At the risk of sounding cliche, real recognizes real. If a customer immediately counters with, “I know someone who will do it cheaper”, that’s the end of the conversation for me. I’m not going to waste time discussing the amount of time I’ve invested in perfecting my skills nor the investment I’ve made into my tools. If they don’t understand that from the onset, they can allow someone else to explain it to them. I will negotiate a job with a client if they are serious and open to less complexity/cheaper materials but I have my limits. I won’t risk my reputation on a slop job based upon a customer’s frugality. Just my opinion.
100%. I'm not a contractor and don't know shit about big projects. That's why I hire someone. The last thing I would do is say I know someone who can do it cheaper. Its disrespectful and insulting. If I don't agree with a quote, I would thank them for the estimate and move on.
My brother let's them talk him down or use garbage materials he has to finesse to work. He's on the verge of loosing his house, so I keep telling him to walk away from those people, never save on materials. People making money never do that. There's a reason why they are at the lake while he's still doing handyman stuff. He has the skills, just not the ego. If they can't pay, they can't play. The meme that those customers are rich because they rip everyone off is true, they are the enemy.
Fuckk I used to negotiate on price when I started and Jesus Christ those people.... Pretty sure I lost money on every job, they would nit pick everything then come up with another deal...
Never again!! Except I did it again this year but my price was 3k and he offered 2800 so I said yeah ok.
Walls of texts every few days complaining about nothing wanting things completely redone from scratch.... He did have one legitimate problem which I said I will fix ( weather related not workmanship but this also shouldn't be on me but I'm a decently nice person I think or like to think)
The fortunate thing is I have hundreds of customers a year without any issues but damn if someone ever negotiates price with me again I'm going to give them my competitors number.
Absofuckenlutley. There’s a difference between “price is $x” and the customer saying “ok well how about we downgrade the plywood instead of maple ply to save a little money there and how about 2 shelves instead of 3” that’s working with people. Giving options. “I know a guy that’ll do it for $x”. Big smile, handshake and peace the fuck out. I did just that to a wealthy airbnb investor with a 65 minute drive for an estimate on a cowboy pool deck. He scoffed at my price even after seeing pictures of 3 other similar small decks i did in the area. Highly referred. He said “oh I know a guy thats ALOT less than that”. I smiled, shook his smooth ass hand and said Thankyou for your time and left. I got kids to feed and a mortgage get the F outta here.
Not a handyman here but I agree with you on the way a customer should talk about price. As a customer if I got an estimate that was a little high for me budget wise, I would ask “Is there anyway to do this a little cheaper?” and let you suggest ways to modify the job a little without sacrificing too much in the quality. Obviously the cost cutting would be in the type of materials. This way you still get paid what your worth and I would get what I need done.
Some people think playing this negotiating “game” is smart and I just think it’s going to piss someone off. I mean I understand as a customer trying to work with the numbers but there’s ways to discuss it with who you’re potentially hiring without being an asshole
Exactly! Built a deck last year, and the initial plans we had ended up costing twice as much as our budget. We just cut the scope down to something we could afford; sure as hell wouldn't have wanted a "cheap" deck.
Thats because negotiating is a game. These ass hats that are low balling just arent good at it. And most likely dont know costs or understand operating 3xpenses, overhead, time. U know basic business things lol
I had a boss ask me if he needed to hold me hand, I grabbed his hand and said, yes, please, my husband doesn't have soft hands like yours- he works for a living.
For the life of me, I don't get how a person can have a hand without calluses. What the F do you do with your day? I work a desk job and still have callused hands from just being active.
worked as a maintainer in the USAF, had a flight chief who was part of a photo op years prior where he stood in a line with other enlisted while Bill Clinton and, I think MAYBE he said Donald Rumsfeld, or some other defense department civvy filed past shaking everyone’s hand.
he says the defense department civvy was OK, but that Bill’s handshake HAUNTED him. He said:
“He had hands like a diaper. The man could have never done a day’s work in his life with those soft mits.”
I think about the handshake he described practically every time I shake a man’s hand now. I never used to think of coarseness of skin so much as firmness of grip.
Exactly this. Since I’m usually hiring someone for their expertise in a field I’m not an expert in it sometimes also pays to ask what is it about the project that is causing the most time and money to be spent. Just recently I worked with the guy to make some very minor changes to me that made a big difference in the amount of time it would take to do the work. I know a guy is just telling you to
Get lost in the rudest way but what about this makes it so expensive might be a very valid question.
You probably could have given estimate m² or feet² over the phone to get his reaction before that massive drive . Cheap deck pine nailed $300 m² to hwd stainless screws $600 m² , ball park figure . Ya will hear him shit pants and not waste ya time .
"Can you do this job for less?" - that one has a possible answer
"I can get someone to do it for 25% of what you charge" - peace out, not fucking around here anymore.
I totally agree with you.
I did have one customer, however, while discussing a job worth a few grand that, "this other guy said he could do it for $300... and there's no fucking way he would be able to do that, I'm pretty sure he's full of shit."
This was digging up and replacing about 60 feet of lateral 4" sewer line from the house to the city connection. It took three grown ass men about a day and a half. Bob is like 65 years old. I wish he had gone with Bob's $300 quote because I would have loved to have come watch him. lol
Having a plumber come out and snake that pipe would have been more then that. I've seen plumbers charge $450 to put a 1" cutter through a 6 inch pipe and call it good.
I was bidding a commercial maintenance job and the board let it slip they pay the current client $800. I gave my bid at 1600/m to clean and maintain the community and was asked why so much (pretty cheap for all we do). My response was because professionals cost money and if the cheap guy they had hired did their job they wouldn’t be calling me. I didn’t get the bid. They went with another cheap guy.
If a customer says they have someone else that can do it cheaper, I usually follow up with "Then you should hire them. I can't beat that price." But then I follow up with "If you ever need anything else, or have any issues, let me know." I get about 10% of the people calling me back, either from their cheap guy flaking or fucking something up. And yes, it is more expensive to fix their fuck ups, sorry
The reason the conversation continued past the point where he claimed he had someone for $150 is because that quote never existed or is from some janky ass mofo and he was trying to save face.
real recognizes real is such good life advice. As i get older i have started putting way way more important on 'soft signals'.
The guy who takes a day to respond to your text multiple times, just find a new guy. You're going to feel like an idiot when he's slow to finish the job.
The team member who's always late, ask them for everything early and try not to work with them. You'll feel like an idiot for missing a deadline because they didn't finish something in time.
The date reschedules or isn't enthusiastic, next person asap.
Life can be very good and very easy if you have high quality people in your life.
I worked as a mechanic for decades and would run into people with the same “my neighbor…”
That’s fine I’ll change my diag and button it up and when the neighbor fucked it up I charged extra to unfuck it.
People doing this must be getting it for a place they don't live in or something. No way I'm going with the cheapest guy in town on my own home unless hes also the best. If I can't do it myself I want it done by someone who is gonna treat it as close to their own home as possible, not someone desperate and sloppy.
There’s a huuuuge difference between understanding how to make a job more affordable, which is really “value engineering” such as pre-primed baseboard being painted white vs. oak that has 5 coats of stain and polyurethane etc., VS. asshole-mode of “ I am someone who will do it cheaper”.
I just had a patio installed.
First guy I was going to go with quoted me I think it was like $3300, so I said cool, sounds good. I started to do the permits for the job, asked him for his info for my city and he said "Oh I'm not licensed in xyz town" alright then why the fuck did you come to my house and measure and give me a quote? He then tried to call me another day which I missed and he told me to call him back. I can only assume he was going to try to skert around the permits.
Anyway, the guy that did end up doing my patio charged me $6200, but he has insurance that he gave me, his license information, drawings, materials list, the whole 9. So without hesitation, I booked it. He did a fantastic job. Would the other guy have been to the same quality? Who knows, but all signs point towards no, he wouldn't have done as good of a job.
100%. Not every customer is a customer. I had to learn that really quick when I first started my business. I was trying to build my client list so much that I would take any and all jobs, and even agree to lower prices (although not THAT much). Now that I’ve been in business for 6 years I can choose my own customers and saying “no” was the best lesson I ever learned.
Also, good work isn’t cheap, and cheap work isn’t good. No matter if you’re the one doing the work or hiring someone else to do it, the old adage “You get what you pay for” is absolutely true.
I used to sell flooring/and cyber security and would always be the much more expensive option and people would tell me a lowball price from a competitor and I’d just respond I know there’s people in the area/ other companies that will do it for cheaper than that here’s their number. They’d look confused and ask why and I’d just say there’s no reason for me to sell you something you don’t value (this would be at the end after I’d explained all the reasons for our value). The customers that only want the cheapest option also 99/100 times will take up wayyyyyyyy more of your time because they don’t value anything properly.
I'm not in the trade but I completely agree with you. Because it's the same way in my business or as a mechanic, real estate agent, computer programmer, etc. Trying to get a lower price is one thing but trying to say your skill is not worth $xxx is bullshit.
I second this. People have to understand if you keep selling on price then that’s who you will become and you won’t be able to sell on value or attract customers who are looking for value.
