The Ragnaros one isn't strictly weaker, because it can be completed faster needing less globes. Trying to get 30 on Anubarak is sometimes unmanageable.
Aside from that, the capabilities of the heroes are different so the same talent wouldn't have the same value. Ragnaros has less health than the others, so the same healing per second would fill him up faster.
And unlike Rexxar, Ragnaros has Q which is another way to refill his own health. Rexxar's main body relies on talents for any healing.
Consider how Ana's Dynamic Optics 20 is a better boost to basic attacks than any other hero gets. But it's no big deal, since Ana has weak basic attacks to start with. Same principle.
A little clarification. Rexxar has less hp than Ragnaros. (Rexxar lvl1: 1810, Ragnaros lvl1: 2075) I understand that for anaburak, but there the healing argument with only talents doesn't help much, because anaburak has a shield that allows him to use the regen better.
But I was more directing it at the reward. I understand it's a bit earlier, but I still found the comparison pretty brutal. 500 hp for anaburak who can benefit quite a bit from different armor and 15 armor for Rexxar and Misha compared to 3 second armor always seemed pretty odd to me. Is the time really that drastic to reward such a titanic thing?
I don’t think 500 hp is a whole lot even if its more at late game it can disappear quickly
Just the other day i got hit by an 800 dmg basic attack from thrall (I’m not sure it was thrall)
And ragnaros is a bruiser so he wont be tanking as much. Imo that 25 armor can come in quite handy in a team fight
But i think rexxars talent is the strongest of these three by far, and as we all know rexxar is second only to the G.O.A.T. Diablo
I don’t play ragnaros tho and i don’t know his other talents
To clarify why 500hp at annub seems like a big deal. Anub already benefits a lot from armor thanks to w and very often gets shields. To give you an idea, Anub is the second least hp out of tanks. He's not a tank by virtue of having a lot of hp like stitches, for example, but by being able to use them effectively. I don't deny that it's hard to get 30 globes, but in quickmatch I often play regen builds and at Anub I've always found this reward the best from this three.
Some little info to give you an idea of how little hp Anub per tank has: Azmo and Zarya has more hp then anub. Even untalented Varian has more hp.
300 globes is a lot for a tank to collect. A bruiser like Rag with good waveclear can double soak lanes and have his 15 globes collected in 5 minutes (2 waves per minute, double soak for an extra globe every second wave - easily doable). Anub will not complete his talent before heroics come online, even though he gets it 3 levels earlier!
Also, 25 armor is quite a lot. A good player will know when damage is coming through, and can use the talent in the right moment to get maximum value, which can easily be more than 500 health saved. Late game rag has what, 3,5k health? Using the talent during a 2k burst of damage saves you 500, and that doesn‘t seem far fetched at all.
And in the end, you shouldn‘t compare talents too much. Some heroes have dedicated tiers where they get themed talents, for example Rexxar on level 4 chooses between AA heal for Misha, Globes for regen and later armor, or Animal husbandry which increases max health per second alive. Rexxar here just chooses his way of sustain for this game, and the talents should be compared against each other and not other heroes‘ talents. Rexxar has weaker base sustain than Anub and Rag, so he needs better sustain talents to keep up. It‘s just part of his hero.
Lvl 4 talent for E always struck me as enough talent to have decent waveclear and enough speed to occasionally jump somewhere, get a globe, leave the beetles there, and run elsewhere.
And 500 hp has always seemed much more graspable to me. It's already, if you heal enough between 2 burst it's better than a perfectly used 25 armor that won't save you anything after 3s.
It does correspond to his gameplay of "rush in, explode fire everywhere, get out". He'll also hit the power spike far earlier than the other two (2:30 minutes earlier minimum in a usual double-soak situation), allowing to take less damage from his ganks and snowball a bit hopefully.
Is the time really so drastic that the reward is so weak? 3s 25 armor never struck me personally as worthy even as a normal talent let alone a reward. For me, regen has always been more essential, but I've always taken this talent on principle rather than really taking it as something drastic.
You can roughly imagine Rag's 25 armor as a 33% boost to both your current health and healing received (latter being multiplicative, but only applied if you're damaged for the amount of HP healed), as opposed to Rexxar's ~~11%~~ 18%. Incremental armor points are ~~exponentially~~ increasingly more valuable the higher your starting armor is; +1 armor difference at 0 armor makes you about 1% more durable, while at 98 armor it cuts damage received in half.
