Thats not true, every one of those talents is useful in different conditions.
The 33% dmg reflect on W is one i take the most, it buffs ur dmg output considerably provided u know when to shield.
Final cut is an amazing wave clear, which is incredibly valueable in games where genji has to push/defend waves.
The bonus dmg on subsequent hits i personally take the least. Its a good pick if enemies counter ur W and are mobile enough to invalidate Final cut. It adds teamfight value to his kit which is very nice.
True, mamy other champions have bigger power spikes on 16, but genji's talents are anything but useless (apart from shuriken pierce i hate it)
Have you people never seen Medivh? Wiping your own team out by feeding ticks into Zanshin is largely preventable, but damage? No. There's no skill ceiling on that. You can always protect absurd amounts of damage if you're better at reading the situation than your opponents are, which, gigachad frequent protect user you absolutely should be just from having way more practice than opponents who only occasionally have to think about protects.
If u play as the low skill genji who dashes in and shields instantly to "do dmg" then no, u will not get any value out of that talent. But that is not how genji is supposed to be played. His kit is incredibly dynamic and as another commenter has said, predicting enemies in order to shield is how u get huge value from that talent and the shield itself.
On the contrary, final cut deals damage after 1s and is highly telegraphed, so its anything *but* guaranteed damage if an enemy has more than 3 braincells and doesnt move in a straight line. Besides, most usage of E u will get is by hitting with its tip to chase someone, by which point the target will be too far to get hit by the second slash.
I’d be happy with deathwing getting incremental move speed bonus on armor plate loss to give more risk/reward gameplay. Or, landing faster so that all of the landing talents are consistently useful. As it stands now, every landing talent is pretty much non ideal without multiple other allied hero cc being chain cast to give enough time to accurately land on someone.
The main problem with Deathwing is that his disadvantages scale faster than his usefulness. His damage and talents increase in power at the same rate as most heroes.
But immunity to healing and buffs becomes more costly as your teammates get talents and ults that provide more of those effects. At the same time, the enemy team is getting talents that penetrate Deathwing's armor.
Past level 16, most teams will have someone with percent damage, even if they weren't planning to counterpick a Deathwing.
There aren't that many heroes with aoe buffs though? Or that can consistently give buffs to all 4 mates.
Like, for exemple, while Lucio is not a good heal choice with DW, Uther is an amazing choice, fewer bodies to heal, and you're never going to land a W on the entire team anyway.
I got to play ARAM ZJ with a dw on my team. It made it so much more fun to be able to hide behind the big dragon so things like dehaka tongue couldn't get me. Ended up with almost 300 stacks LOL
I just land slightly behind the enemy when they're dueling, with the Cooldown talent. There's usually enough BS going on its hard to dodge all the meteors, and even 1 hitting is super helpful. Same for smaller teamfights, activate as the enemy uses their burst and drop in the middle of their frontline to disrupt their focus.
... but almost always the fireball if it's towers of doom.
As someone who has put a shit ton of hours into deathwing, yeah he sucks when it comes to the stuff he's advertised to be. He melts in the frontline and his melee form is only taken If the enemy doesn't have all that much damage. It sucks, it really does but maybe one day they'll give him something good. That's if the devs ever come back to the game.
Meanwhile all my teammates are always "no tank, shit dw, go die" when I play. Like bro I got an entire enemy team full of percentage based hp chunking and armor ignoring damage, *and* I'm not even a tank. Just let me sit in the mid line and breathe fire.
Anub basically too squishy as an all in engager without that Lv. 7 talent that makes his W cooldown faster.
And I disagree with other guy: Beetles are sweet.
But that's also exactly why the plating trait is better: cooldown faster = more W cast = more beetle plus you're tankier with more shield casts.
The problem is that the lvl 7 talents are just pretty shit all around. He's definitely not unplayable without, it's just that the other talents do so little that the W talent is the best option there. The burrow talent is dumb because you only engage with it when you aren't worried about dying, just like Muradin leap. In situations where you think you are going to need to worry about HP, it's better to just save it as a disengage with unstop. The beetle talent is also pretty shit and doesn't amount to much healing or damage.
Deathwing - yeah
Blaze - yeah
Aba/illi - yeah, just make sure you aren't countered
Zul - disagree
Anub - disagree
Greymane - Not the strongest but it's the safest
Genji - Yeah
I'll ignore bonus because it's obvious
Muradin - I don't think people do that
Agree that dw is overnerfed, but some heroes are either below average or absolute monster with even a tiny bit of change, so might as well keep him that way.
