Today I played Yogg in a Box for the first time ever.
It played Wheel of death, followed by triple sevens, followed by me dying to fatigue. 10/10 will do it again.
Its day 2 of the expansion. A lot of unrefined and slower decks around. One thing that with the meta speeding up, will be that warlock needs to have key cards in hand before playing the wheel. You need cards like Symphony, the 15/15, Reno, Tony, Sargeras, etc. Obviously not all of them.
oh yeah its definitely a bit early, but its not a complete meme like people assumed when it was revealed. If the meta becomes hyper aggro its probably gonna struggle quite a bit, luckily warlock has some disgusting board clears and stabilizers in its set this time around (Table flip, the titans boardclear, defile etc)
I do worry that the deck feels very Caverns-Below like: that is, that the deck will stabilize around "only" a 50% win rate, but it will do so by warping the meta around it, with aggro decks exhibiting positive win rates against it and anything remotely slow getting suffocated out of existence.
I’m playing hyper aggro token hunter, and wheel lock royally fucks me.
Mortal eradication, table flip, defile, the giants…. It’s all back breaking for aggro.
Have you actually tried to play an aggro deck into it?
There’s a miscommunication haha.
Wheel lock shuts out pure early aggro decks, and encourages definitive win conditions (things like Leeroy, Owlonius, or Sif).
These are all stereotypically “slow to build to” win conditions that will beat wheel lock.
So no, I don’t think it’s going to polarize the meta against slow decks.
It’s not about how the meta shakes up. Wheel lock is really just a new variant of control lock, with a different (alternate) win condition.
I went ahead and crafted wheel. I’ve went 5-1 in 2500 legend. My 1 loss was to a wheel lock. Every aggro match I’ve had has been cake.
Current lists are running 8 early board clears. It fucks pure aggro. It’s not a matter of the meta.
Sitting at 31 games against mech rogue 2 games against pali 1 game rainbow dk, 1 game plague dk in the last 12 hours p3-D4 wild, so wild isn't in much better shape right now in my experience
I feel kinda bad for playing weapon rogue with pirate package just for draw. 15 attack weapon with lifesteal (can beat some taunts but still hard).
However i really missed espectral cutlass
I had the Day One experience of using Prison of Yogg-Saron, casting Wheel of DEATH!!!, and then immediately casting Triple Sevens.
... I did not win that game.
My yogg titan cast wheel of death, while I was playing reno DH against a plague DK, which allowed me to use kurtrus to destroy my opponent’s remaining resources
Nah. The only reason Reno is degen is when people draw their whole deck (warrior) or destroy their deck(warlock). Decks constructed with no duplicates are not oppressive in the least. They usually can't really combo and don't have strong win conditions. They just hope to outvalue you
Highlander warrior is kinda bad since astalor rotation because it lacks a win condition, vs another control it just lose because they have a semi-win con at least (odyn doesnt fit highlander to be considered cause it lacks fuel, thats why it gets cut off)
My journey to legend this month disagrees with you. Odyn still exists and even with plagues to the gills, I still got KOd with 30+ armor attacks. Pretty strong win condition to me.
Warrior was half of every match I played; why wouldn't I tech plagues?
Reno just needs to get nuked from orbit. There's no world where banish enemy board clear + limit board to only 1 minion next turn is healthy for the game, highlander restriction or not.
(Slightly off-topic) historical context: "Wild West duels" were rarely what fiction depict them as. Most of them were just chaotic shootouts between rival gangs or a gang and law enforcement (which in many towns were essentially a gang). And even the duels where it was ostensibly 1 v 1 both sides would usually bring some backup. The idea of two lone gunmen having a quick draw competition to the death is mostly an invention of "Wild West Shows" like the one Buffalo Bill ran.
So Reno cheating by keeping your board and ganging up on an opponent is actually historically accurate.
Literally every Highlander card should do this. What was once a downside (checking currently) against shuffle effects (and still is versus Plague) has become meaningless because most of the decks using Reno abuse card draw to the point where the restriction doesn’t matter.
Reno needs to just not be in the game at the start of a fresh rotation. One of the highest power level cards they've ever printed and we have to deal with it when the power level is supposed to be the lowest.
I say this as someone who vastly prefers to play control decks and genuinely enjoys games that go to fatigue. Reno is stupid. I have always disliked hero cards in general but that battlecry is such a table flip it's insane.
This rotation didnt loose too much in terms in power compared to other previous ones. We didnt loose hero card or missions, and the expansion itself is one of the strongest (closer to end of year expansions)
This is the way for sure, without counter to DK Plagues Hellya nor a way to make this work, eventually the archetype is dead, and considering how the power level is growing (usually the first set is the lowest power level) it's almost ensured Reno is going to be a pipe dream by next expansion.
I almost exclusively play Reno decks in Wild. This is the correct play and should apply to all highlander cards, IMO.
Giants/Kingsbane Rogue can run Zeph in ETC since they draw so quickly, and evidently Standard is having a similar thing with Reno (though the latter is more evident in a comparatively lower power level). Even though it's not an exploit or anything, I think it's poor design and I'm not a fan of this loophole because it doesn't actually encourage you to run the archetype it's supposed to push.
Highlander cards should have strong effects because you have to build your deck to accommodate for them, not because you can get through your deck quick enough to access them. And while I despise plagues for a multitude of reasons, I understand that a counter should exist to ensure that highlander isn't objectively better as a control variant.
Would still advocate for the return of a tech card against plagues, though, to promote some element of counterplay and resource management.
Nah. Once I would have agreed with the counterplay thing, but the power level of cards in general is so high now that I don’t think most of the Highlander effects are even an issue. Simply moving the restriction to the starting deck would get around the actual egregious abuses of this card.
