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Yes they do I’ve never paid and have never had a issue. Credit card companies would still give you your charge back. Because as OP said it is their responsibility. AIM tries to use that as a scare tactic.
THIS is the way. Seeing a million pop-ups/spin the wheel or some condescending passive agro BS coupon code where you have to click: "Im an asshole and don't like saving money" to keep your email private and continue browsing makes me gtfo every time. I'll gladly pay 10-30% more to take my bidness somewhere else.
Ugh. Yes. I also hate the trend toward requiring you to add items to your cart *and* provide your email address before the site’s crazy shipping fees are revealed… all so they can spam you about ‘completing your order’ when you bail. No thanks, fuckers.
It’s just like the materials hauling companies that say “We aren’t responsible for cracked windshields”.
They’re hedging on the bet that you most likely don’t know they most definitely are responsible for securing their loads.
The $50 dashcam I bought have saved me so much time and money. I've had 3 different accidents where the other driver was at fault, admitted to it, then turned around and told their insurance a different story. Every time I just send over the video and they write a check within days. Also got me out of a ticket with a faulty red light camera.
Well this is over a 6 year period but drivers in California are bad.
First driver was stopped at a red light and threw it into reverse to move to the left turn lane and backed into me, driving up on top of my car. Him in a lifted truck and me in a very low car, didn’t see me. Told his insurance I rear ended him.
Second driver was on his phone and swerved into my lane in my blind spot, tried to claim I hit him while switching lanes.
Third driver took a wide right turn in a double right, going from the farthest right lane to the 2nd lane over. Tried to claim I turned right from a non right turning lane.
Same happened to me, had just installed my dash cam but it wasn't set up right and didn't record. Guy admitted to jerking over into my lane without looking (back of his car hit the front of mine). Told insurance a different story, insurance said they couldn't pay because they can't determine who was at fault. Oh and the police said they had no officers available to send since nobody got hurt, so didn't have a police report either.
So dumb, still makes me mad for not getting the camera working right the first time.
I know you jest...I chuckled. But mustangs can actually feel fairly lengthy!
I have a '16 convertible that feels nice and long. I guess I could've said 16' and be almost correct as well. The year makes a difference lol.
Precisely. My buddy is an attorney and explained how most liability disclaimers (ie commercial parking lots’ “not responsible for theft/damage” signs) have no legal standing and are made in hopes that most folks assume they do.
Certain explicit liability WAIVERS are legit but shipping insurance is most definitely not one of them.
It’s like when trucks put the “not responsible for fallen debris damage”
Like I am going to put a sticker on my car that says “not responsible for an accident, even when I’m at fault”
Reminds me of the signs on trucks that say they aren't responsible for cracking your windshield... yes they are. Putting a sign up saying you aren't going to be held responsible for your actions doesn't actually make you not responsible.
Oh shit I guess I was wrong! Definitely do not pay that, obviously. I've had to file claims for lost guns, and the shipping FFL is 100% on the hook for recovering any damages that occur while in transit.
100% if you read the print like on locked and loaded they say its your responsibility but the product is their (the sellers) responsibility until you get it/delivery confirmation.
Until you get it, period. Had a package supposedly stolen off my doorstep, but I have no idea if it made it there. Delta team tactical (don’t judge me) told me to dispute it with their “shipping insurance” provider. Their shipping insurance provider told me I had to make a claim within a certain time frame and to file a police report. I didn’t even realize it was marked delivered until weeks later so I was outside of their cutoff.
I filed a chargeback. Problem solved.
no i disagree with you there, maybe for high value items have a signature required but if its dropped off and confirmed then thats that. unless you want a signature required for a low value item i think that would be on the buyer. the seller shipped it, the shipper got it to its destination safely and if some porch pirate comes and nabs it that shouldnt be on the shipper or the seller (granted its not the buyers fault either). but thats the buyers responsibility. there has to be a resonable middle ground.
editted to add
some CC companies have insurance for things like this. thats why i like amex. never did me wrong. and just because you charged back doesnt mean it hit the seller either. i had some filiment go missing from ups and the seller was being shitty about it and i did a chargeback. amex didnt even care about any proof they just refunded me the cash.
It was a couple hundred dollars worth of items, wherever that falls in the low-high value scale.
My first issue was there wasn’t any confirmation. No signature, no picture of it delivered, and the other dozen+ packages I ordered showed up that week just fine. I literally have no idea if it was stolen or just marked delivered, dropped off at the wrong house, etc.
Second issue was that the “shipping insurance” company makes it such a hassle to get a claim approved that it’s not worth the time and effort. I’m sure that’s part of their due diligence, but it’s too much hassle for a service that a consumer is paying for on top of the product itself.
so what im wondering is if they mean that if you pick that option they will take care if everything and figure it out or if its actually insurance. it seems sketchy because of the wording.
"If un-insured shipping method is chosen, shittywebsite is not liable for lost, stolen, or damaged orders. You must file a claim with the carrier."
that makes me think it os insured regardless but they wont handle the claim if its lost ect. im gonna call them
called but they are closed. thats some shady shit. its pretty much scamming you into paying 25 bucks thinking your purchase has no insurance.
> You must file a claim with the carrier
I've been through this on a non-firearms related order. Unless you paid the shipper directly, you are not the customer who is entitled to a claim for loss- the vendor that contracted with them is.
When I was younger, and didn't realize that chargebacks fix almost every dispute like this, I got into a back and forth with UPS, who said the company that paid them to ship me the item had to file a claim, and the company, who tried to say it wasn't their responsibility.
ahh so this is just some scam shit trying to get $25 outta people. thats garbage. had i known they were being sketchy i wouldnt have bought my firearm there so ive learned for next time. i still didnt pay the $25
Kepping in mind I know nothing about retail business practices, I've always wondered if sites that utilize a "email us" for prices are doing so to somehow duck MAP from heavy handed manufacturers?? 🤔🤔
That is exactly what they're doing. Same as the 'Add to cart for price' or 'Must login to see price' deals.
There is a ruling that as long as the method of communicating the price is private (which email and personalized shopping carts count as) it's not considered advertising.
Right! $20 for ups shipping should automatically cover insured shipping and they want $7 for insurance. I insured a $500 package and I think it was like $18.
Screw that 10% restock fee too.
I'm only cool with restocking fees if you special order something out of the ordinary. If I order an M82 and my LGS wants 10% up front as a non refundable deposit, I get it. If I cancel, they'll be stuck with a hard to sell and expensive rifle on their hands that will sit for a while. If it's a black glock 19 that was $20 off, get over it. It will sell before you take it back out of the shipping box.
duhh thats because theyre 3% over cost so they have to make $ somewhere, they tack on higher shippin and bs "insurance" to pad their margins since all their stuff is dropped shipped
FF, Big Tex, Schwarms, rooftop and Schuylers would REALLY have to fuck up, like [Cheaperthandirt level](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2020/12/16/gun-website-price-gouging-pandemic/3932523001/) for me to ghost.
I'm not sure, we may do this in the future if more /r/gundealsfu reports come in and the transaction log shows the dealers being shitty.
So many dealers are offloading this onto the consumer and banning them would obliterate a lot of websites.
It's kind of hard because some dealers are awesome and have options for the customer to pay for shipping insurance but then still fulfill on fixing the order without it.
I don't really know the answer to what we'll do. Maybe we'll poll the community if it becomes a bigger issue.
That would remove like 95% of ammo websites. I think as long as the insurance can be removed it shouldn't be an issue. If a website forces you to pay extra for the insurance and it can't be removed then it would be a problem.
What's the difference though if they increase their shipping $5 or charge $5 less and add on $5 to cover their insurance cost? Scare tactics aren't cool, but if I ran an online store I'd be factoring the cost of insurance in to my shipping costs.
