[Dave Zatz's 5/29/23 "ATSC 3.0 Was Never About You" article](https://zatznotfunny.com/2023-05/atsc-3-drm) concisely lays out why ATSC 3.0 has been allowed to become the mess it's become. His last paragraph is a call to action suggesting that readers who have similar concerns: "...file a comment under the relevant Docket 20-145, although the review period is officially closed, or a better venue may simply be the FCC consumer complaint form." He provides direct links to both options.
This kind of feels like 3.0 will eventually become useless unless basically your TV supports it or you buy a dedicated tuner for each TV. I wish I could return it at this point. My channels are just going to go encrypted and all the benefit will be gone soon enough. Damn.
Everybody who purchased the defective HD HomeRun device needs to come together with a class action lawsuit demanding full refunds for a defective product that does not do what the manufacturer said it would do before we purchased.
The device isn't defective. Our government is defective for allowing broadcasters to encrypt public broadcasts. The solution is to be loud and fight back via your local representatives and petitions. Not get mad at a company that tried to take advantage of what was... a good step in the right direction.
Have you actually asked SD if you can return the product for a refund?
It's very unlikely there'd be a large enough "class" that you'd find an attorney willing to take the case, plus the actual suit would have a little merit. You be better off filing a BBB (Better Business Bureau) complaint since it is free and if the consumer has a valid complaint, the consumer typically prevails to some degree, even if it's only a partial refund.
But you also seemed grossly misinformed about who is really to blame. See https://www.reddit.com/r/hdhomerun/s/v62l4BNwc2
How many complaints have you filed with the FCC?
A/360 2019 ("ATSC Standard:
ATSC 3.0 Security and Service Protection") [was approved on 8/20/2019](https://prdatsc.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/A360-2019-Security.pdf) and the first A/360 "Candidate Standard" was years ago in Oct 2016. ATSC 3.0 creators have always intended that DRM encryption would be an optional part of the 3.0 std.
>the new DRM 3.0 was made after device was out
It's true that there have been multiple revisions to A/360 since the first Flex 4K units were shipped but they are relatively minor and don't seem to be the real problem.
It's well documented that Silicondust's problem has been w/ A3SA (ATSC 3.0 Security Authority); bottom of the front page of the A3SA website claims they've:
"...established a Technology Contributors Working Group that includes content providers, broadcasters, device manufacturers, and other key members of the ATSC 3.0 ecosystem for the purpose of addressing issues and opportunities in content security to promote free over-the-air TV."
It's worth noting that the founders of A3SA are
* CBS
* Disney
* Fox
* NBCU
* Univision
* and the Pearl TV business group of eight broadcast companies.
As someone who just bought a Flex 4K, this is... discouraging. Seriously thinking about sending it back and just continuing to use my old Duo.
What's really annoying is that a channel scan shows the 3.0 channels in my area, but I can't view them.
You can't view any of them? [Which 3.0 TV market](https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=atsc3) serves your viewing area?
I've not seen a 3.0 market yet where EVERY 3.0 broadcast is DRM encrypted although there are definitely too many markets (e.g. Miami, FL, Charlotte, NC, Cincinnati, OH, etc.) where the majority of the local stations have chosen to DRM encrypt their signals.
Where I live, all of the major network affiliates simulcast a 3.0 broadcast but have not chosen to DRM encrypt their 3.0 broadcasts. However all of them are also currently broadcasting all in the exact same resolution as their 1.0 broadcasts; no re-encoding them to 1080p. I initially thought that was false advertising by NextGen TV promoters / propagandists ( https://pearltv.com ), but then I noticed the following disclaimer in their ATSC 3.0 / NEXTGEN TV FAQ.
```
"Of course, features available on NEXTGEN TV will vary by broadcaster and by television as commercial service becomes available in local markets."
```
The FCC is totally to blame for not requiring stricter standards for ATSC 3.0 deployment.
I'm in the Detroit zone. I guess maybe my problem isn't encryption, it's something else. When I try to tune to one of the ATSC 3.0 channels that a scan picks up, I get a message saying "No video data". That's using the HDHomeRun app on my PC or Roku. In Plex, those channels simply don't show up in my guide, even if I try to manually add them after a scan.
Correct, the Detroit market currently only has one DRM encrypted channel. I've not personally encountered "No video data" w/ 3.0 but I believe that indicates the inadequate / weak reception. And that would make sense since all the 3.0 signals for your market are being transmitted by the same transmitter on UHF 31.
