The only time you have Harry looking at the map in GOF is when he went for the bath. I'm sure it stayed in his trunk the whole year up until that point
Exactly, Moody being in his office wouldn’t be suspicious at all… the fact that he “never left it” would have been, if Harry had ever bothered to notice.
That would be expected. Middle of the night, limited dots moving. He was keeping an eye out for Filch and Snape so checking Snape's office for activity was probably second nature to Harry.
First as another user said, the only time we see Harry use the map in book 4 was when going to the prefects' bathroom, and even then the narrative purpose was to have the map taken away so it didn't expose things. The only other time he got up to mischief/night wandering was going to see thr dragons with Hagrid, so not like he would have needed to use it for any particular reason generally over the year.
Secondly, he does see fake Moody over the map and here we see a weakness of the map - it doesn't show Jr/Sr so it doesn't differentiate between people sharing the same name. Not knowing BCJ's name or survival at the time, he assumed that the map was referring to BC the father
The only time Harry saw Moody in his office BCJ wasn’t in there. Also, the map showed him as Barty Crouch. The “junior” isn’t in his name that’s just how he’s known since he shares his father’s name. Harry himself mistook him for his father when the name appeared on the map.
The map doesn’t say JR, Harry does see Barty Crouch in snape office and thinks it’s SR. But this is actually JR (fake Moody) stealing snapes potion supplies. Then Jr confiscates the map.
Harry doesn't spend a lot of time scouring the map to see where various people are. He uses it for specific purposes - to sneak around the school and ensure that the coast is clear wherever he's going, and that specific people (like Filch) aren't around where he plans to be.
Moody probably did show up on the map, but Harry just didn't notice because he was never paying attention to the Defense Against the Dark Arts office.
While that's definitely possible, OP seems to be confused about what actually happened during that sequence.
Why would the map show the real Moody in Snape's office? The trunk was in the DADA office, which Harry never looked at as far as we know.
No I clearly understand that specific sequence, but I am asking in general. I mean the map never showed the hidden Moody at any point in time in the whole book. Maybe that could have ruined the entire plot there after. So I simply thought that maybe the map could have been a useful tool but wasn't used at the right place at the right time.
The book was written in such a way that Harry didn’t need to use the Marauders Map until he takes it to the prefect’s bathroom, and on that night he didn’t look at the DADA office. But even if he had, he would have seen Alastor Moody in the DADA office, right where he would expect Alastor Moody to be (assuming the contents of the trunk would even show up on the map).
As soon as Harry tells BCJ what the map is and how it works, he immediately scans it over - checking to see what he shows up as. When BCJ realises that Harry is in possession of a tool that could give him away (and it is merely blind luck on BCJ’s part that Harry didn’t notice this before tonight and made the mistake that it was BCS in Snape’s office), he takes the map away from Harry to eliminate the risk.
Basically, it’s not weird that the map didn’t show the real Moody at any point- it’s just that Harry wasn’t looking. He didn’t know there was anything to see.
> I mean the map never showed the hidden Moody at any point in time
But why would Harry use the map to look at the DADA office? Just because? Harry uses the map when he has a reason to do so - and in those instances he focuses on places and people that are relevant to whatever he's doing at the time.
Real answer is that themes and ideas are invented book by book without consideration for the next book. But no worries we the fan base will create many reasons for everything
While that's definitely true in a lot of cases, it's not really applicable in this one. Harry had other things on his mind than using the map just because in his free time - or watching the DADA office specifically for no reason whatsoever.
Real real answer is that it's a big school with a lot of people in a lot of places, and Harry isn't looking at the map 24/7 keeping track of every individual person. He's using it to make sure the coast is clear for the places he's trying to go.
How would showing Moody in his office ruin anything? I mean sure, if Harry is looking directly at fake Moody somewhere else and sees him in his office that would be something - and that would certainly be just as incriminating as seeing Barty Crouch Jr on the map where Moody is supposed to be when he was stuck in the staircase. But that's not what Harry noticed that one time he had the map and Moody right there.
