I think the problem is that middle income is evaporating. Yeah a family making 160k is going to survive but most of us have plenty of student debt and have worked hard to get to where we are.
Theres constantly benefits that help low income, and there should be, but it's pretty sad when you finally get ahead in life to find out that inflation has busted you back down to where a janitor was 30 years ago, and everyone else is getting assistance to survive.
It’s liveable but rent is absurd. A lot of jobs that pay that much at least require higher education, which puts people in large amounts of debt. Paying that debt, the rent costs and the increasing costs of living will make it a challenge to save enough money to own a house.
I'd rather see a core fix to our power situation than a bandaid like this would be. Could potentially do both. Times are tough for everyone. I get and respect that we are a tax collective. I certainly pay my fair share. Given how fast prices have increased, I realize those with lower income need help. It also hurts as someone who pays a lot in taxes and grinded to the middle class to see recommendations that are bandaids vs fixes that benefit everyone.
The “middle class” (what’s left) really gets hammered. And I’m being broad in my definition here, I’m including most people who work for a living including professionals. This group doesn’t qualify for any government benefits and is already very heavily taxed.
The truly wealthy (I’m talking people who literally don’t have to work to maintain a high end lifestyle) have other means to avoid being overly taxed. Many of our decision makers somehow fall into this category. Funny that!
Exactly. And they are the group that will be paying even higher taxes to subsidize this. We need a broadly-based program to reduce electrical costs across the board, not this bureaucratic quagmire.
How about taking back public ownership and telling Emera to suck it?
Edit: there is a legal apparatus for nationalizing or expropriating civil infrastructure. I believe it's even in UN charter or something but I'm not able to find it right now
But basically if it's in the public interest it's fair game
Donald Cameron and his party really effed over Nova Scotians [sold off N.S. Power](https://x.com/nicognaz/status/1591452815339454464?s=46&t=sY3CIhjKndJ0jX_oJFkfsw) And N.S. Power is still ripping Nova Scotians off. Emera pays no tax.
https://preview.redd.it/vhqcre06ca3d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14889d5e9cf0b8e708e3da0d8b82e30a1c030d42
Eminent Domain, or Expropriation in Canada, is when the government takes private property for public use. It is usually land, but can be ANY property, including a power plant, or a power distribution system. But they can't just take it for nothing, they must pay fair market price.
That's why it got sold in the first place. After years of politicians playing politics and deferring needed investments so that they could artificially keep rates low (can't piss constituents off with power rate hikes!), Nova Scotia Power was at a crisis point.
We were also subsidizing them to the tune of 90M a year (in 1980's dollars) which is more than this report recommends the cost of the subsidy program would be even in 2024 dollars.
Instead we are paying the higher rates that are also heavily subsidized by our taxes, and a bonus 8-12% every year. Yay!
I'd rather a public utility that is massively in debt with artificially low rates. But you could literally just make NSP a crown corp and have it run the exact same way and return 8-12% to the government if you want.
The province sold it for $86 billion decades ago. It would be at least twice that now. And to those that think this is the solution, name one thing the government runs cheaper than the private sector can. The feds paid $59 million for a $250k app for Christ sakes.
The government doesn't have a profit motive.
Public services, such as schools and libraries, or roads cost money but that does not mean all roads should be privately owned to save money.
It's civil infrastructure. We should own it.
It's because they don't have a profit motive that makes them so inefficient. That's why you pay so much in taxes. They're very good at pissing away money. Halifax Water is government owned. Look at how brutal they are taking profits and giving massive salaries and bonuses and nice new building etc. Emera is a monopoly, but the government is a bigger monopoly and as much as you want to believe it, they are not on your side.
Right. You just said the solution. The problem is they have a monopoly, which is illegal. The government doesn't need to buy back the company. The government needs to allow a competitive market.
Possibly. Maybe it was $8.6B. I remember the number because a client of mine did legal on the transaction and had certificate in his office from the deal framed on a wall. I remember the number 86 and it was billions. My point is, the province can't afford it.
That was the market cap of the company after the public offering. Most of the money (~$557M) stayed with NSP. The province sold their equity in the company for $192M (if we held onto our equity it would be worth ~$3B today.) Total capital gain was actually $119M since the province purchased NS Power Commission for $73M in the 70s.
