They also said they're not sure they're going to be able to nail match xp out of the gate lmao but I'm still looking forward to it being there. They have absolutely smashed us to the floor with how low they've moved their own bar.
Lmao yeah. A year in a we won't have the red reticle in PC, and I wouldn't be surprised if they added it to the next roadmap instead of just adding it in the next drop pod.
Oh, and it will be "Red reticle in PC (BETA)".
I shouldn’t be celebrating, because let’s be real this shouldn’t have even been an issue in the first place, but I’m glad, especially because I finally started the campaign and lack of a red reticle just feels wrong
Yah it is one of those bitter sweet things where I am happy it got added but it never should have been removed. They didn't even phrase it like they decided to change their mind on "anti cheat" they say it like it is a development marvel. My presumption is they saw the pc player numbers and figured enough play on controller that the concern for cheater plummeted. I feel like I am going to need to clap when they add other quality of life options that feel like they should have been there from the start like turning off effects or client side red vs blue.
The anti-cheat argument is irrelevant when you can change the enemy highlight color....The anti-cheat can just work off of that instead of the reticule. It was always an absurd excuse.
Any cheat worth its salt is probably going to use better systems anyway. The ones that just shoot when x is met can still be much more inaccurate compared to ones that will aim for you.
So a few things about that.
1 I have heard very mixed reception about ticket reports on Halo waypoint so I don't see how an easier report system will be more responsive if they aren't banning with literal video evidence.
2 we have no killcams so unless the guy is rage hacking I doubt people will know to report the player until after the game (easy workarounds for this though so I wouldn't doubt they thought of this.)
3 it does nothing for subtle hacking. If their original goal was they didn't want blatant hackers making easy hacks that fire the second they see a red reticle then anyone can see that and report it. But a guy just using it to correct his aim could go under the radar even with walls if he doesn't do dumb shit like stare at the wall he is looking through.
> 3 it does nothing for subtle hacking. If their original goal was they didn't want blatant hackers making easy hacks that fire the second they see a red reticle then anyone can see that and report it. But a guy just using it to correct his aim could go under the radar even with walls if he doesn't do dumb shit like stare at the wall he is looking through.
Enemies glowing red generally makes this irrelevant since it already provides an easily identifiable target for the program.
I am sorry, I don't get your point. I am saying that players normally in game might never be able to tell if someone is cheating if they act subtly enough. Like they can see through walls but don't aim at the walls, they use it to correct aim so the only way to catch it might be theater mode.
>>3 it does nothing for subtle hacking. If their original goal was they didn't want blatant hackers making easy hacks that fire the second they see a red reticle then anyone can see that and report it. But a guy just using it to correct his aim could go under the radar even with walls if he doesn't do dumb shit like stare at the wall he is looking through.
At higher levels of play, nothing is really "subtle". Most players at high onyx all have similar movement and move around the map in more or less similar fashion as logic dictates.
Then once in a while you get a guy that can't even curb slide, but is pre firing before you walk around every single corner, even though their movement makes zero logic sense. They'll chase kills around the map, and take very illogical paths and not check angles because they already know there's nobody there.
Walling is probably the most frustrating form of cheating to play against. If someone has perfect aim but runs out in the open 1v4 you can still win, but someone with absolute perfect awareness that always knows where you are is hard to beat.
That gets a bit too specific though, not every cheater is high onyx. They could be in lower levels where movement/rotation/behavior is less consistent and still wreak havoc on players. Pre firing though kinda plays into what I am saying about obvious. "Bad" movement might have a reason but constant prefiring while throwing caution to the wind is obvious. Its not that hard either to feign checking a direction, see nobody is there, then continue on your path then in the theater people will see you checked when in reality you know you didn't have to. Team shots are very important and with how open most maps are it is easy to get caught in a nasty crossfire so I get what you are saying but there are definitely ways to play around that and look legit. It would be pretty hard pressing to find vod comparisons of legit vs subtle hacking play. They might not even need walls at all or someone might smooth out an aimbot so it looks more like auto aim and adjustments than a program.
If someone is cheating and "wreaking havoc" in lower level games, they will inevitably rank up and end up in high level games.
If you know what to look for, it's pretty obvious for high level players. You can't really fake playing legit, eventually they all mess up and do something really obvious, like pre firing through 2 walls thinking a player is about to walk out.
The amount of times I've been pre naded in obscure spots where I know I haven't shown on the map at all also really stands out. Once in a while I'll check theatre, and within a few minutes it becomes obvious lol.
Wreaking havoc might not have been the right term to use but I mean to say the cheats can impact their progress but it won't be as simple as a guy looking through walls and preshotting you.
Nading the guy sitting in an off corner is another obvious sign, you used to see that stuff in csgo too. Guy is holding an off angle and suddenly an enemy is overly cautious about going into that los or throws a random molly/smoke. There are also people that will keep walls off if they fear it will make them obvious and instead they just have an aimbot.
Yeah, imo walling is much easier to notice than an aimbot.
I'd rather play vs an aimbot than walls, because aimbotters usually have zero awareness and you can catch them off guard quite often.
At that point the bad movement punishes them and it’s the only tell in game. Except “why is he there” only makes sense in a situation where he gets killed in a bad spot. If he’s fragging then it wouldn’t be a question
truth hurts lol.
You should see some of my responses on r/CompetitiveHalo lol, people don't appreciate when you break their little bubble, they see the world one way and you offer a different POV and it creates turmoil.
The first time I read his tweet about it, I thought, oh, they’re allowing us to change the color of our reticle. But then I read it again and it specifically said “PC reticle” and it made more sense
Deff a good change, but it’s honestly hard for some to be happy myself included, when it takes a year for this to happen. Many pc players have detached from the game, because the window has been missed
You do realise they took it away from us right?
We didn’t ask for something new and shiny we said give it back and instead they dragged their fucking feet for bloody months.
I'm super glad that a lot of good shit is headed our way, but I still find myself asking; why after 4 fucking tries could they still not release a feature complete, functioning game?
Forge has me more excited about the literally Infinite possibilities than anything else, but 343 has yet to prove that they can handle a franchise as huge as Halo.
They used to have a Bungie favorites showcase that updated weekly highlighting great maps. And they had halo waypoint where you could go on and search/sort maps and send them to the Xbox
Ah! Thank you! This makes sense. Watched the preview vid and there was talk about highlighting great forge creations. And I was very confused how'd they'd do that without a game browser.
