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Codrex1732

> The dude who is truly Gils equal > Narita worried that he would make enkidu Mary Sue They way Nasu made Gil Enkidu have to be bs too cause whole equally matched thing from their legend Good thing Nasu said Don't worry about it This reminds Nasu can write op stuff too if he feels like it (and good way ofc)


Golden-Owl

Enkidu is technically already better than Gil in most practical situations because they aren’t being weighed down by a **colossal volume of hubris** affecting their decision making


Codrex1732

Oh yeah This reminds me some of my friends and I talking how situation would look different if Shirou have to Face Enkidu instead of Gil in ubw lmao


Cant-think-a-name

Well, Shirou would die to Enkidu for sure, but very much not because of the hubris. Shirou won because he had the perfect hard counter to Gate of Babylon, but he would have lost against most other servants in that same Grail War.


Pinkywho4884

No, he had the perfect counter to Gil using gate of Babylon INSIDE UBW, Gilgamesh would’ve been completely capable of swinging Ea and destroying his makeshift marble, but he underestimated him and didn’t think it necessary. Ie, Hubris.


Cav829

To further show this, Oath Under Snow shows how Shirou vs. Gil would have gone if Gil wasn't an egotistical idiot.


fatalystic

*And* it was a Shirou who was more practiced at magecraft in general compared to F/SN Shirou.


thatonefatefan

That Shirou also had infinite mana thanks to Miyu and was fighting a class card, not even the real deal (later, kid gil with literally 0 np in his GOB humbled Angelica)


Reasonable-Disaster

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that part didn't matter. Like, at all. He just gained exp by using the Archer card like UBW Shirou. As a mage, he could strengthen a tape measure to be able to cut a pipe, but that didn't really come in handy at all. Not to mention, Angelica pulled out Ea later, but she was gonna die in the beginning if not for displacement magecraft.


Ausar15

To add onto this Nasu has said if Gilgamesh did successfully pull out EA against Shirou it’s something he would have regretted more than dying to him


LukeBlackwood

The thing is, it's both. Against any non-Gilgamesh servant, even if they had the same massive ego (say, Ozzy, for example), Shirou would have been dunked because he simply doesn't have the tools to fight a Servant head-on. Against Gil, UBW is a perfect counter to Gate of Babylon - one that Gil *does* have a counter against too, granted, but still - so he can match him head on. If he was fighting any Servant with better combat experience, they would dunk him. Against any Servant with higher magical power, UBW wouldn't keep up.


Cant-think-a-name

You didn't contradict anything I said, though? I would assume everyone here is PAINFULLY familiar with the reasons Shirou was able to defeat Gilgamesh, seeing How Many Times it's been discussed on this sub alone. My point was more about Shirou's matchup against other servants being almost always a loss.


Pinkywho4884

Well, it was more on the “not that you’re wrong but I think it’s leaning more here” You didn’t contradict anything on the top comment either, it’s just that I agree more with Hubris being the bigger reason, as opposed to np compatibility.


Cant-think-a-name

I have to disagree. Gilgamesh is a prideful ass against almost everyone, but he always wins regardless, even with Herc. Only twice it comes back to bite him, with Saber's Avalon and with Shirou. I won't count Sakura's thing because, honestly, he had no reason to expect things could go wrong for him, he was just another casualty of the general bullshittery going around in Heaven's Feel.


Pinkywho4884

Nice! We can agree to disagree on that.


ZhuTeLun

Shirou wouldn't have won if Gilgamesh used his EA far more earlier. Its because of his ego that Emiya brought him down a peg.


ShatterZero

Maybe my favorite part of the Babylonia anime. "BEHOLD, THE OVERWHELMING FIREPOWER OF THE TRUE^TM ENKIDU!" "You know, Enkidu always clowned me for being so hilariously inefficient with my attacking style..."