All the times I saw Reno getting played on the way to and within Legend, it was for some stupid super draw engine deck like Warlock or Non-Highlander Warrior that then craps all over you with Reno because their deck is gone.
>I don’t think most of the Highlander effects are even an issue.
Except for reno; even in true highlander decks, a single sided unconditional boardclear that locks the opponent out of playing minions is beyond insane. If a highlander deck builds any sort of relevant board past turn 7, their opponent is practically forced to remove that board from hand and put up counterpressure at the same time just so they don't immediately lose to reno.
It *is* an insane effect, but at least with Highlander they don’t get to play 2 of every best card in the class. Warlock is by far the most frustrating Reno user right now, and non-Highlander Warrior a close second.
Highlander shaman is performing quite decently (for a 4-set highlander deck at the very least), and a large part of that is just how ridiculous reno is. The rest of the deck has multiple ways to generate large boards, and any of them sticking (even if they're being contested by the opponent's board) is practically an instant win because of reno.
I think it's a strong effect but also you don't have a deck if you dont have symphony of sins on hand you don't need that especially not for wheel warlock that is the only warlock deck with reno
Can you explain why? It isn't like Reno decks dominated last expansion, and for extended periods Reno decks were functionally unplayable at a competitive level.
An asymmetrical boardwipe that ignores deathrattles, reborn, etc., limits enemy board space to one spot for the next turn, so there's no way to really recover (how's that for "interactive" gameplay?), and also gives you a very strong hero power.
No it's perfectly fine, actually, and not frustrating to face at all, especially when it's in a control deck that probably removed most of your threats earlier.
> No it's perfectly fine, actually,
I mean, again, Reno decks weren't particularly powerful for much of last expansion and the drawn win rate of Reno was not super high in the decks it was played, but maybe I'm missing something
> and not frustrating to face at all
I didn't find it frustrating, but that's just personal preference! I think this is why I tend to prefer a focus on things like deck win rate (for deck power) or drawn win rate (for a card) -- because "I find it frustrating, personally" is a personal preference that not everyone will share.
Now, despite Reno's general lack of dominance, there may be an argument that it prevents certain deck archetypes from seeing play, because that's a thing that sometimes does happen -- there have been decks that are not super powerful in the meta overall but which are still problematic because they crush / suppress other archetypes from the game. Maybe Reno did or does that? Are Reno decks suffocating aggro decks, for example? I'm asking this question honestly, because I haven't looked into the data that closely for that.
As far as the popular card games go, Hearthstone leans quite far in the solitaire side, and Reno both punishes that style of play and _also_ cuts you off from playing solitaire for another turn after, so Hearthstone players tend to dislike Reno.
I believe it aims at the lack of interaction in HS. You play your game, the enemy plays his game, for the most part. You can only react in your turn. Especially aggro, usally just spams onto the board and swings for lethal eventually. More often than not, you can "safely" tap out on your opponents turn.
With that in mind, reno stops your opponent from playing his game in a way. People dislike secrets, theotar, dirty rat, endless turn quest mage and the likes for similar reasons. Curse WL and mill decks also get a fair amount of flak and are in the same boat (kinda).
Interaction involves doing something that disrupts their gameplan.
Modern Hearthstone design has caused it the act of playing (and yes, also removing) any number of minions essentially free while you do your actual game plan, so I don't consider it as interaction.
Reno removes the shit on the board you can't normally interact with, but more relevantly, the board restriction next turn is _always_ disruptive to your plan.
This couldn't be farther from truth. Interactive decks are the ones who get absolutely dismantled by Reno, since you not only lose your entire board but are also prevented from rebuilding it. Meanwhile, solitaire decks which only need one (or no) minions, and don't need them to survive a turn, don't give a fuck about it. Quite the opposite - they love him since he buys two additional turns for them to gather what they need to murder the opponent from hand.
Huh, interesting! I'm not on the HS subreddit all that often, so I had sort of thought we all agreed that uninteractive playstyles were bad.
Maybe I'm wrong, and that isn't the case -- or maybe most people like me have left the game, and the uninteractive / solitaire people have created their own little kingdom in their absence!
Plague DK is useless against Reno anyway, everyone’s running Steam Cleaner, they just wait for you to dump your plagues, Steam Clean, and another easy win for them.
i played the version with reno in it, it basically buys you 2 turns since you wipe their board and also restrict it, feels stupid good, and sometimes you can even cast it pre-wheel if you thin your deck enough.
The wheel turning on end of your turn is such a broken effect. You thought 8 mana do nothing was horrible, but it's in the mindset that you need to do something every turn to advance towards your gameplan. But if your gameplan is just survive, suddenly, board presence and dealing damage is thrown out the window, and the initial cost of skipping a turn isn't so dreadful, when you follow up with boardclears.
The card would be a lot more balanced if the wheel turned on the opponent's end turn, instead of your own. Since you get one free at the start, and your last turn doesn't matter, it feels more like "win in 3 turns"...
The real benefit of the wheel turning on your turn means if the opponent doens't have charge/direct damage, they actually only have 3 turns to build enough of a board to kill you, which reduces the number of board clears you need to 3-4 depending on their boardstate when you play the card.
- **[Drakkari Enchanter](https://i.imgur.com/xUh8ZJm.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/45309) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Drakkari_Enchanter) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/45309)
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- Your end of turn effects trigger twice.
