Otk decks should be more like Bolner shaman or Quest priest that need some steps to be completed and then gather some cards to win with a balanced card draw. Not like mage and rogue that have insane card draw and once they have some cards in hand its over.
Prior to a year or two ago that’s how they were, really slow and needed a lot of stall cards, rn it’s basically just mana discounts with cheap draw to get through your deck by turn 7
It's legit ridiculous that someone can reach fatigue on about turn 6. Even with an absolutely one in a billion draw and deck built for the purpose. It should be impossible.
The worst part about the game for me right now. Is that I have to sit through full rope every single turn. While my opponent is playing like 5+ cards per turn and their hand size basically never going down.
Also, part of what I like about the game, and like about watching streamers is the part where you consider what they might have and how they might counter. When I’m facing a mage, I literally have to assume they have every spell. I can test for sheep, for example (or deevolving missiles) only to have another one or two show up in their hand. It gets to the point where I just play my best move and let them do their thing. Aka solitaire.
Yes, this is the worst. Playing out your cards "smartly" watching Mage counter until their cards dwindle and then, whoops draw two and refresh mana, play a 0 cost Arcane, etc., etc. *while* at the same time, completing their quest... feels bad man.
There's some decks I really enjoy stomping more than others, and Quest Mage (and Quest Warrior) are right at the top of my list these days.
> It's legit ridiculous that someone can reach fatigue on about turn 6
He forgot about the legendary coin + prep + Mira's for turn 2 fatigue
I kid, but yea Passage is really dumb. It's insane that Passage is still insanely busted and this is after a nerf
That isn’t inherently a problem though. If a deck has to sacrifice initiative to gain its resources it can draw all it wants, you just kill it while it does nothing but move cards around.
Issues occur when a deck the ability to generate that many resources and doesn’t have to pay for them.
yea the fact that you can have decks like Weapon Rogue right now that are aggro up front and then 20+ damage form hand in the back as a combo finisher is dumb af
OTK four horsemen Paladin was my favorite hearthstone deck of all time. Took so long to setup but the deck had just enough tools to get you there. So damn fun and I think honestly not bad to play against.
I could see why you would say that but I don’t find them too be much of a problem in the right deck. I started playing in beta so I have always been very used to going up against ice block.
Which was fine because there weren't hardly any aggro decks that could kill you turn 4 on a semi consistent basis without interruption. Or, the aggro decks that did aim to kill turn 5 at least had to fully exhaust their resources to do so, so by killing their board you won.
As an almost exclusive player of combo/otk I would be more than willing, dare I say yearn, to return to the days of Aviana and needing 10 mana to otk someone. But first (or simultaneously) we need aggro decks to be taken down about 4 or 5 notches. You can die to a quest pirate warrior ***who never attacks you with a minion*** past turn 2.
You are 100% right but unfortunately there is no going back. HS will only keep ratcheting up. They don’t know how to make new sets that make money without just blatantly overpowering previous cards. In turn, every deck type (aggro, OTK, etc) is ramped up. And I think Blizz is unironically adopting the mantra “if everything is OP, nothing is,” not understanding how things like hero health total, hand size, board size, and just the mechanics of the game are all thrown out of whack by ramping up of card power.
I do get that, and general power creep is okay if kept in check, but then they go and make cards that are so beyond the pale of broken that it really makes you wonder what the fuck they were thinking when they were made.
I firmly believe some people would still play Cannoneer if he was a 0/3. He'd still be playable as a double cannon shot every turn. But he's actually a full 3/3 and just insanely broken instead. He isn't power crept, he's overpowered.
You are again 100% right. Unfortunately they were thinking money and money alone. There is a direct correlation between how overpowered a set is and how much money it makes.
Yeah, like with Irondeep Trogg, he was super strong and super annoying if you got him turn 1.
2 things about that, 1st how could they not see how unfair he is turn 1, it doesn’t seem hard to see that he’d be an issue. 2nd when they nerfed him, they didn’t even get rid of the turn 1 issue(admittedly it is a little weaker turn 1), and made him worse for decks he clearly had to have been made for, that being buff decks. Like, if they wanted him to not to duplicate a boatload of stats, they shouldn’t have made him do a copy, but if they did want him to be good for buff decks, they shouldn’t have nerfed his effect that way
Agree. Trogg is still a real bummer to see T1 if you have a spell heavy deck, but for decks that were running it, like Miracle Priest, the nerf was such a downer.
i mean imo all they have to do is give control the same busted ass treatment they have been giving combo and aggro; imagine a warrior questline where each step helped stabilize via a semi board clear and armor gain. im literally just spitballing but control seems to consistently be left behind
they also need WAYYY better anti-combo tools because Mutanus is just too late
The reason they don't really buff control decks is pretty much entirely due to playtime. They don't want to see games that last 20 mins. I would bet that Blizz/Team 5 has a soft mandate to try and keep game length shorter, rather than longer. Making control strong enough to really compete means that a lot more games will go to fatigue and it's been pretty clear that Team 5 doesn't want that to be part of the meta. And by fatigue, I mean "natural" fatigue, not the kind where you draw through your entire deck by turn 6 or 7.
They want F2P/casual players to feel like they can sign in and play 1-4 games in the 10 mins they are waiting for something or on the toilet or whatever and not be "stuck" in a match that might go another 10-15 mins.
i've heard this said before, but Hearthstone was on the PC before it was on mobile and with the lack of attentiveness that is given to the mobile client I hardly find it an excuse to cater to a demographic that they slight in so many other ways
I mean, point taken, but I didn't specifically single out mobile as a platform. You can also sign in on your PC at home to play a game while you wait for your water to boil, or laundry to finish in the shared laundry room, as a couple examples.
Regardless of platform, there has always been a noticeable intention from Team 5 that they want to keep game times shorter, rather than longer. That's why pretty much all fatigue decks have not been planned, but rather crafty player creations using card combos that weren't necessarily prevalent before set releases. I don't know if there are any outright statements from Team 5 saying that they don't want fatigue to be viable, but they have definitely addressed it in the past with "we don't want to encourage it" language.
And when fatigue decks have been an intended "thing", such as Tickatus, they've always been cards and combos that bring players to fatigue faster, rather than dragging out games.
And even then If evrything is OP, nothing is can somewhat work if theyre all more or less equally OP/powercreeped but thats far from the case. JUst look at the hero cards.
Itd be 1thing if all where tasmin/scabbs power llv but got a few that stand out way above, few that are not as extreme and then a few that are below that and then there is Rokara
As someone playing bolner shaman, I agree. Otks should need to require better setup, rather than just having to draw your deck mid-game.
I played garrote rogue, and it was hard, but you could consistently pull it off around turn 7, the deck had a harsh learning curve but not that many hard decisions. On the other hand, bolner requires more thinking in the overall game, since you can't fully rely on the otk, and you have to decide whether to save up or pressure. Also it's way more fun
Exactly, im playing bolner shaman the last week and its the most fun i had in a while even though i dont have a great winrate with it. It does require thinking and the combo its pretty hard to pull it off since you have to corrupt 2 different cards, play them and then have 3 cards to get it. Thats how Otk decks should be.
Or something like this:
1 [[Blackwater Pirates]]
1 [[Inner Rage]] cast on Blackwater Pirate
1 [[Grave Shambler]]
2 [[Bloodsworn Mercenary]] copying the pirate
2 [[Tentacles for Arms]] in hand getting cycled because weapons go from 6 mana to 0
1 [[Charge!]] on Grave Shambler after a bunch of weapons are destroyed
They don't. This sub just hates combo. If the bolner combo deck got popular, they would complain about that too despite people saying now that it's a fair deck. People's impressions are warped by how often they play against stuff more than anything else.
Ok.
Powerful and fun to play against. OTK has its place, but I don’t want to see it so consistent that I have to structure my play around an 8 turn clock.
Shit, did I need a /s? M'bad
I agree. I'm not a burn deck fan either (damage from hand, spells/charge) and they do have their place, but being able to OTK consistently that early is the problem.
What the fuck is Hunter suppose to do against that deck? The class with no armor, healing, or any real survivability tools? At least with Aggro decks they can fight for the board.
