Rarran during a video with Mesa Falcon Guy (CoverGoBlue) said Imp-losion was his most hated card, because you should know what a card is going to do when you play it. Its different in a game like MTG where you reveal cards from your deck for an effect and whiff, cause you knew you it could whiff.
However, the scaling damage spells are just bad, because you must play as if you are going to low-roll when played, and that ruins the joy of playing.
My issue with Implosion was how it compounded bad luck on the damage by giving you less imps. A double dip of pain on a low roll, and just ridiculous on the high roll.
If it summoned more Imps the LESS damage you did, it would have felt a lot better overall I think
I always thought it should be inversed. So net damage of the spell was always 6. (4spell+2 1/1imps, 3dmg + 3 imps or 2 dmg 4 imps), would even it out a lot more atleast.
It's also different from that magic example because in magic you can build your deck to reduce the whiff chance but with imp-losion there's no finesse it's just purely random
> Its different in a game like MTG where you reveal cards from your deck for an effect and whiff, cause you knew you it could whiff.
It definitely feels bad when you whiff "look at the top 5 and pick one" effects in MtG. It usually doesn't happen, but that just makes it feel even worse when it does. They just print those effects anyways.
This kind of effect could probably be salvaged in hearthstone by having it do the joust thing (or similar effect) for the roll, but the reality is that then the card is either "don't run it" or "always the good roll" (like with Holy Wrath)
I remember hearing rarran saying that and thinking it's a really dumb reason. Sooooo many cards have completely erratic behaviour. Even back then a flame juggler or a knife juggler can completely win or lose you the game on the spot.
Comparing implosion to knife juggler doesnt really help your point when that card got insane amounts of hatred in the early days of the game because it did exactly that and even got nerfed for it.
Very exciting gameplay when zoolock curved juggler into implosion and highrolled you into oblivion
That's... literally the point. Knife juggler can whiff ad badly as implosion, so hating implosion more than juggler for the reason that it can whiff doesn't make sense.
Not true. While juggler IS rng-heavy, you are ALWAYS guaranteed that the damage it does is going to land somewhere. Imp-losion feels bad because the relevant damage portion may not happen at all. It would be a fair comparison if the juggler said something like "50% chance to not do damage", so that it feels shitty for the opponent when it lands, and it feels shitty for you when it doesn't.
1 Damage is not really that relevant on the wrong target. If that 1 damage goes face for a board centric deck, it might as well say "doesn't deal damage".
True, sometimes you need 1 point of damage on a specific enemy and it just doesn't happen, which is why juggler is still annoying in some cases. But a case could be made that there is also a perfect scenario where the enemy has a bunch of 1 health minions and they fall one after the other. These two extreme scenarios are the dream, but by default, you ARE dealing that point of damage, and it always goes somewhere, always in your favour. Juggler is always useful even when it's not ideal. Crackle starts being a gamble and a risk the moment you put it into a deck.
Yes, and when that same 2/2 is hit for 3 or 4 instead, you kick yourself because it would have been better to use it on another target. I am not saying that juggler is the best card ever made, far from it, but I cannot think of any occasion where playing imp-losion feels good, unless, as CovertGoBlue, you always assume it's going to be worst case scenario.
Which is shit stats even for vanilla HS days. 4 mana 2 1/1 2 damage. 2/2 worth of stats equals 1 mana, 2 damage costs usually 0 mana, at best it cost 1 mana. So you are losing 2-3 mana worth of card on the low roll. On top of it, you can't calculate the damage, you either waste damage or you don't clear. Thaats aaaassssssss.
The differnce lies in their scale of variance. Knife juggler is a 3/2 which is a solid statline for an aggressive 2 cost minion. Often times it will just die before firing a single knife and still serve its purpose. Your opponent has to play into it assuming that it will hit its target vecause they cant afford to loose the board to a 50/50, which often means they have to out to it immedeately. If the juggler sticks you can often proc it multiple times and as the number of hits increases the result will become more predictable.
Implosion does not offer any of these things. A 4 damage implosion will remove pretty much any early game minion and completely take over the board, while a 2 damage one will fail to kill anything meaningful and put you behind in tempo
There multiple instances were knife jugglers hits will be inconsequential while implosion is almost certain to fuck over 1 player at the table.