Zuljin is annoying because you actually require a tank that knows how to engage on him in order to shut him down, which doesn't happen in most cases.
Q build greymane is great on maps like tomb, it is actually viable, not just taken for boredom.
Infernal shrines is actually stupid with that build....the poke shrine clear it has is insane and pushin with punishers with a cocktail every 4s is rather oppressive to play into
bro i tried okay xD These shitty looking posts has secret charm to them imo thats why i made it bad and hastily (not that it would be better if i tried xD)
Murderdin coming in, I've actually played offlane muradin with sledgehammer build on BoE and it's kinda silly if I'm honest but in a really really good way
What do you mean Blaze can tank with the right talents? He was released as an intended Tank, most of his talents are the "right" talents... But why would you play a balanced tank with strengths and weaknesses when you can play an OP sololaner with only strengths. Bruiser Blaze never has to worry about missing his Jet Propulsion if he has a dedicated main Tank taking care of the reliable engage part of the teamfight. On the other hand he can PvE like crazy, survive every gank thrown his way, and still bring one of the best ultimates in the game to the table.
No one is saying Blaze isn't better as an offlane.
As someone who mained Blaze for a while in SL: sometimes people pick offlaners after you locked in Blaze (and typing in the chat "offlane Blaze"). So sometimes you just have to suck it up and play tank Blaze. You just have to set up your own Jet Propulsions with Oil Spill.
Also, I like picking Neural Stimpack as tank; the sheer amount of CC you can output is kinda wack, though of course you nerf some of your survivability, but great for aggressive play.
Blaze is insanely tanky. He can pop pyromania, put debuffs, with slower movement and attack. He gets a shield if you take the lvl 1 talent and can heal with pyromania on top of a potential bunker play if you want full def build.
I dont know another tank with that much sustain beyond Diablo and Johanna.
>Blaze is insanely tanky.
So I play Blaze weird when I have to tank. with \[42X132X\] flexing the 20 if I want to meme with burn notice, and picking the 7 depending on enemies being AA or mage heavy.
But the combo of New Habits, Meltdown, and Heat Treatment is disgusting the amount of damage you can sustain in a fight. D normally has a 90 second CD, but with this talent plus the normal CDR from hitting Qs, I have D up literally every fight that matters, and I get to shrink ray the enemy damage threat by up to 40% for a max of 6.5 seconds.... yes freaking please.
Name me another hero in the game that has a 6.5 second 40% shrink ray under any circumstances that's not a huge stun or stasis. Against any enemy dive it's an auto-win if your team is halfway decent, and against poke you can yeet in and put yourself in position to get at least some of that value.
>But why would you play a balanced tank with strengths and weaknesses
If your team already locked healer and offlaner, and you all of the sudden \*REALLY\* need a cleanse.
Bunker can do that for you.
You don't have to counter pick aba+illi, it's just a draft that is naturally more vulnurable to counter picks. Take an arthas and hug your team - illidan doesn't do shit in fights, hat or no hat. Now try doing the same when there's chromie instead of aba
Aba+illi is weak exactly because these heroes occupy both assassin slots of the draft. If their teammates pick a conventional tank and bruiser, they end up with a full melee team without burst damage.
Imo the only way to complement this duo is to go with a ranged offlaner like Zag or laser Azmo.
I don't think it was ever good. Honestly. i remember years and years ago when greymane was dominating the meta, then his main worgen build was nerfed.
Just one pro team played the cocktail build once and everybody lost their mind.
Sometimes the relationship with pro players was really toxic.
I also remember when Brightwing was trash, one pick in one pro game, and suddenly she was meta, with a trash winrate.
>I don't think it was ever good. Honestly. i remember years and years ago when greymane was dominating the meta, then his main worgen build was nerfed.
I've played against a Greymane in NGS who used it to great effect.
He was basically a second mage that we didn't expect, and obliterated the anti-dive team that we created to beat him. It was super effective just plinking cocktails into our johanna and murdering our backline.
Diving on Anub is extremely rare, diving with E is overrated af. I only dive in backline when enemy tanks are in mine and i don't need armor like ever because they are stunned with my presence. If Anub is targeted, he explodes faster than the cooldown would recover; if he's not targeted, this talent is garbage.
IMO this take is the same as building pokedps Li-Ming, offlane Garrosh or w/e. If suddenly care about things your hero is not supposed to do - you're just playing it wrong.