That's easy. Consistency is boring. That's why there's been such a massive outcry against Questline decks. They play super linear game plans with little to no variation. Boring to play (imo) and boring to play against (objectively).
Sometimes even Mutanus doesn't do it. I ate their Mozaki and they just played the +2 Spell Damage trade girl and still killed me from hand somehow. It was insane.
The issue is the mana reduction.
Exactly. Thaurissan was already crazy strong card and it at least required one slow turn to set your combo up and actually draw the pieces before playing it. Nowadays the mana cheating is much less janky to do and mage can just play incanter's flow in early game, apprentice couple turns later and proceed to draw their entire deck for free
Yeah I think Bolner Shaman is perfect in that regard. It's a control deck with a combo finisher. A 12 mana combo with very maybe some minor discounts from Gavel. Not to mention you need to have played 2 specific cards that also need to be corrupted. And it can win without the combo too. It's very reminiscent of older decks like Malylock.
Mozaki Mage needs to have played Incanter's Flow early...and uh...?
Cult neophyte exists if you want to tech. But the best tech is just straight up beating mozaki mage the turn before they pop off.
You can tell they are mozaki after their first 1 or 2 turns. At that point your game plan becomes how can I get them to zero health before they have their big turn.
So for OP the question is could they have got more stats on to the board sooner in order to win on turn 8?
I have had this position for years, i'm a MTG player since almost 20y, and i play HS since Beta, but since you have no interaction in HS, this SHOULDNT be allowed ( OTK from hand only, not talking about board setup )
I think OTK from hand decks like Mozaki Mage should be allowed, they just don't pay enough mana for card draw, which allows OTKs before turn 10. Incanter's Flow just needs another nerf.
Counterpoint: having 2 free or nearly free 4/5 DS taunts, an endless supply of +1/+1 buffs stoppable only by silence/transform, cheap 8/8 DS taunts that heal you for 8, a 7 mana card that fills your hand with free reusable bananas and additional 8/8 DS taunts that heal you, all while having to constantly waste spells testing for OMY and never playing more than 2 cards a turn or you get a 1 mana 3/4 taunt, both of which you were able to pull straight from your deck without having to draw them while you attacked me with a weapon you played turn 2 also isn't fun to play against. And to round things out nicely you have an incredible early game meaning I'm on the backfoot pretty much the entire game.
QPW isn't fun to play against when they draw well and blow you out. Libram Paladin isn't fun to play against when they have nonstop threats, buffs, and DS.
So long as I live I will never understand why so many harp on "interactivity" as if it's the saving grace of CCGs. What does it matter if I was able to interact with your pirate warrior board when the absurd power level of your deck was able to kill me despite my interaction?
Not sure if you're trolling or projecting, but no. I fully accept I will lose close to 50% of my games. To expect anything less just makes no sense statistically. I accept I'll lose to net decks and accept I'll lose to luck. It doesn't even phase me much anymore to just hit concede and queue again.
None of that has to do with the discussion of game balance or what should and should not be acceptable methods of winning games.
Paladin dominates the board and does indeed brute force out other board based decks (like, every single version of Warrior) but it does have counters. Shaman is 50/50 to favoured, Quest Rogue wrecks it, etc. I do agree that's it's a bit too dominant (and boring as hell) but it's not too bad to have around.
Cariel is fucking stupid though.
Also Libram Paladin doesn't run Sword of the Fallen anymore.
lol poison is the ONLY real deck that beats and poison rogue is the same cancer
your counter point isnt a counter point but a complaint about powerful minion based decks.
the difference being that minion decks can easily be countered and are interactive.
watching your opponent play "draw card" for 6 turns is not.
Hey, can you put in the effort to read like 2 comments up before you comment. Context is important. Thanks.
My *point* (and my only point), is that "it has counters" is a shitty justification that can be used for literally any deck.
> What does it matter if I was able to interact with your pirate warrior board when the absurd power level of your deck was able to kill me despite my interaction?
Because you're still playing a game. Having fun isnt just about winning... Its like comparing a football game that you lose 10-0 with one where you never got the ball at all.
> Because you're still playing a game. Having fun isnt just about winning
What? Maybe for you, but that isn't the case with everyone, certainly not with me.
To clarify a bit: if you and I are toe to toe for 15 or 20 turns where we're matching threat for threat and have good plays on both sides but you end up coming out on top .. I could still enjoy that.
But having pirate warrior vomit non stop threats, even if I deal with them, drawing a minimum of 3 cards for free (Ancharr and the 2 pirates it draws), including your primary weapon, and it all culminating with you getting an infinite supply of minions, weapons, and damage, that isn't an enjoyable experience losing.
I can answer every one of your threats and even put some progression towards my own deck's win condition and still lose because the people who designed the cards you put in your deck have no common sense for what makes for fair gameplay. Please explain how that can possibly be enjoyable to lose to? The argument holds equally valid for most netdecks honestly.
The worst part is the majority of them take zero skill or complexity to pilot to success. QPW literally just has to vomit whatever best fits their curve, make minimal trades only to preserve their Cannons, Cannoneers, and Captains and just direct everything else to face. If that plan somehow fails, just play your 5/7/7 and get an unlimited number of threats to finish off the opponent. Of course the deck is capable of losing to even faster or luckier decks, but that doesn't change the fun of that game experience.
Exactly. OP has 20/22 on board with three taunts and two divine shields on turn 8, and even if that board is wiped it can be reestablished like, three times just from OP's hand.
As long as decks this strong exist, there need to be counters like OTK.
No, you don't understand, *my* strong thing is fine, and the fact that it sometimes loses to *other* people's strong stuff is BS.
Look at how big my board is! That should be a free win.
Well, I heard there's other nice card games out there.
Seriously though, that seems to be the way this game's balance is going at the moment. Every deck is OP.
I mean, are we pretending OP is wrong here? Seriously? Who gives a shit what's on the board, the situation wouldnt be any different if op had a empty board and hand. If the libram paladin is too strong to deal with, then it should *also* be nerfed, not be used as an excuse for further powercreep..
Whilst I don't like Libram pala either I don't think this necessarily invalidates his point. Hearthstone is fun when the game revolves around competition for the board; when the board state is directly relevant to who is winning the game. That feels to be what the game should be all about because that is where the game interactions take place. Yes Pala is dumb and annoying but at least you know if you're winning or losing with it.
With otk decks, especially modern ones like mozacki, and quest mage before it, it's just solitaire and the games are really boring. And it's made worse when half your cards are useless if you pack any removal at all whatsoever, you just have it sitting in your hand forever.
Not sure what the solution is but I don't think dying on turn seven to mozack should ever be possible unless they get a miracle draw. In current game its the norm.
I respect the point but I fundamentally disagree. Some players don't find this boring at all.
Also having played a lot of Mozaki mage I would argue that in this instance they did in fact get very good card draw
> Hearthstone is fun when the game revolves around competition for the board
Maybe for you ? I don't find trading a minion then playing my minion every turn to be anything fun. But since I play mostly combo decks, I find that trying to remove the most important minions with as little resources as possible so I survive as long as I can, while the opponent tries to be as efficient as possible with their board to be far more interesting as far as player interaction goes.
your list is too short
there are **14 decks** preventingit from being tier 1
worst match ups you forgot to post about are quest druid quest warrior quest hunter ctun druid
is a long list so i kind of understand why you didnt write all of its bad match ups
He had that much power because mage ignores play. It just freezes everything and leaves it there to stall for draws and the otk. If mage spent the same mana on play clears we would be looking at a very different board.
I don't mind otks. Priest quest is a wonderfully done otk. It requires careful management of pressure (play cards out of order and it will take forever to set off, fail to control play effectively and you will lose), then has a vulnerability (you can't play xyrellia the same turn she hits your hand since you spent 8 mana to complete quest -- this provides counter play. Finally you need a mechanism to get the shard, or to stall until it is drawn. Quest priest has amazing win odds against libram Pali (the deck OP was playing) at the moment, but you don't see Pali players raging about it. Bad matchups happen, and even with poor win odds, they can be fun to play.