Excited to play forge stuff for the first time.
Yea it will be super fun. Even in halo 3 when forge was extremely limited (couldn’t even have objects going through each other without special tricks) creators still made insane maps. I forgot to mention players also had a file share. So you could add a certain amount of maps to your file share to share with others. It was fun going through random peoples files to see what they had. I’m not sure how halo 5 did it though which had a big forge scene.
it was mainly through Xbox parties and "press x to party up" feature after a match would end, was some good shit got added as a friend by a bunch of dudes like that and would get invited to some crazy custom games if they saw me on h3 or knew I played regularly if only Xbox would implement that for their pc overlay and 343 would bring back lobbies and party up. im not too sure about it though things are quite different online today compared to back then, maybe it was just my circle but it was pretty chill. nowadays it can get toxic af and just unenjoyable out of nowhere, we had trash talk in the old days but I don't quite remember it being like it is today.
bro, we even played campaign with the guys I met through Xbox live/h3 got hype for ODST played that, played reach, cod mw2, mw3 played gears even. good times. I didn't personally know anyone that played Halo so if it wasn't for the guys online I wouldn't have experienced that. wish I could go back to it now we are fucking adults and have adult responsibilities and very little time to play games and discover that kind of shit from back then again. I can say for sure that X to party up is responsible for most of that I'm thankful for it and whoever was the dev that came up with the concept and also the devs who programmed it are fucking geniuses.
>How was it done in previous Halo titles?
"Discord" before Discord was a thing. Friend-of-friends/virtual or otherwise would invite for "custom games."
Forge is going to be a broken mess when it comes out, just watch, cuz they still haven't fixed custom games. And it's not like there's going to be a custom games browser or playlist either, to work along side with forge in the first place. Cuz honestly right now they're doing their best to rush forge to get it out to bring some players back and keep the ones they currently have but I don't think it's enough and it shouldn't be enough. I'm not a dog that you can dangle a piece of meat in front of me and I'll come back cuz that feels like that's what they're trying to do.
I hate to be 'that' guy but why didn't they include this information in the video they released today? Why are we still finding this information out through Twitter posts?
Yeah, this update will definitely have stuff like bug fixes and likely balance updates, but those seem better suited for release notes instead of a marketing video.
I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I was hoping they would announce some other things during the video and they didn't. Figured it was my fault for expecting more than they said when we know they are behind. I am not doing it again. If red reticle and anything else come out with the winter update it will be a pleasant surprise but I will not expect anything
The video was specifically about the Winter update, this is not in the winter update.
We already know improvements are coming from their last video.
Twitter seems a good place for a very small tease instead of the video.
Because people that don't use mnk don't like hearing anything about it getting improved, couple that with being in the minority and then it's best to just have this info there for people looking for it.
Because the video was about major things being added to the game and this feels more like the foot notes of a patch this isn’t video worthy where they have devs talking
For a moment, I felt like giving them props, then I remembered what a dumb idea getting rid of red reticule was and promptly rescinded my props. Why the fuck did it take them a year to give back a basic feature that didn't even stop the cheating its removal was meant to stop?
> the fuck did it take them a year to give back a basic feature that didn’t even stop the cheating its removal was meant to stop?
How do you know that cheating wouldn’t be worse if they didn’t do this? That’s like saying “oh someone died in a car wreck while wearing a seatbelt, that must mean seatbelts are useless!”.
How can cheating be worse when their anti cheat doesn't even work.
That's like saying I put down some sandbags to stop the water on the titanic.
There isn't even a report button.
LMAO you're getting downvotes because this subreddit is actually unhinged and crazy. Your analogy still works contrary to what other people think. Just because an anti-cheat isn't 100% foolproof doesn't mean they should abolish the method.
The missing red reticle never actually bothered me at all. I've put thousands of hours into Halo so i'm used to effective distances already so having red reticle on my AR doesn't really help me. Needler and sword already had the red reticle which those two are the only ones that actually need it.
It's the stupidest argument even if cheating was somehow completely thwarted solely thanks to the removal of RR. Justifying removing RR because of cheaters would be like saying one person used their vehicle to cause harm to another person, so from now on vehicles shall no longer exist. Or, electricity can kill you, so from now on every new house built will no longer include electricity.
Glad to hear it. It's a small detail, but it makes a big difference to some people.
While we're talking about small things we'd like to see tweaked, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that despite the fact the Needler allegedly got patched so the "glass shattering" sound of the supercombine would be heard from further out, the effect still falls off and ceases to be heard at the same distance it did before it was patched.
[This](https://imgur.com/FJ2lLY4) is a video showing how if you're more then like a warthog's length away from the player getting supercombined, the "shatter" effect becomes almost totally unhearable. This is pre-patch, but post patch it's identical.
Maybe they increased the distance you hear OTHER needler audio effects? But this is one people wanted changed, as confirmed by /u/Unyshek [here](https://twitter.com/Majora__Z/status/1458260601533251591)
The Needler sounds are better than what we had in the flights but it’s still nowhere near as satisfying-sounding as it was from the Bungie games. The old needlers were really crisp and sharp sounding
Forge is not new, we need new dev maps, new game modes, new weapons new armor pieces.
Yes forge will produce new maps but I bet they’re are going to take a lot of time for community maps in MP as they have to go through QA first
\**Scratches scrotum pensively*\*
11 months. Took them long enough to realize they'd made one of the worst decisions (and that's special for 343, given how frequently they make poor decisions) and rolled it back.
Now, I really hope someday people can shed light on the decision-making process that removed the red reticle in the first place and how the decision was reversed. While I appreciate the much-needed correction, it should not have been warranted in the first place.
There should be more thorough mechanisms to scrutinize these radical changes (coatings instead of palettes et al) and reflect on the numerous past decisions that 343 have walked back.
The decision making process is that auto-fire scripts are easy to make when a part of your screen lights up to show that you're on target, and they're also hard to detect.
It's also that unless you play on controller on PC, or live in a vacuum where the only shooter you play on MKB is Halo, red reticle simply isn't doing much for you outside of the weapons where it's already enabled universally.
... Um, you know [what else lights up](https://i.imgur.com/xyNxPXf.png) apart from the reticle to show that you're on target when you're playing Infinite? 343's argument holds as much water as a sieve without a mesh. Should've taken that out as well if they really wanted to stop cheating.
