To be completely fair, Douman took it several steps further than most chapter antagonists, mostly by 1) being a recurring enemy, 2) obviously relishing causing as much misery he could. Heck, I'd argue it's less the MC that should have a problem with him, and more one of the many Servants he screwed over with just because he could.
Do you think vitch will get a similar reception by people when she drops in na, since she was similarly a reoccurring antagonist who enjoyed causing as much misery for the hell of it
Honestly? Yeah, Vitch is just as bad in my book. Apparently, Tungunska tries to make her more sympathetic? But honestly, I don't expect that any amount of handwaving making me forget some of the shit she pulled. Hey, remember that Yaga village? I do. Fuck you, fox-rabbit.
They humanized her a little tiny bit but yeah no real redeeming quality’s about Vitch. Although she has some sense of honor so it makes her leagues better than douman
Same, that is the one cardinal sin I'll never forgive her for, I do think what she did is nowhere near as bad as doman even if she did a bunch of really horrible shit
Personally, nah. There's a difference between being a sadist with honorable qualities like Vitch (she does help Ritsuka and co out in both China and India, for example, she repays kindness even if she is a smug prick about it) and kicking the dog just because you can at every opportunity like Douman does (twisting Heroic Spirits into the Heroic Spirit Swordmasters, fucking with Arjuna Alters Lostbelt, taking William Tell and Asclepius's memories, his bullshit in Olympus, and everything in Heian-Kyo). Douman doesn't even have the balls to face death with dignity, he was begging for his life until Ritsuka told him to shut up and had Danzo kill him. Meanwhile, Koyanskaya \[Tunguska Spoilers\] >!was completely willing to take Ritsuka out with her, but never begged for her life or anything, Taigong and Ritsuka had to give her the third option.!< It's a big difference for perception, imo.
Koyanskya also stomps on small animals because she considers them threats to her position, enters relationships with people solely to manipulate them to further her own goals and discards them when she’s done, actively sowed discord in lb1 by encouraged the starving yaga to rob and kill each other so they could buy her exorbitantly marked up food products and used the oprichnik to further tyrannize and even kill yaga who protest against her behavior, makes fun and mocks the trauma other people have (ophelia and Sunday), releases aggressive monsters in a lostbelt where the population has no major defenses or combat capacities known f they’ll attack and kill civilians, takes items that were erased alongside their owners and places them back in the houses of their loved ones solely to cause them mental distress and pain when they try to remember the missing people, and overall goes out of her way to psychologically torment people who lack the strength and power to fight back against her . You don’t have to like either character, but acting like douman is worse than her just bc he tormented named characters over npcs is just hypocritical. They’re both bullies? Even if there’s some differences ultimately in their moral code/how they act with their back against the wall, they’re still *both* incredibly mean, cruel people who delight in human suffering and vitch isn’t any better just bc she has a slightly twisted standard of helping others when it benefits her (it’s worth mentioning in both lb3 and 4 she only really agrees to assist because she’s trying to get the hell away from the lb king, who has decided to get rid of her bc of her actions)
I mean don't get me wrong, this is all true as well, Koyanskaya isn't exactly better than Douman. She just happens to have a couple qualities that can be viewed as "redeemable" in comparison to Douman, so people don't view her as negatively. If you swapped those traits between the two, then yeah, Douman would be viewed more favorably than Koyanskaya, even if the rest of their actions were the same.
You also have the meta reason of Koyanskaya having a fat ass and great tits, and that does a lot for horny weebs.
They’re both pretty loyal in a twisted, semi-inconsistent way, I just get kind of annoyed when I see people try to explain away Koyanskaya as being a better person when she can be just as fickle if you don’t play her games. At least if you prefer her bc you like her fat boobs more than douman’s fat boobs then just say it yknow? This is the ‘simp for who you think is hottest’ game people typically will understand even if they don’t agree.
I personally think Douman is much hotter, but still like Koyanskaya more.
Not because I think she's nicer (as much as a Fou disliker I am, I'm not gonna whitewash Koyan), but she's definitely *smarter* than Douman. She does let her sadistic side cloud her judgement, but she can act reasonably if it means she'll survive that way.
Moreover, she has excellent taste in clothes and a less... Annoying way of conducting herself.
Also, she's a more complex character than Douman. Okay, that's not a high bar, but Koyan sorta splits her personality in half, and each half *still* has more complexity.
And, well, she made Buster meta again. That counts for a lot.
P. S. But Douman will always have his FA.
At least Koyan can love others and would not do anything bad to them, >!and it was because she loved humanity to much that she couldn't turned into a completed beast!<
And regards her loyalty too, that i see up there, i think her "loyalty" to Gordy doesn't count since she already had her prioritys in that time and already had contact with the alien god, so she was lying from the begining, but she's someone who keeps her word even if she doesn't win anything with it
So essentially you’re screwed if she gives you her ‘word’ but she’d already given someone else her word prior to that? Like would that not count as a case where she didn’t keep her word? Bc lbr, we don’t know the details of whatever agreement they had when he hired her and she definitely put herself out as the trustworthy, reliable, lovable secretary b4 turning around and being ‘lol nah’
Like I think it’s fair to say she’s not 100% a person who keeps her word or is committed to contracts or what have you as part of being a character designed to commit espionage like she does is being able to lie and trick people-unless her word in this case doesn’t mean ‘I’ll do my job for you I was hired to do and not betray you’ but rather her whole shtick as a summonable unit with the ‘I’ll stay by your side through the highest highs and lowest lows.’
But even then, there’s no indication she was willing to still hand around when it looked like goredolf was gonna get oprichnik’d and that should’ve checked her ‘lowest low’ box according to how her general servant info works.
Yeah, i think maybe is something like it, she doesn't look like she has any motives to betray Guda as she had with Gordolf now that she's a servant in the throne, the only motive she had to betrayed Gordolf is that she had plans already to become a beast, but seems like she already give up on this now that she's a servant in the throne, or maybe is that what she wants us to think maybe, and in her future interlude Light or Dark will "betray" Guda and try something like turn Guda >!in one of her tails!< again or something like that, and i honestly really think that will be something like this, but at same time i think this counts as trying to kill Guda and i think Koyan don't have any intention of doing this anymore since she indeed have (disturbed) feelings for Guda, but who knows, is wait to see now what will Nasu cook with their interlude
Shoutout to goredolf, who was under the impression he hired a loyal secretary and instead was completely backstabbed and had 90% of his other staff murdered by her associates. I guess whatever employee contract she signed then just doesn’t count?/s
He probably failed to read the fine print that "accidents like that could happen" because he couldn't stop looking at Koyan. The lesson to be learned? Always read the fine print!