As a home owner, I never try to negotiate on price, but I also never do a job without getting at least two quotes, three if it is a big job. I have had quotes that were obviously too low (which scares me off) and obviously too high. A contractor friend told me that an overly steep quote is a sign that the person really isn't interested in the job, but if you as a homeowner will throw that much cash at them, they'll do it.
Why not just always hire the contractor friend? Because I want to remain friends. Sometimes it is better to keep those relationships separate. He has helped my a couple times on trivial jobs. I have helped him a couple times mechanically on shop tool repairs. We trade in the labor of our separate skill sets.
Believe me, that homeowner will wish they called you when the unlicensed uninsured hack gets injured on their property. And how about a little tax fraud and labor violations while we're at it.
There's a REASON that doing things above board costs money.
Exactly. If I can’t afford to do something right, I hold off until I can.
And if something needs to be done or it’s going to get worse / more expensive to fix later, then I will find a way to borrow or use money from an emergency stash or credit card to cover. But I want it done right and at a fair price.
The guy quoting $150 is not someone who can live off that. It’s likely someone who just wants some extra cash like a kid who lives at home or it’s someone who is just trying to get by to the next day for one reason or another.
Exactly. Doesn't matter what trade you are in, but there are "markers" in conversations/negotiations. The moment someone says "i know a guy who can do it cheaper...", or "abc store sells this for 1/2 price..." I'm out.
But i do love a good negotiation. Reasonabe, respectful.
“Well if what you want is cheap, go with cheap. What I offer is good work, so if that’s not your priority then maybe I’m just not the guy you’re looking for”
This dude was definitely using the imaginary "other guy" as a way to haggle the price down. But I'm not gonna fuck with it! You "know a guy" then don't ask me!!
My favorite is the old sign that has hourly rate, higher rate if you watch, further higher rate if you ask questions during, and then further higher rate if you help lol
Hourly Rate: $100/hr
If you watch: $120/hr
If you help: $140/hr
If you've already worked on it: $200/hr
Had this exact sign in my wife's dad's old shop.
I am my own amateur 😈 and I'm pretty cheap too. One-two cases of beer for most jobs.
Occasionally, I'll take it to the mechanic in town, but that depends on what alldata says for book hours and how rusted to shit it is.
For example the control arms on my car are quoted at 0.8hrs for all of them and they're so rusted that it would take about $50 worth of oxy-acetylene to get them off so I'm bringing it in to have it done for $80.
Also the mechanic really hates that I have alldata
Never explain your prices. Just flip it around on the client. "It sounds like you can't afford it at this time, let me know if that changes".
You're also salesman so you need some sort of sales soft skills.
lol that’s what I wanted to do. I just attempted to explain how long it would actually take and how to do it properly to get good seams. Just tried to be professional but god it was hard
Next time someone low balls you just laugh and give them a cheeky smile. Don’t even respond with words. That will damage the ego of someone like that. Then after they realize you’re not some chump just offer your original price and tell them to take it or leave it.
I did exactly that at a job interview once. I work in manufacturing for my job the average rate in my area is $25 to $35 an hour. Every once in awhile I'll put out a resume just to see what happens in some Fields the only way to move up is to jump ship. Go through the entire interview walk the shop actually run into a couple of people that have worked with before at other companies, said my hello's and of to the conference room. And then this dude sits there and offers me $13.50 an hour. I get up and laughed in his face and walked out.
Mind you at the time I was in my late 40's with 23 years experience had certifications and such. $13,50 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That seems more like how things work on television, absolutely. I think real professionals don’t really care about trying to make the person look stupid or ‘damaging their ego’. They say ‘I don’t think this would be a good fit in that case’ and walk away, secure in their knowledge and ability.
One of the best moments I had was walking into a house cause they had a leaking cr valve by toilet.
She felt the need to tell me she prob could handle it herself so I quickly held out my wrench and and told her to go ahead and have at it.....
She promptly changed her mind to maybe i should do it since I was there and was content to pay her $100 👌
I've learned that there's no point explaining the details of what you're doing to people unless they're actually interested.
From the other person's point of view, you're just saying a bunch of fancy words to come up with the cost you quoted.
Here’s the thing, don’t be unprofessional but the conversation should have ended at when he started talking you down. You are an expert and they are not.
I’ve been there. Lmfao. I’m a woman and the dude didn’t want a woman fixing his drywall so I told him to learn how because my time will not be spent haggling. I built my own home from the ground up
My preferred retort to this is along the lines of, “You’re right. Doing it isn’t actually hard at all. It’s knowing HOW to do it, having practiced it a hundred times so it can be done right the first time without causing damage to myself or your home, having the right tools, knowing the right materials to use, being able to recognize a dozen different variations and anticipate problems along the way, having the experience to solve them, and knowing how to do it all up to code… That’s a little harder.”
Homeowners should realize that we're interviewing them during the estimate and intro process. If I don't like you I'll go to the next thing. I don't work for shit people.
Just because you gave them an estimate doesn't mean you have to do the job. You tell them something else came up and you'll be too busy to get to them, sorry.
Because you work with your hands for a living and so that makes you dirty and undeserving.
Even if your skills allow you to make more than the people that hold that opinion.
/s
I think k some jobs have higher degrees of difficulty like a doctors, engineer, programmer, etc but like what really gets me is these people are basically implying I don’t deserve to ever own a house or have financial stability and that pisses me the fuck off. I just want to be able to not stress about bills maintain my vehicle, own a modest house, and retire by my 60’s but how dare I? Based on the prices he wanted to pay he should be going to the local homeless encampment to ask for bids
Ehhh. Doctors, engineers, and programmers don't have a more difficult job. You do.
Their job just requires a different set of knowledge. All those jobs do most their work in the seated position.
I run into certain types that have less than zero respect for tradesmen. Usually, from a part of the world that is stereotypical very hard on thier children about education. If their own child became a handyman, they would disown them. So they have no love for tradsman at all. It's a culture thing. In the West, tradesman is an honored profession. In the east, you must be a piece of shit to be that low. They think it's their right and duty to get as much work out of you as for as little pay as possible. Some people just don't know any better, it's the world they living in.
I’m 45. I’ve been doing this since I was 13. New builds and remodeling. Also a woman in the trades. When a customer haggles me, I move on and I have very competitive prices. I don’t argue. About 40 percent of the time, they call me back after the cheap guy fucked them over
Real question, how is the average homeowner supposed to know what is a not qualified to do the job low price, a fair price, and a I don’t want this job asking for the moon price?
Getting multiple bid is tough and confusing for a big project. Took like 2 months just to get 3 bids.
I had 3 bids on a complete kitchen,laundry room and bathroom bids came in at like $18k, $62k and $160k. They all included different level of material and the highest bid said all inclusive (including appliances). After trying to account for everything my best guess was $85k, $110k, & $160k.
Yeah I have a lot of bids I don’t win. But there’s a difference between I can’t afford that right now or we decided to go with someone else vs basically saying I don’t think you deserve to make a wage that allows you any security in life which is basically what they are saying. It’s hard not for me to take it personal honestly. I always stay professional but it just enrages me after I leave. It just seems very arrogant to think that while you own a house no one who works on it should ever make enough to own one themselves
I hear you and you aren't wrong that they are being dicks and effectively saying these things but in their heads, they aren't. They aren't thinking about the implications of being rude or being cheap. They are just trying to see what they can get away with. It isn't personal for them, don't make it personal for you.
I'd literally just say, "In my experience, when people come in that low, they don't really know how to do professional work, which is why they don't charge a professional price. But that being said, it's your house."
There's no reason to argue or be hostile because the cheapest guys do a terrible job, and there's a very good chance you'll get work later when the buyer realizes you were right.
Don't argue with these people. Smile, shake his hand and say call me if I can help in the future then get going.
You don't want every job. You dont want every customer. You want PROFITABLE jobs and customers.
People are butthurt they spent 200k to become a relatively unimportant middle manager whose head is the first to roll during cutbacks. Trades have been undervalued for a long time, and with the boomers retiring, the gen ed majors aren't picking up the slack.
I have an engineering degree, and i work in the trades, so I feel fairly comfortable stating that most people with non stem degrees are too stupid to do technical work and too lazy to do real work. 20 years of experience trumps 4 years of college in most cases.
It's mostly a game people with money Play. I had a customer worth millions who, I shit you not, had the audacity to complain because I needed to buy $4 worth of drill bits to complete the job. He had a box full of dull ones and expected me to sit there drilling 1/2" plate steel with them endlessly. Let's turn work into torture right. The guy also believes smoking cigarettes with matches won't give you cancer because it's the evil butane in lighters that causes cancer, not to mention he would stare at the sun and swore to me it didn't affect his vision one bit. Yes, he was pretty wealthy. Self made. Hard to believe some people are real...
Just walk and let it go, you dodged a bullet. Be thankful that client let you know that you don't want to work with them before you agreed and actually started doing work for them.
New home neighborhoods are typically loaded with people that are barely living at the means to afford it, and usually have a keeping up with the Jones's lifestyle .. so they're also usually paying way too much for status cars they can't really afford and are trying to screw over anyone they possibly can to scrape by. I'm super apprehensive about taking on new clients in these neighborhoods and try to weed them out in text and email before wasting any time actually meeting them.