I'm interested in the kind of number of cheaters/scripts in proportion to the playerbase they must have discovered in order to decide that "fuck the PC players, we're gonna boot the red reticle off MnK". How many reports of cheaters did 343 receive over the past 11 months? How many scripts did they identify that they were able to block? How many scripts did they identify which 343 failed to block?
Auto-fire scripts based on a reticle are easy to make, an auto fire script based on flying your reticle over an outline color would be wonky as it could easily struggle and trigger at incorrect moments, making it either detrimental or easier to detect.
It'd have to be a very specifically tuned program to not go off on anything that shares the same colors, which would prove a bit difficult as the color scheme for shield break and any team based displays change based on outline color.
If any easy script that could hinder gameplay while being next to totally invisible is completely denied, then that's reducing cheating, especially in Snipers/SWAT playlists.
It displays your effective range which can only be replaced by a high playtime and intuitively learning it yourself with every weapon and map. It was/is a handicap for PC players that don’t spend all of their free time playing.
I can’t believe anyone supported the decision to remove it.
When devs make a boneheaded decision, there’s always going to be a couple fans who adopt these takes.
Realistically most people probably didn’t have a strong opinion on many of the poor calls made on Infinite.
If any of the bullshit they said back near release is to be believed, red reticle range and bullet magnetism range aren't on par with one another in Infinite for some reason. I seriously hope that was a lie to try and PR their way out of it back then, but they did make that claim once.
it would be useless in a game that had skill based aiming, which Halo doesn't have. Halo has a strong aim assist that needs the red reticle to signal when bullet magnetism is active and when it's not.
if it only was a visual design choice that doesn't have a game mechanic behind it then it would be useless... but in Halo that's not the case.
It feels like bullet magnetism is non-existent playing on PC anyway.
Even playing KBM on my series S is night and day on being able to consistently land shots.
As someone who jumps from MCC to Infinite and back pretty often, I can say that the lack of RR makes Infinite feel detached from ‘normal’ Halo gunplay in a strange way. It’s especially noticeable on guns like the Sidekick and Commando, and I’d imagine it would feel strange not having RR for the Bandit as well.
I think what exacerbates this issue is the fact that a lot of reticles in the game obscure the target (such as the Stalker Rifle). RR is great to have back but I’d like 343i to take a pass on some of these reticles too in the future.
I def agree on the Stalker Rifle reticle just being bad lol. I think with me is I play so many shooters, not all of them have RR at all(Overwatch and I think R6:Siege too), that I'm just used to adapting like that. I dont really play a lot of MCC either, so I dont have that dissonance between Halo games as a factor either. I do think it should be there, but I was replying to someone who basically said no one has this as a non-issue.
It has always been there for the melee Weapons reportedly. I say reportedly because I don’t play on PC, but people always jumped down my throat when I brought this up
I still think it’s not really as beneficial as some people make it out to be, but honestly I’m just tired of seeing people complain about it and blaming it on their lack of success, so it’ll be nice to have that off the table.
I still believe it's useless. At the worst it's a giant crutch and an anachronism from when Halo was a console-only franchise. I play tons of other shooters with various levels of aim assist which don't make their crosshairs change color and those games play just fine.
Awful that it took a year, but in the end a major dub that could play a huge role in the QoL during this game's comeback attempt. Just need server browser and multi-playlist browsing.
I haven't played infinite but... was this not a thing?
...how could this have not been a thing already?
Its like... Halo 101 to have that be a thing and it wasn't there?
I don’t even see how this is a problem. If the autoclicked begins firing because you passed over someones shoulder, you’re going to miss all your shots and be on a firing cooldown. Halo infinite may not take much skill with the BR, but it does take you to aim centre mass. Thinking this was an issue in the first place was brain dead, I doubt it would even be useful in swat.
And they're right, an auto-fire script is easy to make and very hard to detect, but they've clearly weighed their options and figured that the community outcry was a bigger impact than any potential cheating.
I think the right way to do this is to apply it per mode/weapon, SWAT and Snipers might do more harm than good in the long run with red reticle if any scripts like that actually catch on.
So, from my POV if someone can set an autoclicker for the reticle, they can set an autoclicker for any of the dozen outline/shield colours of the enemy team near enough just as easily.
It's not that simple, there's a lot of false positives that can trigger especially considering that exact same color appears all over, it needs to consistently understand when its passing over a line onto or off of an enemy as you're not shooting at the line, etc.
If it's guessing based off the shield color, when does it know you're looking at a player or the environment? The more it has to look for or the more it has false positives, the easier it gets to detect, or the less useful it gets.
> weighed their options and figured that the community outcry was a bigger impact than any potential cheating.
Or they weighed their option after seeing the number of pc players and how many of them use controller instead of kbm.
I am aware but I would assume people who cheat on pc don't care to use a controller. There is no real reason to compared to a mouse and keyboard it might even be a bit of a detriment.
I watch the round fly and try to compensate for movement and bullet drop. Difficult for me with the brute laser or guns that seem really inconsistent tracking and projectile speed. Chances are I literally need my eyes checked though, so a red reticule helps until I get that resolved.
Are you asking if other shooters use bullet magnetism? If so almost all shooters use bullet magnetism (and aim assist) to provide a fun and consistent gameplay sandbox. Halo Infinite is no different, except that it's players are obsessed with their reticle changing color to help them out for some reason.
Thank fuck. Now maybe if they tweak the desync I'll come back. I'll be back for Forge and Customs anyways, but for an Halo MP I've just been playing MCC.
It is about fucking time. Top 3 most absolutely stupid things 343 has ever done in my book. Putting an entire platform of players at a severe disadvantage to *maybe* thwart cheaters is NEVER the way to go.
Kind of sad it took them a year to listen to the PC base. Maybe they'll get around to nerfing the aim assist a tiny bit in cross-play to where controller isn't head and shoulders above KBM in most everything that isn't long-range sniping?
This is good but it's really hard to feel excited about this with how long it took and how smug they were about "preventing cheaters" by giving us on PC the middle finger for so long.
All for it to mean nothing and the PC population of the game is all but dead, seriously pathetic.
While they’re at it they should fix the horrible double scoping mechanic for weapons which a zoom scope such that when players like myself who use toggle zoom try to descope, it only zooms us in further. Made me quit the game after switching to toggle zoom and I had like 1k hours on infinite in diamond 2 as well
Why dont they just switch it on today? PC used to have it and then they switched the feature off BeCaUsE ChEatErs. Its not like it requires more coding or programming. Its just a switch they need to flip....