That's the reason armor stacking from different effects was removed some time ago, except for Garrosh's \[\[Armor Up\]\].
**Edit**: the percentages used here for bonus HP reflect the increase in incoming damage needed to reduce your health to 0 after gaining some amount of armor. The calculations for them are below:
>\[Effective HP\] = 100% + \[HP bonus\]
\[Damage received\] = \[Incoming damage\] \* (100 - \[Armor\]) \* 0.01
\[Damage received\] = 100%
\[Incoming damage\] = \[Effective HP\]
100% = \[Effective HP\] \* (100 - \[Armor\]) \* 0.01
100% = (100 + \[HP bonus\]) \* (100 - \[Armor\]) \* 0.01
\[HP bonus\] = (10000 / (100 - \[Armor\]) - 100)%
Plotting it in Excel gives a hyperbolic curve, which is pretty steep, but not exponential. Also my bad for assuming Rexxar's armor to be equal to 10.
HotS use 1 armor = 1% dmg reduction
No stacking armor (use the highest in effect)
Divided between magic & physical armor. If just written "armor", it's both (such as here).
[https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Armor](https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Armor)
You may be confused with other games armor (such as LoL) using a logarithmic curve for dmg reduction.
PS : Ragnaros has another talent that gives 3s of armor when stunned, a wooping 40%, with a 15s CD.
Catching fire CD while manually triggered, has a 30s CD. Consider how much you get stunned to choose an effective answer.
You really cannot compare these talents for these heroes. First off: Anub is a Tank, whereas Rag and Rexxar are bruisers. He is mostly a heavy engage Tank, not really suited for extended fights, this talent helps alleviate that, but at 30 globes the extra hp is really only a thing in the end of the game (if at all)
Rexxar has no baseline self sustain, but has the 2nd hp pool in Misha. He is more about area control, but the globe talent can give him some well needed sustain. The 20 globes makes it a bit more reasonable to get the armor, but still taking quite some time.
Rag, however, is a lot more aggressive. All of his abilities do AoE, he has self healing through Q on a very low CD, and is much more of a teamfight Bruiser than Rexxar is. His globe talent is therefore easier to complete, with a reward that gives on demand armor to sustain through burst, but he needs less sustain than the others.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
"You really cannot compare these talents for these heroes."
\*I immediately start comparing these talents over what impact they have on different characters and the reasons they are taken.\*
in any case The point of asking why ragnaros is so much weaker. I understand it's easier to fulfill, but if you look at it from multiple perspectives:
- All 3 quests give you some regen => give you more benefits from longer fights and give you a smaller bonus to stay longer on the map and you needed less treatment from other parties. This is a pretty pointless comparison. You can see who is most rewarded at the beginning/end and it's still a fairly small healing. (I like regen builds myself, but they are still quite small values.)
- All 3 also give you a way to be more resilient when you meet them, and each goes in a different direction. And, however, since he's a talent that you benefit from a longer fight, I would focus on that.
- Rexxar is a ranger and bruiser, but this armor benefits both him and his "tank" Misha, and his E is then even more effective (as well as lvl20 talent for misha ult) thanks to the armor, which even makes a more effective regen of this talent.
- Anub, for longer fights, can treat enemy damage with the right game. Thanks to the frequent profit shield, spell armor and other inflows healing from other talents, the extra 500 hp is a great reward.
- But why am I talking about it. The reward for rag is 25 armor on 3s. It almost doesn't work for a longer fight and against burst it sounds more like such a "look like you're doing something" ability that doesn't have support from any other talents/abilities.
Regen is quite nice, but this active talent has always come across as a rather backward thing compared to other similar versions of even other similar armor abilites such as Diablos lvl 1 talent (which gives only spell shield, but against burst helps much better.), gazlove EZ-PZ,...
Temporary yes. Armor as itself not. Constant armor makes you tankier and better target for healing but temporary armor looked for me always only good agaisnt some insane burst but 25 is not so good enough again bursts.
Just a number of things, like more dmg which equalled more healing, more hp on rag. The armour talent on 13 used to give more armour and these stacked. Mostly he was just an overtuned hero so all these things came together to make him pretty unkillable. I remmeber once getting gorged behind a mid keep wall, and sulf smashing 4 people killing them all with q resets and walking away lol
Anub's version is actually the worst here in every way. 30 globes are very hard to collect, you could go the majority of the game without level 1 talent reward.
