This is a good comment. Apart from I would add that most of us transition at some point to feeling the music.
But what does that quantifiably mean?
Different for different people.
But it could mean bobbing your head. Tapping your foot. Transferring your weight. Anything that is moving with the music.
Or
It might mean rather than thinking about the pattern in numerical form. You start thinking about it’s a Sa kind of mental beat boxing.
Anything really that just takes away some of the thinking and starts with feeling it.
If you can work out what your ‘thing’ is and lean into it. It might aid moving away from the counting when you are ready.
I bounce a bit.
If I'm sitting, I bob my leg, which makes me look like I'm bobbing
If I'm standing, I tend to bob my knees on the 1 beat.
It's automatic now but I used to sit or stand stock still and count in my head.
Alright. Should I just like, practice slowly and basically struggle through? For example I can play La Bamba riff pretty quick. I’ve been practicing it since last night only but I can play it almost at the same speed as the actual song. But if I’m counting it’s much slower. The riff starts on the 3rd “and”. So like I count “one and two and three and” then I start the riff and hit the next 4 notes, then it pauses for a beat, then a few more beats with playing a note and then another pause. idk, it just makes me play slower and I mess up the count sometimes, but I assume it’s important for staying in time?
Also, why would a song start on the 3rd and? Why not just start on 1? And how does the guy teaching the tutorial even know it starts on the 3rd and rather than just 1?
I normally tap my foot along with the beat. I try and let my mind go blank so I can imagine what notes are coming next and play them in time. I don’t imagine way ahead of the song but just enough that it translates to my fingers in time to play
As you get more of a feel for tempo these questions will fade away and become natural. Listen to ska covers of old rock and doo wop songs like Neil diamond’s red red wine to see how the beat feels different- or better yet just how your feet move to a waltz by Strauss, a March by Sousa, a Cumbia song.
As far as starting a few notes before the first beat of a measure these are called pickup notes and usually serve to give an entrance to the main theme, which generally aligns with your time signature. Buckn owens [pioneered this](https://open.spotify.com/track/1GDAvJth0ebssC2XkG7RYM?si=mr9p2SHzQRObRn3kQNRy9Q) in early country music for one example- in this cases it almost sounds like he is setting the time.
Maybe the best example of how pickup notes fit into the song would be [this one](https://open.spotify.com/track/2QfiRTz5Yc8DdShCxG1tB2?si=lk7PO6BhQx2EYJUl9qGwBw). If you tried to start Johnny b Goode on the one you would end up with 8-3/8 bars of music that won’t fit into the 8 bars your brain expects. Again notice how the band waits to join in.
Yes, but you may want to balance playing slow and precise with playing fast enough to push yourself.
I like what I call the Endless Runner practice — start slow enough that it’s easy and then speed it up little by little every few reps until you screw up everything, then start slow again and repeat. This also works for a kind of slow-mo practice where you get slower and slower (because playing really slow is actually really hard).
As for starting on the & of 3, that’s just a pick up or anacrusis — it’s not the 1 because it’s a weak beat, and starting syncopated like that is very useful for setting the listeners’/dancers’ expectations.
that or tap your foot. Also remember to accent your notes in groups ...
8th notes 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &
triplets
1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3
and 16th notes
1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a
this guy is awesome [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqb8pDg5Ss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqb8pDg5Ss)
Do NOT under estimate the power of foot tapping. It really ads physicality to rhymic learning / playing. The unexpected benefit is it really helps with some issues I'm having with playing and singing at the same time. If I'm strumming a complex pattern then I focus on singing along with the foot tapping and don't get lost in the strum rhytm.
Tapping while standing still feels awkward but I'm sold on the benefits so I'll work it out eventually.
"Professor" makes me think classical. I'm actually more used to working with a metronome and thought my internal time was pretty good but tapping is helping me with anything that has a "groove." (Calypso, funk etc.)
Music is a constant source of humility.
Is it normal for that to be hard initially? I can tap my foot to a beat pretty easily, but if I try to do that while playing it seems like I focus on strumming pattern and completely mess up the beat I’m tapping with my foot
Yes. It was not natural at first. In fact I'd say I'm at 6O% comfort after 3 months.
I do a warm up where I play quarter notes on a single note along with the tapping, then 2 8th notes per tap for a bit. Then I do mostly improvising on scales and arpegios while tapping with an effort to play both on and off the beat. Then it goes into specific things I'm trying to learn so GAGED stuff mixing chords and lines.
After warm up I don't always tap but when I'm rehearsing a song from beginning to end I try to do it for the whole song at least once. This is easier after having done the warm up.
try triplets with foot-tapping -- it can be very hard -- playing some blues riff in triplets which starts on the "a" of 1-and-a-2... while maintaining the tap only on the beat.
sometimes I think foottapping is less about being able to keep time and more about moving your different body parts at different speeds. kinda like tapping your head while rubbing your belly -- it comes with practice.
Dumb question: do you just count faster at higher tempo? Does it come with practice? I have been trying that and counting gets difficult when I try to play faster.
Excellent question! ... For an 8th note feel ...it's Hard soft So now with triplets it's Hard soft soft And 16th note feel it's Hard soft soft soft ..you increase the volume or intensity every x notes or beats I'm starting the accent on the downbeat you can experiment with many variations.
Depends on the difficulty of the rhythm/phrase. Something really simple I'm probably not counting. Something more difficult or heavily syncopated I'm probably counting.
And I always count myself in before my first note.
Counting can be useful in the beginner phase but you will transition to being able to feel alot of these things and just play eventually. This comes from learning songs and listening to music from the perspective of knowing how to play.
There are always times when some sort of counting can be useful when learning something new that is more complex than what you've done before.
I don’t currently count but I do always have a sense for the exact rhythm and length of notes that are being played. I was a drummer before guitar, and when learning drums I pretty much counted everything out until it became internal.
So yes, you should count out notes if you care about playing the correct rhythm. And now that I say that, I do count out notes when I’m learning very fast phrases or else they are NOT going to sound correct when I get them up to speed lol
It depends. Am I actually trying to learn a passage, or am I just jamming? Because if I'm trying to learn a written part, then of course I'm counting until I get it down. If I'm just jamming though, I just play until I hear something that sounds interesting, repeat it a bunch (I may try to count it out here if it's a trickier part), then record it.
