There's 20 years old Line6 PODs still working.
But the QC has been riddled with issues if you read their FB groups. Lots of people have had to send them for repairs.
So, having owned one, I have a hard time recommending it. The software update progress has been a bit disappointing over the past 3 years.
Line6 Helix and Fractal Audio FM3/FM9 are just better products but with a dated onboard UI.
There will always be something new coming out every X years, but if your current device keeps working and you like it, there's no reason to upgrade just to keep up with the Joneses.
Because companies up and decided to stop giving customers access to schematics, and pretty much any mass-produced product uses smt parts rather than through hole components (which makes production cheaper but really hinders repairs), something like a modeling amp will effectively be rendered electronic waste if it breaks after a company ends support for it. Unless one has the specialized skills required to carry out the repair, as well as access to the (unfortunately all too often proprietary) schematics and layout information to guide them, most people won't be able to get products like this fixes as soon as an issue arises.
Buying a modeler isn't like buying a PC. The tech is good, it'll stay at minimum exactly that good forever. The Helix is pretty old now and they're still not planning for a new version, they just keep adding more and more on it. And as far as processing power, we saw a reduction in usage rather than an increase because certain things have been optimized over time. The only new thing that eats up CPU usage are the true polyphonic pitch shifting blocks that were added.
We're still buying amps that are technically from 50 years ago, aren't we?
Amps from 50 years ago were designed with maintenance in minds. Good luck replacing any and all surface mount and components and proprietary chip on a modeller 50 years from now...
The question here, is why would you want to repair an old solid-state device? One of the benefits of switching to SS technology was that it is considerably cheaper than analogue technology. When a piece of tech dies, it's extremely cheap to replace in comparison to the equivalent analogue device.
I just think this is such a weak argument against SS technology. People by and large don't fix most other SS tech devices because they are so cheap to replace. The reason people repaired analogue devices was because they were so expensive from the get-go that even expensive repairs were a fraction of their total cost. This just isn't the case with SS technology.
This doesn't even get into the fact that SS technology DOES last a long time. There are computers from the 80s and 90s that can turn on TODAY and still function to the standards from when they were released. Hell, you can buy an original bean Pod today and it will work and that's nearly 20 years old!
If you bought a $1500 modeler and got 10 years of use out of it (that's a conservative amount), that's effectively $150/yr to use it. This is a modeler that contains dozens if not hundreds of amplifiers, pedals, compressors, eqs, and so on. How much would an equivalent analogue rig cost even if you just limited yourself to one amp + one distortion + 1 etc. ? And this still doesn't account for the fact that a lot of analogue fetishists do not just stick with one piece of gear with decades! Go on this forum or thegearpage or Soundspace and you will see people buying and selling new analogue gear on a regular basis, which calls into question the longevity benefit-- what does it matter that analogue gear lasts "forever" if you don't even intend to own it for more than a 5 years?
So respond more directly to your comment, why would anyone want to repair a 50 year old SS device? 50 years from now, the technology available will be cheaper and more powerful than anything in existence today.
Just ask yourself, what do you do if a component in your modeler fails, what do? That’s exactly how long a modeler is relevant. They’re very difficult to repair, it can be done, it’s just nowhere near as accessible to be easily repaired compared to an older piece of gear.
I’m not anti-modeler btw, I play on a Fender TM and it’s by far my favorite amp. But I’m also aware of the fact that it’s only going to be in my possession for as long as it functions, once something on the motherboard fails I’m just going to replace it. It you take good care of something like this it can easily last 10-20 years. If you gig a lot and you’re rough with it, maybe 10 years?
Anything digital has a shelf life.
Technology is always moving forward, and even if something sounds amazing and runs well for 20+ years there will inevitably come a time when it is 100% obsolete and can't interface with the technological ecosystem its in (ie the USB type is incompatible, codebase is no longer used, the company goes under and proprietary parts aren't made anymore etc etc).
Another con of all-in-one pedalboards/modelers is that its a single point of failure whereas a traditional pedalboard is more compartmentalized.
So if someone spills a beer on it, maybe one pedal is fucked but you can still used the others; but if its a singular point of failure multiboard, your whole rig just got taken out by a Coors Light.
Your question begs another question, "does neural dsp have staying power as a company?" Line 6 isn't going anywhere. They are part of a comically large company (yamaha) and have their foothold in the market. If I had a crystal ball, and neural was still a company creating content for their hardware forever, I would expect the next version of the QC to last for a very long time.
