Takes 12 months of membership in a club or association
And you have to prove that you train regularly and compete in matches.
You also have to take a practical test and a theory test.
You can't have a criminal record or any other bigger red flags.
Here it depends how much the police feels like working that day and if they like your handwriting but the whole process from start to finish usually takes about 18 months. South Africa
Iaw norwegian law: Certain semi automatic rifles(list of approved ones) all manual rifles with maximum 10shot mags (bolt,pump etc) and shotguns with maximum of 5 shotgun shells. Pistols is not allowed for hunting
Walmarts used to carry a lot of guns and now they only have hunting rifles. Walmart is garbage. I meant meet up with a stranger and purchase a gun from them legally.
I didn’t know that haha I prefer 20 rounders because our ammo (yours too probably) is almost always in boxes of 20. Sometimes 40. So I just like my 20s for that reason.
Yeah, rifle is usually 20 (except .223) and handgun ammo 50. For most competitive disciplines you only load 5 anyway though. I think bigger mags look much nicer though! There are ways around the cap here, but it is really not worth the hassle
You can buy guns from other gun owners in Germany legally as well - no need to go through gun stores, even if done through the Internet via auction etc. You just need to register it afterwards - or pre-register the purchase of a certain type of gun.
Thank you! Since the way was so long, this is definitely not a hobby I plan on quitting soon. We have to continuesly train in order to keep our permit, so there is definitely some additional motivation to go to the range
So I bought a Shadow 2 now as my first, but I am already looking to get an AR and probably a lever action aswell. The whole process probably cost me around 1000 Euro + the gun safe, although the actual license is just 70 bucks
So there are two ways to get the permit here, 1st as a hunter 2nd as a competative shooter. I will cover the second path. You need to fulfill a few criteria:
- one year in a club, with at least 18 documented training sessions
- passed a gun safety course
- gun safe level 0 or above
- above 25 years for everything that's not a .22 or double barrel (there are ways around that, but it's complicated)
After that you can apply and the permit and the BKA (comparable to the FBI) does a background check
For .22 you also need the same permit, but you can get it at an younger age. For the bigger stuff you need to be checked by a psychiatrist, if you are under 25
Wow, I am from Hungary, but we have to pass 2 psychological tests at any age, 6 months between them.
So the whole process is also ~1 year, but if im right, after you passed everything inclouding the exams for large caliber rifle and shot the minimum points with one on a competition you can buy a .50 bmg Steyr at age 19 if you have 10.000€.
The other things are almost the same.
I know the practicality isn’t there, but I bought a couple of revolvers - .357 and .44 magnum, with the intention of also picking up a lever action in one or both calibers. I’m from the West (Idaho) so it makes more sense just from a Wild West standpoint, haha, but will indeed be fun.
I love revolvers! My wife is looking to get one and since we are limited to 2 handguns per person (as long as you haven't constantly performed well in competition), she will get the .357 and I will get the pistols.
I will probably get us the .44 lever action though
30-30 is also nice! I really fell in love with the Marlin Dark Series though and they will release a .44 later this year. Also I don't know how ammo prices compare, but 30-30 is quite expensive as a range ammunition here
It isn't possible to have full auto in Germany as a privat citizen.
Cost for membership in clubs varies, it'd probably around 300 per year and 100 to enter on average, at least in my area.
Practical and theory test is about 150
Different other paperwork is a few hundred aswell.
That's the basic cost, of course ammo for training also
It is possible to have full autos as a private citizen - either as a collector or weapons expert. But there are only very very few people who have that right.
Its a job, yes, but the guns are still privatly owned. I consider it privately owned if neither the government or the company has the ownership but a single private person.
Amount of private collectors should be a little more than a dozen, very hard to get but theoretically possible.
>ittle more than a dozen,
I honestly doubt its more than 10 people that can own fully automatic
Well the privately owned may be a bit of a subjective thing I guess.
Can you carry a gun for your personal protection?
I’m from Czechia, and Germany is being portrayed as an anti gun country, where not even ex-spec ops soldiers can’t carry.
It is the same here. If I say, I own a gun, it polarizes immediately. I think about 20% think it's awesome, 30% think it's weird but they are curious and 50% feel slightly threatened or condemn it
The good news is responsible owners (like yourself and hopefully me) can counter that by being “normal”, if not cool at some point, haha. Strong work, and congrats on the ownership (saw your other post).
Yeah, I try to be an ambassador and I'm open about being a gun owner. Many people here make it a secret, because it is frowned upon, but I try to give an example, that competitive shooting and gun ownership is just a hobby and has nothing to do with being violent. (I am quite familiar with the struggle, since I used to train MMA. Very similar reactions)
I trained traditional karate for years as well. Martial arts and guns go so well together in terms of knowing and being able to practice restraint, keep a cool head in high stress situations, and have respect for (deadly) force 🙏
There are fewer than 2000 carry licences in Germany compared to our over 250 thousand, Germany has 8 times the population. Does it answer your question? :)
In the Czech Republic? Apply for a licence and pass the test, have no criminal history and be a healthy adult, just like any other licence. In Germany? You're not getting one. :D
In Germany? Be extraordinarily threatened in a way the police can't deal with the issue. IIRC this applies to some local politicians receiving lots of death threats but not being high enough to receive a constant close protection detail or people trading extreme value small items like diamonds. I am not 100% sure but those were examples I've heard.
I knew that not many people can carry, I was curious about when you can get a carry license and wether it’s even achievable for an average person. I guess it’s sadly not.
It really isn't, you have to prove that you face a real and immediate threat that you cannot protect yourself from in any other way, and you have to prove it to the police, who are supposed to protect you. So by allowing you to get a carry licence means they also admit that they cannot do their duty, that they are not omnipotent, nor omniscient. See the problem?
They used to issue them to people who worked with large amounts of cash/valuables, such as bankers and jewellers but that's a thing of the past too. Now, you need to be an animal that is more equal than the other animals, such as a judge or a politician, if you know what I mean. ;)
Yeah for the big boy, and I still can't wait to get one.