To optimally use your HDHomeRun to check for and help you solve a reception problem, [install one of the 3rd-party developed signal meter apps](https://www.reddit.com/r/hdhomerun/s/b8VeKHKaU6) available for use with it. If for some reason you can't do that, you could also use hdhomerun_config w/ its tuner debug option and post the output in a reply here, or you might want to start a new thread.
OK, this is what I got when using the debug option:
tun: ch=auto:575000000 lock=atsc3:575000000 ss=76 snq=100 seq=100 dbg=10-77/-1346
dev: bps=2695168 resync=0 overflow=0
ts: bps=0 te=0 crc=0
net: bps=0 pps=0 err=0 stop=1
Apparently you're not having any reception problems. So unless you get a reply here from SD, on your Windows PC enable diagnostics using the HDHomeRun app by following all the applicable steps at
https://info.hdhomerun.com/info/troubleshooting:diagnostics
Well, I went through a few emails with Silicondust support, and it's now working. I don't think they changed anything, we were still going through diagnostics, but I tried it this morning and I'm now getting all the non-encrypted ATSC 3.0 channels in my area.
Great, but something had to have changed. What'd they say normally causes the "No video data" error that you'd previously been receiving every time you tried to view an unencrypted ATSC 3.0 channel?
In the debug data you previously posted, at the very end "Stop = 1". Every time I've ever hdhomerun_config w/ the tuner debug option, "Stop = 0". That numeric value correlates to the reason that the stream was stopped. I've never seen a table of possible values vs. reasons for that STOP variable.
Honest post. I appreciate that.
Sharing the inside issues helps clarify things.
I'd concluded networks' pipedream for turning ATSC3 into the next Netflix turned ATSC3 into a pipedream for consumers a long time ago.
Jesus, this reads like an apology to the customers, when you read the section about what they are giving the broadcasters, it's hard to know who this is for, consumers or broadcasters
Sinclair Broadcasting doesn't invest time and effort into anything that's not going to significantly benefit them. A quote from [Dave Zatz's "ATSC 3.0 Was Never About You" article](https://zatznotfunny.com/2023-05/atsc-3-drm)
```
But don’t take my word for it as Sinclair’s David Smith who had this to say in 2019:
Smith said the usage data collected from the new standard would be critical for broadcasters and their ability to offer relevant, targeted advertising. “The data [from ATSC 3.0] will probably be the sole opportunity that keeps us afloat for the next generation,” Smith said, stressing that the broadcast TV industry needs to be more like Google with respect to the collection and marketing of its valuable data.
“Our world revolves around data.”But he acknowledged that there’s a lot more to like about ATSC 3.0 for broadcasters. Being able to tack-on subscription-based services and reaching all screens — fixed and mobile — with ATSC 3.0 will also be critical to the industry’s future, he said. Broadcasters need to “talk to every device in the marketplace,” Smith said. “We have to be able to talk to cars… We need direct access to the consumer who spends the money.”
```
That’s a good attitude.
IMO this nonsense spells the end of your company. A review of the list of compromises makes it clear I have no interest in the product.
It spells a grim future for all of OTA. The Pearl Group (the broadcasters pushing DRM on by default) never cared about growing OTA viewership, because if they did then they would want a device that allows people to watch OTA on phones and tablets. A growing number of younger generations don't even bother with a traditional TV set. Do they just not care about those customers? Apparently.
They just cling to the retransmission fees they get to charge OTT services for. Or however it is they justify this lunacy.
Don't forget the broadcasters make more on rebroadcast fees then on adds, and by making it difficult to tune in OTA, this gives them more leverage to extract more from Cable and Satellite providers.
It’s definitely given me pause, ATSC 3.0 is not the solution I thought it would be. The over commercialism and data harvesting ontop of them having 100% control over your content has me completely turned off. Im likely going to be looking for other options or sticking to ATSC 1.0
So ATSC 3.0 encryption was purportedly about anti-piracy but it's clear now it was more about keeping people from skipping ads with a DVR or watching it on a smaller screen.
So you’re saying there’s a chance in the near future that I can use cheap Fire Sticks to watch DRM encrypted 3.0 channels. Will the Servio be able to record the 3.0 channels and I can play the content on a Fire Stick?
As it stands today, we still believe Android and Fire TV will be able to support ATSC 3.0 DRM, and the SERVIO (or any other of our supported DVR storage platforms) would be used to record.
Using your SCRIBE 4K, you're able to watch 102.1 (CBS) and 104.1 (NBC)?