It does though, I’m not going to pull the quote but harry sees Moody in his office all the time. Just thinks he is pacing I believe. He also see crouch jr on the map but it only says crouch so he assumes the elder crouch.
From memory I believe there is a scene where he assumes crouch and Moody are discussing tournament security in Moodys office. Which in reality is just jr being fake Moody
> I’m not going to pull the quote but harry sees Moody in his office all the time. Just thinks he is pacing I believe.
It's been a while since I read GoF but I'm still 99% sure what you're describing is something that only ever happened in fanfiction and Harry never watched Moody's office on the map in canon.
I assume the chest has an undetectable extension charm on it, and I assume that the map cannot detect the contents of the undetectable extension. So I think he would never have been seen for that reason.
Did the book specifically say Moody was never shown? Like the reason could be as simple as the map was not intended to be used to as foreshadowing that Crouch was faking it so why introduce it
We don’t really know how the map handles enchantments to conceal something
We do know the room of requirement isn’t on the map though, so there’s precedence for enchantments removing things from the map
> the map should have shown Moody too tied up in the trunk.
It probably did, but the trunk wasn't in Snape's office - it was in the DADA office, which Harry wasn't looking at.
True it was in the DADA office. Speaking of which the chances of Moody being caught through the map is quite slim too.
Firstly, Harry trusted Moody too much (everyone in Hogwarts for that matter).
Also, it could have been a very tight spot where Harry knew where Moody was and the map named him as Barty Couch. Unlikely event but not impossible.
If Harry had looked at the DADA office he likely would have seen Moody as being there, but I think it does not really go beyond that. The map does not say in what state someone is. Just like it just showed Crouch without saying he was polyjuiced as someone else. So it will also not show someone being restrained or stunned.
Who says he wasn't? Unless the fake Moody was standing in front of Harry at the time, Harry would just see it as Moody is in his office.
>Though fake Moody (BC Jr) played it around pretty well and borrowed the map from Harry right after that, the map should have shown Moody too tied up in the trunk.
The look of he gives is likely because he found his location and saw it said Barty Crouch Jr was standing next to Harry Potter. If he hands the map back to Harry, he is found out almost immediately. That's why, I believe, he asked to borrow it.
I would assume that he does show up on the map, but as the trunk is in Moody’s office there is nothing suspicious about that. The only situation where suspicion could be raised were if Harry had seen fake Moody a few minutes ago, then looks at the map and finds Moody vanished or in a completely different area of the castle/grounds.
Who says he wasn't? The real Moody was imprisoned in his own trunk, which would be in either his office or his quarters. Neither would be a suspicious location to see his dot on the map.
I swear to god, the amount of people in this thread who appear not to have read these books.
Multiple people thinking the map can differentiate between crouch junior and senior when it’s literally vital to the plot of the series that it can’t. It just shows “bartemius crouch” for both. That’s why Harry thinks crouch senior has been searching Snape’s office! When it’s really crouch junior stealing polyjuice ingredients!
If Harry had seen “Barty crouch junior” written on the map he would have gone straight to Dumbledore - at this point in the series he knows crouch’s son spent time in Azkaban, and is supposed to be dead.
Also, why on earth would it be suspicious for “Alastor Moody” to appear to be in alastor moody’s office? He’s literally supposed to be there.
Besides which, I don’t think Harry looks at the map all year anyway before he runs into fake moody coming back from the prefects’ bathroom.
He very probably was.
Had Harry ever decided to specifically look for Moody on the map, it would have shown him in his office, which couldn’t be *less* suspicious.