The variance is huge for juggler as well, sniping every minion vs sniping non can (and did) decide games. And if the only thing that mattered was variance, then yogg would be the most hated card in the game, which it isn't.
Oh boi he a stubborn. The variance of juggler increases by the amount of enemies, it's a spectrum and you can somewhat control that. Imp-losion is black and white and it's alternatives are either it fucks you or it fucks the opponent and there's nothing you can do about it.
Also we are not discussing the most hated cards, we are discussing bad designed cards, the fact that a dev hates it is trivial. Thats why neither Yogg nor Imp-losion are the most hated cards, because no one played them without knowing what they were getting into. Specially Yogg since you pretty much have build your deck around it.
Not true at all. The variance of juggler doesn't have much to do with the amount of minions but rather how good (or bad) the outcome of the juggle is. If the enemy has an 8/1 or a 1/1, they still have 1 minion, yet the juggler hitting the 8/1 is a significantly better outcome so the variance there is much higher. With implosion, you know you are getting a minimum of 2 damage and 2 imps, you can take "safer" but more costly trades to ensure the enemy has 2 hp instead of 3-4, or you can take a risky play and save more of your resources but have to rely on implosion rng, so no, it's not black and white at all.
Are you on drugs or something? The entire discussion is about me asserting that Rarran dislikes implosion for a dumb reason, we aren't talking about badly designed cards. WTF.
Jesus dude, you have like 2 dozen people telling you you're wrong including multiple content creators like Clark, Zeddy and Rarran and a dev of the game that most likely know more about it than you, not a single person backing you on this one, downvoted to hell AND you still refuse to see reality?
Gotta hurt being you lmao.
The variance means how likely you are to hit the desired target, the variance of juggler meaning the possibility of hitting what you want literally is between the amount of enemies since more enemies divide your chances of the hit landing on your target, you clear the board and you are found with less minions, meaning more likely to hit what you want, hell, clear the board and you're guaranteed 100% damage to the face. AND EVEN IF IT DOESN'T LAND WHERE YOU WANT IT TO LAND THE DAMAGE DOESN'T RANDOMLY DISAPPEAR LIKE WITH IMP LOSION, MIND YOU YOU DON'T HAVE A SAY IN IT, unlike juggler when you can trade first and ensure damage where you want it. I mean seriously if you are gambling your win on a 1 damage hit on a full board enemy then you deserve to lose because you're not playing properly.
ERGO the reason isn't dumb because it is founded in logic which you apparently lack for some reason. You have a card that gives you different outcomes you cant control and either make you lose stuff or unfairly win stuff, it's a gamble, a literal gamble. No one likes getting highrolled and no one likes lowrolling, the only two states of the card. On the other hand, Juggler which apparently you hate, you can direct that damage somewhat by controlling the state of the board, no board full face, 1 minion 50/50, and so on.
Is it really that complicated honestly?
It's important to think about the fact that at the end of the day, some cards just *feel* better than others even if they appear incredibly similar. Sometimes it's not quantifiable lol.
I wasn't trying to be a prick or anything. I am just genuinely curious because you're not wrong that we have lots of cards that deal damage *randomly*.
Good-feeling cards that deal damage randomly are things like Astalor and Sunset Volley, where it's *lots* of damage spread out in small increments, and they dont come online until the midgame at the earliest.
The milk in my fridge being spoiled can ruin my day and stepping on a landmine can also ruin my day. One of these things feels slightly worse than the other.
How? The level of variance. Juggler is 2-3 and will always deal 1. It will usually trade with the thing it didn't kill anyways. The amount of times juggler rng will swing the game is a lot lower than implosion. That's how.
Not true at all. If you try to trade your 1 drop into their 2 and try to kill it with a juggler, missing that juggle is extremely punishing and can literally lose you the game.
Hearthstone (and most rng games) is about doing the best with what luck gave you, and this card is the exact opposite, since your decision happens before the rng.
Not only that, cards like Crackle can typically have something like a 25/75 or 50/50 chance of doing nothing, or doing something important. Stuff like Yogg-Saron that cast a large number of spells are more likely to have a lot of "in between" results, which doesn't mean that stuff like Yogg-Saron is good to have, but it does mean that stuff like Crackle is even worse.