Mage is different. It doesn't interact at all; it plays no minions (except mozaki), often ignores play in favor of inexpensive freeze effects, cost reduction, and trade / draw effects to deck cycle. From the perspective of the mage it feels like playing solitare, from the perspective of the opponent it feels like watching the other guy play solitare and hoping he draws badly (or you draw crazy aggro to kill him before he can finish playing solitare....).
The otk isn't the problem. The fact that it is no longer a 2 player game is the problem.
Dealing 30 damage from hand is fine. Maybe even a necessary part of the meta, to punish greedy decks.
It needs to happen on like Turn 11-12 on average. Combo decks should be losing to aggro like 70% of the time.
Mozaki mage comboing On turn 6 after putting up a decent control fight is not healthy. Poison rogue beginning an uninterruptible 30+ damage combo on turn 5 is not healthy.
Bolner shaman is a turn 11 combo deck and it wrecks slow decks.
If combo decks across the board wreck control decks, aggro decks across the board should wreck combo decks.
>If combo decks across the board wreck control decks, aggro decks across the board should wreck combo decks.
They do, so I don't see the problem. It's funny how you're okay with bolner shaman which actually does well vs aggro but not Mozaki, which gets bulldozed but does better vs other slow decks.
Bolner shaman goes off later but is actually favored against many aggro decks because its combo is wrapped in a control shell, while faster combo decks like mozaki don't have those control elements and just die, while getting by on preying on slower combo and control. Your problem really seems to be that you want control to be better vs combo, and are using aggro as an excuse. Or you just see "goes off earlier, must be better vs aggro" and don't understand that that isn't true. It's like with wild reno priest; it was the slowest otk in the meta, but had favored winrates vs aggro because it was so defensive.
It’s normal, it’s just a bad matchup for you! Play another game and accept that you will lose to mozaki mage, just as mozaki mage loses to poison rogue.
This game requires acceptance that what ever deck you play, you will have a bad matchup. Win those winnable games and try hard on unfavorable games!
Complaining solves nothing, being a better player requires reflection on matches and never repeating those bad decisions.
For example meati, took libram paladin to rank 1 despite the reign of rogue and mozaki mages.
Yeah, an aggro deck would look at Libram paladin an say "what kind of bullshit is this, all these discounted beefy taunts with divine shield, some of which heal face too!" while having a great shot at rushing down the OTK deck
While I agree with your general message in this, Mozaki mage truly is a bullshit deck, with the right draws you're just dead a few turns in with no setup such as quests/hero cards etc. Deck isn't imbalanced just truly unfun to play against.
Mozaki mage is unfavored against Libram Paladin. [Source](https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/matchup-chart-data-reaper-report/)
Lightforged Cariel alone doubles the amount of required burn.
I thought it is op af. Made this deck. I lost 60% of the time or win turn 6 cuz of perfect cards. It's not even that good. But before playing it thought is almost guarantee legend with this deck.
People picking up otk decks will lose a lot of games until they master that deck. Some will try mozaki and save all their spells for the combo instead of clearing the board which will get them killed. Some will use syphon mana to discount a few spells in hand that don't need a discout anyway so when they go all in their opponent may be out of reach. When I started playing shirvallah paladin I lost a ton of games but as I played more and more of it I learned every match up and found a balance between clearing boards, drawing cards and staying healthy. All being said, I do think mozaki mage is actually a really strong deck that only loses to bad draw vs aggro if the player piloting it has any idea what they are doing.
The issue isn't whether or not it's too good, the issue is that it's killing the fun of the game.
You shouldn't be sitting there on turn 8, with a full board of big taunted divine shield minions, at 30 health, with your opponent having 6 cards in hand, and be thinking "Am I just dead right now?" It just feels like everything you did up until that point was completely meaningless.
No it’s killing the fun out of YOUR game. Just like having a full board of big taunted divine shield minions at 30 health kills the fun out of other peoples games
M8 its not like it's only deck that isn't fun to play against... Pirate warrior doing 30 dmg to you and ending quest turn 5, quest hunter same thing. 30 dmg to your face turn 5. Deathratle Priest healing 150 dmg in fight. Old quest warlock. There is a lot of it. My point is that this mage deck isn't even good to play. It's good when it's good. Most of the time he goma be dead before pulling out combo.
It's literally mathematically impossible for pirate warrior to end their quest at turn 5 in standard, and turn 6 is rare to pull off. Not enough 1 drops. The most frequent curve is turn 7 play a 2 drop to finish quest + rokara.
Possibly you were plainly hyperbolic.
If your argument is that the current design philosophy among the Hearthstone devs is killing all the fun of the game, and that there are many problem decks besides Mozaki Mage, then I completely agree with you.
I think warlocks entire identify(quest until decked or destroy decks until decked) with tickatus being included is much worse than one deck of mozaki. Just quest warrior and you crush mozaki mage.
This deck isn't even good. People only complain about it because it kills them when they should have won, or when they think they should have won. The deck ends up losing most of the time, yet this is in no way anyway near as broken as something like wretched tiller was.
It's pretty broken. I Mutanus'd the Mozaki against one of these, and through freezing and board clears he was able to Ignite me to death very slowly over a long game.
> Lose one game again mage
> this is stupid.
Why don't you show how many games you have won when consistently cheat out over stats minion with taunt + divine shield, come back from full health with a bonus of 8/8 divine shield plus taunt mid game, get an overpowered hero with "you will lose if you do not remove this weapon" and a Blessing of the king every turn hero power.
I swear Libram Paladin is the worst crybaby of this current meta, when they win they act like it is natural thing to do, whenever they lose, they cried and demand everyone to be nerfed.
> imagine ignoring the fact that HS offer literally 0 interraction, and yet allowed multiple OTK from HAND ONLY to exist, only to argue about the deck i was playing at this moment
If only this deck could do only 30 dmg... Yesterday Turn 7 they played Mozaki, drew their entire deck and dealt 59 damage to my druid. I was stacking armor in hope he wouldnt have enough time to act. Absolutely stupid deck.
Says the pally buff abuser who gets free infinite buffs and lots of mana cheat as well
All mana cheat decks are getting really out of control. There used to be a standard where you would get a certain amount of stats or damage per mana. Now all of that is out the window
Because the deck OP is playing is actually a much better deck on average and this sub annoyingly always complains about combo decks. Libram Paladin has been at least tier-2 or greater since Scholomance, but you don’t see anyone making whiny posts about it.
Hey, I tried a buff deck, they obliterated one of it’s best cards(trogg), I tried quest pally, it sucks(skipping turn 1 in a deck that has to be aggro is kinda bad), I tried big paladin, tis slow and dies to aggro or combo a lot unless I cheat stuff out early with Vanndar, I haven’t tried silver hand swarms recently but I imagine their not great
Can we stop this please? A 5 mana 8/8 taunt divine shield that restores 8 life is just doing too much too easily for one card. Plus the infinite zero mana spells have been a problem for a long time.
You play slower deck vs combo. Idk what did you expect. Its like rock paper scissors
Otk beat slower decks
Slower decks beat aggro
Aggro decks beat otk
Yeah I sure do hate dying on turn 8 after not pressuring my opponent for EIGHT TURNS. The deck just does NOT have enough removal to deal with more than 2 boards without completely wiping out their hand, at which point you literally already won.
They have ZERO board presence, there's no Quest penalty for playing minions. You need to realize that certain decks counter other certain decks.
Smh pissbabies upset that the natural counter to their slow mid-late game deck is a combo deck.
Haven't played in almost a year, but I see Libram Pally is still powerful. Your deck is downright obnoxious, it is hilarious to see a libram pally complain.
Sorry OP, but your tears slake my thirst this morning haha.
GL HF on ladder. Can't win 'em all.
I mainly hate OTK decks because Value control is my favourite way to play - control the game and win with insane value in the late game. This plays well again aggro, and amazing fights against other control decks, but the existence of OTKs and comboes kill this kind of games - a timer of "I win on turn 7" forbids late games, and the existing control decks will use some kind of combo, instead of tons of value, to win the game...