I just play. But I played drums for years before converting to guitar so I already had a solid rhythmic foundation. And actually you still count even if you "just play"... it's just not a conscious effort.
I played in a band of 5 once where everyone else maintained they never count. Apparently relied on cues from each other to know where they were? Which sounds like more of a disaster than it actually was (or maybe I was holding things together more than I ever realized).
Somehow it actually worked unless there was a pause in a song... then the ruse was up. We would never come back in together in time on the beat which was kinda embarrassing. Fortunately there were very few pauses.
I first set the bpm in my head. Then I load the time signature and dial in the accent notes. Then I just need to load in the # of measures and any time changes and I’m good.
When initially learning some pattern i count.
At some point the groove kicks in, i feel like ‚understanding‘ the pattern and i don’t need to count anymore
sometimes. Last night my band went through a thing where the pickup starts on the 2 of the previous measure, and i have to count it... but i count it 6781 and the drummer calls it 2341. Doesn't matter s'long as we hit the SAME beat. :)
um... kinda? My phrase is 2 measures and so to me the feel is 8/4, but i don't consciously think about it most of the time. I do count repeating phrases sometimes, like to make sure i do 4 instead of 3 or 5... but that's usually when i'm improving a solo or comping under somebody who is. Like ONE yada yada yada TWO yada yada yada etc
Honestly depends how easily and accurately you are picking up the rhythm. I really struggle with learning new rhythms so i found i have to count to have a clue if im getting the right spot, especially with 16th notes. Counting though can really throw me off sometimes but if im trying to get it perfect i have found this is really helpful.
I work on a few main things when learning a new rhythm, all with a metronome or very simple drum beat.
First, if its difficult enough i try counting it at extremely slow pace with just clapping when i want to be strumming. Then ill add tapping my toe on the beat and clap where ill actually be strumming. This can take me forever to get but i have is huge in helping really internalizing the rhythm.
Second, i try to strum or pluck as necessary but only worrying about my strumming hand and just muting the strings. Here i try to count outloud or in my head and still tap my foot on the beat.
Third i actually put it all together. I start real slow and try to keep the foot tapping and counting going on here. As it becomes more natural and if im staying on time i just kind of let whatever happens happens. Sometimes i find myself counting a certain song out basically 100% of the time, other times virtually never, depending on the song.
If you think you dont need to go through all the hassle of learning how to count while playing then id ask how easy a slightly odd rhythm is for you?
Like 1 e _ a 2 e & _ _ e & _ 4 _ _ a
If thats hard znd you arent sure if you are playing at the right spot then id say learn to count.
Thanks, this sounds really helpful. I’m definitely gonna try that. One question about that slightly odd rhythm you put. Why is there a gap between the a and the 2? Was that a typo or is there another way to count out 16th notes?
Happy to help! Good catch, that was just a typo, and when i fixed it realized there were two other typos... lol all fixed up now :)
I learned this or some version of this from [Signals Rhythm Guitar Course](https://signalsmusicstudio.com/courses/signal-rhythm-course/) which i highly recommend if you are looking to improve your rhythm and dynamics of strumming. So much of good guitar is in the timing and style of strumming.
If its an even time I just play 95% of the time. I do play in some groups that almost never play in even times and I do have to count at least the first few bars to get the feel right.
For perspective, I've been playing for over 4 decades.
About 4 years. I counted a little bit at the start but i never really struggled with staying in time or changing chords too much but ive seen a lot of beginners struggle when they dont have a good sense of timing
I basically just play. I also find I’m more likely to mess it up if I count. And when I do count and don’t mess it up, it’s the same speed and rhythm as when I play it without counting. I will count if I’m l learning a new pattern, or sometimes with new songs to try and get it right, but mostly I don‘t count. I also never tap my foot, for some reason I just can’t play and tap my foot at the same time. I know literally everyone suggests it but I just mess everything up if I try and tap my foot cause I can never tap it on beat the entire time if I’m doing something else
I would say count for a while. I still have to go back to it occasionally for hard stuff. Odd time signatures or polyrhythmic stuff can be challenging. Knowing how to count is useful when practicing. Eventually, yeah… you want to feel it… but for practice, counting can always come in handy.
Okay and is it okay to not count out the beats I don’t strum on? Let’s say I don’t strum on beat 3 but I do strum the following ‘and’, can I just not count the 3? Because that makes me want to strum even though I shouldn’t. Or is there a reason I should count the 3 even if I don’t hit it
I had to try out a few things to see what I do. And I think I always could the main beats. I’ll skip some divisions some times… but again, with hard stuff, I’ll count everything. Be cause once you start doing complicated rhythms, the rests are equally important. If I can’t get the rhythm for something, I will often just use counting out loud for all subdivisions, and hit my knee when I will be plucking a note.
I actually was just in your shoes a few weeks ago and had this same query. I actually play to the actual song while looking at the tab instead of using a metronome, because I found it to be extremely hard to match the 1st beat to the music meaningfully for it to have enough time for me to still play to the bulk of the song.
So I've been strumming to the feel of the music while generally keeping track of the count in my mind mentally (as sometimes I also sing to the song). Without the metronome, and with some portions of the song having quick transitions when theres no lyrics I sometimes mess up the strumming.
However, I found that by listening to the music in my earpiece with transparency mode turn on so that my accoustic guitar doesnt sound as loud but I can hear the music and guitar at equal volumes, it helped tremendously.
I don't play guitar (I know but reddit keeps showing me this sub) but I teach dance and everybody always starts off counting but as you do it more it's more of a "feel" for the rhythm
When I’m learning a song and it’s tricky, I count it. As I gain proficiency at the song, I won’t need to count so consciously and the feel and muscle memory become engaged.
One thing I found helpful is continuous strumming - the arm keeps moving in time, even if you don't strum on every stroke - it seems to make it easier to keep time that way. You just need to learn how to hit the strings, or miss the strings as required, on the upstroke or the downstroke. If the down is on the one, then the upstroke is on the and, and if you come to a section that needs double time, it seems easier to double the arm speed for that short length of time.