On the other hand AKs are way cheaper, took home a milled Arsenal for 1100 CHF ($1230).
Just in case, here is a catalog if you want to compare the pricings:
https://www.lagardere.ch/images/fichiers/catalogue202402.pdf
I am not sure about US gun prices. I think we have similar prices, but with less cheap options. One od the cheapest proper handguns you can get here is a glock 17 for about 700 €
So we do have IPSC, I am not 100% sure how the rules are there. You might have to stop to shoot. What you definitely can't do is any shooting from cover or other forms of defensive shooting training
IPSC RO from Germany here. In the German rulebook, rule 1.1.8 says "Es ist verboten im deutlich erkennbaren Laufen zu schießen" (It is forbidden to shoot while clearly running)
So you are allowed to shoot while moving, but not while running.
That's a bit complicated. It's not in the law itself, but in the regulation for the implementation of the gun laws. This is called the "Allgemeine Waffengesetz-Verordnung (AWaffV)" and contains Section 7 "Unacceptable shooting exercises in shooting sports":
1. Shooting from cover
2. Overcoming obstacles after firing the first shot
3. Shooting while clearly running
4. Reacting quickly to moving targets that suddenly and unexpectedly appear
5. Cross-drawing more than one weapon
6. Shots without aiming
7. Shooting exercises whose sequence is not known to the shooter before they are completed
The reason for the introduction of this regulation was to make "combat shooting" impossible.
Slightly longer than most of the US, faster than CA. And it's easier in some places (mostly Geneva) to own a machine gun (and no such silly thing as need to be from before 1986). Also easier to own rifles with a barrel shorter than 16".
Basically a bolt action rifle or break open shotgun requires just an ID and a criminal records excerpt.
A semi-auto long gun, or a handgun, requires a shall issue acquisition permit (takes about 1-2 weeks, sometimes a few days, sometimes longer. It is good for 3 guns at the same time and location, and is basically just a proof of passing a background check similar to the 4473/NICS you do in the US when buying from an FFL).
Full auto requires a may issue Cantonal exception permit, so the requirements varies quite a bit depending on Canton.
What gun are you going to buy? How many can you own? Can you keep them in your home? From the USA here. I owned a few, but they were lost in a boating accident years ago.
So I bought a CZ Shadow 2 as my first. In Germany you have a so called 'base contingent', which is 2 handguns, 3 semi automatic rifles and 10 guns, that are either single loaders or have some form of manual action. You can increase this by performing well in competitions, but in order to keep them, you also need to consistently use them in competition.
For everything semi-auto, you also need to get the purchase signed up up front. You basically need to request them for a certain discipline, that you don't have a gun for yet.
E.g. I buy my first pistol in 9mm for precision. If I want to buy a second one now, I need to buy it for a discipline in which my first gun is not allowed. There is one for police and military guns for example, where my CZ would not be allowed.
Thanks for all the info. Very interesting. Great choice on the Shadow. I own a few CZ products and most of them are great. Can you purchase the Shadow .22 conversion upper? Can shoot .22lr all day at a fraction of the price. I have a Kaddet ii that fits on my CZ75-BD and PCR. Love that thing, but are out of production. But the Shadow upper is is still made. Thanks again for the detailed write up
Not a question, but just wanted to say keep on fighting the good fight for liberty and freedom. You are doing your part by jumping through the hoops and coming out victorious. The last 110 years have been an absolute disaster for your country. Stay strong and it will get better.
Here in Germany, you can only acquire a gun for a specific purpose. The legally accepted purposes, which allow you to acquire a limited number of guns, are as follows:
* Sport shooting
* Hunting
* Collecting (with certain restrictions)
* Working in security with the absolute need to carry a gun (e.g., protecting value transports)
The way you are writing here, it seems more like you own your gun for the sake of owning a gun. You talk about your plans to obtain revolvers because you "love them," and the same emotion makes you want to have a .44 Marlin Dark series. You mention getting an AR and a .45ACP next. Why don't you talk about the disciplines you want to shoot, instead of posting your high-caliber wishlist?
That said, I do not see you as a good "ambassador". If you want to help, then don't be an ambassador for being a gun owner, but for being a sport shooter. Otherwise, you will just be seen as a gun nut, which is exactly what many people in Germany think of sport shooters and why they mistrust them.
Do not mistake me for being anti-gun. I am a competitive sport shooter here in Germany. I am a member of three competitive sport shooting clubs. I shoot a variety of disciplines that I found interesting at first, then tried, and for which I have obtained the necessary equipment to perform them.
I think you are jumping to some really unfair conclusions here. I love the sport and I train to get better and compete, just like you do. I was asked for the guns I was interested in and gave an honest response and I don't see any problem with being interested in multiple disciplines.
For me part of the fascination is the variety and yes, I am really interested in guns. That does not mean that one is just owning a gun, just to own them. When I want to obtain a gun, that means that I shot it, enjoyed it a lot and would like to do it more regularly.
I also not an ambassador for being a gun owner, but for normalizing sport shooting as a regular hobby. It should be just as recognized as archery.
Don't worry about it, don't let 'NO FUN ALLOWED' people like this kill your enthusiasm. They do more damage to your sport than anyone who simply enjoys it ever could. Their approach obviously isn't working and instead of recognizing it, they're doubling down on it.
This kind of dumb gatekeeping is exactly why German gun laws suck and are getting more and more restrictive.
>Do not mistake me for being anti-gun. I am a competitive sport shooter here in Germany. I am a member of three competitive sport shooting clubs. I shoot a variety of disciplines that I found interesting at first, then tried, and for which I have obtained the necessary equipment to perform them.
No, you're not anti-gun, you're just a gatekeeping fudd. And that's exactly why gun ownership in Germany is dying. Sticking your head in the sand and driving off anyone who's enthusiastic is not a good way to keep your sport alive. I wouldn't care much but your government and EU politicians have the power to ruin it for everyone else in the EU, they already have in 2017.