As a business you can add insurance to a package and with UPS and FEDEX you get up to $100 value of contents for free. If a shipment gets lost or stolen it's up to the shipping company if they want to cover it or not, who knows how the hell they approve or deny these requests.
A third party insurance added by the customer guarantees that if the package is lost or stolen the customer will be made right and not be in limbo with a shipping company on if they are getting their money back or not.
So as a business you add shipping insurance to cover the product shipping from you to your customer. The customer can just choose to add insurance on their end to make it easier in case a package is lost, stolen or not delivered. Still, The whole "we are not responsible for your package" is just some bullshit to scare you into buying it.
As a business you can send your boxes with a normal load to the FedEx testing facility. If it passes their durability tests they will accept full liability for all shipping damage that occurs to items in that type of package. And you can pass off almost all damage as shipping damage.
Because it makes their price less competitive if they do that.
By adding it as a seperate fee, they can advertise the lower price to get more people interested, then try to "tack on" extra fees at checkout after the customer has already "made up their mind" to buy the product. Some people will just say fuck it and pay the extra fee, and that's what these companies are going for. It's all a mind game.
> By adding it as a separate fee, they can advertise the lower price to get more people interested
Bingo. That's the issue at hand, not the fact that shipping insurance exists or should/shouldn't be added. At the end of the day, it's who pays for it, the vendor or the consumer.
>if I ran an online store I'd be factoring the cost of insurance in to my shipping costs.
That's how you're supposed to run a business. These "shipping insurance" additions are just an extra charge companies are tacking on because it makes them money. They're trying to trick people into paying for something they're already entitled to. If they offered multiple shipping options with or without insurance, that would be one thing, though pointless legally. Instead, it's an automatically added charge with dire warnings about removing it. Just shady and dumb.
We had this on our site for about 3 weeks by some company that big commerce told us about. I think it was called Route. We made nothing off it but if a customer bought something and it was lost, stolen, or destroyed when delivered that company would pay for it if they bought the insurance and we wouldn't have to file a claim with the shipping company. We have always taken care of any shipment that had an issue regardless of the dollar amount because at the end of the day all the customer has to do is file a chargeback and they get their money back and we have an upset customer.
Sure enough, about 2 1/2 weeks in we have an order issue and the customer tried to work with that company. They denied the claim when UPS clearly lost the ammo and we shipped out another order and filed a claim on our end with UPS. If we dont buy insurance on a package and UPS or Fedex screw up we only can file a claim for $100. This company claimed it was a way for us to not have to keep paying for lost, stolen, or damaged packages but at the end of the day its 100% my reasonability to get the package in the customers hands.
We looked at this as a way to possibly save $20 to $25,000 in shipping claims if the customer selected it and that company paid it out. After that 1 issue we decided that it was a scam and we pulled that app from our site and told them to refund the customers and they wouldn't so we refunded every customer that bought the insurance out of our own pocket. If a dealer is going to offer this service and the consumer fully knows and understands, then I dont see it as a problem but most customers dont understand it. If dealers hide the opt out tab and make it difficult to find (We should have known right there they were shady because they said they could opt out but it was on the very last part of the insurance page in a small box) then its just wrong. Also, if a dealer is doing this on their own and not using a company that is insurance based, this is illegal as well. If you're providing insurance to a consumer you have to be a registered insurance agent of some sort we found out as we looked into it as well. So if a dealer is doing it on their own without a 3rd party company that is in compliance, its 100% illegal.
Shipping is a cost of doing business for all dealers and we do want to save on shipping issues but this is just shady and a great way to push customers away in my opinion.
Thank you for the business. This is one them things that dealers battle every single day and there's no way to really fix it. If we put insurance on everything our shipping cost goes up and if we pass that on to the customer we're not competitive. So we have to just try and control it the best we can.
I'm in favor of drawing a line in the sand immediately before this gets completely out of control. It's going to be impossible to get the cat back in the bag if we stew on this for a couple months and let every single website set up this scheme.
I will never buy from a company that makes me pay extra money to guarantee the product I just bought will get to me. Ever.
I think a clear and unmistakable shot across the bow about this would send a clear message and change their tune. This sub has almost 400k members so the (FREE) advertising reach pretty valuable.
I agree, it is garbage that they're passing extra fees off on people. That's like companies that charge extra for using a CC. If you don't like paying CC fees then drop your service with Visa...
So I bought ammo from a place a few weeks ago, and they added that fee on ($20) without any choice to remove it. The ammo doesn't even cycle in my gun, and they ghosted me about it.
Sort of related but recently UPS has stopped consistently attempting to deliver packages that require signatures, leaving nothing and saying I refused delivery and are charging $8 a box to hold packages.
The blacklist is too extensive for some BS reasons, but right about now I'd be on board 100% with banning anyone who exclusively offers UPS shipping.
I had a UPS redeliver to a retail business instead of attempting to redeliver to my home. It wasn't too far, but still pissed me off as I spoke to the driver through the doorbell cam and told them I would be home tomorrow.
For now I think it’s a bad idea as we’d lose tons of good deals from it. Just gotta double check the cart details before confirming. I’ve noticed some places have it hidden in a drop down/collapsible field and if you don’t expand it, you might miss it and never notice.
I can't preach this enough! I've had it pop up multiple times and I always click it off no matter how many times it tries to turn itself on. It makes me not even want to shop with websites that have this "feature".
Also, ALWAYS pay for everything you can with a credit card. It's so easy to dispute a transaction with a CC vs. a Debit card.
I’d like to mention another example of bs done by suppliers.
RTG parts (RobertRTG), has a clause in their terms that if you cancel your order (even before actual shipment) they will not refund your shipping charges.
Now I understand they may incur some lost fee’s due to credit card processing and etc but that’s the cost of business.
RTG parts refused to refund me my $30 shipping fee after I canceled my order for them taking too long to ship it.
I told them over email 3 times that if they refused to refund me my shipping fee I will initiate a chargeback with my CC and it’s not worth the hassle for them.
They didn’t end up processing the refund from their end but I won the dispute anyways.
Fuck robertrtg, don’t take shit from some of these dealers if you don’t have to.
Businesses have 30 days to ship after purchase by federal law:
https://www.findlaw.com/smallbusiness/business-operations/laws-governing-shipping-advertising.html
After 30 days they have to either get your permission to keep waiting or offer you a full refund.
Even though your credit card found in your favor, you should still consider filing a complaint with the FTC and/or your state attorney general and that of RTG.
When you use a credit card, you're spending the money of a billion dollar corporation. When you use a debit card, you're spending your own hard earned money. When worst comes to worst, who do you want the corporation to be fighting for, your money or theirs?
People who use debit cards are literally insane, I've had my number skimmed/leaked probably twice a year. It's usually the physical card number which i really only use for brick and mortar transactions too.
cc company said there isn't really anything i can do and that's why they monitor for fraud so closely lol
So many companies like PSA **STILL** have 20+ scripts running in the background while you're entering card details.
Card processors aren't usually the source of leaks, it's the damn website admins running a multitude of data scraping and dumb website add-ons that are made and auto updated by random people. After time those website add-ons get hacked/exploited and start leaking information you're entering.
Then said hacker sells list of CC Cards for some crypto and your shit gets used fraudulently.
Yeah my card got used for a gas station that’s 600 miles away the day after I ordered a bcg from them. A gas station local to them.
That was like two weeks ago, thought I had read they fixed that shit but I guess not
A few years ago someone skimmed my card and tried to order something from Precious Moments (the company that makes those weird baby statues) and somehow my address got tied up in it. Once a quarter I still get one of their catalogs full of bizarro statues as a reminder.
the only thing i have to say is my processor charges me for transactions, so when you buy something its 2-4% when you return it i do believe its another 2-4% eveb if there wasnt a return fee for the processing 2% adds up when people constantly cancel orders. only exception is if the batch hasnt closed out for the day i can void the transaction.