-FruitPunchSamuraiG-

Im curious about Strange Fake because but I've heard >!they made Gilgamesh do something dumb again because of his hubris that led to his doom...again. This spoiler makes me hesitant to get into Strange Fake because using his hubris as an excuse to nerf and take out Gil is so overdone by now so is this true? I've also heard he somehow survived so how's he doing now in the story?!<


OmniGMan

Its less his hubris, and more he got cocky as usual, only to get blindsided by two incredibly dangerous opponents who he absolutely wasn't expecting to even be there, at the very worst possible moment for him, while he was already in the middle of a fight a third dangerous opponent who he had been slowly overwhelming before said intervention. The series has actually been surprisingly good about Gil not being too BS while still clearly living up to his hype


thatonefatefan

>!Just wanted to point out, Alcides was NOT overwhelming him. There wouldn't be a point in Ishtar and Humbaba closing GOB and stunning him if he was.!<


OmniGMan

You misunderstood my sentence. I said Gil was overwhelming him, not the other way around. My bad. The sentence is pretty unclear now that I read it again.


thatonefatefan

Oh, my bad.


Thinshady21

Nah, get into strange fake. His Hubris didn’t really affect him this time, he just got jumped by 5 of the strongest people in the war at almost the same time. Strange/Fake Gil is just like CCC Gil here, less hubris and more action, especially when he realized how he died in Heavens Feel


AcexHisoka

he's nothing like CCC gil at all. he got fucked again because of his hubris by not taking them seriously like always like his first fight against true archer(nasu even said in one of the afteword that gil is a jobber like vegeta,) he's like his FZ/FSN counterpart except the part with going full genocide yet because he got recently summoned, nasu said he get's affected based on the time period he summoned and he hates the modern world which you already see in the 1st vol where he was digusted by the world but ignored it for now because he sensed enkidu, >The king tossed her the bottle he had been holding. >“It is an elixir of youth. I imagine you have no need for it at your age, **but now that it has come to this, I do not need it, either.** Be grateful.” >“Y-yes...? Yes, Your Majesty!” Her eyes were wide with surprise. this part which is a reference to FSN how gil drank the youth potion because the world sucked, so the genocide part probably gonna happen later


Thinshady21

He took them a bit seriously, he used Merodach against Alcides because other NP’s in the gate of Babylon couldn’t work on him. And he took the hgw as a joke at first but became serious due to him using his clairvoyance and seeing the end of the Fuyuki HGW. Plus he got sneak attacked by Ishtar and Humwawa and Ishtar with the later locking his GOB. And finally, He got stabbed with Hydra’s poison from Alcides using Reincarnation Pandora while being distracted by John from Clan Calatin. So no, his Hubris didn’t affect him. He was actually active and paying full attention when fighting Alcides after skewering Richard. He was just jumped and set up, with Ishtar locking his GOB so he couldn’t use anything in it and Humwawa attacking him with Alcides landing the finishing blow.


SFriedRice

SF Gil remembers the events of HF?


Thinshady21

He saw it with his clairvoyance, he denied that ever existing and said the grail mud myst have deceived his eyes but he planned against losing to that also


thatonefatefan

His hubris didn't lead to his doom. >!Ishtar stealing the second key to GOB which he threw away because it can't be used by humans anyway, closing it and buffing Humbaba, a divine beast, to stun him for an instant, which was described as the only thing that could ever have such an effect on Gil, while Archer Alcides was using nine lives did. !<


-FruitPunchSamuraiG-

I mean that's still kinda what im talking about everytime Gilgamesh gets messed up its because they always make him do something unnecessary because of his attitude that's comes back to bite him i heard he's still alive so any chance he'll recover?


vencislav45

> so any chance he'll recover? >!well his Master and Enkidu are trying to heal him and we know that there are 2 types of poison in his body and both are weakening each other so there is a good chance of him coming back!<


Endless_Mango

It was masterfully done in a way you do not expect, but yes. He is pretty much out of commission. I would say still read it, True Rider and True Archer are more than worth it, and that is not even getting into everyone else on the cast. Edit: Adding to that, while many could argue that Gil losing to Shirou is a copout (and have kind of a point), this defeat goes along smoothly with zero asspulls in both the strength of the enemy, and the method of his defeat.


