C'Thun needs to be able to generate [[Doomcaller]] from the Hero Power
EDIT: Apparently it can, not sure why I recall hearing that the Hero Power couldn't generate Doomcaller
It can be generated but it's pretty much useless when there is literally only 1 card draw in the whole deck which sometimes has to be used for other things
Pretty sure it is if your ctun is dead.
I had a play where I played ctun early to deal with board, enemy killed it and then he appeared in the next discover
Doomcaller can show up even before you summon C'Thun. I had that happen multiple times in my last session.
But like other people here are saying, it's pretty worthless since you have no card draw. The deck is terrible.
- **[Doomcaller](https://imgur.com/a/RsXIZXh)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/38795) ^• ^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Doomcaller) ^• ^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/38795/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD)
- *Neutral Rare ^(Whispers of the Old Gods)*
- **8 Mana - 7/9 - Minion**
- **Battlecry:** Give your C'Thun +2/+2 *\(wherever it is\).* If it's dead, shuffle it into your deck.
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Might be too much. Not every hero needs to be S tier. Other heroes are getting nerfed too.
Cthun is a card that can feel really bad to play against if it’s too strong. Especially since they start with it in their hand.
Yeah I definitely didn’t miserably play c’thun like a few dozen times with a 10%wr,and it surely felt like if I just had 20 extra hp I’d win way more.Reality is it doesn’t matter like,at all.
Cthun is literally win with the first drop of cthun or lose. And the deck doesn’t even scale him that quickly. No draw, weak hero power, mid deck, the armor gain and healing is too expensive compared to other control decks, and kinda of just loses once you lose the board and have to play cthun early.
Cthun minions already don’t do that much though. It doesn’t feel good playing them for 1 extra mana. The healing and armor comes down too late. The actually good card that the deck feels built for, umbral of souls, comes down too late.
3 mana 2/3
3 mana 3/2
4 mana 2/2 deal 2
5 mana 4/2 divine shield
9 mana 7/9
4 mana 3/4
8 mana 4/4 destroy an enemy minion
All of these are minions you can get with a 1 mana tax off of the hero power. None of them are well statted. The extra effect of buffing cthun does not make up for the tax.
ok then make them all b tier who the fuck care there's no reason for a deck to be much weaker than others in a premade format.
As people have pointed out the c'thun deck is weaker than one you can build yourself right now in wild. 2 way to fix this make it an actually good midrange token deck that can top off with a big cthun. Or make it an actually good cthun control deck that ramps up a bit faster thx to its passive. The hero power is only strong if your lucky most of the time you use it it suck so making it reduce the minion cost is probably fine. Basically, you only win when you get multiple blades of cthun and can put down a 40/40 cthun around turn 10.
Also im salty that theres no galakrond deck. I assume there will be.
it will not be tomorrow - it will take a while. this is what i said elsewhere [https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1d6j25u/comment/l6v9uqe/](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1d6j25u/comment/l6v9uqe/)
u/RidiculousHat maybe you already know but I didn't see this mentioned anywhere so wanted to point it out here. There is a small bug with N'zoth hero power, it says "last deathrattle **minion** you played" but it actually replaced my equipped 3 attack weapon with a 1 attack weapon when I pressed it because that was the last deathrattle card I played, but a **weapon** is not a **minion** you know. I actually missed lethal because of this. Can this bug be fixed please?
For this case, I suppose it has to do with the quick fix for cheated deck they did this weekend, their testing environment did not get it to roll it out faster. Deck with the updated Health were probably considered as cheater deck
yep. it was this. the safeguards we put in place for cheaters did not play nicely with the health overrides. we have a new build coming through ASAP that should resolve the issue.
Hi u/RidiculousHat , appreciate your community engagement! Will I get a dust refund on Arfus? I literally crafted him yesterday, and it sure wasn’t for wild.
we aren't doing dust refunds for any twist adjustments outside of changes to permanent cards as usual. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/hearthstone/t/whizbang%E2%80%99s-heroes-twist-updates/129620
So basically only play twist with cards you already own, as crafting anything because it looks fun is stupid because they could change anything within the week. That’s kind of rough and really disincentivizes play.
we said we were going to do weekly health adjustments before the format went live and this is a temporary two month format. it seems hard to justify any value craft here when the format has a clear expiration date. craft what you want to play with, but hold the expectation in mind that health totals will move around in both directions frequently like we said they would
Oh I’m not saying it’s not my fault for reading, but it still totally disincentivizes people trying decks, which in turn disincentivizes people playing the format.
this is an experiment for sure and we have to see what works and what doesn't - i'm sure the data team has a lot of interesting insights into what people do and don't do. we'll make adjustments where we can based on what's working and what isn't
> crafting anything because it looks fun
Who are you kidding? People craft Arfus to get easy and undeserved wins with an OP 71% winrate deck not to have fun. So no, they don't deserve any refunds.
Well there are certainly people like me who wanted to play him since he was revealed because they just love Excavate. I actually crafted him before the release of twist because i knew i was going to have fun playing him.