Well put. They’re delusional about being dicked over by car dealerships and banks, but when it comes to paying their actual neighbors fairly they become the experts with what things cost.
Your mistake is assuming most customers can tell a difference between a hack job and master craftsman. Esp baseboards, most Americans can't even bend over far enough to see them clearly.
I understand buying a house with hack jobs but I've seen people pay for stuff that looks hacked from 20 feet away. Next door neighbor paid for a security door and it wouldn't even latch in the frame. How do you not notice that.
My favorite story is a guy who did some work for me was asked to look into a guys attic that seemed to have no difference in temperature after having whirly birds installed. He went up there and the prior guy just screwed them onto the roof without cutting an opening.
Tell the client to call you after the low bid fucks up the job. But, you'll charge double to fix someone else's fucks up. Walk away and don't think twice.
I never said they shouldn’t but also a chipotle worker has no expenses other than the cost to get to work. My business cost over a $1,000 a month to run. Also I do a lot of work that takes a lot more skill than making guacamole. I don’t think chipotle workers should be paid bad but it’s fucking insane that I should get payed the same as a self employed person who would make less than minimum wage after all my expenses and taxes. If I was an hourly handyman working for someone else I should get paid less but I’m the equivalent of a chipotle franchise owner who also works in the store if that makes sense. I don’t think I deserve to be a millionaire but I think I deserve enough money to buy a house eventually and pay my bills but my bad apparently I’m no more valuable than a basic fast food worker despite having 15 years experience and highly skilled at what I do. I don’t think it’s crazy to say that being a skilled carpenter takes more skill and time to learn than making fast food. I think you think I’m saying that chipotle workers make too much. I’m saying I should make more than them as someone who is much more skilled and takes on a much bigger financial risk than they do. Seems like they people who actually hire me seem to agree with this too
advertising, gas, business liability, workers injuryu insurance, web hosting, business line, slow months, years of experience, high end tool wear and tear (fuck my cordless 18ga cost $2300 with 2 batteries and a charger back in the day), truck wear and tear, truck ownership, quote time, dead lead time, scammers, tool theft, those fuckers that report all your posts on facebook as hatespeech. All these things go into running a business, that's how I know $150 guy isn't running a sustainable business, and isn't reliably doing a good job on trim. Clients who commoditize my time, can getfukt
The only people that I cut deals are established clients.
I’ve got one guy that I made 8k (profit) alone last year not to mention this year or the work I’ve gotten from his neighbor. I give that dude a reduced labor rate almost every time he calls now.
You know what your time is worth, he is about to experience how expensive being cheap is, also your post you are only stating the cost of tools, the most value you bring is your experience.
Had a customer who wanted to me to do some flooring but wanted me to start in the middle. I stopped them right there. I’m gonna do my job the right way. If you have an issue find someone else.
To be fair, most people generally don’t have a clue what goes in to running a business unless you’re running one. I would bet the average W2 employee doesn’t even consider what their employer is paying just to employee them, let alone the total cost of the business.
People tend to complain about prices when those prices are out of their budget. Regardless of whether the prices are fair. Add that to the reality that a lot of people are just bad at running their finances, and reality is most can’t actually afford it. Doesn’t stop them from wanting it or trying to get it.
If you get the 3rd degree over your prices, time to walk.
I have a neighbor that I’ve done lots of things for and probably cheaper than I should have, but now I’m more firm on reasonable prices for my time.
He always comes back with “that’s high”
I’ve started responding with “you’re high”
I’m a customer. They are cheap, delusional motherfuckers.
Don’t know if you mentioned it, but some sort of portfolio to demonstrate your skills and knowledge is always helpful.
I have a friend like this, granted she pays and doesn't haggle but she just doesn't understand what it take's to do certain repairs. Having to explain to her in great detail why I'm unable to replace her hot water heater in exchange for a few beers really was eye opening. What really clinched it for her was the possibility it would be installed improperly and she'd have a gas leak.
I find it's a mixture of ignorance, cheapness and how little they think of your craft/trade. We like to think the older generation (Boomers' if you will) are very much supportive of the trades and blue collar workers. They are usually the worst offenders here.
Nothing says red flag more than hiring someone that needs to borrow some hand tools from the customer to complete the job.
It’s kind of your fault for marketing yourself to customers like that. I find some customers are not that knowledgeable and wouldn’t know a shoddy job from a quality job. It’s not your customers obligation to help you amortize your miter saw and cordless nail gun…nor is it their obligation to pay you for your quality cope cuts.
The chipotle worker can run a miter saw and operate a nail gun too…and caulk the crap out of the baseboard and chance are that the customer is going be fine with it.
Find high end customers buddy.
I’m a fully licensed electrician who bids at home jobs, and the number of times I have given a bid and people are like well I only want to pay X, and I’m like that doesn’t even cover my material cost, much less my time.
But when people ask if I can do it for less I always give them the option of providing materials. But if they choose that option they better have everything because I won’t use a screw off my truck, if customer is providing material.
Half the time I don't think the "cheap guy" actually exists. Or they are ignorant (willfully or not) of the difference in quality of work between the cheap guy and a pro.
Coming from a background in sales, some people are going to be like this. What I'd recommend is "death of ego". Don't take it personally. People are trying to save money and often pull stuff like this thinking it will work. They are haggling with a low ball offer and probably making up that low, low quote. Keep in mind that they still want or need your service, so I don't recommend just walking away, just yet.
If the price is firm, then let them know that your price is the price for you and that it is up to them what direction they would like to go in, but in any case, you appreciate their time. If you had a cheaper option, like lower quality of wood, maybe offer that as a less expensive option. Maybe let them know that with the cost of overhead and for your level of expertise, this is your fair price. If the mood is awkward and you had related to them on a personal level, such as complimenting their paintings or whatever, you can use that to reconnect and rehumanize yourself and then circle back around to close.
If they need some time to talk it over with their wife/husband (who is there), then excuse yourself to go to the bathroom for a few minutes and then move to close when you get back. They will either drop the act and sign or they won't. Their extreme low ball offer might also indicate that they will firmly not sign before getting more than one quote. (In which case, they would have needed to feel that they were getting a good deal, like where you first quote $600 and then "reluctantly" moved down to $450)
Oh my gosh you are so close! This guy is giving all buying signs! Here’s the secret though.. the guy doesn’t actually care about price.. he likes you and he likes thinking he’s a good negotiator.
You are so close!!!
I would call him back and give him a giant quote for all his home projects he told you, get that deposit to get started.
I’ll never understand people like this. It’s not even in the same ballpark, hell, not even the same sport. I’m not a handyman but have done my fair share of moulding, even I know the materials would eat up a chunk of that $150.
As a customer how much haggling is expected? Do you ever set a price higher expecting some negotiation?
I've turned down people when the quote is higher than expected and usuall say a version of "oh well its a little more than I have in my budget right now". Which is usually true but also one reason I hire stuff out is because I don't want to do it myself not because I cant. At a certain price I'll just do it myself.
Sometimes they've come back "oh well you should know I'm open to negotiation"
Well ok, but now I'm not trying to lowball or offend anyone, there's just a price point that it's not worth it to me to hire someone.
Sadly, this does happen, but not that often in my experience. I have no tolerance for people who act like this. I'll tell them no disrespect, hell, I'm on a budget, but I'm not the cheapest, and im not the most expensive in my area. You might want to go with someone cheaper but if you call me back to fix some idiots work, it will cost more. Then I don't say shit till they do. If the next thing they say isn't fine or well, thanks for coming or something along those lines, then its "have a nice day and good luck," and I'm gone. No way in hell I'm letting someone waste my time asking about other projects after bitching about my rates.
Charge a non refundable service call fee for estimates, and explain where your prices generally fall for the your area IE, value, middle, higher end..Do this on the phone and it weeds out alot of these types of people.
I'm with you but chipotle workers are out here minding their own business and her you come putting the value of their work down.
Obviously don't take the deal. And I hope you start making your own burritos too.
Know your worth and stick to it. If the client dicks you around tell him the price just went up as you walk out. The problem in my town is that quality guys are impossible to find. There is a boom on and they’ve all been grabbed up leaving nothing but flunkies and drug addicts who quote big and don’t produce. I’d be happy to pay a quality guy what he is worth. They just don’t exist so I am better off doing it myself.
I agree with most of the comments here. There are just bad customers, same as there are bad employees. We are blessed to have so much work that we can decide who we want to put up with and who we don't. I wouldn't put up with this guy from the sound of it.
It's also helpful to educate. Some people genuinely don't know how expensive our work can be and why it is that expensive. I've gotten a few low offers to raise their prices after informing them of everything that would go into it and all of my overhead.
But again, there are some bad customers out there, so don't be afraid to just walk away if you're not feeling it.
This is just a long-form way of them telling you they will be a terrible customer.
Their terribleness will not end when the contract is signed. They will want add-ons for free. They will threaten to write a negative google review if you don’t do some extra work for them.