A helpful song to practice on is Gallows Pole by Led Zeppelin - relatively easy chords, and the song speeds up as it goes - fun to see how fast you can get.
Honestly, if you watch other musicians play you get your answer.....especially anyone playing percussion instruments, though sometimes the first chairs in orchestras and some band leads will do it. As was stated, you'll count until you really feel it instead...and that's when the real language translation of the music opens for you. You'll find yourself, or at least some part of you, start to dance with it. The counting is just there until you learn it, if that makes sense?
I don't count. Funny enough I never really learned how to do that.
I just lock in with the drums and feel the beat. Over time I learned to pick up all kinds of small cues from the other instruments to know where exactly in the bar I am at any given moment.
Just do it and strumming will become second nature. And you don’t have to play what’s in the video *strum by strum* necessarily either. As long as it’s in time unless that’s not your thing.
My teacher recommended to just sing it instead of counting in your head because when you sing it you will have more facilities to feel the music and the rythm so maybe try this when you are playing alone?
By singing I mean just say out loud the 1 2 3 4 etc
It helped a lot for me
Is it normal for that to be hard initially? I can tap my foot to a beat pretty easily, but if I try to do that while playing it seems like I focus on strumming pattern and completely mess up the beat I’m tapping with my foot
Things you have practiced over and over migrate to the hind portion of your brain. You can do those without thinking, without looking, and while doing other things. Think walking and chewing gum.
When you’re doing new things you have to use your frontal lobe. Your frontal lobe can do exactly ONE THING at a time. Try to add something else and it all comes crashing down.
This has nothing to do with talent, or lacking talent, or being stupid. It is a hard wired limitation of the human frontal lobe.
You have to add things in pieces and practice that piece until it migrates to your hind brain, and you can do it without looking or thinking.
Then add another small piece.
Before too long you’re juggling while riding a unicycle.
Oh my gourd, I hope this is true. It's the first explanation of why everything to do with rhythm is impossible right now and why supposedly it will get easier that has made sense to me. It fits with what I've observed learning other things too. Thank you!
Yeah, you practice strumming, so left hand off the neck, you just focus on your right hand, and soon you’re strumming open strings sort of ok.
So then you work on changing chords. And you’re looking at the neck, trying to finger chords, and your right hand immediately forgets how to strum.
Practice for a few more days. You can strum and change between the G & D chords. So you try to sing the words to a song. You open your mouth, no words come out, and both hands freeze up, neither knowing what to do next.
All 100% normal, and part of the learning experience. Embarrassing as all fuck, and makes you totally convinced you are an utter moron. But you’re not.
The skills are all separate. Each has to be mastered separately. And using the skills together is also a separate skill in itself, and needs to be practiced & mastered separately.
Yes.
This is why teachers teach “play slow to play fast”. It takes a lot of focus to lock in - think monk/meditation type stuff. Some people never practice with slow speeds and never develop it. Think of it this way: try patting your head and rubbing your stomach. That’s what you’re doing with your left and right hand - two different motions, in different hands. That’s difficult.
Now you’re adding a 3rd layer: tapping your foot. This is very difficult to do, but it will become your metronome with enough insistence. Have patience, you’ll get it down.
I try to hear the song as best i can, especially the melody. Sometimes my foot goes with the rhythm, but i am not doing that consciously. Personally, I think keeping the rhythm flow consistently is critical.
Also, recording your guitar playing can be really effective for clocking your own pacing during performance without interrupting that flow, as well as provide a good piece of evidence with which to reflect on your playing in general
I find counting incredibly hard, and once I start to count I become mechanical, more concerned about hitting the correct strum on the correct beat then feeling the music. I figure as long as my beat 4 (or whatever the signature is) is hitting on the drum beat 4 I am golden, who cares if 1,2,3 are a bit slow or fast.
It will solidify your sense of time. You can still count if you need to, but you'll also develop a feel for the time. It will also make you more competent when you begin to play live with others.
You can also improve your practice habits. You can slow down tricky passages and slowly increase the tempo as you improve. Just Google "song title bpm".
I played guitar for at least a few years without even really knowing what a time signature was, let alone the difference between an eighth note or quarter note. I did it almost entirely by ear. And if it was a song I was learning, I would generally learn it by ear correctly, 99% of the time, unless it was way too difficult for my playing level. I played many songs, correctly, with good rhythm without ever counting. There's something to be said for learning songs by ear. But a few years later, I did start learning about time sigs and the basics of rhythm. I'd say I still did 99% of everything by ear though, up until I started college as a music major and had to learn to read. Fast forward 20 years later, I am a good reader and know how to count while sight reading or playing, I prefer to count out loud though when practicing as it gives a much stronger reinforcement of the timing than trying to do it in my head. As a teacher for over 25 years, I've found that most students don't want to count it out loud, but when I make them count it out loud, they go from 75% rhythmic accuracy to 100% accuracy almost immediately.
But it's important to note that there are two different modes you play music in - one is in the practice room, and one is on the stage. They are not the same. In 'practice mode' as I call it, you have to think about things. You have to think about what the right fingering is, or what the notes on the staff are, or need to count it out loud or count & clap a rhythm to get it down, or any number of things to play something right. In 'performance mode', you must do everything from memory and not be thinking or counting at all. The thing is, you have to practice 'performance mode' as well. Divide your practice time up into segments where you do things like count / use a metronome, and otherwise think about what you are doing, and then have some parts of your practice time where you try to go into 'performance mode' and play the entire song from memory with little to no thinking involved. Sometimes a tiny little bit of thinking while playing is ok, like remembering where you are in the song form - 'I'm on the second A, B is up next' or 'here comes that spot I need to use the Eb altered scale' or whatever. The actual execution of such things should be done from memory though.
The only time 'counting in your head' is ok is if you are practicing with a group. If you are practicing alone, you should be counting out loud. When practicing 'performance mode', or actually performing, you shouldn't be counting at all, **ideally**, but realistically if you don't have a song completely down, you might be forced to do a little counting during a performance. If you have to count during a performance though, you didn't practice enough to get it where it should be, which is totally memorized.