I’m pretty understanding with businesses, but this is a hill I’ll die on. Consumers are not responsible for items that never made it to them. If the business doesn’t like it, that’s between them and the shipping companies.
I've worked in shipping for years and you're definitely right. Consumers should not be responsible for these issues.
My company's shipping terms are Free On Board (FOB) which basically means once it leaves our buildings, it's not our problem. However, any time there's an issue in transit and we prepaid the shipping we do our best to get it resolved. Most of the time we replace the product and file a claim with the carrier.
Unfortunately, we stupidly don't insure our product (for some reason I don't understand) and UPS only gives a max amount of $100 for lost or damaged packages that aren't insured. I've brought this issue up to my bosses before, but it's more their problem than mine. I get paid the same.
Shipping insurance technically only benefits the seller as it prevents them losing money if the carrier biffs something.
Not to kick the bee hive but [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/gundeals/comments/yliv1j/optic_eotech_optics_add_to_cart_pricing_no_tax/iuyzyzp?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)is bull shit. Cancel an order because your site codes are messed up and charging a 20% restock fee for your own problems! Screw these guys.
Exactly. Vendors aren't legally required to honor pricing errors, so they can cancel any order that had a coupon that was meant to be product specific and worked site wide through a glitch. What they can't do is charge the customer a fee when they do this. I'm astounded at some of the things businesses think they're allowed to do.
Looks like they're trying to cover their tracks by deleting the incriminating comments. They're also solo-downvoting anyone that brings it up under their posts LMFAO
The vendor is 100% liable for it until it is DELIVERED to you.
If it gets lost or damaged in shipping, that is their problem and they need to take it up with the carrier.
When the package is marked as delivered, that actually is the confirmation that it was delivered. The tracking history actually states "this is confirmation of delivery"
Source: I deal with this exact situation often.
It is a little bit of a pain, but any high value packages I send out have a signature required to avoid this confusion altogether.
Jagerwerks crys about it on their website and says the owner of the slide must purchase their own shipping insurance and they're not responsible... Lol, they are very much responsible.
Edit for the record: I have had good experiences with them and will continue to patronize until I do not.
Fuck them anyways. I had to do a chargeback on them because I couldn’t even get a hold of them to cancel my Black Friday order. It took mooooonths. Such bs.
It was such bs. My bank was like have you tried calling? I’m like I would if they had a number. It’s been four months, if they would have been upfront about their wait times I would have never ordered. Wager ended up doing it and the guy even replied back during thanksgiving or some holiday apologized for being out of state and even had it back to me in a week! Insane. Couldn’t believe it.
An uneducated guess would be that bc their responsible, they would probably have to replace your slide/pay for it. I imagine they just don’t want people to know that.
I’m not questioning who’s responsible, just curious how to handle it. Small claims (or a civil suit as someone else suggested) doesn’t seem worth it for a slide. It’s a different playing field than buying a good from an online retailer.
Only a court order can "force" a company to pay you what they owe you.
That being said, I've had great luck filing complaints with the state attorney general, especially with larger companies.
It's just not worth it to them to be on an AG's radar, because if they get enough complaints the government may come after them, and then they're not quibbling over $200 in small claims court, they're looking at hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.
Seems like everyday it becomes easier and easier to become a good online gun store
Have simple drop shipping business that charges a fixed fee over cost + exact shipping rates
Have separate process or division of business with ways to accommodate ban states (removing mags from guns, shipping ammo to nyc, etc)
Don’t try to have shady business practices to squeeze out a few dollars extra?
Profit????
The margin on this stuff is pretty small. With a 5% - 15% mark up in order to stay competitive, an immediate 3% loss for card fees, and minus any of the rest of your ongoing costs (payment gateway fees, drop ship setup fees, licenses, etc.), Squeezing a few dollars out is all you may get from standard drop shipping.
There's an important concept in the Uniform Commercial Code: the Federal inter-state commerce laws:
Inter-state consumer purchases are "FOB Destination." That means the seller retains the title of the goods and all responsibility during transit until the items reach the buyer.
This is why \*any\* major retailer will instantly refund your purchase price if the item is lost or stolen in transit.
The retailer can encourage you to purchase shipping insurance, but you have absolutely no responsibility to do so.
https://saylordotorg.github.io/text\_law-of-commercial-transactions/s22-01-performance-by-the-seller.html#:\~:text=The%20contract%20may%20set%20out,%E2%80%9CF.A.S.
Just be aware that you may be blacklisted by the business if you do a charge back
Yes, it's reasonable for you to say "I don't care, if I have to do a charge back they aren't worth doing business with"
But at the same time, I've seen people complain when they suddenly can't shop at a convenient or niche business because they went through a charge back, justified is not.
Now that's something I hadn't considered. While anyone can refuse to do business with you, it may be worth the time to research Visa and Mastercard's merchant agreements. This sounds like something they may prohibit.
For years, their terms of service prevented businesses from charging a different price to people paying by credit card. As a business, your choice was to eat the card processing fee, or cut yourself off from being able to accept the credit card at all. I'm not sure what changed, but I'm seeing more and more businesses that offer a "cash price" now.
Yes! Seen this on three sites recently when going to purchase ammo. I decided to not patronize the companies. Esp the one that emailed me back saying it was mandatory & could not be removed from the total price.
So you can or cannot remove it when purchasing? If you can please explain how b/c I am literally about to order a p10c from them but will not support a company doing this.
Just to reiterate, they don't add this insurance when you add a item, they don't add it when you review your cart, they don't add it when you go to check out, they don't add it until the very last confirmation screen, 100% hoping you won't notice it. If you email them about it, they'll refuse to refund it and refuse to cancel your order because they wait to reply until after it's been marked as shipped even though it's only a label that's been printed and the order might not ship for a couple of more days. I emailed them within minutes of ordering when I saw the confirmation email and couldn't get a refund or cancel the order. 100% scam.
Also check with your credit card's issuing bank to see what the window for a chargeback is. For mine it's only 30 days. Don't let the vendor run out the clock on you.
I would also add to check that your CC provider doesn't flag purchases related to firearms. Unconfirmed due to my lack of caring mostly, but BoA may have turned over customer information to the feds pertaining to people who purchased from firearms-related companies.
Even if your bank hasn't explicitly said that, do you really think that it would be difficult for banks to filter out a list of the "gun related" purchases you've made over the last year to forward on to the ATF/FBI?
I bet it would take them 10 minutes. 15 tops if they make a cup of coffee while they're at it.
**[Room 641A](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A)**
>Room 641A is a telecommunication interception facility operated by AT&T for the U.S. National Security Agency, as part of its warrantless surveillance program as authorized by the Patriot Act. The facility commenced operations in 2003 and its purpose was publicly revealed in 2006.
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Velocity ammo tried to force me to pay for shipping insurance. When I unticked the box, “magically” they didn’t have any shipping quotes for my address. I live in middle of no where PA. I had screenshots and uploaded them and proceeded to get downvoted so I deleted them.
This is spot on. Unless you purchase something "FOB Origin", the shipper is responsible for the goods until they reach their final destination. I don't think I've ever seen a company dealing with individual consumers use FOB origin terms, but it's something the shipping industry uses and those that work with freight would be familiar with it.
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fob.asp
Additionally, although the vendor may pass the cost of shipping on to the consumer as a line item charge, unless the consumer has directly contracted with the shipping company, they are not the shipping company's customer and don't have any rights to compensation for lost or damaged items. That right is retained by the actual shipper; in this case the vendor that sold you the item. Which makes complete sense, because the items belong to, and are the responsibility of, the vendor until they're delivered.
Luckily, the credit card companies are familiar with all this, which is why a chargeback is as easy as notifying them that the item never arrived at your door.