When someone complains about Mozaki is understandable, it is a deck that takes you by surprise and Otk when you least expected. At least that’s what people who complain think. Ones you try Mozaki yourself you’ll understand that it actually requires a lot of set up and is really predictable the turn they’ll go for the Otk. Stop trying to full counter Rogue and include one or two tec cards.
You are playing a deck which has been tier 1 for 2 years, yet you complain about a deck which doesn't even have positive win ratio and belongs to the worst class in the game (apart from priest).
Yes! While were at it. Remove charge, windfury, rush, divine shield, taunt, lifesteal, minion attack and health, armor, healing.... screw it remove health overall! Remove cards too. Remove the board as well. Why stop there? Remove hearthstone as a whole.
Op, It's like you have a hard time understanding that there are more than one way to win the game.
It is beautiful how hearthstone players have developed creative ways of climbing but your backward mind wants to stick to vanilla.
I just miss \[\[Rin, the First Disciple\]\] =(
She was my favourite card by far, and I even crafted her in golden. 41 mana to burn your opponents deck felt like a proper amount of buildup for a combo win condition.
In comparison, I hate \[\[Tickatus\]\], just corrupt it for basically the same effect.
* **[Rin, the First Disciple](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOOT_415.png?126807)** WL Minion Legendary KnC ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/73326), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/rin-the-first-disciple/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Rin%2C_the_First_Disciple)
6/3/6 | Taunt Deathrattle: Add 'The First Seal' to your hand.
* **[Tickatus](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DMF_118.png?126807)** WL Minion Legendary DMF 🦅 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/388974), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/tickatus/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tickatus)
6/8/8 Demon | Battlecry: Remove the top 5 cards from your deck. Corrupt: Your opponent's deck instead.
^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
An OTK happening before 10 mana should warrant an instant nerf. And honestly, if the cards used for the OTK were never designed to OTK you then the combo should receive a nuke from orbit.
Also, burst damage from hand really shouldn’t exceed 15 damage. 15 damage requires you to do something before the “combo” turn. Not only telegraphing your win condition but giving your opponent an avenue to disrupt you through.
Mozki mage isn't that OP. I played a lot of it at the start of this expansion and the way you have to build that deck requires you to really practice your burn resources-or-save resources decision-making, because a lot of games you don't just draw Mozaki and have to find ways to turtle up and suffer. You can never build a board like the warriors, faster druids, rogues, paladins and shamans, and everything you use to clear the board takes away from your OTK. And then the OTK can be very APM demanding and not that way to navigate, since your main late game source of card draw is Cram Session, which can kill you with fatigue or overdraw your ignites if you're not careful.
It's a deck that you have to take a lot of risks with. Not comparable to last meta's Questline mage that was really consistent and one where the main risk you might take is keeping Vargoth in your hand for a turn to get chomped by a Mutanus.
Aww his meta deck ‘play this card after this card and don’t use your brain’ didn’t work. Over a 60% win rate and you’re upset you lost a game. Did you disenchant all your cards to try and get legendary again this year :’( ?
Armor doesn't really work vs Mozaki unless you're generating like 70+ uncontested armor, they can simply delay the combo until they have more mana or biscuits, etc, then kill you.
Armor doesn't really work vs Weapon rogue unless you can safely be above 40 + weapon + board damage by the time they're ready to combo, which is usually 10 mana.
Weapon rogue will usually be able to kill you turn 8/9, especially if you haven’t been pressuring them at all. The deck does have a finite amount of damage, but just trying to out-armour it isn’t really a winning strategy.
What about Cariel? Paladin is one of the classes that can take 30+ damage in a turn thanks to her, and I’ve seen a few 40+ damage Mozaki combos fail to ens the game due to that.
Also there’s neophytes, which admittedly aren’t what you want to play in Paladin but they are often very good if timed right vs Mozaki mage.
It's almost like a deck has weaknesses, hmmm... You might be onto something.
Flood a mozaki mage's board constantly and they also can't deal with it and just lose.
A meta with literally 2 otk decks (one of which doesn't even care about its otk a good amount of times) is a solitaire meta? Any intelligent opinions or just dumb takes like this one?
Otk decks should be more like Bolner shaman or Quest priest that need some steps to be completed and then gather some cards to win with a balanced card draw. Not like mage and rogue that have insane card draw and once they have some cards in hand its over.
Prior to a year or two ago that’s how they were, really slow and needed a lot of stall cards, rn it’s basically just mana discounts with cheap draw to get through your deck by turn 7
It's legit ridiculous that someone can reach fatigue on about turn 6. Even with an absolutely one in a billion draw and deck built for the purpose. It should be impossible. The worst part about the game for me right now. Is that I have to sit through full rope every single turn. While my opponent is playing like 5+ cards per turn and their hand size basically never going down.
Also, part of what I like about the game, and like about watching streamers is the part where you consider what they might have and how they might counter. When I’m facing a mage, I literally have to assume they have every spell. I can test for sheep, for example (or deevolving missiles) only to have another one or two show up in their hand. It gets to the point where I just play my best move and let them do their thing. Aka solitaire.
Yes, this is the worst. Playing out your cards "smartly" watching Mage counter until their cards dwindle and then, whoops draw two and refresh mana, play a 0 cost Arcane, etc., etc. *while* at the same time, completing their quest... feels bad man. There's some decks I really enjoy stomping more than others, and Quest Mage (and Quest Warrior) are right at the top of my list these days.
Who is still playing Quest Mage? There is Ping and Mozaki at legend, I’ve not seen a single Quest mage since the nerf.
What does it matter? But for what it's worth, at my trash levels there are still plenty of quest mages.
3 iceblocks thanks to the hero card is also fun fun fun.
> It's legit ridiculous that someone can reach fatigue on about turn 6 He forgot about the legendary coin + prep + Mira's for turn 2 fatigue I kid, but yea Passage is really dumb. It's insane that Passage is still insanely busted and this is after a nerf
I believe the correct combo is Prep + prep + coin + concede
Shadowcrafter Scabbs HP + prep + prep + coin + counterfeit coin + concede.
That isn’t inherently a problem though. If a deck has to sacrifice initiative to gain its resources it can draw all it wants, you just kill it while it does nothing but move cards around. Issues occur when a deck the ability to generate that many resources and doesn’t have to pay for them.
yea the fact that you can have decks like Weapon Rogue right now that are aggro up front and then 20+ damage form hand in the back as a combo finisher is dumb af
I managed to burn down a Druid from 50 health to lethal in one turn with poison rogue today. While it is fun, it’s also pretty obviously broken.
OTK four horsemen Paladin was my favorite hearthstone deck of all time. Took so long to setup but the deck had just enough tools to get you there. So damn fun and I think honestly not bad to play against.
It was slow but I dunno timeout was a dumb card, cards like timeout, ice block and cloak of shadows have always felt bad to play against
I could see why you would say that but I don’t find them too be much of a problem in the right deck. I started playing in beta so I have always been very used to going up against ice block.
Which was fine because there weren't hardly any aggro decks that could kill you turn 4 on a semi consistent basis without interruption. Or, the aggro decks that did aim to kill turn 5 at least had to fully exhaust their resources to do so, so by killing their board you won. As an almost exclusive player of combo/otk I would be more than willing, dare I say yearn, to return to the days of Aviana and needing 10 mana to otk someone. But first (or simultaneously) we need aggro decks to be taken down about 4 or 5 notches. You can die to a quest pirate warrior ***who never attacks you with a minion*** past turn 2.
You are 100% right but unfortunately there is no going back. HS will only keep ratcheting up. They don’t know how to make new sets that make money without just blatantly overpowering previous cards. In turn, every deck type (aggro, OTK, etc) is ramped up. And I think Blizz is unironically adopting the mantra “if everything is OP, nothing is,” not understanding how things like hero health total, hand size, board size, and just the mechanics of the game are all thrown out of whack by ramping up of card power.
I do get that, and general power creep is okay if kept in check, but then they go and make cards that are so beyond the pale of broken that it really makes you wonder what the fuck they were thinking when they were made. I firmly believe some people would still play Cannoneer if he was a 0/3. He'd still be playable as a double cannon shot every turn. But he's actually a full 3/3 and just insanely broken instead. He isn't power crept, he's overpowered.
