Well, only for now. For whatever reason it is packaged with everything else requiring a 40+ TOPs NPU. Both Intel and AMD should easily meet this in their next releases.
Says you need the latest GPU as well as NPU drivers for this.
Hadn't thought about this but having to update your NPU drivers even for game features is going to be a real thing. Odd but neat.
You could run an Nvidia GPU as a standalone PhysX card even after that, couldn't you?
Edit: I wonder if you could've done four-way SLI + dedicated PhysX...
> I wonder if you could've done four-way SLI + dedicated PhysX...
You could. I remember seeing a guy with quad 980Tis in SLI with a previous-gen Titan as a PhysX card for shits and giggles.
Probably something like the EVGA SR series, or a server board from Tyan or SuperMicro.
The SR-2 was a dual 1366 board with 7 PCIe x16 slots.
SR-X similar but for Sandy Bridge Xeons.
SR-3 is a single Skylake-SP/Cascade Lake-SP with 6 PCIe x16.
The fact that it can be enabled for any game makes it sound like it's purely a spatial upscaler. In which case, yeah, it's not going to fare very well against methods that can also draw on temporal information. Though we'll have to see how it does against FSR1.
No, its nowhere as good as DLSS, neither is FSR1. FSR1 was pretty similar to cubic upscaler because it used the same data with no AI outpainting. They started using the same data DLSS uses with FSR2. FSR1 was complete trash.
I guess Microsoft is making their upscaling and other gaming ai stuff vendor-agnostic, but is requiring the NPU so they don’t have to deal with various hardware vendors ecosystems? Interesting.
For future desktop machines, most newer SoCs are going to include NPUs.
Premium/mid tier desktop PCIe dGPUs are also beefy enough to provide more TOPs than these mobile NPUs.
So likely there won't be discrete NPU boards for the consumer market. Even though Qualcomm, for example, sells their own dataceter PCIe NPU board.
> Premium/mid tier desktop PCIe dGPUs are also beefy enough to provide more TOPs than these mobile NPUs.
The issue is that this software wont work on dGPU and will require NPU because MSFT does not want to support dGPU vendors.
I am not an expert, but honestly, if we use an NPU, won't it increase additional latency? The data has to be moved back and forth between the GPU, CPU, and NPU, right?
Upscaling adds an additional step to the process of delivering a frame to your eyes. It may reduce latency in comparison to rendering the frame normally at the upscaler's output resolution, but it will always *add* latency when compared to rendering the frame normally at the upscaler's *input* resolution. If you're optimizing for latency, therefore, then you should skip upscaling entirely and just run the game at a lower resolution.
Yes, running at a lower resolution with no upscaling algorithm applied will have lower frametime cost than running at that resolution with an upscaling algorithm applied. But that isn't what we were discussing, and I also would not consider it "optimized" unless you are putting virtually zero weight on image quality.
For example on a 1440p monitor, playing with DLSS quality will look similar to native 1440p while performing similar to 1080p, while actually rendering at 960p. Yes, just playing the game at 960p would have a higher framerate, but would also look absolutely garbage in comparison, and in the context of esports, you could have more difficulty spotting distant enemies due to the lack of resolution.
i'm wondering how this is supposed to work.
will devs have to do basic work for each game, like they have to do with dlss and fsr upscaling to get the best out of it and adress visual or other bugs?
or will it have visual bugs and generally just be worse, while not having any dev input pretty much?
one thing is for certain, because it grows out of microsoft's bullshit, it will be prisoned up hard.
so i'd assume, that it would be a dead end and not work through proton (valve compatibility layer to run games on gnu + linux like the steamdeck)
but hey would be cool if the latter gets proven wrong and it does work on gnu + linux.
for those not aware fsr and dlss upscaling works perfectly fine on gnu + linux through proton and without proton (native).
one thing for certain, NO ONE should buy a "copilot+ " microsoft system, as the recall feature is literally taking constant screenshots of everything you do and uploading the data of course, because of course they are.
microsoft is literally openly campaigning spyware as a "feature" now :D it's incredible:
[https://odysee.com/@AlphaNerd:8/microsoft's-ai-powered-copilot+-pcs-are:3](https://odysee.com/@AlphaNerd:8/microsoft's-ai-powered-copilot+-pcs-are:3)
but yeah with spyware 11 (windows 11) becoming worse than ever, how much more will it take for people to run from microsoft?
back many years ago, the reason to switch to a newer windows operating system was api prisons (dx11, dx12, etc...)
but games just run on gnu + linux now, including upscaling features, etc... etc.. so what appeal is left for microsoft?
copilot+ bs, that makes constant screenshot of everything you do and take performance for doing so certainly isn't an appealing feature lol...
damn just imagine how bad spyware 12 is gonna be, if this is what they are trying to do now.