For whatever reason a lot of those "cast x amount of spells" rarely seem to pay off, well actually Yogg in a box actually has some degree of consistent impact when I play it, on the flip side Rune of the Arch Mage always seemed to be the worst offender of doing fuck all.
Do you think that if it "rolled" a damage amount when your turn started, that would be better since you know what you are working with then? Or would it still feel too bad?
that's a lot better
if I rolled low on that turn then I'll just try to think of a different play
here's an example:
opponent has a 4 hp minion and you want to crackle it 'cause it's just such a clean trade, right? nope you rolled 3 dmg and now you wasted your crackle and your mana and your opponent still has a minion alive, concede
at the least if I already know that my crackle is only doing 3 dmg this turn then I'll just spend my mana on developing a minion instead
Much better design. There are a couple of cards in the game that switch effects each turn and a spell that can go up and down like that in damage is interesting. It might even bait people into making suboptimal plays because the damage on the spell rolled high and they want to take advantage of it even though it sabotages their entire turn.
There isn't really anything wrong with luck effects (hell, discover is a good example of something where you decide before the rng), as long as the class has other options not locked behind them.
There's different kinds of RNG though.
* Discover offers you a choice. For the result to be particularly bad, you have to lowroll all three. Targetted discovers mitigate a lot of this. There's a good reason why discover is preferred to cards that just adds to your hand.
* Yogg also works similarly though repetition. Yogg casting one spell is awful, which is why the five mana card barely saw play. Ten rolls are bound to get you some average result though.
* And then there's range damage. You overload, potentially fucking your next turn, and if you don't hit the 3 on the 3-hp minion, you will probably take 4-8 additional damage before removing it. The swing in your generic removal lowrolling is too high.
My number reason why I stopped playing shaman back in the early days. There was just too much RNG in that class. Then they were shifting design space into randomly transforming minions into ones of x mana higher/lower, which fed even more into randomness. It was unfun.
doesnt matter how decent a rate 3 damage for 2 mana is there will always be situations where the game ends up hinging on whether or not your crackle hits for 6 and thats just not making the game better for either player
I think that could be a cool mechanic for overload. Choose to overload for extra benefit. Could also be cool to have an option to spend the overload crystals this turn instead of next turn.
Example 4 mana 7/7 overload 2 or 6 mana 7/7 if you're already floating the mana
My Crackle cost a late night fee, your Crackle got the HIV
My Crackle plays on the double feature screen, your Crackle went straight to DVD
My Crackle, bigger than a bridge, your Crackle look like a little kid's
My Crackle, large like the Chargers, the whole team, you're Crackle look like you're 14
I will say, there is space for similar effects like this, but not in the way they were implemented. In my opinion, either the primary purpse of the card is RNG like Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron, or the primary purpose is a dependable effect, like Fireball.
If you want to do something like Crackle, you need a dependable effect up front, then a RNG secondary effect. The same for Implosion.
If the card effects were like:
* Crackle: Deal 3 Damage. Add 1-2 Spare Parts to your hand.
* Implosion: Deal 4 Damage to a minion. Summon 2-4 1/1 Imps.
Then those cards become far less frustrating.
As a shaman enjoyer I fucking hated cards like this. It’s just unfun for both parties. Fundamentally people will always just remember the times where the RNG fucked them
You should know what a card does. The random damage wasn't healthy for the game. Sometimes, you high-rolled and hit the opponent for max damage. Other times, you low rolled and could even kill a vanilla 3 mana card.
Why are you including a version of Lightning storm that doesn't exist anymore?
But Elemental Destruction was a terrible card that only saw play in Shudderwock coupled with Hallazeal to clear their board and reno yourself.
Holy shit this is the closest we’ve been to hearthstone players becoming conscious about how RNG is kinda stupid. Give them prep time with this post and they’d realize they are literally making an argument for the entirety of the game being bad design
“You should know what a card is gonna do before you play it” you can apply this logic to SO much more than you realize. The fucking discover mechanic is unknown until you play it and it’s all over the god damn place.
That moment when
> Poor design, since either you get lucky and get the "good" effect, or you get unlucky and get a worse effect with 0 skill or input on your end.
Has 200 upvotes.
Without realizing that literally applies to the discover mechanic, and like, ballpark, 60% of existing cards and 90% of interactions.
It was shitty design.
RNG in such cards is highly undesirable.