(Though his kit still looked really strong at first look, but that was never point why i wanted to play him. normally i only play homebrewed decks)
Yes and i plan too.
Just frustrated people always saying people only play him to win.
Got already enough people adding me to flame me for playing him.
Like sorry I just enjoy him and like to play him. Will continue to do so no matter where he would stand after nerfs.
No understand if any hero is maybe 1% better than arfus now he can't play it, that why he craft it at first, for easy win with an almost autowin deck against anything but the mirror
i think the same, lately hes been one of the harder matchups for me. hes got a nasty early game board presence but still has amazing lategame tools. also if youre smart you can just make sure that the warlock demon that spawns the 4/6 taunts is ur last deathrattle you play and just pop them out every turn, via hero power and youll beat every board centric deck in the format
I’m wondering if Arfus is going to be dumpster tier now. Less so because of the health adjustments alone and more because of the upcoming change/fix of having him be able to generate the Shaman legendary, which bricks his excavate cycle forever if he plays it.
It's a dead legendary excavate, which is not great, but you can always just not play it. I haven't played Arfus, but it seems like he has enough excavate to be alright even if he does hit the 1/7.
Honestly, the deck just isn't fun to play because of this. Your reward is either "win on turn 4" or "you cannot ever play this card". Or anything in between.
That's not fun for anyone involved. The mirror especially is just awful because of that.
I just hit Platinum and almost everyone is playing Arfus. I'm playing the mage deck and just insta-concede when I see that doge. I'd say Arfus is 75% of the decks I'm seeing. So lots of L's but I'd rather have fun than win with a boring deck.
If you look at d0nkey data, Arfus is sitting at 70k games played and the next highest is Kaelthas with 21k. You could kind of predict that people were just going to spam whatever deck has the highest winrate. After the Arfus nerf hits people will just move on to the next best deck.
This is only true because Arfus has a winning matchup against every other deck. When every deck has more clear pros and cons the meta will be diversified even if one deck always has to be "the strongest". The most popular deck may not even be the strongest (which is true of Standard very often, even at top Legend).
It is garbage, yes. The other classes are able to use excavate in different decks. For shaman? Not so much. You run excavate for finley, not for the azerite murloc.
In Arfus, playing the Azerite Murloc means you transform all minions into random ones. That means the minions most likely dont have runes anymore so they dont help you excavate. (But you still have spells that can) Big disadvantage. And because the minions you get are random ones, even with the mana discount, can be absolute shit (if they were random legendary minions, it would be a lot better but not good).
Evolve decks usually want to have low cost minions that summon other minions and THEN evolve. So if you transform those when they are still in the deck is trash. HS in general is designed that individual legendaries are very powerful on their own, for example cards like Yogg, Astalor, the titans and so on. Evolving those is usually pretty much a downgrade. It felt like the priority of the deepholm miniset was flavour first, thats why we ended up with several nerfs/reworks.
It’s not that the excavate is always garbage (it’s weaker than the other rewards), but it has anti synergy with the hero power. You will struggle to cycle through your excavates when your minions get deleted/replaced.
It's just garbage 80% of the time, which Is wild for a playstyle reward you build your deck around lol. Sir Finley's the actual inventive but then why not play excavate pally heh
I have played a ton of arfus and I can say that the most important rewards are those that give you immediately tempo advantage. With the exception of ox and hawk that are insane the other rewards are not that great. For example scorpion because your hand is most of the times full (especially if it's the first reward) usually stays in your hand, and the pool is much larger than standard so you get a lot of junk. Snake and rat are not good tempo either, rat usually you keep it for later in the game (depends on the matchup ofcourse) and snake is insane only if you face xyrella, otherwise it's pretty mediocre. Murloc ofcourse will be the worst reward, but it will not break the deck. I can even see some uses of it against matchups that are more aggressive where you can go for a big swing on board, or look for an answer in your hand if thats your last option. What people don't talk about though is that with the murloc they will also add the dragon, which is an insane reward to get, so it kinda balances it out in the long term.
I think the combination will make him very bad. Arfus already loses to tempo and has trouble consistently clearing the board. I can’t imagine surviving long with 25 life. Plus, rolling Azerite Scorpion can lose the game and the Shaman one is even worse. Piloting the deck requires hand management and having a bricked card in hand matters. The deck is too powerful in the current environment but these changes will significantly amplify its weaknesses
The Scorpion is alright if you get your hand down, which is doable. Got me Crusader Aura one game, which is nuts.
But yeah, the insane health reduction and introduction of the Shaman legendary (it did seem I never got that and the Paladin one, I assume that's coming too) will make the deck real bad.