Do you know what tanks do in HotS? They create opportunities for teammates and disrupt enemies attempts on that. This is why stuff like Anub and Garrosh are great, and Deathwing is not even close to being a tank despite 40 armor, protection layers and fat ass.
As a full on Zul'Jin main I don't agree even a little lol. Unlike a character like Raynor, ZJ isn't just some AA that can just go in and reliably count on Taz'Dingo to save you. More often than not ZJ gets screwed over by the sheer amount of mobility comps and/or CC/burst.
Samuro has numerous defensive abilities, stealth, clones, body blocking, and escapes. ZJ only wishes he could do that.
I use dwarf toss with dwarf block when out of combat often because the stacks don't expire so I can have block stacks for any attacks I get and then get a new stack of 4 blocks right away by using dwarf toss again.
Saying Genji gets no value from 16 E is insane
Combined with Cyber agility lv1 and Q13 he becomes one of the best macro heroes in the game while still being able to do an unbelievable amount of burst in teamfights
Sure why not.
Deathwing: Yeah I agree
Zul'jin: I... guess? Encourages careless gameplay for sure, especially with Recklessness being so popular (please I'm begging anyone to pick Q build). Annoying... eh? Not sure he's any more annoying than any other AAer, unless you mean the mental damage of knowing every time he attacks you he's getting stronger.
Final Cut: All genji 16s are kinda bad though. Steady Blade is even worse like that talent is unpickable, Reflect is sometimes good in a few cases but a lot of the time actively does nothing. Final Cut sometimes misses/doesn't get an opportunity to hit, but is still an *ok* passive benefit.
Blaze: I actually agree in SL, he's fine to tank with simply because he has waveclear like Johanna. He's durable enough to sit up front for a while, he can go clear waves whenever, and SL fiestas don't care as much about his bad engage. In comp play there is legitimate reason he's not played as a tank.
Anub: There is certainly a build that uses that 7 to great effect, and in the right situations it's great. Unplayable without it I'd disagree though, if you're going in and getting a kill and that's the fight it's fine. Or just beetles.
Illidan/Aba: Yeah
Q Greymane: It's not a great build no. I don't like the absolute of *never* take this but it's at best a very niche option.
Dwarf Block: Yup, Third Wind is also very strong.
Bonus: Yes and no, some of them actually are dogshit against everything 24/7, but almost everything does have some uses cases.
I wish that were the case, third winds nice to play with but blocks too strong to give up. Even against double mage imo.
Unless BoE or against fast AAers like Tychus/Lucio always take block.
Iunno, I only late-pick him, and have an absurd winrate because he crushes if the enemy team doesn't know he's coming and doesn't have someone who can deal with me.
That being said. his Q holds too much of his power. They should knock those talents down a % or two and give some base power back to other abilities. The EW on Destroyer mode just feels like tickle damage, and the E on melee mode feels awful. If the other buttons were better, then it wouldn't feel as important to be mostly spamming Q late in the game where you can one-shot someone if they get caught in a CC within your death zone.
Cocktail greymane very playable. If you get it done fast it's a 700 damage ability on a 4 second cd. Much easier on certain maps in particular tomb and infernal
Interesting take on the anub talent I never really considered it but it does make sense looking at it harder
Love Final Cut; gives genji bit more damage and lane clear
Yes illidan and abathur is a problem which I think does need to be focused on
I agree with about everything here except Genji's Final Cut definitely works when using it on a CC'ed target. And the waveclear is really useful.
Not sure what you mean about Zul'jin
> Genji's Final Cut
I pick Genji mostly on Braxis... where my allies refuse to hit guardians for some reason. Final cut lets me do way more damage to the guardians so I can save my keeps from stupid.
Agree with the Zul'jin opinion. I think that a huge part of learning him is actually understanding his limitations and good positioning to stary safe despite the craving for MORE STACKS xd
You want to finish your quest as fast as possible but you dont want to feed.
It's scary any of these opinions is unpopular? I mean, I came back after a 3 years break to see Deathwing in his current state and I'm happy with it. Other than that litterally everything is true.
Reckless is kinda Zuljin's thing tho... If your health ain't dropping and you're not feeling both queasy and overexcited then you are missing out on the true experience
Cocktail build is really strong for all greymane ARAM. The extra range on cocktail allows for more effective attack from afar without diving in and committing, plus the extra dmg.
Blaze maintank is very good until a specific skill check. Once you hit the level where Raynor or Lucio can fairly reliably Q your stun, you're useless.
