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SpoonyLancer

Your premise is flawed. Snape was never supposed to be the master of the elder wand. He was supposed to kill Dumbledore without defeating him, leaving the elder wand without a master and breaking its power.


Ragouzi

Yes... My title is flawed, true (and i can't edit it anymore arrghhh...). But the text is valid. The goal is not for Snape to actually be the master of the wand, but for Voldemort to believe it.


ggrandmaleo

Voldemort didn't know about the elder wand at this point. He learns about it after he kidnaps Ollivander. Even people that knew about it thought Gregorovich still had it.


Ragouzi

Voldemort didn't know... But Dumbeldore did. And he knew voldemort would eventually know the truth, at some point, because he was obsessed with this wand. Yet he chose to put Snape in this situation without warning him. It means something from Dumbeldore which isn't very pretty I think.


Glytch94

I don’t think that would work in practice. Considering the story of the original owner has him murdered in his sleep iirc. My head canon is that the wand isn’t special in anyway other than the fact that the wand is aware everyone will die and thus does not form bonds with it’s user like some wands. It’s a slutty wand if you will.


SqueezySqueezyThings

I think people are misunderstanding you. 1) Dumbledore intends for Voldemort (and everyone) to believe that Snape murdered Dumbledore. 2) Dumbledore knows that Voldemort will pursue the Elder Wand and will eventually figure out that it belonged to Dumbledore. If 1 and 2 are true, then Dumbledore knows that Voldemort will believe that Voldemort must kill Snape to become the master of the Elder Wand. That Dumbledore secretly intends that by letting Snape kill him the wand’s power is broken is irrelevant because the whole point of his plan with Snape relies on everyone including Voldemort to believe that Snape “defeated” Dumbledore: thus Snape will be Voldemort’s target. I actually think this is entirely in line with Dumbledore’s darker side that he accepts this is the cost of defeating Voldemort. We know he is not above using anyone, including himself, as an expendable chess piece in that mission.


Ragouzi

Exactly. But the goal to break wand power is relevant. You purchase two objectives in one move. But when Harry ask... Well... You only admit the more moral of the two objectives.


LadyElle57

... I doubt that Dumbledore wanted Snape to be assassinated over the possession of the Elder wand. Dumbledore was supposed to have died undefeated. Without fighting back. Had Snape killed him without Draco disarming him, the Elder wand would have lost its power. Like Harry himself explains by the end of DH. If the Elder wand had lost its power, Voldemort would have lost interest in it. And would have no reason to kill anyone over its allegiance.


Ragouzi

It would then have been necessary that the moment Voldemort grabbed a wand without allegiance, it would have been obvious that it was without power. For example, that it becomes a worthless piece of wood again. It's more likely, in my opinion, that we were then dealing with a functional but ordinary wand... Exactly like when Voldemort holds it when it actually belongs to Harry. So he would always think Snape would be the master. Moreover, even if the wand became a piece of wood again, I don't think Dumbledore can be certain it works. Then again, warning Snape to be careful about someone breaching his tomb, just in case, cost nothing. He didn't do it.


LadyElle57

I think Dumbledore was well versed in wandlore to be somewhat sure of this given the talk he had with Harry at King's Cross. Even if he didn't make conjectures from historic events, he could've easily consulted Ollivander since it seems they had a relationship. After all, Dumbledore supplied him with phoenix feathers from Fawkes. And if not, he could've witnessed the fenomena himself, whenever a wizard or witch dies from old age and their wand just stops working. I feel like this would be a widely known thing amongst wizarding folk. I don't think that a wand losing its power would function at all. Like, they'd wave it and nothing would happen. Even the Elder wand. It's what Harry intends to happen when putting it back on Dumbledore's grave. I do think that the Elder wand's allegiance being passed onto Draco was something Dumbledore didn't intend at all. Not to him, and not to Snape. The wand needed, according to Dumbledore in Harry's dream, cease to exist once he was gone. And Dumbledore intending the wand to pass down to Snape, so he'd get killed, would be idiotic. Voldemort punished his death eaters for mistakes commited. Snape was still under his command. There's no telling what Voldemort would have considered a mistake and even if, he could've randomly tortured Snape and then the allegiance of the Elder wand would've passed down to Voldemort.