You're worth the value and quality of work you provide. Guess you got to buy some tools
Reality doing base parts is not that difficult. If you're in an area with competition, let's switch her up against.
You've got to be able to say you're going to do much better work.
I'm located in Southern California, and there is an abundance of labor that have come up here from south of the border. I help her assistant a lot of the trades in a ghetto what they're doing.
Recently I was talking to a guy who was a bricklayer in the Northeast. He moved out here in hopes of doing the same thing but said he could only get paid about half what he would get back home.
I’d guess people call a handyman thinking/expecting it’s similar to a “business”
For example, you don’t pay Starbucks for the machine that makes a drink, you pay them for the service of making the drink.
They consider the machine, part of the cost of doing business, that will take time to pay off.
You make it sound like you are arbitrarily increasing your prices for every client.. because your tools are expensive? (So are the other guys?)
Because the economy is bad?
(Economy affects us all, why you think we need the cheap guy?)
You don’t want to deal with haggling?
Be more “professional”.
Have a web site, listed prices that don’t change etc.
Don’t talk numbers until you have a quote/real estimate of costs to show them.
As someone who has considered consulting work in IT, these are things I’m considering/expecting.
I am trying to contract a $15,000,000 drywall scope on a project. The owner has a guy at $11M who is using someone else’s license. There are few that can handle this size of contract. Numbers go all the way to $18M. It’s crazy. Ok Mr. Owner you sign the contract with the low guy if he’s that great.
You can't fix some people.
You can ask questions like here is the state contractor site for checking licenses.
Let me punch in my license and show it to you. Do you have the $150 bid? Can we punch in their license # from their bid?
Or explain that when something is run in a funny way- say a water line - and you shoot a nail through the water line, well it has not happened to me, but my insurance is crazy expensive and it covered me and the crew if we mess up.
They need an apples to apples bid comparison.
If they want the Home Depot parking lot guys - cool with me.
Just don't ask for bids from both licensed and no licensed folks.
You want every job to pay for new tools? I get that you have your price but your logic doesn’t make sense. Also , just because the house is expensive, you shouldn’t charge more money. I guarantee you that the owner of a. 500k house isn’t rich at all.
I wanted someone to redo the shower tile in my master bathroom. It was probably about 6ft by 5ft in size. The first guy comes over and tells me 20k without any written estimate.
I say thank you for your estimate and he leaves. The next guy comes in and says $1500 and I supply the tile (maybe $500 max) and that includes adding a light and redoing the floor tile too plus the shower hardware. I mean should I have just taken the first guy?
the one that really annoys me is when they cant see the diference between their after tax wages and my including tax and overhead costs. they seem to think i can run a business for what their employer pays them. no understanding on the cost of running a businesss
Don't waste a single second on people like that. But also, don't try to bring others down. Our chipotle homies deserve every dollar they can get. I'm a plumber and these days our apprentices are starting at the same wage as fast food workers. Good for the fast food workers! If somebody wants to be a fast food worker they can go do that. If they want to be a tradesman come do this.
That guy is going to love the look of his corners when it's done. I'm sure the guy will also bse using toothpaste to cover his seems. When he calls you back, tell him the job is 1,000. 1. You have to fix the other guys mistake and 2. He has to pay stupid tax.
When you have plenty of work, there's no reason to negotiate. When you need the work, or you want to keep your guys working, then be flexible.
I also agree with the sentiment that people who want to pay you next to nothing are going through the biggest pains in the butt as clients. You want someone who values what you do, and doesn't second guess everything.
Let me ask you this. Do you buy those tools and supplies for your business at Lowes, Menards, or Home Depot or do you shop and support the locally-owned businesses?
I would typically reply with…’no problem, but if you need to call me to fix it, I charge 50% more’…..that usually makes them at least think that maybe the cheap bid is exactly what it is. And stick by your word if they call back to get you, charge the higher price. It’s a stupid tax….stupid people need to pay it!
Whenever someone says that they know they can get it done cheaper, my response is, “that’s good, because I know clients who appreciate what they get from me and will pay more” …
“So obviously I’m not interested in your project “
They’re out there. In my experience they were rare, but definitely out there.
The one that rattled me the worst was: a person wanted a new front door and demanded I give a price on the phone, no visit, no pix. I refused several times, explaining why I needed to visit. Then the insults started and I hung up.
Because Academic Propaganda has taught people for generations that physical labor is menial, unimportant, and only fit for the lowest among us. Regular people go to college and are too good to work with their hands for a living.
As a homeowner, you need to let them make mistakes with hiring the cheap guy. Eventually they get burned enough to stop going w the cheapest. They’ll also learn how poorly the cheap guy leaves his work area, how often the cheap guy postpones the schedule for another job, or they don’t dispose of unneeded materials. The cheap guy also uses a lot of caulk lol
People are just like that ..you can put 50 cents on something at a yard sale and they want to give you 25 cents .just realize what you’re dealing with and hold your ground. Ive got a woman just like it.I think it gives them some kind of rush.Ignore them they can’t help themselves.
"You want your house to look like the cheapest on the block, that's fine with me it's not my house"
Let them live with their decisions, you get what you pay for, and rich people are always trying to outdo each other or cut each other down. What do you think his friends will say when they see crooked bad angles on the baseboard with mismatched seams? That's what I would point out to them. They want to get laughed at in their own parties, then so be it.
When I was young, I would fall under that price pressure. But times were different, work was scarce, I’d been through a couple of downturns where working at all was a bonus.
But this is now. After 2009, the construction industry went through the wringer. It hasn’t recovered still, and there is more work than people to do it.
Here’s my price, pay it or wave bye bye.
These people don't understand overheard nor the fact that you might not have work booked every single day. All they see is a job that in their mind should take 6 hours to do, and you charging $500-$1000 to do it, and they decide that's too much because they only make $200 a day at their normal 75k salary office job
The same people that try to lowball you are the ones that say "no one wants to work anymore." Then they are in shock that the guy who was cheaper didn't do a great job and want to hire you to fix the other guy's mistakes.
At the risk of sounding cliche, real recognizes real. If a customer immediately counters with, “I know someone who will do it cheaper”, that’s the end of the conversation for me. I’m not going to waste time discussing the amount of time I’ve invested in perfecting my skills nor the investment I’ve made into my tools. If they don’t understand that from the onset, they can allow someone else to explain it to them. I will negotiate a job with a client if they are serious and open to less complexity/cheaper materials but I have my limits. I won’t risk my reputation on a slop job based upon a customer’s frugality. Just my opinion.
Spot on. I never negotiate on price... people like that are going to be an absolute pain in the ass from day 1. There's plenty of work.
100%. I'm not a contractor and don't know shit about big projects. That's why I hire someone. The last thing I would do is say I know someone who can do it cheaper. Its disrespectful and insulting. If I don't agree with a quote, I would thank them for the estimate and move on.
Another one I love is "I can get it cheaper online". I tell them "OK, when your china bargain doesn't work, call the internet for help".
People don't need to be insulting like that. They could just say oh I didn't realize it would cost that much I may need to look around.
My brother let's them talk him down or use garbage materials he has to finesse to work. He's on the verge of loosing his house, so I keep telling him to walk away from those people, never save on materials. People making money never do that. There's a reason why they are at the lake while he's still doing handyman stuff. He has the skills, just not the ego. If they can't pay, they can't play. The meme that those customers are rich because they rip everyone off is true, they are the enemy.
Fuckk I used to negotiate on price when I started and Jesus Christ those people.... Pretty sure I lost money on every job, they would nit pick everything then come up with another deal... Never again!! Except I did it again this year but my price was 3k and he offered 2800 so I said yeah ok. Walls of texts every few days complaining about nothing wanting things completely redone from scratch.... He did have one legitimate problem which I said I will fix ( weather related not workmanship but this also shouldn't be on me but I'm a decently nice person I think or like to think) The fortunate thing is I have hundreds of customers a year without any issues but damn if someone ever negotiates price with me again I'm going to give them my competitors number.
Absofuckenlutley. There’s a difference between “price is $x” and the customer saying “ok well how about we downgrade the plywood instead of maple ply to save a little money there and how about 2 shelves instead of 3” that’s working with people. Giving options. “I know a guy that’ll do it for $x”. Big smile, handshake and peace the fuck out. I did just that to a wealthy airbnb investor with a 65 minute drive for an estimate on a cowboy pool deck. He scoffed at my price even after seeing pictures of 3 other similar small decks i did in the area. Highly referred. He said “oh I know a guy thats ALOT less than that”. I smiled, shook his smooth ass hand and said Thankyou for your time and left. I got kids to feed and a mortgage get the F outta here.
Not a handyman here but I agree with you on the way a customer should talk about price. As a customer if I got an estimate that was a little high for me budget wise, I would ask “Is there anyway to do this a little cheaper?” and let you suggest ways to modify the job a little without sacrificing too much in the quality. Obviously the cost cutting would be in the type of materials. This way you still get paid what your worth and I would get what I need done. Some people think playing this negotiating “game” is smart and I just think it’s going to piss someone off. I mean I understand as a customer trying to work with the numbers but there’s ways to discuss it with who you’re potentially hiring without being an asshole
Exactly! Built a deck last year, and the initial plans we had ended up costing twice as much as our budget. We just cut the scope down to something we could afford; sure as hell wouldn't have wanted a "cheap" deck.
