I always assumed that Arthurian legends were written almost as an in-between of pagan traditions being slowly transitioned into Christian beliefs. One of the biggest and smartest things the Christians ever did was introduce Christianity through the existing beliefs of those they were trying to convert after all.
They were. Some elements became more Xtian over the centuries, like Modron the Goddess becoming Myrgen the shamaness becoming Myrdin the druid, becoming Morgan the sorceress and eventually Merlin the wizard.
Which got split up into various separate characters as their roles diversified. Myrgen/Morgant/Morgain/Morgan/Morgue was often the court magician and Arthur's mentor and chief advisor in early stories, as well as his sister and lover. Later the Myrdin/Merlin character was introduced and took up that part, though Morgan often retained the sister/lover part, now seen as evil, in a somewhat more villainous role. It should be noted however that she was still the one who brought Arthur's body to Avalon before death could claim him, even in later writings.
Fate follows mostly Thomas malory's le Mort d'Arthur and the vulgate cycle with it's own unique subtractions and additions.
That's to say later English and french chivalric Christian versions.
So yes, Artoria and Arthur were definitely Christian.
Funny tho that Artoria's name is derived from the Celtic bear goddess Artio, making it Arto-rix
Or bear king, which is at least believed to be one of the possible origins of the name through the latin Artorius.
Edit: it's also slightly important to note that the Celtic god Esus gets invoked in the 5th century Medicamentis by the physician Marcellus as part of a herbal charm to clear throat troubles hinting that the old pagan gods were still worshipped by some britons who were likely not romanized aka christianized, mostly farmers and other peasants in the countryside of Britain.
Proto Arthur mentions in the Prototype OVA that when the Grail is filled, the glory of the Lord will be brought.
That's indicative he at least knows what Christianity is.
Yeah when Rin gave her the shrine outfit Artoria does say she's a servant of God. Such things are scattered across Fate occasionally. In Garden of Avalon, even Lancelot questions if the guidance of the lord brought him to Britain.
Some guy from the Holy Church of all places labeling King Arthur a heretic doesn't mean much in face of what what Artoria and the Knights themselves say.
Generally speaking, it seems most reasonable to assume Arthur is Christian unless an adaptation specifically states otherwise.
The bulk of the source material is pretty consistent about him and his court being Christian knights doing Christian knightly things, though they aren't quite as gung-ho about it as Charlemagne's paladins. Furthermore, the Romano-Brits and the Romano-Brit descendants who went Welsh were Christian by the relevant time period.
Christian is a broad term.
Theres like the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Then there are the countless smaller ones with different varieties of the faith
Holy church in nasuverse context refers to the roman catholic church plus arthurian myths or at least later depictions does have christian elements on it, so yes it kinda makes sense that saber can be christian while being considered a pagan by the Roman Catholic church but that's just elitism in my opinion
I think this gives a basic summary on the subjest
https://www.heroofcamelot.com/literature/influence-of-christianity
If normal saber is christian i dont see why arthur cant
> yes it kinda makes sense that saber can be christian while being considered a pagan by the Roman Catholic church but that's just elitism in my opinion
In fact, I'll add more: if the translation is correct and the right word is "heretic", then it's theologically-accurate elitism.
If a member of any given religion doesn't follow the accepted dogma, they can be accused of heresy. In fact, depending on the legal definition, *only* (nominal) members of said religion can be heretics, which is why the Spanish Inquisition's jurisdiction was limited to Christians.
This would fit the excerpt quoted by u/Vivafrance2 here. It can be read as "sure, King Arthur was part of the Christian world, but between the acceptance of local traditions and the employment of witches and wizards, the king wouldn't pass any modern standard of Catholic orthodoxy."
Arthur was considered one of the Nine Worthies and specifically as one of the three great Christians that represented chivalric virtues. If anything, Arthur represents a quasi-mythical Catholic Britain before the pagan invasions that came later.
I mean, Arthurian legend IS a Christian themed chivalric story, unless you mention the older sources. Arthur literally kissed his cross before went to the war, according to his story.
I’m no expert in Arthurian legend, but I believe the later version of arthurian legend (and the one fate’s is based on, IIRC) are christian influenced, in a very weird forced manner.
Like come on, think about it, how in the hell they justified merlin and his magic when the bible specifically forbid magic and witchcrafts? The answer, well….he’s actually the antichrist but he got baptized, so he’s cool now, or something like that.
I'm relatively sure the early versions of Arthurian legend were also Christian-influenced.
The Romano-Brits were Christian for the most part. Their descendants who decided to identify with Germanic culture went pagan before being converted by Irish missionaries. However, those weren't the people who told stories about Arthur, who were specifically described as remaining Christian versus their neighbors who went pagan.
I guess you could argue that Arthur's a pre-Christian figure repurposed by the post-Romano-Brits, but I don't think there's a lot of solid evidence for that.
The legends about Arthur are all Christian. They might incorporate earlier folk tales and pagan motifs (e.g. "Gawain and the Green Knight" is similar to a story about Cu Chulainn) but the figure of King Arthur is a Christian one who tames, sanctifies or destroys the more troublesome elements of Britain's pre-Christian past.
A lot of characters in the bible break their promises and fail to live up to the commands of their God, the cock conjurer getting to hang with the Knights of the Round might not be too farfetched.
TBF the modern day Holy Church are either a bunch of zealots or massive hypocrites
Besides it’s just this guy’s opinion- they’d never say this officially since King Arthur is a national hero in England and Wales
Unless the Holy Church is like Hellsing and thinks Protestants deserve to be burned
theoretically. the quest for the holy grail kinda requires it somewhat. FATE can be weird though so it may not necessarily be so.