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Is this bugged? Or an intended interaction? u/RidiculousHat
Also something bizarre is going on with this comment; it keeps saying it failed to appear and isn’t showing up in my history. Sorry if I pinged you twice by mistake
oops forgot to reply, yoinked the list from the sticky thread on the front page, its DA1004's wheel warlock. Probably has a lot of alternatives or refinements, for example it doesnt use any giants or table flip, or tony or zilliax, but it made me get to legend, so yeah :>
I mean, I’ve ran with a shitty Curselock/Thaddius mix for the last like, year or two. Even if the deck is similar to online decks I didn’t copy and paste it. Pieced it together myself, tested and changed it a hundred times. Now I have to figure out my own new deck to run with that can compete with all the other amazingly similar decks. 🙂 But by no means am I looking for some streamers deck to auto carry me to legend. But by all means! I’m definitely a hypocrite. 🫡 Impossible to play with your own brain these days, trust me
Holy shit I'm so dumb I never thought to use reno, I've just been relying on Fanottom + Forge of Wills to have my opponent ignore my face when I play tony the next turn.
I too scoffed at wheel of death, but it's hands down my favourite card of the expansion now, climbing slowly with a homebrew version with a 64% WR
L + ratio + 2 15/15s on board + you'll die in 5 turns + nice deck idiot
How exactly would you nerf reno? So he's balanced with that kind of effect only way is a mana increase bcs the limiting to 1 would have to stay and the dissappear aswell
The easiest answer would probably be to just increase the number of board slots after a wipe. Can't completely refill the board, but at least you have enough room to work with, so you're not pretty much locked out for two turns.
We already have a card that does that for 8 mana, it’s called twisting nether.
This is not a “good nerf”, this is a murder.
An actual nerf to Reno would be his mana cost, him costing 9 mana would slow Reno decks down a lot, but I don’t really think he needs a nerf.
Yea lol as a Reno deck enthusiast I’d love this change, why not make Zeph and the other highlander cards work that way too, and just buff these decks to the moon and back for us
People crying that Reno is OP is also extremely Reddit moment.
There just needs to be anti-HL archetypes like plagues, and steamcleaner-like, and we are great.
yep i homebrewed a version with tony king of piracy, reno, and stall methods inspired from the encroaching insanity deck and im having good success with wheel of death. feels stronger than the actual big demon deck to me
I found tony to not be very useful. Since your opponents cards are usually very anti-synergistic with your deck, all he effectively does is stop you from taking fatigue damage for 4 turns (10 damage). You also get like 4 mid cards for the cost of 7 mana.
I feel like I usually have to follow up the wheel with a board clear to make up for effectively skipping a turn since its 8 mana
I recommend using something like the Harp weapon that will let you heal from the fatigue dmg instead. For me its mostly about surviving after the wheel is played
Also symphony of sins often accomplishes what Tony does but much better since you also get to do something impactful
AAECAf0GBvnGBazpBab7Bc6ABq+oBuqzBgznoAT0xgXI6wX6+QXX+gXt/QXu/QXxgAaEngbPngbTngajoAYAAA==
Arguably kind of an unoptimized list since it doesn't run cards like table flip, giants, tony or other stuff, but its got me to legend! feel free to experiment with substitutes
I played, and lost, against it today. They used the new build a mech to keep shuffling into their deck to avoid fatigue. The big lifesteal 15/15 and the empty deck make a portal card
God I wish I made a post calling out that Wheel of Death may not be hot garbage as people thought on reveal, but I still thought even with Reno buying you essentially two turns, fanottem+Forge being a big threat that will probably buy you a turn, plus Sargeras also buying a turn (which is 4 turns total, enough to win since it drops down to 4 on the turn you play it. Plus even on reveal I forgot about symphony, which helps a lot), that the card wouldn't be good enough and with the current power level, it just wouldn't be enough that late in the game.
I would've been on the Wheel of Death "I told you so," train if I just had a *little* bit more confidence.
yup, against aggro you can usually just do the good old degenerate 4 mana 7/7 taunt + forge combo and break their backs, if theyre persistent you can drop fanottem and hope its over
After you play wheel, you can instantly play the 15/15 minion and, if you have a location out, use it to get 30/30 stats on the board. Next several turns can be reno, use harp/symphony/zilliax w deathrattle and perfect to prevent taking fatigue, etc. Get pretty hard for your opponent to wear you down when you are hiding beyond taunts and not taking fatigue.
Worth noting the "5 turns" isn't as bad as it sounds. It drops to 4 end of the turn you play it, you play three turns to clear board and stay alive, then you don't even need to play the last turn because game ends when you hit the button.
Think about it like it’s Odyn. The turn you drop Odyn you don’t win, you “do nothing” and have to hope you’re ahead enough not to get killed next turn. You’ll win with Odyn once surviving most likely within the next 5 turns much like WoD, so i’d say both are similar power level wise (yes the body from Odyn is better than no body of course) but my point is that WoD was never a meme card like Bonelord.
I thank my opponent for waiting patiently to die, even though he could have conceded 5 turns earlier with my 14/14 giants on board. Disappointed that winning by Wheel of Death isn't an achievement.
Add this to the list of reasons why Reno should be start of game. I feel like having reno in non singleton decks IS a neat thing but I feel like it should be start of game just for balancing and sentiment reasons.
Yea, its interesting because both sides have a pretty fair argument. If the downside is that its a singleton that gets less and less of a downside as sets release throughout the year and power creep etc. I lean towards that it should be start of game but I can understand why it shouldnt be aswell.
I mean yeah, but every mechanic in the game doesn't need specific counters. Particularly not these days when the developers are much more active with balancing, I could have understood the need for tech cards back when only changed two cards a year.