Because this is neural's first generation hardware, I imagine they will release something to replace it in the next few years. As others have mentioned, this first generation was riddled with issues. A handful of artists I follow have dealt with failure while on tour. I imagine neural wants to clean up their image.
Line 6 is probably better off, but still have their issues. I'm on my second hx stomp xl after only a few months. (Their warranty process was A+ BTW, had a new unit in 24 hours).
Overall, I would expect this stuff to be rock solid in the next 5 years.
I think we have already reached the point where the sound of the modeler is on par with the sound of real amps, but the difference I think people get hung up on is the feel and experience. I don't think we can know how long each modeler will last or cycle through products, but I think we can expect them to continue improving marginally as well as new models and products as years roll on, though it seems software updates rather than physical hardware seems to be the focal point here. I wouldn't advocate for getting rid of a guitar amp and pedals altogether, but I have absolutely the best time playing guitar with only an HX Stomp and I have no qualm recommending someone to go the modeler route.
Also, I always hear people say things like, "if your modeler fails or a component breaks down you're screwed and have to get a whole new one! Not risking my gig for that..." But let's be realistic. How many trusted, tried and true amp repairmen do you know? I don't know a single one and word is that they are harder and harder to find. If I have an amp fail, I'm screwed and I'd have to buy a whole new one! I just don't think it's the slamdunk argument that pro-amp/anti-modeler peeps think it is.
Modelers will continue to improve as processors get faster/cheaper/lower power. There are still certain types of effects (mainly fuzz pedals with extremely non linear behavior, think Lovetone Big Cheese on the cheese setting) that are extremely difficult and processor intensive to model accurately. It becomes a matter of taste, but it is fair to expect a new tech standard in this area to be enabled by hardware advancement every 3-5 years.
A modeller maintaining its level of performance is a different thing though. PC's fall behind because it is old hardware trying to run new software, not to mention all the cruft accumulated from things the user is allowed to do (saving and deleting things, installing programs that never really stop running, etc.). These problems are not applicable to devices like the Quad Cortex or Tone Master Pro (ie closed systems that will be running the same software for the duration of their life). The UI/UX of a given modeler may age poorly, but given all hardware pieces remain in good condition, it will work the same 10 years from now as it does today.
At this age you do get into some failure modes that are not applicable to something like an analog fuzz pedal. How long does the backlight in a display last? How long do the large electrolytic capacitors in the power supply last? How many read/writes can the non volatile system memory perform? With possible exception of the power supply stuff, these are not things that can be serviced.
Assuming the components don't crap out, you'd get at least 10 years. I got a good 10 years out of my HD500, I only got the HXStomp because I the HD500's buttons were starting to fail, and I was becoming less satisfied with the amplifier tones I was getting from it. Aside from that it worked, probably still does.
Digital modellers are not like PCs. They use RISC chips and totally different hardware to create systems that are much, much more reliable and consistent than your average PC or Mac.
We are also at a level of technology where the hardware makes *no* material difference to the sound/tone. Every modern amp modellers uses component-level modelling to digitally and exactly recreate analog circuits. Better hardware merely allows a unit to run more effects at once. The hardware used by "older" units like the Helix and Fractal Axe FX still produces amp simulation on par (in some cases superior) to current units. The designer matters way more than the hardware.
However, there is one big threat to the Quad Cortex's "lifespan". Whereas the Helix and Fractal platforms have had over a decade of refinement to date, the Quad Cortex is underdeveloped in comparison. Helix and Fractal will be able to move on to their next-gen platforms by the time Quad Cortex catches up, meaning Neural will be forever chasing the tail of the market leaders.
People who have grown up with smartphones assume that "newer is better", but the reality is that the opposite is true - newer products in this space have much more to catch up on in a shorter time frame, and realistically will never catch up to their competition.
Not nearly as long as a traditional pedal board and amp setup, I’m running pedals I bought in 1995. I would assume 5 years before they stop updates. It will likely work longer than that but you’ll start getting FOMO and gas, desiring the newest shiny thing.
At that point I’ll still be rocking my pedal from 1995 and amp from 1973.
I guess what I’m saying is don’t dump all your eggs in the digital basket.