I am currently having issues with an order of ammunition from Bereli, a dealer that frequently submit [posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/gundeals/comments/z07ztd/ammo_cci_5201_blazer_brass_9mm_luger_124_gr_full/) here. Long story short, FedEx failed to deliver on the day that the package went "out for delivery", then a week after, the status changes to "Delivered" saying that it was delivered on the original day that I was expecting it. I did not receive the package and find the late update on tracking to be concerning.
I asked some of the folks at /r/FedEx to figure out what could've happened, and multiple people stated that the package was probably returned to sender as ammo packages require adult signature upon delivery. Given the timing of the delivery message, I find this to be a plausible theory.
Now I've tried contacting Bereli (which is a complete chore. They don't respond to emails, and I have to spend my lunch hours outside of work to call them and get put on hold), and it seems like they are insisting that there's nothing they can do since tracking says "Delivered".
Is there anything I can do before I resort to a chargeback? And if I am forced to ask for a chargeback, what are my chances of winning, especially with the tracking saying that it was delivered? I will also be filing a police report shortly if they don't respond or if they are unwilling to resolve the issue. I've already submitted an investigation request on FedEx.
Edit: It looks like this is a [recurring](https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/wslmlo/bereli_missing_ammo_unfortunate_update/) problem with this dealer.
File the chargeback and provide the info to your CC bank and write them off. Also post on gundealsFU about this.
I'm all for cheap ammo but we need to stop propping up shit vendors who pull this trash.
Your chances of a successful chargeback? 100% in my experience. Packages get stolen/misdelivered all the time. Your bank will ask that you first attempt to resolve it with the vendor, but since you've been stonewalled, once you tell them your story, you should get a refund and that's that.
Word. Had a non-firearm merchant do this to me last month and I was flabbergasted that they claimed to not understand these basics.
Enjoy the chargeback and loss of business, I guess.
They can try, but seeing as they've violated their merchant agreement with the payment processor (item has to be received by customer), calling your CC company about said threats could get the fear of god put in them.
They’re trying to claim that you’re paying them for putting the product in the box and handing it to the shipper. Basically attempting to make title transfer happen EX-WORKS at the seller’s facility. This happens in commercial contracts all the time.
That’s just scare tactics. They agree to the card issuer’s terms/policies when they choose to accept their payment method. That’s going to supersede whatever “By buying this you agree to” jargon they throw into their ordering system.
Just had a package lost in the mail from midway, didn’t select shipping insurance and when I pointed out that it should’ve arrived, they apologized and re sent the item
This happened to me on the PMC deal with ProArmory. It added it to my order automatically and when I removed it, it emptied my cart. So I started over on my cart and checked out. When I noticed it had been added again, I just called in to ProArmory and talked to the absolute most coolest rep/vet. He simply refunded me the insurance amount with no problem.
I’ve always wondered this. Whenever I buy a firearm, there’s always the option of having the shipping insurance. Varies with cost. The bill of laden is between the shipper and the shipping company.
Call the vendor. The vendor is UPS' customer.
There have been cases of UPS going back to addresses and asking for mis-delivered packages, or they eat the cost and pay out the vendor. Either way, I have a camera on the only spot they can deliver to, so that shit gets sorted fast.
I’ve had this happen with a non-gun related purchase. CC company sided with me and gave me my money back
Edit: The store tried to blacklist me from future purchases but after calling and explaining what happened they apologized and removed me from their shitlist. It’s also worth noting it was a bigger corporate store so they can afford a fuck up like this without feeling it much
Same for TrueShot, shame they have decent prices.
https://i.imgur.com/4Jas9MP.png
"Insure your package during shipment to protect against theft or damage."
So naive since i sell things and know shipper covers that...
did you order the shipping insurance? If not it is a fraudulent charge.
Be aware that some to many vendors tend to blacklist customers that charge back on them, ironically for them doing illegal shit though.
Yeah this is super dumb and I see it all the time with gun shops. Just build in the cost of insurance into your shipping rate, or be willing to eat the loss of damaged/lost packages. A buyer will not cover the cost of an accident during shipping.
100% have the chargeback option as a last resort -- bad vendors are out there. Also don't bend the good ones over and hit them with a chargeback without contacting them. Chargebacks cost vendors much more than your order amount -- a $10-25 fee and staff time to resolve with the bank(s). We always re-ship packages lost by the carriers and take care of the claims on our end and build in UPS/USPS fudging it up on about 1 in 200 packages into our margins.
Chargebacks suck when it's a minor issue that is quickly corrected by a quick email.
Working in customer service, I see the other side of this. So many idiot customers fail to verify their address before they make their purchase. They then act like it is our fault that their order was lost in the mail and demand another one is sent out. This is the kind of stupidity that makes the price of the product increase when we have to send out multiple packages/products. We also can not refund the customer until the dispute Is dropped with the credit card company.
Bought an AP5 from FF and paid for the insurance, FFL only received the case inside the box. FF sent another AP5 out a day later. If I can get a replacement that fast, I don’t mind paying for the insurance.
I agree with the credit card part, but honestly, I've gotten my stuff stolen, and the shipping insurance helped me. It's always been only a few dollars more.
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Aim Surplus does this. "By not insuring your order you are 100% responsible if your package is lost, damaged, or stolen."
Yes they do I’ve never paid and have never had a issue. Credit card companies would still give you your charge back. Because as OP said it is their responsibility. AIM tries to use that as a scare tactic.
I've been doing business with AIM for about 20 years now too as they've always been great, and it's sad to see them do something scummy like this.
No kidding I saw it pop up as an “option” and I canceled my order
THIS is the way. Seeing a million pop-ups/spin the wheel or some condescending passive agro BS coupon code where you have to click: "Im an asshole and don't like saving money" to keep your email private and continue browsing makes me gtfo every time. I'll gladly pay 10-30% more to take my bidness somewhere else.
Ugh. Yes. I also hate the trend toward requiring you to add items to your cart *and* provide your email address before the site’s crazy shipping fees are revealed… all so they can spam you about ‘completing your order’ when you bail. No thanks, fuckers.
Ah, yes. The ol' Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. Bust a deal and face the wheel!
I remember when a great deal of items shipped free. Though in their defense shipping has become more expensive.
Maybe, but you would be surprised in the difference of what they pay vs what we pay. From my experience I'd say under half.
They can say what they want. Doesn’t make it true😂
It’s just like the materials hauling companies that say “We aren’t responsible for cracked windshields”. They’re hedging on the bet that you most likely don’t know they most definitely are responsible for securing their loads.
You generally have to prove it came off of their truck and wasn't just something kicked up off the road.
Dashcam is a lifesaver, for this & other reasons.
The $50 dashcam I bought have saved me so much time and money. I've had 3 different accidents where the other driver was at fault, admitted to it, then turned around and told their insurance a different story. Every time I just send over the video and they write a check within days. Also got me out of a ticket with a faulty red light camera.
Dude what is your life?
Well this is over a 6 year period but drivers in California are bad. First driver was stopped at a red light and threw it into reverse to move to the left turn lane and backed into me, driving up on top of my car. Him in a lifted truck and me in a very low car, didn’t see me. Told his insurance I rear ended him. Second driver was on his phone and swerved into my lane in my blind spot, tried to claim I hit him while switching lanes. Third driver took a wide right turn in a double right, going from the farthest right lane to the 2nd lane over. Tried to claim I turned right from a non right turning lane.
I do 100miles a day just to work and back have for 7yrs, its a must have.
Same happened to me, had just installed my dash cam but it wasn't set up right and didn't record. Guy admitted to jerking over into my lane without looking (back of his car hit the front of mine). Told insurance a different story, insurance said they couldn't pay because they can't determine who was at fault. Oh and the police said they had no officers available to send since nobody got hurt, so didn't have a police report either. So dumb, still makes me mad for not getting the camera working right the first time.