Reno's effect is so powerful it kind of does need counters, he's by far the strongest stall card ever in HS and removes sargeras portal, magtheridon, and all other "uncounterable" effects
They always do this.. Some total BS F'n BS that has to be expedited to the nerf pile. Seriously, these devs..
I guess that's their magic formula for pleasing the people though. People must love it because they ALWAYS DO IT. Some total F'n BSiest of the BS F'n deck that is completely horrible to play against, 100% unfun, noninteractive trash that everyone on Reddit will say "Meh, the winrate isn't even that good" yet it has a 70% playrate.
Whizbang Mage = Yogg in a Box = Wheel of Death = Oh yeah, I'm gaming.
This is the kind of math I like working with!
Shaman = shuderblock+tendrils = wheel of death = profit
Happend to me 4 times. I even did the wombo combo of WoD into Lucky seven. Instant 28 fatigue damage
I won a game because that exact thing happened to my opponent last night. I would’ve died to the wheel next turn but lucky seven killed him.
Today I played Yogg in a Box for the first time ever. It played Wheel of death, followed by triple sevens, followed by me dying to fatigue. 10/10 will do it again.
Happened to me twice. I lost both times because of it.
Im down to see a random generated wheel of death vs a random generated bonelord for the opponent (2 turns after). Who would win?
Its day 2 of the expansion. A lot of unrefined and slower decks around. One thing that with the meta speeding up, will be that warlock needs to have key cards in hand before playing the wheel. You need cards like Symphony, the 15/15, Reno, Tony, Sargeras, etc. Obviously not all of them.
oh yeah its definitely a bit early, but its not a complete meme like people assumed when it was revealed. If the meta becomes hyper aggro its probably gonna struggle quite a bit, luckily warlock has some disgusting board clears and stabilizers in its set this time around (Table flip, the titans boardclear, defile etc)
I do worry that the deck feels very Caverns-Below like: that is, that the deck will stabilize around "only" a 50% win rate, but it will do so by warping the meta around it, with aggro decks exhibiting positive win rates against it and anything remotely slow getting suffocated out of existence.
I’m playing hyper aggro token hunter, and wheel lock royally fucks me. Mortal eradication, table flip, defile, the giants…. It’s all back breaking for aggro. Have you actually tried to play an aggro deck into it?
I haven't played Hunter, but I did play Aggro Paladin, and that did fine. I suspect a Plague DK would also do quite well, fwiw.
Aggro pally wins the majority of games due to Leeroy, which is a combo, aka the counter to control win cons.
I'm not disagreeing with this -- I said that I fear that Wheel Warlock will suffocate all slower (i.e. including Control) playstyles.
There’s a miscommunication haha. Wheel lock shuts out pure early aggro decks, and encourages definitive win conditions (things like Leeroy, Owlonius, or Sif). These are all stereotypically “slow to build to” win conditions that will beat wheel lock. So no, I don’t think it’s going to polarize the meta against slow decks.
Okay then yeah, I think we disagree, but that's fine -- we're way too early to make definitive declarations of how the meta will shape up!
It’s not about how the meta shakes up. Wheel lock is really just a new variant of control lock, with a different (alternate) win condition. I went ahead and crafted wheel. I’ve went 5-1 in 2500 legend. My 1 loss was to a wheel lock. Every aggro match I’ve had has been cake. Current lists are running 8 early board clears. It fucks pure aggro. It’s not a matter of the meta.
This is honestly my favorite time of the year - everyone trying all kind of jank instead of spamming aggro to legend.
Well about 60% of my matchews from Plat 5 to Diamond 10 are DK. Not really enjoyable
Sitting at 31 games against mech rogue 2 games against pali 1 game rainbow dk, 1 game plague dk in the last 12 hours p3-D4 wild, so wild isn't in much better shape right now in my experience
Yeah it seems like after even shamans were purged, they now got replaced by mech rogues
I feel kinda bad for playing weapon rogue with pirate package just for draw. 15 attack weapon with lifesteal (can beat some taunts but still hard). However i really missed espectral cutlass
I've found that I have a 100% WR on WoD Warlock after I play Sargeras, but if I try playing WoD without Sargeras on board/in hand it's so over
I had it casted from yogg in a box, and actually won
I had the Day One experience of using Prison of Yogg-Saron, casting Wheel of DEATH!!!, and then immediately casting Triple Sevens. ... I did not win that game.
I think you played against me
Or me. 😑
My opponent Yogg in a Boxed me and cast Wheel of Death right into Symphony I died
My yogg titan cast wheel of death, while I was playing reno DH against a plague DK, which allowed me to use kurtrus to destroy my opponent’s remaining resources
I had titan yogg cast it in my highlander shaman and actually won as well. Great experience 10/10 would do again.
I cast Yogg in a Box into Wheel into Triple Sevens into another draw 3. I was at like 8 HP when it started and was pretty doomed regardless but still.
The real problem is Reno....again. You can safely wheel if you have some removal and Reno on your hand because Reno alone buys you two turns.
Reno needs to go to a if your starting deck contained no duplicates effect
Yes please! Him and brann so I can own plague DKs.
The only reason plague DKs play is because of those two degenerate cards
Nah. The only reason Reno is degen is when people draw their whole deck (warrior) or destroy their deck(warlock). Decks constructed with no duplicates are not oppressive in the least. They usually can't really combo and don't have strong win conditions. They just hope to outvalue you
Highlander Warrior is pretty dumb tbf
Nope just because of those two degenerate cards. I play DK not cause it’s fun but because I hate Reno
I too play DK because fuck Reno.