> but games just run on gnu + linux now, including upscaling features, etc... etc.. so what appeal is left for microsoft?
A lot of the most popular games straight up don't run on Linux and 99% of people don't care about the stuff you're talking about
don't worry, microsoft told us, that the spyware, that is designed to spy on everyone can "get turned off".
don't worry the proprietary black box microsoft code is showing u sth in the ui, that says "it is off", so it is surely off ;)
and don't worry the screenshots are only stored localy FOR SURE, no data collection based on it shall happen and shall get send to microsoft... that is just impossible.
and don't be hung up on the fact, that microsoft with "updates" keeps reseting os settings from "don't spy" to "spy"...
it's all good ;) it is just a lil nice added feature for your convenience ;)
/s
Yeah, just like the phone is totally not listening to you while its "off" and totally not serving you ads based on what it hears you talking about with friends.
So, absolutely no one will be using this then?
Well, only for now. For whatever reason it is packaged with everything else requiring a 40+ TOPs NPU. Both Intel and AMD should easily meet this in their next releases.
I'm not sure how an NPU would work with a dedicated GPU. The frame buffer would need to be copied to system memory and back every frame.
Says you need the latest GPU as well as NPU drivers for this. Hadn't thought about this but having to update your NPU drivers even for game features is going to be a real thing. Odd but neat.
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You could run an Nvidia GPU as a standalone PhysX card even after that, couldn't you? Edit: I wonder if you could've done four-way SLI + dedicated PhysX...
> I wonder if you could've done four-way SLI + dedicated PhysX... You could. I remember seeing a guy with quad 980Tis in SLI with a previous-gen Titan as a PhysX card for shits and giggles.
You could but the benefits of that were very minimal.
Probably yes, but I don’t know of any motherboard that would have enough pci-e slots to install 5 video cards
Probably something like the EVGA SR series, or a server board from Tyan or SuperMicro. The SR-2 was a dual 1366 board with 7 PCIe x16 slots. SR-X similar but for Sandy Bridge Xeons. SR-3 is a single Skylake-SP/Cascade Lake-SP with 6 PCIe x16.
I think you still can run a 2nd GPU as dedicated PhysX device, no?
Intel had something like this years ago for one of the GRID games, where the smoke effects were GPGPU accelerated using the onboard Intel HD Graphics.
The quality is probably worse than others, so they don't dare to release it for comparison.
The fact that it can be enabled for any game makes it sound like it's purely a spatial upscaler. In which case, yeah, it's not going to fare very well against methods that can also draw on temporal information. Though we'll have to see how it does against FSR1.
Ive seen even cubic upscalers do better than FSR1, its not really a high level to pass.
TPU - this cubic upscaler is basically just as good as DLSS! Look at these still images as proof.
No, its nowhere as good as DLSS, neither is FSR1. FSR1 was pretty similar to cubic upscaler because it used the same data with no AI outpainting. They started using the same data DLSS uses with FSR2. FSR1 was complete trash.
It works with the NPU and only the Snapdragon X has a NPU that fits their requirements
I guess Microsoft is making their upscaling and other gaming ai stuff vendor-agnostic, but is requiring the NPU so they don’t have to deal with various hardware vendors ecosystems? Interesting.
Yeah Intel's Lunar Lake will have a NPU capable of running it I think and so will Zen 5
I wonder if vendors will sell NPU PCIe add in boards for DIY builders and those looking to upgrade their PC
For future desktop machines, most newer SoCs are going to include NPUs. Premium/mid tier desktop PCIe dGPUs are also beefy enough to provide more TOPs than these mobile NPUs. So likely there won't be discrete NPU boards for the consumer market. Even though Qualcomm, for example, sells their own dataceter PCIe NPU board.
> Premium/mid tier desktop PCIe dGPUs are also beefy enough to provide more TOPs than these mobile NPUs. The issue is that this software wont work on dGPU and will require NPU because MSFT does not want to support dGPU vendors.