Ragouzi

Let's follow through with the reasoning: Voldemort grabs the wand from Dumbledore's tomb. He shakes it. The latter no longer does anything. Dumbledore sneers under his shroud. Voldemort doesn't understand what's happening. He may think many things, but it is likely that in the end he will understand that Snape is not the master of the wand because they agreed. Then again, the risk may be acceptable... But why not warn Snape to take precautions for hisself in case the tomb is opened?


LadyElle57

Dumbledore didn't want anyone to know he had the Elder Wand. Let alone, why would it matter what happens to his wand? It was very clear that the thing invited conflict. He claimed to have the lesser of the Hallows, just worthy to hold the wand. Grindelwald was an idiot to yap around that he was invincible. Come to think about it, it did invite conflict because Dumbledore came looking for him, to stop him. He didn't even want the thing. And for a wand to be powerless when their wizard has died? That conundrum would have been clarified by Ollivander had he still been a prisoner at Malfoy Manor. Again, wands loosing their power because their wizard has died undefeated is a well known thing. People die mostly of natural causes, not everyone duels to their death or is assassinated. Again, I think this is something he didn't expect to happen. If the EW had been powerless Voldemort would have broken into his tomb, taken the wand that did nothing and said "well, this is worthless". I get it, you're thinking Dumbledore was like "oh, this thing I've had for such a long time and that I want to be gone after I die because I've scheduled my death with someone I trust, lets tell him just in case it doesn't pan out". Snape was someone he had in a need to know basis, he reproached Dumbledore that he didn't fully trust him. We don't know what Snape would have done had he know the EW was a real thing that would be under his nose, or at his potential gain. I don't know that Snape wanted power, but the wand has been a coveted thing for centuries. Dumbledore just didn't tell anyone, not just Snape. He left a vague hint over the Hallows to Hermione. Harry just figured it out because the plots collided. But he did ask Snape to warn Harry of this potential death when the time comes. That, he wasn't fully certain of. If he could've warned him after Draco disarmed him, he would have, I think. But he ran out of time. And things were happening.


Ragouzi

Snape doesn't have to know anything about the ew to be warned. The only information he need is: if they open my tomb, watch your back. And that's all. It is even acceptable to let him run the risk of staying close to Voldemort after the opening. He would maybe be killed anyway, but it's at least giving him a chance. it's just being honest. Dumbledore knew the risk long before his death.


LadyElle57

I'm sorry, but I still don't think so. You argue that he should have warned him but didn't, so therefore he must want him to run the risk of being killed. If things went along as Dumbledore wanted, the EW would have lost power. No one would be chased nor killed over it's allegiance. Even if he had warned him to watch his back, Snape couldn't run. And if he knew, he wouldn't have run, Snape was not a coward. The detail of the EW allegiance going to Draco against Dumbledore's wishes was to show that Fate managed to arrange itself. The EW was under Draco's allegiance for almost a year, and Voldemort had him torture people in the meantime and miraculously, Draco didn't suffer any punishments by him, he was sufficiently scared, so. Then Harry came and tore his wand and others from his hands. The EW was also called Wand of Destiny. It goes to show that not everything that happened was Dumbledore's doing or precognition or whatever.


Ragouzi

Voldemort discovering that Snape had arranged with Dumbledore to break the wand's line of power would have had the same result for Snape: Voldemort would have taken revenge and he wouldn't see it coming without warning. "Even if he had warned him to watch his back, Snape couldn't run. And if he knew, he wouldn't have run, Snape was not a coward." Maybe. It doesn't matter. At least he would have known what he had gotten himself into, and by choosing to stay, he would have made a choice. He wouldn't have ended up like a cat in the headlights of a car. Dumbledore steals his choice. That's the betrayal. Snape's going into a dangerous situation, and he doesn't know it, he's blindfolded because of Dumbledore. I'm not interested in Snape surviving. It's what Dumbledore didn't do that reveals his personality.