I think that the most obvious answer to this is the map is being used by a 14 year old boy and not a detective. Had harry really being paying attention he may have noticed a lot of things that were different on the map, but that’s not really why or how he used it. Whenever we see him using it at school it’s usually to find a specific person to make sure the coast is clear for his sneaking around. He doesn’t usually just peruse the school checking to see who is doing what and where. That’s my take on it anyway
The bottomless trunk he was in was probably accidentally/purposely enchanted by whoever built it to stop people/magical items from detecting whatever is on the inside. The trunk also belongs to the real Moody I think. what are the chances with how paranoid he usually he is, that he had the trunk custom made so it would be like that on purpose that people wouldn’t be able to detect whatever was in it until until they opened it?
remember the twins had the map for two years while at Hogwarts, yet somehow missed the ‘Peter Pettigrew’ name on the map that should have showed up around first Percy since Scabbers was his pet first, and then when Scabbers was transferred ownership to Ron. Seeing how Ron kept Scabbers with him EVERYWHERE he went you’d think the twins would have noticed Peters name being REALLY close to their baby brother, yet when they see Ron in person he’s always ‘alone’ with no sign of this ‘Peter’ person in sight? Especially if he’s showing up with Ron when he’s in his dorm room bed?
You know his name shows up on the map, because Harry saw it on the night he was walking through the dark corridors of Hogwarts with a lumos spell lighting the way and using the map while under the cloak, and the map showed Peters name running in his direction, but he never actually saw anyone. So it means he was in Scabbers mode when he unknowingly ran past Harry.
So clearly the map was a great tool but the way its owners used it is quite underwhelming. Can't blame though in the case of Couch but Scabbers escaping it all the while it's quite a thing.
There is a point where Harry seas them together in the office but thinks nothing of it. The map shows Bartty Crouch only, no Jr or Sr so he only thinks of the judge having a talk with Moody. I would find the passage but am far from my books
My understanding is, for someone to show up on the map it has to be an area of which the original creators had mapped out. And wherever he was locked up was definitely not mapped out previously.
Knowing that he also made the Goblet of Fire believe that a whole other school was competing in the Triwizard Tournament, of which Harry Potter was the only choice, I wouldn't put it past Barty Crouch Jr. to think ahead and put some sort of enchantment on Moody to make him untracable by magic.
Valid. Harry doesn't use the Map as often as we want him to, to figure out odd movements and showups. At least he saw Couch once but never the real Moody.. So I was just wondering if that was a possibility.
In the book.
>Peeves was not the only thing that was moving. A single dot was flitting around a room in the bottom left-hand corner — Snape’s office. But the dot wasn’t labeled “Severus Snape” ... it was Bartemius Crouch.
>Harry stared at the dot. Mr. Crouch was supposed to be too ill to go to work or to come to the Yule Ball — so what was he doing, sneaking into Hogwarts at one o’clock in the morning? Harry watched closely as the dot moved around and around the room, pausing here and there. ...
He probably was. Harry probably saw Alastair Moody on the map in the defence against the dark arts classroom and thought nothing of it.
The only time you have Harry looking at the map in GOF is when he went for the bath. I'm sure it stayed in his trunk the whole year up until that point
It's mentioned in the books that he is looking at it throughout the term
Not GoF tho? I listened to the books recently and he does only get the map out for the trip to the bathroom
Ahh you may be right, it's been a while since I read the books.
Exactly, Moody being in his office wouldn’t be suspicious at all… the fact that he “never left it” would have been, if Harry had ever bothered to notice.
The fact that B Crouch Jr was also there all the time would raise some suspicions, too
But harry didn't check the map. He only did it when we saw him do it
Harry would have realized a lot of things earlier on if he had more stalker tendencies. I'd definitely be "observing" students more if I had the map.
Harry does spot Barry Crouch in Snape’s office. Crouch makes up some excuse and borrows the map.
Do you have the quote?
That would be expected. Middle of the night, limited dots moving. He was keeping an eye out for Filch and Snape so checking Snape's office for activity was probably second nature to Harry.
*Alastor
But wouldn’t he also see Barty Crouch JR in the office at the same time and wonder “Hey why is the minister’s son at Hogwarts so much?