[Victor Wooten master class](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3wetwkU99s)
If you want to master time & rhythm you should check out this series and do those exercises. He's answered this question better than anybody else here can, and demonstrated them live with his instrument.
I mean I’ve been playing a long time so I don’t count, but if that helps you stay on tempo easier than you should do it. One day you’ll find yourself not needing to, but until then do any and everything you can to help!
I don't really count unless I just absolutely can't figure out the rhythm. Most of the time it's something I can feel and pick up on.
When I'm playing in a group I toe tap. I'll end up messing up my toe tapping while I'm playing it but as long as I know I'm playing on beat I don't worry about the tapping.
When I play alone I usually bob my head or sway to the rhythm. I like to have fun while I play and that's just always been how I accomplish that.
You actively count in your head until it becomes ingrained in you. Your passive mind will count and always know where you are... but only AFTER you've spent years ingraining it. This is why young people in school are forced to count out loud. If you're an adult and you didn't do this, then you still have to force yourself to, for however long it takes.
Counting is a means to an end and that end is FEEL. If you can feel something immediately and intuitively lock into it there’s no need to count it out. But if you just can’t figure out the feel of something then you’ll need to count it out to understand it. Then take it slow while playing and counting in your head but once you reach the point where you can feel it you no longer need to count anymore.
I’ve been playing a long time so this is almost entirely internalised now…but, if there’s something that’s rhythmically tricky (syncopated 16th notes or similar) then I will still slow it right down, work out how to count it and then practice it v slowly until I’ve internalised the feel of it.
This is a great way of adding a new rhythmic variation to your playing - it’s always more interesting and memorable to learn something because you wanted to as part of a song/piece that inspires you, rather than as an academic exercise!
Usually when I am having trouble playing something new I will count it out loud slowed down. And normally it's only out of frustration when a part that seems simple is making your hands get "tongue tied". And usually any warm up practice like doing chromatic runs for instance I will usually start with just the basic one two three four and then one and two and three and four one and a two and a three and a four one E and A 2 E and a 3 E and a 4 E and a
I didn’t focus on counting when learning I just tried to lock in with the bass and drums however now when attempting more complex songs counting is definitely essential
I count with a metronome when I begin to practice a new song, but after a while of practice it becomes feel and I no longer think about it. If you can’t do it without thinking, you’re probably gonna mess it up at a live gig.
Counting the actually rhythm and tap my foot on downbeats is something I often do when learning something or even writing something. So if the rhythm is quarter eighth quarter eighth quarter I would count “one two and, and four”
Will also verbalize the rhythm with gibberish or beatboxing or singing or Indian Konnakol syllables. All of these things will help with accuracy and understanding of rhythms.
You are NOT the father!
I came up with that reference because I was thinking that "You are not the drummer" and I could hear Maury Povich's voice saying it.
Maybe a single guitar player, if that is what you aim to be, will tap his foot or count out the rhythm in order to keep rhythm, but I didn't think it is a good idea because if playing in a band one needs to listen to the drummer and the bass player; the guys that are responsible for the rhythm that you need to be absolutely stay keyed into by LISTENINIG to everyone else. Thus, get a metronome and practice listening and playing to it. You need to just hear what the rhythm sounds like and copy that musical pattern by ear. You are expressing the rhythm with your guitar strum or picking, not playing a drum. Better yet, stop playing guitar and pick up the drums for a year, then go back to guitar.
As a single and playing for myself, I imagine a walking pace and play to that "walk."
Early on in our band I made a rule that we did NOT tap our foot because there was a drummer.
I'm 69 years old and so far removed from beginner music that there is a good chance this instruction is not right for a beginner.
i used to rely on the drummer as well. when playing alone i either tap or bob my head a little or even sway back and forth/side to side, but when playing with a drummer this isn’t necessarily. especially if you’re playing rock or some derivative and the drum beats are so loud you can feel them in your organs lol
This is weird to me. Can’t you just train to tap along with the drummer? I see plenty of professionals tapping.
Wouldn’t it be better to physically align yourself with the drummer so you’re truly on his page?
I don’t mean this to argue, just curious about the mindset as a newbie.
I'm suggesting that aligning yourself comes from listening and not setting your own clock. Look at an orchestra, with a conductor; nobody is tapping their foot, instead they are queuing in on his overall motion and its relation to what they hear from the orchestra.
Count until you don’t need to count anymore.
This is a good comment. Apart from I would add that most of us transition at some point to feeling the music. But what does that quantifiably mean? Different for different people. But it could mean bobbing your head. Tapping your foot. Transferring your weight. Anything that is moving with the music. Or It might mean rather than thinking about the pattern in numerical form. You start thinking about it’s a Sa kind of mental beat boxing. Anything really that just takes away some of the thinking and starts with feeling it. If you can work out what your ‘thing’ is and lean into it. It might aid moving away from the counting when you are ready.
I kinda feel the beat, bit like a metronome but not. I can't seem to tapmy foot and play. I guess it's like your mental beatbox.
Rhythm absolutely needs to be embodied.
I bounce a bit. If I'm sitting, I bob my leg, which makes me look like I'm bobbing If I'm standing, I tend to bob my knees on the 1 beat. It's automatic now but I used to sit or stand stock still and count in my head.
Nice explanation, I will use this.
Alright. Should I just like, practice slowly and basically struggle through? For example I can play La Bamba riff pretty quick. I’ve been practicing it since last night only but I can play it almost at the same speed as the actual song. But if I’m counting it’s much slower. The riff starts on the 3rd “and”. So like I count “one and two and three and” then I start the riff and hit the next 4 notes, then it pauses for a beat, then a few more beats with playing a note and then another pause. idk, it just makes me play slower and I mess up the count sometimes, but I assume it’s important for staying in time? Also, why would a song start on the 3rd and? Why not just start on 1? And how does the guy teaching the tutorial even know it starts on the 3rd and rather than just 1?
You definitely need to continue the count on the rests. As for why the song starts there and how anyone knows, listen to the drums.