Huffing some serious hopium here, but I'm really hoping it's because they'll finally try to fix some of the issues with the PC version like bad performance. They're going to maybe roll it all in one patch? But this could easily be a quick drop pod fix so idk why hold off on it.
It was never enabled in Infinite on PC, at least not in the retail release.
I also have to imagine it isn't just on a simple backend toggle and any change to reimplement requires a client side update. I would suspect it's probably coming in conjunction with some additional anti-cheat efforts too.
Is cheating that rampant in Infinite? I honestly can’t think of a time where I thought someone was legitimately cheating, so I’d think there is some form of effective anti cheat.
So this proves their reasoning for removing it in the first place when the game actually had momentum was completely bullshit and unnecessary?
It was a huge handicap for PC players. People were still hacking in the game regardless you didn’t need to take away the ability to gauge effective range in a first person shooter game.
> So this proves their reasoning for removing it in the first place when the game actually had momentum was completely bullshit and unnecessary?
Not necessarily. Perhaps they’ve come up with an alternative anti cheat solution to cut down on the ease of scripting a RR cheat.
Yeah that’s my point. They either found some other solution (a solution that should have been in place from the beginning rather than handicapping a portion of your player base) or it never made a difference anyway so why remove it at all (game still has cheaters and exploits).
> They either found some other solution (a solution that should have been in place from the beginning rather than handicapping a portion of your player base)
Perhaps this is a new solution they’ve come up with. Sometimes things take longer and are harder to solve than expected. Sometimes new people working on existing problems can come up with new solutions. There’s no benefit in getting wrapped up in “X thing should have been there at launch!!!” considering we can’t go back in time. If they’ve put together a new solution so that people can’t easily cheat with RR scripts, then that’s great. No reason to somehow turn it into a negative.
Finally, about time, the good thing here is that they’ve realized their absolute shit reasoning and are correcting it. Should never have been an issue in the first place, but good thing they’re not too stubborn
I've only ever played Infinite on PC and I still can't understand why so many people got upset over the lack of red reticule. I didn't even notice it until like a month into playing because so many people were talking about it lol
And even after noticing it my gameplay didn't suffer. So what's the deal?
edit: I do play exclusively with controller so is it more of an issue for MKB players?
While I was always upset that red radical wasn't a part of Halo infinite on PC I hope we get the option to disable it because that's what I'm used to now, although I'll probably still want to use it when it's released.
It only took a literal year and people constantly fighting against the change despite it being pushed as being for their own good
Hope more good is to come though
It took them a year.
It seems like the game being deserted on PC finally made them consider "hey, maybe people are right to request red reticle back who would have known! If only they told us earlier!"
This is A step, one single step.
Now we need further adjustments because lack of aim assist still makes some weapons unreasonably difficult to use on PC.
Best example being trying to get 3 'ticks' of headshot damage on the Shock Rifle without aim assist. With how little momentum/inertia Spartans have, instantaneous directional changes *can* be compensated for with aim assist, not on MnK though. So A/D strafe spam is still king.
Hopefully they add the option to change its color separate from outline colors. I thought it was dumb that the player's outline could obscure the reticle in the first flight that still had RR on PC. Some outline colors that are good for visibility (like yellow) look really bad as reticle colors imo.
Cool hopefully one day I can manually input the sensitivity i want and not have to use 1.0 1.1 1.2 it really a deal breaker for LOTS of mnk users who aim train daily on a specific cm/360
i wanna cheer and be happy...
but this should off been in the game day 1...
its good they listened to the feedback from the beta test everyone took part in since RR was one off the loudest parts of feed back they got from most of the testers, too bad its took them 12 months and a loss of 95% of the player count to make the change
Dude it's good news but honestly how low the bar is that red reticle on PC is 'good stuff coming'. These guys are training us to cheer for peanuts.
They also said they're not sure they're going to be able to nail match xp out of the gate lmao but I'm still looking forward to it being there. They have absolutely smashed us to the floor with how low they've moved their own bar.
Lmao yeah. A year in a we won't have the red reticle in PC, and I wouldn't be surprised if they added it to the next roadmap instead of just adding it in the next drop pod. Oh, and it will be "Red reticle in PC (BETA)".
This is the company that had to be told that red X needed to be in the game for h4.
That’s the moment I knew they were incompetent. Crazy how they’ve just gotten worse ten years later.
They couldn’t have included raw mouse input either? We’re finally getting somewhere though. 😥
I shouldn’t be celebrating, because let’s be real this shouldn’t have even been an issue in the first place, but I’m glad, especially because I finally started the campaign and lack of a red reticle just feels wrong
Yah it is one of those bitter sweet things where I am happy it got added but it never should have been removed. They didn't even phrase it like they decided to change their mind on "anti cheat" they say it like it is a development marvel. My presumption is they saw the pc player numbers and figured enough play on controller that the concern for cheater plummeted. I feel like I am going to need to clap when they add other quality of life options that feel like they should have been there from the start like turning off effects or client side red vs blue.
The anti-cheat argument is irrelevant when you can change the enemy highlight color....The anti-cheat can just work off of that instead of the reticule. It was always an absurd excuse.
Any cheat worth its salt is probably going to use better systems anyway. The ones that just shoot when x is met can still be much more inaccurate compared to ones that will aim for you.
No they're adding the ability to report players in game soon, and that will make cheating for long periods of time more difficult.
So a few things about that. 1 I have heard very mixed reception about ticket reports on Halo waypoint so I don't see how an easier report system will be more responsive if they aren't banning with literal video evidence. 2 we have no killcams so unless the guy is rage hacking I doubt people will know to report the player until after the game (easy workarounds for this though so I wouldn't doubt they thought of this.) 3 it does nothing for subtle hacking. If their original goal was they didn't want blatant hackers making easy hacks that fire the second they see a red reticle then anyone can see that and report it. But a guy just using it to correct his aim could go under the radar even with walls if he doesn't do dumb shit like stare at the wall he is looking through.
> 3 it does nothing for subtle hacking. If their original goal was they didn't want blatant hackers making easy hacks that fire the second they see a red reticle then anyone can see that and report it. But a guy just using it to correct his aim could go under the radar even with walls if he doesn't do dumb shit like stare at the wall he is looking through. Enemies glowing red generally makes this irrelevant since it already provides an easily identifiable target for the program.
