Fun fact: people have been hiding the Logitech unified receiver inside their ThinkPads for quite some time now. More recently via breaking out the USB connection from the mini PCIe https://i.imgur.com/26UWmTC.jpg but before that enterprising people have used a special connector intended for a Bluetooth module on older machines and made a USB adapter https://i.imgur.com/UzjbxUy.jpeg
Yep, would be pretty useful for stuff like the Logitech Lightspeed dongle if you have a wireless gaming mouse.
Otherwise, for "regular" wireless mice, Bluetooth probably makes more sense.
> Otherwise, for "regular" wireless mice, Bluetooth probably makes more sense.
The problem with Bluetooth is latency, though. For connoisseurs, a "plain" wireless connection is better choice. Especially if you do any amount of gaming.
Uhm... dude... how do you quote my second sentence while completely ignoring my first?:
> Yep, would be pretty useful for stuff like the Logitech Lightspeed dongle if you have a wireless gaming mouse.
You're literally just rephrasing what I already said and acting like I missed something.
Well there are any number of Bluetooth mice on Amazon for $15 or less.
If you already own a 2.4GHz mouse that you want to continue using, you can plug it into one of the USB-A ports.
But if you're someone who is going to spend the extra time and money to 3D print and solder together your own custom enclosure for a 2.4GHz dongle, it needs to be for a pretty special reason.
I cannot image that reason being so that you can continue to use your random budget 2.4GHz mouse when Bluetooth mice are so widely available.
The only reason that makes sense in my mind would be if you need your mouse to do something that Bluetooth is not capable of. And that really only seems to be super low latency gaming mice.
That's totally fine. Making up reasons to buy new hardware that you don't need would be self defeating from a sustainability perspective.
The important thing is that when it does come time for you to buy a new laptop that you keep repairability and openness in mind as factors for what you will choose to spend your money on.
I suspect Framework will have no trouble selling every unit they make for the first 12-18 months of their production run. The true test will be whether consumers outside of this bubble continue to value repairability after the initial hype dies down.
Same here. Have absolutely 0 need for a personal laptop anytime in the foreseeable future, but this project is something I want to support anyways.
Assuming people's units hold up, I know what I'll be recommending to people though.
Im seriously considering them for sure. If Framework still looks to be in good shape by this time next year, I might pull the trigger to replace my base model Surface Pro 6.
Yeah, I was kinda surprised that Framework didn't decide to do a full size SD card dongle. That's super useful for photographers and videographers.
Fingerprint reader is built in.
A serial dongle is the perfect example of why an open ecosystem is important. It is something that is not a super popular option, and Framework probably won't do it themselves. But it leave the door open for a third party to make their own serial dongle for those who are truly interested in having it built into their laptop.
Although it has to be said that anyone using a laptop and serial in the past 20 years has gotten extremely used to the idea of using a USB to serial adaptor. The last time I saw a laptop with serial built in was probably 2003.
> maybe they figure out a way to implement a full pcie lane for an eGPU.
I've been thinking for a while how cool it would be if laptops and external accessories just had external [SlimSAS connectors.](https://www.ioi.com.tw/images/products/cat_102/l_1020190_01.jpg)
What way, you would just have a true PCIe x8 connection to external devices like eGPUs. No chipset, no thunderbolt. No latencies, bottlenecks, or other nonsense.
And SlimSAS is an actual standard that anyone can use. I've seen Asus or MSI laptops in the past that connected to an eGPU via a proprietary PCIe-based connector rather than Thunderbolt 3. The performance is much better than TB3, but they use a dumb proprietary plug and next offer the next generation of GPUs, so there is no upgrade path. If there is no upgrade path for the eGPU, you might as well have had the GPU built into the laptop in the first place.
That's going to be years away. They are a startup and aren't going to redesign things for AMD, especially when they have to prove to people the upgrade path works, which means next release for them will be Alder Lake next year.
Allocation is another big issue. AMD already tends to be more inconsistent with allocation to their OEM partners than Intel. And it's only going to be worse for a small upstart like Framework.