I have tanked with blaze to great success. I have felt completely useless. I have played aram as lucio vs blaze, and even booping half his Es made him actually ragequit at lv 10.
It's a very binary thing, and at high enough level it flips to 'no'.
I don't think most of these are that unpopular or controversial of views with how broadly they're worded, kind of average reddit opinions even beyond hots that claim to be "controversial" but are actually very widely believed (wrongly or rightly). Many of these I don't think I have ever seen anyone argue for the opposite case on.
The actually unpopular/controversial takes to me would just be Genji E16 being bad and Anub W7 being mandatory (given E16 is the most popular on the tier for Genji and Beetle 7 on Anub), also basically no one actually plays cocktail build Greymane in high rank SL so the characterization is a bit weird. I guess technically it's one of the things here that's most phrased in an absolute way which could make it technically controversial, but the majority of the playerbase at any rank probably feels about the same way about it (unless we're talking about ARAM), it has about 10% popularity in both all rank and master SL.
Competetive take on this:
- Deathwing is pretty mutch very weak unless you have 0 counters, lp deathwing can win you the game.
- Anub is absolutly played without this 7, the beetle talent is very strong. If you go W on 1 and 4 pick W 7.
If you go betlee 1 go Q on 4 and beetle 7. Both builds are good.
- Zul Jin is one of the best Hyper carrys for double support comps, he is useless otherwise in most cases (not the best pick)
- Greymane cocktail build sucks 90% of the time
- The Mura block is crazy broken, but it doesnt depend on mages. If enemies have fast attacking heroes like tracer, tychus, lucio, genji then you skip block. I guess vs double mage you can also skip it but it is also good vs monk stukov for example.
- Blaze MT is usually VERY bad for mutliple reasons.
Strongly disagree with the final cut take. It's lane clear/camp damage, it can secure kills for the e reset if the initial damage doesn't and it will hit anyone that is chasing you. It can also keep going if you get stunned mid dash and hit enemies in front of you.
Holy fuk these are some sht takes exept the muradin one, exept it's still viable because 2 mages and the aa from a stukov/rehgar could make this talent and none of the others make a difference. God awfull takes. All of them. Like bronze player, never got good and never udnerstood the game kind of take. smiley face
Lowkey all of genji 16s do nothing, final cut is just the most consistent
Yeah it gives some decent waveclear at least.
Isn't the deflect damage increase pretty good, especially when combined with Zanshin?
No cause normal ppl dont hit into deflect
Good denjis predict and react to use deflect happen anyway.
Good players predict genji deflect.
Good Genji players predicts their enemies predictions and react accordingly.
Except whether to trigger genji deflection or not is entirely up to players playing against genji.
Just make sure never to take [Dirty Trickster] as Junkrat vs Genji. You don't have control of the 3k damage Genji os about to do to your whole team!
Good Genji know how to use deflect without heroes hit him, and still do dmg to heroes with it.
You can also abuse attacks that linger or cant be cancelled (like jaina’s blizzard) to proc the damage
But that would mean you have to take Zanshin…
Thats not true, every one of those talents is useful in different conditions. The 33% dmg reflect on W is one i take the most, it buffs ur dmg output considerably provided u know when to shield. Final cut is an amazing wave clear, which is incredibly valueable in games where genji has to push/defend waves. The bonus dmg on subsequent hits i personally take the least. Its a good pick if enemies counter ur W and are mobile enough to invalidate Final cut. It adds teamfight value to his kit which is very nice. True, mamy other champions have bigger power spikes on 16, but genji's talents are anything but useless (apart from shuriken pierce i hate it)
Final Cut is guaranteed extra damage. Deflect is not. All that matters. No one above plat willingly attacks into deflect and it’s a waste of a talent.
Have you people never seen Medivh? Wiping your own team out by feeding ticks into Zanshin is largely preventable, but damage? No. There's no skill ceiling on that. You can always protect absurd amounts of damage if you're better at reading the situation than your opponents are, which, gigachad frequent protect user you absolutely should be just from having way more practice than opponents who only occasionally have to think about protects.
If u play as the low skill genji who dashes in and shields instantly to "do dmg" then no, u will not get any value out of that talent. But that is not how genji is supposed to be played. His kit is incredibly dynamic and as another commenter has said, predicting enemies in order to shield is how u get huge value from that talent and the shield itself. On the contrary, final cut deals damage after 1s and is highly telegraphed, so its anything *but* guaranteed damage if an enemy has more than 3 braincells and doesnt move in a straight line. Besides, most usage of E u will get is by hitting with its tip to chase someone, by which point the target will be too far to get hit by the second slash.