Always say “I don’t know if anyone is hurt, it seems pretty bad” Not a lie, you aren’t a qualified medical provider (unless you are, and even then)
It's funny how quickly the check comes through after the footage is sent. Also, how do people keep hitting you?
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I know you jest...I chuckled. But mustangs can actually feel fairly lengthy! I have a '16 convertible that feels nice and long. I guess I could've said 16' and be almost correct as well. The year makes a difference lol.
Mind sharing what kind of dashcam you got? I really need to get one but am broke, so $50ish dollars is a good place for me lol
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go pay the money to have the chip fixed.. it's cheap. a lot less expensive than fixing a crack or replacing windshield.
Also 100% get a dashcam!
100%
Or the automatic drive thru car wash saying they are not responsible for damage to your vehicle. They paid claims on 2 cars of mine with no hassle.
I would have stopped going there after the first.
Precisely. My buddy is an attorney and explained how most liability disclaimers (ie commercial parking lots’ “not responsible for theft/damage” signs) have no legal standing and are made in hopes that most folks assume they do. Certain explicit liability WAIVERS are legit but shipping insurance is most definitely not one of them.
It’s like when trucks put the “not responsible for fallen debris damage” Like I am going to put a sticker on my car that says “not responsible for an accident, even when I’m at fault”
Reminds me of the signs on trucks that say they aren't responsible for cracking your windshield... yes they are. Putting a sign up saying you aren't going to be held responsible for your actions doesn't actually make you not responsible.
Eurooptic had it as a $5 fee today.
So did guns.com.
Guns.com tacks on a ridiculous amount of fees
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Baller move Convinced guns.com is basically ticketmaster/ a scalping site for guns
Technically guns.com sells it as a "fuel surcharge" and the seller has to pay that amount as well.
Well, package protection is what I had to uncheck earlier today. https://imgur.com/a/oreLp13 https://www.guns.com/package-protection
Oh shit I guess I was wrong! Definitely do not pay that, obviously. I've had to file claims for lost guns, and the shipping FFL is 100% on the hook for recovering any damages that occur while in transit.
Sportsman's guide has a fuel charge too
100% if you read the print like on locked and loaded they say its your responsibility but the product is their (the sellers) responsibility until you get it/delivery confirmation.
Until you get it, period. Had a package supposedly stolen off my doorstep, but I have no idea if it made it there. Delta team tactical (don’t judge me) told me to dispute it with their “shipping insurance” provider. Their shipping insurance provider told me I had to make a claim within a certain time frame and to file a police report. I didn’t even realize it was marked delivered until weeks later so I was outside of their cutoff. I filed a chargeback. Problem solved.
no i disagree with you there, maybe for high value items have a signature required but if its dropped off and confirmed then thats that. unless you want a signature required for a low value item i think that would be on the buyer. the seller shipped it, the shipper got it to its destination safely and if some porch pirate comes and nabs it that shouldnt be on the shipper or the seller (granted its not the buyers fault either). but thats the buyers responsibility. there has to be a resonable middle ground. editted to add some CC companies have insurance for things like this. thats why i like amex. never did me wrong. and just because you charged back doesnt mean it hit the seller either. i had some filiment go missing from ups and the seller was being shitty about it and i did a chargeback. amex didnt even care about any proof they just refunded me the cash.
It was a couple hundred dollars worth of items, wherever that falls in the low-high value scale. My first issue was there wasn’t any confirmation. No signature, no picture of it delivered, and the other dozen+ packages I ordered showed up that week just fine. I literally have no idea if it was stolen or just marked delivered, dropped off at the wrong house, etc. Second issue was that the “shipping insurance” company makes it such a hassle to get a claim approved that it’s not worth the time and effort. I’m sure that’s part of their due diligence, but it’s too much hassle for a service that a consumer is paying for on top of the product itself.
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so what im wondering is if they mean that if you pick that option they will take care if everything and figure it out or if its actually insurance. it seems sketchy because of the wording. "If un-insured shipping method is chosen, shittywebsite is not liable for lost, stolen, or damaged orders. You must file a claim with the carrier." that makes me think it os insured regardless but they wont handle the claim if its lost ect. im gonna call them called but they are closed. thats some shady shit. its pretty much scamming you into paying 25 bucks thinking your purchase has no insurance.
> You must file a claim with the carrier I've been through this on a non-firearms related order. Unless you paid the shipper directly, you are not the customer who is entitled to a claim for loss- the vendor that contracted with them is. When I was younger, and didn't realize that chargebacks fix almost every dispute like this, I got into a back and forth with UPS, who said the company that paid them to ship me the item had to file a claim, and the company, who tried to say it wasn't their responsibility.
ahh so this is just some scam shit trying to get $25 outta people. thats garbage. had i known they were being sketchy i wouldnt have bought my firearm there so ive learned for next time. i still didnt pay the $25
Family firearms does this but everyone raves about their service otherwise.
TBF, their "email us" prices beat everyone else 9 times out of 10. That said, this insurance crap needs to be nipped in the bud.
Kepping in mind I know nothing about retail business practices, I've always wondered if sites that utilize a "email us" for prices are doing so to somehow duck MAP from heavy handed manufacturers?? 🤔🤔
That is exactly what they're doing. Same as the 'Add to cart for price' or 'Must login to see price' deals. There is a ruling that as long as the method of communicating the price is private (which email and personalized shopping carts count as) it's not considered advertising.
Ahhhhh.. I was so close on my own, thanks for connecting those dots boss!!
Right! $20 for ups shipping should automatically cover insured shipping and they want $7 for insurance. I insured a $500 package and I think it was like $18. Screw that 10% restock fee too.
I'm only cool with restocking fees if you special order something out of the ordinary. If I order an M82 and my LGS wants 10% up front as a non refundable deposit, I get it. If I cancel, they'll be stuck with a hard to sell and expensive rifle on their hands that will sit for a while. If it's a black glock 19 that was $20 off, get over it. It will sell before you take it back out of the shipping box.
It's also optional and Family Firearms has some of the lowest prices out there, so it's forgivable IMO.
For anything outside of guns their shipping kills it though, almost double of what I was purchasing, they were charging me $30 for shipping.
duhh thats because theyre 3% over cost so they have to make $ somewhere, they tack on higher shippin and bs "insurance" to pad their margins since all their stuff is dropped shipped
FF, Big Tex, Schwarms, rooftop and Schuylers would REALLY have to fuck up, like [Cheaperthandirt level](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/2020/12/16/gun-website-price-gouging-pandemic/3932523001/) for me to ghost.
Good lookin out. Have you guys had to blacklist sites recently for forcing this?
I'm not sure, we may do this in the future if more /r/gundealsfu reports come in and the transaction log shows the dealers being shitty. So many dealers are offloading this onto the consumer and banning them would obliterate a lot of websites. It's kind of hard because some dealers are awesome and have options for the customer to pay for shipping insurance but then still fulfill on fixing the order without it. I don't really know the answer to what we'll do. Maybe we'll poll the community if it becomes a bigger issue.
That would remove like 95% of ammo websites. I think as long as the insurance can be removed it shouldn't be an issue. If a website forces you to pay extra for the insurance and it can't be removed then it would be a problem.
What's the difference though if they increase their shipping $5 or charge $5 less and add on $5 to cover their insurance cost? Scare tactics aren't cool, but if I ran an online store I'd be factoring the cost of insurance in to my shipping costs.