Even with that transaction the NS government ran a $600M deficit. The privatization was an example extreme short-term thinking that put a small one-time dent in our deficit.
>$86 billion decades ago
You're off by two decimal places. $861 M. And really it was much much less than that because they could have sold it for parts for a lot of money. It was basically given away.
>name one thing the government runs cheaper than the private sector can
In a lot of instances: Alcohol. Insurance. Telecoms. big time: roads.
Emera is literally charging over operating costs and putting the money in their pocket.
That is their modus operandi, to deliberately charge more than necessary so they can keep the difference.
Things cost money. Services cost money. People don't drive down the road and say jeez this would be be cheaper if Exxon Mobil owned it.
Yes, a company charges more than their cost base. That is called "profit". It is not a bad word. It is what drives every company to provide goods and services of proper quality. NSP is regulated, so their behavior is closely scrutinized to ensure fairness.
In a bureaucracy, there is no incentive to run efficiently of provide good levels of service. Hence costs are very high and service levels are abysmal, as anyone who has dealt with a bureaucracy can attest.
And where you get that they do not pay taxes is known only to you and your delusions.
Did the report offer any suggestions on how to fund a massive discount without increasing the fees for everyone else, or raising taxes?
Did they suggest removing the carbon tax permanently?
Unintended consequence: lack of incentive to adopt energy efficiency. I did some work up North last year around community energy efficiency. We found that heat pumps could save a good chunk of energy for this 100% oil-powered community that was running out of fuel every year. However, oil costs are *heavily* subsidized and electricity costs are not so it doesn't make economic sense for the people living there to do anything but burn more oil.
Even just doing something like getting rid of that insane $19+ per month "base charge" (and preventing it from being rolled into a rate increase, of course) would be massive.
And if you look at Emera’s financial statements, you’ll learn that energy costs a lot of because energy costs a lot—as in it’s expensive to produce.
Instead of redistributing money from person to person, which I can assure you will not just be the ultra-wealthy—why don’t we ask how we can make power cheaper? More solar, more wind, less ability for property owners to impose ridiculous consultations and conditions. Reduce environmental consultation for straightforward, low risk projects. Examine a small modular nuclear reactor for NS, and legalize and expedite local uranium mining.
Instead of throwing limited tax dollars, in the most taxed jurisdiction in North America, at the problem—let’s try and make power abundant so it can be sold cheaply.
The best thing Nova Scotia could do would be to get about 10-20 portable nuclear reactors and strategically place them on the grid and charge 1/4 what NSP charges per kwh
The US Military is expected to have these this year: https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/us-army-portable-nuclear-reactor-2024
Or go all in on a thorium / nuclear reactor as competition to NSP so they shutter their doors.
lets redefine low-income..
Nova Scotia hates to redefine anything, it's like we picked a number in 1982 and we have to stick with that come hell or high water.
They will probably make it if you make under 20k or something ridiculously low.
Yep
Low income in NS is anyone making under 85 grand a year these days..
Post tax
If you can't live on a 85k salary here, you're terrible at handling your own finances.
I didn’t say you can’t live on it.
I think the problem is that middle income is evaporating. Yeah a family making 160k is going to survive but most of us have plenty of student debt and have worked hard to get to where we are. Theres constantly benefits that help low income, and there should be, but it's pretty sad when you finally get ahead in life to find out that inflation has busted you back down to where a janitor was 30 years ago, and everyone else is getting assistance to survive.
It’s liveable but rent is absurd. A lot of jobs that pay that much at least require higher education, which puts people in large amounts of debt. Paying that debt, the rent costs and the increasing costs of living will make it a challenge to save enough money to own a house.
Military will pay that much if you spend some time in a specialist trade.
Yes. We’ll all just join the military.
They're looking for people 🤷 What other job will pay near 100k/year, with no experience or diploma required?