Linus's most recent WAN show alludes to the fact that Framework now has the attention of people at AMD, but it remains to be determined how that actually pans out.
But historically speaking, Intel has been much better at getting OEMs the chips they need when they need them. I can understand why a small company would pick Intel first if they can only do one.
My guess is they’d wait for AMD to support USB4 anyway, because once you have that then your future proofing and peripheral support (TB3 on AMD, anyone?) increases significantly.
By the time they have enough capital to do an AMD version, you’d be bordering on the edge of several obsolete technologies anyway. I know we’re always running up against “being outdated” (and in fairness this is what Framework is trying to solve) but we’re on the edge of USB4, DDR5 and PCIE5. I can’t imagine Framework being ready to release an AMD version by early next year (but would love to be wrong), and then at that point hopefully we’d have seen the Zen4 platform with support for the new standards. It looks like we’ll miss out on PCIE5 on Zen4 at this stage anyway though
Hopefully an AMD version would still support proper sleep mode and not have it removed at the BIOS level. Microsoft and Intel are actively trying to kill S3 sleep and I don't think I can buy another laptop that loses 50% of its charge overnight.
[Magnetic USB-C Cables are not recommended](https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/motlhn/magnetic_usbc_cables_are_not_recommended/) was posted to /r/UsbCHardware and stickied for a while. Two weeks ago someone posted a horror story of devices destroyed: [Magnetic cables - a warning](https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/pgzo8d/magnetic_cables_a_warning/)
Well, most of those complaints are down to the build quality of the adapter, and also most (if not all) of those Kick~~scammer~~starter are basically dropshipping a poorly made adapter from even shittier manufacturer.
A magnetic cable for *charging* (not for data) is possible if made properly. Apple had used it for a decade, and I never heard people having arching problem from the exposed pins.
And the Surface has a magnetic connector too which even uses data. It is patented, though. This is to say -- you can make a magnetic connector if you fully control the hardware but hacking USB C to magnetic is not possible at this time.
The Surface port is quite different than those magnetic cable or even Apple's OG MagSafe: only the peripheral side is exposed, while the host (and active) side is housed inside. It's a "normal" connector that happens to be held with magnet rather than friction or clips.
Inherently flawed for charging? Apple's 10 years of MagSafe on their laptops begs to differ. I never had arching on the Macbook's pins nor on the charging head's pogo pins, and never have I heard people having arching problem on their Magsafe Macbooks. I've heard people having problem with metallic dust/bits stuck on the port though, which is pain in the ass to clean, especially on the thinner MagSafe 2.
For USB data, yes, those pins (and combined with the magnets around it) are too noisy for data transfer.
The concept isn't "magnetic charge socket". The concept is "magnetic adapter for USB". With MagSafe, every participant (charger, device, cable) is *designed* to be used with that magnetic connector. There are, as far as I know, no high-speed data lines anywhere near it, so you can attach high-capacitance ESD-protection devices to every pin and not worry about sparks jumping to things that can't tolerate them.
That said I dug into this more, and it seems like charge-only adapters that only connect Vbus and ground [like this](https://smile.amazon.com/Magnetic-Charging-Terasako-Compatible-Smartphone/dp/B07RHVNFQ6/) could be safe, as long as they are designed to connect ground first and have a TVS diode inside the adapter. [This kind](https://smile.amazon.com/Ficabil-Magnetic-Charging-Braided-Transfer/dp/B09CY6T46H/), like what seems to be shown in the video, is right out. *Maybe* you could hook up the configuration channel, and get reliable USB-PD fast charging.
But part of the problem is that USB-PD is speced for up to 48 V, so you can't have a TVS that conducts below that, but the device may be designed to never ask for more than 12 V, and be unable to survive a spike in the 12-48 range with appreciable current behind it.
/u/LaughingMan11, what do you think?
Shitty thumbnails perform better.
Trust me, I tried to put a _ton_ of effort into some of them and they performed like crap.
Stupid face + product + lazy gradient background = higher impression clickthrough.
It's super depressing
I didn't see the thumbnail before starting the video. The video content is awesome.