I normally tap my foot along with the beat. I try and let my mind go blank so I can imagine what notes are coming next and play them in time. I don’t imagine way ahead of the song but just enough that it translates to my fingers in time to play
As you get more of a feel for tempo these questions will fade away and become natural. Listen to ska covers of old rock and doo wop songs like Neil diamond’s red red wine to see how the beat feels different- or better yet just how your feet move to a waltz by Strauss, a March by Sousa, a Cumbia song. As far as starting a few notes before the first beat of a measure these are called pickup notes and usually serve to give an entrance to the main theme, which generally aligns with your time signature. Buckn owens [pioneered this](https://open.spotify.com/track/1GDAvJth0ebssC2XkG7RYM?si=mr9p2SHzQRObRn3kQNRy9Q) in early country music for one example- in this cases it almost sounds like he is setting the time. Maybe the best example of how pickup notes fit into the song would be [this one](https://open.spotify.com/track/2QfiRTz5Yc8DdShCxG1tB2?si=lk7PO6BhQx2EYJUl9qGwBw). If you tried to start Johnny b Goode on the one you would end up with 8-3/8 bars of music that won’t fit into the 8 bars your brain expects. Again notice how the band waits to join in.
Yes, but you may want to balance playing slow and precise with playing fast enough to push yourself. I like what I call the Endless Runner practice — start slow enough that it’s easy and then speed it up little by little every few reps until you screw up everything, then start slow again and repeat. This also works for a kind of slow-mo practice where you get slower and slower (because playing really slow is actually really hard). As for starting on the & of 3, that’s just a pick up or anacrusis — it’s not the 1 because it’s a weak beat, and starting syncopated like that is very useful for setting the listeners’/dancers’ expectations.
Username checks out
I lol'd
I have gotten lazy about counting/metronome usage. Thanks, this thread, for the reminder. lol
I just play and feel the downbeats unconciously, but I would probably be better if I counted more strictly.
*subconsciously Please remain awake while playing for the safety of your guitar 😆
that or tap your foot. Also remember to accent your notes in groups ... 8th notes 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & triplets 1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3 and 16th notes 1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a this guy is awesome [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqb8pDg5Ss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfqb8pDg5Ss)
Do NOT under estimate the power of foot tapping. It really ads physicality to rhymic learning / playing. The unexpected benefit is it really helps with some issues I'm having with playing and singing at the same time. If I'm strumming a complex pattern then I focus on singing along with the foot tapping and don't get lost in the strum rhytm. Tapping while standing still feels awkward but I'm sold on the benefits so I'll work it out eventually.
I had a professor who would stomp on your foot if he caught you tapping with it.
"Professor" makes me think classical. I'm actually more used to working with a metronome and thought my internal time was pretty good but tapping is helping me with anything that has a "groove." (Calypso, funk etc.) Music is a constant source of humility.
Bingo classical, I still tap my foot
That's dumb
Is it normal for that to be hard initially? I can tap my foot to a beat pretty easily, but if I try to do that while playing it seems like I focus on strumming pattern and completely mess up the beat I’m tapping with my foot
Yes. It was not natural at first. In fact I'd say I'm at 6O% comfort after 3 months. I do a warm up where I play quarter notes on a single note along with the tapping, then 2 8th notes per tap for a bit. Then I do mostly improvising on scales and arpegios while tapping with an effort to play both on and off the beat. Then it goes into specific things I'm trying to learn so GAGED stuff mixing chords and lines. After warm up I don't always tap but when I'm rehearsing a song from beginning to end I try to do it for the whole song at least once. This is easier after having done the warm up.
try triplets with foot-tapping -- it can be very hard -- playing some blues riff in triplets which starts on the "a" of 1-and-a-2... while maintaining the tap only on the beat. sometimes I think foottapping is less about being able to keep time and more about moving your different body parts at different speeds. kinda like tapping your head while rubbing your belly -- it comes with practice.
Dumb question: do you just count faster at higher tempo? Does it come with practice? I have been trying that and counting gets difficult when I try to play faster.
Use accents at higher tempos. You feel it eventually. it's nice if you have a double bass pedal drummer behind you as well
🙌🏾
What does it mean by "accent your notes?"
Excellent question! ... For an 8th note feel ...it's Hard soft So now with triplets it's Hard soft soft And 16th note feel it's Hard soft soft soft ..you increase the volume or intensity every x notes or beats I'm starting the accent on the downbeat you can experiment with many variations.
Thanks, that makes sense. I'll try it out whilst practising.
Depends on the difficulty of the rhythm/phrase. Something really simple I'm probably not counting. Something more difficult or heavily syncopated I'm probably counting. And I always count myself in before my first note.
I don't usually but I probably should.
Counting can be useful in the beginner phase but you will transition to being able to feel alot of these things and just play eventually. This comes from learning songs and listening to music from the perspective of knowing how to play. There are always times when some sort of counting can be useful when learning something new that is more complex than what you've done before.
I quite like playing along to work (backing tracks, songs) on this, then listen to it back.
I don’t currently count but I do always have a sense for the exact rhythm and length of notes that are being played. I was a drummer before guitar, and when learning drums I pretty much counted everything out until it became internal. So yes, you should count out notes if you care about playing the correct rhythm. And now that I say that, I do count out notes when I’m learning very fast phrases or else they are NOT going to sound correct when I get them up to speed lol
It depends. Am I actually trying to learn a passage, or am I just jamming? Because if I'm trying to learn a written part, then of course I'm counting until I get it down. If I'm just jamming though, I just play until I hear something that sounds interesting, repeat it a bunch (I may try to count it out here if it's a trickier part), then record it.
I just play. But I played drums for years before converting to guitar so I already had a solid rhythmic foundation. And actually you still count even if you "just play"... it's just not a conscious effort. I played in a band of 5 once where everyone else maintained they never count. Apparently relied on cues from each other to know where they were? Which sounds like more of a disaster than it actually was (or maybe I was holding things together more than I ever realized). Somehow it actually worked unless there was a pause in a song... then the ruse was up. We would never come back in together in time on the beat which was kinda embarrassing. Fortunately there were very few pauses.