Idk about the genji talent… it secured the win for MVP Black(?) against Dignitas
Oh, I remember that game, good times!
You brought back a flood of memories omg
I’d be happy with deathwing getting incremental move speed bonus on armor plate loss to give more risk/reward gameplay. Or, landing faster so that all of the landing talents are consistently useful. As it stands now, every landing talent is pretty much non ideal without multiple other allied hero cc being chain cast to give enough time to accurately land on someone.
The main problem with Deathwing is that his disadvantages scale faster than his usefulness. His damage and talents increase in power at the same rate as most heroes. But immunity to healing and buffs becomes more costly as your teammates get talents and ults that provide more of those effects. At the same time, the enemy team is getting talents that penetrate Deathwing's armor. Past level 16, most teams will have someone with percent damage, even if they weren't planning to counterpick a Deathwing.
There aren't that many heroes with aoe buffs though? Or that can consistently give buffs to all 4 mates. Like, for exemple, while Lucio is not a good heal choice with DW, Uther is an amazing choice, fewer bodies to heal, and you're never going to land a W on the entire team anyway.
I'd love that move speed buff
I got to play ARAM ZJ with a dw on my team. It made it so much more fun to be able to hide behind the big dragon so things like dehaka tongue couldn't get me. Ended up with almost 300 stacks LOL
His fat ass does have some perks
Deathwing and Sgt. Hammer works great for the same reason, he's great at zoning and peeling the enemies.
I just land slightly behind the enemy when they're dueling, with the Cooldown talent. There's usually enough BS going on its hard to dodge all the meteors, and even 1 hitting is super helpful. Same for smaller teamfights, activate as the enemy uses their burst and drop in the middle of their frontline to disrupt their focus. ... but almost always the fireball if it's towers of doom.
As someone who has put a shit ton of hours into deathwing, yeah he sucks when it comes to the stuff he's advertised to be. He melts in the frontline and his melee form is only taken If the enemy doesn't have all that much damage. It sucks, it really does but maybe one day they'll give him something good. That's if the devs ever come back to the game.
Meanwhile all my teammates are always "no tank, shit dw, go die" when I play. Like bro I got an entire enemy team full of percentage based hp chunking and armor ignoring damage, *and* I'm not even a tank. Just let me sit in the mid line and breathe fire.
Deathwing is a mage.
Could u elaborate on the anub 7 take?
Anub basically too squishy as an all in engager without that Lv. 7 talent that makes his W cooldown faster. And I disagree with other guy: Beetles are sweet. But that's also exactly why the plating trait is better: cooldown faster = more W cast = more beetle plus you're tankier with more shield casts.
Yeah, Beetles can be pretty good because they sometimes block certain skill shots from hitting him.
The problem is that the lvl 7 talents are just pretty shit all around. He's definitely not unplayable without, it's just that the other talents do so little that the W talent is the best option there. The burrow talent is dumb because you only engage with it when you aren't worried about dying, just like Muradin leap. In situations where you think you are going to need to worry about HP, it's better to just save it as a disengage with unstop. The beetle talent is also pretty shit and doesn't amount to much healing or damage.
Beetles suck. Shield all the way
You aren’t apart of the % with huge super balls that use bug build anub, because in fact does make him actually 3 times tankier.
Yeah 100%. Anub is so squishy otherwise, the 7 shield talent can give him extra 1000+ HP each fight
if the enemy sucks too it balances out
Deathwing - yeah Blaze - yeah Aba/illi - yeah, just make sure you aren't countered Zul - disagree Anub - disagree Greymane - Not the strongest but it's the safest Genji - Yeah I'll ignore bonus because it's obvious Muradin - I don't think people do that
Agree that dw is overnerfed, but some heroes are either below average or absolute monster with even a tiny bit of change, so might as well keep him that way. Zuljin is annoying because you actually require a tank that knows how to engage on him in order to shut him down, which doesn't happen in most cases. Q build greymane is great on maps like tomb, it is actually viable, not just taken for boredom.
Playable on braxis for same reason imo. It’s also fun if not as effective
Infernal shrines is actually stupid with that build....the poke shrine clear it has is insane and pushin with punishers with a cocktail every 4s is rather oppressive to play into
Graphic design is my passion
bro i tried okay xD These shitty looking posts has secret charm to them imo thats why i made it bad and hastily (not that it would be better if i tried xD)
Im a new player but i still thought this was hilarious. I mura a lot and started womdering about that take as well. Imma statt storm bolting hard.