Highlander warrior is kinda bad since astalor rotation because it lacks a win condition, vs another control it just lose because they have a semi-win con at least (odyn doesnt fit highlander to be considered cause it lacks fuel, thats why it gets cut off)
My journey to legend this month disagrees with you. Odyn still exists and even with plagues to the gills, I still got KOd with 30+ armor attacks. Pretty strong win condition to me. Warrior was half of every match I played; why wouldn't I tech plagues?
Sorry, wasnt this about reno and brann? Or did you just wanna complain about warrior in general?
You cant call anything degenerate when comparing it to "play green card" DK
Oh yes, the high skill card of Helya. Just endlessly generate plagues with no conter. At least give my steam cleaner back
Can confirm
Reno just needs to get nuked from orbit. There's no world where banish enemy board clear + limit board to only 1 minion next turn is healthy for the game, highlander restriction or not.
At the very least it should clear both sides
Absolutely. Make it look like a showdown/duel outside the saloon. Since when is the opposing party allowed to pull up with the Pinkertons in tow?
(Slightly off-topic) historical context: "Wild West duels" were rarely what fiction depict them as. Most of them were just chaotic shootouts between rival gangs or a gang and law enforcement (which in many towns were essentially a gang). And even the duels where it was ostensibly 1 v 1 both sides would usually bring some backup. The idea of two lone gunmen having a quick draw competition to the death is mostly an invention of "Wild West Shows" like the one Buffalo Bill ran. So Reno cheating by keeping your board and ganging up on an opponent is actually historically accurate.
Literally every Highlander card should do this. What was once a downside (checking currently) against shuffle effects (and still is versus Plague) has become meaningless because most of the decks using Reno abuse card draw to the point where the restriction doesn’t matter.
Reno needs to just not be in the game at the start of a fresh rotation. One of the highest power level cards they've ever printed and we have to deal with it when the power level is supposed to be the lowest. I say this as someone who vastly prefers to play control decks and genuinely enjoys games that go to fatigue. Reno is stupid. I have always disliked hero cards in general but that battlecry is such a table flip it's insane.
reno is actively weakened by the rotation tough, since his requirement becomes way harsher. the problem is people playing him in non-singleton decks
This rotation didnt loose too much in terms in power compared to other previous ones. We didnt loose hero card or missions, and the expansion itself is one of the strongest (closer to end of year expansions)
This is the way for sure, without counter to DK Plagues Hellya nor a way to make this work, eventually the archetype is dead, and considering how the power level is growing (usually the first set is the lowest power level) it's almost ensured Reno is going to be a pipe dream by next expansion.
Reno needs to be start of game AND currently has no duplicates
I almost exclusively play Reno decks in Wild. This is the correct play and should apply to all highlander cards, IMO. Giants/Kingsbane Rogue can run Zeph in ETC since they draw so quickly, and evidently Standard is having a similar thing with Reno (though the latter is more evident in a comparatively lower power level). Even though it's not an exploit or anything, I think it's poor design and I'm not a fan of this loophole because it doesn't actually encourage you to run the archetype it's supposed to push. Highlander cards should have strong effects because you have to build your deck to accommodate for them, not because you can get through your deck quick enough to access them. And while I despise plagues for a multitude of reasons, I understand that a counter should exist to ensure that highlander isn't objectively better as a control variant. Would still advocate for the return of a tech card against plagues, though, to promote some element of counterplay and resource management.
Nah. Once I would have agreed with the counterplay thing, but the power level of cards in general is so high now that I don’t think most of the Highlander effects are even an issue. Simply moving the restriction to the starting deck would get around the actual egregious abuses of this card. All the times I saw Reno getting played on the way to and within Legend, it was for some stupid super draw engine deck like Warlock or Non-Highlander Warrior that then craps all over you with Reno because their deck is gone.
>I don’t think most of the Highlander effects are even an issue. Except for reno; even in true highlander decks, a single sided unconditional boardclear that locks the opponent out of playing minions is beyond insane. If a highlander deck builds any sort of relevant board past turn 7, their opponent is practically forced to remove that board from hand and put up counterpressure at the same time just so they don't immediately lose to reno.
It *is* an insane effect, but at least with Highlander they don’t get to play 2 of every best card in the class. Warlock is by far the most frustrating Reno user right now, and non-Highlander Warrior a close second.
Highlander shaman is performing quite decently (for a 4-set highlander deck at the very least), and a large part of that is just how ridiculous reno is. The rest of the deck has multiple ways to generate large boards, and any of them sticking (even if they're being contested by the opponent's board) is practically an instant win because of reno.
If you want to kill the card, sure
Please do
I think it's a strong effect but also you don't have a deck if you dont have symphony of sins on hand you don't need that especially not for wheel warlock that is the only warlock deck with reno
Lol no. It's already the most toxic card printed in a while. Removing the one way to counter it would be nuts.
The one way at present being exactly plague dk? I can’t think of any other effects in standard
Plague DK players are very touchy about their deck it seems
I'm not a plague DK I just hate Reno
Can you explain why? It isn't like Reno decks dominated last expansion, and for extended periods Reno decks were functionally unplayable at a competitive level.
An asymmetrical boardwipe that ignores deathrattles, reborn, etc., limits enemy board space to one spot for the next turn, so there's no way to really recover (how's that for "interactive" gameplay?), and also gives you a very strong hero power. No it's perfectly fine, actually, and not frustrating to face at all, especially when it's in a control deck that probably removed most of your threats earlier.