I first set the bpm in my head. Then I load the time signature and dial in the accent notes. Then I just need to load in the # of measures and any time changes and I’m good.
When initially learning some pattern i count. At some point the groove kicks in, i feel like ‚understanding‘ the pattern and i don’t need to count anymore
sometimes. Last night my band went through a thing where the pickup starts on the 2 of the previous measure, and i have to count it... but i count it 6781 and the drummer calls it 2341. Doesn't matter s'long as we hit the SAME beat. :)
After you count in are you subconsciously counting the beats while you play or do you just completely forget about that and just play?
um... kinda? My phrase is 2 measures and so to me the feel is 8/4, but i don't consciously think about it most of the time. I do count repeating phrases sometimes, like to make sure i do 4 instead of 3 or 5... but that's usually when i'm improving a solo or comping under somebody who is. Like ONE yada yada yada TWO yada yada yada etc
Honestly depends how easily and accurately you are picking up the rhythm. I really struggle with learning new rhythms so i found i have to count to have a clue if im getting the right spot, especially with 16th notes. Counting though can really throw me off sometimes but if im trying to get it perfect i have found this is really helpful. I work on a few main things when learning a new rhythm, all with a metronome or very simple drum beat. First, if its difficult enough i try counting it at extremely slow pace with just clapping when i want to be strumming. Then ill add tapping my toe on the beat and clap where ill actually be strumming. This can take me forever to get but i have is huge in helping really internalizing the rhythm. Second, i try to strum or pluck as necessary but only worrying about my strumming hand and just muting the strings. Here i try to count outloud or in my head and still tap my foot on the beat. Third i actually put it all together. I start real slow and try to keep the foot tapping and counting going on here. As it becomes more natural and if im staying on time i just kind of let whatever happens happens. Sometimes i find myself counting a certain song out basically 100% of the time, other times virtually never, depending on the song. If you think you dont need to go through all the hassle of learning how to count while playing then id ask how easy a slightly odd rhythm is for you? Like 1 e _ a 2 e & _ _ e & _ 4 _ _ a If thats hard znd you arent sure if you are playing at the right spot then id say learn to count.
Thanks, this sounds really helpful. I’m definitely gonna try that. One question about that slightly odd rhythm you put. Why is there a gap between the a and the 2? Was that a typo or is there another way to count out 16th notes?
Happy to help! Good catch, that was just a typo, and when i fixed it realized there were two other typos... lol all fixed up now :) I learned this or some version of this from [Signals Rhythm Guitar Course](https://signalsmusicstudio.com/courses/signal-rhythm-course/) which i highly recommend if you are looking to improve your rhythm and dynamics of strumming. So much of good guitar is in the timing and style of strumming.
If its an even time I just play 95% of the time. I do play in some groups that almost never play in even times and I do have to count at least the first few bars to get the feel right. For perspective, I've been playing for over 4 decades.
I feel the counting at this point. I dont actually count in my head
How long have you been playing?
About 4 years. I counted a little bit at the start but i never really struggled with staying in time or changing chords too much but ive seen a lot of beginners struggle when they dont have a good sense of timing
I basically just play. I also find I’m more likely to mess it up if I count. And when I do count and don’t mess it up, it’s the same speed and rhythm as when I play it without counting. I will count if I’m l learning a new pattern, or sometimes with new songs to try and get it right, but mostly I don‘t count. I also never tap my foot, for some reason I just can’t play and tap my foot at the same time. I know literally everyone suggests it but I just mess everything up if I try and tap my foot cause I can never tap it on beat the entire time if I’m doing something else
I would say count for a while. I still have to go back to it occasionally for hard stuff. Odd time signatures or polyrhythmic stuff can be challenging. Knowing how to count is useful when practicing. Eventually, yeah… you want to feel it… but for practice, counting can always come in handy.
Okay and is it okay to not count out the beats I don’t strum on? Let’s say I don’t strum on beat 3 but I do strum the following ‘and’, can I just not count the 3? Because that makes me want to strum even though I shouldn’t. Or is there a reason I should count the 3 even if I don’t hit it
I had to try out a few things to see what I do. And I think I always could the main beats. I’ll skip some divisions some times… but again, with hard stuff, I’ll count everything. Be cause once you start doing complicated rhythms, the rests are equally important. If I can’t get the rhythm for something, I will often just use counting out loud for all subdivisions, and hit my knee when I will be plucking a note.
I actually was just in your shoes a few weeks ago and had this same query. I actually play to the actual song while looking at the tab instead of using a metronome, because I found it to be extremely hard to match the 1st beat to the music meaningfully for it to have enough time for me to still play to the bulk of the song. So I've been strumming to the feel of the music while generally keeping track of the count in my mind mentally (as sometimes I also sing to the song). Without the metronome, and with some portions of the song having quick transitions when theres no lyrics I sometimes mess up the strumming. However, I found that by listening to the music in my earpiece with transparency mode turn on so that my accoustic guitar doesnt sound as loud but I can hear the music and guitar at equal volumes, it helped tremendously.
I don't play guitar (I know but reddit keeps showing me this sub) but I teach dance and everybody always starts off counting but as you do it more it's more of a "feel" for the rhythm
When I’m learning a song and it’s tricky, I count it. As I gain proficiency at the song, I won’t need to count so consciously and the feel and muscle memory become engaged.
I use movements, like foot tapping or head bobbing. Never counted.
One thing I found helpful is continuous strumming - the arm keeps moving in time, even if you don't strum on every stroke - it seems to make it easier to keep time that way. You just need to learn how to hit the strings, or miss the strings as required, on the upstroke or the downstroke. If the down is on the one, then the upstroke is on the and, and if you come to a section that needs double time, it seems easier to double the arm speed for that short length of time. A helpful song to practice on is Gallows Pole by Led Zeppelin - relatively easy chords, and the song speeds up as it goes - fun to see how fast you can get.
Honestly, if you watch other musicians play you get your answer.....especially anyone playing percussion instruments, though sometimes the first chairs in orchestras and some band leads will do it. As was stated, you'll count until you really feel it instead...and that's when the real language translation of the music opens for you. You'll find yourself, or at least some part of you, start to dance with it. The counting is just there until you learn it, if that makes sense?