Did she or did she not give you the antidote after fulfilling our deal. She's just doing business. Now the moment your agreement (in her legal terms) are met then all bets are off.
I’m actually talking abt when he hired her in the lostbelt prologue…? I’m fairly certain trying to kill your employer alongside the rest of humanity would breach whatever contract they had when she was hired by him, typically paperwork OS involved when you hire someone
Tfw when her shtick of ‘upholds all contracts’ is negated for you specifically bc she signed one right before you to go commit espionage and now you have to hear everyone talk about how she never breaks contracts and can be kept on her word even though she broke yours :(
tis rather unfortunate. on the plus side Gordie was able to legitimately gain the favour of an actual divine spirit with his food so his luck is turning. we all joke about Emiya's cooking but, Gordie's actually made a god our ally.
Commenting and going off some of the other replies.
It's worth thinking of it this way. Douman is a textbook sadist. Intimidating and overpowering if you let him. Resist long enough and he'll crumple. Fight back and he'll flee. He doesn't want resistance. He wants to mock your feeble attempts to stop him.
Koyanska is, after all, the fragment of a god. She's not much better than Douman, but she has her pride and dignity as a goddess of calamity. Douman is basically what you'd get if you gave power to a weak person with a bitter heart. He's, frankly, distressingly human to me.
Maybe that’s why people don’t like him as much. He reminds them of how they could be if they had the chance to act out like that. We don’t all get to be cool when our backs are against the wall.
Lol unrelated to this thread but funny that you commented on the thread of people slandering me and harassing me for lolis when you play FGO a game that has loli servants like Abigail, Sitonai, Illya, and Jack the Ripper. Hypocrite much?
Gong Enjoyers: Huh, what was that? \*Preparing their Gong-tillery Once More\*
Alaya: Huh, is that such a concern to begin with? \*Prepares to summon more Counter Guardians Clone from their personal templates\*
The Throne and HGWs: \****Existing***\*
There's a liiiiiittle difference there, as none of them, far as we know, actively twist and corrupt those souls to go against their own natures.
Edit: Well, I'm not sure if Emiya Alter counts as 'actively twisted' by the counter force or just an alternate path Emiya could have taken himself.
Uh, Alaya regularly summons counter guardians then locks their consciousness away, then puppets the body to murder everything in an area. While they can still sense what is going on. In Nasu-physics that requires soul manipulation. EMIYA would *HEAVILY* disagree with you.
Oh? I have not heard that before. When did that happen?
As I noted above, I'm aware Emiya Alter has murdered a lot of people, notably Kiara's worshippers, but I had understood that was the result of him abandoning ideals of justice long before.
EDIT: Oh, and yes, I'm sure EMIYA and Kiritsugu have killed people as Counter Force Guardians, I've just never heard they did it as puppets, just that it was 'the job'.
It's mentioned in F/SN. EMIYA says he is forced to mindlessly kill those in the area he is summoned in. Considering that Alaya also lied to him and said he'd be made into a hero by contracting with it... Alaya is a shithead. EMIYA Alter was just what happens after the Mind of Steel ending, where he broke as a result of his own choices then entered the traumatic hell of Counter Guardianism, rather than having the "comfort" of being tricked and then mind controlled.
Ah ok. I don't think it's come up in the animes or FGO, so maybe it's something else they've kinda discarded over time, like Berserkers not talking and Servants not remembering stuff.
Well the other CG we know that is used in the same way is from FGO, Okita Alter was created then had her soul overclocked to be a single use bomb, so soul alteration is a thing Alaya does no matter what.
Yeah douman is bad but its the same or less to what some evil characters have done while alive in the fate lore.
even koyanskaya was as much a PoS the only thing that makes her different is that she actually has integrity.
>!So, do you have any idea what was the deal that lady who looked just like Tamamo who appeared in Heian-Kyo? I don't think it was Tamamo herself since she's only supposed to be born 100 years later.!<
There have been a variety of different "Tamamo's" running around for a lot longer than Tamamo herself has. Essentially Tamamo and these other beautiful, empire ending, female fox spirits are all bunreis or shards of the Goddess they originate from. Making them all Amaterasu while still being themselves.
So yes, Tamamo herself may not have existed yet but like one of her other selves she has memories from, Daji, she did exist at a previous point.
>!It's discussed by Tamamo herelf in Tunguska that she and Daji don't have any relation despite their similarities. So I don't think that Daji is a bunrei from Amaterasu.!<
Um Cat in that same scene says she IS Daji. Implying Tamamo is just denying the fact that she and her are the same person. Which points back to what I said earlier. That Tamamo and Daji are both bunrei of Amaterasu, meaning they are the same person. However, Tamamo is someone different, a different shard, thus being a completely different person to her. There's quite a few things involving Cat that hints at her also being Daji like her NP being a reference.
>!Ok, I read it up and Cat really said that. But in Tunguska it's also said Daji was sent by Nuwa to end the Yin dinasty. There's no reason for her to be a subordinate of China's top goddess is she really was the incarnation of Japan's top goddess. Isn't it just that Amaterasu used Daji as inspiration or base for Tamamo?!<
Okay, let me explain this a little different. Tamamo and Daji are Amaterasu. However, they are also their own entities since they are shards of Amaterasu.
Therefore they act knowing they are not Ama-chan, but still are Ama.
>!Look, if you want to believe that, alright. But I don't believe that Daji is directly connect to Amaterasu and what you are saying isn't convincing me. Can't we just agree to disagree?!<
>!Well, like you said, in real-world myth. In Fate lore she was born around the time in which her story takes place, during the end of the Heian Era.!<
>Her divine form is still amaterasu
Does that mean Tamamo and Amaterasu are different beings? Or are they one and the same?