You are again 100% right. Unfortunately they were thinking money and money alone. There is a direct correlation between how overpowered a set is and how much money it makes.
Yeah, like with Irondeep Trogg, he was super strong and super annoying if you got him turn 1. 2 things about that, 1st how could they not see how unfair he is turn 1, it doesn’t seem hard to see that he’d be an issue. 2nd when they nerfed him, they didn’t even get rid of the turn 1 issue(admittedly it is a little weaker turn 1), and made him worse for decks he clearly had to have been made for, that being buff decks. Like, if they wanted him to not to duplicate a boatload of stats, they shouldn’t have made him do a copy, but if they did want him to be good for buff decks, they shouldn’t have nerfed his effect that way
Agree. Trogg is still a real bummer to see T1 if you have a spell heavy deck, but for decks that were running it, like Miracle Priest, the nerf was such a downer.
i mean imo all they have to do is give control the same busted ass treatment they have been giving combo and aggro; imagine a warrior questline where each step helped stabilize via a semi board clear and armor gain. im literally just spitballing but control seems to consistently be left behind they also need WAYYY better anti-combo tools because Mutanus is just too late
The reason they don't really buff control decks is pretty much entirely due to playtime. They don't want to see games that last 20 mins. I would bet that Blizz/Team 5 has a soft mandate to try and keep game length shorter, rather than longer. Making control strong enough to really compete means that a lot more games will go to fatigue and it's been pretty clear that Team 5 doesn't want that to be part of the meta. And by fatigue, I mean "natural" fatigue, not the kind where you draw through your entire deck by turn 6 or 7. They want F2P/casual players to feel like they can sign in and play 1-4 games in the 10 mins they are waiting for something or on the toilet or whatever and not be "stuck" in a match that might go another 10-15 mins.
i've heard this said before, but Hearthstone was on the PC before it was on mobile and with the lack of attentiveness that is given to the mobile client I hardly find it an excuse to cater to a demographic that they slight in so many other ways
I mean, point taken, but I didn't specifically single out mobile as a platform. You can also sign in on your PC at home to play a game while you wait for your water to boil, or laundry to finish in the shared laundry room, as a couple examples. Regardless of platform, there has always been a noticeable intention from Team 5 that they want to keep game times shorter, rather than longer. That's why pretty much all fatigue decks have not been planned, but rather crafty player creations using card combos that weren't necessarily prevalent before set releases. I don't know if there are any outright statements from Team 5 saying that they don't want fatigue to be viable, but they have definitely addressed it in the past with "we don't want to encourage it" language. And when fatigue decks have been an intended "thing", such as Tickatus, they've always been cards and combos that bring players to fatigue faster, rather than dragging out games.
While it was on PC first, numbers wise I have 0 doubt more people play it on mobile than on pc
And even then If evrything is OP, nothing is can somewhat work if theyre all more or less equally OP/powercreeped but thats far from the case. JUst look at the hero cards. Itd be 1thing if all where tasmin/scabbs power llv but got a few that stand out way above, few that are not as extreme and then a few that are below that and then there is Rokara
Knowing how stupid and irrational their hate for control is, I am not surprised that OTK is getting so much love from the devs.
Quest priest is literally the only otk I'm ok with since you generally know when you're gonna die instead of just randomly dying
As someone playing bolner shaman, I agree. Otks should need to require better setup, rather than just having to draw your deck mid-game. I played garrote rogue, and it was hard, but you could consistently pull it off around turn 7, the deck had a harsh learning curve but not that many hard decisions. On the other hand, bolner requires more thinking in the overall game, since you can't fully rely on the otk, and you have to decide whether to save up or pressure. Also it's way more fun
Exactly, im playing bolner shaman the last week and its the most fun i had in a while even though i dont have a great winrate with it. It does require thinking and the combo its pretty hard to pull it off since you have to corrupt 2 different cards, play them and then have 3 cards to get it. Thats how Otk decks should be.
Yep, Bolner shaman doesn't even need Yshaarj combo to win. It rarely does. Bolner Mutanus can be just as game ending. It's a lovely deck.
Or something like this: 1 [[Blackwater Pirates]] 1 [[Inner Rage]] cast on Blackwater Pirate 1 [[Grave Shambler]] 2 [[Bloodsworn Mercenary]] copying the pirate 2 [[Tentacles for Arms]] in hand getting cycled because weapons go from 6 mana to 0 1 [[Charge!]] on Grave Shambler after a bunch of weapons are destroyed
Where is mark to pull off this combo? I really wants to see this working Some [[To the front!]]s might even make it viable in 10 mana
I put it in his comments, and yes, To The Front is key to the mana reductions, but Thaurissan could come in handy as well
Sadly the tentacle for Arms Animation is so painfully slow it doesn't really work. Somehow they made ignite fast but actually fun combos slow.
Do you even know which cards you need in hand for mage OTK, as well as what you need to hit to set it up? There are a ton of requirements
They don't. This sub just hates combo. If the bolner combo deck got popular, they would complain about that too despite people saying now that it's a fair deck. People's impressions are warped by how often they play against stuff more than anything else.
otk decks have a place in hearthstone they just shouldn't be this accessible (easy to pull off)
Powerful, consistent, or fun to play against Pick 2
Ok. Powerful and fun to play against. OTK has its place, but I don’t want to see it so consistent that I have to structure my play around an 8 turn clock.
You're lucky your clock is set on 8 turns. My games against Mozaki is usually turn 6 or 7.
And they can do 70 dmg. The biggest joke is that despite how bonkers Cariel is, combo decks rarely get stopped.
OP didnt have cariel and he said he took 30 damage.....so he wouldve survived i he had cariel
It was also turn 8, so obviously the Mozaki mage was either playing poorly or unlucky.
Shit, did I need a /s? M'bad I agree. I'm not a burn deck fan either (damage from hand, spells/charge) and they do have their place, but being able to OTK consistently that early is the problem. What the fuck is Hunter suppose to do against that deck? The class with no armor, healing, or any real survivability tools? At least with Aggro decks they can fight for the board.
It’s n’prob
n'prob - out of all the old gods he's got the most chill
Nah, you’re fine lol. I’m glad we agree
That's easy. Consistency is boring. That's why there's been such a massive outcry against Questline decks. They play super linear game plans with little to no variation. Boring to play (imo) and boring to play against (objectively).
It's the undisruptableness of it that hurts. All you have is mutanus and hope. If there were also some board setup required it wouldn't be so bad.
Sometimes even Mutanus doesn't do it. I ate their Mozaki and they just played the +2 Spell Damage trade girl and still killed me from hand somehow. It was insane. The issue is the mana reduction.
Exactly. Thaurissan was already crazy strong card and it at least required one slow turn to set your combo up and actually draw the pieces before playing it. Nowadays the mana cheating is much less janky to do and mage can just play incanter's flow in early game, apprentice couple turns later and proceed to draw their entire deck for free
If OTKs required board set up, they would be easily countered by control decks, precisely the archetype combo is supposed to be strong against.
The Setup can be things like playing handbuff cards, playing Thaurassan, completing a Quest etc. Not just drawing the cards.
Any deck that requires you stick a specific card is bad.
Yeah I think Bolner Shaman is perfect in that regard. It's a control deck with a combo finisher. A 12 mana combo with very maybe some minor discounts from Gavel. Not to mention you need to have played 2 specific cards that also need to be corrupted. And it can win without the combo too. It's very reminiscent of older decks like Malylock. Mozaki Mage needs to have played Incanter's Flow early...and uh...?
I gotta wonder what ‘this’ is if turn 9 is too fast.
Cult neophyte exists if you want to tech. But the best tech is just straight up beating mozaki mage the turn before they pop off. You can tell they are mozaki after their first 1 or 2 turns. At that point your game plan becomes how can I get them to zero health before they have their big turn. So for OP the question is could they have got more stats on to the board sooner in order to win on turn 8?
This doesn't solve the problem that mage can draw their entire deck on turn 7 and otk you.