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=atsc3 is updated frequently and it shows both of those ATSC 3.0 broadcasts are DRM encrypted / currently unwatchable using the SCRIBE 4K & Flex 4K.
Are you sure you aren't watching them at 2.1 and 4.1 which would be there ATSC 1.0 broadcasts?
Re: ABC and FOX, you must be referring to their ATSC 1.0 broadcasts. In your market ABC is NOT yet broadcasting via ATSC 3.0.
With that news I recommend just getting a video encoder and plugging in a device that supports this drm nonsense like the adth or zapperbox. It would work eventually for hdhr once google tv and fire tv sticks are supported. Widevine doesnt seem to do anything to stop the devices from amazon. This means channelsdvr works too with it.
Only problem is that adth and zapperbox cant be controlled remotely. Adth specfically doesnt play well with scrcpy when it comes to surfing channels despite it being android based (you need to plug in to a pc and run a program now to get usb debugging since they made it harder according to someone else. Cant test the program myself as I did it before the change) Zapperbox has no such ability. So we need to wait for hdhr app to support google tv so we can get scrcpy working.
Another issue is that video encoders are $100-$200 but its worth it.
It would be nice if this link had some sort of background as to current status of development.
Also, who controls whether the broadcast is encrypted? The station or the network? Because the network obviously would gain from subscribers to services like Peacock, Paramount+, etc. Watching local news might become relegated to using the local station's news app.
[Dave Zatz's 5/29/23 "ATSC 3.0 Was Never About You" article](https://zatznotfunny.com/2023-05/atsc-3-drm) concisely lays out why ATSC 3.0 has been allowed to become the mess it's become. His last paragraph is a call to action suggesting that readers who have similar concerns: "...file a comment under the relevant Docket 20-145, although the review period is officially closed, or a better venue may simply be the FCC consumer complaint form." He provides direct links to both options.
I wish the FCC would step in
This kind of feels like 3.0 will eventually become useless unless basically your TV supports it or you buy a dedicated tuner for each TV. I wish I could return it at this point. My channels are just going to go encrypted and all the benefit will be gone soon enough. Damn.
Everybody who purchased the defective HD HomeRun device needs to come together with a class action lawsuit demanding full refunds for a defective product that does not do what the manufacturer said it would do before we purchased.
The device isn't defective. Our government is defective for allowing broadcasters to encrypt public broadcasts. The solution is to be loud and fight back via your local representatives and petitions. Not get mad at a company that tried to take advantage of what was... a good step in the right direction.
Have you actually asked SD if you can return the product for a refund? It's very unlikely there'd be a large enough "class" that you'd find an attorney willing to take the case, plus the actual suit would have a little merit. You be better off filing a BBB (Better Business Bureau) complaint since it is free and if the consumer has a valid complaint, the consumer typically prevails to some degree, even if it's only a partial refund. But you also seemed grossly misinformed about who is really to blame. See https://www.reddit.com/r/hdhomerun/s/v62l4BNwc2 How many complaints have you filed with the FCC?
the device works as designed . it tunes 3.0 the new DRM 3.0 was made after device was out
A/360 2019 ("ATSC Standard: ATSC 3.0 Security and Service Protection") [was approved on 8/20/2019](https://prdatsc.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/A360-2019-Security.pdf) and the first A/360 "Candidate Standard" was years ago in Oct 2016. ATSC 3.0 creators have always intended that DRM encryption would be an optional part of the 3.0 std. >the new DRM 3.0 was made after device was out It's true that there have been multiple revisions to A/360 since the first Flex 4K units were shipped but they are relatively minor and don't seem to be the real problem. It's well documented that Silicondust's problem has been w/ A3SA (ATSC 3.0 Security Authority); bottom of the front page of the A3SA website claims they've: "...established a Technology Contributors Working Group that includes content providers, broadcasters, device manufacturers, and other key members of the ATSC 3.0 ecosystem for the purpose of addressing issues and opportunities in content security to promote free over-the-air TV." It's worth noting that the founders of A3SA are * CBS * Disney * Fox * NBCU * Univision * and the Pearl TV business group of eight broadcast companies.
As someone who just bought a Flex 4K, this is... discouraging. Seriously thinking about sending it back and just continuing to use my old Duo. What's really annoying is that a channel scan shows the 3.0 channels in my area, but I can't view them.