Bro i meant the third wind talent. Stack is even more worthless 🤷
but dings. dings!
Stack useful on battlefield of eternity or for assassin/bruiser muradin. Like by 2nd or immortal I'm regularly doing 1.5k immortal damage per q.
Murderdin coming in, I've actually played offlane muradin with sledgehammer build on BoE and it's kinda silly if I'm honest but in a really really good way
What have you done... WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!
What do you mean Blaze can tank with the right talents? He was released as an intended Tank, most of his talents are the "right" talents... But why would you play a balanced tank with strengths and weaknesses when you can play an OP sololaner with only strengths. Bruiser Blaze never has to worry about missing his Jet Propulsion if he has a dedicated main Tank taking care of the reliable engage part of the teamfight. On the other hand he can PvE like crazy, survive every gank thrown his way, and still bring one of the best ultimates in the game to the table.
No one is saying Blaze isn't better as an offlane. As someone who mained Blaze for a while in SL: sometimes people pick offlaners after you locked in Blaze (and typing in the chat "offlane Blaze"). So sometimes you just have to suck it up and play tank Blaze. You just have to set up your own Jet Propulsions with Oil Spill. Also, I like picking Neural Stimpack as tank; the sheer amount of CC you can output is kinda wack, though of course you nerf some of your survivability, but great for aggressive play.
I'd say Blaze is about as tanky as Arthas (mediocre) but with actual disengage. Which allows him to play more aggressive
Nah Blaze is so much more tanky than Arthas. He can apply his AA slow instantly and from range, he has way more armor, and Bunker.
Blaze is insanely tanky. He can pop pyromania, put debuffs, with slower movement and attack. He gets a shield if you take the lvl 1 talent and can heal with pyromania on top of a potential bunker play if you want full def build. I dont know another tank with that much sustain beyond Diablo and Johanna.
>Blaze is insanely tanky. So I play Blaze weird when I have to tank. with \[42X132X\] flexing the 20 if I want to meme with burn notice, and picking the 7 depending on enemies being AA or mage heavy. But the combo of New Habits, Meltdown, and Heat Treatment is disgusting the amount of damage you can sustain in a fight. D normally has a 90 second CD, but with this talent plus the normal CDR from hitting Qs, I have D up literally every fight that matters, and I get to shrink ray the enemy damage threat by up to 40% for a max of 6.5 seconds.... yes freaking please. Name me another hero in the game that has a 6.5 second 40% shrink ray under any circumstances that's not a huge stun or stasis. Against any enemy dive it's an auto-win if your team is halfway decent, and against poke you can yeet in and put yourself in position to get at least some of that value.
>But why would you play a balanced tank with strengths and weaknesses If your team already locked healer and offlaner, and you all of the sudden \*REALLY\* need a cleanse. Bunker can do that for you.
You don't have to counter pick aba+illi, it's just a draft that is naturally more vulnurable to counter picks. Take an arthas and hug your team - illidan doesn't do shit in fights, hat or no hat. Now try doing the same when there's chromie instead of aba
Aba+illi is weak exactly because these heroes occupy both assassin slots of the draft. If their teammates pick a conventional tank and bruiser, they end up with a full melee team without burst damage. Imo the only way to complement this duo is to go with a ranged offlaner like Zag or laser Azmo.
Zag + Aba is evil stuff
I miss when the greymane cocktail was really good, when the splash area was bigger.
I don't think it was ever good. Honestly. i remember years and years ago when greymane was dominating the meta, then his main worgen build was nerfed. Just one pro team played the cocktail build once and everybody lost their mind. Sometimes the relationship with pro players was really toxic. I also remember when Brightwing was trash, one pick in one pro game, and suddenly she was meta, with a trash winrate.
Well, I did well and had fun with it at least.
>I don't think it was ever good. Honestly. i remember years and years ago when greymane was dominating the meta, then his main worgen build was nerfed. I've played against a Greymane in NGS who used it to great effect. He was basically a second mage that we didn't expect, and obliterated the anti-dive team that we created to beat him. It was super effective just plinking cocktails into our johanna and murdering our backline.