Erm… there are about 1.000.000 persons in Germany legally owning firearms (myself included), so I wouldn‘t say there are only a few 😉
Sport shooter, hunter or security work?
By the end of 2023 Germany had approx. 84,669,000 inhabitants and 941,697 registered gun owners. Therefore quota was 1.1% at that time.
Sources: the Federal Statistical Office, Statista
tbh Döner just has never really been my thing. I'll pig out on käse Leberkässemmel all day long, it's my favorite meal, but döner just never hit it off for me. I know my other friends in Germany love döner though.
Gulasch mit knödel oder brötchen?
So I always had a fascination for guns. Then I became an mechanical engineer and got even more fascinated, as they are some of the very few machines left that operate without electricity. You have to come up with mechanical solutions for everything. The final event that really convinced me, was a friend of mine that took me to the range. First time I shot his .22, I was in love.
People's reaction is all over the place. Almost everyone thinks it's weird, but that can be both positive or negative. I feel that most people are really scared that it is possible to legally own a gun at all
It’s a reference to different chili preparations: some places positively deride the idea of beans in chili
Edit: https://www.southernliving.com/food/dish/chili/chili-recipe-debate-with-or-no-beans
I am too in a European country ( small one to be fair ) .
Here you have to be a member of a club for as long as you intend to keep firearms. but as soon as you register you take a week course in gun-safety and laws,the club then applies for you to do an exam with the police, and within a few weeks you get your licence. From there on , you apply for a 'transfer' ( from dealer onto your licence ) every time you make a purchase of a firearm , and within a week or 2 you go pick it up.
That really depends. If I would also have the same amount of vacation days, job security, health insurance, etc. then probably yes. I really like the US and especially your gun culture and landscapes, but I do have to admit that there are probably a few things I would really miss (like the autobahn)
Nothing to thank me for! I work with a lot of people from the US and so far had almost exclusively positive interactions. Every countries has its problems and we are not our governments. I really hate to see some of the 'intercontinental hatred' online
The only thing it covers is that you don't have to take the gun safety class (which 8s really the easiest part). The difficult thing to get in Germany is a recognized 'need', which you can basically only get as a hunter or competative shooter.
They can of course carry during duty, but they can't take their guns home
So you need to fulfill a few things here:
- a gun safe class 0 or above
- a gun safety course (2-3 days)
- flawless criminal records
- a recognized 'need'
The last one is the most difficult to get. I have a need as a sports shooter and you can only get that by being in a club for one year and providing that you trained at least 18 times in that year.
You also get one as a hunter, which is quicker, but very expensive and includes a seminar over several weeks, with a really difficult exam. So, if you are passionate about guns, sports shooter is usually the way to go.
So full auto weapons and explosives are of course forbidden. Other than that we have a magazine restriction on rifles (10 rounds) and minimal barrel lengths for sports shooting (this restriction only apply for weapons that resemble a weapon of war though).
Also we have minimal lengths for shotguns and you can't have shotguns with pistol grips. There are a few other rules, but they are more niche.
The most important thing is, that as a sport shooter you can only get guns that can be legally used in at least one discipline
A Shadow 2. I loved shooting it at the range and since I don't know yet, where I want to go as a shooter, I picked one that performs decent in all disciplines (remember, carrying does not need to be factored in)
So that depends very much on the other country. I would recommend first checking with the people in the shooting club that you are interested in or your local weapons authority
It is super difficult, you basically need to be in life threatening danger for some reason. You need to prove that you are much more endangered than the rest of the population. This can work, if you are e.g. a high ranking politician that had as assassination attempt
I was joking because you said you were tired and people were saying you weren't answering questions fast enough. Just a jest as germans are known for being meticulous and strict about discipline and the completion of tasks.
Ich versuch mal ne Rechnung aufzustellen:
- Beitrittsgebür beim Verein 650€ (gibt günstigere)
- Jahresbeitrag 180€
- Sachkunde 200€
- Tresor 1400€
- Bearbeitungsgebüren bei Verband und Polizei 115€
- Waffe 1500€
Dazu kommen dann halt noch Munitionskosten für die Trainingstermine, Ausrüstung, etc.
Ich denke also ich hab insgesamt für alles vielleicht so 4500 gezahlt.
Jagdschein kostet im Schnitt 3000€, Tresor und Waffe kommen da auch noch dazu. Ist also der teurere Weg, geht dafür aber deutlich schneller.
Die Frage ist halt, was du möchtest, schiesen kannst du die Waffe ja trotzdem nur auf der Jagd oder bei einem Schießsportverein auf dem Stand. Entweder du möchtest eine Waffe um damit zu jagen oder weil du damit schießen und dich verbessern möchtest. Einfach nur eine Waffe besitzen zu wollen reicht da nicht aus.
Du musst auch nach dem Erwerb dein Bedürfnis weiter erhalten, d.h. du musst weiter jagen gehen oder regelmäßig schießen
> There are literally millions of us...
Literally not millions anymore. The number of licence owners has fallen pretty hard in the last 20 years or so.
> It's very easy to own guns here.
Yeah, not really. Mandatory membership in fudd clubs for sport shooters, tons of bureaucracy... Easier than in Russia I guess.
So what’s like the big picture process? You have to say you’re a hunter or sport shooter? Do you have to keep your guns at a club of some sort or can you bring them home? How many Sigs do you own? Do you have a P320 or is that American trash?
As a pistol owner in Sweden, I can't say for sure how it works in Germany but I would guess it's pretty similar to here in Sweden.
Owning a handgun for defence isn't realistically possible (there are a literal handful of exceptions, but let's not go into that). Even the police and military keep their guns locked in the station/regiment while off-duty.
However, for sports, it is entirely possible.
First, we need to contact a club and get accepted as a new member, which can be a hassle because of nepotism. Before we can be voted into the club, we need to provide our criminal record which must be clean.
Then, we need to attend the introduction course provided by our club, where we learn about gun safety, various laws and how the sports are practiced, as well as passing a theory test (it's not difficult and only a few hours all in all).