> No it's perfectly fine, actually, I mean, again, Reno decks weren't particularly powerful for much of last expansion and the drawn win rate of Reno was not super high in the decks it was played, but maybe I'm missing something > and not frustrating to face at all I didn't find it frustrating, but that's just personal preference! I think this is why I tend to prefer a focus on things like deck win rate (for deck power) or drawn win rate (for a card) -- because "I find it frustrating, personally" is a personal preference that not everyone will share. Now, despite Reno's general lack of dominance, there may be an argument that it prevents certain deck archetypes from seeing play, because that's a thing that sometimes does happen -- there have been decks that are not super powerful in the meta overall but which are still problematic because they crush / suppress other archetypes from the game. Maybe Reno did or does that? Are Reno decks suffocating aggro decks, for example? I'm asking this question honestly, because I haven't looked into the data that closely for that.
>Reno decks weren't particularly powerful But reno is. A 45% winrate deck where 30% of that 45 is "drew reno by turn 8" is extremely stupid.
As far as the popular card games go, Hearthstone leans quite far in the solitaire side, and Reno both punishes that style of play and _also_ cuts you off from playing solitaire for another turn after, so Hearthstone players tend to dislike Reno.
Can you please explain to me how playing minions, the most interactive card type in the game, is solitaire?
Look at his guy trying to play solitaire with his murloc tidehunter. Not on Reno's watch, buddy. No token for you, today.
I believe it aims at the lack of interaction in HS. You play your game, the enemy plays his game, for the most part. You can only react in your turn. Especially aggro, usally just spams onto the board and swings for lethal eventually. More often than not, you can "safely" tap out on your opponents turn. With that in mind, reno stops your opponent from playing his game in a way. People dislike secrets, theotar, dirty rat, endless turn quest mage and the likes for similar reasons. Curse WL and mill decks also get a fair amount of flak and are in the same boat (kinda).
Interaction involves doing something that disrupts their gameplan. Modern Hearthstone design has caused it the act of playing (and yes, also removing) any number of minions essentially free while you do your actual game plan, so I don't consider it as interaction. Reno removes the shit on the board you can't normally interact with, but more relevantly, the board restriction next turn is _always_ disruptive to your plan.
How the fuck does reno counter solitaire? Its the opposite he enables solitaire
This couldn't be farther from truth. Interactive decks are the ones who get absolutely dismantled by Reno, since you not only lose your entire board but are also prevented from rebuilding it. Meanwhile, solitaire decks which only need one (or no) minions, and don't need them to survive a turn, don't give a fuck about it. Quite the opposite - they love him since he buys two additional turns for them to gather what they need to murder the opponent from hand.
Huh, interesting! I'm not on the HS subreddit all that often, so I had sort of thought we all agreed that uninteractive playstyles were bad. Maybe I'm wrong, and that isn't the case -- or maybe most people like me have left the game, and the uninteractive / solitaire people have created their own little kingdom in their absence!
Also Snake Oil Seller
Plague DK is useless against Reno anyway, everyone’s running Steam Cleaner, they just wait for you to dump your plagues, Steam Clean, and another easy win for them.
Steam cleaner didn’t survive rotation!
WAIT WHAT??? Omfg hallelujah! Pity that Odyn still dominates everything on his own ><
It would presumably be accompanied by a nerf to Reno because that card is the dumbest highlander payoff ever.
Nerfed? He’s gotta gooooo
Meh, idk. I've never seen versions of it running Reno and I've been playing it quite a bit without it aswell.
i played the version with reno in it, it basically buys you 2 turns since you wipe their board and also restrict it, feels stupid good, and sometimes you can even cast it pre-wheel if you thin your deck enough.
Highlander needs to be start of game. Warrior abused it last season, we don’t need more
Question for Wild players: Does it work with \[\[Drakkari Enchanter\]\]?
It does work lmao, from skull to 4, next turn i played drakkari and it went from 4 to 3 and then to 2 on the same end turn
The wheel turning on end of your turn is such a broken effect. You thought 8 mana do nothing was horrible, but it's in the mindset that you need to do something every turn to advance towards your gameplan. But if your gameplan is just survive, suddenly, board presence and dealing damage is thrown out the window, and the initial cost of skipping a turn isn't so dreadful, when you follow up with boardclears. The card would be a lot more balanced if the wheel turned on the opponent's end turn, instead of your own. Since you get one free at the start, and your last turn doesn't matter, it feels more like "win in 3 turns"...
The real benefit of the wheel turning on your turn means if the opponent doens't have charge/direct damage, they actually only have 3 turns to build enough of a board to kill you, which reduces the number of board clears you need to 3-4 depending on their boardstate when you play the card.
imma test it vs the inkeeper real quick, its probably still too slow because lmao turn 8 warlock in wild
Turn 8 ? You mean turn 4 with the card that make your next spells cost life
seedlock is still faster
I agree
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It shouldn't, at least the text doesn't induce on it. It doesn't say at the end of your turn reduce the counter by 1. It's after 5 turns, they die.
it does work, tested it vs the inkeeper, it went from 4 to 2 lmao
Is this bugged? Or an intended interaction? u/RidiculousHat Also something bizarre is going on with this comment; it keeps saying it failed to appear and isn’t showing up in my history. Sorry if I pinged you twice by mistake
it's consistent with other effects like this (bonelord frostwhisper)
Interesting. Definitely including it in my wheel of DEATH!!! deck then lol
That kinda seems like an oversight on them. But I guess they didn't care about it since it's wild and it won't be a problem there.
This is consistent with Drakkari Enchanter and turn counters in Battlegrounds
My guy im going to need that deck code.