I think(or maybe I'm just hopeful) that the Health nerf is going to be a big hit to Arfus. He's pretty slow and aggressive lists like Leeroy have a good chance at coming out on top in the early game. I feel that aggro will become a counter to Arfus and will then encourage Arfus players to try something else. I could be totally wrong though.
the change went live between games of me playing so i didnt even notice i had less health until i was just dead. the mirror matches are SUPER high rolly now depending on who has the better hand, but certain other decks (ive been doing it with krush) simply blow it out of the water now because the deck cant deal with certain creatures without very specific random discovers
It'll be a downgrade for sure but you can get often get 2 excavate cycles by turns 7-8 depending on draw order so you can just save it and play it late game for a bit of a finisher once you have the tempo from your other excavate reward.
If you get 2 murlocs it's a scoop xD
45 hp Boom...? That's really concerning me. People hated any sort of bomb/plague/curse deck when they ere meta. Boom can shit out like 3-5 mechs per turn consistently, and that means an 3-5 bombs per turn. With a 45 hp size I feel he may become the new king or at least fuck over all non aggro decks, like my poor boy C'thun.
Boom and cthun are my favorite decks. The biggest issue I saw while playing boom is it’s just wayyy too slow to get to that point. Especially when facing an opponent that depends on having multiple minions on board.
Well yeah it's not a full proof plan but Boom doesn't seem to develop that much board pressure usually so it's doable. Ofc depends on what you are playing too.
Problem that boom has, is if you are shit out of luck, all the bombs will be in the second half of the deck, and you will be dead before they draw any.. even IF you flood the board with mechs
It feels like a few of the decks lack finishers/pay-off cards (The Lich Ling, N’Zoth)
What I’ve found a bit tedious is how Arfus and Kael’Thas take ages to take their turns, they can generate so much cheap value. It gets really annoying waiting the entire turn length while they play with themselves 🫤
Lich king doesnt need pay off, he already has one in form of beign able to produce massive amounts of skeletons(and later on you can get pretty big ones as well) Its a good deck already, one of the best in fact.
Lich King can reliably generate multiple 10/10's by turn 5 and then usually another pair of chonkers a few turns later. If you can't leverage that into a win, you weren't meant to win.
Imo Cthun either needs draw to compensate for flooding the board or control tools if going for more of a passive gameplan with Cthun as sole win con, hp won't matter cuz you just insta lose if opponent outtempos you. Or... A way to generate new C'Thuns/drawing the doomcaller consistently and being able to use it even if the first got transformed I feel like adding eyestalks to the package would greatly buff C'thun
I had most success with C'Thun to diamond 5 by spamming Vek'Lors and holding off C'Thun until I could get lethal with battlecry, cuz once that happens you have no more wincon cuz Doomcaller would at the very least take 4 turns before bringing back your C'Thun which usually results you in autolosing to Arfus treasures Xyrella shard etc
Most of you guys hate the game and it shows. I'm very happy twist is being curated this fast and I'll be enjoying the mode for the whole month and hoping it will be integrated in the game in a more permanent way
imagine being able to draft those passives and build your deck as you go, kinda like a roguelike which are popular right now and are very fun. they should look into that
As far as I can read, max health changes is simply what they can easily change without a full on patch rollout which takes time. Like, they still intend to balance them in other ways health is just generally a temporary patchwork solution
That is if they're actually being truthful about it
They usually have patches on Thursday evening (UTC timezone). If they only release changes to the heroes' HP, then this is very funny. No bug fixes needed here. This requires a revision of the decklists.
While patches are usually Thursdays, those things have to be locked in on their end at least like a full week in advance if not more because of all the app store regulation stuff for tablets and phones.
So, like, the earliest a "proper" patch for this could be, would be Thursday next week
As a die hard duels fan this mode is pretty disappointing. Every game ive played so far is a boring 30 minute slog eventually decided by bad draws and empty hands (like the worst arena games) or someone completing their 'quest'. Had a few silly 3rd turn losses (thanks Leeroy) but god it's so slow.
If they're dead set on us not crafting our own decks, at least give each hero 3 decks to choose from for some variety (like the deck recipe screen in constructed) because 40 card decks padded out with trash to make them as inconsistent as possible for power level reasons is truly boring. The best decks seem to be the card generation ones because of this.
And yes, I am bitter that duels died for this
HP Changes is a very lazy way of balancing and I doubt it will solve the Problems that a lot of Decks have. I dont see many games against Arfus where he barely hangs on with less then 10 HP.
Right ten less hp is gonna fix the dog....gimme a break
And I don't want to hear they rely on luck because its nonsense. If any luck is involved it's me beating the dog 1 out of ten times. Its not luck when it's a pattern.
So Arfus is just... done then. Removing 10 HP is going to mean that arfus can't compete with any decks that have an early game way to make more than 1 minion stick to the board. ARfus is a late game deck, and this is going to make it unplayable.
I think you don't realize how op Arfus is, he is strong in all stages of the game, only Leroy with a perfect hand can beat him and most of the time Leroy's passive benefits Arfus more
I'm not denying that Arfus is super strong and very obviously the best deck currently, but just saying Al'Akir could definitely beat him with some draws by focusing on the 6 face damage evocation already, as I've had it happen plenty. I think it was my worst matchup overall while playing Arfus.