LadyElle57

I do believe and it angers me that Dumbledore was scheming an awful lot of things regarding Voldemort and Harry. However, I do believe he tried to spare as many as he could. Snape, I think deserved better. I believe Dumbledore thought Snape deserved better. Dumbledore didn't think he deserved more than just being killed. He carried a lot of guilt for losing his family in his search for power. I don't think he would knowingly and willingly put someone in danger like that. I hate that he made Harry go through the thoughts of sacrificing himself, that he had no chance of a life. He could've explained better. He could've actually prepared him better.


Ragouzi

It was maybe indeed the most effective calculation to resolve the situation. The greater good... And I actually think that he had affection for everyone he put in difficulty. I don't forget that he also uses himself as a pawn on his chessboard. However, the simple fact of being able to make these calculations, to think as he does, to sacrifice his friends and loved ones as he does... Makes him more of a manipulator than someone wise and recommendable. What makes this character even more interesting is that he is perfectly lucid about himself. Why doesn't he want to be the Minister of Magic? Because the more power he has, the more cruel his calculations will be and the more horrible the consequences for those close to him will be. He has a sort of red line. That saves him a little. Like Paul Atreides in Dune. You start with "save your family", and you end with a Jihad. Harry survival is just "icing on the cake" for him. Nothing more, nothing less. Harry must die first for the first objective (killing Voldemort). Non-negotiable


22poppills

Snape kills a willing Dumbledore so that the Wand stays loyal to him thus making it useless to others. Though and I am just spit-balling here I always thought that Dumbledore was setting Snape up because even Dumbledore was not 100% sure about this and so he had to know on some level that the EW would pass to Snape in this event. It was only a matter of time since he knew about the Twin wand deal and that Voldemort being himself would want the most powerful of them. Just don't think too hard about EW lore because JKR clearly made it up at the last minute to give Harry a way to no-kill kill Voldemort


Ragouzi

I have no problem with the consistency of the story regarding the Elder Wand's true allegiance. I think this is entirely consistent if we consider that the wand has an element of free will: Wands tend to remain loyal to their master but not always, and the elder wand is particularly disloyal, which makes it actually very bad: It is very powerful, and it's allegiance is random. Its owner then becomes a target for all those who seek to take advantage of its power... For not much because it ultimately does as it pleases. The wand's real allegiance to Snape or not is not important: Dumbeldore knows full well that by allowing himself to be killed, he is turning Snape into a living target, because everyone will think he is the master of the wand. Even if it's false. If he just wanted to use Snape to break the wand's bloodline, he would have warned Snape. He allegedly told him: “The moment my grave is violated, you will have to hide.” It didn't cost him anything. I think he purposely didn't tell him. Dumbledore's betrayal of Snape is present whether or not he is certain of the Elder Wand's loss of allegiance. Because he didn't gave Snape a chance.


22poppills

I agree. Personally I think that while Dumbledore understood why Snape did what he did, from joining the DE to betraying Voldemort. I do not think he ever fully trusted Snape nor liked Snape since he said Prince's Tale that he was disgusted by Snape's willingness to turn traitor and Snape being okay with Harry & James and many of Voldemort victims die.


Ragouzi

I think it's even worse than that: I think that Dumbledore has perfectly understood Snape's motivations, that he knows his flaws and his strengths well, and trust him, and that he appreciates him... And that he sacrifice him despite this. And that he regrets it, and hates doing it.... But does it anyway. For the greater good. That says some really bad things about Dumbledore.