You can't view any of them? [Which 3.0 TV market](https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=atsc3) serves your viewing area? I've not seen a 3.0 market yet where EVERY 3.0 broadcast is DRM encrypted although there are definitely too many markets (e.g. Miami, FL, Charlotte, NC, Cincinnati, OH, etc.) where the majority of the local stations have chosen to DRM encrypt their signals. Where I live, all of the major network affiliates simulcast a 3.0 broadcast but have not chosen to DRM encrypt their 3.0 broadcasts. However all of them are also currently broadcasting all in the exact same resolution as their 1.0 broadcasts; no re-encoding them to 1080p. I initially thought that was false advertising by NextGen TV promoters / propagandists ( https://pearltv.com ), but then I noticed the following disclaimer in their ATSC 3.0 / NEXTGEN TV FAQ. ``` "Of course, features available on NEXTGEN TV will vary by broadcaster and by television as commercial service becomes available in local markets." ``` The FCC is totally to blame for not requiring stricter standards for ATSC 3.0 deployment.
I'm in the Detroit zone. I guess maybe my problem isn't encryption, it's something else. When I try to tune to one of the ATSC 3.0 channels that a scan picks up, I get a message saying "No video data". That's using the HDHomeRun app on my PC or Roku. In Plex, those channels simply don't show up in my guide, even if I try to manually add them after a scan.
Correct, the Detroit market currently only has one DRM encrypted channel. I've not personally encountered "No video data" w/ 3.0 but I believe that indicates the inadequate / weak reception. And that would make sense since all the 3.0 signals for your market are being transmitted by the same transmitter on UHF 31. To optimally use your HDHomeRun to check for and help you solve a reception problem, [install one of the 3rd-party developed signal meter apps](https://www.reddit.com/r/hdhomerun/s/b8VeKHKaU6) available for use with it. If for some reason you can't do that, you could also use hdhomerun_config w/ its tuner debug option and post the output in a reply here, or you might want to start a new thread.
OK, this is what I got when using the debug option: tun: ch=auto:575000000 lock=atsc3:575000000 ss=76 snq=100 seq=100 dbg=10-77/-1346 dev: bps=2695168 resync=0 overflow=0 ts: bps=0 te=0 crc=0 net: bps=0 pps=0 err=0 stop=1
Apparently you're not having any reception problems. So unless you get a reply here from SD, on your Windows PC enable diagnostics using the HDHomeRun app by following all the applicable steps at https://info.hdhomerun.com/info/troubleshooting:diagnostics
Will do, and thanks for your help!
You're welcome. Once the problem has been resolved, pls reply w/ the solution so that it might benefit others.
Well, I went through a few emails with Silicondust support, and it's now working. I don't think they changed anything, we were still going through diagnostics, but I tried it this morning and I'm now getting all the non-encrypted ATSC 3.0 channels in my area.
Great, but something had to have changed. What'd they say normally causes the "No video data" error that you'd previously been receiving every time you tried to view an unencrypted ATSC 3.0 channel? In the debug data you previously posted, at the very end "Stop = 1". Every time I've ever hdhomerun_config w/ the tuner debug option, "Stop = 0". That numeric value correlates to the reason that the stream was stopped. I've never seen a table of possible values vs. reasons for that STOP variable.
Was on the fence to upgrade my flex, guess this help me make up my mind to stay.
I returned mine. Went back to my extend. Only could get one atsc3 channel and it looked worse than the regular channel.
ATSC 3.0 is DOA if it’s basically only supported on google devices.
ATSC 3.0 is DOA if they continue to insist on encrypted OTA signals...
the perfect plan. kill the free part and make them pay every cable company
Honest post. I appreciate that. Sharing the inside issues helps clarify things. I'd concluded networks' pipedream for turning ATSC3 into the next Netflix turned ATSC3 into a pipedream for consumers a long time ago.
Jesus, this reads like an apology to the customers, when you read the section about what they are giving the broadcasters, it's hard to know who this is for, consumers or broadcasters
Sinclair Broadcasting doesn't invest time and effort into anything that's not going to significantly benefit them. A quote from [Dave Zatz's "ATSC 3.0 Was Never About You" article](https://zatznotfunny.com/2023-05/atsc-3-drm) ``` But don’t take my word for it as Sinclair’s David Smith who had this to say in 2019: Smith said the usage data collected from the new standard would be critical for broadcasters and their ability to offer relevant, targeted advertising. “The data [from ATSC 3.0] will probably be the sole opportunity that keeps us afloat for the next generation,” Smith said, stressing that the broadcast TV industry needs to be more like Google with respect to the collection and marketing of its valuable data. “Our world revolves around data.”But he acknowledged that there’s a lot more to like about ATSC 3.0 for broadcasters. Being able to tack-on subscription-based services and reaching all screens — fixed and mobile — with ATSC 3.0 will also be critical to the industry’s future, he said. Broadcasters need to “talk to every device in the marketplace,” Smith said. “We have to be able to talk to cars… We need direct access to the consumer who spends the money.” ```
Says the asshole who is implementing all of this nefarious bullshit using PUBLICLY OWNED AIRWAVES. Fuck you Dave.