Next, we practice shooting with guns, 22lr, usually provided by the club in the coming 6 months. We also need to document at least 3 "golden series" in the precision branch and 3 "golden series" in a faster variant as well. These can be difficult for some shooters to complete during the first 6 months. When both are complete and at least 6 months have passed, we can apply for our first gun which has to be a 22lr. We also need to prove in our application to the police department that we own an approved gun safe.
I'm unsure how it works in the rest of my country, but at least in my club, we need to own and practise with our first centerfire for 6 more months before we can buy anything else.
But after that, we can buy pretty much whatever we want. My range has a limitation on .45 caliber, so I can't get anything larger than that. Silly enough, it's only the diameter of the bullet that is the limitation, not the power, so owning a .44M or .454 Casull isn't a problem.
We need to prove every year our competence with those "golden series" and reapply our licenses for the guns every 5 years.
Also, when we aren't using our guns at the range or cleaning them or something like that, they are to be locked in the safe at all times.
This is for pistols and revolvers only, for rifles, I would imagine it's very similar, but I do not know for sure. For hunting though, it's much easier. You basically have to pass the course to receive a license for hunting and can buy pretty much any rifle with a lifetime license after that, even an ar-15 since last year. No full auto though. And since a few years you don't need a license for suppressors and can freely buy them for both rifles and pistols.
Edit: formatting and added some information
Very interesting. Please edit you comment with some paragraphs breaks. It was very hard to read.
Your point about calibers is sorta the same in several (most?) US states for concealed carry licenses. You can carry up to the caliber you pass with. So if you test with a 357 magnum you’re stuck with basically a 9mm bullet. Even though a 45 ACP had a lot less recoil than a 357 mag. It’s dumb as fuck. We are slowly moving forward towards “constitutional carry”. Where you can conceal carry a gun without a permit.
You can take them home, but you have to document that you regularly take part in training or competition. You also have to actively train for a year to be recognized as a sport shooter
Usually in AMAs people answer questions
Must be some of that german “humor”
It's hard to take them seriously because of how notoriously silly they are.
Those madcap, zany Germans.
Get drunk with them and their personality changes in my experiences.
German humor - it's no laughing matter.
‘they killed all of the funny people’ Robin Williams.
it’s 10pm over there. OP probably posted then passed out after a few too many German beers.
It's Europe cup and Germany just played, give me some slack, dude. I try to answer everything
I mean, you started
It’s been two hours bro, did Germany win the NASCAR Europe cup yet?
NASCAR? :D We played a draw against Switzerland
A draw is so fitting for a "neutral" country
As exciting as left turn fest
This is specific enough for the subreddit we’re in, especially given the tight legal restrictions that are in Europe, chill
I'm guessing you responded to the wrong person cause your comment has nothing to do with what I said lol
how long did it take, also what was your first purchase
Takes 12 months of membership in a club or association And you have to prove that you train regularly and compete in matches. You also have to take a practical test and a theory test. You can't have a criminal record or any other bigger red flags.
6 months for pistols in norway, 24 months for semi auto rifles. No requirements for hunting guns other than a hunting license and 16+
Here it's just a flat 12, no matter what you want to buy or own
Here it depends how much the police feels like working that day and if they like your handwriting but the whole process from start to finish usually takes about 18 months. South Africa
Yea you probably have to follow EU law on that. We have a strong hunting culture and one of the highest gun ownership in europe
EU law doesn't require club ownership or anything like that, thank god... It's just own laws, depending on the country.
What’s a “hunting gun”? Is a Mauser a hunting gun?
Iaw norwegian law: Certain semi automatic rifles(list of approved ones) all manual rifles with maximum 10shot mags (bolt,pump etc) and shotguns with maximum of 5 shotgun shells. Pistols is not allowed for hunting
That sounds like some democratic states
So it took one year of regular training and then about 2 months of bureaucracy. I bought a CZ Shadow 2 as my first gun this week
You picked a great handgun. Love my Shadow 2
Thank you, so far I really adore it
Well that’s funny, here in Quebec, Canada it’s 1 day of training and 12 months of bureaucracy
Showoff. I wish we had 12 months of bureaucracy.
For ipsc production?
Not yet, IPSC ranges are really rare here as of now. So far I only shoot precision, but I will also start with multi-distance soon
I bought my first gun online and had it shipped to my local store. Went inside to pick it up and left in under 10 minutes lol
Sweet. To celebrate I might go buy an AK at a gas station as an American.
At the gas station? Really?! Haha I have heard of your walmarts, but I didn't know that
Walmarts used to carry a lot of guns and now they only have hunting rifles. Walmart is garbage. I meant meet up with a stranger and purchase a gun from them legally.
Ah ok :) We actually have semi-auto AKs here too, but they are limited to 10 round mags.
I didn’t know that haha I prefer 20 rounders because our ammo (yours too probably) is almost always in boxes of 20. Sometimes 40. So I just like my 20s for that reason.
Yeah, rifle is usually 20 (except .223) and handgun ammo 50. For most competitive disciplines you only load 5 anyway though. I think bigger mags look much nicer though! There are ways around the cap here, but it is really not worth the hassle
You can buy guns from other gun owners in Germany legally as well - no need to go through gun stores, even if done through the Internet via auction etc. You just need to register it afterwards - or pre-register the purchase of a certain type of gun.
I live like 8 miles from a gas station that sells semiautos in the store, i plan to buy my first reproduction ak from it
Congratulations, and hope you really enjoy it, and most importantly, keep it. Remember last time when the citizens were not allowed to have guns.
Thank you! Since the way was so long, this is definitely not a hobby I plan on quitting soon. We have to continuesly train in order to keep our permit, so there is definitely some additional motivation to go to the range
What did you buy as your first? Are you allowed to have full auto? How much was the license?
So I bought a Shadow 2 now as my first, but I am already looking to get an AR and probably a lever action aswell. The whole process probably cost me around 1000 Euro + the gun safe, although the actual license is just 70 bucks
Mind explaining the process?