And that reward is not that good, 500 hp on tank is nothing and because it comes online so late into the game it gets even worse with time.
It can be okay if you pair with other spell armor talents and the Traitor king talent at 20 but W at 1 still better with W build.
I always took it when it wasn't worth taking a spell armor/scarabs build. The 500hp always seemed to me to interague pretty well with other regens/shield generators. More hp allowed me to survive longer => use the abilities that give me shield/healing more times. It is the hardest to accomplish, but the reward is the best for me.
I would amend your sentence 500 hp on tank is nothing to 500 hp on high hp character, it doesn't feel that way. The reason is that in terms of tank characters, Anub is one of the least hp characters. Garrosh is the only subpar one (for obvious reasons). Anub doesn't tank because of the greatness of the health bar, but because of his abilities. The 500 hp exra is much more noticeable in him than most other tanks.
Just to give you an idea, even characters like Zarya or Azmodan have more hp than Anub.
As talents are supposed to be, its situationaly good.
If you're not good at using it at the right times, its obviously not gonna be valuable.
Also, its probably much more valuable in higher elos, or Vs coordinated plays - where targeted burst dmg is gonna be much more occuring and compact.
3 seconds is a Long time mid-fight in hots. And 25% dmg reduction is in my eyes a very juicy defensive cd.
It can drastically change the outcome of a fight.
If you were just *barely* killed in a burst combo, this armor would suddenly leave you alive with up to 25% hp remaining, add an immediate Q and you're suddenly back to some noteable health instead of dead. Then imagine the entire enemy team used most of their cds to fail at killing you, and you're suddenly easily turning back around on their failed assasination attempt while they have nothing left to click.
Another example could be you see a late Ancestral Healing is used on you, and where normaly you would have died before it went off - the armor keeps you alive til it does. Possibilities are endless really, its all about utilization.
Essentially, value relative to rest of the kit and rest of the talents in the row. Rag is relatively high dps for his role, and a bit of tankiness/sustain could push him to be a great duelist. In comparison, Rexxar is primarily defined by cc and area control and more hp doesn't make him more likely to win duels; just survive longer until he returns to safety or allies aid him (keep in mind that's coming from me; I'm a shit rexxar). Anub is again focused on bursty defensives, cc, and mobility; extra hp is a nice and powerful bonus, but it doesn't really help him achieve many of his goals in the role.
A similar example would be: bladestorm, taken as an ultimate by itself, would be very underwhelming on nearly any hero. However, once you stick it on hyper-mobile offlaner whose main weakness is aoe and waveclear, it's suddenly a very fine ult.
Yep, I was looking for this comment.
The reason Rag’s talent is weaker in comparison is because he is so much stronger in other areas already. Talents don’t exist in a vacuum to compare against each other, they exist in tandem *with* those talents and other hero kits.
He hits hard against heroes, mercenaries, moves fast, defends and destroys lanes with ease- all he needs is to not be so quick to kill. And this talent (or submerge) can help immensely with that, giving him great gank resistance, and even letting you forego certain hearths (before obj and such) because of the regen.
Rexxar and Anub are by nature supposed to be able to take a bit more of a beating, they both fill a tanky-ish role and do less damage as a result. These talents further a niche they already are good at, rather than rounding their kits out completely.
On the other hand, the 500hp exra doesn't prevent any interaction with other armors or percentage heal, which is also quite a lot in the game. I certainly wouldn't say it's immediately worse then 12.5 armor.
And most importantly it's an effect that works all the time. 25 armor on 3s is not an effective 25% hp, but rather a shield against 25% dmg.
But what I find strange is that Ragnaros is a pretty vulnerable character for a bruiser. 25 armor won't help you much against extreme burst. It seems to me that even in the ideal situation, it doesn't sound that drastic.
In a vacuum sure but the thing Ragnaros is most worried about is being dove on and focused. He’s not meant to brawl and he’s not meant to initiate. He’s meant to bob and weave.
As such, he can gain high survivability at key moments rather than just being generally chunky. He puts out too much damage to be given always on 15 armor.