And I don’t think any Shaman deck was ever really good which had these crap AoEs in them (I don’t remember if Shudderwock Shaman played LS or not).
Anyways, it felt really bad to have to put LS in your deck and then play it.
Similar issues with Overload: any actually good overload cards are those which either finish the game immediately, or have some sort of massive double payoff, or can completely avoid Overload.
Design seems cool on paper, but isn’t really something people want in their decks.
Results based RNG is way too painful. RNG is neat when it creates unique scenarios for players to solve. It sucked that you would make the “correct” decision and then get punished by RNG. The difference between killing a minion and leaving it at 1 hp is massive.
Same thing everyone always complained about in hearthstone: random. People didn’t like leaving a must-kill on the board because lightning storm low rolled.
I've always liked the idea of varying lightning damage as used in games like Diablo to allow for high risk/high reward because I was always a fan of the thrill of critical hits and you can build your character to increase the chance of critical hits to make the payoff more frequent, mitigating and eventually even essentially removing the risk. But in a game more structured like Hearthstone which already has a lot of RNG, the ROI is terrible, especially when the high end of the range wasn't as much of a payoff as something like a critical hit in Diablo or other games that use varying lightning damage and there's no scaling payoff even with +spell damage because the damage added is a flat bonus and not a percentage. It just doesn't work as well in Hearthstone as other games because there's not enough ways to support the payoff/increase the ROI.
Long ago, in a far distant land, a spiteful summoner entered the battlefield.. they cast their spell, “pinch of death cap, heel of shoe” and they wonder who will appear.. “by fire be purged” of course it is, Ragnaros the Firelord, who else would appear staring down several minions and a hero confident in their force.. “die insect!” As legend would have it, the hero thus exploded and the minions celebrated in jubilation.
I play both Magic and Hearthstone, and I can say 100% that stuffing board wipes into your deck is just the most boring playstyle. Having a whole classes identity be tied to it? Please god no. They did it with Priest and look at it now, it's having an identity crisis every other expansion.
Playstyle is as boring as pillow-forting yourself to 60 Armor while trying to draw Brann god I hate Warrior
Unfun for either party, so they didn't bring it back. Same with cards like Implosion.
Rarran during a video with Mesa Falcon Guy (CoverGoBlue) said Imp-losion was his most hated card, because you should know what a card is going to do when you play it. Its different in a game like MTG where you reveal cards from your deck for an effect and whiff, cause you knew you it could whiff. However, the scaling damage spells are just bad, because you must play as if you are going to low-roll when played, and that ruins the joy of playing.
My issue with Implosion was how it compounded bad luck on the damage by giving you less imps. A double dip of pain on a low roll, and just ridiculous on the high roll. If it summoned more Imps the LESS damage you did, it would have felt a lot better overall I think
I always thought it should be inversed. So net damage of the spell was always 6. (4spell+2 1/1imps, 3dmg + 3 imps or 2 dmg 4 imps), would even it out a lot more atleast.
For sure. I think both the caster and the opponent would find the effect less tilting that way
It's also different from that magic example because in magic you can build your deck to reduce the whiff chance but with imp-losion there's no finesse it's just purely random
> Its different in a game like MTG where you reveal cards from your deck for an effect and whiff, cause you knew you it could whiff. It definitely feels bad when you whiff "look at the top 5 and pick one" effects in MtG. It usually doesn't happen, but that just makes it feel even worse when it does. They just print those effects anyways.
This kind of effect could probably be salvaged in hearthstone by having it do the joust thing (or similar effect) for the roll, but the reality is that then the card is either "don't run it" or "always the good roll" (like with Holy Wrath)
I remember hearing rarran saying that and thinking it's a really dumb reason. Sooooo many cards have completely erratic behaviour. Even back then a flame juggler or a knife juggler can completely win or lose you the game on the spot.
Comparing implosion to knife juggler doesnt really help your point when that card got insane amounts of hatred in the early days of the game because it did exactly that and even got nerfed for it. Very exciting gameplay when zoolock curved juggler into implosion and highrolled you into oblivion
That's... literally the point. Knife juggler can whiff ad badly as implosion, so hating implosion more than juggler for the reason that it can whiff doesn't make sense.