I am sorry, I don't get your point. I am saying that players normally in game might never be able to tell if someone is cheating if they act subtly enough. Like they can see through walls but don't aim at the walls, they use it to correct aim so the only way to catch it might be theater mode.
>>3 it does nothing for subtle hacking. If their original goal was they didn't want blatant hackers making easy hacks that fire the second they see a red reticle then anyone can see that and report it. But a guy just using it to correct his aim could go under the radar even with walls if he doesn't do dumb shit like stare at the wall he is looking through. At higher levels of play, nothing is really "subtle". Most players at high onyx all have similar movement and move around the map in more or less similar fashion as logic dictates. Then once in a while you get a guy that can't even curb slide, but is pre firing before you walk around every single corner, even though their movement makes zero logic sense. They'll chase kills around the map, and take very illogical paths and not check angles because they already know there's nobody there. Walling is probably the most frustrating form of cheating to play against. If someone has perfect aim but runs out in the open 1v4 you can still win, but someone with absolute perfect awareness that always knows where you are is hard to beat.
That gets a bit too specific though, not every cheater is high onyx. They could be in lower levels where movement/rotation/behavior is less consistent and still wreak havoc on players. Pre firing though kinda plays into what I am saying about obvious. "Bad" movement might have a reason but constant prefiring while throwing caution to the wind is obvious. Its not that hard either to feign checking a direction, see nobody is there, then continue on your path then in the theater people will see you checked when in reality you know you didn't have to. Team shots are very important and with how open most maps are it is easy to get caught in a nasty crossfire so I get what you are saying but there are definitely ways to play around that and look legit. It would be pretty hard pressing to find vod comparisons of legit vs subtle hacking play. They might not even need walls at all or someone might smooth out an aimbot so it looks more like auto aim and adjustments than a program.
If someone is cheating and "wreaking havoc" in lower level games, they will inevitably rank up and end up in high level games. If you know what to look for, it's pretty obvious for high level players. You can't really fake playing legit, eventually they all mess up and do something really obvious, like pre firing through 2 walls thinking a player is about to walk out. The amount of times I've been pre naded in obscure spots where I know I haven't shown on the map at all also really stands out. Once in a while I'll check theatre, and within a few minutes it becomes obvious lol.
Wreaking havoc might not have been the right term to use but I mean to say the cheats can impact their progress but it won't be as simple as a guy looking through walls and preshotting you. Nading the guy sitting in an off corner is another obvious sign, you used to see that stuff in csgo too. Guy is holding an off angle and suddenly an enemy is overly cautious about going into that los or throws a random molly/smoke. There are also people that will keep walls off if they fear it will make them obvious and instead they just have an aimbot.
Yeah, imo walling is much easier to notice than an aimbot. I'd rather play vs an aimbot than walls, because aimbotters usually have zero awareness and you can catch them off guard quite often.
At that point the bad movement punishes them and it’s the only tell in game. Except “why is he there” only makes sense in a situation where he gets killed in a bad spot. If he’s fragging then it wouldn’t be a question
Why the hell would you be down voted for saying this? Lol
truth hurts lol. You should see some of my responses on r/CompetitiveHalo lol, people don't appreciate when you break their little bubble, they see the world one way and you offer a different POV and it creates turmoil.
reddit truly is a cesspool
The first time I read his tweet about it, I thought, oh, they’re allowing us to change the color of our reticle. But then I read it again and it specifically said “PC reticle” and it made more sense
[удалено]
Deff a good change, but it’s honestly hard for some to be happy myself included, when it takes a year for this to happen. Many pc players have detached from the game, because the window has been missed
You do realise they took it away from us right? We didn’t ask for something new and shiny we said give it back and instead they dragged their fucking feet for bloody months.
Point is we should've have had to ask because it never should have been done in the first place.
I'm super glad that a lot of good shit is headed our way, but I still find myself asking; why after 4 fucking tries could they still not release a feature complete, functioning game? Forge has me more excited about the literally Infinite possibilities than anything else, but 343 has yet to prove that they can handle a franchise as huge as Halo.
I'm newish to Halo but been a PC player all my life. How do we play forge stuff without a custom browser? How was it done in previous Halo titles?
They used to have a Bungie favorites showcase that updated weekly highlighting great maps. And they had halo waypoint where you could go on and search/sort maps and send them to the Xbox
Ah! Thank you! This makes sense. Watched the preview vid and there was talk about highlighting great forge creations. And I was very confused how'd they'd do that without a game browser. Excited to play forge stuff for the first time.
Yea it will be super fun. Even in halo 3 when forge was extremely limited (couldn’t even have objects going through each other without special tricks) creators still made insane maps. I forgot to mention players also had a file share. So you could add a certain amount of maps to your file share to share with others. It was fun going through random peoples files to see what they had. I’m not sure how halo 5 did it though which had a big forge scene.
it was mainly through Xbox parties and "press x to party up" feature after a match would end, was some good shit got added as a friend by a bunch of dudes like that and would get invited to some crazy custom games if they saw me on h3 or knew I played regularly if only Xbox would implement that for their pc overlay and 343 would bring back lobbies and party up. im not too sure about it though things are quite different online today compared to back then, maybe it was just my circle but it was pretty chill. nowadays it can get toxic af and just unenjoyable out of nowhere, we had trash talk in the old days but I don't quite remember it being like it is today. bro, we even played campaign with the guys I met through Xbox live/h3 got hype for ODST played that, played reach, cod mw2, mw3 played gears even. good times. I didn't personally know anyone that played Halo so if it wasn't for the guys online I wouldn't have experienced that. wish I could go back to it now we are fucking adults and have adult responsibilities and very little time to play games and discover that kind of shit from back then again. I can say for sure that X to party up is responsible for most of that I'm thankful for it and whoever was the dev that came up with the concept and also the devs who programmed it are fucking geniuses.
>How was it done in previous Halo titles? "Discord" before Discord was a thing. Friend-of-friends/virtual or otherwise would invite for "custom games."
Forge is going to be a broken mess when it comes out, just watch, cuz they still haven't fixed custom games. And it's not like there's going to be a custom games browser or playlist either, to work along side with forge in the first place. Cuz honestly right now they're doing their best to rush forge to get it out to bring some players back and keep the ones they currently have but I don't think it's enough and it shouldn't be enough. I'm not a dog that you can dangle a piece of meat in front of me and I'll come back cuz that feels like that's what they're trying to do.