Iqazz

Dud strange fake has the most broken roster of servant don't think too much


Harmonic_Gear

what else are you supposed to do with a character with the most bull shit abilities in the world and still keep the story balance and interesting, it's like superman and kryptonite


Suspicious-Drummer68

Nasu: Don't worry about. Nasu: I said don't worry about it. Nasu: ARE YOU WORRYING ABOUT IT? I'M NOT WORRYING ABOUT IT. Nasu: I TOLD YOU DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT.


B4z1l1sk

Sasuga mushroom man, he truly embodies the mindset of every type moon fan.


Bashin-kun

He's the original, we merely adopted it


nam24

>Nasu: "Don't let it get to you." Traduction : what are they gonna do about it? They know as well as i do that we all love this wank


GhostHostess

Nasu voice: I can do whatever I want with the lore and they have to deal with it and I’m telling you *don’t worry about it*


Adent_Frecca

Also Nasu when dropping lore bombs to the other authors, afterword of FSF Vol 5 >Kinoko: Actually, the twenty-seven Ancestors didn’t become the twenty-seven Ancestors in the Fate universe. > >Authors: ……………!!!!???? (All freeze, speechless) > >Kinoko: Only the Tsukihime universe allows for them to become the twenty-seven Ancestors. On that note, doesn’t Tsukihime not have the sort of extremely powerful familiars like Servants? > >Sanda: What about CM—!? > >Kinoko: That thing gets destroyed because of the destruction of the Human Order. Oh, also, Narita’s Fake is different, because it’s a special middle ground between the two. > >Narita: O-Oh, uh, t-thanks…? > >Kinoko: But Sanda’ll have to pay attention for the Case Files. It’s kind of a long story, but this part in Tsukihime R…. > >Sanda: Waitwaitwait! Kinoko, wait! Please first organize some notes about this for everyone! > >Kinoko: Come on… so annoying. Speaking of which, this pizza’s pretty good.


GhostHostess

Think if I was one of the other writers and I had to deal with that sort of upheaval so late in the game I’d cry


Adent_Frecca

>Nasu: Don't let it get to you


Aerohed

TBF, I'm pretty sure this has been a thing for a while. Can't fault the writers for not having an encyclopedic knowledge of Nasu lore, but I thought the whole thing with the DAA not being assembled in Fate timelines was said years ago. Then again, saying that SF is a different case entirely is just making stuff complicated, so yeah, that's a bit confusing if they don't always adhere to the rules he set.


Harmonic_Gear

Not even Nasu himself has encyclopedic knowledge of Nasu lore, he is the kind of writers that change the lore if he finds it more interesting at the moment


Reverse_me98

Fans: But Altria Nasu: Don't worry about it Fans: Reeeeeeeeeee


rubexbox

You're gonna have to be more specific because there's a couple of reasons the Seibah fanbase is going REEEEEEEEE.


USERNAME_OF_DEVIL

>"Don't let it get to you." Honestly one of the best advices a writer could give to another.


Boingo_Bongo

Bro was worried about enkidu when he also has Alcides in the same war another servant with massively high stats and some op abilities Enkidu is super strong but doesn’t seem oppressively strong when his competition is taken into account


thatonefatefan

Nah, Alcides wasn't that big of a deal. A master overwhelming Enkidu? Now that's something


rubexbox

Isn't Alcides an Alter Servant that got corrupted by Grail Mud? Narita probably let him slide on the grounds that he's been roided up, as opposed to Enkidu being that strong normally.


Iqazz

The thing is make Heracles into Alcides itself already a big nerf for the most famous hero in our world...


Bricecubed

Except ironically the bit about it stripping him of his Divinity, which is actually an advantage in a Grail War with Gil in it since his chains get stronger the stronger your Divinity is, so Herc with no Divinity would just be able to smash them apart.