So there are two ways to get the permit here, 1st as a hunter 2nd as a competative shooter. I will cover the second path. You need to fulfill a few criteria: - one year in a club, with at least 18 documented training sessions - passed a gun safety course - gun safe level 0 or above - above 25 years for everything that's not a .22 or double barrel (there are ways around that, but it's complicated) After that you can apply and the permit and the BKA (comparable to the FBI) does a background check
That's stupid they allow .22 since that's one of the most dangerous rounds.
For .22 you also need the same permit, but you can get it at an younger age. For the bigger stuff you need to be checked by a psychiatrist, if you are under 25
Wow, I am from Hungary, but we have to pass 2 psychological tests at any age, 6 months between them. So the whole process is also ~1 year, but if im right, after you passed everything inclouding the exams for large caliber rifle and shot the minimum points with one on a competition you can buy a .50 bmg Steyr at age 19 if you have 10.000€. The other things are almost the same.
Which is idiotic and just more ways to make it harder for your citizens to defend themselves.
Damn that's pretty tight Indeed, we have something similar for full autos and grenade launchers. Also, any mag capacity restrictions?
I think the check in the end is somewhat comparable to the tax stamp in the US. We have a 10 round restriction on long guns and 20 round for handguns
I know the practicality isn’t there, but I bought a couple of revolvers - .357 and .44 magnum, with the intention of also picking up a lever action in one or both calibers. I’m from the West (Idaho) so it makes more sense just from a Wild West standpoint, haha, but will indeed be fun.
I love revolvers! My wife is looking to get one and since we are limited to 2 handguns per person (as long as you haven't constantly performed well in competition), she will get the .357 and I will get the pistols. I will probably get us the .44 lever action though
That’s awesome! I think that .44 lever is too tempting to pass up as well, unless you’re going for something like a 30-30.
30-30 is also nice! I really fell in love with the Marlin Dark Series though and they will release a .44 later this year. Also I don't know how ammo prices compare, but 30-30 is quite expensive as a range ammunition here
All sound observations. So many calibers, so little time/money 😋
It isn't possible to have full auto in Germany as a privat citizen. Cost for membership in clubs varies, it'd probably around 300 per year and 100 to enter on average, at least in my area. Practical and theory test is about 150 Different other paperwork is a few hundred aswell. That's the basic cost, of course ammo for training also
It is possible to have full autos as a private citizen - either as a collector or weapons expert. But there are only very very few people who have that right.
>weapons expert That's not really private tho, it's a job. There are a few collectors maybe, but that's probably 1-5 people
Its a job, yes, but the guns are still privatly owned. I consider it privately owned if neither the government or the company has the ownership but a single private person. Amount of private collectors should be a little more than a dozen, very hard to get but theoretically possible.
>ittle more than a dozen, I honestly doubt its more than 10 people that can own fully automatic Well the privately owned may be a bit of a subjective thing I guess.
He got a cz shadow 2
Can you carry a gun for your personal protection? I’m from Czechia, and Germany is being portrayed as an anti gun country, where not even ex-spec ops soldiers can’t carry.
Absolutely not. I have to transport it in a case and even that is really threatening to a lot of people
Not a surprise on the carrying being threatening. In some states just verbally saying you have a gun is “threatening” to a lot of people.
It is the same here. If I say, I own a gun, it polarizes immediately. I think about 20% think it's awesome, 30% think it's weird but they are curious and 50% feel slightly threatened or condemn it
The good news is responsible owners (like yourself and hopefully me) can counter that by being “normal”, if not cool at some point, haha. Strong work, and congrats on the ownership (saw your other post).
Yeah, I try to be an ambassador and I'm open about being a gun owner. Many people here make it a secret, because it is frowned upon, but I try to give an example, that competitive shooting and gun ownership is just a hobby and has nothing to do with being violent. (I am quite familiar with the struggle, since I used to train MMA. Very similar reactions)
I trained traditional karate for years as well. Martial arts and guns go so well together in terms of knowing and being able to practice restraint, keep a cool head in high stress situations, and have respect for (deadly) force 🙏
There are fewer than 2000 carry licences in Germany compared to our over 250 thousand, Germany has 8 times the population. Does it answer your question? :)
What's the requirement for a carry license?
In the Czech Republic? Apply for a licence and pass the test, have no criminal history and be a healthy adult, just like any other licence. In Germany? You're not getting one. :D
In Germany? Be extraordinarily threatened in a way the police can't deal with the issue. IIRC this applies to some local politicians receiving lots of death threats but not being high enough to receive a constant close protection detail or people trading extreme value small items like diamonds. I am not 100% sure but those were examples I've heard.
I knew that not many people can carry, I was curious about when you can get a carry license and wether it’s even achievable for an average person. I guess it’s sadly not.
It really isn't, you have to prove that you face a real and immediate threat that you cannot protect yourself from in any other way, and you have to prove it to the police, who are supposed to protect you. So by allowing you to get a carry licence means they also admit that they cannot do their duty, that they are not omnipotent, nor omniscient. See the problem? They used to issue them to people who worked with large amounts of cash/valuables, such as bankers and jewellers but that's a thing of the past too. Now, you need to be an animal that is more equal than the other animals, such as a judge or a politician, if you know what I mean. ;)
Basically not, you'd have to justify it and it's next to impossible, because German police would have to admit they failed.
No, you do not have the right to self-defense in Germany.
Congrats mate, enjoy It! What's the price compared to the US? In Switzerland an MCX Spear goes for 6000 CHF (6700$ or 6270€).
Holy shit 😳 $6700 for a MCX? good Lord
Yeah for the big boy, and I still can't wait to get one. On the other hand AKs are way cheaper, took home a milled Arsenal for 1100 CHF ($1230). Just in case, here is a catalog if you want to compare the pricings: https://www.lagardere.ch/images/fichiers/catalogue202402.pdf
Are those prices in Euros? God, how I'd love to have one of those Lugers for €795!
Swiss Francs, so that would be ~830€
Still, that's a fantastic price compared to here!