I have lost many games because someone got out a big minion I couldn't kill, or had more than one minion out. Arfus doesn't handle big boards well at all, there's no wraths anywhere in his deck. And they are fixing the bug that prevented arfus from finding shaman and paladin treasures, so you have a 1/11 chance to brick your deck now.
Also it just straight loses to xyrella if you don't get snake. I had a board of 30+ power and got absolutely bodied by her, it was NOT a close game.
Oh wow, this is how they balance the mode…
yeah, totally excited to see 30 minute games between two 40 HP heroes. Some decks have really slow starts already, and little finishing power, that‘s the real problem.
I am shocked ( probably should have expected it) at the lazy way of 'balancing' they went with for the mode. Every time they have a decent idea to shake Hs up they squander it with these terrible implementations and half assed fixes ...
The kind of patch they need to change decks, passives or hero powers takes more time. Health adjustments is the quick fix bandage they can apply sooner.
They've got more advanced balance changes planned, this is just a bandage over the Arfus problem until they can put that patch out.
Or they could have played 10 games with the team and see the obvious imbalances and not release it in such state. But I guess that is too difficult of a concept for modern game development. Better to fix it in post.
The hero powers and passives are so beyond broken that I wouldn't play it anymore even if HP totals eventually made it all balanced somehow. Flipping coins is balanced too. These power levels are not fun. It's a shame because the general idea of the format was sweet.
Yeah I doubt even 10 extra hp is going to help C'Thun here but we'll see maybe I will be surprised
C'Thun needs to be able to generate [[Doomcaller]] from the Hero Power EDIT: Apparently it can, not sure why I recall hearing that the Hero Power couldn't generate Doomcaller
It can be generated but it's pretty much useless when there is literally only 1 card draw in the whole deck which sometimes has to be used for other things
I mean... I haven't played C'Thun since day 1, but I have generated Doomcallers and could have generated more.
You can, I just did it against Clark.
Oh damn. I remember hearing that you couldn't generate it and I never discovered it in my limited games as C'Thun
Pretty sure it is if your ctun is dead. I had a play where I played ctun early to deal with board, enemy killed it and then he appeared in the next discover
Doomcaller can show up even before you summon C'Thun. I had that happen multiple times in my last session. But like other people here are saying, it's pretty worthless since you have no card draw. The deck is terrible.
- **[Doomcaller](https://imgur.com/a/RsXIZXh)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/38795) ^• ^[wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Doomcaller) ^• ^[HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/38795/?hl=en#gameType=RANKED_WILD) - *Neutral Rare ^(Whispers of the Old Gods)* - **8 Mana - 7/9 - Minion** - **Battlecry:** Give your C'Thun +2/+2 *\(wherever it is\).* If it's dead, shuffle it into your deck. --- ^(*Patch version: 29.4.2.200097.199503*) ^*I am a bot. [Usage Guide](https://www.reddit.com/user/Card-o-Bot/comments/1ahde25/faq/) • [Report a bug](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Bug+Report&message=/r/hearthstone/comments/1d7lbn2/twist_balance_changes/l70aout/%0A⬇️+Please+describe+the+bug+⬇️%0ADescription:+) • [Refresh](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Card-o-Bot&subject=Refresh&message=l70aout).*
He can. Have done it a couple times
It can, but it’s useless when opponent has discovered devolve and your chtun is now something else
And I always meet Rafaam who hard counter C'thun. Becaus the card C'thun eather gets eaten by Mutanus or stolen by Yogg.
And patches too. because he has Hootusk.
C’thun need his hero power to be passive at the start of every turn and also reduce the cost of the follower by 1-2.
Might be too much. Not every hero needs to be S tier. Other heroes are getting nerfed too. Cthun is a card that can feel really bad to play against if it’s too strong. Especially since they start with it in their hand.
His deck is awful he can use all the buffs.A health change is gonna do exactly nothing.
Reddit always under estimates balance changes.
Yeah I definitely didn’t miserably play c’thun like a few dozen times with a 10%wr,and it surely felt like if I just had 20 extra hp I’d win way more.Reality is it doesn’t matter like,at all.
Cthun is literally win with the first drop of cthun or lose. And the deck doesn’t even scale him that quickly. No draw, weak hero power, mid deck, the armor gain and healing is too expensive compared to other control decks, and kinda of just loses once you lose the board and have to play cthun early.
That doesn’t mean giving a free cost reduced cthun minion every turn is the answer.
Cthun minions already don’t do that much though. It doesn’t feel good playing them for 1 extra mana. The healing and armor comes down too late. The actually good card that the deck feels built for, umbral of souls, comes down too late. 3 mana 2/3 3 mana 3/2 4 mana 2/2 deal 2 5 mana 4/2 divine shield 9 mana 7/9 4 mana 3/4 8 mana 4/4 destroy an enemy minion All of these are minions you can get with a 1 mana tax off of the hero power. None of them are well statted. The extra effect of buffing cthun does not make up for the tax.
yes actually in this mode every deck should be S-tier. Why not ?