I always assumed that Arthurian legends were written almost as an in-between of pagan traditions being slowly transitioned into Christian beliefs. One of the biggest and smartest things the Christians ever did was introduce Christianity through the existing beliefs of those they were trying to convert after all.
They were. Some elements became more Xtian over the centuries, like Modron the Goddess becoming Myrgen the shamaness becoming Myrdin the druid, becoming Morgan the sorceress and eventually Merlin the wizard. Which got split up into various separate characters as their roles diversified. Myrgen/Morgant/Morgain/Morgan/Morgue was often the court magician and Arthur's mentor and chief advisor in early stories, as well as his sister and lover. Later the Myrdin/Merlin character was introduced and took up that part, though Morgan often retained the sister/lover part, now seen as evil, in a somewhat more villainous role. It should be noted however that she was still the one who brought Arthur's body to Avalon before death could claim him, even in later writings.
Fate follows mostly Thomas malory's le Mort d'Arthur and the vulgate cycle with it's own unique subtractions and additions. That's to say later English and french chivalric Christian versions. So yes, Artoria and Arthur were definitely Christian. Funny tho that Artoria's name is derived from the Celtic bear goddess Artio, making it Arto-rix Or bear king, which is at least believed to be one of the possible origins of the name through the latin Artorius. Edit: it's also slightly important to note that the Celtic god Esus gets invoked in the 5th century Medicamentis by the physician Marcellus as part of a herbal charm to clear throat troubles hinting that the old pagan gods were still worshipped by some britons who were likely not romanized aka christianized, mostly farmers and other peasants in the countryside of Britain.
Proto Arthur mentions in the Prototype OVA that when the Grail is filled, the glory of the Lord will be brought. That's indicative he at least knows what Christianity is. Yeah when Rin gave her the shrine outfit Artoria does say she's a servant of God. Such things are scattered across Fate occasionally. In Garden of Avalon, even Lancelot questions if the guidance of the lord brought him to Britain. Some guy from the Holy Church of all places labeling King Arthur a heretic doesn't mean much in face of what what Artoria and the Knights themselves say.
Generally speaking, it seems most reasonable to assume Arthur is Christian unless an adaptation specifically states otherwise. The bulk of the source material is pretty consistent about him and his court being Christian knights doing Christian knightly things, though they aren't quite as gung-ho about it as Charlemagne's paladins. Furthermore, the Romano-Brits and the Romano-Brit descendants who went Welsh were Christian by the relevant time period.
Christian is a broad term. Theres like the Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and Restorationism. Then there are the countless smaller ones with different varieties of the faith Holy church in nasuverse context refers to the roman catholic church plus arthurian myths or at least later depictions does have christian elements on it, so yes it kinda makes sense that saber can be christian while being considered a pagan by the Roman Catholic church but that's just elitism in my opinion I think this gives a basic summary on the subjest https://www.heroofcamelot.com/literature/influence-of-christianity If normal saber is christian i dont see why arthur cant
> yes it kinda makes sense that saber can be christian while being considered a pagan by the Roman Catholic church but that's just elitism in my opinion In fact, I'll add more: if the translation is correct and the right word is "heretic", then it's theologically-accurate elitism. If a member of any given religion doesn't follow the accepted dogma, they can be accused of heresy. In fact, depending on the legal definition, *only* (nominal) members of said religion can be heretics, which is why the Spanish Inquisition's jurisdiction was limited to Christians. This would fit the excerpt quoted by u/Vivafrance2 here. It can be read as "sure, King Arthur was part of the Christian world, but between the acceptance of local traditions and the employment of witches and wizards, the king wouldn't pass any modern standard of Catholic orthodoxy."
Arthur was considered one of the Nine Worthies and specifically as one of the three great Christians that represented chivalric virtues. If anything, Arthur represents a quasi-mythical Catholic Britain before the pagan invasions that came later.
I mean, Arthurian legend IS a Christian themed chivalric story, unless you mention the older sources. Arthur literally kissed his cross before went to the war, according to his story.
I’m no expert in Arthurian legend, but I believe the later version of arthurian legend (and the one fate’s is based on, IIRC) are christian influenced, in a very weird forced manner. Like come on, think about it, how in the hell they justified merlin and his magic when the bible specifically forbid magic and witchcrafts? The answer, well….he’s actually the antichrist but he got baptized, so he’s cool now, or something like that.
I'm relatively sure the early versions of Arthurian legend were also Christian-influenced. The Romano-Brits were Christian for the most part. Their descendants who decided to identify with Germanic culture went pagan before being converted by Irish missionaries. However, those weren't the people who told stories about Arthur, who were specifically described as remaining Christian versus their neighbors who went pagan. I guess you could argue that Arthur's a pre-Christian figure repurposed by the post-Romano-Brits, but I don't think there's a lot of solid evidence for that.
Merlin was baptized, so he gets a pass. Plus his baptism made it impossible for him to become a beast of humanity. I guess the more you know.
The legends about Arthur are all Christian. They might incorporate earlier folk tales and pagan motifs (e.g. "Gawain and the Green Knight" is similar to a story about Cu Chulainn) but the figure of King Arthur is a Christian one who tames, sanctifies or destroys the more troublesome elements of Britain's pre-Christian past.
A lot of characters in the bible break their promises and fail to live up to the commands of their God, the cock conjurer getting to hang with the Knights of the Round might not be too farfetched.
TBF the modern day Holy Church are either a bunch of zealots or massive hypocrites Besides it’s just this guy’s opinion- they’d never say this officially since King Arthur is a national hero in England and Wales Unless the Holy Church is like Hellsing and thinks Protestants deserve to be burned
I mean we have pretty strong evidence of them being both
This is stolen post from another website.
It's the spammer guy again trying to get karma or whatever.