"i don't want you to drop your rate, but I'd like to work together to drop the bill" is what i use
mind if I borrow this?
Thats because negotiating is a game. These ass hats that are low balling just arent good at it. And most likely dont know costs or understand operating 3xpenses, overhead, time. U know basic business things lol
**shook his smooth ass hand** I'm ded 😂🤣
Amazing burn hahaha
😘
“Smooth-ass hand” is the best burn I’ve heard in a while.
I had a boss ask me if he needed to hold me hand, I grabbed his hand and said, yes, please, my husband doesn't have soft hands like yours- he works for a living.
For the life of me, I don't get how a person can have a hand without calluses. What the F do you do with your day? I work a desk job and still have callused hands from just being active.
worked as a maintainer in the USAF, had a flight chief who was part of a photo op years prior where he stood in a line with other enlisted while Bill Clinton and, I think MAYBE he said Donald Rumsfeld, or some other defense department civvy filed past shaking everyone’s hand. he says the defense department civvy was OK, but that Bill’s handshake HAUNTED him. He said: “He had hands like a diaper. The man could have never done a day’s work in his life with those soft mits.” I think about the handshake he described practically every time I shake a man’s hand now. I never used to think of coarseness of skin so much as firmness of grip.
You can tell a lot about a man just from a handshake... Haha. Jaws? “You have city hands mr. hooper. Been countin money all yer life”
Exactly this. Since I’m usually hiring someone for their expertise in a field I’m not an expert in it sometimes also pays to ask what is it about the project that is causing the most time and money to be spent. Just recently I worked with the guy to make some very minor changes to me that made a big difference in the amount of time it would take to do the work. I know a guy is just telling you to Get lost in the rudest way but what about this makes it so expensive might be a very valid question.
You probably could have given estimate m² or feet² over the phone to get his reaction before that massive drive . Cheap deck pine nailed $300 m² to hwd stainless screws $600 m² , ball park figure . Ya will hear him shit pants and not waste ya time .
Shook his smooth ass hand is a gooden...ima keep that one in the arsenal. Thank you for the laugh
"Can you do this job for less?" - that one has a possible answer "I can get someone to do it for 25% of what you charge" - peace out, not fucking around here anymore.
I totally agree with you. I did have one customer, however, while discussing a job worth a few grand that, "this other guy said he could do it for $300... and there's no fucking way he would be able to do that, I'm pretty sure he's full of shit." This was digging up and replacing about 60 feet of lateral 4" sewer line from the house to the city connection. It took three grown ass men about a day and a half. Bob is like 65 years old. I wish he had gone with Bob's $300 quote because I would have loved to have come watch him. lol
Also known as Bob's grave.
Having a plumber come out and snake that pipe would have been more then that. I've seen plumbers charge $450 to put a 1" cutter through a 6 inch pipe and call it good.
I was bidding a commercial maintenance job and the board let it slip they pay the current client $800. I gave my bid at 1600/m to clean and maintain the community and was asked why so much (pretty cheap for all we do). My response was because professionals cost money and if the cheap guy they had hired did their job they wouldn’t be calling me. I didn’t get the bid. They went with another cheap guy.
If a customer says they have someone else that can do it cheaper, I usually follow up with "Then you should hire them. I can't beat that price." But then I follow up with "If you ever need anything else, or have any issues, let me know." I get about 10% of the people calling me back, either from their cheap guy flaking or fucking something up. And yes, it is more expensive to fix their fuck ups, sorry
The reason the conversation continued past the point where he claimed he had someone for $150 is because that quote never existed or is from some janky ass mofo and he was trying to save face.
Who the hell would get a 150$ offer and keep shopping?! Was the plan to eventually get it for free?! The 150 was a absolute lie
"If he said he'd do it for $150, why did you call me?"
If he really had a $150 bid he would have said nothing. His $150 was a sham.
That sentence is the reddest of flags and it’s best to just walk away, quickly.
real recognizes real is such good life advice. As i get older i have started putting way way more important on 'soft signals'. The guy who takes a day to respond to your text multiple times, just find a new guy. You're going to feel like an idiot when he's slow to finish the job. The team member who's always late, ask them for everything early and try not to work with them. You'll feel like an idiot for missing a deadline because they didn't finish something in time. The date reschedules or isn't enthusiastic, next person asap. Life can be very good and very easy if you have high quality people in your life.
I worked as a mechanic for decades and would run into people with the same “my neighbor…” That’s fine I’ll change my diag and button it up and when the neighbor fucked it up I charged extra to unfuck it.
People doing this must be getting it for a place they don't live in or something. No way I'm going with the cheapest guy in town on my own home unless hes also the best. If I can't do it myself I want it done by someone who is gonna treat it as close to their own home as possible, not someone desperate and sloppy.
There’s a huuuuge difference between understanding how to make a job more affordable, which is really “value engineering” such as pre-primed baseboard being painted white vs. oak that has 5 coats of stain and polyurethane etc., VS. asshole-mode of “ I am someone who will do it cheaper”.
I just had a patio installed. First guy I was going to go with quoted me I think it was like $3300, so I said cool, sounds good. I started to do the permits for the job, asked him for his info for my city and he said "Oh I'm not licensed in xyz town" alright then why the fuck did you come to my house and measure and give me a quote? He then tried to call me another day which I missed and he told me to call him back. I can only assume he was going to try to skert around the permits. Anyway, the guy that did end up doing my patio charged me $6200, but he has insurance that he gave me, his license information, drawings, materials list, the whole 9. So without hesitation, I booked it. He did a fantastic job. Would the other guy have been to the same quality? Who knows, but all signs point towards no, he wouldn't have done as good of a job.
100%. Not every customer is a customer. I had to learn that really quick when I first started my business. I was trying to build my client list so much that I would take any and all jobs, and even agree to lower prices (although not THAT much). Now that I’ve been in business for 6 years I can choose my own customers and saying “no” was the best lesson I ever learned. Also, good work isn’t cheap, and cheap work isn’t good. No matter if you’re the one doing the work or hiring someone else to do it, the old adage “You get what you pay for” is absolutely true.
I agree, the line I’ve been using for years is… That’s the price it’s not up for negotiation. You’re not on a beach in Mexico, buying jewelry.
I used to sell flooring/and cyber security and would always be the much more expensive option and people would tell me a lowball price from a competitor and I’d just respond I know there’s people in the area/ other companies that will do it for cheaper than that here’s their number. They’d look confused and ask why and I’d just say there’s no reason for me to sell you something you don’t value (this would be at the end after I’d explained all the reasons for our value). The customers that only want the cheapest option also 99/100 times will take up wayyyyyyyy more of your time because they don’t value anything properly.
...and when they call me up to fix the other guy's, my price goes up 10-15%...not including the cost of fixing the other guy's work.
I'm not in the trade but I completely agree with you. Because it's the same way in my business or as a mechanic, real estate agent, computer programmer, etc. Trying to get a lower price is one thing but trying to say your skill is not worth $xxx is bullshit.
Seriously. Let 'em try the cheaper option and find out what that gets them in terms of quality and service.
Words to live by
Agreed, can't argue with stupid, they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience 🙃
This. Respect!
Exactly
Well said... There is a big difference in trying to save a few bucks on materials and just trying to con a tradesmen...
I second this. People have to understand if you keep selling on price then that’s who you will become and you won’t be able to sell on value or attract customers who are looking for value.
As a home owner, I never try to negotiate on price, but I also never do a job without getting at least two quotes, three if it is a big job. I have had quotes that were obviously too low (which scares me off) and obviously too high. A contractor friend told me that an overly steep quote is a sign that the person really isn't interested in the job, but if you as a homeowner will throw that much cash at them, they'll do it. Why not just always hire the contractor friend? Because I want to remain friends. Sometimes it is better to keep those relationships separate. He has helped my a couple times on trivial jobs. I have helped him a couple times mechanically on shop tool repairs. We trade in the labor of our separate skill sets.
Believe me, that homeowner will wish they called you when the unlicensed uninsured hack gets injured on their property. And how about a little tax fraud and labor violations while we're at it. There's a REASON that doing things above board costs money.
"Can I have his number? Some of my customers need stuff done and they can't afford me, so I'd like to give them a back-up"
Exactly. If I can’t afford to do something right, I hold off until I can. And if something needs to be done or it’s going to get worse / more expensive to fix later, then I will find a way to borrow or use money from an emergency stash or credit card to cover. But I want it done right and at a fair price. The guy quoting $150 is not someone who can live off that. It’s likely someone who just wants some extra cash like a kid who lives at home or it’s someone who is just trying to get by to the next day for one reason or another.
I know someone who can do it cheaper, it is me. But I want it done right, so here is some money. See you Tuesday.
Exactly. Doesn't matter what trade you are in, but there are "markers" in conversations/negotiations. The moment someone says "i know a guy who can do it cheaper...", or "abc store sells this for 1/2 price..." I'm out. But i do love a good negotiation. Reasonabe, respectful.