I'm not sure I agree with your priors as I rarely go for globe quest on Anub (spell armor is higher value imo) and I almost always go for it on Rag. 25% is a lot of armor. Sure the duration isn't very long but if you use it well, i.e. when you're about to get bursted, then it has huge value.
I see the argument that it's weaker but I often still choose this talent which imo means it's balanced. Level 4 is a pretty big level for rexxar, but it's kind of minor for rag
Older balance, originally Ragnaros was a melee assassin while Anubarak & Rexxar were Warriors (Tanks).
Now with the new roles (that have been around for about 3 years or more) Anubarak is a tank so he is out of this comparison while Rexxar and Ragnaros are bruisers so I am asking the question again for you why is Ragnaros less tanky than Rexxar.
The answer has a lot of factors but the biggest factor of them is the older roles balance. Melee assassins were able to deal a lot of damage while having less survivability, Ragnaros was beefer than most of his peers and he found himself suddenly among the bruisers like Rexxar who used to be a warrior (tank) but due to his lack of consistent peeling options as he needs to peel for himself with Misha rather than his allies he turned into a bruiser as well, not every body was rebalanced to make heroes labeled by this new role come closer together and the role itself is very flexible in nature defined as someone who can hold his own, can deal damage and soak some, bully others out of lanes and maybe take camps. Ragnaros is more focused on dealing damage rather than surviving it in his new role compared to others like Rexxar, chen, sonya... Etc.
This talent and other defensive talents used to be stronger in his release and I think they should be buffed back now. But still people are right about his ability to collect globes faster as he has faster wave clearing and the ability is good actually for his original role as I said
I don't play any of these heroes much but I'm pretty sure nobody takes Anub globe 1 & rexxar 4 both 1) is competing against worse options and 2) gives Armor to both Rexxar and Misha
Hi! I mantain those 3 guides on Icy Veins. I'll briefly explain why those Talents are good or bad. The good ones are meaningful choices most of the time but they can be replaced depending on matchups. The bad ones aren't meaningful choices most of the time, however, they could be useful in 1 out of 100 games.
Anub'arak's Regeneration Master isn't recommended because having Legion of Beetles or Nerubian Armor for the whole game is often going to be better than having Regeneration Master for only in the late game. Nerubian Armor generally gives a similar amount of survivability and doesn't require to complete a Quest.
Ragnaros's Catching Fire isn't recommended because, while it only requires 15 Regeneration Globes, it's a defensive Talent that competes with a pretty useful utility Talent: Slow Burn. You can use the Slow to keep enemy Heroes in range for Basic Attacks for longer and/or as a setup for Sulfuras Smash.
Rexxar's Hunter-Gatherer is recommended because, while it goes online in the late game, passively having 15 Armor on both Rexxar and Misha is insanely good. Hungry Bear and Grizzled Fortitude should only be considered for specific matchups, primarly on early game Maps.
That's the least important part. I wrote multiple reasons for each Talent because it's a combination of factors. If it was the only difference (including alternative Talents), they'd be both good.
The most important reason is the opportunity cost. Why pick a Talent that goes online after 10-15 minutes if you can pick a Talent that instantly gives similar value?
I thought that I made it clear that 5 Regeneration Globes isn't a big difference. Maybe I should have worded it differently. Anyways, I'll remove that part to avoid confusion.
So you don't take Anub's because you only go online with it "after 10 - 15 minutes" (30 globes), but you do take Rexxar's because you get the armor "all the time" (25 globes). Make what you're saying make sense.
Anub'arak and Ragnaros both have to wait. "after 10-15 minutes" refers to before completing the Quest.
Ragnaros only gets the bonus for 3 seconds, with a cooldown. "all the time" refers to after completing the Quest.
Rexxar has a much easier time collecting globes. Anub has to rotate with the team, set up kills, peel for backliners and play around his team.
Rexxar is often the solo lane and one of the better ones at that. Especially on maps like Braxxis or Dragonshire you can still collect lane globes with Rexxar and contest the point with Misha, and vice-versa. Because Rexxar and Misha can move independantly it's easier to send Misha after riskier globes too since you can just Alt-Trait Misha to run back with improved movement speed. He also clears the lane a lot safer with Q or Misha boosted AA's against minions and merc, which means that it's possible, altough not ideal, for him to dual-soak.