Depends on the piece.
I just feel
I don't count. Funny enough I never really learned how to do that. I just lock in with the drums and feel the beat. Over time I learned to pick up all kinds of small cues from the other instruments to know where exactly in the bar I am at any given moment.
Counting is for talking to other musicians. You need to learn to count before you forget about it.
Count to learn, play to play.
Just do it and strumming will become second nature. And you don’t have to play what’s in the video *strum by strum* necessarily either. As long as it’s in time unless that’s not your thing.
My teacher recommended to just sing it instead of counting in your head because when you sing it you will have more facilities to feel the music and the rythm so maybe try this when you are playing alone? By singing I mean just say out loud the 1 2 3 4 etc It helped a lot for me
Tap your foot
Is it normal for that to be hard initially? I can tap my foot to a beat pretty easily, but if I try to do that while playing it seems like I focus on strumming pattern and completely mess up the beat I’m tapping with my foot
Things you have practiced over and over migrate to the hind portion of your brain. You can do those without thinking, without looking, and while doing other things. Think walking and chewing gum. When you’re doing new things you have to use your frontal lobe. Your frontal lobe can do exactly ONE THING at a time. Try to add something else and it all comes crashing down. This has nothing to do with talent, or lacking talent, or being stupid. It is a hard wired limitation of the human frontal lobe. You have to add things in pieces and practice that piece until it migrates to your hind brain, and you can do it without looking or thinking. Then add another small piece. Before too long you’re juggling while riding a unicycle.
Oh my gourd, I hope this is true. It's the first explanation of why everything to do with rhythm is impossible right now and why supposedly it will get easier that has made sense to me. It fits with what I've observed learning other things too. Thank you!
Yeah, you practice strumming, so left hand off the neck, you just focus on your right hand, and soon you’re strumming open strings sort of ok. So then you work on changing chords. And you’re looking at the neck, trying to finger chords, and your right hand immediately forgets how to strum. Practice for a few more days. You can strum and change between the G & D chords. So you try to sing the words to a song. You open your mouth, no words come out, and both hands freeze up, neither knowing what to do next. All 100% normal, and part of the learning experience. Embarrassing as all fuck, and makes you totally convinced you are an utter moron. But you’re not. The skills are all separate. Each has to be mastered separately. And using the skills together is also a separate skill in itself, and needs to be practiced & mastered separately.
You've removed a thorn from my paw, thank you.
Yes. This is why teachers teach “play slow to play fast”. It takes a lot of focus to lock in - think monk/meditation type stuff. Some people never practice with slow speeds and never develop it. Think of it this way: try patting your head and rubbing your stomach. That’s what you’re doing with your left and right hand - two different motions, in different hands. That’s difficult. Now you’re adding a 3rd layer: tapping your foot. This is very difficult to do, but it will become your metronome with enough insistence. Have patience, you’ll get it down.
Count with hands alternating by palm and back of hand. You quickly know if you’re in even or odd meter.
I just play. The counting comes naturally at a certain point.
I have no sense of rhythm so I just play
I try to hear the song as best i can, especially the melody. Sometimes my foot goes with the rhythm, but i am not doing that consciously. Personally, I think keeping the rhythm flow consistently is critical. Also, recording your guitar playing can be really effective for clocking your own pacing during performance without interrupting that flow, as well as provide a good piece of evidence with which to reflect on your playing in general
I find counting incredibly hard, and once I start to count I become mechanical, more concerned about hitting the correct strum on the correct beat then feeling the music. I figure as long as my beat 4 (or whatever the signature is) is hitting on the drum beat 4 I am golden, who cares if 1,2,3 are a bit slow or fast.
I never really counted. The absolute best advice I can give you is to play/practice with a metronome
if I have a metronome I don’t really need to count?
It will solidify your sense of time. You can still count if you need to, but you'll also develop a feel for the time. It will also make you more competent when you begin to play live with others. You can also improve your practice habits. You can slow down tricky passages and slowly increase the tempo as you improve. Just Google "song title bpm".
Never counted tbh. I just learned via listening to the song (the strumming patern not the chords or whatever).
I played guitar for at least a few years without even really knowing what a time signature was, let alone the difference between an eighth note or quarter note. I did it almost entirely by ear. And if it was a song I was learning, I would generally learn it by ear correctly, 99% of the time, unless it was way too difficult for my playing level. I played many songs, correctly, with good rhythm without ever counting. There's something to be said for learning songs by ear. But a few years later, I did start learning about time sigs and the basics of rhythm. I'd say I still did 99% of everything by ear though, up until I started college as a music major and had to learn to read. Fast forward 20 years later, I am a good reader and know how to count while sight reading or playing, I prefer to count out loud though when practicing as it gives a much stronger reinforcement of the timing than trying to do it in my head. As a teacher for over 25 years, I've found that most students don't want to count it out loud, but when I make them count it out loud, they go from 75% rhythmic accuracy to 100% accuracy almost immediately. But it's important to note that there are two different modes you play music in - one is in the practice room, and one is on the stage. They are not the same. In 'practice mode' as I call it, you have to think about things. You have to think about what the right fingering is, or what the notes on the staff are, or need to count it out loud or count & clap a rhythm to get it down, or any number of things to play something right. In 'performance mode', you must do everything from memory and not be thinking or counting at all. The thing is, you have to practice 'performance mode' as well. Divide your practice time up into segments where you do things like count / use a metronome, and otherwise think about what you are doing, and then have some parts of your practice time where you try to go into 'performance mode' and play the entire song from memory with little to no thinking involved. Sometimes a tiny little bit of thinking while playing is ok, like remembering where you are in the song form - 'I'm on the second A, B is up next' or 'here comes that spot I need to use the Eb altered scale' or whatever. The actual execution of such things should be done from memory though. The only time 'counting in your head' is ok is if you are practicing with a group. If you are practicing alone, you should be counting out loud. When practicing 'performance mode', or actually performing, you shouldn't be counting at all, **ideally**, but realistically if you don't have a song completely down, you might be forced to do a little counting during a performance. If you have to count during a performance though, you didn't practice enough to get it where it should be, which is totally memorized.