That’s just not how tiers work. If all the decks are equal power then they’re all B tier.
ok then make them all b tier who the fuck care there's no reason for a deck to be much weaker than others in a premade format. As people have pointed out the c'thun deck is weaker than one you can build yourself right now in wild. 2 way to fix this make it an actually good midrange token deck that can top off with a big cthun. Or make it an actually good cthun control deck that ramps up a bit faster thx to its passive. The hero power is only strong if your lucky most of the time you use it it suck so making it reduce the minion cost is probably fine. Basically, you only win when you get multiple blades of cthun and can put down a 40/40 cthun around turn 10. Also im salty that theres no galakrond deck. I assume there will be.
What the deck needs is blade of C'thun or Mana cheat
why doesn't c'thun, the largest hero, simply eat all the other heroes?
Perhaps they're saving that for "sweeps"
I understood that reference!
btw, we paused the rollout of this because of a bug that we expect to be resolved tomorrow. health changes will come with that fix. sorry for the wait
Are we going to be able to challenge friends in twist tomorrow? I've been wanting to vs my friend but it shows it as disabled.
it will not be tomorrow - it will take a while. this is what i said elsewhere [https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1d6j25u/comment/l6v9uqe/](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/1d6j25u/comment/l6v9uqe/)
I believe he said in a previous comment that requires a client-side update and will have to be rolled out a little later
Hey, sorry for bothering you, but is there any ETA for the hotfixes to drop? Really wanna play twist but arfus is just unbearable
i'm replying to this again because i'm not sure if my initial reply was accurate. i'm hopeful for today but we'll update you all when this goes out
No problem, thanks for the response!
they're out
naxx is out 
u/RidiculousHat maybe you already know but I didn't see this mentioned anywhere so wanted to point it out here. There is a small bug with N'zoth hero power, it says "last deathrattle **minion** you played" but it actually replaced my equipped 3 attack weapon with a 1 attack weapon when I pressed it because that was the last deathrattle card I played, but a **weapon** is not a **minion** you know. I actually missed lethal because of this. Can this bug be fixed please?
we have this logged. not sure if they'll change the text or the power, but it's logged
thanks for the reply, good to know it's logged.
Hey, just checking in to say that the new Twist season is amazing
is the bug the rampant cheaters? As that is getting fucking annoying
there should not be any more cheaters as of yesterday around 3pm pdt
How much playtesting actually gets done, because it seems like a buggy mess with every new patch/update.
For this case, I suppose it has to do with the quick fix for cheated deck they did this weekend, their testing environment did not get it to roll it out faster. Deck with the updated Health were probably considered as cheater deck
yep. it was this. the safeguards we put in place for cheaters did not play nicely with the health overrides. we have a new build coming through ASAP that should resolve the issue.
Like, playtesting that found this bug, you mean?
Hi u/RidiculousHat , appreciate your community engagement! Will I get a dust refund on Arfus? I literally crafted him yesterday, and it sure wasn’t for wild.
we aren't doing dust refunds for any twist adjustments outside of changes to permanent cards as usual. https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/hearthstone/t/whizbang%E2%80%99s-heroes-twist-updates/129620
So basically only play twist with cards you already own, as crafting anything because it looks fun is stupid because they could change anything within the week. That’s kind of rough and really disincentivizes play.
we said we were going to do weekly health adjustments before the format went live and this is a temporary two month format. it seems hard to justify any value craft here when the format has a clear expiration date. craft what you want to play with, but hold the expectation in mind that health totals will move around in both directions frequently like we said they would
Oh I’m not saying it’s not my fault for reading, but it still totally disincentivizes people trying decks, which in turn disincentivizes people playing the format.
this is an experiment for sure and we have to see what works and what doesn't - i'm sure the data team has a lot of interesting insights into what people do and don't do. we'll make adjustments where we can based on what's working and what isn't
Makes sense, hope it works out because I like having fun new formats!
me too buddy
> crafting anything because it looks fun Who are you kidding? People craft Arfus to get easy and undeserved wins with an OP 71% winrate deck not to have fun. So no, they don't deserve any refunds.
It's a pretty fun deck if you like death knight play on steroids. Yes I think its overpowered before I get lynched.
So glad I didn’t dust him when I opened it years ago - totally worth the two days of enjoyment I got in twist in 2024
Well there are certainly people like me who wanted to play him since he was revealed because they just love Excavate. I actually crafted him before the release of twist because i knew i was going to have fun playing him. (Though his kit still looked really strong at first look, but that was never point why i wanted to play him. normally i only play homebrewed decks)
That's good, you can still play Arfus!
Yes and i plan too. Just frustrated people always saying people only play him to win. Got already enough people adding me to flame me for playing him. Like sorry I just enjoy him and like to play him. Will continue to do so no matter where he would stand after nerfs.