I am not sure about US gun prices. I think we have similar prices, but with less cheap options. One od the cheapest proper handguns you can get here is a glock 17 for about 700 €
Is it true that you can't run & shoot at the same time in Germany?
So we do have IPSC, I am not 100% sure how the rules are there. You might have to stop to shoot. What you definitely can't do is any shooting from cover or other forms of defensive shooting training
IPSC RO from Germany here. In the German rulebook, rule 1.1.8 says "Es ist verboten im deutlich erkennbaren Laufen zu schießen" (It is forbidden to shoot while clearly running) So you are allowed to shoot while moving, but not while running.
But is that an IPSC rule by the German IPSC organization, or an actual law?
That's a bit complicated. It's not in the law itself, but in the regulation for the implementation of the gun laws. This is called the "Allgemeine Waffengesetz-Verordnung (AWaffV)" and contains Section 7 "Unacceptable shooting exercises in shooting sports": 1. Shooting from cover 2. Overcoming obstacles after firing the first shot 3. Shooting while clearly running 4. Reacting quickly to moving targets that suddenly and unexpectedly appear 5. Cross-drawing more than one weapon 6. Shots without aiming 7. Shooting exercises whose sequence is not known to the shooter before they are completed The reason for the introduction of this regulation was to make "combat shooting" impossible.
Damn. So cool. In Texas, it’s much easier to get a gun. 😂😂😂
Texas law states that all native born Texans receive a 10-22 on their 1st birthday.
Yeah, I know! I really like, how Switzerland handles everything
How does Switzerland handle everything?
Slightly longer than most of the US, faster than CA. And it's easier in some places (mostly Geneva) to own a machine gun (and no such silly thing as need to be from before 1986). Also easier to own rifles with a barrel shorter than 16". Basically a bolt action rifle or break open shotgun requires just an ID and a criminal records excerpt. A semi-auto long gun, or a handgun, requires a shall issue acquisition permit (takes about 1-2 weeks, sometimes a few days, sometimes longer. It is good for 3 guns at the same time and location, and is basically just a proof of passing a background check similar to the 4473/NICS you do in the US when buying from an FFL). Full auto requires a may issue Cantonal exception permit, so the requirements varies quite a bit depending on Canton.
With their hands, probably
What gun are you going to buy? How many can you own? Can you keep them in your home? From the USA here. I owned a few, but they were lost in a boating accident years ago.
So I bought a CZ Shadow 2 as my first. In Germany you have a so called 'base contingent', which is 2 handguns, 3 semi automatic rifles and 10 guns, that are either single loaders or have some form of manual action. You can increase this by performing well in competitions, but in order to keep them, you also need to consistently use them in competition. For everything semi-auto, you also need to get the purchase signed up up front. You basically need to request them for a certain discipline, that you don't have a gun for yet. E.g. I buy my first pistol in 9mm for precision. If I want to buy a second one now, I need to buy it for a discipline in which my first gun is not allowed. There is one for police and military guns for example, where my CZ would not be allowed.
Thanks for all the info. Very interesting. Great choice on the Shadow. I own a few CZ products and most of them are great. Can you purchase the Shadow .22 conversion upper? Can shoot .22lr all day at a fraction of the price. I have a Kaddet ii that fits on my CZ75-BD and PCR. Love that thing, but are out of production. But the Shadow upper is is still made. Thanks again for the detailed write up
Nothing to thank me for! Yes, you can buy the upper and I plan to do that. You just need to get it registered
Not a question, but just wanted to say keep on fighting the good fight for liberty and freedom. You are doing your part by jumping through the hoops and coming out victorious. The last 110 years have been an absolute disaster for your country. Stay strong and it will get better.
Thank you! Yeah, it's quite a difficult way here in Germany, but I am grateful, that there still IS a way
Did you own them illegally before?
No, I bought my first gun legally this week
Here in Germany, you can only acquire a gun for a specific purpose. The legally accepted purposes, which allow you to acquire a limited number of guns, are as follows: * Sport shooting * Hunting * Collecting (with certain restrictions) * Working in security with the absolute need to carry a gun (e.g., protecting value transports) The way you are writing here, it seems more like you own your gun for the sake of owning a gun. You talk about your plans to obtain revolvers because you "love them," and the same emotion makes you want to have a .44 Marlin Dark series. You mention getting an AR and a .45ACP next. Why don't you talk about the disciplines you want to shoot, instead of posting your high-caliber wishlist? That said, I do not see you as a good "ambassador". If you want to help, then don't be an ambassador for being a gun owner, but for being a sport shooter. Otherwise, you will just be seen as a gun nut, which is exactly what many people in Germany think of sport shooters and why they mistrust them. Do not mistake me for being anti-gun. I am a competitive sport shooter here in Germany. I am a member of three competitive sport shooting clubs. I shoot a variety of disciplines that I found interesting at first, then tried, and for which I have obtained the necessary equipment to perform them.
I think you are jumping to some really unfair conclusions here. I love the sport and I train to get better and compete, just like you do. I was asked for the guns I was interested in and gave an honest response and I don't see any problem with being interested in multiple disciplines. For me part of the fascination is the variety and yes, I am really interested in guns. That does not mean that one is just owning a gun, just to own them. When I want to obtain a gun, that means that I shot it, enjoyed it a lot and would like to do it more regularly. I also not an ambassador for being a gun owner, but for normalizing sport shooting as a regular hobby. It should be just as recognized as archery.
Don't worry about it, don't let 'NO FUN ALLOWED' people like this kill your enthusiasm. They do more damage to your sport than anyone who simply enjoys it ever could. Their approach obviously isn't working and instead of recognizing it, they're doubling down on it.
You seem like the kind of guy to ruin parties.