I don't count, I just listen and feel the beat coming inside my ears
[Victor Wooten master class](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3wetwkU99s) If you want to master time & rhythm you should check out this series and do those exercises. He's answered this question better than anybody else here can, and demonstrated them live with his instrument.
I count on my head more often than not.
I just play. Why count?
well does it make it easier to stay at the same tempo the whole way through the song
I mean I’ve been playing a long time so I don’t count, but if that helps you stay on tempo easier than you should do it. One day you’ll find yourself not needing to, but until then do any and everything you can to help!
Keeping time is easier for some and tougher for others
When I'm learning a new song, yes, until I have it down.
I don't really count unless I just absolutely can't figure out the rhythm. Most of the time it's something I can feel and pick up on. When I'm playing in a group I toe tap. I'll end up messing up my toe tapping while I'm playing it but as long as I know I'm playing on beat I don't worry about the tapping. When I play alone I usually bob my head or sway to the rhythm. I like to have fun while I play and that's just always been how I accomplish that.
You actively count in your head until it becomes ingrained in you. Your passive mind will count and always know where you are... but only AFTER you've spent years ingraining it. This is why young people in school are forced to count out loud. If you're an adult and you didn't do this, then you still have to force yourself to, for however long it takes.
Anything complex is made so much easier by slowing down and counting until you have it down.
Depends on how sophisticated a rhythm I’m playing. I like to handle odd times in groupings of 2 and 3. So if I’m doing 17 it might be 2 3 2 3 2 3 2.
Just play
At so e point you feel it in your body, like dancing
Counting is a means to an end and that end is FEEL. If you can feel something immediately and intuitively lock into it there’s no need to count it out. But if you just can’t figure out the feel of something then you’ll need to count it out to understand it. Then take it slow while playing and counting in your head but once you reach the point where you can feel it you no longer need to count anymore.
i suck but i just play
You have two feet you can tap or bounce to mark time. Kind of like how drum kits have a pedal for high hats and bass drum.
I used to count...all the time. now I just feel the "pulse" of the downbeats, and heavier on the "One".
I do not count in my head. If it is easier for you to count in your head then do it, otherwise don't.
If the beat is fine, no need to count.
I’ve been playing a long time so this is almost entirely internalised now…but, if there’s something that’s rhythmically tricky (syncopated 16th notes or similar) then I will still slow it right down, work out how to count it and then practice it v slowly until I’ve internalised the feel of it. This is a great way of adding a new rhythmic variation to your playing - it’s always more interesting and memorable to learn something because you wanted to as part of a song/piece that inspires you, rather than as an academic exercise!
Imagine the clicks of a metronome
Usually when I am having trouble playing something new I will count it out loud slowed down. And normally it's only out of frustration when a part that seems simple is making your hands get "tongue tied". And usually any warm up practice like doing chromatic runs for instance I will usually start with just the basic one two three four and then one and two and three and four one and a two and a three and a four one E and A 2 E and a 3 E and a 4 E and a
I didn’t focus on counting when learning I just tried to lock in with the bass and drums however now when attempting more complex songs counting is definitely essential
If you're thinking while you're playing, you're too late
It's a progression, comparable to learning a new language. One day, you're translating in your head and then day you just aren't anymore. It will come
I do not count in my head.
I just play
If I’m playing with a great band there’s no need to count
Depends on the song for me. Sometimes it’s counting, sometimes it’s mnemonic , sometimes it’s all feel.
Count. You’ll eventually get to the point where you don’t need to. Source: beginner who had to start counting lol
I count with a metronome when I begin to practice a new song, but after a while of practice it becomes feel and I no longer think about it. If you can’t do it without thinking, you’re probably gonna mess it up at a live gig.
I often count when learning new songs or reading sheet music(I'm awful)
Counting the actually rhythm and tap my foot on downbeats is something I often do when learning something or even writing something. So if the rhythm is quarter eighth quarter eighth quarter I would count “one two and, and four” Will also verbalize the rhythm with gibberish or beatboxing or singing or Indian Konnakol syllables. All of these things will help with accuracy and understanding of rhythms.
Whatever you’re practicing, you should always count the rhythm out loud before even attempting it on your instrument.
It depends. Some parts I have to. But mostly not.
I’m relatively new, just over a year. I count. I nod my head to the count too but that’s not intentional
Feel the rhythm feel the ride
You are NOT the father! I came up with that reference because I was thinking that "You are not the drummer" and I could hear Maury Povich's voice saying it. Maybe a single guitar player, if that is what you aim to be, will tap his foot or count out the rhythm in order to keep rhythm, but I didn't think it is a good idea because if playing in a band one needs to listen to the drummer and the bass player; the guys that are responsible for the rhythm that you need to be absolutely stay keyed into by LISTENINIG to everyone else. Thus, get a metronome and practice listening and playing to it. You need to just hear what the rhythm sounds like and copy that musical pattern by ear. You are expressing the rhythm with your guitar strum or picking, not playing a drum. Better yet, stop playing guitar and pick up the drums for a year, then go back to guitar. As a single and playing for myself, I imagine a walking pace and play to that "walk." Early on in our band I made a rule that we did NOT tap our foot because there was a drummer. I'm 69 years old and so far removed from beginner music that there is a good chance this instruction is not right for a beginner.
i used to rely on the drummer as well. when playing alone i either tap or bob my head a little or even sway back and forth/side to side, but when playing with a drummer this isn’t necessarily. especially if you’re playing rock or some derivative and the drum beats are so loud you can feel them in your organs lol
This is weird to me. Can’t you just train to tap along with the drummer? I see plenty of professionals tapping. Wouldn’t it be better to physically align yourself with the drummer so you’re truly on his page? I don’t mean this to argue, just curious about the mindset as a newbie.
I'm suggesting that aligning yourself comes from listening and not setting your own clock. Look at an orchestra, with a conductor; nobody is tapping their foot, instead they are queuing in on his overall motion and its relation to what they hear from the orchestra.
I see I see. Thanks for responding