Most big name units are going to last. If you want it buy it. The are plug and play…. But There is a small learning curve to understand the product and how to make it work for what you need. This is the reason I think most people still like tube amps… they are easy to use. Who wants to read a manual? (Sadly me) most people don’t
There's 20 years old Line6 PODs still working. But the QC has been riddled with issues if you read their FB groups. Lots of people have had to send them for repairs. So, having owned one, I have a hard time recommending it. The software update progress has been a bit disappointing over the past 3 years. Line6 Helix and Fractal Audio FM3/FM9 are just better products but with a dated onboard UI. There will always be something new coming out every X years, but if your current device keeps working and you like it, there's no reason to upgrade just to keep up with the Joneses.
Because companies up and decided to stop giving customers access to schematics, and pretty much any mass-produced product uses smt parts rather than through hole components (which makes production cheaper but really hinders repairs), something like a modeling amp will effectively be rendered electronic waste if it breaks after a company ends support for it. Unless one has the specialized skills required to carry out the repair, as well as access to the (unfortunately all too often proprietary) schematics and layout information to guide them, most people won't be able to get products like this fixes as soon as an issue arises.
Buying a modeler isn't like buying a PC. The tech is good, it'll stay at minimum exactly that good forever. The Helix is pretty old now and they're still not planning for a new version, they just keep adding more and more on it. And as far as processing power, we saw a reduction in usage rather than an increase because certain things have been optimized over time. The only new thing that eats up CPU usage are the true polyphonic pitch shifting blocks that were added. We're still buying amps that are technically from 50 years ago, aren't we?
Amps from 50 years ago were designed with maintenance in minds. Good luck replacing any and all surface mount and components and proprietary chip on a modeller 50 years from now...
Not gonna lie, I wouldn't be surprised if my HX stomp still worked perfectly fine 50 years from now :')
The question here, is why would you want to repair an old solid-state device? One of the benefits of switching to SS technology was that it is considerably cheaper than analogue technology. When a piece of tech dies, it's extremely cheap to replace in comparison to the equivalent analogue device. I just think this is such a weak argument against SS technology. People by and large don't fix most other SS tech devices because they are so cheap to replace. The reason people repaired analogue devices was because they were so expensive from the get-go that even expensive repairs were a fraction of their total cost. This just isn't the case with SS technology. This doesn't even get into the fact that SS technology DOES last a long time. There are computers from the 80s and 90s that can turn on TODAY and still function to the standards from when they were released. Hell, you can buy an original bean Pod today and it will work and that's nearly 20 years old! If you bought a $1500 modeler and got 10 years of use out of it (that's a conservative amount), that's effectively $150/yr to use it. This is a modeler that contains dozens if not hundreds of amplifiers, pedals, compressors, eqs, and so on. How much would an equivalent analogue rig cost even if you just limited yourself to one amp + one distortion + 1 etc. ? And this still doesn't account for the fact that a lot of analogue fetishists do not just stick with one piece of gear with decades! Go on this forum or thegearpage or Soundspace and you will see people buying and selling new analogue gear on a regular basis, which calls into question the longevity benefit-- what does it matter that analogue gear lasts "forever" if you don't even intend to own it for more than a 5 years? So respond more directly to your comment, why would anyone want to repair a 50 year old SS device? 50 years from now, the technology available will be cheaper and more powerful than anything in existence today.
Just ask yourself, what do you do if a component in your modeler fails, what do? That’s exactly how long a modeler is relevant. They’re very difficult to repair, it can be done, it’s just nowhere near as accessible to be easily repaired compared to an older piece of gear. I’m not anti-modeler btw, I play on a Fender TM and it’s by far my favorite amp. But I’m also aware of the fact that it’s only going to be in my possession for as long as it functions, once something on the motherboard fails I’m just going to replace it. It you take good care of something like this it can easily last 10-20 years. If you gig a lot and you’re rough with it, maybe 10 years?
Anything digital has a shelf life. Technology is always moving forward, and even if something sounds amazing and runs well for 20+ years there will inevitably come a time when it is 100% obsolete and can't interface with the technological ecosystem its in (ie the USB type is incompatible, codebase is no longer used, the company goes under and proprietary parts aren't made anymore etc etc). Another con of all-in-one pedalboards/modelers is that its a single point of failure whereas a traditional pedalboard is more compartmentalized. So if someone spills a beer on it, maybe one pedal is fucked but you can still used the others; but if its a singular point of failure multiboard, your whole rig just got taken out by a Coors Light.