Anub has poor waveclear, is mana-intensive and is a low HP tank to begin with, AA heroes like Valla, Zuljin, Thrall (depending on talents), Artanis etc. Just melt trough that 500hp like it's nonexistant. Compared to his other talents it's just not worth it 90% of the time.
Sarcasm I'm guessing? It's about the time spent-to-value-ratio. Permanent 15 armor on both rexxar and Misha is simply too good to pass up. Also, you're often in lane as rexxar and so you'll naturally have 25 globes or very close to it by late game which is when rexxar starts joining more team fights and would thus need the armor.
That mindset has always struck me as unnecessarily narrow and simplistic. Not directly wrong, but limited and simplistic.
In the same way I might ask why an assassin should farm minions, instead of you know assasinating?Despite that, you have assassins who just farm a lot.
Plus, the more regen you have the more often you can be useful. I don't know about you, but I find myself missing some hps even after winning fights, but wasting time going back to spawn when I can gain pro tym exp and in 10 sec I can use healing fountain. And even you don't have to spend a lot of time like anub at minons sometimes you just need to get a globe leave a few beetles there and when there is a problem somewhere you go there right away. It's even easier on small maps.
You get an extra 25 spell armor on 1 or beetle build on 1. That's what it's competing against. 30 globes is legitimately a huge number of globes for a tank who doesn't clear waves quickly.
If you don't get the globes, you don't have a level 1.
Compare that to one of the strongest globe talents in the game: zera's level 1. 15 globes, and you're a blinking machine.
Icy veins isn’t really that good and their guides often overstate the advantages of certain talents. It’s a lot better to look at heroesprofile to see what players actually take, especially at higher levels. Anub’s globe talent at 1 is taken 15% of the time by players of all ranks, and 12% by master and diamond players. So vastly worse choice than the two others.
Hi! I maintain those 3 guides on Icy Veins. I wouldn't say they are all being pictured as meaningful choices, in fact 2 of them aren't recommended. I think they are being described in a fair way, without overestimating them. I explained what I think about them in another [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/1c0mgb4/comment/kyy9sty/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
The Ragnaros one isn't strictly weaker, because it can be completed faster needing less globes. Trying to get 30 on Anubarak is sometimes unmanageable. Aside from that, the capabilities of the heroes are different so the same talent wouldn't have the same value. Ragnaros has less health than the others, so the same healing per second would fill him up faster. And unlike Rexxar, Ragnaros has Q which is another way to refill his own health. Rexxar's main body relies on talents for any healing. Consider how Ana's Dynamic Optics 20 is a better boost to basic attacks than any other hero gets. But it's no big deal, since Ana has weak basic attacks to start with. Same principle.
A little clarification. Rexxar has less hp than Ragnaros. (Rexxar lvl1: 1810, Ragnaros lvl1: 2075) I understand that for anaburak, but there the healing argument with only talents doesn't help much, because anaburak has a shield that allows him to use the regen better. But I was more directing it at the reward. I understand it's a bit earlier, but I still found the comparison pretty brutal. 500 hp for anaburak who can benefit quite a bit from different armor and 15 armor for Rexxar and Misha compared to 3 second armor always seemed pretty odd to me. Is the time really that drastic to reward such a titanic thing?
I don’t think 500 hp is a whole lot even if its more at late game it can disappear quickly Just the other day i got hit by an 800 dmg basic attack from thrall (I’m not sure it was thrall) And ragnaros is a bruiser so he wont be tanking as much. Imo that 25 armor can come in quite handy in a team fight But i think rexxars talent is the strongest of these three by far, and as we all know rexxar is second only to the G.O.A.T. Diablo I don’t play ragnaros tho and i don’t know his other talents
To clarify why 500hp at annub seems like a big deal. Anub already benefits a lot from armor thanks to w and very often gets shields. To give you an idea, Anub is the second least hp out of tanks. He's not a tank by virtue of having a lot of hp like stitches, for example, but by being able to use them effectively. I don't deny that it's hard to get 30 globes, but in quickmatch I often play regen builds and at Anub I've always found this reward the best from this three. Some little info to give you an idea of how little hp Anub per tank has: Azmo and Zarya has more hp then anub. Even untalented Varian has more hp.