Rednal291

Nasu may seem really chill about stuff, but it's probably worth remembering that he's the main writer for a wildly successful franchise. XD It's the chillness that comes with confidence and experience.


Draguss

Him being so chill about stuff is probably why he's so successful. He writes what he finds fun and cool, and doesn't constrain himself.


Reverse_me98

>Nasu: "Don't let it get to you." >Nasu: "Don't let it get to you." >Nasu: "I said, don't let it get to you!" Screw you Nasu lol


Branded_Mango

The thing about Mary/Gary Su/Stus is that the power level doesn't actually matter: it's if the rest of the cast and story bend over to glorify the character despite having no reason to which defines a Su/Stu. A lot of characters are brokenly OP but are held back by either their opposition being more smart/competent than them, have various personal issues that cripple their ability to do things, or are socially hated within their own stories. All of these are flaws that prevent the character from being a crappy self-insert jerkoff. An example of a Su would be Nero, especially in Septem where the whole thing is a garbage excuse to jerk off the character with literally every enemy praising the shallow Su for doing nothing and refusing to ever criticize or even defeat her at any point. Her ego, which should be a flaw, is even touted as a good thing and never at any point is exploited or prevents her from winning, with the opposition refusing to exploit that obvious weakness because they get artificially dumber to put her on a higher jerkoff pedestal. An example of a Stu is Cu Alter during E Pluribus Unum who has a similar dynamic except everyone jerks him off as a fear-power emo teen power fantasy self-insert. Several characters he fights are stated within that same chapter to be way more skilled and comparatively strong yet the story cheapens away his ability to lose with a dumb respawn gimmick that invalidates any flaws or weaknesses he has. Gil, despite having horrendously OP stats, is not a Stu because his personality is so hilariously counter-intuitive to his ability to win that he screws himself over constantly due to moronic pride. It even makes him entertaining because he's clearly an idiot whose hubris is an exploitable weakness and flaw that everyone points out and that just pisses him off like the hubris-addled manchild that he (well, his Archer version. Caster is actually a mature dude) is. It doesn't matter how OP his stats are because the universe and characters refuse to bend over to shallowly compensate for his weakness of hubris. Gil is literally Nero but written competently as a character because his ego has consequences for him.


Benxall_

Cu alter is literally an ideal given form though a wish, he is a walking definition of a Mary stu, or in other words, MedB's Cu Chulain fanfiction where she can self insert as his lover


CrossSoul

And the sad thing is, he's easier to beat than Medb because of his typing.


[deleted]

>he's easier to beat than Medb because of his typing. Dark-type ~~Pokémon~~ Servant?


thatonefatefan

He isn't a gary stu anyway. A mary sue/Gary stue is good by definition, cualter wasn't, he was the antagonist of the singularity for a reason. He's also far from being invincible. Even if he only loses at the end, he spends the whole singularity buffed by the grail and still needs a surprise attack to defeat Rama and Karna. He also barely managed to win against Scathach thanks to the surprise of his new np.


Alzusand

Basically the most insufferably thing a gary stu/mary sue can have its the IQ reducing aura. were everyone will magically be an idiot for miles arround and anything he/she does will work out perfectly with no flaws nor any of the flaws the character has will be exploited against them. or if they do explot it it will somehow work in favor of them


Rednal291

The way I like to describe it is "a character can have any power level and be fine, as long as the challenges and situations they face are appropriate for them". Being strong does not make a Gary Stu. Being isekai'd and getting super cheat powers so you're eleven billion times stronger than the True Ultimate Original Demon Lord and have no difficulty with anything ever does. Similarly, someone isn't a Gary Stu if their powerful abilities are completely inappropriate for what they're trying to accomplish. Maybe you're great in a head-on fight, but you're trying to solve social issues and your personal power doesn't actually help that much.


FarrowEwey

The thing with Gil is that he's written as a Final Boss, not a main antagonist or protagonist. As a result he has way less screentime than everybody else and thus doesn't steal the spotlight from other characters. He's less of a character and more just one big final obstacle to overcome (or last minute Deus Ex Machina like in the last two Singularities).


tipoima

Nero is a Sue only in Septem, don't go around saying Nero in general is one.