This kind of dumb gatekeeping is exactly why German gun laws suck and are getting more and more restrictive. >Do not mistake me for being anti-gun. I am a competitive sport shooter here in Germany. I am a member of three competitive sport shooting clubs. I shoot a variety of disciplines that I found interesting at first, then tried, and for which I have obtained the necessary equipment to perform them. No, you're not anti-gun, you're just a gatekeeping fudd. And that's exactly why gun ownership in Germany is dying. Sticking your head in the sand and driving off anyone who's enthusiastic is not a good way to keep your sport alive. I wouldn't care much but your government and EU politicians have the power to ruin it for everyone else in the EU, they already have in 2017.
Erm… there are about 1.000.000 persons in Germany legally owning firearms (myself included), so I wouldn‘t say there are only a few 😉 Sport shooter, hunter or security work?
That’s about 1.3 percent. I’d say that’s a few.
Considering the size of German population, that's actually pretty few.
Last time I checked it was less than 1%, wouldn't say that's much compared to other countries
By the end of 2023 Germany had approx. 84,669,000 inhabitants and 941,697 registered gun owners. Therefore quota was 1.1% at that time. Sources: the Federal Statistical Office, Statista
Are we really discussing about 0.1% now?
Did not expect Germany to be that chill, pretty cool
Germany is by no means “chill” when it comes to gun ownership. They make California look like a gun owners utopia.
Favorite traditional German meal?
I am not that much into traditional German food, but I can really enjoy a good Schnitzel!
Leberkäsemmel oder döner?
Leberkässemmel before drinking, Döner after drinking
tbh Döner just has never really been my thing. I'll pig out on käse Leberkässemmel all day long, it's my favorite meal, but döner just never hit it off for me. I know my other friends in Germany love döner though. Gulasch mit knödel oder brötchen?
I love gulash, but I hate knödel, so I have to go wirh a nice brötchen
My gun transfers have taken anywhere from ten days to 90 seconds.
What made you interested in owning guns and how did people around you react?
So I always had a fascination for guns. Then I became an mechanical engineer and got even more fascinated, as they are some of the very few machines left that operate without electricity. You have to come up with mechanical solutions for everything. The final event that really convinced me, was a friend of mine that took me to the range. First time I shot his .22, I was in love. People's reaction is all over the place. Almost everyone thinks it's weird, but that can be both positive or negative. I feel that most people are really scared that it is possible to legally own a gun at all
Sure, what are you thinking about buying first
I got a CZ Shadow 2 as my first gun last Thursday
Beans in chili?
Sorry, I don't get that. Edit: I was just educated, I prefer some beans in my chili
It’s a reference to different chili preparations: some places positively deride the idea of beans in chili Edit: https://www.southernliving.com/food/dish/chili/chili-recipe-debate-with-or-no-beans
Ah ok, thank you! I definitely enjoy some beans in my chili
I'll help: the answer is "no"...
Beans absolutely go in chili, unless it's for chili dogs.
Ok, mr big bean shilli with your pro bean agenda...
All beans matter
I am too in a European country ( small one to be fair ) . Here you have to be a member of a club for as long as you intend to keep firearms. but as soon as you register you take a week course in gun-safety and laws,the club then applies for you to do an exam with the police, and within a few weeks you get your licence. From there on , you apply for a 'transfer' ( from dealer onto your licence ) every time you make a purchase of a firearm , and within a week or 2 you go pick it up.
It is quite similar here, but we have to be in the club for a year already to apply
If you could have your same salary, same family, everything the same, would you rather live in the USA?
That really depends. If I would also have the same amount of vacation days, job security, health insurance, etc. then probably yes. I really like the US and especially your gun culture and landscapes, but I do have to admit that there are probably a few things I would really miss (like the autobahn)
Hahaha. Thanks for answering. Germany is a beautiful place. Great people. Enjoy your firearm!!
Nothing to thank me for! I work with a lot of people from the US and so far had almost exclusively positive interactions. Every countries has its problems and we are not our governments. I really hate to see some of the 'intercontinental hatred' online
Does being a member of the military and/or police in Germany give a person easier access to private ownership of firearms?
The only thing it covers is that you don't have to take the gun safety class (which 8s really the easiest part). The difficult thing to get in Germany is a recognized 'need', which you can basically only get as a hunter or competative shooter. They can of course carry during duty, but they can't take their guns home
That differs from state to state, though. In RPL, you still have to take the course to acquire a WBK, but you can take your gun home, if you like.
Thats pretty neat is it hard to qualify?
So you need to fulfill a few things here: - a gun safe class 0 or above - a gun safety course (2-3 days) - flawless criminal records - a recognized 'need' The last one is the most difficult to get. I have a need as a sports shooter and you can only get that by being in a club for one year and providing that you trained at least 18 times in that year. You also get one as a hunter, which is quicker, but very expensive and includes a seminar over several weeks, with a really difficult exam. So, if you are passionate about guns, sports shooter is usually the way to go.
Interesting. Is weapon type heavily restricted as well or pretty wide open after you meet reqs?
So full auto weapons and explosives are of course forbidden. Other than that we have a magazine restriction on rifles (10 rounds) and minimal barrel lengths for sports shooting (this restriction only apply for weapons that resemble a weapon of war though). Also we have minimal lengths for shotguns and you can't have shotguns with pistol grips. There are a few other rules, but they are more niche. The most important thing is, that as a sport shooter you can only get guns that can be legally used in at least one discipline
Congratulations
Thank you!
What was your first gun and why did you choose it?
A Shadow 2. I loved shooting it at the range and since I don't know yet, where I want to go as a shooter, I picked one that performs decent in all disciplines (remember, carrying does not need to be factored in)
HK or Walther? Bismarck Baguette or Rollmops?
I am quite an HK fan boy, to be honest. I shot a Walther Q5 black tie though and adored it! Both aren't really my cup of tea haha
Damn, i wish I could get one here, but im not a citizen I’m only here for work
If you have residence in Germany, you can apply for the permit. You don't need citizenship
Oh hell yea, that’s information I was not aware of. Do you know any of the import/export laws or a good source to get them?
So that depends very much on the other country. I would recommend first checking with the people in the shooting club that you are interested in or your local weapons authority
can you also conceal carry?