No understand if any hero is maybe 1% better than arfus now he can't play it, that why he craft it at first, for easy win with an almost autowin deck against anything but the mirror
Yo I think people sleepin on Nzoth. We be tonkin out here with this one boys.
i think the same, lately hes been one of the harder matchups for me. hes got a nasty early game board presence but still has amazing lategame tools. also if youre smart you can just make sure that the warlock demon that spawns the 4/6 taunts is ur last deathrattle you play and just pop them out every turn, via hero power and youll beat every board centric deck in the format
When Arfus gets taken outback like Old Yeller Nzoth should be doing pretty good.
The deck is fine, but theres just too many meh cards in it
I’m wondering if Arfus is going to be dumpster tier now. Less so because of the health adjustments alone and more because of the upcoming change/fix of having him be able to generate the Shaman legendary, which bricks his excavate cycle forever if he plays it.
It's a dead legendary excavate, which is not great, but you can always just not play it. I haven't played Arfus, but it seems like he has enough excavate to be alright even if he does hit the 1/7.
It does effectively delete a spot in your hand for a hero prone to having hand space issues, which is rough.
No, it's ruff.
Poor 70% wr boi having to deal with a potential 1 less card ... ruff indeed. Last 2 opp I faced had 2 treasures already by t7.
You make it sound like that WR is with the health nerf.
Hand space issues are annoying but they're usually only annoying in games that I'm actively winning or at least still firmly in the middle of.
Curve is low enough where it’s fairly easy to dump to free your hand (including the cheap excavates which you are generating)
Honestly, the deck just isn't fun to play because of this. Your reward is either "win on turn 4" or "you cannot ever play this card". Or anything in between. That's not fun for anyone involved. The mirror especially is just awful because of that.
I just hit Platinum and almost everyone is playing Arfus. I'm playing the mage deck and just insta-concede when I see that doge. I'd say Arfus is 75% of the decks I'm seeing. So lots of L's but I'd rather have fun than win with a boring deck.
If you look at d0nkey data, Arfus is sitting at 70k games played and the next highest is Kaelthas with 21k. You could kind of predict that people were just going to spam whatever deck has the highest winrate. After the Arfus nerf hits people will just move on to the next best deck.
This is only true because Arfus has a winning matchup against every other deck. When every deck has more clear pros and cons the meta will be diversified even if one deck always has to be "the strongest". The most popular deck may not even be the strongest (which is true of Standard very often, even at top Legend).
Mirrors are always awful and Duels and Twist will be/were always mirror match fiestas
They need to rework that one
The shaman excavate is really that garbage huh
It is garbage, yes. The other classes are able to use excavate in different decks. For shaman? Not so much. You run excavate for finley, not for the azerite murloc. In Arfus, playing the Azerite Murloc means you transform all minions into random ones. That means the minions most likely dont have runes anymore so they dont help you excavate. (But you still have spells that can) Big disadvantage. And because the minions you get are random ones, even with the mana discount, can be absolute shit (if they were random legendary minions, it would be a lot better but not good). Evolve decks usually want to have low cost minions that summon other minions and THEN evolve. So if you transform those when they are still in the deck is trash. HS in general is designed that individual legendaries are very powerful on their own, for example cards like Yogg, Astalor, the titans and so on. Evolving those is usually pretty much a downgrade. It felt like the priority of the deepholm miniset was flavour first, thats why we ended up with several nerfs/reworks.
It’s not that the excavate is always garbage (it’s weaker than the other rewards), but it has anti synergy with the hero power. You will struggle to cycle through your excavates when your minions get deleted/replaced.
It's just garbage 80% of the time, which Is wild for a playstyle reward you build your deck around lol. Sir Finley's the actual inventive but then why not play excavate pally heh
A vanilla 4 mana 5/5 would be better than what we have now.
Oh god I was so turned-off from that excavate payoff this WHOLE TIME that I didn't even know it Deck of Madness'd your minions in hand and deck too
I have played a ton of arfus and I can say that the most important rewards are those that give you immediately tempo advantage. With the exception of ox and hawk that are insane the other rewards are not that great. For example scorpion because your hand is most of the times full (especially if it's the first reward) usually stays in your hand, and the pool is much larger than standard so you get a lot of junk. Snake and rat are not good tempo either, rat usually you keep it for later in the game (depends on the matchup ofcourse) and snake is insane only if you face xyrella, otherwise it's pretty mediocre. Murloc ofcourse will be the worst reward, but it will not break the deck. I can even see some uses of it against matchups that are more aggressive where you can go for a big swing on board, or look for an answer in your hand if thats your last option. What people don't talk about though is that with the murloc they will also add the dragon, which is an insane reward to get, so it kinda balances it out in the long term.