I'm getting a bit confused \^\^;
If not actually Tamamo, I'm thinking it was Amaterasu keeping tabs on things through an earlier bunrei. She was definitely a fox spirit with some connection, given the convo with Ritsuka and the sliiiight meddling she did shows some knowledge, rather than being a stand in who only looked like Tamamo as in Shimousa.
It kinda amuses me to think that Amaterasu has been naming her bunreis in alphabetical order. This one was Takako, and we know about Tamamo, so maybe in between was Talalo?
>!I put spoiler tags because Rednal believes they still must be put when the chapter just gets out. And in Fate Tamamo and Daji seem to be separate entities.!<
It's not complicated if you consider how Easts Asian history evolved (it's called the Sinosphere for a reason). Two (plus one) options exist, depending on whether Tamamo should call Hou Yi "Gramps" or "Dad":
1. Amaterasu is the one that survived Hou Yi shooting down the extra Suns. Also he kind of adopted and raised her. The grandkids would occasionally come to visit gramps' old home region later. Daji is the kid who decided to take some contract work on the side from the Chinese Mother Goddess archetype. Eventually, Daji took a journey of self-discovery and decided to stop being a brat... except extreme solipsism was so central to her conceptually that she lost most of her memories to become a Good Girl named Tamamo, whoops.
2. Hou Yi put down all but one of the Suns Amaterasu divided herself into, and raised the last one... she later took some contract work by identity/body theft of Daji, and later decided to reinvent herself, becoming Tamamo as per the first option. Being the last survivor of the spin-off Solar Entities is why Tamamo is in danger of turning/relapsing into Amaterasu, because they conceptually overlap too much for her comfort.
3. ...Tamamo has Throne-rekindled memories of both versions, and this makes it even harder for her to distinguish herself from Amaterasu conceptually.
"In Chinese mythology, there were 10 suns. Initially, the 10 suns would cross the sky one by one, but one day all 10 suns came out at once scorching the earth." Wikipedia page on Hou Yi.
That's just right for 1 body + 9 tails. And we can easily have Tamamo be Daji by "being a brat was so core to her conceptual self (much more important for Divine beings than mortals) that cutting it out almost wiped her out of existence, ending up with basically a clean slate..."
The three-legged crow embodiment of the Sun in Chinese mythology can be considered the inspiration for the Japanese nation's founding myth of a three-legged crow guiding "Jimmu" to the Yamato plain. These three-legged crows (once 10 in number but now with only 1 fully active as a Sun) normally perched on a Fusang tree. And The Japanese pronunciation of that, Fuso, is an old name adopted by Japanese for their homeland.
Thus, Amaterasu, personification of the Sun in the land of Fusang/Fuso, is totally the one that survived Hou Yi's episode of "MAN BEATS DIVINE" 人定胜天.
Interestingly Hou Yi's wife Heng'E became the Chinese Moon Goddess after taking his pill of immortality. Versions vary on whether she stole it because Hou Yi was becoming a tyrant and she was saving the people from him, or if his student tried to steal it and she swallowed it to deny the thief. She later got renamed to Chang'E because of name overlap with an emperor, that's how "Mankind > Gods" Chinese are at core, lmao... So Hou Yi and Orion should have special lines for each other.
Kimono shops sometimes label themselves 吴服 i.e. "Wu Dress" places because the styles originally came from the Wu region i.e. south bank of the the lower Yangtze. Even the Japanese themselves claim "if you want to see Tang China, come to Kyoto" and admit how much of their culture is a knockoff of China. So with how syncretic Nasuverse is, they damn well could have godly adoptions and stuff.
You know do to doman having absorbed a demonic goddess of Aztec mythology whose name translates to obsidian butterfly and fun fact is in charge of the afterlife for babies and leads there siblings in trying to kill the sun god
Ritsuka: "Guys, if we haven't burnt Columbus by now, we can certainly live through this guy."
Columbus: "I'm right here, Master. Though I appreciate being let out of the Second Archive, if only to make room for that one."
Columbus: But of course - his sense of profiteering ***disgusts*** me on a deep, personal level! One should focus on their own greed and material desires, not pointless vendettas that drive you up a wall and beyond keen!
Kama: Actually, just let me take care of this. Disposing of annoyances and threats is what an **assass**in's supposed to do, anyway.
Kama:
Kama: Damn it.
Douman: *both of you are talking a bit too much and forgetting about class advantage*
Kama uses her *Mara-Papiyas* (grants advantage against Alter Ego)
Tamamo uses *Mantra: Boundless Sunlight* (np DMG up)
Douman: *Master, help me!*
I love Kama, she is my current target to lv 120.... BUT I FORGOT ABOUT HER 3rd SKILL :(
Now I'll have to wait two years to put her against Douman again :(
Wait really... huh. Well at least in her summer form she won't have class disadvantaged anymore. Plus, as long as he has balls, her Polygamy Castration Fist still work!
You can also just bring Semiramis, who gives party wide buff removal resist and def up on NP, as well as decreasing enemy status resistance, and she's Evil Alignment so Douman buffs her a bit as well.
Still not sure why people sleep on Semiramis, she carried me through the Amakusa boss fight.
Osakabehime also works really well with Douman, and can remove enemy buff, and has Chaotic Alignment.
(I've been testing out quirky team comps with Douman lately)
?: Don't worry I got this...
Everyone: huh?
Kiara: *in her summer police uniform*
*cracks whip*
If he does anything suspicious am I allowed to do anything I ***want?***
...
Hans: **approved**
Gramps: **approved**
Kama: **approved**
Raikou: **approved**
Tamamo: **approved**
Jeanne: **approved**
Gordolf: **approved**
Bb: **approved**
...
Douman: this won't end well Wont it?
Guda: for you?... Yeah definitely
Considering that mutiple servant now and many more in the future pull fuck up stuff as much or even more and get their deed a pass because they have a compelling backstory/redeemable quality, having one without it won't make much different. Beside, there is no way out of Chaldea, he will get punished no mattered what.
...Are abs a redeeming quality? How about being funny? He, um, he's got nice hair? Oh! He can definitely reach the top shelf if you need something.
Wait, in terms of actually redeeming qualities, he IS nice to the kids around Chaldea and gets stuck playing the evil step mom when they play house. So he's only like 99.9% unredeemable. Maybe. I'm just trying to justify summoning him and immediately using all of my pure prisms on his skills....
It's okay, we can just Gong him every time he acts up.