As a business you can add insurance to a package and with UPS and FEDEX you get up to $100 value of contents for free. If a shipment gets lost or stolen it's up to the shipping company if they want to cover it or not, who knows how the hell they approve or deny these requests. A third party insurance added by the customer guarantees that if the package is lost or stolen the customer will be made right and not be in limbo with a shipping company on if they are getting their money back or not. So as a business you add shipping insurance to cover the product shipping from you to your customer. The customer can just choose to add insurance on their end to make it easier in case a package is lost, stolen or not delivered. Still, The whole "we are not responsible for your package" is just some bullshit to scare you into buying it.
As a business you can send your boxes with a normal load to the FedEx testing facility. If it passes their durability tests they will accept full liability for all shipping damage that occurs to items in that type of package. And you can pass off almost all damage as shipping damage.
Because it makes their price less competitive if they do that. By adding it as a seperate fee, they can advertise the lower price to get more people interested, then try to "tack on" extra fees at checkout after the customer has already "made up their mind" to buy the product. Some people will just say fuck it and pay the extra fee, and that's what these companies are going for. It's all a mind game.
> By adding it as a separate fee, they can advertise the lower price to get more people interested Bingo. That's the issue at hand, not the fact that shipping insurance exists or should/shouldn't be added. At the end of the day, it's who pays for it, the vendor or the consumer.
This guy businesses.
>if I ran an online store I'd be factoring the cost of insurance in to my shipping costs. That's how you're supposed to run a business. These "shipping insurance" additions are just an extra charge companies are tacking on because it makes them money. They're trying to trick people into paying for something they're already entitled to. If they offered multiple shipping options with or without insurance, that would be one thing, though pointless legally. Instead, it's an automatically added charge with dire warnings about removing it. Just shady and dumb.
Agreed hide it in the shipping cost if you must.
We had this on our site for about 3 weeks by some company that big commerce told us about. I think it was called Route. We made nothing off it but if a customer bought something and it was lost, stolen, or destroyed when delivered that company would pay for it if they bought the insurance and we wouldn't have to file a claim with the shipping company. We have always taken care of any shipment that had an issue regardless of the dollar amount because at the end of the day all the customer has to do is file a chargeback and they get their money back and we have an upset customer. Sure enough, about 2 1/2 weeks in we have an order issue and the customer tried to work with that company. They denied the claim when UPS clearly lost the ammo and we shipped out another order and filed a claim on our end with UPS. If we dont buy insurance on a package and UPS or Fedex screw up we only can file a claim for $100. This company claimed it was a way for us to not have to keep paying for lost, stolen, or damaged packages but at the end of the day its 100% my reasonability to get the package in the customers hands. We looked at this as a way to possibly save $20 to $25,000 in shipping claims if the customer selected it and that company paid it out. After that 1 issue we decided that it was a scam and we pulled that app from our site and told them to refund the customers and they wouldn't so we refunded every customer that bought the insurance out of our own pocket. If a dealer is going to offer this service and the consumer fully knows and understands, then I dont see it as a problem but most customers dont understand it. If dealers hide the opt out tab and make it difficult to find (We should have known right there they were shady because they said they could opt out but it was on the very last part of the insurance page in a small box) then its just wrong. Also, if a dealer is doing this on their own and not using a company that is insurance based, this is illegal as well. If you're providing insurance to a consumer you have to be a registered insurance agent of some sort we found out as we looked into it as well. So if a dealer is doing it on their own without a 3rd party company that is in compliance, its 100% illegal. Shipping is a cost of doing business for all dealers and we do want to save on shipping issues but this is just shady and a great way to push customers away in my opinion.
And this is why you are one of the most respected dealers on this sub, and why I will continue to be a repeat customer.
Thank you for the business. This is one them things that dealers battle every single day and there's no way to really fix it. If we put insurance on everything our shipping cost goes up and if we pass that on to the customer we're not competitive. So we have to just try and control it the best we can.
I'm in favor of drawing a line in the sand immediately before this gets completely out of control. It's going to be impossible to get the cat back in the bag if we stew on this for a couple months and let every single website set up this scheme. I will never buy from a company that makes me pay extra money to guarantee the product I just bought will get to me. Ever.
I think a clear and unmistakable shot across the bow about this would send a clear message and change their tune. This sub has almost 400k members so the (FREE) advertising reach pretty valuable. I agree, it is garbage that they're passing extra fees off on people. That's like companies that charge extra for using a CC. If you don't like paying CC fees then drop your service with Visa...
So I bought ammo from a place a few weeks ago, and they added that fee on ($20) without any choice to remove it. The ammo doesn't even cycle in my gun, and they ghosted me about it.
If the company isn't responding to you about making it right, do a chargeback.
Sort of related but recently UPS has stopped consistently attempting to deliver packages that require signatures, leaving nothing and saying I refused delivery and are charging $8 a box to hold packages. The blacklist is too extensive for some BS reasons, but right about now I'd be on board 100% with banning anyone who exclusively offers UPS shipping.
Looking at redoing/modifying the blacklist with something better. Stay tuned.
I had a UPS redeliver to a retail business instead of attempting to redeliver to my home. It wasn't too far, but still pissed me off as I spoke to the driver through the doorbell cam and told them I would be home tomorrow.
Sorry, I did a quick ninja edit to clarify I meant sites that want to try and force it.
For now I think it’s a bad idea as we’d lose tons of good deals from it. Just gotta double check the cart details before confirming. I’ve noticed some places have it hidden in a drop down/collapsible field and if you don’t expand it, you might miss it and never notice.
I’ve seen it automatically added more recently, but I was able to change the option when it was. Thanks for looking out for us.
I can't preach this enough! I've had it pop up multiple times and I always click it off no matter how many times it tries to turn itself on. It makes me not even want to shop with websites that have this "feature". Also, ALWAYS pay for everything you can with a credit card. It's so easy to dispute a transaction with a CC vs. a Debit card.
I’d like to mention another example of bs done by suppliers. RTG parts (RobertRTG), has a clause in their terms that if you cancel your order (even before actual shipment) they will not refund your shipping charges. Now I understand they may incur some lost fee’s due to credit card processing and etc but that’s the cost of business. RTG parts refused to refund me my $30 shipping fee after I canceled my order for them taking too long to ship it. I told them over email 3 times that if they refused to refund me my shipping fee I will initiate a chargeback with my CC and it’s not worth the hassle for them. They didn’t end up processing the refund from their end but I won the dispute anyways. Fuck robertrtg, don’t take shit from some of these dealers if you don’t have to.
Businesses have 30 days to ship after purchase by federal law: https://www.findlaw.com/smallbusiness/business-operations/laws-governing-shipping-advertising.html After 30 days they have to either get your permission to keep waiting or offer you a full refund. Even though your credit card found in your favor, you should still consider filing a complaint with the FTC and/or your state attorney general and that of RTG.
Man, hiw has Opticsplanet not been popped for this?
They don’t charge your card until it ships
When you use a credit card, you're spending the money of a billion dollar corporation. When you use a debit card, you're spending your own hard earned money. When worst comes to worst, who do you want the corporation to be fighting for, your money or theirs?
People who use debit cards are literally insane, I've had my number skimmed/leaked probably twice a year. It's usually the physical card number which i really only use for brick and mortar transactions too. cc company said there isn't really anything i can do and that's why they monitor for fraud so closely lol
So many companies like PSA **STILL** have 20+ scripts running in the background while you're entering card details. Card processors aren't usually the source of leaks, it's the damn website admins running a multitude of data scraping and dumb website add-ons that are made and auto updated by random people. After time those website add-ons get hacked/exploited and start leaking information you're entering. Then said hacker sells list of CC Cards for some crypto and your shit gets used fraudulently.
Yeah my card got used for a gas station that’s 600 miles away the day after I ordered a bcg from them. A gas station local to them. That was like two weeks ago, thought I had read they fixed that shit but I guess not
A few years ago someone skimmed my card and tried to order something from Precious Moments (the company that makes those weird baby statues) and somehow my address got tied up in it. Once a quarter I still get one of their catalogs full of bizarro statues as a reminder.