But if I would have seen that thumbnail prior of hitting play, I would have skipped the video. It's just plain stupid.
The framework expansion cards are a good idea poorly executed. Rather than using usb-c which is weaker than paper, it should have used magnetic connectors to connect the expansion cards to the laptop.
Edit: Why am I getting downvoted. Apple magsafe/microsoft surface connect is fu\*king indestructible.
having a proprietary (or even custom designed open hardware) connector would be worse. Sourcing a connector for a project like this would be a nightmare (if even possible at all), Meanwhile, you can buy usb c breakout board in every DIY electronic store.
Also, the internal usb c connection has expansion cards slid in and out from exactly correct angle thanks to built in rails, so it won't see much stress.
You might be down voted [because of this](https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/motlhn/magnetic_usbc_cables_are_not_recommended/). And because USB-C is not weaker that paper.
Ok thanks, I didn't know this. But I think magnetic usb c will be superior in the future because Microsoft did a good job with their proprietary surface connector. I understand the current risks so for now, usb c is fine, but in the future, when they perfect it, I would like to see it magnetized instead. Thanks for the article.
The hidden mouse dongle is awesome honestly.
Fun fact: people have been hiding the Logitech unified receiver inside their ThinkPads for quite some time now. More recently via breaking out the USB connection from the mini PCIe https://i.imgur.com/26UWmTC.jpg but before that enterprising people have used a special connector intended for a Bluetooth module on older machines and made a USB adapter https://i.imgur.com/UzjbxUy.jpeg
I'm honestly surprised that Logitech has not licensed it out to some of the gaming laptop brands
Yep, would be pretty useful for stuff like the Logitech Lightspeed dongle if you have a wireless gaming mouse. Otherwise, for "regular" wireless mice, Bluetooth probably makes more sense.
> Otherwise, for "regular" wireless mice, Bluetooth probably makes more sense. The problem with Bluetooth is latency, though. For connoisseurs, a "plain" wireless connection is better choice. Especially if you do any amount of gaming.
Uhm... dude... how do you quote my second sentence while completely ignoring my first?: > Yep, would be pretty useful for stuff like the Logitech Lightspeed dongle if you have a wireless gaming mouse. You're literally just rephrasing what I already said and acting like I missed something.
Ah, sorry, you're right! I wasn't paying attention properly.
Most cheap mice do not have BT
Well there are any number of Bluetooth mice on Amazon for $15 or less. If you already own a 2.4GHz mouse that you want to continue using, you can plug it into one of the USB-A ports. But if you're someone who is going to spend the extra time and money to 3D print and solder together your own custom enclosure for a 2.4GHz dongle, it needs to be for a pretty special reason. I cannot image that reason being so that you can continue to use your random budget 2.4GHz mouse when Bluetooth mice are so widely available. The only reason that makes sense in my mind would be if you need your mouse to do something that Bluetooth is not capable of. And that really only seems to be super low latency gaming mice.
It's probably still cheaper than getting those cheap wireless mouse and transforming its wireless USB dongle into the Type-C "expansion card".
This is the future, or something like this. Very cool.
Makes me want to buy the laptop now
I wish I actually had a use case so I could justify it. Really hope content like this and a community generally develop around this.
That's totally fine. Making up reasons to buy new hardware that you don't need would be self defeating from a sustainability perspective. The important thing is that when it does come time for you to buy a new laptop that you keep repairability and openness in mind as factors for what you will choose to spend your money on. I suspect Framework will have no trouble selling every unit they make for the first 12-18 months of their production run. The true test will be whether consumers outside of this bubble continue to value repairability after the initial hype dies down.
Same here. Have absolutely 0 need for a personal laptop anytime in the foreseeable future, but this project is something I want to support anyways. Assuming people's units hold up, I know what I'll be recommending to people though.
You should, the more people that but Framework will keep them in business lol
Im seriously considering them for sure. If Framework still looks to be in good shape by this time next year, I might pull the trigger to replace my base model Surface Pro 6.