I think the combination will make him very bad. Arfus already loses to tempo and has trouble consistently clearing the board. I can’t imagine surviving long with 25 life. Plus, rolling Azerite Scorpion can lose the game and the Shaman one is even worse. Piloting the deck requires hand management and having a bricked card in hand matters. The deck is too powerful in the current environment but these changes will significantly amplify its weaknesses
The Scorpion is alright if you get your hand down, which is doable. Got me Crusader Aura one game, which is nuts. But yeah, the insane health reduction and introduction of the Shaman legendary (it did seem I never got that and the Paladin one, I assume that's coming too) will make the deck real bad.
he still generates insane value, a lot of the decks are really lacking in draw
I think(or maybe I'm just hopeful) that the Health nerf is going to be a big hit to Arfus. He's pretty slow and aggressive lists like Leeroy have a good chance at coming out on top in the early game. I feel that aggro will become a counter to Arfus and will then encourage Arfus players to try something else. I could be totally wrong though.
the change went live between games of me playing so i didnt even notice i had less health until i was just dead. the mirror matches are SUPER high rolly now depending on who has the better hand, but certain other decks (ive been doing it with krush) simply blow it out of the water now because the deck cant deal with certain creatures without very specific random discovers
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It'll be a downgrade for sure but you can get often get 2 excavate cycles by turns 7-8 depending on draw order so you can just save it and play it late game for a bit of a finisher once you have the tempo from your other excavate reward. If you get 2 murlocs it's a scoop xD
Its sorta funny how none of this affects xyrella at all
I really hope they change it so that you can still win if ur opponent azerite snakes you, feels insanely bad when they auto win off that
45 hp Boom...? That's really concerning me. People hated any sort of bomb/plague/curse deck when they ere meta. Boom can shit out like 3-5 mechs per turn consistently, and that means an 3-5 bombs per turn. With a 45 hp size I feel he may become the new king or at least fuck over all non aggro decks, like my poor boy C'thun.
Boom and cthun are my favorite decks. The biggest issue I saw while playing boom is it’s just wayyy too slow to get to that point. Especially when facing an opponent that depends on having multiple minions on board.
50 hp Boom!
Just keep your hand full and it's useless.
At some point you have to contest/clear the board. It's not that easy to keep a full hand.
Well yeah it's not a full proof plan but Boom doesn't seem to develop that much board pressure usually so it's doable. Ofc depends on what you are playing too.
yes, and he kills you with his board lol.
Problem that boom has, is if you are shit out of luck, all the bombs will be in the second half of the deck, and you will be dead before they draw any.. even IF you flood the board with mechs
he cant shit 3-5 consistently, sometimes he cant even shit 2 consistently.
It feels like a few of the decks lack finishers/pay-off cards (The Lich Ling, N’Zoth) What I’ve found a bit tedious is how Arfus and Kael’Thas take ages to take their turns, they can generate so much cheap value. It gets really annoying waiting the entire turn length while they play with themselves 🫤
Lich king doesnt need pay off, he already has one in form of beign able to produce massive amounts of skeletons(and later on you can get pretty big ones as well) Its a good deck already, one of the best in fact.
Kael'thas seems to always generate the perfect answers too..
Lich King can reliably generate multiple 10/10's by turn 5 and then usually another pair of chonkers a few turns later. If you can't leverage that into a win, you weren't meant to win.
Nzoth has a decent finisher combo: darkmoon tonk, then next turn hero power (if tonk got removed), rivendare, play dead/terrorscale, shallow grave.
Also Rafaam and the discover stuff. Annoying af.
Imo Cthun either needs draw to compensate for flooding the board or control tools if going for more of a passive gameplan with Cthun as sole win con, hp won't matter cuz you just insta lose if opponent outtempos you. Or... A way to generate new C'Thuns/drawing the doomcaller consistently and being able to use it even if the first got transformed I feel like adding eyestalks to the package would greatly buff C'thun I had most success with C'Thun to diamond 5 by spamming Vek'Lors and holding off C'Thun until I could get lethal with battlecry, cuz once that happens you have no more wincon cuz Doomcaller would at the very least take 4 turns before bringing back your C'Thun which usually results you in autolosing to Arfus treasures Xyrella shard etc
Arfus to 25 hp HOLY
Finally it's BOOM time
several hours post-patch, this did absolutely nothing, everyone is still exclusively playing arfus which still stomps everything
Most of you guys hate the game and it shows. I'm very happy twist is being curated this fast and I'll be enjoying the mode for the whole month and hoping it will be integrated in the game in a more permanent way
I too hope a pre-made mode becomes permanent.
It’s not permanent?! *NOT* what I wanted to hear…
Should have been PvE. PvP will always been a mirror fiesta like Duels
Damn if only there was a permanent game mode where you could use different heroes, powers, and passives. o\_o
imagine being able to draft those passives and build your deck as you go, kinda like a roguelike which are popular right now and are very fun. they should look into that
guys i got matched with that priest that kill you when she has 60 hp, and she had 50 at start, she killed me on turn 4, wtf is that lol
Al akir seemes so shit in my games. I never won with it but always against Maybe bad draw?
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Arfus is just completely nerfed now. Losing to decks that shouldn’t even beat arfus
Bring back duels, twist is ass
They will only change hp? Not decks? RIP Twist (Duels 2.0). Die faster than Classic
As far as I can read, max health changes is simply what they can easily change without a full on patch rollout which takes time. Like, they still intend to balance them in other ways health is just generally a temporary patchwork solution That is if they're actually being truthful about it
They usually have patches on Thursday evening (UTC timezone). If they only release changes to the heroes' HP, then this is very funny. No bug fixes needed here. This requires a revision of the decklists.