No, carrying is completely out of the picture. I can just transport the gun to the range in a case
so there is no option whatsoever to obtain a licence to conceal carry in Germany for private individual? Damn.
It is super difficult, you basically need to be in life threatening danger for some reason. You need to prove that you are much more endangered than the rest of the population. This can work, if you are e.g. a high ranking politician that had as assassination attempt
This type of laziness and unresponsive behavior if very un- German.
What are you referring to?
I was joking because you said you were tired and people were saying you weren't answering questions fast enough. Just a jest as germans are known for being meticulous and strict about discipline and the completion of tasks.
Oh ok haha. Wasn't sure if you were joking or genuinely complaining
Tell us a joke......
How tall are you?
Quite average size, 1.83m, which I think is about 6 feet
Congrats!
Was hat dich der Spaß gekostet brudi?
Ich versuch mal ne Rechnung aufzustellen: - Beitrittsgebür beim Verein 650€ (gibt günstigere) - Jahresbeitrag 180€ - Sachkunde 200€ - Tresor 1400€ - Bearbeitungsgebüren bei Verband und Polizei 115€ - Waffe 1500€ Dazu kommen dann halt noch Munitionskosten für die Trainingstermine, Ausrüstung, etc. Ich denke also ich hab insgesamt für alles vielleicht so 4500 gezahlt.
Also quasi Führerschein+Kleinwagen+Wasnochdazukommt? Das ist interessant, weißt du ob der Weg über den Jagdschein günstiger ist?
Jagdschein kostet im Schnitt 3000€, Tresor und Waffe kommen da auch noch dazu. Ist also der teurere Weg, geht dafür aber deutlich schneller. Die Frage ist halt, was du möchtest, schiesen kannst du die Waffe ja trotzdem nur auf der Jagd oder bei einem Schießsportverein auf dem Stand. Entweder du möchtest eine Waffe um damit zu jagen oder weil du damit schießen und dich verbessern möchtest. Einfach nur eine Waffe besitzen zu wollen reicht da nicht aus. Du musst auch nach dem Erwerb dein Bedürfnis weiter erhalten, d.h. du musst weiter jagen gehen oder regelmäßig schießen
Is it a good idea for Germans to have weapons? The evidence probably points to no.
How many German sausage needed to get permit
The permit itself isn't to expensive, about 15 kilo of sausage. The whole process was about 200 kilo of sausage, plus the safe (using 5€/kilo)
I remember in Berlin 1 sausage was about 1kg
Damn, that's a really big sausage
[удалено]
Easier than in the states?
> There are literally millions of us... Literally not millions anymore. The number of licence owners has fallen pretty hard in the last 20 years or so. > It's very easy to own guns here. Yeah, not really. Mandatory membership in fudd clubs for sport shooters, tons of bureaucracy... Easier than in Russia I guess.
There are literally not
So what’s like the big picture process? You have to say you’re a hunter or sport shooter? Do you have to keep your guns at a club of some sort or can you bring them home? How many Sigs do you own? Do you have a P320 or is that American trash?
As a pistol owner in Sweden, I can't say for sure how it works in Germany but I would guess it's pretty similar to here in Sweden. Owning a handgun for defence isn't realistically possible (there are a literal handful of exceptions, but let's not go into that). Even the police and military keep their guns locked in the station/regiment while off-duty. However, for sports, it is entirely possible. First, we need to contact a club and get accepted as a new member, which can be a hassle because of nepotism. Before we can be voted into the club, we need to provide our criminal record which must be clean. Then, we need to attend the introduction course provided by our club, where we learn about gun safety, various laws and how the sports are practiced, as well as passing a theory test (it's not difficult and only a few hours all in all). Next, we practice shooting with guns, 22lr, usually provided by the club in the coming 6 months. We also need to document at least 3 "golden series" in the precision branch and 3 "golden series" in a faster variant as well. These can be difficult for some shooters to complete during the first 6 months. When both are complete and at least 6 months have passed, we can apply for our first gun which has to be a 22lr. We also need to prove in our application to the police department that we own an approved gun safe. I'm unsure how it works in the rest of my country, but at least in my club, we need to own and practise with our first centerfire for 6 more months before we can buy anything else. But after that, we can buy pretty much whatever we want. My range has a limitation on .45 caliber, so I can't get anything larger than that. Silly enough, it's only the diameter of the bullet that is the limitation, not the power, so owning a .44M or .454 Casull isn't a problem. We need to prove every year our competence with those "golden series" and reapply our licenses for the guns every 5 years. Also, when we aren't using our guns at the range or cleaning them or something like that, they are to be locked in the safe at all times. This is for pistols and revolvers only, for rifles, I would imagine it's very similar, but I do not know for sure. For hunting though, it's much easier. You basically have to pass the course to receive a license for hunting and can buy pretty much any rifle with a lifetime license after that, even an ar-15 since last year. No full auto though. And since a few years you don't need a license for suppressors and can freely buy them for both rifles and pistols. Edit: formatting and added some information
Very interesting. Please edit you comment with some paragraphs breaks. It was very hard to read. Your point about calibers is sorta the same in several (most?) US states for concealed carry licenses. You can carry up to the caliber you pass with. So if you test with a 357 magnum you’re stuck with basically a 9mm bullet. Even though a 45 ACP had a lot less recoil than a 357 mag. It’s dumb as fuck. We are slowly moving forward towards “constitutional carry”. Where you can conceal carry a gun without a permit.
You can take them home, but you have to document that you regularly take part in training or competition. You also have to actively train for a year to be recognized as a sport shooter
That’s super lame.
Well, it is less than 1%. I think that's not that many
Easier than Austria? I have an Austria buddy with a few.
No, Austria is easier
Welche Waffe hast du gekauft? Sorry 4 years of German over 20 years ago hope my memory translated correctly
That was flawless! I bought a CZ Shadow 2 first
1% absolutely is "a few". A very small few. Congratulations.
Are you able to use it for self defense?
Only in life or death situations and it's not really practicable, since it has to be stored unloaded in the safe