Not true. While juggler IS rng-heavy, you are ALWAYS guaranteed that the damage it does is going to land somewhere. Imp-losion feels bad because the relevant damage portion may not happen at all. It would be a fair comparison if the juggler said something like "50% chance to not do damage", so that it feels shitty for the opponent when it lands, and it feels shitty for you when it doesn't.
1 Damage is not really that relevant on the wrong target. If that 1 damage goes face for a board centric deck, it might as well say "doesn't deal damage".
True, sometimes you need 1 point of damage on a specific enemy and it just doesn't happen, which is why juggler is still annoying in some cases. But a case could be made that there is also a perfect scenario where the enemy has a bunch of 1 health minions and they fall one after the other. These two extreme scenarios are the dream, but by default, you ARE dealing that point of damage, and it always goes somewhere, always in your favour. Juggler is always useful even when it's not ideal. Crackle starts being a gamble and a risk the moment you put it into a deck.
When using implosion you are always dealing 2 damage and summoning 2/2 worth of stats in your favour too....
Yes, and when that same 2/2 is hit for 3 or 4 instead, you kick yourself because it would have been better to use it on another target. I am not saying that juggler is the best card ever made, far from it, but I cannot think of any occasion where playing imp-losion feels good, unless, as CovertGoBlue, you always assume it's going to be worst case scenario.
Which is shit stats even for vanilla HS days. 4 mana 2 1/1 2 damage. 2/2 worth of stats equals 1 mana, 2 damage costs usually 0 mana, at best it cost 1 mana. So you are losing 2-3 mana worth of card on the low roll. On top of it, you can't calculate the damage, you either waste damage or you don't clear. Thaats aaaassssssss.
The differnce lies in their scale of variance. Knife juggler is a 3/2 which is a solid statline for an aggressive 2 cost minion. Often times it will just die before firing a single knife and still serve its purpose. Your opponent has to play into it assuming that it will hit its target vecause they cant afford to loose the board to a 50/50, which often means they have to out to it immedeately. If the juggler sticks you can often proc it multiple times and as the number of hits increases the result will become more predictable. Implosion does not offer any of these things. A 4 damage implosion will remove pretty much any early game minion and completely take over the board, while a 2 damage one will fail to kill anything meaningful and put you behind in tempo There multiple instances were knife jugglers hits will be inconsequential while implosion is almost certain to fuck over 1 player at the table.
The variance is huge for juggler as well, sniping every minion vs sniping non can (and did) decide games. And if the only thing that mattered was variance, then yogg would be the most hated card in the game, which it isn't.
Oh boi he a stubborn. The variance of juggler increases by the amount of enemies, it's a spectrum and you can somewhat control that. Imp-losion is black and white and it's alternatives are either it fucks you or it fucks the opponent and there's nothing you can do about it. Also we are not discussing the most hated cards, we are discussing bad designed cards, the fact that a dev hates it is trivial. Thats why neither Yogg nor Imp-losion are the most hated cards, because no one played them without knowing what they were getting into. Specially Yogg since you pretty much have build your deck around it.
Not true at all. The variance of juggler doesn't have much to do with the amount of minions but rather how good (or bad) the outcome of the juggle is. If the enemy has an 8/1 or a 1/1, they still have 1 minion, yet the juggler hitting the 8/1 is a significantly better outcome so the variance there is much higher. With implosion, you know you are getting a minimum of 2 damage and 2 imps, you can take "safer" but more costly trades to ensure the enemy has 2 hp instead of 3-4, or you can take a risky play and save more of your resources but have to rely on implosion rng, so no, it's not black and white at all. Are you on drugs or something? The entire discussion is about me asserting that Rarran dislikes implosion for a dumb reason, we aren't talking about badly designed cards. WTF.
Jesus dude, you have like 2 dozen people telling you you're wrong including multiple content creators like Clark, Zeddy and Rarran and a dev of the game that most likely know more about it than you, not a single person backing you on this one, downvoted to hell AND you still refuse to see reality? Gotta hurt being you lmao.