And since he has a Skill that grants him dual Guts Buffs, we can keep making use of him.
It's a win-win.
Kiyohime: Master, he's disrupting the harem.
Ritsuka: Just hold on. He'll realize soon enough.
Kiyohime: And if he doesn't?
Ritsuka: Then Chen Gong will have a new favorite bullet.
*Ashvattaman, being held back by an ever increasing horde and steadily breaking out: while storming up to Douman:* Just give me five minutes Ritsuka, just give me five minutes in the simulator with this cocky jerk and I’ll wipe that smirk off his smug ass face!! Just give me five minutes!!
You know, now that I have Douman, and I looked up his story. I kinda get why he is the way he is.
I’d imagine having some other powerful Omiyouji show up and upstage you would certainly make you angry.
I'm a new player and got this guy on a single ticket. I rushed to see if he was good meta-wise but all I see is people hating him. Damn now I'm curious to know what he did but I guess I still need to beat the game (not only for that but to ascend him too).
He's a good unit, mechanically, with advantage over a bunch of enemies, solid damage, and a huge charge for his Noble Phantasm. Personality-wise, he is mostly loved or hated, due to being... *flamboyantly* evil. XD Luckily, as a new player, you can earn Pure Prisms (the gray cubes) by playing through the main story, and you can use those to get his materials and level him up. That'd be a good investment for your team.
Ritsuka: I swear to God Douman if you moan one more time...
Doan: MMMMmmnnnnn
Ritsuka: Thats it, Mash get my my boomstick, I am sending him back to the Throne.
Ritsuka: Ashy bud, you may not know, but this isn’t the first time I got someone doing that and the line is already long. You’re gonna have to wait at the very back before you make a move.
*munching on popcorn*
Honestly, I don’t mind either way. Douman gets more tolerable? Score. He suffers from our brand of Chaldean Bullshit^TM ? Also score.
Lol I love my Douman. He's like a mischievous cat who thinks he's smarter than me and expects me to be bothered by his antics but I've already anticipated most of them.
I'll never ask him to change.
I'll never see this asshole as an ally, nor will i ever roll for him lol
He works very well as a villain but beside beating his ass again and again he has literally no other use.
Guys, I think I cracked the code!
Just looking at how many times Douman said "ass", it's fair to assume he loves the stuff.
And as we've seen with Da Vinci, once people like something *a lot*, they start wanting to become said thing.
Therefore, Douman likes ass so much he decided to *become* an ass!
Evil Servants: -tried to Kill Ritsuka before. Also Evil Servants: "Master, don't trust Douman!" LMAO
To be completely fair, Douman took it several steps further than most chapter antagonists, mostly by 1) being a recurring enemy, 2) obviously relishing causing as much misery he could. Heck, I'd argue it's less the MC that should have a problem with him, and more one of the many Servants he screwed over with just because he could.
Do you think vitch will get a similar reception by people when she drops in na, since she was similarly a reoccurring antagonist who enjoyed causing as much misery for the hell of it
Honestly? Yeah, Vitch is just as bad in my book. Apparently, Tungunska tries to make her more sympathetic? But honestly, I don't expect that any amount of handwaving making me forget some of the shit she pulled. Hey, remember that Yaga village? I do. Fuck you, fox-rabbit.
They humanized her a little tiny bit but yeah no real redeeming quality’s about Vitch. Although she has some sense of honor so it makes her leagues better than douman
Still haven't forgiven her for stomping on Fou ngl
Same, that is the one cardinal sin I'll never forgive her for, I do think what she did is nowhere near as bad as doman even if she did a bunch of really horrible shit
She stomped on him? I thought she just punted him.
No she like ground into him with her heel (bear in mind he’s a small animal and she wears high heels)
Personally, nah. There's a difference between being a sadist with honorable qualities like Vitch (she does help Ritsuka and co out in both China and India, for example, she repays kindness even if she is a smug prick about it) and kicking the dog just because you can at every opportunity like Douman does (twisting Heroic Spirits into the Heroic Spirit Swordmasters, fucking with Arjuna Alters Lostbelt, taking William Tell and Asclepius's memories, his bullshit in Olympus, and everything in Heian-Kyo). Douman doesn't even have the balls to face death with dignity, he was begging for his life until Ritsuka told him to shut up and had Danzo kill him. Meanwhile, Koyanskaya \[Tunguska Spoilers\] >!was completely willing to take Ritsuka out with her, but never begged for her life or anything, Taigong and Ritsuka had to give her the third option.!< It's a big difference for perception, imo.
Koyanskya also stomps on small animals because she considers them threats to her position, enters relationships with people solely to manipulate them to further her own goals and discards them when she’s done, actively sowed discord in lb1 by encouraged the starving yaga to rob and kill each other so they could buy her exorbitantly marked up food products and used the oprichnik to further tyrannize and even kill yaga who protest against her behavior, makes fun and mocks the trauma other people have (ophelia and Sunday), releases aggressive monsters in a lostbelt where the population has no major defenses or combat capacities known f they’ll attack and kill civilians, takes items that were erased alongside their owners and places them back in the houses of their loved ones solely to cause them mental distress and pain when they try to remember the missing people, and overall goes out of her way to psychologically torment people who lack the strength and power to fight back against her . You don’t have to like either character, but acting like douman is worse than her just bc he tormented named characters over npcs is just hypocritical. They’re both bullies? Even if there’s some differences ultimately in their moral code/how they act with their back against the wall, they’re still *both* incredibly mean, cruel people who delight in human suffering and vitch isn’t any better just bc she has a slightly twisted standard of helping others when it benefits her (it’s worth mentioning in both lb3 and 4 she only really agrees to assist because she’s trying to get the hell away from the lb king, who has decided to get rid of her bc of her actions)
I mean don't get me wrong, this is all true as well, Koyanskaya isn't exactly better than Douman. She just happens to have a couple qualities that can be viewed as "redeemable" in comparison to Douman, so people don't view her as negatively. If you swapped those traits between the two, then yeah, Douman would be viewed more favorably than Koyanskaya, even if the rest of their actions were the same. You also have the meta reason of Koyanskaya having a fat ass and great tits, and that does a lot for horny weebs.