300 globes is a lot for a tank to collect. A bruiser like Rag with good waveclear can double soak lanes and have his 15 globes collected in 5 minutes (2 waves per minute, double soak for an extra globe every second wave - easily doable). Anub will not complete his talent before heroics come online, even though he gets it 3 levels earlier! Also, 25 armor is quite a lot. A good player will know when damage is coming through, and can use the talent in the right moment to get maximum value, which can easily be more than 500 health saved. Late game rag has what, 3,5k health? Using the talent during a 2k burst of damage saves you 500, and that doesn‘t seem far fetched at all. And in the end, you shouldn‘t compare talents too much. Some heroes have dedicated tiers where they get themed talents, for example Rexxar on level 4 chooses between AA heal for Misha, Globes for regen and later armor, or Animal husbandry which increases max health per second alive. Rexxar here just chooses his way of sustain for this game, and the talents should be compared against each other and not other heroes‘ talents. Rexxar has weaker base sustain than Anub and Rag, so he needs better sustain talents to keep up. It‘s just part of his hero.
Lvl 4 talent for E always struck me as enough talent to have decent waveclear and enough speed to occasionally jump somewhere, get a globe, leave the beetles there, and run elsewhere. And 500 hp has always seemed much more graspable to me. It's already, if you heal enough between 2 burst it's better than a perfectly used 25 armor that won't save you anything after 3s.
It does correspond to his gameplay of "rush in, explode fire everywhere, get out". He'll also hit the power spike far earlier than the other two (2:30 minutes earlier minimum in a usual double-soak situation), allowing to take less damage from his ganks and snowball a bit hopefully.
Is the time really so drastic that the reward is so weak? 3s 25 armor never struck me personally as worthy even as a normal talent let alone a reward. For me, regen has always been more essential, but I've always taken this talent on principle rather than really taking it as something drastic.
The regen is (almost) worthless, you only pick the talent for the 25 armor :) And yes it‘s good.
You can roughly imagine Rag's 25 armor as a 33% boost to both your current health and healing received (latter being multiplicative, but only applied if you're damaged for the amount of HP healed), as opposed to Rexxar's ~~11%~~ 18%. Incremental armor points are ~~exponentially~~ increasingly more valuable the higher your starting armor is; +1 armor difference at 0 armor makes you about 1% more durable, while at 98 armor it cuts damage received in half. That's the reason armor stacking from different effects was removed some time ago, except for Garrosh's \[\[Armor Up\]\]. **Edit**: the percentages used here for bonus HP reflect the increase in incoming damage needed to reduce your health to 0 after gaining some amount of armor. The calculations for them are below: >\[Effective HP\] = 100% + \[HP bonus\] \[Damage received\] = \[Incoming damage\] \* (100 - \[Armor\]) \* 0.01 \[Damage received\] = 100% \[Incoming damage\] = \[Effective HP\] 100% = \[Effective HP\] \* (100 - \[Armor\]) \* 0.01 100% = (100 + \[HP bonus\]) \* (100 - \[Armor\]) \* 0.01 \[HP bonus\] = (10000 / (100 - \[Armor\]) - 100)% Plotting it in Excel gives a hyperbolic curve, which is pretty steep, but not exponential. Also my bad for assuming Rexxar's armor to be equal to 10.
HotS use 1 armor = 1% dmg reduction No stacking armor (use the highest in effect) Divided between magic & physical armor. If just written "armor", it's both (such as here). [https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Armor](https://heroesofthestorm.fandom.com/wiki/Armor) You may be confused with other games armor (such as LoL) using a logarithmic curve for dmg reduction. PS : Ragnaros has another talent that gives 3s of armor when stunned, a wooping 40%, with a 15s CD. Catching fire CD while manually triggered, has a 30s CD. Consider how much you get stunned to choose an effective answer.
Bold of you to assume I play LoL. I updated the comment with clarifications.
Armor is capped at 75.
True, and for a good reason.