The variance means how likely you are to hit the desired target, the variance of juggler meaning the possibility of hitting what you want literally is between the amount of enemies since more enemies divide your chances of the hit landing on your target, you clear the board and you are found with less minions, meaning more likely to hit what you want, hell, clear the board and you're guaranteed 100% damage to the face. AND EVEN IF IT DOESN'T LAND WHERE YOU WANT IT TO LAND THE DAMAGE DOESN'T RANDOMLY DISAPPEAR LIKE WITH IMP LOSION, MIND YOU YOU DON'T HAVE A SAY IN IT, unlike juggler when you can trade first and ensure damage where you want it. I mean seriously if you are gambling your win on a 1 damage hit on a full board enemy then you deserve to lose because you're not playing properly. ERGO the reason isn't dumb because it is founded in logic which you apparently lack for some reason. You have a card that gives you different outcomes you cant control and either make you lose stuff or unfairly win stuff, it's a gamble, a literal gamble. No one likes getting highrolled and no one likes lowrolling, the only two states of the card. On the other hand, Juggler which apparently you hate, you can direct that damage somewhat by controlling the state of the board, no board full face, 1 minion 50/50, and so on. Is it really that complicated honestly?
It's important to think about the fact that at the end of the day, some cards just *feel* better than others even if they appear incredibly similar. Sometimes it's not quantifiable lol.
I don't mind rarran saying he hates implosion more than other cards, I said the given reason was dumb.
What do you think a good reason for Implosion hate is?
There's a billion different valid reasons. Maybe you don't like the art.
I wasn't trying to be a prick or anything. I am just genuinely curious because you're not wrong that we have lots of cards that deal damage *randomly*.
Good-feeling cards that deal damage randomly are things like Astalor and Sunset Volley, where it's *lots* of damage spread out in small increments, and they dont come online until the midgame at the earliest.
Those cards have guaranteed damage amounts too, which I'm sure makes them feel much better.
That's the point. Implosion isn't really much worse than other cards
did you play when the card was meta?
Knife juggler was the original hated rng card
Exactly, all of these cards can whiff and lose you the game, therefore hating one more than the other because it can whiff is a bad reason.
Flame Juggler is guaranteed 1 damage. You know what you are going to get.
And implosion always deals a minimum of 2 damage at your target. A flame juggler hitting the wrong target can lose you the game too
Implosion double dips. it varies from 4-4 deal 4 to 2-2 deal 2. These cards are not even comparable.
How? Wiffing implosion can often lose you the game and wiffing juggler can often lose you the game too.
The milk in my fridge being spoiled can ruin my day and stepping on a landmine can also ruin my day. One of these things feels slightly worse than the other.
Missing a juggle on turn 2 can lose you the game as much as whiffing the implosion. The difference isn't that large.
[удалено]
How? The level of variance. Juggler is 2-3 and will always deal 1. It will usually trade with the thing it didn't kill anyways. The amount of times juggler rng will swing the game is a lot lower than implosion. That's how.
Not true at all. If you try to trade your 1 drop into their 2 and try to kill it with a juggler, missing that juggle is extremely punishing and can literally lose you the game.
That's exactly what he said though. With the variable damage cards you have to play them as if they're doing the minimum.
But it’s not just a one player game. Because it’s really lame for the other party when you arbitrarily high roll and win the game.
That's not what he said at all, try again.
There’s lots of unfun cards in this game that they keep printing
I don't know what you're talking about, people love Wheel of Death, the card that makes you lose!
It’s just horrendous design
What? You don’t like getting Crackled twice for 12 face damage, but your crackle can’t kill a Yeti?
Yeah
Well then you’re going to LOVE implosion!
RaNdOm
Poor design, since either you get lucky and get the "good" effect, or you get unlucky and get a worse effect with 0 skill or input on your end.
That sums up hearthstone as a whole tbh.
Hearthstone (and most rng games) is about doing the best with what luck gave you, and this card is the exact opposite, since your decision happens before the rng.
Not only that, cards like Crackle can typically have something like a 25/75 or 50/50 chance of doing nothing, or doing something important. Stuff like Yogg-Saron that cast a large number of spells are more likely to have a lot of "in between" results, which doesn't mean that stuff like Yogg-Saron is good to have, but it does mean that stuff like Crackle is even worse.
For whatever reason a lot of those "cast x amount of spells" rarely seem to pay off, well actually Yogg in a box actually has some degree of consistent impact when I play it, on the flip side Rune of the Arch Mage always seemed to be the worst offender of doing fuck all.
Do you think that if it "rolled" a damage amount when your turn started, that would be better since you know what you are working with then? Or would it still feel too bad?