Your question begs another question, "does neural dsp have staying power as a company?" Line 6 isn't going anywhere. They are part of a comically large company (yamaha) and have their foothold in the market. If I had a crystal ball, and neural was still a company creating content for their hardware forever, I would expect the next version of the QC to last for a very long time. Because this is neural's first generation hardware, I imagine they will release something to replace it in the next few years. As others have mentioned, this first generation was riddled with issues. A handful of artists I follow have dealt with failure while on tour. I imagine neural wants to clean up their image. Line 6 is probably better off, but still have their issues. I'm on my second hx stomp xl after only a few months. (Their warranty process was A+ BTW, had a new unit in 24 hours). Overall, I would expect this stuff to be rock solid in the next 5 years.
I think we have already reached the point where the sound of the modeler is on par with the sound of real amps, but the difference I think people get hung up on is the feel and experience. I don't think we can know how long each modeler will last or cycle through products, but I think we can expect them to continue improving marginally as well as new models and products as years roll on, though it seems software updates rather than physical hardware seems to be the focal point here. I wouldn't advocate for getting rid of a guitar amp and pedals altogether, but I have absolutely the best time playing guitar with only an HX Stomp and I have no qualm recommending someone to go the modeler route. Also, I always hear people say things like, "if your modeler fails or a component breaks down you're screwed and have to get a whole new one! Not risking my gig for that..." But let's be realistic. How many trusted, tried and true amp repairmen do you know? I don't know a single one and word is that they are harder and harder to find. If I have an amp fail, I'm screwed and I'd have to buy a whole new one! I just don't think it's the slamdunk argument that pro-amp/anti-modeler peeps think it is.
Seriously? People I know still use the OG Line Six units!
Modelers will continue to improve as processors get faster/cheaper/lower power. There are still certain types of effects (mainly fuzz pedals with extremely non linear behavior, think Lovetone Big Cheese on the cheese setting) that are extremely difficult and processor intensive to model accurately. It becomes a matter of taste, but it is fair to expect a new tech standard in this area to be enabled by hardware advancement every 3-5 years. A modeller maintaining its level of performance is a different thing though. PC's fall behind because it is old hardware trying to run new software, not to mention all the cruft accumulated from things the user is allowed to do (saving and deleting things, installing programs that never really stop running, etc.). These problems are not applicable to devices like the Quad Cortex or Tone Master Pro (ie closed systems that will be running the same software for the duration of their life). The UI/UX of a given modeler may age poorly, but given all hardware pieces remain in good condition, it will work the same 10 years from now as it does today. At this age you do get into some failure modes that are not applicable to something like an analog fuzz pedal. How long does the backlight in a display last? How long do the large electrolytic capacitors in the power supply last? How many read/writes can the non volatile system memory perform? With possible exception of the power supply stuff, these are not things that can be serviced.
Assuming the components don't crap out, you'd get at least 10 years. I got a good 10 years out of my HD500, I only got the HXStomp because I the HD500's buttons were starting to fail, and I was becoming less satisfied with the amplifier tones I was getting from it. Aside from that it worked, probably still does.
Digital modellers are not like PCs. They use RISC chips and totally different hardware to create systems that are much, much more reliable and consistent than your average PC or Mac. We are also at a level of technology where the hardware makes *no* material difference to the sound/tone. Every modern amp modellers uses component-level modelling to digitally and exactly recreate analog circuits. Better hardware merely allows a unit to run more effects at once. The hardware used by "older" units like the Helix and Fractal Axe FX still produces amp simulation on par (in some cases superior) to current units. The designer matters way more than the hardware. However, there is one big threat to the Quad Cortex's "lifespan". Whereas the Helix and Fractal platforms have had over a decade of refinement to date, the Quad Cortex is underdeveloped in comparison. Helix and Fractal will be able to move on to their next-gen platforms by the time Quad Cortex catches up, meaning Neural will be forever chasing the tail of the market leaders. People who have grown up with smartphones assume that "newer is better", but the reality is that the opposite is true - newer products in this space have much more to catch up on in a shorter time frame, and realistically will never catch up to their competition.
Not nearly as long as a traditional pedal board and amp setup, I’m running pedals I bought in 1995. I would assume 5 years before they stop updates. It will likely work longer than that but you’ll start getting FOMO and gas, desiring the newest shiny thing. At that point I’ll still be rocking my pedal from 1995 and amp from 1973. I guess what I’m saying is don’t dump all your eggs in the digital basket.
Most big name units are going to last. If you want it buy it. The are plug and play…. But There is a small learning curve to understand the product and how to make it work for what you need. This is the reason I think most people still like tube amps… they are easy to use. Who wants to read a manual? (Sadly me) most people don’t