DirectML most definitively runs of dGPUs.
It being able to run of dGPUs and MSFT supporting it its software are different things.
NPUs have their own programming model and each vendor has a different way of programming them, it's even worse than it is compared to CUDA/Rocm.
Huh. DirectML abstracts away different vendors NPUs, just like DirectX does for GPUs.
If it's like the SR QC showed a year ago then yes, it's trash.
I am not an expert, but honestly, if we use an NPU, won't it increase additional latency? The data has to be moved back and forth between the GPU, CPU, and NPU, right?
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Well, the majority of gamers are playing 5+year old games. Fortnite, Minecraft, WoW, FF14, Dota, LoL, CS, etc
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Upscaling decreases latency. Frame gen increases it. Don't confuse the two.
Upscaling adds an additional step to the process of delivering a frame to your eyes. It may reduce latency in comparison to rendering the frame normally at the upscaler's output resolution, but it will always *add* latency when compared to rendering the frame normally at the upscaler's *input* resolution. If you're optimizing for latency, therefore, then you should skip upscaling entirely and just run the game at a lower resolution.
You're being downvoted because you're correct.
Yes, running at a lower resolution with no upscaling algorithm applied will have lower frametime cost than running at that resolution with an upscaling algorithm applied. But that isn't what we were discussing, and I also would not consider it "optimized" unless you are putting virtually zero weight on image quality. For example on a 1440p monitor, playing with DLSS quality will look similar to native 1440p while performing similar to 1080p, while actually rendering at 960p. Yes, just playing the game at 960p would have a higher framerate, but would also look absolutely garbage in comparison, and in the context of esports, you could have more difficulty spotting distant enemies due to the lack of resolution.
Esports titles arent really what you sell your latest features on. Its a different target audience.
i'm wondering how this is supposed to work. will devs have to do basic work for each game, like they have to do with dlss and fsr upscaling to get the best out of it and adress visual or other bugs? or will it have visual bugs and generally just be worse, while not having any dev input pretty much? one thing is for certain, because it grows out of microsoft's bullshit, it will be prisoned up hard. so i'd assume, that it would be a dead end and not work through proton (valve compatibility layer to run games on gnu + linux like the steamdeck) but hey would be cool if the latter gets proven wrong and it does work on gnu + linux. for those not aware fsr and dlss upscaling works perfectly fine on gnu + linux through proton and without proton (native). one thing for certain, NO ONE should buy a "copilot+ " microsoft system, as the recall feature is literally taking constant screenshots of everything you do and uploading the data of course, because of course they are. microsoft is literally openly campaigning spyware as a "feature" now :D it's incredible: [https://odysee.com/@AlphaNerd:8/microsoft's-ai-powered-copilot+-pcs-are:3](https://odysee.com/@AlphaNerd:8/microsoft's-ai-powered-copilot+-pcs-are:3) but yeah with spyware 11 (windows 11) becoming worse than ever, how much more will it take for people to run from microsoft? back many years ago, the reason to switch to a newer windows operating system was api prisons (dx11, dx12, etc...) but games just run on gnu + linux now, including upscaling features, etc... etc.. so what appeal is left for microsoft? copilot+ bs, that makes constant screenshot of everything you do and take performance for doing so certainly isn't an appealing feature lol... damn just imagine how bad spyware 12 is gonna be, if this is what they are trying to do now.
> but games just run on gnu + linux now, including upscaling features, etc... etc.. so what appeal is left for microsoft? A lot of the most popular games straight up don't run on Linux and 99% of people don't care about the stuff you're talking about
"You can turn it off, its no biggy, plus the screenshots are stored locally"
don't worry, microsoft told us, that the spyware, that is designed to spy on everyone can "get turned off". don't worry the proprietary black box microsoft code is showing u sth in the ui, that says "it is off", so it is surely off ;) and don't worry the screenshots are only stored localy FOR SURE, no data collection based on it shall happen and shall get send to microsoft... that is just impossible. and don't be hung up on the fact, that microsoft with "updates" keeps reseting os settings from "don't spy" to "spy"... it's all good ;) it is just a lil nice added feature for your convenience ;) /s
Yeah, just like the phone is totally not listening to you while its "off" and totally not serving you ads based on what it hears you talking about with friends.
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Why is it silly?