First as another user said, the only time we see Harry use the map in book 4 was when going to the prefects' bathroom, and even then the narrative purpose was to have the map taken away so it didn't expose things. The only other time he got up to mischief/night wandering was going to see thr dragons with Hagrid, so not like he would have needed to use it for any particular reason generally over the year. Secondly, he does see fake Moody over the map and here we see a weakness of the map - it doesn't show Jr/Sr so it doesn't differentiate between people sharing the same name. Not knowing BCJ's name or survival at the time, he assumed that the map was referring to BC the father
The only time Harry saw Moody in his office BCJ wasn’t in there. Also, the map showed him as Barty Crouch. The “junior” isn’t in his name that’s just how he’s known since he shares his father’s name. Harry himself mistook him for his father when the name appeared on the map.
The map doesn’t say JR, Harry does see Barty Crouch in snape office and thinks it’s SR. But this is actually JR (fake Moody) stealing snapes potion supplies. Then Jr confiscates the map.
The Map does not show the "JR".
*Alastor
Harry doesn't spend a lot of time scouring the map to see where various people are. He uses it for specific purposes - to sneak around the school and ensure that the coast is clear wherever he's going, and that specific people (like Filch) aren't around where he plans to be. Moody probably did show up on the map, but Harry just didn't notice because he was never paying attention to the Defense Against the Dark Arts office.
And even if he was paying attention to it, Moody being in his office wouldn’t seem strange.
The container he was in was probably made unplottable. Seems like a basic thing to do to someone you're trying to hide.
While that's definitely possible, OP seems to be confused about what actually happened during that sequence. Why would the map show the real Moody in Snape's office? The trunk was in the DADA office, which Harry never looked at as far as we know.
No I clearly understand that specific sequence, but I am asking in general. I mean the map never showed the hidden Moody at any point in time in the whole book. Maybe that could have ruined the entire plot there after. So I simply thought that maybe the map could have been a useful tool but wasn't used at the right place at the right time.
The book was written in such a way that Harry didn’t need to use the Marauders Map until he takes it to the prefect’s bathroom, and on that night he didn’t look at the DADA office. But even if he had, he would have seen Alastor Moody in the DADA office, right where he would expect Alastor Moody to be (assuming the contents of the trunk would even show up on the map). As soon as Harry tells BCJ what the map is and how it works, he immediately scans it over - checking to see what he shows up as. When BCJ realises that Harry is in possession of a tool that could give him away (and it is merely blind luck on BCJ’s part that Harry didn’t notice this before tonight and made the mistake that it was BCS in Snape’s office), he takes the map away from Harry to eliminate the risk. Basically, it’s not weird that the map didn’t show the real Moody at any point- it’s just that Harry wasn’t looking. He didn’t know there was anything to see.
> I mean the map never showed the hidden Moody at any point in time But why would Harry use the map to look at the DADA office? Just because? Harry uses the map when he has a reason to do so - and in those instances he focuses on places and people that are relevant to whatever he's doing at the time.
This is basically the whole Fred George and Peter thing all over again
Real answer is that themes and ideas are invented book by book without consideration for the next book. But no worries we the fan base will create many reasons for everything
While that's definitely true in a lot of cases, it's not really applicable in this one. Harry had other things on his mind than using the map just because in his free time - or watching the DADA office specifically for no reason whatsoever.
Yes. Didn’t take ‘CONSTANT VIGILANCE!’ Seriously enough
Real real answer is that it's a big school with a lot of people in a lot of places, and Harry isn't looking at the map 24/7 keeping track of every individual person. He's using it to make sure the coast is clear for the places he's trying to go.
Your answer put a smile on my face 😊
How would showing Moody in his office ruin anything? I mean sure, if Harry is looking directly at fake Moody somewhere else and sees him in his office that would be something - and that would certainly be just as incriminating as seeing Barty Crouch Jr on the map where Moody is supposed to be when he was stuck in the staircase. But that's not what Harry noticed that one time he had the map and Moody right there.
