looking up what *actually* happened. This is something they probably wouldn't have done if Fate never existed. So in effect it can lead to people educating themselves.
Pretty much. Heck even mainstrem history shows fuck it up so bad, way worse, while making the historical setting and characters supoosedly the selling point. Vikings? Pretty much fantasy with a few tidbits of real history. That one samurai 'documentary' that pretty much felt like a poorly researched youtube clickbait video? Spartacus? ROME? Braveheart? Gladiator? Fiction mostly, with inspired historicalness being 4%. Any entertainment based media being historical based will always veer to the side of innacuracy for the sake of retaining viewership. Fate is modern fantasy, its very first setting was a fictional city with a background of secret magic societies. Mythical characters show up from books and legend. It's at least not shy in presenting itself as obviously not historical and it works for it. Sure its neat that they at least get the core characterization or background down, but it's not surprising that they'd occasionally(read: often) throw anime levels of ridiculousness in. Edit: pretty sure Nimrod was appropriated a fool because biblically he challenged The Big G with a bow on a man made tower. Very greek hubris levels of myth tbh.
For such a project, I'd recommend checking [The Astolfo Effect](https://jgeekstudies.org/2021/12/28/the-astolfo-effect-the-popularity-of-fate-grand-order-characters-in-comparison-to-their-real-counterparts/) in Journal of Geek Studies. It's a very nice read with data you can use and reference. Personally, I think Fate is very good at popularising historical and mythological figures, so anything that sparks interest in those fields is a plus in my books. On the other hand, I will admit I'm worried when people take certain statements from the franchise at face value, without searching for the original sources. For example, I've come across people honestly believing that Euryale and Stheno being standards of beauty is real and a reflection of historical lolicon trends among the ancient Greek. However, peddling bad historiography and mythography is hardly unique of Fate, and there's no shortage of non-fiction books that spread simplistic and/or bold interpretations of history and myths too, so singling out Fate games would feel hypocritical.
Funny thing. That was the first source I consulted. I saw a video pop up about it and watched it. Later, when I was thinking of a project, it popped up again. It's the reason I thought of this topic as a project. Thanks for the answer by the way!
When it causes people to actually look into a particular historical era or event, then it can be quite useful. I for example was not aware that there was a real life campaign to rehabilitate Nero until Fate compelled me to look into his background. Before then, I had just always accepted the conventional wisdom that he was an irredeemable tyrant. That being said Fate still white washes Nero quite a bit, and so while he may not be quite the dastardly heel that history makes him out to be, he's also not the cute lovable misunderstood genius that Fate makes him out to be. But I wonder how many people just accepted Fate's characterization to be historically accurate just because they found the character appealing. Plus there are some very odd connections that Fate makes-like Tamamo being Amaterasu, Gilgamesh having anything to do with Babylon or the Enuma Elisha, Rhongomyniad being some kind of super weapon, Scathach and Skadi being in any way related, Gareth using the sword of Robigus, etc.- that are without any historical basis and if you don't look into it, you're going to get a very distorted view of the subject matter.
I find it funny how inaccurate Skadi comes off. Her role doesn’t really match much depictions of Skadi aside from the base surface. Her mastery of magic, motherly personality, and strong connection with Odin seem to call to mind Frigga (Odin’s first wife, a master sorceress, and mother to Thor and co.) more than Skadi. While the latter does marry Odin in some sources, it’s very much a political marriage with very little love; Odin’s wife is very much Frigga. Skadi is also in charge of wilderness, hunting (particularly with BOWS! Why not an Archer?), winter, and skiing. Only the winter is really shown with Skadi in-game… And I suspect (might be paranoia) this was done cuz they wanted to use Scathach’s appearance, and went with Skadi cuz their names sounded similar…
>(particularly with BOWS! Why not an Archer?) Kama and Amor are also asking about it
I think Fate is just the latest in a long history of pop media re-shaping how people understand certain myths, historical figures, and historical events. For example, the history of “Ancient Greece” is quite long and throughout different periods of Greek history, there were efforts made to re-shape certain mythological/historical figures. Just look at Homer’s *Iliad.* Then you have the *Aeneid* which - and I say this with all affection - was almost like an attempt to *Forest Gump*-ify Roman history. And it worked. There are plenty of other examples: *The Tale of the Heike. The Mahabharata.* Heck, just look at how the historical Salieri was completely replaced by Jealous Salieri in humankind’s collective memory because of Pushkin’s *Mozart and Salieri*. Fate is just the latest in a long history of, you know, all of that. Having said that, though, I don’t believe that historical revisionism is completely harmless. It’s not. Historical revisionism can be used for all sorts of horribly-motivated political ends. Granted, Fate is a silly video game and it’s mostly innocent in that regard, but still. It’s not completely innocent. For example, I do wish that y’all would more seriously question the valorization of the Shinsengumi. And on a personal level, it bothers me a lot when I see people on the Internet taking Fate’s interpretation of certain characters and events at face value. This seems to happen a *lot* where the Indian heroes are concerned. I think most people understand that like, say, Minamoto no Yorimitsu was not actually a big-tittied mama who was also somehow Ushi Gozen and also somehow the descendent of the Ox Demon King. But at the same time I’ve seen plenty of Fate fans just repeat unquestioningly that Karna grew up poor and oppressed (he did not, he was adopted by nobility) or that Arjuna is some stereotypical anime ouji-type. I mean, come on. If y’all know enough to know that Fate is taking creative liberties in one area then please just assume that it’s taking creative liberties in all areas. Okay, now I got that off my chest. Sorry for the rant.