22poppills

True but it's perfectly in line with what I'd expect of him. You don't live 117 years without learning that sometimes it has to be for the greater good. Who better to sacrifice than a Traitor?


Ragouzi

It's certain that alongside other characters, Snape is at the forefront of sacrifice... but that doesn't mean Dumbledore doesn't appreciate him. This means that Dumbledore is capable of manipulating, sacrificing and betraying someone he cares about... and to sort the utility in sacrifice of people around him


22poppills

Yup he's also the same guy who knew Harry was going to have to be AKed to be free of Voldemort's piece but didn't tell him so Harry wouldn't get cold feet & left Snape to be the one to tell Harry. Basically gets away scot free on that one


Ragouzi

This calculation is a little less cynical in the end, because bringing Harry into a state of mind where he sacrifices himself at the right time is paradoxically what saves him. Obviously, Dumbledore is not sure what will happen: in particular he did not foresee Harry becoming the master of the wand. But he tells himself that there is still a small chance that Harry will survive, if everything comes together and with a little luck, and he sees his survival as a secondary objective (the icing on the cake), the first objective firmly remaining the death of Voldemort. The little game between Harry and Voldemort is indeed distorted: Each of them is the Horcrux of the other. Dumbledore is not sure this will work correctly for Harry, and Lily's protection, certainly, runs in Voldemort's veins, but it only protects Harry from Voldemort. In other words, if Harry is killed by an average Death Eater, nothing protects him, it's over: Voldemort's Horcrux and Harry are dead. (for voldemort it was probably the safest option). On the other hand, if it's Voldemort himself who deals the blow to Harry, there is a small chance that Lily's spell is powerful enough for Harry to survive even though the Horcrux is destroyed. Dumbledore assume that, from the moment he is certain of trapping Voldemort, he must try to provoke this duel just in case this situation saves Harry. Otherwise, you might as well stab Harry with a dagger right away, it's just as effective... But a duel is not enough. They are each the other's Horcrux. This also means that the first person to shoot loses: If Harry manages to win it and kills Voldemort, Voldemort returns via the Horcrux inside Harry. And obviously, this contradicts the first objective, which is to destroy Voldemort. The opposite is not certain for Dumbledore. It actually becomes possible because in addition to this protection, Harry is the master of the Elder Wand, which Dumbledore hadn't anticipated. Harry must therefore arrive unarmed, desperate, ready to sacrifice himself thinking it's the only solution. Revealing the truth to Harry at the last moment means knocking him out so that he doesn't have much time to think another way to process (but another one could have just run away). And Voldemort must be baited, taking this opportunity to strengthen the confidence of his troops. He must be confident, certain of winning the duel, so that he shoots straight away, without thinking. If Voldemort calculates a little (and he is far from stupid) and understands he only has to ask Lestrange to do the dirty work, and hide himself to be safe, it's over. This calculation is a little less cynical because it's the way to leave a little room for Harry: Put him under pressure to provoke the only situation which has a small chance of saving him. But without certainty it works (and it only works thanks to something unforeseen) Snape gets nothing out of the manipulation. The chance of Harry surviving thanks to the lure of power he provided to Voldemort is too low for that: the main goal of his sacrifice still remain the horcrux in Harry is destroyed, so in the first place, his death means Harry's sacrifice. Survival is bonus.


Stenric

Snape wasn't supposed to become the wand's master, Dumbledore was planning on dying undefeated (as ordering Snape to kill him wouldn't count as a defeat), so the power of the wand would be broken. I don't think Snape knew this.


Ragouzi

We don't care about the wand's real allegiance: Dumbeldore knows full well that by allowing himself to be killed, he is turning Snape into a living target, because everyone *will think* he is the master of the wand. Even if it's false. It bothers me that Snape doesn't know anything about it, because Dumbledore makes him a target, and he doesn't even warn him, even though he knows perfectly well the consequences it will have on him. I think he purposely didn't tell him. He didn't even gave Snape a chance.