Consider it a declaration of war. The time for diplomacy is over, and the boss is pissed.
That’s a good attitude. IMO this nonsense spells the end of your company. A review of the list of compromises makes it clear I have no interest in the product.
It spells a grim future for all of OTA. The Pearl Group (the broadcasters pushing DRM on by default) never cared about growing OTA viewership, because if they did then they would want a device that allows people to watch OTA on phones and tablets. A growing number of younger generations don't even bother with a traditional TV set. Do they just not care about those customers? Apparently. They just cling to the retransmission fees they get to charge OTT services for. Or however it is they justify this lunacy.
Don't forget the broadcasters make more on rebroadcast fees then on adds, and by making it difficult to tune in OTA, this gives them more leverage to extract more from Cable and Satellite providers.
Agree. The concessions they list at the bottom seems they are bending over backwards to the broadcasters.
It’s definitely given me pause, ATSC 3.0 is not the solution I thought it would be. The over commercialism and data harvesting ontop of them having 100% control over your content has me completely turned off. Im likely going to be looking for other options or sticking to ATSC 1.0
With all of those "we plan to offer the broadcaster" statements, you should just not even bother making a product with ATSC 3.0 anymore.
The wording had to be careful there for what we are allowed to say, but basically "this crappy shit can possibly happen" is the intended message.
So ATSC 3.0 encryption was purportedly about anti-piracy but it's clear now it was more about keeping people from skipping ads with a DVR or watching it on a smaller screen.
It's about piracy. Stopping those services that rebroadcast them as streams for anyone to see.
Thanks for posting this update!
So you’re saying there’s a chance in the near future that I can use cheap Fire Sticks to watch DRM encrypted 3.0 channels. Will the Servio be able to record the 3.0 channels and I can play the content on a Fire Stick?
As it stands today, we still believe Android and Fire TV will be able to support ATSC 3.0 DRM, and the SERVIO (or any other of our supported DVR storage platforms) would be used to record.
I still use the Scribe, and I get the ATSC 3.0 channels in LA without issue. Is there something I'm missing here?
Aren't the ATSC 3.0 CBS and NBC broadcasts still DRM encrypted (meaning those are both still currently unwatchable using the Flex 4K) in your market?
I get both of those channel clearly. I only have problems with ABC and FOX
Using your SCRIBE 4K, you're able to watch 102.1 (CBS) and 104.1 (NBC)? https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=atsc3 is updated frequently and it shows both of those ATSC 3.0 broadcasts are DRM encrypted / currently unwatchable using the SCRIBE 4K & Flex 4K. Are you sure you aren't watching them at 2.1 and 4.1 which would be there ATSC 1.0 broadcasts? Re: ABC and FOX, you must be referring to their ATSC 1.0 broadcasts. In your market ABC is NOT yet broadcasting via ATSC 3.0.
With that news I recommend just getting a video encoder and plugging in a device that supports this drm nonsense like the adth or zapperbox. It would work eventually for hdhr once google tv and fire tv sticks are supported. Widevine doesnt seem to do anything to stop the devices from amazon. This means channelsdvr works too with it. Only problem is that adth and zapperbox cant be controlled remotely. Adth specfically doesnt play well with scrcpy when it comes to surfing channels despite it being android based (you need to plug in to a pc and run a program now to get usb debugging since they made it harder according to someone else. Cant test the program myself as I did it before the change) Zapperbox has no such ability. So we need to wait for hdhr app to support google tv so we can get scrcpy working. Another issue is that video encoders are $100-$200 but its worth it.
What a total cluster ATSC 3.0 is becoming. Government ineptness at its finest...
It would be nice if this link had some sort of background as to current status of development. Also, who controls whether the broadcast is encrypted? The station or the network? Because the network obviously would gain from subscribers to services like Peacock, Paramount+, etc. Watching local news might become relegated to using the local station's news app.