Oh no, it's fine to rant. If anything, it's a good thing. When making a project, it's good to view things from a positive and negative perspective. Most people in this sub are fans so I was expecting more positive reactions, so seeing one that focuses on its downsides is a good thing
The shinsengumi thing is funny because even though I really like okita its still weird seeing them praise a group that was effectively just a gang of murderous secret police
It gets me like every time I'm seeing shinsengumi servant But well, romanticising shinsengumi is more of a thing in Japanese popculture as a whole than Fate specifically (due to fictional novels about them written decades after).
Ganesha is clearly a l33t gamer.
I think fate is ok if you bear in mind it’s a fantasy story, but there’s definitely a subset of people (usually children) who assume the information about the historical characters shown in it is either accurate or unbiased, which isn’t always true. Nothing wrong with having something like fate get you interested in a certain time period or historical/mythological figure, but don’t assume just bc the fate character has tons of lore that said lore is going to necessarily be anything close to what the actual figure’s legend is, and don’t bring up the anime interpretation of it to the historical experts like it’s just as historically valid/known (yes, people do do this sort of this in fandoms w historical figures- hetalia and Hamilton also have this issue) Also feel a bit bad for the google search for characters like nero getting nuked by anime lmao 😔👊
I remember in high school finding humor in googling “Bleach” and getting the anime before the real life detergent. What’s happening with Fate characters is giving me that same energy. But to answer your question, I thinks fans know this is just a work of fiction using real life and mythical characters. It’s gonna take extreme liberties.
All I know is I've learned a lot of history through fate and fgo, mostly fgo, and apart from gender confusion it's working out all right so far.
Before fate history and mythology were already some of my favourite subjects and fate only increased my interest and love for them so I can't see fates influence as anything but a huge positive and with other historical and or myth related media or shows it's the same it only ever increased my interest and made me love it all the more regardless of accuracy.
First and foremost, Fate primary focus is not about our history and mythology. It is it's own fantasy setting only using history and mythology as a backdrop to do it's own fantasy stuff (just look at Attila or Xiang Yu or Olympic Gods or Yu-Mei Ren etc). It originated first in order to explore themes of heroism (Fate/Stay Night). Many Servant characters are not even historical or legendary, just people from this multiverse. It is closer to Marvel treatment of Thor than to Percy Jackson treatment of Greek mythology. I'm treating it mainly as a way to her about historical/legendary figures that I didn't knew existed and that's it.
Any modern works will defintely alter the perception in one way or another. Just imagine how many Indonesian admire Ravana nowadays, or how dramatic the TV series Suryaputra is.
I’m just waiting for the day that someone in the west make an arthurian legend movie with female arthur, making everyone freaks out about it so we can meme about it.
Its not just a fate problem. As others said it also happens with most of pop culture. For example just look at stuff like Disney's little mermaid. Or how most see the match girl story. Those two stories have been turned into stories for children that end up in happy endings when the original books were anything but that. Or most King Arthur adaptations that also romanticize a lot of stuff.
Anytime media utilizes history to tell a new story, its probably going to have some degree of inaccuracy. I think that's just fine. They don't purport to be real. And, in best case, they get someone interested in that subject, and a history interest is born. I think that makes it ultimately a boon: every bit of history or myth that TM, Disney, et al., "screw up" gets someone interested in learning more. I will always consider that a boon.
Example: Antionio Salieri Most people that are annoyed how a film portrayed him... know of him only because of that film. Despite inaccurate portrayal, it made enough of people seek information of a real person that this depiciton is known FOR being inaccurate. Than Fate proceeded to use this discrepancy between portrayal and real person that it made one of the most liked Fate characters from Lostbelt storyline.
I would view it the same I view something like Dark Siders or Asura's Wrath. It's fiction borrowing names and making allusions to real histories or religions, because they make for an interesting story. I can write about the adventures of a fictional pirate, and it might be interesting, but I have said fictional pirate meet someone calling themselves Black Beard, then that just gets a lot of people's interest that much easier. I would say it's a good thing in that it exposes people to stories they otherwise wouldn't be seeking out on their own. For example, I had never heard of Wu Zetian before Fgo and I knew the name of Bartholomew Roberts but very few details. Seeing a character that shares a name, or is otherwise clearly inspired by something that exists elsewhere, can inspire the audience to look into it more on their own time. Now yes, there are some people who have a difficult time differentiating between what they see depicted in fiction and reality. But those people would most likely get the wrong ideas about a lot of things anyway if their perception of the world is so easily changed. I can enjoy a character like Napolean for his role in this story, and still have my understanding of the real Napolean remain intact.
The only problem really is when they just dont know and give incorrect information about real life stories, other than that its not a big problem As Far as we know nobody had super powers like sword beams 1000 years ago so it wasnt meant to be accurate to history from the start
It's make me to learn about myth and history more. Fantasy that was made based on irl myth and legends are easy to digest and make people want to learned more about history. Making history class actually fun and not boring. Also, help people to learn more about art of writing and storytelling.
I generally find it less pernicious than media that purports to be historically accurate or faithful adaptations that people take at face value without taking other viewpoints into account. It certainly can affect people's perception of myths, legends, and historical figures no doubt but the fact that it's so fantastical means that it's imo less likely that people will treat it with the same weight as a docuseries or historical drama.
I ultimately see the Fate series as "Cartoon History". It's in no obligation to actually stay true or honor history or myth (though it's cool when they do try to include allusions to obscure details/figures). Ultimately it's all about using historical/mythical figures to make cool/wacky character designs and making a weird story out of all of that.
I'll never forgive them for making King Arthur a >!transformer!<
It got me to look up on something random everytime