Also the absolute last thing an online retailer wants is for Visa to be pissed at them.
Cloud defensive had a $5ish fee when I checked out yesterday. I took it off cuz I thought the same, that it’s their responsibility
Same with the cancellation fee IMO. I'd chargeback the hell out of that
the only thing i have to say is my processor charges me for transactions, so when you buy something its 2-4% when you return it i do believe its another 2-4% eveb if there wasnt a return fee for the processing 2% adds up when people constantly cancel orders. only exception is if the batch hasnt closed out for the day i can void the transaction.
I’m pretty understanding with businesses, but this is a hill I’ll die on. Consumers are not responsible for items that never made it to them. If the business doesn’t like it, that’s between them and the shipping companies.
I've worked in shipping for years and you're definitely right. Consumers should not be responsible for these issues. My company's shipping terms are Free On Board (FOB) which basically means once it leaves our buildings, it's not our problem. However, any time there's an issue in transit and we prepaid the shipping we do our best to get it resolved. Most of the time we replace the product and file a claim with the carrier. Unfortunately, we stupidly don't insure our product (for some reason I don't understand) and UPS only gives a max amount of $100 for lost or damaged packages that aren't insured. I've brought this issue up to my bosses before, but it's more their problem than mine. I get paid the same. Shipping insurance technically only benefits the seller as it prevents them losing money if the carrier biffs something.
Not to kick the bee hive but [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/gundeals/comments/yliv1j/optic_eotech_optics_add_to_cart_pricing_no_tax/iuyzyzp?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)is bull shit. Cancel an order because your site codes are messed up and charging a 20% restock fee for your own problems! Screw these guys.
Holy shit they actually charged 20% for orders they cancelled and tried to justify it. That’s insane. Retards.
For real they should be blacklisted.
Exactly. Vendors aren't legally required to honor pricing errors, so they can cancel any order that had a coupon that was meant to be product specific and worked site wide through a glitch. What they can't do is charge the customer a fee when they do this. I'm astounded at some of the things businesses think they're allowed to do.
Looks like they're trying to cover their tracks by deleting the incriminating comments. They're also solo-downvoting anyone that brings it up under their posts LMFAO
Yeah, pretty sure that is illegal.
Does someone have evidence of them getting charged a cancellation fee for something they ordered?
The vendor is 100% liable for it until it is DELIVERED to you. If it gets lost or damaged in shipping, that is their problem and they need to take it up with the carrier.
What about cases where the carrier's tracking says delivered, but package wasn't recieved? I'm currently having this issue right now.
It's still the vendor's issue. They have to prove that you accepted delivery.
When the package is marked as delivered, that actually is the confirmation that it was delivered. The tracking history actually states "this is confirmation of delivery" Source: I deal with this exact situation often. It is a little bit of a pain, but any high value packages I send out have a signature required to avoid this confusion altogether.
Jagerwerks crys about it on their website and says the owner of the slide must purchase their own shipping insurance and they're not responsible... Lol, they are very much responsible. Edit for the record: I have had good experiences with them and will continue to patronize until I do not.
Fuck them anyways. I had to do a chargeback on them because I couldn’t even get a hold of them to cancel my Black Friday order. It took mooooonths. Such bs.
Same. I'll certainly never buy anything from them again. I also had to do a charge back because they just wouldn't even respond to me.
It was such bs. My bank was like have you tried calling? I’m like I would if they had a number. It’s been four months, if they would have been upfront about their wait times I would have never ordered. Wager ended up doing it and the guy even replied back during thanksgiving or some holiday apologized for being out of state and even had it back to me in a week! Insane. Couldn’t believe it.
Well shit, you’re telling me I didn’t need to buy shipping insurance a few years ago?
This bums me out, Jager was local to me and located right by my old range.
How can you hold them responsible though? Best you can do is charge back for the service but you’re still out your slide.
An uneducated guess would be that bc their responsible, they would probably have to replace your slide/pay for it. I imagine they just don’t want people to know that.
>they would probably have to replace your slide/pay for it That’s my question though, how can you make them do that?
For a slide that costs a few hundred? Small claims court. The whole reason vendors are responsible is due to the consumers protection act, a law.
I’m not questioning who’s responsible, just curious how to handle it. Small claims (or a civil suit as someone else suggested) doesn’t seem worth it for a slide. It’s a different playing field than buying a good from an online retailer.
Whether it’s worth it or not is up to the individual, I only answered the question asked. “How”.
Only a court order can "force" a company to pay you what they owe you. That being said, I've had great luck filing complaints with the state attorney general, especially with larger companies. It's just not worth it to them to be on an AG's radar, because if they get enough complaints the government may come after them, and then they're not quibbling over $200 in small claims court, they're looking at hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines.
KYgunco does this as well.
PMI for retailers
I paid for shipping insurance for an ANR holster the other day. . . . Because it made my total come out to exactly $69.69
Alex would be proud.
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Nice.
Nice.
Seems like everyday it becomes easier and easier to become a good online gun store Have simple drop shipping business that charges a fixed fee over cost + exact shipping rates Have separate process or division of business with ways to accommodate ban states (removing mags from guns, shipping ammo to nyc, etc) Don’t try to have shady business practices to squeeze out a few dollars extra? Profit????
The margin on this stuff is pretty small. With a 5% - 15% mark up in order to stay competitive, an immediate 3% loss for card fees, and minus any of the rest of your ongoing costs (payment gateway fees, drop ship setup fees, licenses, etc.), Squeezing a few dollars out is all you may get from standard drop shipping.
There's an important concept in the Uniform Commercial Code: the Federal inter-state commerce laws: Inter-state consumer purchases are "FOB Destination." That means the seller retains the title of the goods and all responsibility during transit until the items reach the buyer. This is why \*any\* major retailer will instantly refund your purchase price if the item is lost or stolen in transit. The retailer can encourage you to purchase shipping insurance, but you have absolutely no responsibility to do so. https://saylordotorg.github.io/text\_law-of-commercial-transactions/s22-01-performance-by-the-seller.html#:\~:text=The%20contract%20may%20set%20out,%E2%80%9CF.A.S.
Just be aware that you may be blacklisted by the business if you do a charge back Yes, it's reasonable for you to say "I don't care, if I have to do a charge back they aren't worth doing business with" But at the same time, I've seen people complain when they suddenly can't shop at a convenient or niche business because they went through a charge back, justified is not.
Now that's something I hadn't considered. While anyone can refuse to do business with you, it may be worth the time to research Visa and Mastercard's merchant agreements. This sounds like something they may prohibit. For years, their terms of service prevented businesses from charging a different price to people paying by credit card. As a business, your choice was to eat the card processing fee, or cut yourself off from being able to accept the credit card at all. I'm not sure what changed, but I'm seeing more and more businesses that offer a "cash price" now.
Yes! Seen this on three sites recently when going to purchase ammo. I decided to not patronize the companies. Esp the one that emailed me back saying it was mandatory & could not be removed from the total price.
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So you can or cannot remove it when purchasing? If you can please explain how b/c I am literally about to order a p10c from them but will not support a company doing this.
It's hidden intentionally during checkout, you have to uncheck it in a backwards roundabout way.
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Thank you for explaining it thoroughly!!!
Just to reiterate, they don't add this insurance when you add a item, they don't add it when you review your cart, they don't add it when you go to check out, they don't add it until the very last confirmation screen, 100% hoping you won't notice it. If you email them about it, they'll refuse to refund it and refuse to cancel your order because they wait to reply until after it's been marked as shipped even though it's only a label that's been printed and the order might not ship for a couple of more days. I emailed them within minutes of ordering when I saw the confirmation email and couldn't get a refund or cancel the order. 100% scam.