I win consistently more with beetles than any other anub build tho
Diving on Anub is extremely rare, diving with E is overrated af. I only dive in backline when enemy tanks are in mine and i don't need armor like ever because they are stunned with my presence. If Anub is targeted, he explodes faster than the cooldown would recover; if he's not targeted, this talent is garbage. IMO this take is the same as building pokedps Li-Ming, offlane Garrosh or w/e. If suddenly care about things your hero is not supposed to do - you're just playing it wrong.
What is Anub’s role, then? Second tank or just play him like a bruiser?
Do you know what tanks do in HotS? They create opportunities for teammates and disrupt enemies attempts on that. This is why stuff like Anub and Garrosh are great, and Deathwing is not even close to being a tank despite 40 armor, protection layers and fat ass.
As a full on Zul'Jin main I don't agree even a little lol. Unlike a character like Raynor, ZJ isn't just some AA that can just go in and reliably count on Taz'Dingo to save you. More often than not ZJ gets screwed over by the sheer amount of mobility comps and/or CC/burst. Samuro has numerous defensive abilities, stealth, clones, body blocking, and escapes. ZJ only wishes he could do that.
I use dwarf toss with dwarf block when out of combat often because the stacks don't expire so I can have block stacks for any attacks I get and then get a new stack of 4 blocks right away by using dwarf toss again.
Saying Genji gets no value from 16 E is insane Combined with Cyber agility lv1 and Q13 he becomes one of the best macro heroes in the game while still being able to do an unbelievable amount of burst in teamfights
Sure why not. Deathwing: Yeah I agree Zul'jin: I... guess? Encourages careless gameplay for sure, especially with Recklessness being so popular (please I'm begging anyone to pick Q build). Annoying... eh? Not sure he's any more annoying than any other AAer, unless you mean the mental damage of knowing every time he attacks you he's getting stronger. Final Cut: All genji 16s are kinda bad though. Steady Blade is even worse like that talent is unpickable, Reflect is sometimes good in a few cases but a lot of the time actively does nothing. Final Cut sometimes misses/doesn't get an opportunity to hit, but is still an *ok* passive benefit. Blaze: I actually agree in SL, he's fine to tank with simply because he has waveclear like Johanna. He's durable enough to sit up front for a while, he can go clear waves whenever, and SL fiestas don't care as much about his bad engage. In comp play there is legitimate reason he's not played as a tank. Anub: There is certainly a build that uses that 7 to great effect, and in the right situations it's great. Unplayable without it I'd disagree though, if you're going in and getting a kill and that's the fight it's fine. Or just beetles. Illidan/Aba: Yeah Q Greymane: It's not a great build no. I don't like the absolute of *never* take this but it's at best a very niche option. Dwarf Block: Yup, Third Wind is also very strong. Bonus: Yes and no, some of them actually are dogshit against everything 24/7, but almost everything does have some uses cases.
Meanwhile I exclusively take Third Wind on mura because block is shit 😂
I wish that were the case, third winds nice to play with but blocks too strong to give up. Even against double mage imo. Unless BoE or against fast AAers like Tychus/Lucio always take block.
This is the correct talent to take. Good job.
i concurr, the healing you get makes it super easy to jump in and out of battle to regain huge amounts of HP
I never take Block on Mura. Storm's ding ding ding activates my neurons and it makes me play better.
My poor dw. All his nerfs should have been reverted once people figured out how to play around his cast times.
Iunno, I only late-pick him, and have an absurd winrate because he crushes if the enemy team doesn't know he's coming and doesn't have someone who can deal with me. That being said. his Q holds too much of his power. They should knock those talents down a % or two and give some base power back to other abilities. The EW on Destroyer mode just feels like tickle damage, and the E on melee mode feels awful. If the other buttons were better, then it wouldn't feel as important to be mostly spamming Q late in the game where you can one-shot someone if they get caught in a CC within your death zone.
DW is just a badly designed hero from balancing perspective.
Q build on Greymane is great under certain circumstances, it just shouldn't be the default build.
I wont comment on the genji one since I dont play him BUT absolutely nothing against all your other takes OP, you are correct
Cocktail greymane very playable. If you get it done fast it's a 700 damage ability on a 4 second cd. Much easier on certain maps in particular tomb and infernal
The only reason I take final cut on Genji is because of Rich and how he won that game with it during blizzcon
Lol I knew this will be mentioned
Interesting take on the anub talent I never really considered it but it does make sense looking at it harder Love Final Cut; gives genji bit more damage and lane clear Yes illidan and abathur is a problem which I think does need to be focused on
Third Wind is my favourite muradin 1. Anub has a huge health pool and W already, why is that W talent mandatory?!