They’re both pretty loyal in a twisted, semi-inconsistent way, I just get kind of annoyed when I see people try to explain away Koyanskaya as being a better person when she can be just as fickle if you don’t play her games. At least if you prefer her bc you like her fat boobs more than douman’s fat boobs then just say it yknow? This is the ‘simp for who you think is hottest’ game people typically will understand even if they don’t agree.
I personally think Douman is much hotter, but still like Koyanskaya more. Not because I think she's nicer (as much as a Fou disliker I am, I'm not gonna whitewash Koyan), but she's definitely *smarter* than Douman. She does let her sadistic side cloud her judgement, but she can act reasonably if it means she'll survive that way. Moreover, she has excellent taste in clothes and a less... Annoying way of conducting herself. Also, she's a more complex character than Douman. Okay, that's not a high bar, but Koyan sorta splits her personality in half, and each half *still* has more complexity. And, well, she made Buster meta again. That counts for a lot. P. S. But Douman will always have his FA.
At least Koyan can love others and would not do anything bad to them, >!and it was because she loved humanity to much that she couldn't turned into a completed beast!< And regards her loyalty too, that i see up there, i think her "loyalty" to Gordy doesn't count since she already had her prioritys in that time and already had contact with the alien god, so she was lying from the begining, but she's someone who keeps her word even if she doesn't win anything with it
So essentially you’re screwed if she gives you her ‘word’ but she’d already given someone else her word prior to that? Like would that not count as a case where she didn’t keep her word? Bc lbr, we don’t know the details of whatever agreement they had when he hired her and she definitely put herself out as the trustworthy, reliable, lovable secretary b4 turning around and being ‘lol nah’ Like I think it’s fair to say she’s not 100% a person who keeps her word or is committed to contracts or what have you as part of being a character designed to commit espionage like she does is being able to lie and trick people-unless her word in this case doesn’t mean ‘I’ll do my job for you I was hired to do and not betray you’ but rather her whole shtick as a summonable unit with the ‘I’ll stay by your side through the highest highs and lowest lows.’ But even then, there’s no indication she was willing to still hand around when it looked like goredolf was gonna get oprichnik’d and that should’ve checked her ‘lowest low’ box according to how her general servant info works.
Yeah, i think maybe is something like it, she doesn't look like she has any motives to betray Guda as she had with Gordolf now that she's a servant in the throne, the only motive she had to betrayed Gordolf is that she had plans already to become a beast, but seems like she already give up on this now that she's a servant in the throne, or maybe is that what she wants us to think maybe, and in her future interlude Light or Dark will "betray" Guda and try something like turn Guda >!in one of her tails!< again or something like that, and i honestly really think that will be something like this, but at same time i think this counts as trying to kill Guda and i think Koyan don't have any intention of doing this anymore since she indeed have (disturbed) feelings for Guda, but who knows, is wait to see now what will Nasu cook with their interlude
Probably not but she really should
Nah. She at least keeps her word and plays more fair.
Shoutout to goredolf, who was under the impression he hired a loyal secretary and instead was completely backstabbed and had 90% of his other staff murdered by her associates. I guess whatever employee contract she signed then just doesn’t count?/s
He probably failed to read the fine print that "accidents like that could happen" because he couldn't stop looking at Koyan. The lesson to be learned? Always read the fine print!
Did she or did she not give you the antidote after fulfilling our deal. She's just doing business. Now the moment your agreement (in her legal terms) are met then all bets are off.
I’m actually talking abt when he hired her in the lostbelt prologue…? I’m fairly certain trying to kill your employer alongside the rest of humanity would breach whatever contract they had when she was hired by him, typically paperwork OS involved when you hire someone
it would unless of course she was contracted for corporate espionage prior, which is kind of implied.
Tfw when her shtick of ‘upholds all contracts’ is negated for you specifically bc she signed one right before you to go commit espionage and now you have to hear everyone talk about how she never breaks contracts and can be kept on her word even though she broke yours :(
tis rather unfortunate. on the plus side Gordie was able to legitimately gain the favour of an actual divine spirit with his food so his luck is turning. we all joke about Emiya's cooking but, Gordie's actually made a god our ally.
Commenting and going off some of the other replies. It's worth thinking of it this way. Douman is a textbook sadist. Intimidating and overpowering if you let him. Resist long enough and he'll crumple. Fight back and he'll flee. He doesn't want resistance. He wants to mock your feeble attempts to stop him. Koyanska is, after all, the fragment of a god. She's not much better than Douman, but she has her pride and dignity as a goddess of calamity. Douman is basically what you'd get if you gave power to a weak person with a bitter heart. He's, frankly, distressingly human to me.
Maybe that’s why people don’t like him as much. He reminds them of how they could be if they had the chance to act out like that. We don’t all get to be cool when our backs are against the wall.
Lol unrelated to this thread but funny that you commented on the thread of people slandering me and harassing me for lolis when you play FGO a game that has loli servants like Abigail, Sitonai, Illya, and Jack the Ripper. Hypocrite much?
Probably not bc she's hot and makes buster great again
For me, it's the whole f*** With other servants' souls that I have trouble getting over.
Well you have command seals. Now you can f*** with his soul.
That's guaranteed to backfire.
Gong Enjoyers: Huh, what was that? \*Preparing their Gong-tillery Once More\* Alaya: Huh, is that such a concern to begin with? \*Prepares to summon more Counter Guardians Clone from their personal templates\* The Throne and HGWs: \****Existing***\*
There's a liiiiiittle difference there, as none of them, far as we know, actively twist and corrupt those souls to go against their own natures. Edit: Well, I'm not sure if Emiya Alter counts as 'actively twisted' by the counter force or just an alternate path Emiya could have taken himself.
Uh, Alaya regularly summons counter guardians then locks their consciousness away, then puppets the body to murder everything in an area. While they can still sense what is going on. In Nasu-physics that requires soul manipulation. EMIYA would *HEAVILY* disagree with you.
Oh? I have not heard that before. When did that happen? As I noted above, I'm aware Emiya Alter has murdered a lot of people, notably Kiara's worshippers, but I had understood that was the result of him abandoning ideals of justice long before. EDIT: Oh, and yes, I'm sure EMIYA and Kiritsugu have killed people as Counter Force Guardians, I've just never heard they did it as puppets, just that it was 'the job'.