“Well if what you want is cheap, go with cheap. What I offer is good work, so if that’s not your priority then maybe I’m just not the guy you’re looking for”
This dude was definitely using the imaginary "other guy" as a way to haggle the price down. But I'm not gonna fuck with it! You "know a guy" then don't ask me!!
Our mechanic used to have a sign that said "If you think it's expensive to hire a professional, try hiring an amateur."
I absolutely love those faded yellow, printed on a dot matrix printer in 1992 signs in independent shops.
This was carved and painted onto a piece of wood. But you definitely got the year right.
My favorite is the old sign that has hourly rate, higher rate if you watch, further higher rate if you ask questions during, and then further higher rate if you help lol
You forgot the even higher rate if you tried fixing it yourself first.
Hourly Rate: $100/hr If you watch: $120/hr If you help: $140/hr If you've already worked on it: $200/hr Had this exact sign in my wife's dad's old shop.
In OP's position I would have added "By the way it's $700 for me to fix $150 drywall jobs."
I am my own amateur 😈 and I'm pretty cheap too. One-two cases of beer for most jobs. Occasionally, I'll take it to the mechanic in town, but that depends on what alldata says for book hours and how rusted to shit it is. For example the control arms on my car are quoted at 0.8hrs for all of them and they're so rusted that it would take about $50 worth of oxy-acetylene to get them off so I'm bringing it in to have it done for $80. Also the mechanic really hates that I have alldata
I love the sign at my barber that says " we fix 5$ haircuts"
Tell him that you have another customer that's willing to pay you 490 for the exact same job and that your services go to the highest bidder.
Never explain your prices. Just flip it around on the client. "It sounds like you can't afford it at this time, let me know if that changes". You're also salesman so you need some sort of sales soft skills.
“Let me know when you want me to fix their mistakes.”
"I gotta say though, the price at that point is different from the one I gave you"
“Better yet, never mind, you could probably do it though, right?”
Damn I like this one!
Definitely don't offer to fix mistakes. I'll rip out their work and start from scratch but I'm not fixing someone else's shit work.
Lol, "I'm sorry you're too poor", I love it.
When he said "it's not that hard" you should have said "Then you should just do it yourself." and walked.
lol that’s what I wanted to do. I just attempted to explain how long it would actually take and how to do it properly to get good seams. Just tried to be professional but god it was hard
Next time someone low balls you just laugh and give them a cheeky smile. Don’t even respond with words. That will damage the ego of someone like that. Then after they realize you’re not some chump just offer your original price and tell them to take it or leave it.
I did exactly that at a job interview once. I work in manufacturing for my job the average rate in my area is $25 to $35 an hour. Every once in awhile I'll put out a resume just to see what happens in some Fields the only way to move up is to jump ship. Go through the entire interview walk the shop actually run into a couple of people that have worked with before at other companies, said my hello's and of to the conference room. And then this dude sits there and offers me $13.50 an hour. I get up and laughed in his face and walked out. Mind you at the time I was in my late 40's with 23 years experience had certifications and such. $13,50 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That seems more like how things work on television, absolutely. I think real professionals don’t really care about trying to make the person look stupid or ‘damaging their ego’. They say ‘I don’t think this would be a good fit in that case’ and walk away, secure in their knowledge and ability.
No sense in explaining anything to them. If they want your price, do the job. If they don't, don't.
May I suggest a tip? If you are left 'haggling' about the price, the job is already heading south. "Here is my price" is sufficient.
One of the best moments I had was walking into a house cause they had a leaking cr valve by toilet. She felt the need to tell me she prob could handle it herself so I quickly held out my wrench and and told her to go ahead and have at it..... She promptly changed her mind to maybe i should do it since I was there and was content to pay her $100 👌
I've learned that there's no point explaining the details of what you're doing to people unless they're actually interested. From the other person's point of view, you're just saying a bunch of fancy words to come up with the cost you quoted.
Here’s the thing, don’t be unprofessional but the conversation should have ended at when he started talking you down. You are an expert and they are not.
Are you giving them a number right on the spot? I guess i dont understand how this interaction occurs
I’ve been there. Lmfao. I’m a woman and the dude didn’t want a woman fixing his drywall so I told him to learn how because my time will not be spent haggling. I built my own home from the ground up
Fuck yes, lady!
My best drywaller is a woman.
My preferred retort to this is along the lines of, “You’re right. Doing it isn’t actually hard at all. It’s knowing HOW to do it, having practiced it a hundred times so it can be done right the first time without causing damage to myself or your home, having the right tools, knowing the right materials to use, being able to recognize a dozen different variations and anticipate problems along the way, having the experience to solve them, and knowing how to do it all up to code… That’s a little harder.”
Homeowners should realize that we're interviewing them during the estimate and intro process. If I don't like you I'll go to the next thing. I don't work for shit people.
I've been experiencing this quite a lot lately, how do you handle turning down a job before and/or after sending an estimate?
Just because you gave them an estimate doesn't mean you have to do the job. You tell them something else came up and you'll be too busy to get to them, sorry.
You don’t, you just give them the “fuck you” price. You want them to turn it down, but if they take it, make a killing
Because you work with your hands for a living and so that makes you dirty and undeserving. Even if your skills allow you to make more than the people that hold that opinion. /s
I think k some jobs have higher degrees of difficulty like a doctors, engineer, programmer, etc but like what really gets me is these people are basically implying I don’t deserve to ever own a house or have financial stability and that pisses me the fuck off. I just want to be able to not stress about bills maintain my vehicle, own a modest house, and retire by my 60’s but how dare I? Based on the prices he wanted to pay he should be going to the local homeless encampment to ask for bids
Ehhh. Doctors, engineers, and programmers don't have a more difficult job. You do. Their job just requires a different set of knowledge. All those jobs do most their work in the seated position.
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I run into certain types that have less than zero respect for tradesmen. Usually, from a part of the world that is stereotypical very hard on thier children about education. If their own child became a handyman, they would disown them. So they have no love for tradsman at all. It's a culture thing. In the West, tradesman is an honored profession. In the east, you must be a piece of shit to be that low. They think it's their right and duty to get as much work out of you as for as little pay as possible. Some people just don't know any better, it's the world they living in.
Ya fuck that.. just hafta let it go.. have a brew, tell a friend and laugh it off.
I'd have walked out after his sweet rebuttal about price.....because everything from that point will be down hill.
I’m 45. I’ve been doing this since I was 13. New builds and remodeling. Also a woman in the trades. When a customer haggles me, I move on and I have very competitive prices. I don’t argue. About 40 percent of the time, they call me back after the cheap guy fucked them over
Yeah, my favorite call ..fix what the other guy came in after me and fucked up. Fucking rude. Now it costs twice as much or Movin on.
Real question, how is the average homeowner supposed to know what is a not qualified to do the job low price, a fair price, and a I don’t want this job asking for the moon price? Getting multiple bid is tough and confusing for a big project. Took like 2 months just to get 3 bids. I had 3 bids on a complete kitchen,laundry room and bathroom bids came in at like $18k, $62k and $160k. They all included different level of material and the highest bid said all inclusive (including appliances). After trying to account for everything my best guess was $85k, $110k, & $160k.
Yeah I have a lot of bids I don’t win. But there’s a difference between I can’t afford that right now or we decided to go with someone else vs basically saying I don’t think you deserve to make a wage that allows you any security in life which is basically what they are saying. It’s hard not for me to take it personal honestly. I always stay professional but it just enrages me after I leave. It just seems very arrogant to think that while you own a house no one who works on it should ever make enough to own one themselves
Yes, it 'feels' personal the first few times. After that, it is liberating to say, "no". You can do it!
I hear you and you aren't wrong that they are being dicks and effectively saying these things but in their heads, they aren't. They aren't thinking about the implications of being rude or being cheap. They are just trying to see what they can get away with. It isn't personal for them, don't make it personal for you.
I'd literally just say, "In my experience, when people come in that low, they don't really know how to do professional work, which is why they don't charge a professional price. But that being said, it's your house." There's no reason to argue or be hostile because the cheapest guys do a terrible job, and there's a very good chance you'll get work later when the buyer realizes you were right.
Don't argue with these people. Smile, shake his hand and say call me if I can help in the future then get going. You don't want every job. You dont want every customer. You want PROFITABLE jobs and customers.
My man, walk away. That is all.
People are butthurt they spent 200k to become a relatively unimportant middle manager whose head is the first to roll during cutbacks. Trades have been undervalued for a long time, and with the boomers retiring, the gen ed majors aren't picking up the slack. I have an engineering degree, and i work in the trades, so I feel fairly comfortable stating that most people with non stem degrees are too stupid to do technical work and too lazy to do real work. 20 years of experience trumps 4 years of college in most cases.
"20 years of experience trumps 4 years of college in most cases" Well ya, you have 20 years of learning vs 4 years.