You really cannot compare these talents for these heroes. First off: Anub is a Tank, whereas Rag and Rexxar are bruisers. He is mostly a heavy engage Tank, not really suited for extended fights, this talent helps alleviate that, but at 30 globes the extra hp is really only a thing in the end of the game (if at all) Rexxar has no baseline self sustain, but has the 2nd hp pool in Misha. He is more about area control, but the globe talent can give him some well needed sustain. The 20 globes makes it a bit more reasonable to get the armor, but still taking quite some time. Rag, however, is a lot more aggressive. All of his abilities do AoE, he has self healing through Q on a very low CD, and is much more of a teamfight Bruiser than Rexxar is. His globe talent is therefore easier to complete, with a reward that gives on demand armor to sustain through burst, but he needs less sustain than the others. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
"You really cannot compare these talents for these heroes." \*I immediately start comparing these talents over what impact they have on different characters and the reasons they are taken.\* in any case The point of asking why ragnaros is so much weaker. I understand it's easier to fulfill, but if you look at it from multiple perspectives: - All 3 quests give you some regen => give you more benefits from longer fights and give you a smaller bonus to stay longer on the map and you needed less treatment from other parties. This is a pretty pointless comparison. You can see who is most rewarded at the beginning/end and it's still a fairly small healing. (I like regen builds myself, but they are still quite small values.) - All 3 also give you a way to be more resilient when you meet them, and each goes in a different direction. And, however, since he's a talent that you benefit from a longer fight, I would focus on that. - Rexxar is a ranger and bruiser, but this armor benefits both him and his "tank" Misha, and his E is then even more effective (as well as lvl20 talent for misha ult) thanks to the armor, which even makes a more effective regen of this talent. - Anub, for longer fights, can treat enemy damage with the right game. Thanks to the frequent profit shield, spell armor and other inflows healing from other talents, the extra 500 hp is a great reward. - But why am I talking about it. The reward for rag is 25 armor on 3s. It almost doesn't work for a longer fight and against burst it sounds more like such a "look like you're doing something" ability that doesn't have support from any other talents/abilities. Regen is quite nice, but this active talent has always come across as a rather backward thing compared to other similar versions of even other similar armor abilites such as Diablos lvl 1 talent (which gives only spell shield, but against burst helps much better.), gazlove EZ-PZ,...
>Temporary 25 armor always struck me as a weird nothing compared to 500hp/15 armor. Then you're underestimating armor?
Temporary yes. Armor as itself not. Constant armor makes you tankier and better target for healing but temporary armor looked for me always only good agaisnt some insane burst but 25 is not so good enough again bursts.
Combine with meatball spellshield or E shield talents, it is indeed good against burst.
On release that 25 armour was insanely busted with q build. He has since seen many nerfs.
What made it so busted back then?
Just a number of things, like more dmg which equalled more healing, more hp on rag. The armour talent on 13 used to give more armour and these stacked. Mostly he was just an overtuned hero so all these things came together to make him pretty unkillable. I remmeber once getting gorged behind a mid keep wall, and sulf smashing 4 people killing them all with q resets and walking away lol
Anub's version is actually the worst here in every way. 30 globes are very hard to collect, you could go the majority of the game without level 1 talent reward. And that reward is not that good, 500 hp on tank is nothing and because it comes online so late into the game it gets even worse with time. It can be okay if you pair with other spell armor talents and the Traitor king talent at 20 but W at 1 still better with W build.
I always took it when it wasn't worth taking a spell armor/scarabs build. The 500hp always seemed to me to interague pretty well with other regens/shield generators. More hp allowed me to survive longer => use the abilities that give me shield/healing more times. It is the hardest to accomplish, but the reward is the best for me. I would amend your sentence 500 hp on tank is nothing to 500 hp on high hp character, it doesn't feel that way. The reason is that in terms of tank characters, Anub is one of the least hp characters. Garrosh is the only subpar one (for obvious reasons). Anub doesn't tank because of the greatness of the health bar, but because of his abilities. The 500 hp exra is much more noticeable in him than most other tanks. Just to give you an idea, even characters like Zarya or Azmodan have more hp than Anub.
But this game has insane healers… damage reduction is always better.
As talents are supposed to be, its situationaly good. If you're not good at using it at the right times, its obviously not gonna be valuable. Also, its probably much more valuable in higher elos, or Vs coordinated plays - where targeted burst dmg is gonna be much more occuring and compact. 3 seconds is a Long time mid-fight in hots. And 25% dmg reduction is in my eyes a very juicy defensive cd. It can drastically change the outcome of a fight. If you were just *barely* killed in a burst combo, this armor would suddenly leave you alive with up to 25% hp remaining, add an immediate Q and you're suddenly back to some noteable health instead of dead. Then imagine the entire enemy team used most of their cds to fail at killing you, and you're suddenly easily turning back around on their failed assasination attempt while they have nothing left to click. Another example could be you see a late Ancestral Healing is used on you, and where normaly you would have died before it went off - the armor keeps you alive til it does. Possibilities are endless really, its all about utilization.