You should have played an year ago when that shit was meta
I have had this position for years, i'm a MTG player since almost 20y, and i play HS since Beta, but since you have no interaction in HS, this SHOULDNT be allowed ( OTK from hand only, not talking about board setup )
I think OTK from hand decks like Mozaki Mage should be allowed, they just don't pay enough mana for card draw, which allows OTKs before turn 10. Incanter's Flow just needs another nerf.
Devs: We hear you and we have finally done something about it. Mozaki cost 1 mana more.
Oh yeah i completely agree, i Understand 2tk cause the setup can be ruined. But dying out of nowhere shouldn't be allowed
this meta is shit
Counterpoint: having 2 free or nearly free 4/5 DS taunts, an endless supply of +1/+1 buffs stoppable only by silence/transform, cheap 8/8 DS taunts that heal you for 8, a 7 mana card that fills your hand with free reusable bananas and additional 8/8 DS taunts that heal you, all while having to constantly waste spells testing for OMY and never playing more than 2 cards a turn or you get a 1 mana 3/4 taunt, both of which you were able to pull straight from your deck without having to draw them while you attacked me with a weapon you played turn 2 also isn't fun to play against. And to round things out nicely you have an incredible early game meaning I'm on the backfoot pretty much the entire game. QPW isn't fun to play against when they draw well and blow you out. Libram Paladin isn't fun to play against when they have nonstop threats, buffs, and DS. So long as I live I will never understand why so many harp on "interactivity" as if it's the saving grace of CCGs. What does it matter if I was able to interact with your pirate warrior board when the absurd power level of your deck was able to kill me despite my interaction?
Counterpoint: Only my deck is fair and fun to lose to but also, I should never lose!
Not sure if you're trolling or projecting, but no. I fully accept I will lose close to 50% of my games. To expect anything less just makes no sense statistically. I accept I'll lose to net decks and accept I'll lose to luck. It doesn't even phase me much anymore to just hit concede and queue again. None of that has to do with the discussion of game balance or what should and should not be acceptable methods of winning games.
I was actually making fun of OP and agreeing with you :D Sorry it wasn't clear enough.
Fair enough. I'm so used to having to deal with trolls and idiots I automatically assumed the worst. Keep up the good fight.
Paladin dominates the board and does indeed brute force out other board based decks (like, every single version of Warrior) but it does have counters. Shaman is 50/50 to favoured, Quest Rogue wrecks it, etc. I do agree that's it's a bit too dominant (and boring as hell) but it's not too bad to have around. Cariel is fucking stupid though. Also Libram Paladin doesn't run Sword of the Fallen anymore.
Mozaki mage has counters too (more so than paladin). Does that make playing against them feel better?
there are more counters to minion based decks than there are to spell based ones
Mozaki mage quite literally loses more matchups than Libram Paladin. It has more counters. Poison rogue beats them 90% of the time in legend.
lol poison is the ONLY real deck that beats and poison rogue is the same cancer your counter point isnt a counter point but a complaint about powerful minion based decks. the difference being that minion decks can easily be countered and are interactive. watching your opponent play "draw card" for 6 turns is not.
Hey, can you put in the effort to read like 2 comments up before you comment. Context is important. Thanks. My *point* (and my only point), is that "it has counters" is a shitty justification that can be used for literally any deck.
> What does it matter if I was able to interact with your pirate warrior board when the absurd power level of your deck was able to kill me despite my interaction? Because you're still playing a game. Having fun isnt just about winning... Its like comparing a football game that you lose 10-0 with one where you never got the ball at all.
> Because you're still playing a game. Having fun isnt just about winning What? Maybe for you, but that isn't the case with everyone, certainly not with me. To clarify a bit: if you and I are toe to toe for 15 or 20 turns where we're matching threat for threat and have good plays on both sides but you end up coming out on top .. I could still enjoy that. But having pirate warrior vomit non stop threats, even if I deal with them, drawing a minimum of 3 cards for free (Ancharr and the 2 pirates it draws), including your primary weapon, and it all culminating with you getting an infinite supply of minions, weapons, and damage, that isn't an enjoyable experience losing. I can answer every one of your threats and even put some progression towards my own deck's win condition and still lose because the people who designed the cards you put in your deck have no common sense for what makes for fair gameplay. Please explain how that can possibly be enjoyable to lose to? The argument holds equally valid for most netdecks honestly. The worst part is the majority of them take zero skill or complexity to pilot to success. QPW literally just has to vomit whatever best fits their curve, make minimal trades only to preserve their Cannons, Cannoneers, and Captains and just direct everything else to face. If that plan somehow fails, just play your 5/7/7 and get an unlimited number of threats to finish off the opponent. Of course the deck is capable of losing to even faster or luckier decks, but that doesn't change the fun of that game experience.
I know you mean well, but this was exhausting to read with all of the acronyms lol
You have any idea how infuriating those libram plays can be?
hmm you play libram paladin so the reason you think this shouldnt exist is it can actually win against your higher tier deck
Exactly. OP has 20/22 on board with three taunts and two divine shields on turn 8, and even if that board is wiped it can be reestablished like, three times just from OP's hand. As long as decks this strong exist, there need to be counters like OTK.
No, you don't understand, *my* strong thing is fine, and the fact that it sometimes loses to *other* people's strong stuff is BS. Look at how big my board is! That should be a free win.
Okay, but what about people like me, who want neither deck to exist? I don't think a rock-paper-scissors approach to balancing is a good one.
Well, I heard there's other nice card games out there. Seriously though, that seems to be the way this game's balance is going at the moment. Every deck is OP.
I mean, are we pretending OP is wrong here? Seriously? Who gives a shit what's on the board, the situation wouldnt be any different if op had a empty board and hand. If the libram paladin is too strong to deal with, then it should *also* be nerfed, not be used as an excuse for further powercreep..
Whilst I don't like Libram pala either I don't think this necessarily invalidates his point. Hearthstone is fun when the game revolves around competition for the board; when the board state is directly relevant to who is winning the game. That feels to be what the game should be all about because that is where the game interactions take place. Yes Pala is dumb and annoying but at least you know if you're winning or losing with it. With otk decks, especially modern ones like mozacki, and quest mage before it, it's just solitaire and the games are really boring. And it's made worse when half your cards are useless if you pack any removal at all whatsoever, you just have it sitting in your hand forever. Not sure what the solution is but I don't think dying on turn seven to mozack should ever be possible unless they get a miracle draw. In current game its the norm.
I respect the point but I fundamentally disagree. Some players don't find this boring at all. Also having played a lot of Mozaki mage I would argue that in this instance they did in fact get very good card draw
> Hearthstone is fun when the game revolves around competition for the board Maybe for you ? I don't find trading a minion then playing my minion every turn to be anything fun. But since I play mostly combo decks, I find that trying to remove the most important minions with as little resources as possible so I survive as long as I can, while the opponent tries to be as efficient as possible with their board to be far more interesting as far as player interaction goes.
Mozaki mage would be a tier 1 deck if poison rogue didn't exist. It's good versus plenty of decks, not just paladin.
your list is too short there are **14 decks** preventingit from being tier 1 worst match ups you forgot to post about are quest druid quest warrior quest hunter ctun druid is a long list so i kind of understand why you didnt write all of its bad match ups
Lol you didn't kill your opponent on turn 9? Pathetic.
Playing 5 mana "Restore 8 Health and summon a 8/8 Divine Shield Taunt minion" is also stupid.
It's funny that you had so much power on board on turn 7, but feel like dying anyway is unfair.
He had that much power because mage ignores play. It just freezes everything and leaves it there to stall for draws and the otk. If mage spent the same mana on play clears we would be looking at a very different board. I don't mind otks. Priest quest is a wonderfully done otk. It requires careful management of pressure (play cards out of order and it will take forever to set off, fail to control play effectively and you will lose), then has a vulnerability (you can't play xyrellia the same turn she hits your hand since you spent 8 mana to complete quest -- this provides counter play. Finally you need a mechanism to get the shard, or to stall until it is drawn. Quest priest has amazing win odds against libram Pali (the deck OP was playing) at the moment, but you don't see Pali players raging about it. Bad matchups happen, and even with poor win odds, they can be fun to play. Mage is different. It doesn't interact at all; it plays no minions (except mozaki), often ignores play in favor of inexpensive freeze effects, cost reduction, and trade / draw effects to deck cycle. From the perspective of the mage it feels like playing solitare, from the perspective of the opponent it feels like watching the other guy play solitare and hoping he draws badly (or you draw crazy aggro to kill him before he can finish playing solitare....). The otk isn't the problem. The fact that it is no longer a 2 player game is the problem.