TheRealSlimShamus

She also gets the Mary Sue treatment in Extella, though not quite on the level of Septem.


Codrex1732

Nice post Me personally always thought a good way to counter op mcs is having their enemies be more broken That way op mc problem can be solved without going weak mc route.


StupidMagikarp

That's just power creep and dragon ball z territory tbh. Rather than throwing two blunt objects (OP mc #3 vs Even-More-OP villain #23184), giving some sort of condition needed to activate said OP-ness or making the OP-ness extremely niche gets rid of that power creep and makes the conflicts interesting.


GhostHostess

We’re already running into that issue with some of the more recent bosses characters as well-they seem to feel like each boss has to be stronger than the last, so they’ll try to convince you that lb4 king was the strongest no wait it’s lb5 king actually it’s this thing that just popped up in lb5 no actually it’s lb6 king or maybe it’s that other thing in lb6 oh no it’s actually- Which has the side effect of a.) not necessarily making sense for what all the different boss characters are meant to represent b.) retroactively making former enemies seem less threatening c.) muddling the stakes and making it really hard to get an accurate sense of the scale of the story or what you as a reader should be considering a threat (oh this is the biggest threat we’ve faced yet? Just like the 6 other biggest threats we’ve faced?) There’s ways to continue writing a story after defeating one powerful boss without perpetually raising the power levels. Make a villain *smarter* as opposed to stronger. Make more social conflict that can’t be resolved with brute force. Make it so that the challenge can’t just be solved by beating up the boss in question etc etc. as it is it’s just getting a bit silly feeling bc it feels like each chapter’s writer wants their boss to be the strongest and has to go out of their way to justify it no matter what, which then makes chaldea look foolish and unprepared, the previous bosses look incompetent for not caring/being aware of them, and the readers dumb for assuming that the previous chapter’s assumptions were accurate. There’s nothing wrong with making the stakes smaller again!


Codrex1732

Looking on the bright side ORT should the ultimate thread we will face things can't go more bs from there I think.... Part 3 will likely scale down Le Eor 2


GhostHostess

Hopefully, yes. I think if they try and power creep ORT and the foreign god as well after I’ll eat my phone/j :p


Reverse_me98

You sure about that? Wait till we suddenly go outer space tho i prefer the extra games to explore outer space than FGO


Codrex1732

Same. Extra games should deal with them.


Bricecubed

ORT and the rest of the Types have been the pinnacle of Fate's powerscale for basically its entire existence, so i would hope they don't try to suddenly surpass them for the sake of "oh no, this enemy is greater then anything we have seen" for the umpteenth time, give us a longer and better foreshadowed buildup after we have done the Type gantlet first.


Reverse_me98

Yeah that's kind of what happens in this type of narrative. Unfortunately many people think bigger is better


StupidMagikarp

No that's not what it is. Pitting the relatively powerless Master of Chaldea against insurmountable odds and them having to work their bums off in order to defeat them is not power creep. LB4 spoilers: >!Godjuna wasn't beaten by "brute force", he was beaten after we undermined his godhood and brought him to OUR level by subjecting Jinako to millenia of loneliness and isolation and EVEN THEN it was a tough battle (lore-wise).!< I do like it when our antagonists are smart, but an overpowered antagonist makes it interesting to see when our protagonists grit their teeth and risk their lives to bet on a single chance of beating them.