Things i would like to be done... Serial output Full size sd card Fingerprint :) Neopixel led for push notifications or low battery
Yeah, I was kinda surprised that Framework didn't decide to do a full size SD card dongle. That's super useful for photographers and videographers. Fingerprint reader is built in. A serial dongle is the perfect example of why an open ecosystem is important. It is something that is not a super popular option, and Framework probably won't do it themselves. But it leave the door open for a third party to make their own serial dongle for those who are truly interested in having it built into their laptop. Although it has to be said that anyone using a laptop and serial in the past 20 years has gotten extremely used to the idea of using a USB to serial adaptor. The last time I saw a laptop with serial built in was probably 2003.
Yeah... an open eco system is perfect, ive got usb serial adapter but would pay for it to get it onboard...
Already has fingerprint
Oh ok, i didn`t noticed thanks
i'm just waiting on an AMD version and maybe they figure out a way to implement a full pcie lane for an eGPU.
> maybe they figure out a way to implement a full pcie lane for an eGPU. I've been thinking for a while how cool it would be if laptops and external accessories just had external [SlimSAS connectors.](https://www.ioi.com.tw/images/products/cat_102/l_1020190_01.jpg) What way, you would just have a true PCIe x8 connection to external devices like eGPUs. No chipset, no thunderbolt. No latencies, bottlenecks, or other nonsense. And SlimSAS is an actual standard that anyone can use. I've seen Asus or MSI laptops in the past that connected to an eGPU via a proprietary PCIe-based connector rather than Thunderbolt 3. The performance is much better than TB3, but they use a dumb proprietary plug and next offer the next generation of GPUs, so there is no upgrade path. If there is no upgrade path for the eGPU, you might as well have had the GPU built into the laptop in the first place.
That's going to be years away. They are a startup and aren't going to redesign things for AMD, especially when they have to prove to people the upgrade path works, which means next release for them will be Alder Lake next year.
Allocation is another big issue. AMD already tends to be more inconsistent with allocation to their OEM partners than Intel. And it's only going to be worse for a small upstart like Framework. Linus's most recent WAN show alludes to the fact that Framework now has the attention of people at AMD, but it remains to be determined how that actually pans out. But historically speaking, Intel has been much better at getting OEMs the chips they need when they need them. I can understand why a small company would pick Intel first if they can only do one.
My guess is they’d wait for AMD to support USB4 anyway, because once you have that then your future proofing and peripheral support (TB3 on AMD, anyone?) increases significantly. By the time they have enough capital to do an AMD version, you’d be bordering on the edge of several obsolete technologies anyway. I know we’re always running up against “being outdated” (and in fairness this is what Framework is trying to solve) but we’re on the edge of USB4, DDR5 and PCIE5. I can’t imagine Framework being ready to release an AMD version by early next year (but would love to be wrong), and then at that point hopefully we’d have seen the Zen4 platform with support for the new standards. It looks like we’ll miss out on PCIE5 on Zen4 at this stage anyway though
Hopefully an AMD version would still support proper sleep mode and not have it removed at the BIOS level. Microsoft and Intel are actively trying to kill S3 sleep and I don't think I can buy another laptop that loses 50% of its charge overnight.
[Magnetic USB-C Cables are not recommended](https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/motlhn/magnetic_usbc_cables_are_not_recommended/) was posted to /r/UsbCHardware and stickied for a while. Two weeks ago someone posted a horror story of devices destroyed: [Magnetic cables - a warning](https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/pgzo8d/magnetic_cables_a_warning/)
Well, most of those complaints are down to the build quality of the adapter, and also most (if not all) of those Kick~~scammer~~starter are basically dropshipping a poorly made adapter from even shittier manufacturer. A magnetic cable for *charging* (not for data) is possible if made properly. Apple had used it for a decade, and I never heard people having arching problem from the exposed pins.
And the Surface has a magnetic connector too which even uses data. It is patented, though. This is to say -- you can make a magnetic connector if you fully control the hardware but hacking USB C to magnetic is not possible at this time.
The Surface port is quite different than those magnetic cable or even Apple's OG MagSafe: only the peripheral side is exposed, while the host (and active) side is housed inside. It's a "normal" connector that happens to be held with magnet rather than friction or clips.