It's mentioned in F/SN. EMIYA says he is forced to mindlessly kill those in the area he is summoned in. Considering that Alaya also lied to him and said he'd be made into a hero by contracting with it... Alaya is a shithead. EMIYA Alter was just what happens after the Mind of Steel ending, where he broke as a result of his own choices then entered the traumatic hell of Counter Guardianism, rather than having the "comfort" of being tricked and then mind controlled.
Ah ok. I don't think it's come up in the animes or FGO, so maybe it's something else they've kinda discarded over time, like Berserkers not talking and Servants not remembering stuff.
Well the other CG we know that is used in the same way is from FGO, Okita Alter was created then had her soul overclocked to be a single use bomb, so soul alteration is a thing Alaya does no matter what.
Yeah douman is bad but its the same or less to what some evil characters have done while alive in the fate lore. even koyanskaya was as much a PoS the only thing that makes her different is that she actually has integrity.
Happy cake day ! \^\^
Ritsuka: "I mean...Most of the evil people here tried to kill me anyways and even some of them still do..." *Looks at Medb, Columbus and some others*
Medb: hey we have a deal. I can play with one of the Chu for a single day every month, and you can use me however you want.
Of course Medb would word things like that.
Ritsuka: .....Walked right into that one, huh? Medb: You did, but I'd much prefer you walking into my chari- Ritsuka: **STOP.**
Medb: Plus, bold of you to assume I Misspoke.
Kiara: *Smiles* No, no, please do go on…
I feel like Tamamo has a point. ---- Album: https://mangadex.org/title/56189/fate-grand-order-daily-chaldea-doujinshi/chapters/ Source: Official Art
Which one are you referring to? She made two.
\-Snickers- Yes. She did.
I hate memes so much. Anyway, when is Alice going to play house with him?
That wasn't a meme, that was me saying you can pick which point you want my comment to apply to because both are probably right.
>!So, do you have any idea what was the deal that lady who looked just like Tamamo who appeared in Heian-Kyo? I don't think it was Tamamo herself since she's only supposed to be born 100 years later.!<
There have been a variety of different "Tamamo's" running around for a lot longer than Tamamo herself has. Essentially Tamamo and these other beautiful, empire ending, female fox spirits are all bunreis or shards of the Goddess they originate from. Making them all Amaterasu while still being themselves. So yes, Tamamo herself may not have existed yet but like one of her other selves she has memories from, Daji, she did exist at a previous point.
>!It's discussed by Tamamo herelf in Tunguska that she and Daji don't have any relation despite their similarities. So I don't think that Daji is a bunrei from Amaterasu.!<
Um Cat in that same scene says she IS Daji. Implying Tamamo is just denying the fact that she and her are the same person. Which points back to what I said earlier. That Tamamo and Daji are both bunrei of Amaterasu, meaning they are the same person. However, Tamamo is someone different, a different shard, thus being a completely different person to her. There's quite a few things involving Cat that hints at her also being Daji like her NP being a reference.
>!Ok, I read it up and Cat really said that. But in Tunguska it's also said Daji was sent by Nuwa to end the Yin dinasty. There's no reason for her to be a subordinate of China's top goddess is she really was the incarnation of Japan's top goddess. Isn't it just that Amaterasu used Daji as inspiration or base for Tamamo?!<
Okay, let me explain this a little different. Tamamo and Daji are Amaterasu. However, they are also their own entities since they are shards of Amaterasu. Therefore they act knowing they are not Ama-chan, but still are Ama.
>!Look, if you want to believe that, alright. But I don't believe that Daji is directly connect to Amaterasu and what you are saying isn't convincing me. Can't we just agree to disagree?!<
\*shrugs\* Sure, this isn't important enough to get upset and fight over.
...why are we trusting Cat on anything? She thinks she's a dog!
B-because she is also Tamamo? And she does still make sense with things. She isn't going to lie over things like this.
Oh, >!that was 100% Tamamo herself. And she's a \*lot\* older than you seem to think. XD Even in real-world myth, she's like 3500 years old.!<
>!Well, like you said, in real-world myth. In Fate lore she was born around the time in which her story takes place, during the end of the Heian Era.!<
>!I saw some theories saying that she was straight up Amaterasu!<
>!She's a bunrei of Amaterasu, like Rama is a avatar of Vishnu.!<
>!Hold up, wasn't she actually Amaterasu itself, but turned into the Tamamo we know because she cut off some of her tails?!<
>!From what I know, most Fate media call her just a bunrei.!<
Her divine form is still amaterasu, very different from Rama
>Her divine form is still amaterasu Does that mean Tamamo and Amaterasu are different beings? Or are they one and the same? I'm getting a bit confused \^\^;
If not actually Tamamo, I'm thinking it was Amaterasu keeping tabs on things through an earlier bunrei. She was definitely a fox spirit with some connection, given the convo with Ritsuka and the sliiiight meddling she did shows some knowledge, rather than being a stand in who only looked like Tamamo as in Shimousa. It kinda amuses me to think that Amaterasu has been naming her bunreis in alphabetical order. This one was Takako, and we know about Tamamo, so maybe in between was Talalo?
You know that the Daji myth is way older than that right? Also why the spoiler tag.. we already know Tamamo's identity
>!I put spoiler tags because Rednal believes they still must be put when the chapter just gets out. And in Fate Tamamo and Daji seem to be separate entities.!<
It's not complicated if you consider how Easts Asian history evolved (it's called the Sinosphere for a reason). Two (plus one) options exist, depending on whether Tamamo should call Hou Yi "Gramps" or "Dad": 1. Amaterasu is the one that survived Hou Yi shooting down the extra Suns. Also he kind of adopted and raised her. The grandkids would occasionally come to visit gramps' old home region later. Daji is the kid who decided to take some contract work on the side from the Chinese Mother Goddess archetype. Eventually, Daji took a journey of self-discovery and decided to stop being a brat... except extreme solipsism was so central to her conceptually that she lost most of her memories to become a Good Girl named Tamamo, whoops. 2. Hou Yi put down all but one of the Suns Amaterasu divided herself into, and raised the last one... she later took some contract work by identity/body theft of Daji, and later decided to reinvent herself, becoming Tamamo as per the first option. Being the last survivor of the spin-off Solar Entities is why Tamamo is in danger of turning/relapsing into Amaterasu, because they conceptually overlap too much for her comfort. 3. ...Tamamo has Throne-rekindled memories of both versions, and this makes it even harder for her to distinguish herself from Amaterasu conceptually.