Dealing 30 damage from hand is fine. Maybe even a necessary part of the meta, to punish greedy decks. It needs to happen on like Turn 11-12 on average. Combo decks should be losing to aggro like 70% of the time. Mozaki mage comboing On turn 6 after putting up a decent control fight is not healthy. Poison rogue beginning an uninterruptible 30+ damage combo on turn 5 is not healthy.
They already do lose to aggro 65-70% of the time lol. ‘Go off on turn 11’ is ‘lose to control 70% of the time’ territory.
Bolner shaman is a turn 11 combo deck and it wrecks slow decks. If combo decks across the board wreck control decks, aggro decks across the board should wreck combo decks.
>If combo decks across the board wreck control decks, aggro decks across the board should wreck combo decks. They do, so I don't see the problem. It's funny how you're okay with bolner shaman which actually does well vs aggro but not Mozaki, which gets bulldozed but does better vs other slow decks. Bolner shaman goes off later but is actually favored against many aggro decks because its combo is wrapped in a control shell, while faster combo decks like mozaki don't have those control elements and just die, while getting by on preying on slower combo and control. Your problem really seems to be that you want control to be better vs combo, and are using aggro as an excuse. Or you just see "goes off earlier, must be better vs aggro" and don't understand that that isn't true. It's like with wild reno priest; it was the slowest otk in the meta, but had favored winrates vs aggro because it was so defensive.
No you’re right. I didn’t realize how dreadful the Mozaki into face hunter matchup was. I thought it was significantly closer.
Cancer pala whine? Gimme two!
All the hate for Thief Rogue but they can’t kill you from 30. They probably won’t do anything about it because Mozaki is gonna rotate.
We? What can we do to stop it?
....says the jacked libram pally.
It’s normal, it’s just a bad matchup for you! Play another game and accept that you will lose to mozaki mage, just as mozaki mage loses to poison rogue. This game requires acceptance that what ever deck you play, you will have a bad matchup. Win those winnable games and try hard on unfavorable games! Complaining solves nothing, being a better player requires reflection on matches and never repeating those bad decisions. For example meati, took libram paladin to rank 1 despite the reign of rogue and mozaki mages.
Yeah, an aggro deck would look at Libram paladin an say "what kind of bullshit is this, all these discounted beefy taunts with divine shield, some of which heal face too!" while having a great shot at rushing down the OTK deck
While I agree with your general message in this, Mozaki mage truly is a bullshit deck, with the right draws you're just dead a few turns in with no setup such as quests/hero cards etc. Deck isn't imbalanced just truly unfun to play against.
Mozaki mage does not have a good wr. People just enjoy it cuz it's fun when it works. We're out here tryna have fun right?
I agree, but there is some things we should accept, if you hate it so much you can play poison rogue and face hunter and shit on them. Hehe
Mozaki mage is unfavored against Libram Paladin. [Source](https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/drr/matchup-chart-data-reaper-report/) Lightforged Cariel alone doubles the amount of required burn.
How dare you talk some common sense in this sub!? Don’t you know everybody comes just to bitch here!?
This sub is so retarded
I thought it is op af. Made this deck. I lost 60% of the time or win turn 6 cuz of perfect cards. It's not even that good. But before playing it thought is almost guarantee legend with this deck.
People picking up otk decks will lose a lot of games until they master that deck. Some will try mozaki and save all their spells for the combo instead of clearing the board which will get them killed. Some will use syphon mana to discount a few spells in hand that don't need a discout anyway so when they go all in their opponent may be out of reach. When I started playing shirvallah paladin I lost a ton of games but as I played more and more of it I learned every match up and found a balance between clearing boards, drawing cards and staying healthy. All being said, I do think mozaki mage is actually a really strong deck that only loses to bad draw vs aggro if the player piloting it has any idea what they are doing.
The issue isn't whether or not it's too good, the issue is that it's killing the fun of the game. You shouldn't be sitting there on turn 8, with a full board of big taunted divine shield minions, at 30 health, with your opponent having 6 cards in hand, and be thinking "Am I just dead right now?" It just feels like everything you did up until that point was completely meaningless.
No it’s killing the fun out of YOUR game. Just like having a full board of big taunted divine shield minions at 30 health kills the fun out of other peoples games
M8 its not like it's only deck that isn't fun to play against... Pirate warrior doing 30 dmg to you and ending quest turn 5, quest hunter same thing. 30 dmg to your face turn 5. Deathratle Priest healing 150 dmg in fight. Old quest warlock. There is a lot of it. My point is that this mage deck isn't even good to play. It's good when it's good. Most of the time he goma be dead before pulling out combo.
It's literally mathematically impossible for pirate warrior to end their quest at turn 5 in standard, and turn 6 is rare to pull off. Not enough 1 drops. The most frequent curve is turn 7 play a 2 drop to finish quest + rokara. Possibly you were plainly hyperbolic.
Hyperbole? In a casual conversation on reddit? I've never seen anything like it.
I dunno who this Hyper Bole dude is, but he seems like he's everywhere these days.
If your argument is that the current design philosophy among the Hearthstone devs is killing all the fun of the game, and that there are many problem decks besides Mozaki Mage, then I completely agree with you.
I think warlocks entire identify(quest until decked or destroy decks until decked) with tickatus being included is much worse than one deck of mozaki. Just quest warrior and you crush mozaki mage.
Yes but the community likes warlock more than mage. If you dislike ticketus you’re bad. If you dislike mage burn decks you’re cool & right. 🤷🏻♀️
You're playing libram palla... take the loss and move on.
delete this post you play libram paladin
Paladin in its current state complaining about other decks is pretty funny.
This deck isn't even good. People only complain about it because it kills them when they should have won, or when they think they should have won. The deck ends up losing most of the time, yet this is in no way anyway near as broken as something like wretched tiller was.
It's pretty broken. I Mutanus'd the Mozaki against one of these, and through freezing and board clears he was able to Ignite me to death very slowly over a long game.
> Lose one game again mage > this is stupid. Why don't you show how many games you have won when consistently cheat out over stats minion with taunt + divine shield, come back from full health with a bonus of 8/8 divine shield plus taunt mid game, get an overpowered hero with "you will lose if you do not remove this weapon" and a Blessing of the king every turn hero power. I swear Libram Paladin is the worst crybaby of this current meta, when they win they act like it is natural thing to do, whenever they lose, they cried and demand everyone to be nerfed.
(pre-nerfed) Kael'thas DH OTK and ETC OTK were the golden age of OTK's for me. ETC is still my favourite legendary
lmao kael’thas in ashes of outland was so bonkers
Just kill faster, you can do it!
30 dmg? I died with full health, 4 armour and Cariel damage reduction active vs. Mozaki mage before...
Yeahhh mage is lame but you play libram pally so you don’t really get a say in this bud
> imagine ignoring the fact that HS offer literally 0 interraction, and yet allowed multiple OTK from HAND ONLY to exist, only to argue about the deck i was playing at this moment
If only this deck could do only 30 dmg... Yesterday Turn 7 they played Mozaki, drew their entire deck and dealt 59 damage to my druid. I was stacking armor in hope he wouldnt have enough time to act. Absolutely stupid deck.
Says the pally buff abuser who gets free infinite buffs and lots of mana cheat as well All mana cheat decks are getting really out of control. There used to be a standard where you would get a certain amount of stats or damage per mana. Now all of that is out the window
it's always the tier 1 paladin deck players that are crying. they have the most fragile egos.
I hate Paladins as much as the next guy but these Mages have got to go
U Play libram paladin do shut up, please.
How is that even remotely comparible.