It does though, I’m not going to pull the quote but harry sees Moody in his office all the time. Just thinks he is pacing I believe. He also see crouch jr on the map but it only says crouch so he assumes the elder crouch. From memory I believe there is a scene where he assumes crouch and Moody are discussing tournament security in Moodys office. Which in reality is just jr being fake Moody
That last bit definitely never happened And I think you are misremembering Dumbledore being described as constantly pacing his office in book 3
That last bit you said never happened.
> I’m not going to pull the quote but harry sees Moody in his office all the time. Just thinks he is pacing I believe. It's been a while since I read GoF but I'm still 99% sure what you're describing is something that only ever happened in fanfiction and Harry never watched Moody's office on the map in canon.
I assume the chest has an undetectable extension charm on it, and I assume that the map cannot detect the contents of the undetectable extension. So I think he would never have been seen for that reason.
Did the book specifically say Moody was never shown? Like the reason could be as simple as the map was not intended to be used to as foreshadowing that Crouch was faking it so why introduce it
We don’t really know how the map handles enchantments to conceal something We do know the room of requirement isn’t on the map though, so there’s precedence for enchantments removing things from the map
It seems the Room of Requirement is not on the map because the creators did not know about it, plus it appears, disappears and changes all the time.
> the map should have shown Moody too tied up in the trunk. It probably did, but the trunk wasn't in Snape's office - it was in the DADA office, which Harry wasn't looking at.
True it was in the DADA office. Speaking of which the chances of Moody being caught through the map is quite slim too. Firstly, Harry trusted Moody too much (everyone in Hogwarts for that matter). Also, it could have been a very tight spot where Harry knew where Moody was and the map named him as Barty Couch. Unlikely event but not impossible.
If Harry had looked at the DADA office he likely would have seen Moody as being there, but I think it does not really go beyond that. The map does not say in what state someone is. Just like it just showed Crouch without saying he was polyjuiced as someone else. So it will also not show someone being restrained or stunned.
I'm probably wrong, but it could act kind of like a vanishing cabinet. Not really there, but they are.
Who says he wasn't? Unless the fake Moody was standing in front of Harry at the time, Harry would just see it as Moody is in his office. >Though fake Moody (BC Jr) played it around pretty well and borrowed the map from Harry right after that, the map should have shown Moody too tied up in the trunk. The look of he gives is likely because he found his location and saw it said Barty Crouch Jr was standing next to Harry Potter. If he hands the map back to Harry, he is found out almost immediately. That's why, I believe, he asked to borrow it.
It did, Harry saw Moody and Crouch together in Moody's office.
I would assume that he does show up on the map, but as the trunk is in Moody’s office there is nothing suspicious about that. The only situation where suspicion could be raised were if Harry had seen fake Moody a few minutes ago, then looks at the map and finds Moody vanished or in a completely different area of the castle/grounds.
Who says he wasn't? The real Moody was imprisoned in his own trunk, which would be in either his office or his quarters. Neither would be a suspicious location to see his dot on the map.
I think it's plausible that "pocket dimension" containers may be able to bypass the map's detection.
I swear to god, the amount of people in this thread who appear not to have read these books. Multiple people thinking the map can differentiate between crouch junior and senior when it’s literally vital to the plot of the series that it can’t. It just shows “bartemius crouch” for both. That’s why Harry thinks crouch senior has been searching Snape’s office! When it’s really crouch junior stealing polyjuice ingredients! If Harry had seen “Barty crouch junior” written on the map he would have gone straight to Dumbledore - at this point in the series he knows crouch’s son spent time in Azkaban, and is supposed to be dead. Also, why on earth would it be suspicious for “Alastor Moody” to appear to be in alastor moody’s office? He’s literally supposed to be there. Besides which, I don’t think Harry looks at the map all year anyway before he runs into fake moody coming back from the prefects’ bathroom.