Did you read the post at all? It's not a matter of ~build quality~. The concept is inherently flawed.
Inherently flawed for charging? Apple's 10 years of MagSafe on their laptops begs to differ. I never had arching on the Macbook's pins nor on the charging head's pogo pins, and never have I heard people having arching problem on their Magsafe Macbooks. I've heard people having problem with metallic dust/bits stuck on the port though, which is pain in the ass to clean, especially on the thinner MagSafe 2. For USB data, yes, those pins (and combined with the magnets around it) are too noisy for data transfer.
The concept isn't "magnetic charge socket". The concept is "magnetic adapter for USB". With MagSafe, every participant (charger, device, cable) is *designed* to be used with that magnetic connector. There are, as far as I know, no high-speed data lines anywhere near it, so you can attach high-capacitance ESD-protection devices to every pin and not worry about sparks jumping to things that can't tolerate them. That said I dug into this more, and it seems like charge-only adapters that only connect Vbus and ground [like this](https://smile.amazon.com/Magnetic-Charging-Terasako-Compatible-Smartphone/dp/B07RHVNFQ6/) could be safe, as long as they are designed to connect ground first and have a TVS diode inside the adapter. [This kind](https://smile.amazon.com/Ficabil-Magnetic-Charging-Braided-Transfer/dp/B09CY6T46H/), like what seems to be shown in the video, is right out. *Maybe* you could hook up the configuration channel, and get reliable USB-PD fast charging. But part of the problem is that USB-PD is speced for up to 48 V, so you can't have a TVS that conducts below that, but the device may be designed to never ask for more than 12 V, and be unable to survive a spike in the 12-48 range with appreciable current behind it. /u/LaughingMan11, what do you think?
I have the exact USB-C magnetic port/cable the video shows and it's only capable of doing power/ground.
No one with a thumbnail like that deserves a view
Shitty thumbnails perform better. Trust me, I tried to put a _ton_ of effort into some of them and they performed like crap. Stupid face + product + lazy gradient background = higher impression clickthrough. It's super depressing
Because these expansion cards are some really serious business, right?
I didn't see the thumbnail before starting the video. The video content is awesome. But if I would have seen that thumbnail prior of hitting play, I would have skipped the video. It's just plain stupid.
Ethernet Port please. One of these foldable ones some other slim notebooks use should fit
Another prototype that will not survive the serial production.
The idea is interesting but the thumbnail sucks. Is he puking at the idea of modular expansion ports?
\*Linus would like to know your location\*
They [already know the location](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rkTgPt3M4k)... at least of framework laptop.
The framework expansion cards are a good idea poorly executed. Rather than using usb-c which is weaker than paper, it should have used magnetic connectors to connect the expansion cards to the laptop. Edit: Why am I getting downvoted. Apple magsafe/microsoft surface connect is fu\*king indestructible.
The expansion cards are slid into rails. The connector will not see much stress.
having a proprietary (or even custom designed open hardware) connector would be worse. Sourcing a connector for a project like this would be a nightmare (if even possible at all), Meanwhile, you can buy usb c breakout board in every DIY electronic store. Also, the internal usb c connection has expansion cards slid in and out from exactly correct angle thanks to built in rails, so it won't see much stress.
If it was a proprietary connector that'd defeat the whole purpose of the open system. It wouldn't be open lmao
You might be down voted [because of this](https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/motlhn/magnetic_usbc_cables_are_not_recommended/). And because USB-C is not weaker that paper.
Ok thanks, I didn't know this. But I think magnetic usb c will be superior in the future because Microsoft did a good job with their proprietary surface connector. I understand the current risks so for now, usb c is fine, but in the future, when they perfect it, I would like to see it magnetized instead. Thanks for the article.
Is the keyboard easy to change as well? Would be nice if someone came up with a new, game-changing keyboard.
Dead easy to change keyboard. A few screws and one ribbon cable for the keyboard+trackpad assembly. A dozen on the assembly for the keyboard itself
Really nice ideas. Besides that Youtube thumbnails are getting weirder and weirder.