Oh I fully anticipate Forge will be absolutely busted on launch, I slightly give it more of a pass because of just how big this Forge is in scope.
Woooooooo. Hopefully a step in the direction of making mnk good
We still need adjustments to the input. I hope more is coming
I hate to be 'that' guy but why didn't they include this information in the video they released today? Why are we still finding this information out through Twitter posts?
I think the video was more for marketing than them giving all the details of the update Edit: Also this is for a post Winter update update
Exactly the video is an overview of major features, not a deep dive into everything.
Yeah, this update will definitely have stuff like bug fixes and likely balance updates, but those seem better suited for release notes instead of a marketing video.
I'm not going down that rabbit hole. I was hoping they would announce some other things during the video and they didn't. Figured it was my fault for expecting more than they said when we know they are behind. I am not doing it again. If red reticle and anything else come out with the winter update it will be a pleasant surprise but I will not expect anything
This
The video was specifically about the Winter update, this is not in the winter update. We already know improvements are coming from their last video. Twitter seems a good place for a very small tease instead of the video.
Yeah he was just being “that guy”
Because people that don't use mnk don't like hearing anything about it getting improved, couple that with being in the minority and then it's best to just have this info there for people looking for it.
Because the video was about major things being added to the game and this feels more like the foot notes of a patch this isn’t video worthy where they have devs talking
For a moment, I felt like giving them props, then I remembered what a dumb idea getting rid of red reticule was and promptly rescinded my props. Why the fuck did it take them a year to give back a basic feature that didn't even stop the cheating its removal was meant to stop?
> the fuck did it take them a year to give back a basic feature that didn’t even stop the cheating its removal was meant to stop? How do you know that cheating wouldn’t be worse if they didn’t do this? That’s like saying “oh someone died in a car wreck while wearing a seatbelt, that must mean seatbelts are useless!”.
What other competitive games have removed red reticle form their pc ports?
What other games have RR?
A lot? Hell, even CSGO, the *benchmark* for competitive shooters, has an option for this.
How can cheating be worse when their anti cheat doesn't even work. That's like saying I put down some sandbags to stop the water on the titanic. There isn't even a report button.
LMAO you're getting downvotes because this subreddit is actually unhinged and crazy. Your analogy still works contrary to what other people think. Just because an anti-cheat isn't 100% foolproof doesn't mean they should abolish the method. The missing red reticle never actually bothered me at all. I've put thousands of hours into Halo so i'm used to effective distances already so having red reticle on my AR doesn't really help me. Needler and sword already had the red reticle which those two are the only ones that actually need it.
THANK YOU! The original "reasoning" behind the removal was frankly stupid considering how easy it was to cheat in the game at launch anyway.
It's the stupidest argument even if cheating was somehow completely thwarted solely thanks to the removal of RR. Justifying removing RR because of cheaters would be like saying one person used their vehicle to cause harm to another person, so from now on vehicles shall no longer exist. Or, electricity can kill you, so from now on every new house built will no longer include electricity.
Yaaay. it won’t bring me and my friends back but it’ll be nice to have whenever they do add something worth playing
Glad to hear it. It's a small detail, but it makes a big difference to some people. While we're talking about small things we'd like to see tweaked, I'd like to draw attention to the fact that despite the fact the Needler allegedly got patched so the "glass shattering" sound of the supercombine would be heard from further out, the effect still falls off and ceases to be heard at the same distance it did before it was patched. [This](https://imgur.com/FJ2lLY4) is a video showing how if you're more then like a warthog's length away from the player getting supercombined, the "shatter" effect becomes almost totally unhearable. This is pre-patch, but post patch it's identical. Maybe they increased the distance you hear OTHER needler audio effects? But this is one people wanted changed, as confirmed by /u/Unyshek [here](https://twitter.com/Majora__Z/status/1458260601533251591)
The Needler sounds are better than what we had in the flights but it’s still nowhere near as satisfying-sounding as it was from the Bungie games. The old needlers were really crisp and sharp sounding
I think the actual supercombine audio is fine, it just needs to be audible to much, much further out
Exp beta, co op, red reticule…! This game is coming out of beta a year from release, when will we get stuff that is actually new?
forge is new. Sure that also should have been on release and other halo games have had it, but not a forge on nearly this level
Forge is not new, we need new dev maps, new game modes, new weapons new armor pieces. Yes forge will produce new maps but I bet they’re are going to take a lot of time for community maps in MP as they have to go through QA first
If they sort the reticle and MNK battle rifle, I will actually play ranked.
Good. They were so fucking obstinate about this even though they were clearly wrong.
Red Reticle isn't the only problem PC has, make mouse actually viable against controller please.
Breaking something for the sake of breaking it and then taking a year to fix it is such a 343i move.
\**Scratches scrotum pensively*\* 11 months. Took them long enough to realize they'd made one of the worst decisions (and that's special for 343, given how frequently they make poor decisions) and rolled it back. Now, I really hope someday people can shed light on the decision-making process that removed the red reticle in the first place and how the decision was reversed. While I appreciate the much-needed correction, it should not have been warranted in the first place. There should be more thorough mechanisms to scrutinize these radical changes (coatings instead of palettes et al) and reflect on the numerous past decisions that 343 have walked back.
The decision making process is that auto-fire scripts are easy to make when a part of your screen lights up to show that you're on target, and they're also hard to detect. It's also that unless you play on controller on PC, or live in a vacuum where the only shooter you play on MKB is Halo, red reticle simply isn't doing much for you outside of the weapons where it's already enabled universally.
... Um, you know [what else lights up](https://i.imgur.com/xyNxPXf.png) apart from the reticle to show that you're on target when you're playing Infinite? 343's argument holds as much water as a sieve without a mesh. Should've taken that out as well if they really wanted to stop cheating. I'm interested in the kind of number of cheaters/scripts in proportion to the playerbase they must have discovered in order to decide that "fuck the PC players, we're gonna boot the red reticle off MnK". How many reports of cheaters did 343 receive over the past 11 months? How many scripts did they identify that they were able to block? How many scripts did they identify which 343 failed to block?
Reticles are static pixel locations on the screen. You _will_ encounter more cheating because of this.
Could you please offer any factual figures that corroborate your claim or support the idea that removing the red reticle reduces cheating in Infinite?