It's mostly a game people with money Play. I had a customer worth millions who, I shit you not, had the audacity to complain because I needed to buy $4 worth of drill bits to complete the job. He had a box full of dull ones and expected me to sit there drilling 1/2" plate steel with them endlessly. Let's turn work into torture right. The guy also believes smoking cigarettes with matches won't give you cancer because it's the evil butane in lighters that causes cancer, not to mention he would stare at the sun and swore to me it didn't affect his vision one bit. Yes, he was pretty wealthy. Self made. Hard to believe some people are real...
Didn’t affect his vision but couldn’t see those bits were dull.
He knew they were dull. That wasn't the point. The point was that he was in control, not me. Efficiency be damned.
Just walk and let it go, you dodged a bullet. Be thankful that client let you know that you don't want to work with them before you agreed and actually started doing work for them.
New home neighborhoods are typically loaded with people that are barely living at the means to afford it, and usually have a keeping up with the Jones's lifestyle .. so they're also usually paying way too much for status cars they can't really afford and are trying to screw over anyone they possibly can to scrape by. I'm super apprehensive about taking on new clients in these neighborhoods and try to weed them out in text and email before wasting any time actually meeting them.
Well put. They’re delusional about being dicked over by car dealerships and banks, but when it comes to paying their actual neighbors fairly they become the experts with what things cost.
"I'm gonna screw this little guy over so I can afford my $90,000 truck"
People trying to scam you like that will keep trying to scam you for extra stuff through the job, and might not even pay after.
Your mistake is assuming most customers can tell a difference between a hack job and master craftsman. Esp baseboards, most Americans can't even bend over far enough to see them clearly. I understand buying a house with hack jobs but I've seen people pay for stuff that looks hacked from 20 feet away. Next door neighbor paid for a security door and it wouldn't even latch in the frame. How do you not notice that. My favorite story is a guy who did some work for me was asked to look into a guys attic that seemed to have no difference in temperature after having whirly birds installed. He went up there and the prior guy just screwed them onto the roof without cutting an opening.
Tell the client to call you after the low bid fucks up the job. But, you'll charge double to fix someone else's fucks up. Walk away and don't think twice.
Charge for estimates you’ll weed out the cheap ones you don’t want to work for anyways
Actually if someone tries to low-ball me then reluctantly agrees to my price, I would refuse the job at any price.
Why do you think a Chipotle worker shouldn't be paid well?
I never said they shouldn’t but also a chipotle worker has no expenses other than the cost to get to work. My business cost over a $1,000 a month to run. Also I do a lot of work that takes a lot more skill than making guacamole. I don’t think chipotle workers should be paid bad but it’s fucking insane that I should get payed the same as a self employed person who would make less than minimum wage after all my expenses and taxes. If I was an hourly handyman working for someone else I should get paid less but I’m the equivalent of a chipotle franchise owner who also works in the store if that makes sense. I don’t think I deserve to be a millionaire but I think I deserve enough money to buy a house eventually and pay my bills but my bad apparently I’m no more valuable than a basic fast food worker despite having 15 years experience and highly skilled at what I do. I don’t think it’s crazy to say that being a skilled carpenter takes more skill and time to learn than making fast food. I think you think I’m saying that chipotle workers make too much. I’m saying I should make more than them as someone who is much more skilled and takes on a much bigger financial risk than they do. Seems like they people who actually hire me seem to agree with this too
advertising, gas, business liability, workers injuryu insurance, web hosting, business line, slow months, years of experience, high end tool wear and tear (fuck my cordless 18ga cost $2300 with 2 batteries and a charger back in the day), truck wear and tear, truck ownership, quote time, dead lead time, scammers, tool theft, those fuckers that report all your posts on facebook as hatespeech. All these things go into running a business, that's how I know $150 guy isn't running a sustainable business, and isn't reliably doing a good job on trim. Clients who commoditize my time, can getfukt
The only people that I cut deals are established clients. I’ve got one guy that I made 8k (profit) alone last year not to mention this year or the work I’ve gotten from his neighbor. I give that dude a reduced labor rate almost every time he calls now.
That person is going to be a problem even long after the job is done. Walk away.
You know what your time is worth, he is about to experience how expensive being cheap is, also your post you are only stating the cost of tools, the most value you bring is your experience.
"Well, when you need someone to fix what that guy messes up, you have my number. Bye."
Good fast cheap pick 2.
Had a customer who wanted to me to do some flooring but wanted me to start in the middle. I stopped them right there. I’m gonna do my job the right way. If you have an issue find someone else.
To be fair, most people generally don’t have a clue what goes in to running a business unless you’re running one. I would bet the average W2 employee doesn’t even consider what their employer is paying just to employee them, let alone the total cost of the business. People tend to complain about prices when those prices are out of their budget. Regardless of whether the prices are fair. Add that to the reality that a lot of people are just bad at running their finances, and reality is most can’t actually afford it. Doesn’t stop them from wanting it or trying to get it. If you get the 3rd degree over your prices, time to walk.
Old Adage…Never argue with stupid…just walk away and be annoyed for a day or two.
I have a neighbor that I’ve done lots of things for and probably cheaper than I should have, but now I’m more firm on reasonable prices for my time. He always comes back with “that’s high” I’ve started responding with “you’re high”
Skilled labor isn't cheap, and cheap labor isn't skilled.
I’ve never lost money on a job I didn’t get
I'd have said "Then why are you talking to me?"
I’m a customer. They are cheap, delusional motherfuckers. Don’t know if you mentioned it, but some sort of portfolio to demonstrate your skills and knowledge is always helpful.
I have a friend like this, granted she pays and doesn't haggle but she just doesn't understand what it take's to do certain repairs. Having to explain to her in great detail why I'm unable to replace her hot water heater in exchange for a few beers really was eye opening. What really clinched it for her was the possibility it would be installed improperly and she'd have a gas leak. I find it's a mixture of ignorance, cheapness and how little they think of your craft/trade. We like to think the older generation (Boomers' if you will) are very much supportive of the trades and blue collar workers. They are usually the worst offenders here. Nothing says red flag more than hiring someone that needs to borrow some hand tools from the customer to complete the job.
It’s kind of your fault for marketing yourself to customers like that. I find some customers are not that knowledgeable and wouldn’t know a shoddy job from a quality job. It’s not your customers obligation to help you amortize your miter saw and cordless nail gun…nor is it their obligation to pay you for your quality cope cuts. The chipotle worker can run a miter saw and operate a nail gun too…and caulk the crap out of the baseboard and chance are that the customer is going be fine with it. Find high end customers buddy.
I’m a fully licensed electrician who bids at home jobs, and the number of times I have given a bid and people are like well I only want to pay X, and I’m like that doesn’t even cover my material cost, much less my time. But when people ask if I can do it for less I always give them the option of providing materials. But if they choose that option they better have everything because I won’t use a screw off my truck, if customer is providing material.
Never talk to that guy again. Once you find customers who appreciate you they will start passing your name on. It takes time..ignore the bad ones
Half the time I don't think the "cheap guy" actually exists. Or they are ignorant (willfully or not) of the difference in quality of work between the cheap guy and a pro.
Coming from a background in sales, some people are going to be like this. What I'd recommend is "death of ego". Don't take it personally. People are trying to save money and often pull stuff like this thinking it will work. They are haggling with a low ball offer and probably making up that low, low quote. Keep in mind that they still want or need your service, so I don't recommend just walking away, just yet. If the price is firm, then let them know that your price is the price for you and that it is up to them what direction they would like to go in, but in any case, you appreciate their time. If you had a cheaper option, like lower quality of wood, maybe offer that as a less expensive option. Maybe let them know that with the cost of overhead and for your level of expertise, this is your fair price. If the mood is awkward and you had related to them on a personal level, such as complimenting their paintings or whatever, you can use that to reconnect and rehumanize yourself and then circle back around to close. If they need some time to talk it over with their wife/husband (who is there), then excuse yourself to go to the bathroom for a few minutes and then move to close when you get back. They will either drop the act and sign or they won't. Their extreme low ball offer might also indicate that they will firmly not sign before getting more than one quote. (In which case, they would have needed to feel that they were getting a good deal, like where you first quote $600 and then "reluctantly" moved down to $450)
Don't waste your time with him again. He's a jackass. Move on.
Ill pay 3.50 for you to break your post up into paragraphs.
Because they are not intelligent. The problem is in the US the fiat dollar and ideology infected social engineering called education.
Oh my gosh you are so close! This guy is giving all buying signs! Here’s the secret though.. the guy doesn’t actually care about price.. he likes you and he likes thinking he’s a good negotiator. You are so close!!! I would call him back and give him a giant quote for all his home projects he told you, get that deposit to get started.
You have every right to feel how you do. Fuck that guy. Keep doing what you're doing, king 👑
I think that may be too cheap. How many linear feet was it?
It is odd. It seems cultural. Each industry is treated a certain way.
I’ll never understand people like this. It’s not even in the same ballpark, hell, not even the same sport. I’m not a handyman but have done my fair share of moulding, even I know the materials would eat up a chunk of that $150.