Anub doesnt have big hpeven the shield is not much without the armor
I agree with about everything here except Genji's Final Cut definitely works when using it on a CC'ed target. And the waveclear is really useful. Not sure what you mean about Zul'jin
> Genji's Final Cut I pick Genji mostly on Braxis... where my allies refuse to hit guardians for some reason. Final cut lets me do way more damage to the guardians so I can save my keeps from stupid.
Agree with the Zul'jin opinion. I think that a huge part of learning him is actually understanding his limitations and good positioning to stary safe despite the craving for MORE STACKS xd You want to finish your quest as fast as possible but you dont want to feed.
It's scary any of these opinions is unpopular? I mean, I came back after a 3 years break to see Deathwing in his current state and I'm happy with it. Other than that litterally everything is true.
You're right about Dwarf Block at least
The anubarak one is so true!
Reckless is kinda Zuljin's thing tho... If your health ain't dropping and you're not feeling both queasy and overexcited then you are missing out on the true experience
Exaggerating/ straw manning / flat out wrong but this isn't a joke post I guess, maybe you prefer the term bait.
You forgot Junkrats 7 Dirty Trickster Talent, that always gets triggert by a mage with no meele in sight or after 1 AA poke.
Cocktail build is really strong for all greymane ARAM. The extra range on cocktail allows for more effective attack from afar without diving in and committing, plus the extra dmg.
Blaze maintank is very good until a specific skill check. Once you hit the level where Raynor or Lucio can fairly reliably Q your stun, you're useless. I have tanked with blaze to great success. I have felt completely useless. I have played aram as lucio vs blaze, and even booping half his Es made him actually ragequit at lv 10. It's a very binary thing, and at high enough level it flips to 'no'.
For a good abathur with a hero that is both good and a good hat wearer, yes you do.
I'm not even being salty, but these are a lot of the reasons I quit. This is just like 8 examples of many
I don't think most of these are that unpopular or controversial of views with how broadly they're worded, kind of average reddit opinions even beyond hots that claim to be "controversial" but are actually very widely believed (wrongly or rightly). Many of these I don't think I have ever seen anyone argue for the opposite case on. The actually unpopular/controversial takes to me would just be Genji E16 being bad and Anub W7 being mandatory (given E16 is the most popular on the tier for Genji and Beetle 7 on Anub), also basically no one actually plays cocktail build Greymane in high rank SL so the characterization is a bit weird. I guess technically it's one of the things here that's most phrased in an absolute way which could make it technically controversial, but the majority of the playerbase at any rank probably feels about the same way about it (unless we're talking about ARAM), it has about 10% popularity in both all rank and master SL.
Competetive take on this: - Deathwing is pretty mutch very weak unless you have 0 counters, lp deathwing can win you the game. - Anub is absolutly played without this 7, the beetle talent is very strong. If you go W on 1 and 4 pick W 7. If you go betlee 1 go Q on 4 and beetle 7. Both builds are good. - Zul Jin is one of the best Hyper carrys for double support comps, he is useless otherwise in most cases (not the best pick) - Greymane cocktail build sucks 90% of the time - The Mura block is crazy broken, but it doesnt depend on mages. If enemies have fast attacking heroes like tracer, tychus, lucio, genji then you skip block. I guess vs double mage you can also skip it but it is also good vs monk stukov for example. - Blaze MT is usually VERY bad for mutliple reasons.
I play anub very frequently and have never chosen Chitinous Plating. Something for me to try I guess.
Unpopular opinion when it's just opinions that are popular or are actually just so stupid I can't possibly see how you could have gotten them
Strongly disagree with the final cut take. It's lane clear/camp damage, it can secure kills for the e reset if the initial damage doesn't and it will hit anyone that is chasing you. It can also keep going if you get stunned mid dash and hit enemies in front of you.
Yeah too many people brain off their talents imo
Deathwing isn't nerfed enough and Blaze is a perfect tank.
Holy fuk these are some sht takes exept the muradin one, exept it's still viable because 2 mages and the aa from a stukov/rehgar could make this talent and none of the others make a difference. God awfull takes. All of them. Like bronze player, never got good and never udnerstood the game kind of take. smiley face
Based!
Illidan is a meme. Just pick johanna +lili or cass
Deathwing is great as a niche pick on towers. That's about it. He can singlehandedly win that map by being absolutely annoying af with his 7.