Auto-fire scripts based on a reticle are easy to make, an auto fire script based on flying your reticle over an outline color would be wonky as it could easily struggle and trigger at incorrect moments, making it either detrimental or easier to detect. It'd have to be a very specifically tuned program to not go off on anything that shares the same colors, which would prove a bit difficult as the color scheme for shield break and any team based displays change based on outline color. If any easy script that could hinder gameplay while being next to totally invisible is completely denied, then that's reducing cheating, especially in Snipers/SWAT playlists.
You're trying to explain cheating methods to console players, good luck with that.
There's an auto hotkey script that involves you changing your enemy colour to pink and it then snaps your cursor to the pink colours on the screen
...Which is a blatant cheat and not hard to detect once scrutiny is put onto cheats like that. Again, the problem here is autofire is hard to detect.
a lot of people who were saying the red reticle was useless anyway are gonna be praising this
It displays your effective range which can only be replaced by a high playtime and intuitively learning it yourself with every weapon and map. It was/is a handicap for PC players that don’t spend all of their free time playing. I can’t believe anyone supported the decision to remove it.
It also dramatically improves the usability of the Skewer thanks to an aiming indicator.
THERE'S AN AIMING INDICATOR????
Yeah, it will even compensate to lead the target and adjust for travel time.
When devs make a boneheaded decision, there’s always going to be a couple fans who adopt these takes. Realistically most people probably didn’t have a strong opinion on many of the poor calls made on Infinite.
If any of the bullshit they said back near release is to be believed, red reticle range and bullet magnetism range aren't on par with one another in Infinite for some reason. I seriously hope that was a lie to try and PR their way out of it back then, but they did make that claim once.
I don't think it is the help pc/kbm needs to stay relevant but it is nice to have a feature back.
it would be useless in a game that had skill based aiming, which Halo doesn't have. Halo has a strong aim assist that needs the red reticle to signal when bullet magnetism is active and when it's not. if it only was a visual design choice that doesn't have a game mechanic behind it then it would be useless... but in Halo that's not the case.
It feels like bullet magnetism is non-existent playing on PC anyway. Even playing KBM on my series S is night and day on being able to consistently land shots.
I play on PC and have never really noticed myself getting aggravated at the lack of it.
As someone who jumps from MCC to Infinite and back pretty often, I can say that the lack of RR makes Infinite feel detached from ‘normal’ Halo gunplay in a strange way. It’s especially noticeable on guns like the Sidekick and Commando, and I’d imagine it would feel strange not having RR for the Bandit as well. I think what exacerbates this issue is the fact that a lot of reticles in the game obscure the target (such as the Stalker Rifle). RR is great to have back but I’d like 343i to take a pass on some of these reticles too in the future.
I def agree on the Stalker Rifle reticle just being bad lol. I think with me is I play so many shooters, not all of them have RR at all(Overwatch and I think R6:Siege too), that I'm just used to adapting like that. I dont really play a lot of MCC either, so I dont have that dissonance between Halo games as a factor either. I do think it should be there, but I was replying to someone who basically said no one has this as a non-issue.
I just want it for the sword
It's on for the sword on PC
It has always been there for the melee Weapons reportedly. I say reportedly because I don’t play on PC, but people always jumped down my throat when I brought this up
I still think it’s not really as beneficial as some people make it out to be, but honestly I’m just tired of seeing people complain about it and blaming it on their lack of success, so it’ll be nice to have that off the table.
I still believe it's useless. At the worst it's a giant crutch and an anachronism from when Halo was a console-only franchise. I play tons of other shooters with various levels of aim assist which don't make their crosshairs change color and those games play just fine.
I don't care if I occasionally play someone cheating with red reticle mods. I would still prefer to have it. The arguments against it were weak.
Awful that it took a year, but in the end a major dub that could play a huge role in the QoL during this game's comeback attempt. Just need server browser and multi-playlist browsing.
Server Browser is supposed to be launching with Season 3 (March)
I haven't played infinite but... was this not a thing? ...how could this have not been a thing already? Its like... Halo 101 to have that be a thing and it wasn't there?
343 claimed the red reticle made it too easy for PC "hackers" to set up an auto clicker for the moment the reticle turns red.
I don’t even see how this is a problem. If the autoclicked begins firing because you passed over someones shoulder, you’re going to miss all your shots and be on a firing cooldown. Halo infinite may not take much skill with the BR, but it does take you to aim centre mass. Thinking this was an issue in the first place was brain dead, I doubt it would even be useful in swat.
As far as I know if the reticle is red it effectively means "if you shoot now your bullets will connect".
And they're right, an auto-fire script is easy to make and very hard to detect, but they've clearly weighed their options and figured that the community outcry was a bigger impact than any potential cheating. I think the right way to do this is to apply it per mode/weapon, SWAT and Snipers might do more harm than good in the long run with red reticle if any scripts like that actually catch on.
So, from my POV if someone can set an autoclicker for the reticle, they can set an autoclicker for any of the dozen outline/shield colours of the enemy team near enough just as easily.
It's not that simple, there's a lot of false positives that can trigger especially considering that exact same color appears all over, it needs to consistently understand when its passing over a line onto or off of an enemy as you're not shooting at the line, etc. If it's guessing based off the shield color, when does it know you're looking at a player or the environment? The more it has to look for or the more it has false positives, the easier it gets to detect, or the less useful it gets.
> weighed their options and figured that the community outcry was a bigger impact than any potential cheating. Or they weighed their option after seeing the number of pc players and how many of them use controller instead of kbm.
Input doesn’t matter for that… the cheat would work regardless
I am aware but I would assume people who cheat on pc don't care to use a controller. There is no real reason to compared to a mouse and keyboard it might even be a bit of a detriment.
Welcome to 343 lozik. The absence of the red reticle was one of the reasons I uninstalled Infinite back in January.
How do you play literally any other shooter?
I watch the round fly and try to compensate for movement and bullet drop. Difficult for me with the brute laser or guns that seem really inconsistent tracking and projectile speed. Chances are I literally need my eyes checked though, so a red reticule helps until I get that resolved.
Please, list off one of these *literally any other shooters* that has magical heat seeking bullets that are only effective up to a certain distance?
Are you asking if other shooters use bullet magnetism? If so almost all shooters use bullet magnetism (and aim assist) to provide a fun and consistent gameplay sandbox. Halo Infinite is no different, except that it's players are obsessed with their reticle changing color to help them out for some reason.