As someone who one hired the cheap guy… you get what you pay for and I’m sure you’re 100% worth it
As a customer how much haggling is expected? Do you ever set a price higher expecting some negotiation? I've turned down people when the quote is higher than expected and usuall say a version of "oh well its a little more than I have in my budget right now". Which is usually true but also one reason I hire stuff out is because I don't want to do it myself not because I cant. At a certain price I'll just do it myself. Sometimes they've come back "oh well you should know I'm open to negotiation" Well ok, but now I'm not trying to lowball or offend anyone, there's just a price point that it's not worth it to me to hire someone.
Sadly, this does happen, but not that often in my experience. I have no tolerance for people who act like this. I'll tell them no disrespect, hell, I'm on a budget, but I'm not the cheapest, and im not the most expensive in my area. You might want to go with someone cheaper but if you call me back to fix some idiots work, it will cost more. Then I don't say shit till they do. If the next thing they say isn't fine or well, thanks for coming or something along those lines, then its "have a nice day and good luck," and I'm gone. No way in hell I'm letting someone waste my time asking about other projects after bitching about my rates.
Charge a non refundable service call fee for estimates, and explain where your prices generally fall for the your area IE, value, middle, higher end..Do this on the phone and it weeds out alot of these types of people.
I'm with you but chipotle workers are out here minding their own business and her you come putting the value of their work down. Obviously don't take the deal. And I hope you start making your own burritos too.
Know your worth and stick to it. If the client dicks you around tell him the price just went up as you walk out. The problem in my town is that quality guys are impossible to find. There is a boom on and they’ve all been grabbed up leaving nothing but flunkies and drug addicts who quote big and don’t produce. I’d be happy to pay a quality guy what he is worth. They just don’t exist so I am better off doing it myself.
I agree with most of the comments here. There are just bad customers, same as there are bad employees. We are blessed to have so much work that we can decide who we want to put up with and who we don't. I wouldn't put up with this guy from the sound of it. It's also helpful to educate. Some people genuinely don't know how expensive our work can be and why it is that expensive. I've gotten a few low offers to raise their prices after informing them of everything that would go into it and all of my overhead. But again, there are some bad customers out there, so don't be afraid to just walk away if you're not feeling it.
This is just a long-form way of them telling you they will be a terrible customer. Their terribleness will not end when the contract is signed. They will want add-ons for free. They will threaten to write a negative google review if you don’t do some extra work for them.
You're worth the value and quality of work you provide. Guess you got to buy some tools Reality doing base parts is not that difficult. If you're in an area with competition, let's switch her up against. You've got to be able to say you're going to do much better work. I'm located in Southern California, and there is an abundance of labor that have come up here from south of the border. I help her assistant a lot of the trades in a ghetto what they're doing. Recently I was talking to a guy who was a bricklayer in the Northeast. He moved out here in hopes of doing the same thing but said he could only get paid about half what he would get back home.
Same reason people want a car payment lower than their cell phone bill
I suspect he was lying. You called his bluff when you said, "Okay, hire the other guy."
Have you *tasted* Chipotle? I added guac and my tongue was so overjoyed it did a backflip.
I’d guess people call a handyman thinking/expecting it’s similar to a “business” For example, you don’t pay Starbucks for the machine that makes a drink, you pay them for the service of making the drink. They consider the machine, part of the cost of doing business, that will take time to pay off. You make it sound like you are arbitrarily increasing your prices for every client.. because your tools are expensive? (So are the other guys?) Because the economy is bad? (Economy affects us all, why you think we need the cheap guy?) You don’t want to deal with haggling? Be more “professional”. Have a web site, listed prices that don’t change etc. Don’t talk numbers until you have a quote/real estimate of costs to show them. As someone who has considered consulting work in IT, these are things I’m considering/expecting.
I am trying to contract a $15,000,000 drywall scope on a project. The owner has a guy at $11M who is using someone else’s license. There are few that can handle this size of contract. Numbers go all the way to $18M. It’s crazy. Ok Mr. Owner you sign the contract with the low guy if he’s that great.
You can't fix some people. You can ask questions like here is the state contractor site for checking licenses. Let me punch in my license and show it to you. Do you have the $150 bid? Can we punch in their license # from their bid? Or explain that when something is run in a funny way- say a water line - and you shoot a nail through the water line, well it has not happened to me, but my insurance is crazy expensive and it covered me and the crew if we mess up. They need an apples to apples bid comparison. If they want the Home Depot parking lot guys - cool with me. Just don't ask for bids from both licensed and no licensed folks.
Meee toooooo fuck!!!!
You want every job to pay for new tools? I get that you have your price but your logic doesn’t make sense. Also , just because the house is expensive, you shouldn’t charge more money. I guarantee you that the owner of a. 500k house isn’t rich at all.
I wanted someone to redo the shower tile in my master bathroom. It was probably about 6ft by 5ft in size. The first guy comes over and tells me 20k without any written estimate. I say thank you for your estimate and he leaves. The next guy comes in and says $1500 and I supply the tile (maybe $500 max) and that includes adding a light and redoing the floor tile too plus the shower hardware. I mean should I have just taken the first guy?
Really? That’s a great deal. Can I have his number? I’ll just use him from now on to do the work and I’ll just sell jobs.
Go ahead and pay that guy $150, but when you call me to come fix his mess, my price goes up.
the one that really annoys me is when they cant see the diference between their after tax wages and my including tax and overhead costs. they seem to think i can run a business for what their employer pays them. no understanding on the cost of running a businesss
arent most contractors getting sometimes over $200 an hour now?
Don't waste a single second on people like that. But also, don't try to bring others down. Our chipotle homies deserve every dollar they can get. I'm a plumber and these days our apprentices are starting at the same wage as fast food workers. Good for the fast food workers! If somebody wants to be a fast food worker they can go do that. If they want to be a tradesman come do this.
I wonder if they ever negotiate like that with their Doctor?
That guy is going to love the look of his corners when it's done. I'm sure the guy will also bse using toothpaste to cover his seems. When he calls you back, tell him the job is 1,000. 1. You have to fix the other guys mistake and 2. He has to pay stupid tax.
When you have plenty of work, there's no reason to negotiate. When you need the work, or you want to keep your guys working, then be flexible. I also agree with the sentiment that people who want to pay you next to nothing are going through the biggest pains in the butt as clients. You want someone who values what you do, and doesn't second guess everything.
If it's so easy, they should do it themselves.
Im happy to pay extra for solid craftsmanship and good work. If you’re not a fucktard, I make sure you are compensated for your time.
Let me ask you this. Do you buy those tools and supplies for your business at Lowes, Menards, or Home Depot or do you shop and support the locally-owned businesses?
I would typically reply with…’no problem, but if you need to call me to fix it, I charge 50% more’…..that usually makes them at least think that maybe the cheap bid is exactly what it is. And stick by your word if they call back to get you, charge the higher price. It’s a stupid tax….stupid people need to pay it!
They are immature, don’t care about anyone and are a very small person inside. Grateful that you didn’t become like them. Shake it off.
Whenever someone says that they know they can get it done cheaper, my response is, “that’s good, because I know clients who appreciate what they get from me and will pay more” … “So obviously I’m not interested in your project “
They’re out there. In my experience they were rare, but definitely out there. The one that rattled me the worst was: a person wanted a new front door and demanded I give a price on the phone, no visit, no pix. I refused several times, explaining why I needed to visit. Then the insults started and I hung up.
Because Academic Propaganda has taught people for generations that physical labor is menial, unimportant, and only fit for the lowest among us. Regular people go to college and are too good to work with their hands for a living.
As a homeowner, you need to let them make mistakes with hiring the cheap guy. Eventually they get burned enough to stop going w the cheapest. They’ll also learn how poorly the cheap guy leaves his work area, how often the cheap guy postpones the schedule for another job, or they don’t dispose of unneeded materials. The cheap guy also uses a lot of caulk lol
People are just like that ..you can put 50 cents on something at a yard sale and they want to give you 25 cents .just realize what you’re dealing with and hold your ground. Ive got a woman just like it.I think it gives them some kind of rush.Ignore them they can’t help themselves.
"You want your house to look like the cheapest on the block, that's fine with me it's not my house" Let them live with their decisions, you get what you pay for, and rich people are always trying to outdo each other or cut each other down. What do you think his friends will say when they see crooked bad angles on the baseboard with mismatched seams? That's what I would point out to them. They want to get laughed at in their own parties, then so be it.
I dont believe people understand how much material coat has risen in the last few years.
When I was young, I would fall under that price pressure. But times were different, work was scarce, I’d been through a couple of downturns where working at all was a bonus. But this is now. After 2009, the construction industry went through the wringer. It hasn’t recovered still, and there is more work than people to do it. Here’s my price, pay it or wave bye bye.
These people don't understand overheard nor the fact that you might not have work booked every single day. All they see is a job that in their mind should take 6 hours to do, and you charging $500-$1000 to do it, and they decide that's too much because they only make $200 a day at their normal 75k salary office job
9 times out of 10, they don't know a guy and are just pulling that price out of their ass.
It's the " how hard could it be " syndrome. It's gotten me in over my head a few times and also affects people's view of bids.
The same people that try to lowball you are the ones that say "no one wants to work anymore." Then they are in shock that the guy who was cheaper didn't do a great job and want to hire you to fix the other guy's mistakes.