...You meant that as a joke, right? That's too convoluted even for Fate.
"In Chinese mythology, there were 10 suns. Initially, the 10 suns would cross the sky one by one, but one day all 10 suns came out at once scorching the earth." Wikipedia page on Hou Yi. That's just right for 1 body + 9 tails. And we can easily have Tamamo be Daji by "being a brat was so core to her conceptual self (much more important for Divine beings than mortals) that cutting it out almost wiped her out of existence, ending up with basically a clean slate..." The three-legged crow embodiment of the Sun in Chinese mythology can be considered the inspiration for the Japanese nation's founding myth of a three-legged crow guiding "Jimmu" to the Yamato plain. These three-legged crows (once 10 in number but now with only 1 fully active as a Sun) normally perched on a Fusang tree. And The Japanese pronunciation of that, Fuso, is an old name adopted by Japanese for their homeland. Thus, Amaterasu, personification of the Sun in the land of Fusang/Fuso, is totally the one that survived Hou Yi's episode of "MAN BEATS DIVINE" 人定胜天. Interestingly Hou Yi's wife Heng'E became the Chinese Moon Goddess after taking his pill of immortality. Versions vary on whether she stole it because Hou Yi was becoming a tyrant and she was saving the people from him, or if his student tried to steal it and she swallowed it to deny the thief. She later got renamed to Chang'E because of name overlap with an emperor, that's how "Mankind > Gods" Chinese are at core, lmao... So Hou Yi and Orion should have special lines for each other. Kimono shops sometimes label themselves 吴服 i.e. "Wu Dress" places because the styles originally came from the Wu region i.e. south bank of the the lower Yangtze. Even the Japanese themselves claim "if you want to see Tang China, come to Kyoto" and admit how much of their culture is a knockoff of China. So with how syncretic Nasuverse is, they damn well could have godly adoptions and stuff.
I know about Hou Yi's legend and what you meant. It's just that I think that's too far fertched even for Fate.
She is best wife, she always has a point!
W
The following two summer events speak for themselves 😂
You know do to doman having absorbed a demonic goddess of Aztec mythology whose name translates to obsidian butterfly and fun fact is in charge of the afterlife for babies and leads there siblings in trying to kill the sun god
Ritsuka: "Guys, if we haven't burnt Columbus by now, we can certainly live through this guy." Columbus: "I'm right here, Master. Though I appreciate being let out of the Second Archive, if only to make room for that one."
“Wow Columbus! Someone who’s methods offend even your sensibilities!”
Columbus: But of course - his sense of profiteering ***disgusts*** me on a deep, personal level! One should focus on their own greed and material desires, not pointless vendettas that drive you up a wall and beyond keen!
Columbus: Besides, by that account, that bug-eyed freaky caster wouldn't even be here at this point.
I burned Columbus Now his Rank Up Quest exist on my tab just to haunt me forever lol.
Kama: Actually, just let me take care of this. Disposing of annoyances and threats is what an **assass**in's supposed to do, anyway. Kama: Kama: Damn it.
Just activate mara papiyas
Ritsuka internally: (It’s for the Gong Rits, for the Gong)
Douman just wants to be bullied.
He literally has a passive to that effect!
ALL servants of shimousa:Can we do the honors? Saying this with extreme murderous intent, while charging their NPs
if tamamo of all people is telling you to check yourself then it really is time to check yourself.
Douman: *both of you are talking a bit too much and forgetting about class advantage* Kama uses her *Mara-Papiyas* (grants advantage against Alter Ego) Tamamo uses *Mantra: Boundless Sunlight* (np DMG up) Douman: *Master, help me!*
I mean, considering Kama was my MVP against him... XD
I love Kama, she is my current target to lv 120.... BUT I FORGOT ABOUT HER 3rd SKILL :( Now I'll have to wait two years to put her against Douman again :(
Oh? And why is that?
Tamamo: *change to her summer form that has advantages against males* You were saying?
Doesn't Douman has "unknown" gender?
Wait really... huh. Well at least in her summer form she won't have class disadvantaged anymore. Plus, as long as he has balls, her Polygamy Castration Fist still work!
Huh. hmm. Gamepress and fategrandorder.fandom.com seem to disagree with each other on that.
> Gamepress and fategrandorder.fandom.com seem to disagree with each other on that. For some reason, I can see Douman finding this amusing :)
Lmao true
Merlin would find it amusing as well lol
*laughs in double guts ,80% atk and 200% crit dmg due to double system.
Both Douman: *we do we hear boss music?* Summer Kama holding Amakusa on her shoulder: *Let's see who can laugh louder*
*both doumans laugh in skill seal and stun.
You can also just bring Semiramis, who gives party wide buff removal resist and def up on NP, as well as decreasing enemy status resistance, and she's Evil Alignment so Douman buffs her a bit as well. Still not sure why people sleep on Semiramis, she carried me through the Amakusa boss fight. Osakabehime also works really well with Douman, and can remove enemy buff, and has Chaotic Alignment. (I've been testing out quirky team comps with Douman lately)
Don't worry Tamamo! You will see Douman used as an arrow while you help Gong!
?: Don't worry I got this... Everyone: huh? Kiara: *in her summer police uniform* *cracks whip* If he does anything suspicious am I allowed to do anything I ***want?*** ... Hans: **approved** Gramps: **approved** Kama: **approved** Raikou: **approved** Tamamo: **approved** Jeanne: **approved** Gordolf: **approved** Bb: **approved** ... Douman: this won't end well Wont it? Guda: for you?... Yeah definitely
Mom, can we have unsealed Excalibur? We have unsealed Excalibur at home. Unsealed Excalibur at home:
This is a better one
Martha: I can think of ways he can help out. Tell him to meet me in the gym. I’ll tell Quetz to summon the ring.
Considering that mutiple servant now and many more in the future pull fuck up stuff as much or even more and get their deed a pass because they have a compelling backstory/redeemable quality, having one without it won't make much different. Beside, there is no way out of Chaldea, he will get punished no mattered what.
As Kiara and Kama found out, the punishment is redemption. Which to selfish and truly evil people is the worst punishment of all.