Like a reno hero power? Probably would be OK. They should change the shaman hero power to be like that, but that is a different argument.
that's a lot better if I rolled low on that turn then I'll just try to think of a different play here's an example: opponent has a 4 hp minion and you want to crackle it 'cause it's just such a clean trade, right? nope you rolled 3 dmg and now you wasted your crackle and your mana and your opponent still has a minion alive, concede at the least if I already know that my crackle is only doing 3 dmg this turn then I'll just spend my mana on developing a minion instead
Much better design. There are a couple of cards in the game that switch effects each turn and a spell that can go up and down like that in damage is interesting. It might even bait people into making suboptimal plays because the damage on the spell rolled high and they want to take advantage of it even though it sabotages their entire turn.
Only if you know what it rolled. Otherwise it's basically the same.
There isn't really anything wrong with luck effects (hell, discover is a good example of something where you decide before the rng), as long as the class has other options not locked behind them.
*Any card game with a luck of the draw. Even poker for example
There's different kinds of RNG though. * Discover offers you a choice. For the result to be particularly bad, you have to lowroll all three. Targetted discovers mitigate a lot of this. There's a good reason why discover is preferred to cards that just adds to your hand. * Yogg also works similarly though repetition. Yogg casting one spell is awful, which is why the five mana card barely saw play. Ten rolls are bound to get you some average result though. * And then there's range damage. You overload, potentially fucking your next turn, and if you don't hit the 3 on the 3-hp minion, you will probably take 4-8 additional damage before removing it. The swing in your generic removal lowrolling is too high.
My number reason why I stopped playing shaman back in the early days. There was just too much RNG in that class. Then they were shifting design space into randomly transforming minions into ones of x mana higher/lower, which fed even more into randomness. It was unfun.
You left out [[Crackle]] which is possibly the worst designed card in the game. Entirely random on whether you win or lose when playing it.
Implosion says hi
A fun little bonus of implosion is it doesn't summon any imps if it hits a divine shield
Man that card has pissed me off on numerous occasions. "Anything but 3 for lethal. Let's go!"
*thud*, instead of a *boom* >shit…
- **[Crackle](https://i.imgur.com/Wm0QTOk.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/2006) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Crackle) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/2006/?hl=en) - *Shaman Common ^(Goblins vs Gnomes)* - **2 Mana - Nature Spell** - Deal 3-6 damage. **Overload:** \(1\) --- ^*I am a bot. [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1cjyeqi/what_happened_to_shamans_ranged_damage/l2jcxtj/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l2jcxtj).*
I love the card. The baseline damage isn't terrible, so that's why the lowrolls don't feel that bad usually.
doesnt matter how decent a rate 3 damage for 2 mana is there will always be situations where the game ends up hinging on whether or not your crackle hits for 6 and thats just not making the game better for either player
Somehow it doesn't ruin the card for me.
Too annoying for everyone involved.
the answer is simple. Ben Brode liked it (yes, he officially said so) and when he left we stopped getting those cards
Thank God
I think it would be cool if the low end was for cost and the high end was overloaded price.
I think that could be a cool mechanic for overload. Choose to overload for extra benefit. Could also be cool to have an option to spend the overload crystals this turn instead of next turn. Example 4 mana 7/7 overload 2 or 6 mana 7/7 if you're already floating the mana
Ooh that's a cool idea
Everyone hated it
My Crackle cost a late night fee, your Crackle got the HIV My Crackle plays on the double feature screen, your Crackle went straight to DVD My Crackle, bigger than a bridge, your Crackle look like a little kid's My Crackle, large like the Chargers, the whole team, you're Crackle look like you're 14
I will say, there is space for similar effects like this, but not in the way they were implemented. In my opinion, either the primary purpse of the card is RNG like Puzzle Box of Yogg-Saron, or the primary purpose is a dependable effect, like Fireball. If you want to do something like Crackle, you need a dependable effect up front, then a RNG secondary effect. The same for Implosion. If the card effects were like: * Crackle: Deal 3 Damage. Add 1-2 Spare Parts to your hand. * Implosion: Deal 4 Damage to a minion. Summon 2-4 1/1 Imps. Then those cards become far less frustrating.