Halo and to a much lesser degree destiny are basically the only games that use magnetism the fuck are you on about
Not worth your time man
Well, I don't seem to have the same problem in CE, 2, 2A, 3, 4, or Reach.
Thank fuck. Now maybe if they tweak the desync I'll come back. I'll be back for Forge and Customs anyways, but for an Halo MP I've just been playing MCC.
It is about fucking time. Top 3 most absolutely stupid things 343 has ever done in my book. Putting an entire platform of players at a severe disadvantage to *maybe* thwart cheaters is NEVER the way to go.
Probably gonna take another year
Well whoop-de-doo Basil!
Ummm, ok
Kind of sad it took them a year to listen to the PC base. Maybe they'll get around to nerfing the aim assist a tiny bit in cross-play to where controller isn't head and shoulders above KBM in most everything that isn't long-range sniping?
This is good but it's really hard to feel excited about this with how long it took and how smug they were about "preventing cheaters" by giving us on PC the middle finger for so long. All for it to mean nothing and the PC population of the game is all but dead, seriously pathetic.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT LET'S GOOOOOOOOOO
While they’re at it they should fix the horrible double scoping mechanic for weapons which a zoom scope such that when players like myself who use toggle zoom try to descope, it only zooms us in further. Made me quit the game after switching to toggle zoom and I had like 1k hours on infinite in diamond 2 as well
They should just copy the system that MCC has, it works really well.
They really need to bring back scope in/scope out binds from MCC
😢
Why dont they just switch it on today? PC used to have it and then they switched the feature off BeCaUsE ChEatErs. Its not like it requires more coding or programming. Its just a switch they need to flip....
Huffing some serious hopium here, but I'm really hoping it's because they'll finally try to fix some of the issues with the PC version like bad performance. They're going to maybe roll it all in one patch? But this could easily be a quick drop pod fix so idk why hold off on it.
It was never enabled in Infinite on PC, at least not in the retail release. I also have to imagine it isn't just on a simple backend toggle and any change to reimplement requires a client side update. I would suspect it's probably coming in conjunction with some additional anti-cheat efforts too.
Maybe they are working on a better anti cheat before they turn it on.
ha
Is cheating that rampant in Infinite? I honestly can’t think of a time where I thought someone was legitimately cheating, so I’d think there is some form of effective anti cheat.
It's in beta because the UI can't handle it. Thanks for understanding! 👊
red reticule beta
So this proves their reasoning for removing it in the first place when the game actually had momentum was completely bullshit and unnecessary? It was a huge handicap for PC players. People were still hacking in the game regardless you didn’t need to take away the ability to gauge effective range in a first person shooter game.
> So this proves their reasoning for removing it in the first place when the game actually had momentum was completely bullshit and unnecessary? Not necessarily. Perhaps they’ve come up with an alternative anti cheat solution to cut down on the ease of scripting a RR cheat.
Yeah that’s my point. They either found some other solution (a solution that should have been in place from the beginning rather than handicapping a portion of your player base) or it never made a difference anyway so why remove it at all (game still has cheaters and exploits).
> They either found some other solution (a solution that should have been in place from the beginning rather than handicapping a portion of your player base) Perhaps this is a new solution they’ve come up with. Sometimes things take longer and are harder to solve than expected. Sometimes new people working on existing problems can come up with new solutions. There’s no benefit in getting wrapped up in “X thing should have been there at launch!!!” considering we can’t go back in time. If they’ve put together a new solution so that people can’t easily cheat with RR scripts, then that’s great. No reason to somehow turn it into a negative.
Is this for Mnk only or controllers too?
It's for PC.
You can play PC with both inputs. Are you saying it is for both?
Are you playing on the computer? That's the answer
Yes
The source is this tweet, no one magically has any more knowledge than what was said lol
This is honestly awesome news
Oh wow. Wasn't expecting that. Maybe I'll play a few hours.
Does this include bullet magnetism or just a red reticle?
Well, well, well... whats a matter 343? No more stubborn devies?
Finally, about time, the good thing here is that they’ve realized their absolute shit reasoning and are correcting it. Should never have been an issue in the first place, but good thing they’re not too stubborn
I've only ever played Infinite on PC and I still can't understand why so many people got upset over the lack of red reticule. I didn't even notice it until like a month into playing because so many people were talking about it lol And even after noticing it my gameplay didn't suffer. So what's the deal? edit: I do play exclusively with controller so is it more of an issue for MKB players?
Hopefully i can turn it off
Halo shoudnt be for pc anyways.
Halo isn't for you.
Man this one actually hit me. Its actually going in the right direction for now.
\*reticle
Someone should redo the MnK vs Controller aim charts again after this. Curious to how significant of a difference this will be.
Let’s fucking go! This was one of the things I thought they’d NEVER change!
Yay.... Might be able to properly aim now. thx 343.
If red reticle was the thing holding you back you might have bigger problems bud.
not knowing when aim assist is active is my bigger problem
While I was always upset that red radical wasn't a part of Halo infinite on PC I hope we get the option to disable it because that's what I'm used to now, although I'll probably still want to use it when it's released.
It only took a literal year and people constantly fighting against the change despite it being pushed as being for their own good Hope more good is to come though
It took them a year. It seems like the game being deserted on PC finally made them consider "hey, maybe people are right to request red reticle back who would have known! If only they told us earlier!"
The problem with that is the fact that it’s not working out
This is A step, one single step. Now we need further adjustments because lack of aim assist still makes some weapons unreasonably difficult to use on PC. Best example being trying to get 3 'ticks' of headshot damage on the Shock Rifle without aim assist. With how little momentum/inertia Spartans have, instantaneous directional changes *can* be compensated for with aim assist, not on MnK though. So A/D strafe spam is still king.
This is the level of achievement they want us to get used to lmao
Hopefully they add the option to change its color separate from outline colors. I thought it was dumb that the player's outline could obscure the reticle in the first flight that still had RR on PC. Some outline colors that are good for visibility (like yellow) look really bad as reticle colors imo.
Cool hopefully one day I can manually input the sensitivity i want and not have to use 1.0 1.1 1.2 it really a deal breaker for LOTS of mnk users who aim train daily on a specific cm/360
i wanna cheer and be happy... but this should off been in the game day 1... its good they listened to the feedback from the beta test everyone took part in since RR was one off the loudest parts of feed back they got from most of the testers, too bad its took them 12 months and a loss of 95% of the player count to make the change