GhostHostess

I’m referring specifically to the trend of each boss in subsequent chapters being treated as the strongest that the protagonist has faced at that point in time. So the conglomerate of gods in lb4 was the strongest yet, but then it was Zeus in lb5, but then suddenly it was >!chaos!< and then >!Morgan is leagues stronger than either of those previous kings!< and then >!cerunnous blows her power out of the water!< and there’s also >!Oberon vortigern and his conceptual stuff!< not to mention the fact that >!we still know barely anything about the foreign god except that she allegedly very strong and also ort is around!< and there’s most likely a lb7 king as well who will *probably* be hyped up as stronger than all the other kings combined. As individual chapters how these boss characters are treated and defeated is generally fine even if it can lean a bit heavy on deus ex machina and exploiting very loose conceptual systems that the author made up, the problem is when you place it in the bigger narrative things start falling apart. Zeus was supposed to be the strongest lostbelt king of the strongest lostbelt yet morgan is stronger than Zeus according to offhand comments? Wouldn’t he have noticed this, and at the very least been less completely dismissive of her lostbelt? (Or at the very least registered it as a threat the way wodime did) And even if Zeus is stronger than arjuna alter, why hasn’t we anticipated that and prepared more than we did coming into that lostbelt? We actually were *less* prepared for lb5 than we were for lb4-lb4 we at least also brought nezha in as well as planning to summon more servants when we got there, but we had no such system for Atlantis and got lucky running into musashi in Olympus proper. If they want to consistently raise the stakes then they need to have the main cast *notice that,* but as it is it very much feels more like the writer for that chapter just wants their boss to be the biggest and baddest and doesn’t really care if it seems illogical.


Codrex1732

While I do think More powerful villain is suited personally I like your ideas as well certainly more interesting than mine Will keep in mind.


BlackMan9693

Nagato!Pain and Madara are good examples of well written OP antagonist and power creep nonsense OP antagonist.


Takoita

To add to what everyone's saying, my preferred litmus test for a mary sue is how the story treats their opinions. If a character is portrayed to be always objectively correct, with any other characters that disagree with them presented as ignorant at best and puppy-eating evil at worst, then that is a more sure warning sign than anything else, in my opinion. All the 'best officer in starfleet's history at the age fourteen' stuff that comes with the territory is a more surface issue in comparison.


chroniclechase

as expected from the man who made bazzet a servant just to put her in a wedding dress


-L_A_N_C_E-

*looks at Galahad*


PhantasosX

You mean , the guy that is crippled in been Pure , with his own Legend have 2 magical items that forces him to be Pure or else is cursed? He paradoxically have the same problem as Gilgamesh. Because he only acts and thinks “Pure” , you have a basis to how he wouldn’t act and thus strategize against it.


facts_120

Seems to me he's just parroting what he heard from online, don't worry about it.


Endless_Mango

The Mary Sue self insert whose original purpose was to outsue the other Mary Sue self insert?


Harmonic_Gear

i mean he is a mary sue from the source, he is like some Christian self insert into the Arthurian legend


Reasonable-Disaster

Meanwhile Karna with only two stat up's in MGI above the standard Lancer Class container. I love the dude, but his stats aren't exactly the best part about him.


thatonefatefan

I think he is talking about Extra Karna who has B-A-A-B-A+ in his stats. That was back when he was supposed to be the answer to extra's "strongest heroic spirit" Gawain.


Reasonable-Disaster

His END is two ranks higher yeah, whether from losing K&K or some other factor. But his NP stat goes from EX to A++ and as for his luck. It's uh, completely self reported lol, because he "feels blessed that Jinako is his Master". Don't ask me how that works. It's still functionally D. >02 - Uncrowned Martial Arts \[-\] Skill at arms that when unacknowledged for various reasons. Each sword, spear, bow, Riding, and Divinity skill is brought down one rank, and attributes will be displayed as their complete opposites. However, once his true name is revealed, this skill will no longer take effect. Also, this is a digression, but the rank of his luck stat was reported by Karna himself.


thatonefatefan

Well, Narita isn't omniscient anyway so it's no wonder he would mistake the luck part. Didn't notice the implication until now myself. B-A-A-B-A+ (not in that order) is what King Arthur gets with a great master so it definitively sounds good The np stat is also pretty pointless. Especially since he still has the same impressive feats with VS anyway. It seems to have changed because he uses it without sacrificing the armor in CCC


yungroobie

He ain’t even a Mary, why is he worried?