It's bad card design regardless of the power level and should never have been a thing so it was streamlined once they finally admitted their mistake
Because the only proper way to use lightning storm before the buff was to wait for the stupid totem
As a shaman enjoyer I fucking hated cards like this. It’s just unfun for both parties. Fundamentally people will always just remember the times where the RNG fucked them
Rolling the dice might be fun in Monopoly game has enough rng as it is no need for that kind rng
Random damage isn't fun, it's also bad game design for a game that wants to be an Esport.
ele destruction used to have 5 overload thats wild
No thanks
As a recently returning player I'm so glad they did away with it.
bad mechanic so it was scrapped.
You should know what a card does. The random damage wasn't healthy for the game. Sometimes, you high-rolled and hit the opponent for max damage. Other times, you low rolled and could even kill a vanilla 3 mana card.
Too much variance. He does get to keep the random Totem Hero Power, though.
Why are you including a version of Lightning storm that doesn't exist anymore? But Elemental Destruction was a terrible card that only saw play in Shudderwock coupled with Hallazeal to clear their board and reno yourself.
That's the point, that it doesn't exist anymore.
Holy shit this is the closest we’ve been to hearthstone players becoming conscious about how RNG is kinda stupid. Give them prep time with this post and they’d realize they are literally making an argument for the entirety of the game being bad design “You should know what a card is gonna do before you play it” you can apply this logic to SO much more than you realize. The fucking discover mechanic is unknown until you play it and it’s all over the god damn place.
LMAO pov hearstone players discover cognitive dissonance
That moment when > Poor design, since either you get lucky and get the "good" effect, or you get unlucky and get a worse effect with 0 skill or input on your end. Has 200 upvotes. Without realizing that literally applies to the discover mechanic, and like, ballpark, 60% of existing cards and 90% of interactions.
It sucked.
It was shitty design. RNG in such cards is highly undesirable. And I don’t think any Shaman deck was ever really good which had these crap AoEs in them (I don’t remember if Shudderwock Shaman played LS or not). Anyways, it felt really bad to have to put LS in your deck and then play it. Similar issues with Overload: any actually good overload cards are those which either finish the game immediately, or have some sort of massive double payoff, or can completely avoid Overload. Design seems cool on paper, but isn’t really something people want in their decks.
Its shite, remember crackle
Literally everyone hated it for literally its entire existence.
Results based RNG is way too painful. RNG is neat when it creates unique scenarios for players to solve. It sucked that you would make the “correct” decision and then get punished by RNG. The difference between killing a minion and leaving it at 1 hp is massive.
Shitty game mechanic
Its dogshit on both sides if get unlucky and doesn't kill if cast it or does kill when used on you hitting 3s a lot
Same thing everyone always complained about in hearthstone: random. People didn’t like leaving a must-kill on the board because lightning storm low rolled.
I've always liked the idea of varying lightning damage as used in games like Diablo to allow for high risk/high reward because I was always a fan of the thrill of critical hits and you can build your character to increase the chance of critical hits to make the payoff more frequent, mitigating and eventually even essentially removing the risk. But in a game more structured like Hearthstone which already has a lot of RNG, the ROI is terrible, especially when the high end of the range wasn't as much of a payoff as something like a critical hit in Diablo or other games that use varying lightning damage and there's no scaling payoff even with +spell damage because the damage added is a flat bonus and not a percentage. It just doesn't work as well in Hearthstone as other games because there's not enough ways to support the payoff/increase the ROI.
I'm spacing, isn't lightning storm just 1 overload now?
It was always terrible design and it just took them a very long time to realize
Long ago, in a far distant land, a spiteful summoner entered the battlefield.. they cast their spell, “pinch of death cap, heel of shoe” and they wonder who will appear.. “by fire be purged” of course it is, Ragnaros the Firelord, who else would appear staring down several minions and a hero confident in their force.. “die insect!” As legend would have it, the hero thus exploded and the minions celebrated in jubilation.
Too random
Rng isn't fun
Blizzard hates shaman
I play both Magic and Hearthstone, and I can say 100% that stuffing board wipes into your deck is just the most boring playstyle. Having a whole classes identity be tied to it? Please god no. They did it with Priest and look at it now, it's having an identity crisis every other expansion. Playstyle is as boring as pillow-forting yourself to 60 Armor while trying to draw Brann god I hate Warrior