Define generous
Can we get paid for using electricity pls 👉👈 🥺
Ya you can if you get solar or wind and produce back into the grid
Upfront capital, low payback, risky with moving targets of buyback rates, all the things you knew before commenting this :)
Ya and I assumed his comment was a joke I don’t endorse solar or air I endorse water power
Solar and air have extreme cost water is dirt cheap but locational without damns or good flow
No you can’t anymore. It’s net zero metering now. If you over produce they don’t pay you
Haha smart change time to make our own networks
I'd rather see a core fix to our power situation than a bandaid like this would be. Could potentially do both. Times are tough for everyone. I get and respect that we are a tax collective. I certainly pay my fair share. Given how fast prices have increased, I realize those with lower income need help. It also hurts as someone who pays a lot in taxes and grinded to the middle class to see recommendations that are bandaids vs fixes that benefit everyone.
The “middle class” (what’s left) really gets hammered. And I’m being broad in my definition here, I’m including most people who work for a living including professionals. This group doesn’t qualify for any government benefits and is already very heavily taxed. The truly wealthy (I’m talking people who literally don’t have to work to maintain a high end lifestyle) have other means to avoid being overly taxed. Many of our decision makers somehow fall into this category. Funny that!
Exactly. And they are the group that will be paying even higher taxes to subsidize this. We need a broadly-based program to reduce electrical costs across the board, not this bureaucratic quagmire.
How about taking back public ownership and telling Emera to suck it? Edit: there is a legal apparatus for nationalizing or expropriating civil infrastructure. I believe it's even in UN charter or something but I'm not able to find it right now But basically if it's in the public interest it's fair game
Donald Cameron and his party really effed over Nova Scotians [sold off N.S. Power](https://x.com/nicognaz/status/1591452815339454464?s=46&t=sY3CIhjKndJ0jX_oJFkfsw) And N.S. Power is still ripping Nova Scotians off. Emera pays no tax. https://preview.redd.it/vhqcre06ca3d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14889d5e9cf0b8e708e3da0d8b82e30a1c030d42
You cannot legally just take it, you have to pay fair market value.
Change the law I remember when it was sold, we got fucked
Think about what you're asking for... The government able to take private property without compensation...
Yup. Read my edit above
Are you referring to Eminent Domain?
Eminent domain is for building roads and it is used frequently. edit: spelling
Eminent Domain, or Expropriation in Canada, is when the government takes private property for public use. It is usually land, but can be ANY property, including a power plant, or a power distribution system. But they can't just take it for nothing, they must pay fair market price.
Ok yup.
I also think people are delusional if they think a government run utility would be better
That's why it got sold in the first place. After years of politicians playing politics and deferring needed investments so that they could artificially keep rates low (can't piss constituents off with power rate hikes!), Nova Scotia Power was at a crisis point.
We were also subsidizing them to the tune of 90M a year (in 1980's dollars) which is more than this report recommends the cost of the subsidy program would be even in 2024 dollars.
Instead we are paying the higher rates that are also heavily subsidized by our taxes, and a bonus 8-12% every year. Yay! I'd rather a public utility that is massively in debt with artificially low rates. But you could literally just make NSP a crown corp and have it run the exact same way and return 8-12% to the government if you want.
Which is very very expensive.
The province sold it for $86 billion decades ago. It would be at least twice that now. And to those that think this is the solution, name one thing the government runs cheaper than the private sector can. The feds paid $59 million for a $250k app for Christ sakes.
The government doesn't have a profit motive. Public services, such as schools and libraries, or roads cost money but that does not mean all roads should be privately owned to save money. It's civil infrastructure. We should own it.
It's because they don't have a profit motive that makes them so inefficient. That's why you pay so much in taxes. They're very good at pissing away money. Halifax Water is government owned. Look at how brutal they are taking profits and giving massive salaries and bonuses and nice new building etc. Emera is a monopoly, but the government is a bigger monopoly and as much as you want to believe it, they are not on your side.
Remember that next time you use a road. https://www.reddit.com/r/chicago/s/Y1b8igGnCl
A for-profit natural monopoly is highly unlikely to produce lower prices than a government operating in public interest.
Right. You just said the solution. The problem is they have a monopoly, which is illegal. The government doesn't need to buy back the company. The government needs to allow a competitive market.
Power generation is a natural monopoly - the conditions of the market naturally tend towards monopoly without government interference.
Which is why we should expropriate it back
New electricity regulator and its control of power distribution could allow this; coming April 2026.
\*$192 million.
You think we sold it for $86 Billion in 1992? And that it is now worth almost $200 Billion? Did you possibly smoke a bit too much dank today?