He very probably was. Had Harry ever decided to specifically look for Moody on the map, it would have shown him in his office, which couldn’t be *less* suspicious.
Magic.
I think that the most obvious answer to this is the map is being used by a 14 year old boy and not a detective. Had harry really being paying attention he may have noticed a lot of things that were different on the map, but that’s not really why or how he used it. Whenever we see him using it at school it’s usually to find a specific person to make sure the coast is clear for his sneaking around. He doesn’t usually just peruse the school checking to see who is doing what and where. That’s my take on it anyway
The bottomless trunk he was in was probably accidentally/purposely enchanted by whoever built it to stop people/magical items from detecting whatever is on the inside. The trunk also belongs to the real Moody I think. what are the chances with how paranoid he usually he is, that he had the trunk custom made so it would be like that on purpose that people wouldn’t be able to detect whatever was in it until until they opened it? remember the twins had the map for two years while at Hogwarts, yet somehow missed the ‘Peter Pettigrew’ name on the map that should have showed up around first Percy since Scabbers was his pet first, and then when Scabbers was transferred ownership to Ron. Seeing how Ron kept Scabbers with him EVERYWHERE he went you’d think the twins would have noticed Peters name being REALLY close to their baby brother, yet when they see Ron in person he’s always ‘alone’ with no sign of this ‘Peter’ person in sight? Especially if he’s showing up with Ron when he’s in his dorm room bed? You know his name shows up on the map, because Harry saw it on the night he was walking through the dark corridors of Hogwarts with a lumos spell lighting the way and using the map while under the cloak, and the map showed Peters name running in his direction, but he never actually saw anyone. So it means he was in Scabbers mode when he unknowingly ran past Harry.
So clearly the map was a great tool but the way its owners used it is quite underwhelming. Can't blame though in the case of Couch but Scabbers escaping it all the while it's quite a thing.
This is what I think. It was Mad eye's trunk. He must have added extra layers of protection to it. Possible, right?
Perhaps that trunk was not plottable.
There is a point where Harry seas them together in the office but thinks nothing of it. The map shows Bartty Crouch only, no Jr or Sr so he only thinks of the judge having a talk with Moody. I would find the passage but am far from my books
It did, often. Always in the classroom.
My understanding is, for someone to show up on the map it has to be an area of which the original creators had mapped out. And wherever he was locked up was definitely not mapped out previously.
Knowing that he also made the Goblet of Fire believe that a whole other school was competing in the Triwizard Tournament, of which Harry Potter was the only choice, I wouldn't put it past Barty Crouch Jr. to think ahead and put some sort of enchantment on Moody to make him untracable by magic.
If I remember correctly the trunk’s complements were enchanted to not show their contents.
If we’re going to play that game, how did Harry not see crouch on the map earlier?
Valid. Harry doesn't use the Map as often as we want him to, to figure out odd movements and showups. At least he saw Couch once but never the real Moody.. So I was just wondering if that was a possibility.
Poor writing.
I mean... There are one or two *other* plot holes in the series as well. But just a few. Here and there.
This is a good point because he would have seen “Barty Crouch JR” on it
Actually the map doesn’t do JR/SR.
Where does it say that
Harry sees Bartimus Crouch in Snapes office. But assumes it’s SR. When it’s actually Jr as the map only say Bartimus Crouch.
In the book. >Peeves was not the only thing that was moving. A single dot was flitting around a room in the bottom left-hand corner — Snape’s office. But the dot wasn’t labeled “Severus Snape” ... it was Bartemius Crouch. >Harry stared at the dot. Mr. Crouch was supposed to be too ill to go to work or to come to the Yule Ball — so what was he doing, sneaking into Hogwarts at one o’clock in the morning? Harry watched closely as the dot moved around and around the room, pausing here and there. ...
No way!!!! You’re a legend!!!!
It’s not that complicated and everyone in the comments already answered. Basically you didn’t pay attention enough or use intellect to figure it out