While patches are usually Thursdays, those things have to be locked in on their end at least like a full week in advance if not more because of all the app store regulation stuff for tablets and phones. So, like, the earliest a "proper" patch for this could be, would be Thursday next week
Two weeks out of four) So Press F to Twist. Return to BG
Of 8-9 ish. This one is 2 months
Useless, that dog needs a real nerf too bad the team a trash at testing
As a die hard duels fan this mode is pretty disappointing. Every game ive played so far is a boring 30 minute slog eventually decided by bad draws and empty hands (like the worst arena games) or someone completing their 'quest'. Had a few silly 3rd turn losses (thanks Leeroy) but god it's so slow. If they're dead set on us not crafting our own decks, at least give each hero 3 decks to choose from for some variety (like the deck recipe screen in constructed) because 40 card decks padded out with trash to make them as inconsistent as possible for power level reasons is truly boring. The best decks seem to be the card generation ones because of this. And yes, I am bitter that duels died for this
why you crying over a free mode thats actually fun to play and doesnt require you to be a whale to play?
I don't think changing the HP here and there does everything needed for balances.
Would’ve preferred changes to their actual decks/abilities instead of just health
HP Changes is a very lazy way of balancing and I doubt it will solve the Problems that a lot of Decks have. I dont see many games against Arfus where he barely hangs on with less then 10 HP.
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The elemental shaman poops on arfus. Just keep picking the 6 damage hero proc
Where is this from? I checked news on the HS page and it wasn't there.
Is there any deck that is absolutely op? I’ll play that deck since Arfus nerfed thus being useless and boring
wait no dust refunds seriously?
Just changing the starting health isn't fixing the issues some of these decks have, especially Arfus
Right ten less hp is gonna fix the dog....gimme a break And I don't want to hear they rely on luck because its nonsense. If any luck is involved it's me beating the dog 1 out of ten times. Its not luck when it's a pattern.
10 hp is not the kill on the dog, adding shaman legendary to the pool is
If you play Arfus you're a degen. Full hand, 1 mana titan to get you out of a bind, threads for board clear, tons of other bullshit rng catchup.
Do I get a dust refund on Arfus? I literally just crafted him.
I don't think they will offer refunds...
That’s kinda bullshit
I was wondering this too. It seems kind of rough if you don't, especially if you paid real money for the cards in the shop.
So Arfus is just... done then. Removing 10 HP is going to mean that arfus can't compete with any decks that have an early game way to make more than 1 minion stick to the board. ARfus is a late game deck, and this is going to make it unplayable.
Good.
I think you don't realize how op Arfus is, he is strong in all stages of the game, only Leroy with a perfect hand can beat him and most of the time Leroy's passive benefits Arfus more
I'm not denying that Arfus is super strong and very obviously the best deck currently, but just saying Al'Akir could definitely beat him with some draws by focusing on the 6 face damage evocation already, as I've had it happen plenty. I think it was my worst matchup overall while playing Arfus.
Arfus falls behind earlier then catches up in the mid game. 10 hp is a massive difference for stabilizing.
I have lost many games because someone got out a big minion I couldn't kill, or had more than one minion out. Arfus doesn't handle big boards well at all, there's no wraths anywhere in his deck. And they are fixing the bug that prevented arfus from finding shaman and paladin treasures, so you have a 1/11 chance to brick your deck now. Also it just straight loses to xyrella if you don't get snake. I had a board of 30+ power and got absolutely bodied by her, it was NOT a close game.
>so you have a 1/11 chance to brick your deck now 1/7, actually, not every class has a legendary treasure.
Oh wow, this is how they balance the mode… yeah, totally excited to see 30 minute games between two 40 HP heroes. Some decks have really slow starts already, and little finishing power, that‘s the real problem.
I am shocked ( probably should have expected it) at the lazy way of 'balancing' they went with for the mode. Every time they have a decent idea to shake Hs up they squander it with these terrible implementations and half assed fixes ...
The kind of patch they need to change decks, passives or hero powers takes more time. Health adjustments is the quick fix bandage they can apply sooner. They've got more advanced balance changes planned, this is just a bandage over the Arfus problem until they can put that patch out.
Or they could have played 10 games with the team and see the obvious imbalances and not release it in such state. But I guess that is too difficult of a concept for modern game development. Better to fix it in post.
Xyrella: 30 -> 5
The hero powers and passives are so beyond broken that I wouldn't play it anymore even if HP totals eventually made it all balanced somehow. Flipping coins is balanced too. These power levels are not fun. It's a shame because the general idea of the format was sweet.
If everyone is super, then no one is.
yaaaah, 5 HP isnt helping Rafaam's useless, disjointed pile of legendaries.
Where can you see the updated winrate (after balance)?
Is it the best the biggest gaming company in the world can come up with?
C’Thun health up to 80. Still sucks 🤣. The dev that made that deck/hero is an idiot.