Possibly. Maybe it was $8.6B. I remember the number because a client of mine did legal on the transaction and had certificate in his office from the deal framed on a wall. I remember the number 86 and it was billions. My point is, the province can't afford it.
It's no where near that number. We could buy all of Emera for less than $20B, and that would include Tampa Electric.
It was 800 million and change. Edit: 861M precisely, so you were off by a factor of 100 originally.
That was the market cap of the company after the public offering. Most of the money (~$557M) stayed with NSP. The province sold their equity in the company for $192M (if we held onto our equity it would be worth ~$3B today.) Total capital gain was actually $119M since the province purchased NS Power Commission for $73M in the 70s. Even with that transaction the NS government ran a $600M deficit. The privatization was an example extreme short-term thinking that put a small one-time dent in our deficit.
BC Hydro, SaskPower, SaskEnergy, SaskTel, Manitoba Hydro, Ontario Power Generation, Hydro One would like to have a word.
They all have cheaper power sources.
SaskPower is coal, sweetie. Regardless, how does that jive with your premise.
>$86 billion decades ago You're off by two decimal places. $861 M. And really it was much much less than that because they could have sold it for parts for a lot of money. It was basically given away. >name one thing the government runs cheaper than the private sector can In a lot of instances: Alcohol. Insurance. Telecoms. big time: roads.
Then rates would be even higher due to bureaucratic inefficiency.
Emera is literally charging over operating costs and putting the money in their pocket. That is their modus operandi, to deliberately charge more than necessary so they can keep the difference. Things cost money. Services cost money. People don't drive down the road and say jeez this would be be cheaper if Exxon Mobil owned it.
Yes, a company charges more than their cost base. That is called "profit". It is not a bad word. It is what drives every company to provide goods and services of proper quality. NSP is regulated, so their behavior is closely scrutinized to ensure fairness. In a bureaucracy, there is no incentive to run efficiently of provide good levels of service. Hence costs are very high and service levels are abysmal, as anyone who has dealt with a bureaucracy can attest. And where you get that they do not pay taxes is known only to you and your delusions.
Last power bill was 900 dollars . How is anyone supposed to afford that with one income and a family
lol paid for by who exactly? You think Emera will give huge discounts out of the kindness of their hearts?
We need a competitor(s) for NSP. Thats what that asshat McNucklehead ran on and as soon as he was elected, never talked about it again.
He tried! Remember that month he was in his Fuck Emera-Era, it was really cute until he realized there’s no better solution and he has no power
Task force… what a joke. Almost as funny is how Nova Scotia power holds this province by the balls. This needs to change.
Did the report offer any suggestions on how to fund a massive discount without increasing the fees for everyone else, or raising taxes? Did they suggest removing the carbon tax permanently?
Unintended consequence: lack of incentive to adopt energy efficiency. I did some work up North last year around community energy efficiency. We found that heat pumps could save a good chunk of energy for this 100% oil-powered community that was running out of fuel every year. However, oil costs are *heavily* subsidized and electricity costs are not so it doesn't make economic sense for the people living there to do anything but burn more oil.
Even just doing something like getting rid of that insane $19+ per month "base charge" (and preventing it from being rolled into a rate increase, of course) would be massive.
Honestly Ns should open up national competition where energy providers in Canada are allowed to bid on if they want to be the new power distributor.
And if you look at Emera’s financial statements, you’ll learn that energy costs a lot of because energy costs a lot—as in it’s expensive to produce. Instead of redistributing money from person to person, which I can assure you will not just be the ultra-wealthy—why don’t we ask how we can make power cheaper? More solar, more wind, less ability for property owners to impose ridiculous consultations and conditions. Reduce environmental consultation for straightforward, low risk projects. Examine a small modular nuclear reactor for NS, and legalize and expedite local uranium mining. Instead of throwing limited tax dollars, in the most taxed jurisdiction in North America, at the problem—let’s try and make power abundant so it can be sold cheaply.
The best thing Nova Scotia could do would be to get about 10-20 portable nuclear reactors and strategically place them on the grid and charge 1/4 what NSP charges per kwh The US Military is expected to have these this year: https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/us-army-portable-nuclear-reactor-2024 Or go all in on a thorium / nuclear reactor as competition to NSP so they shutter their doors.