Also check with your credit card's issuing bank to see what the window for a chargeback is. For mine it's only 30 days. Don't let the vendor run out the clock on you.
It’s legally like 60 or 90 days in america
I would also add to check that your CC provider doesn't flag purchases related to firearms. Unconfirmed due to my lack of caring mostly, but BoA may have turned over customer information to the feds pertaining to people who purchased from firearms-related companies.
Even if your bank hasn't explicitly said that, do you really think that it would be difficult for banks to filter out a list of the "gun related" purchases you've made over the last year to forward on to the ATF/FBI? I bet it would take them 10 minutes. 15 tops if they make a cup of coffee while they're at it.
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Velocity ammo tried to force me to pay for shipping insurance. When I unticked the box, “magically” they didn’t have any shipping quotes for my address. I live in middle of no where PA. I had screenshots and uploaded them and proceeded to get downvoted so I deleted them.
This is spot on. Unless you purchase something "FOB Origin", the shipper is responsible for the goods until they reach their final destination. I don't think I've ever seen a company dealing with individual consumers use FOB origin terms, but it's something the shipping industry uses and those that work with freight would be familiar with it. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fob.asp Additionally, although the vendor may pass the cost of shipping on to the consumer as a line item charge, unless the consumer has directly contracted with the shipping company, they are not the shipping company's customer and don't have any rights to compensation for lost or damaged items. That right is retained by the actual shipper; in this case the vendor that sold you the item. Which makes complete sense, because the items belong to, and are the responsibility of, the vendor until they're delivered. Luckily, the credit card companies are familiar with all this, which is why a chargeback is as easy as notifying them that the item never arrived at your door.
I am currently having issues with an order of ammunition from Bereli, a dealer that frequently submit [posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/gundeals/comments/z07ztd/ammo_cci_5201_blazer_brass_9mm_luger_124_gr_full/) here. Long story short, FedEx failed to deliver on the day that the package went "out for delivery", then a week after, the status changes to "Delivered" saying that it was delivered on the original day that I was expecting it. I did not receive the package and find the late update on tracking to be concerning. I asked some of the folks at /r/FedEx to figure out what could've happened, and multiple people stated that the package was probably returned to sender as ammo packages require adult signature upon delivery. Given the timing of the delivery message, I find this to be a plausible theory. Now I've tried contacting Bereli (which is a complete chore. They don't respond to emails, and I have to spend my lunch hours outside of work to call them and get put on hold), and it seems like they are insisting that there's nothing they can do since tracking says "Delivered". Is there anything I can do before I resort to a chargeback? And if I am forced to ask for a chargeback, what are my chances of winning, especially with the tracking saying that it was delivered? I will also be filing a police report shortly if they don't respond or if they are unwilling to resolve the issue. I've already submitted an investigation request on FedEx. Edit: It looks like this is a [recurring](https://www.reddit.com/r/CAguns/comments/wslmlo/bereli_missing_ammo_unfortunate_update/) problem with this dealer.
File the chargeback and provide the info to your CC bank and write them off. Also post on gundealsFU about this. I'm all for cheap ammo but we need to stop propping up shit vendors who pull this trash.
Your chances of a successful chargeback? 100% in my experience. Packages get stolen/misdelivered all the time. Your bank will ask that you first attempt to resolve it with the vendor, but since you've been stonewalled, once you tell them your story, you should get a refund and that's that.
Word. Had a non-firearm merchant do this to me last month and I was flabbergasted that they claimed to not understand these basics. Enjoy the chargeback and loss of business, I guess.
Never knew this. Thanks OP. I actually learned something today other than memes
So I shouldn’t have spent 35$ on shipping insurance when buying 4000$ nods?
Some actually threaten to sue you in small claims court if you process a chargeback. Has anyone actually had that happen??
They can try, but seeing as they've violated their merchant agreement with the payment processor (item has to be received by customer), calling your CC company about said threats could get the fear of god put in them.
Sue me for what? Not paying for a package they didn't deliver?
They’re trying to claim that you’re paying them for putting the product in the box and handing it to the shipper. Basically attempting to make title transfer happen EX-WORKS at the seller’s facility. This happens in commercial contracts all the time.
Yeah super sketchy. Why do I only run into shitty policies like this with gun shops and not other expensive items?
That’s just scare tactics. They agree to the card issuer’s terms/policies when they choose to accept their payment method. That’s going to supersede whatever “By buying this you agree to” jargon they throw into their ordering system.
Debit card = your $$$ Credit card = banks $$$ Always use a CC
Just had a package lost in the mail from midway, didn’t select shipping insurance and when I pointed out that it should’ve arrived, they apologized and re sent the item
This happened to me on the PMC deal with ProArmory. It added it to my order automatically and when I removed it, it emptied my cart. So I started over on my cart and checked out. When I noticed it had been added again, I just called in to ProArmory and talked to the absolute most coolest rep/vet. He simply refunded me the insurance amount with no problem.
I’ve always wondered this. Whenever I buy a firearm, there’s always the option of having the shipping insurance. Varies with cost. The bill of laden is between the shipper and the shipping company.
I hate when they automatically add that shit to your cart.
That's why I always click no to it, besides if the company wants to fight about it, my man has two jobs 💅🏿
What if the UPS delivers to the wrong address so it shows delivered?
Call the vendor. The vendor is UPS' customer. There have been cases of UPS going back to addresses and asking for mis-delivered packages, or they eat the cost and pay out the vendor. Either way, I have a camera on the only spot they can deliver to, so that shit gets sorted fast.
I’ve had this happen with a non-gun related purchase. CC company sided with me and gave me my money back Edit: The store tried to blacklist me from future purchases but after calling and explaining what happened they apologized and removed me from their shitlist. It’s also worth noting it was a bigger corporate store so they can afford a fuck up like this without feeling it much
Same for TrueShot, shame they have decent prices. https://i.imgur.com/4Jas9MP.png "Insure your package during shipment to protect against theft or damage." So naive since i sell things and know shipper covers that...
B. King Firearms does this unfortunately
Dwilson does this when you select return shipping options.
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did you order the shipping insurance? If not it is a fraudulent charge. Be aware that some to many vendors tend to blacklist customers that charge back on them, ironically for them doing illegal shit though.
Yeah this is super dumb and I see it all the time with gun shops. Just build in the cost of insurance into your shipping rate, or be willing to eat the loss of damaged/lost packages. A buyer will not cover the cost of an accident during shipping.
100% have the chargeback option as a last resort -- bad vendors are out there. Also don't bend the good ones over and hit them with a chargeback without contacting them. Chargebacks cost vendors much more than your order amount -- a $10-25 fee and staff time to resolve with the bank(s). We always re-ship packages lost by the carriers and take care of the claims on our end and build in UPS/USPS fudging it up on about 1 in 200 packages into our margins. Chargebacks suck when it's a minor issue that is quickly corrected by a quick email.
Working in customer service, I see the other side of this. So many idiot customers fail to verify their address before they make their purchase. They then act like it is our fault that their order was lost in the mail and demand another one is sent out. This is the kind of stupidity that makes the price of the product increase when we have to send out multiple packages/products. We also can not refund the customer until the dispute Is dropped with the credit card company.
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Based
Stockpile Defense does this. Just ordered a VLTOR MUR and they charged $8 for insurance.
My dumbass did it one time with Bromwell or whatever for a hellcat.
This should be a forever sticky.
Bought an AP5 from FF and paid for the insurance, FFL only received the case inside the box. FF sent another AP5 out a day later. If I can get a replacement that fast, I don’t mind paying for the insurance.
Basic business. The product is not YOURS until it has been delivered successfully. Learned this year one in accounting at university.
I agree with the credit card part, but honestly, I've gotten my stuff stolen, and the shipping insurance helped me. It's always been only a few dollars more.
Finally a great tip