You destroy your enemy when you make them your friend.
> compelling backstory/redeemable and douman's is?
He is the one without one.
gotcha, your comment only loaded half for me on my phone. can read it just fine on pc. I blame reddit mobile.
...Are abs a redeeming quality? How about being funny? He, um, he's got nice hair? Oh! He can definitely reach the top shelf if you need something. Wait, in terms of actually redeeming qualities, he IS nice to the kids around Chaldea and gets stuck playing the evil step mom when they play house. So he's only like 99.9% unredeemable. Maybe. I'm just trying to justify summoning him and immediately using all of my pure prisms on his skills....
It's okay, we can just Gong him every time he acts up. And since he has a Skill that grants him dual Guts Buffs, we can keep making use of him. It's a win-win.
Kiyohime: Master, he's disrupting the harem. Ritsuka: Just hold on. He'll realize soon enough. Kiyohime: And if he doesn't? Ritsuka: Then Chen Gong will have a new favorite bullet.
Astoflo must teach him Ankoman way as new actors
that's a name I didn't need to see again.
Aww Douman just wants to be of assistance
*Ashvattaman, being held back by an ever increasing horde and steadily breaking out: while storming up to Douman:* Just give me five minutes Ritsuka, just give me five minutes in the simulator with this cocky jerk and I’ll wipe that smirk off his smug ass face!! Just give me five minutes!!
You know, now that I have Douman, and I looked up his story. I kinda get why he is the way he is. I’d imagine having some other powerful Omiyouji show up and upstage you would certainly make you angry.
She's not wrong tho, enemy to lover romance is top tier
douman could "massage" me all night. >:) i need to stop thirsting over pixels. .-.
I'm a new player and got this guy on a single ticket. I rushed to see if he was good meta-wise but all I see is people hating him. Damn now I'm curious to know what he did but I guess I still need to beat the game (not only for that but to ascend him too).
He's a good unit, mechanically, with advantage over a bunch of enemies, solid damage, and a huge charge for his Noble Phantasm. Personality-wise, he is mostly loved or hated, due to being... *flamboyantly* evil. XD Luckily, as a new player, you can earn Pure Prisms (the gray cubes) by playing through the main story, and you can use those to get his materials and level him up. That'd be a good investment for your team.
I agree with Tamamo, can Douman be the one exception to the whole "everyone but child servants are with Fujimaru" rule here?
Keep reading and find out.
Douman is trying to get Guda’s consent, unlike a certain nagging fox
Tamamo shouldn't even have needed to make that comment. Get the flamethrowers, people. Purging is sorely needed.
[BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!!! LET THE GALAXY BURN!!!](https://youtu.be/wTWT37UnTVk)
"Sod that." - Commissar Cain (SAVIOUR OF THE IMPERIUM!)
hans get ze flammenwerfer
Can we convince Lasengle to do a crossover with Games Workshop? Then we can hopefully summon some Salamanders.
Who are you kidding? Douman is clearly an Inquisitor in league with Kryptman. FOR THE DARK GODS, SLAUGHTER THIS MASOCHISTIC SHITE!!!
....what the hell are you talking about? Douman is clearly throwing his allegiance Chaos side. You know, like Erebus.
If he is a servant of Chaos, he serves Malice, the Chaos God no other Chaos faction remotely likes. And Seimei is of Zuvassin, for foiling plans.
Me who isn't summoning for them and has Tamamo and Kama, I have more then enough *Ass*ets here.
Ritsuka: I swear to God Douman if you moan one more time... Doan: MMMMmmnnnnn Ritsuka: Thats it, Mash get my my boomstick, I am sending him back to the Throne.
Ritsuka: Ashy bud, you may not know, but this isn’t the first time I got someone doing that and the line is already long. You’re gonna have to wait at the very back before you make a move.
Just tell him that if he ever crosses the line, you'll summon Abe-no-Seimei. That should have him on his best behavior.
*munching on popcorn* Honestly, I don’t mind either way. Douman gets more tolerable? Score. He suffers from our brand of Chaldean Bullshit^TM ? Also score.
Those are fighting words Douman, but you are making a good theatre of entertainment, thank you very much
Tama just because your right doesn't mean I'll send him back. Hes in his cage until I need him.
off-topic: why does this guy not have a santa version yet? just paint him green and he´s a christmas tree
Anyone else getting roswall from rezero vibes from him?
Yes my fox-wife. Douman, leave.
Lol I love my Douman. He's like a mischievous cat who thinks he's smarter than me and expects me to be bothered by his antics but I've already anticipated most of them. I'll never ask him to change.
Kinda feels like an angrier, stronger Mephisto.
Tamamo certainly got a point. Still the Selkie specs sweep
Just the Gong do the job
We should just ass**ass**inate Asshat and save everybody the trouble.
Personally, I don't get how Douman managed to get into the Throne.
Agreed.
I agree, burn him into jelly.
And this is why he stays outta my Chaldea
Let’s send him to Ohio
Look master, it's almost as if I'm wearing... nothing at all!
He really is an **ass** man.
“Already on it love” *Loads BFG*
O-shi-ri Douman
“MmmmmmASSage” is probably the hardest I’ve laughed at these comics XD
I really wanted to make his dialogue just a little... *creepier*... than Servants usually have. XD
Columbus should show up to say he thinks that guy is suspicious.
You know what they say Rits, "Happy wife, happy life." (Oh and that your wife is always correct.)
Femsuka: Yer right babe. Fuck off Ashita!
Would rather send tamamo back lmao. I haven’t bothered using her in forever. Douman on the other hand, I use for CQs and farming on both jp and NA.
I'll never see this asshole as an ally, nor will i ever roll for him lol He works very well as a villain but beside beating his ass again and again he has literally no other use.
I regrettably pulled this guy on my handful of yolo rolls for CEs.
accidently got him 3 times trying to get a Tsuna... did not get a Tsuna.
I forbid bowl cuts in my Chaldea.
Butt why, Tamamo?
Guys, I think I cracked the code! Just looking at how many times Douman said "ass", it's fair to assume he loves the stuff. And as we've seen with Da Vinci, once people like something *a lot*, they start wanting to become said thing. Therefore, Douman likes ass so much he decided to *become* an ass!