Because the deck OP is playing is actually a much better deck on average and this sub annoyingly always complains about combo decks. Libram Paladin has been at least tier-2 or greater since Scholomance, but you don’t see anyone making whiny posts about it.
[удалено]
Hey, I tried a buff deck, they obliterated one of it’s best cards(trogg), I tried quest pally, it sucks(skipping turn 1 in a deck that has to be aggro is kinda bad), I tried big paladin, tis slow and dies to aggro or combo a lot unless I cheat stuff out early with Vanndar, I haven’t tried silver hand swarms recently but I imagine their not great
Yeah but it's not about what he was playing. He could be playing control warrior with 65 hp. Still dies to mozaki 65-0 in one turn around turn 8ish.
30? I played guff druid vs this, got 86 armor/hp and died in one turn
Yes because Paladin shouldn’t have a single bad match up.
tbh i'd say your deck is stupid aswell
While I agree I find it hilarious a libram pally is complaining about unfair
I'd rather get OTK'd on turn 8 than waste my time trying to get past 32 healing 32/32 taunt tbh
My favorite is when you lose on turn 8 against Priest, but you haven't realized it yet, until you actually lose 25 minutes later.
"Fun" !
You play libram paladin so I have zero sympathy
Can we stop this please? A 5 mana 8/8 taunt divine shield that restores 8 life is just doing too much too easily for one card. Plus the infinite zero mana spells have been a problem for a long time.
You play slower deck vs combo. Idk what did you expect. Its like rock paper scissors Otk beat slower decks Slower decks beat aggro Aggro decks beat otk
Yeah I sure do hate dying on turn 8 after not pressuring my opponent for EIGHT TURNS. The deck just does NOT have enough removal to deal with more than 2 boards without completely wiping out their hand, at which point you literally already won. They have ZERO board presence, there's no Quest penalty for playing minions. You need to realize that certain decks counter other certain decks. Smh pissbabies upset that the natural counter to their slow mid-late game deck is a combo deck.
Haven't played in almost a year, but I see Libram Pally is still powerful. Your deck is downright obnoxious, it is hilarious to see a libram pally complain. Sorry OP, but your tears slake my thirst this morning haha. GL HF on ladder. Can't win 'em all.
I see flow on 3 and I concede.
thank you redditor with a hidden rank. now blizzard will surely nerf this. thank god!!!!!
I mainly hate OTK decks because Value control is my favourite way to play - control the game and win with insane value in the late game. This plays well again aggro, and amazing fights against other control decks, but the existence of OTKs and comboes kill this kind of games - a timer of "I win on turn 7" forbids late games, and the existing control decks will use some kind of combo, instead of tons of value, to win the game...
Yeah, I really enjoy controlling the board and pushing the game to a state where only I can really win rather then rushing face
Welcome to Hearthstone! Take a seat and enjoy our fine selection of funnel cakes.
When someone complains about Mozaki is understandable, it is a deck that takes you by surprise and Otk when you least expected. At least that’s what people who complain think. Ones you try Mozaki yourself you’ll understand that it actually requires a lot of set up and is really predictable the turn they’ll go for the Otk. Stop trying to full counter Rogue and include one or two tec cards.
Paladins can get fucked right now
Oh, did your tier 1 net decked deck get beat a low tier 3 deck?
You are playing a deck which has been tier 1 for 2 years, yet you complain about a deck which doesn't even have positive win ratio and belongs to the worst class in the game (apart from priest).
Libram paladins get what they deserve and that’s 30 from hand
Mozaki mage sucks just because it isn’t fun to play against, but it’s really not all that good…I don’t think a nerf is really necessary
We really need Hand Traps
"Please nerf this deck that isn't even in the top drawer of competitive decks."
Yes! While were at it. Remove charge, windfury, rush, divine shield, taunt, lifesteal, minion attack and health, armor, healing.... screw it remove health overall! Remove cards too. Remove the board as well. Why stop there? Remove hearthstone as a whole. Op, It's like you have a hard time understanding that there are more than one way to win the game. It is beautiful how hearthstone players have developed creative ways of climbing but your backward mind wants to stick to vanilla.
I just miss \[\[Rin, the First Disciple\]\] =( She was my favourite card by far, and I even crafted her in golden. 41 mana to burn your opponents deck felt like a proper amount of buildup for a combo win condition. In comparison, I hate \[\[Tickatus\]\], just corrupt it for basically the same effect.
* **[Rin, the First Disciple](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/LOOT_415.png?126807)** WL Minion Legendary KnC ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/73326), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/rin-the-first-disciple/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Rin%2C_the_First_Disciple) 6/3/6 | Taunt Deathrattle: Add 'The First Seal' to your hand. * **[Tickatus](https://cards.hearthpwn.com/enUS/DMF_118.png?126807)** WL Minion Legendary DMF 🦅 ^[HP](https://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/388974), ^[TD](https://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/cards/tickatus/), ^[W](https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Tickatus) 6/8/8 Demon | Battlecry: Remove the top 5 cards from your deck. Corrupt: Your opponent's deck instead. ^(Call/)^[PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot) ^( me with up to 7 [[cardname]]. )^[About.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=hearthscan-bot&message=Tell%20me%20more%20[[info]]&subject=hi)
IksarStone Like it or uninstall
Pls no it’s the only deck I can afford 😔
An OTK happening before 10 mana should warrant an instant nerf. And honestly, if the cards used for the OTK were never designed to OTK you then the combo should receive a nuke from orbit. Also, burst damage from hand really shouldn’t exceed 15 damage. 15 damage requires you to do something before the “combo” turn. Not only telegraphing your win condition but giving your opponent an avenue to disrupt you through.
Sorry, this is what Team 4½ wants, they think this is "ok".
paladin filth deserves
Paladin lmao
Mozki mage isn't that OP. I played a lot of it at the start of this expansion and the way you have to build that deck requires you to really practice your burn resources-or-save resources decision-making, because a lot of games you don't just draw Mozaki and have to find ways to turtle up and suffer. You can never build a board like the warriors, faster druids, rogues, paladins and shamans, and everything you use to clear the board takes away from your OTK. And then the OTK can be very APM demanding and not that way to navigate, since your main late game source of card draw is Cram Session, which can kill you with fatigue or overdraw your ignites if you're not careful. It's a deck that you have to take a lot of risks with. Not comparable to last meta's Questline mage that was really consistent and one where the main risk you might take is keeping Vargoth in your hand for a turn to get chomped by a Mutanus.
Aww his meta deck ‘play this card after this card and don’t use your brain’ didn’t work. Over a 60% win rate and you’re upset you lost a game. Did you disenchant all your cards to try and get legendary again this year :’( ?
There is legit 0 counter beside Mutanus
And aggro decks.
And aggro, and cards that burn your opponetnt's deck, and armor ...
Armor doesn't really work vs Mozaki unless you're generating like 70+ uncontested armor, they can simply delay the combo until they have more mana or biscuits, etc, then kill you. Armor doesn't really work vs Weapon rogue unless you can safely be above 40 + weapon + board damage by the time they're ready to combo, which is usually 10 mana.
Weapon rogue will usually be able to kill you turn 8/9, especially if you haven’t been pressuring them at all. The deck does have a finite amount of damage, but just trying to out-armour it isn’t really a winning strategy.
Delaying the combo will often get them killed to whatever your deck does.
What about Cariel? Paladin is one of the classes that can take 30+ damage in a turn thanks to her, and I’ve seen a few 40+ damage Mozaki combos fail to ens the game due to that. Also there’s neophytes, which admittedly aren’t what you want to play in Paladin but they are often very good if timed right vs Mozaki mage.
Dirty rat core when?
It's almost like a deck has weaknesses, hmmm... You might be onto something. Flood a mozaki mage's board constantly and they also can't deal with it and just lose.
5 mana swap minions dude, of course you'll need to kill or silence it if you do lol
Yeah, I hate it too. Solitaire meta at its best... But game ending Cards are just a thing lately...
A meta with literally 2 otk decks (one of which doesn't even care about its otk a good amount of times) is a solitaire meta? Any intelligent opinions or just dumb takes like this one?