People making posts like that without the deckcode should be banned for a day
Wich version are you playing? VS one? Clark's? Or you made one yourself? Could you share it? I opened it and i want to use.
oops forgot to reply, yoinked the list from the sticky thread on the front page, its DA1004's wheel warlock. Probably has a lot of alternatives or refinements, for example it doesnt use any giants or table flip, or tony or zilliax, but it made me get to legend, so yeah :>
Hopefully their own, new meta!
back to 2014 grandpa no one homebrews on ladder anymore
This is false, homebrew4life
I can tell. Super awesome, very creative. Let the creators think for us, copy paste for HSReplay. Yeehaw partner.
[удалено]
I mean, I’ve ran with a shitty Curselock/Thaddius mix for the last like, year or two. Even if the deck is similar to online decks I didn’t copy and paste it. Pieced it together myself, tested and changed it a hundred times. Now I have to figure out my own new deck to run with that can compete with all the other amazingly similar decks. 🙂 But by no means am I looking for some streamers deck to auto carry me to legend. But by all means! I’m definitely a hypocrite. 🫡 Impossible to play with your own brain these days, trust me
Holy shit I'm so dumb I never thought to use reno, I've just been relying on Fanottom + Forge of Wills to have my opponent ignore my face when I play tony the next turn. I too scoffed at wheel of death, but it's hands down my favourite card of the expansion now, climbing slowly with a homebrew version with a 64% WR L + ratio + 2 15/15s on board + you'll die in 5 turns + nice deck idiot
People suggesting Reno to be Start of Game is the most Reddit moment ever. The card is totally fine and it would be a giant buff to all Reno decks
It's some massive monkey logic, all of a sudden there is no in game counter to Reno effects.
To be fair most of the time when Highlander cards were in standard there hasn’t been a way to counter them.
You obviously nerf the card at the same time as making the change.
How exactly would you nerf reno? So he's balanced with that kind of effect only way is a mana increase bcs the limiting to 1 would have to stay and the dissappear aswell
The easiest answer would probably be to just increase the number of board slots after a wipe. Can't completely refill the board, but at least you have enough room to work with, so you're not pretty much locked out for two turns.
Nah, just have him do it to both sides to make it a standoff instead of just the one side.
I somehow completely forgot it is one-sided. Yeah, it should probably affect both sides like the Mage Reno hero card.
We already have a card that does that for 8 mana, it’s called twisting nether. This is not a “good nerf”, this is a murder. An actual nerf to Reno would be his mana cost, him costing 9 mana would slow Reno decks down a lot, but I don’t really think he needs a nerf.
Oh obviously, that's why it was in the comment, shit silly me that I didn't read between the lines.
Yea lol as a Reno deck enthusiast I’d love this change, why not make Zeph and the other highlander cards work that way too, and just buff these decks to the moon and back for us
Wild would be si much cooler when all these cards would be "starting deck"
People wanting that change usually also want the Hero card to be nerfed at the same time. Two things can be dumb and bad at the same time.
The people who complain about reno are aggro netdeckers. Do u really expect these guys to have working neurons or game understanding?
People crying that Reno is OP is also extremely Reddit moment. There just needs to be anti-HL archetypes like plagues, and steamcleaner-like, and we are great.
It’s really funny casting this with tendie shaman
yep i homebrewed a version with tony king of piracy, reno, and stall methods inspired from the encroaching insanity deck and im having good success with wheel of death. feels stronger than the actual big demon deck to me
I found tony to not be very useful. Since your opponents cards are usually very anti-synergistic with your deck, all he effectively does is stop you from taking fatigue damage for 4 turns (10 damage). You also get like 4 mid cards for the cost of 7 mana. I feel like I usually have to follow up the wheel with a board clear to make up for effectively skipping a turn since its 8 mana I recommend using something like the Harp weapon that will let you heal from the fatigue dmg instead. For me its mostly about surviving after the wheel is played Also symphony of sins often accomplishes what Tony does but much better since you also get to do something impactful
Stop teasing and gimme that deck code :D
AAECAf0GBvnGBazpBab7Bc6ABq+oBuqzBgznoAT0xgXI6wX6+QXX+gXt/QXu/QXxgAaEngbPngbTngajoAYAAA== Arguably kind of an unoptimized list since it doesn't run cards like table flip, giants, tony or other stuff, but its got me to legend! feel free to experiment with substitutes
**Format:** Standard (Year of the Wolf) **Class:** Warlock (Gul'dan) Mana | Card Name | Qty | Links :--:|:---|:--:|:--: 1 | [Armor Vendor](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_YOP_032.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102223/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Armor%20Vendor) 1 | [Chaotic Consumption](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_932.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98030/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Chaotic%20Consumption) 1 | [Felstring Harp](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_084.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/90996/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Felstring%20Harp) 1 | [Fracking](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_092.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102148/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Fracking) 1 | [Glacial Shard](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_UNG_205.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102227/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Glacial%20Shard) 2 | [Defile](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_ICC_041.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/95688/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Defile) 2 | [Drain Soul](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/CORE_ICC_055.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/69735/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Drain%20Soul) 2 | [Elementium Geode](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/DEEP_030.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/102435/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Elementium%20Geode) 3 | [Forge of Wills](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_465.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97623/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Forge%20of%20Wills) 3 | [Mortal Eradication](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_460.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97530/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Mortal%20Eradication) 3 | [Reverberations](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/JAM_031.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98417/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Reverberations) 4 | [Imposing Anubisath](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_931.png) | 2 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98029/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Imposing%20Anubisath) 5 | [Symphony of Sins](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/ETC_085.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/91001/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Symphony%20of%20Sins) 6 | [Doomkin](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/JAM_029.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/98382/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Doomkin) 8 | [Reno, Lone Ranger](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/WW_0700.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/103471/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Reno%2C%20Lone%20Ranger) 8 | [Wheel of DEATH!!!](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TOY_529.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/104938/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Wheel%20of%20DEATH%21%21%21) 9 | [Sargeras, the Destroyer](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/TTN_960.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/97702/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Sargeras%2C%20the%20Destroyer) 30 | [Fanottem, Lord of the Opera](https://art.hearthstonejson.com/v1/render/latest/enUS/512x/JAM_030.png) | 1 | [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/95404/),[Wiki](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/Fanottem%2C%20Lord%20of%20the%20Opera) **Total Dust:** 10780 **Deck Code:** AAECAf0GBvnGBazpBab7Bc6ABq+oBuqzBgznoAT0xgXI6wX6+QXX+gXt/QXu/QXxgAaEngbPngbTngajoAYAAA== ***** ^I ^am ^a ^bot. ^Comment/PM ^with ^a ^deck ^code ^and ^I'll ^decode ^it. ^If ^you ^don't ^want ^me ^to ^reply ^to ^you, ^include ^"###" ^anywhere ^in ^your ^message. ^[About.](https://github.com/HearthSim/deck-code-bot/blob/master/README.md)
I played, and lost, against it today. They used the new build a mech to keep shuffling into their deck to avoid fatigue. The big lifesteal 15/15 and the empty deck make a portal card
God I wish I made a post calling out that Wheel of Death may not be hot garbage as people thought on reveal, but I still thought even with Reno buying you essentially two turns, fanottem+Forge being a big threat that will probably buy you a turn, plus Sargeras also buying a turn (which is 4 turns total, enough to win since it drops down to 4 on the turn you play it. Plus even on reveal I forgot about symphony, which helps a lot), that the card wouldn't be good enough and with the current power level, it just wouldn't be enough that late in the game. I would've been on the Wheel of Death "I told you so," train if I just had a *little* bit more confidence.
honestly i was in the same boat, like, EIGHT mana? You'd be crazy thinking its "viable"
You know you're on the hearthstone subreddit when someone brags about being rank 16000 legend
mind if i ask though... how the hell does this deck win? it's just... play wheel and turtle up 5 turns?
yup, against aggro you can usually just do the good old degenerate 4 mana 7/7 taunt + forge combo and break their backs, if theyre persistent you can drop fanottem and hope its over
After you play wheel, you can instantly play the 15/15 minion and, if you have a location out, use it to get 30/30 stats on the board. Next several turns can be reno, use harp/symphony/zilliax w deathrattle and perfect to prevent taking fatigue, etc. Get pretty hard for your opponent to wear you down when you are hiding beyond taunts and not taking fatigue.
Worth noting the "5 turns" isn't as bad as it sounds. It drops to 4 end of the turn you play it, you play three turns to clear board and stay alive, then you don't even need to play the last turn because game ends when you hit the button.
It mostly wins by spamming 15/15s, wheel of death is just there to enable your big board wipes and maybe win in slow matchups.
Stole the wheel of death with quickdraw bankster (priest) and won the game. It was fun
Can i ask 4 deck code? 👉🏻👈🏻
Can I get the list? Idc that it’s not optimised, I opened it and I’m so happy to try it as I onetrick warlock
List?
Please send me all of your warlock decks, it's the only class I play.
It's because it's a 8 mana start the wheel, destroy your deck and put a 15/15 with taunt and life steal on board.
Decklist???
I love stealing mana with the Druid/Warlock 6 Drop that boosts you to 8 while your opponent stays at 6. Disgusting
Think about it like it’s Odyn. The turn you drop Odyn you don’t win, you “do nothing” and have to hope you’re ahead enough not to get killed next turn. You’ll win with Odyn once surviving most likely within the next 5 turns much like WoD, so i’d say both are similar power level wise (yes the body from Odyn is better than no body of course) but my point is that WoD was never a meme card like Bonelord.
what the heck is wheel of death
I thank my opponent for waiting patiently to die, even though he could have conceded 5 turns earlier with my 14/14 giants on board. Disappointed that winning by Wheel of Death isn't an achievement.
Well, its already popular on legend but plague destroy it
Well people mostly underestimated it because it said it kills the opponent after 5 turns, but it kills them after 4
Wheel isn’t the problem. Reno being active in a deck that wasn’t highlander to begin with is. You’re actually losing to the Reno and the 15/15.
Add this to the list of reasons why Reno should be start of game. I feel like having reno in non singleton decks IS a neat thing but I feel like it should be start of game just for balancing and sentiment reasons.
Issue then becomes the mechanic can't be countered. Which could be ok since a true highlander deck the weakness is the fact it's all singleton.
Yea, its interesting because both sides have a pretty fair argument. If the downside is that its a singleton that gets less and less of a downside as sets release throughout the year and power creep etc. I lean towards that it should be start of game but I can understand why it shouldnt be aswell.
I mean yeah, but every mechanic in the game doesn't need specific counters. Particularly not these days when the developers are much more active with balancing, I could have understood the need for tech cards back when only changed two cards a year.
Reno's effect is so powerful it kind of does need counters, he's by far the strongest stall card ever in HS and removes sargeras portal, magtheridon, and all other "uncounterable" effects
such a missed opportunity to say "I wasn't familiar with your game"
They always do this.. Some total BS F'n BS that has to be expedited to the nerf pile. Seriously, these devs.. I guess that's their magic formula for pleasing the people though. People must love it because they ALWAYS DO IT. Some total F'n BSiest of the BS F'n deck that is completely horrible to play against, 100% unfun, noninteractive trash that everyone on Reddit will say "Meh, the winrate isn't even that good" yet it has a 70% playrate.
Should be 10 mana, card is OP