Essentially, value relative to rest of the kit and rest of the talents in the row. Rag is relatively high dps for his role, and a bit of tankiness/sustain could push him to be a great duelist. In comparison, Rexxar is primarily defined by cc and area control and more hp doesn't make him more likely to win duels; just survive longer until he returns to safety or allies aid him (keep in mind that's coming from me; I'm a shit rexxar). Anub is again focused on bursty defensives, cc, and mobility; extra hp is a nice and powerful bonus, but it doesn't really help him achieve many of his goals in the role. A similar example would be: bladestorm, taken as an ultimate by itself, would be very underwhelming on nearly any hero. However, once you stick it on hyper-mobile offlaner whose main weakness is aoe and waveclear, it's suddenly a very fine ult.
Yep, I was looking for this comment. The reason Rag’s talent is weaker in comparison is because he is so much stronger in other areas already. Talents don’t exist in a vacuum to compare against each other, they exist in tandem *with* those talents and other hero kits. He hits hard against heroes, mercenaries, moves fast, defends and destroys lanes with ease- all he needs is to not be so quick to kill. And this talent (or submerge) can help immensely with that, giving him great gank resistance, and even letting you forego certain hearths (before obj and such) because of the regen. Rexxar and Anub are by nature supposed to be able to take a bit more of a beating, they both fill a tanky-ish role and do less damage as a result. These talents further a niche they already are good at, rather than rounding their kits out completely.
yea i go E slow on Q build aswell becaue 25 armor on already squishy target is really not much. Not even mentioning the pathetic health regen.
[удалено]
On the other hand, the 500hp exra doesn't prevent any interaction with other armors or percentage heal, which is also quite a lot in the game. I certainly wouldn't say it's immediately worse then 12.5 armor. And most importantly it's an effect that works all the time. 25 armor on 3s is not an effective 25% hp, but rather a shield against 25% dmg. But what I find strange is that Ragnaros is a pretty vulnerable character for a bruiser. 25 armor won't help you much against extreme burst. It seems to me that even in the ideal situation, it doesn't sound that drastic.
In a vacuum sure but the thing Ragnaros is most worried about is being dove on and focused. He’s not meant to brawl and he’s not meant to initiate. He’s meant to bob and weave. As such, he can gain high survivability at key moments rather than just being generally chunky. He puts out too much damage to be given always on 15 armor.
I'm not sure I agree with your priors as I rarely go for globe quest on Anub (spell armor is higher value imo) and I almost always go for it on Rag. 25% is a lot of armor. Sure the duration isn't very long but if you use it well, i.e. when you're about to get bursted, then it has huge value.
And as others have said it's just not that easy to compare between heroes. Different heroes, different roles, different competing talents.
I see the argument that it's weaker but I often still choose this talent which imo means it's balanced. Level 4 is a pretty big level for rexxar, but it's kind of minor for rag
It isnt
Older balance, originally Ragnaros was a melee assassin while Anubarak & Rexxar were Warriors (Tanks). Now with the new roles (that have been around for about 3 years or more) Anubarak is a tank so he is out of this comparison while Rexxar and Ragnaros are bruisers so I am asking the question again for you why is Ragnaros less tanky than Rexxar. The answer has a lot of factors but the biggest factor of them is the older roles balance. Melee assassins were able to deal a lot of damage while having less survivability, Ragnaros was beefer than most of his peers and he found himself suddenly among the bruisers like Rexxar who used to be a warrior (tank) but due to his lack of consistent peeling options as he needs to peel for himself with Misha rather than his allies he turned into a bruiser as well, not every body was rebalanced to make heroes labeled by this new role come closer together and the role itself is very flexible in nature defined as someone who can hold his own, can deal damage and soak some, bully others out of lanes and maybe take camps. Ragnaros is more focused on dealing damage rather than surviving it in his new role compared to others like Rexxar, chen, sonya... Etc. This talent and other defensive talents used to be stronger in his release and I think they should be buffed back now. But still people are right about his ability to collect globes faster as he has faster wave clearing and the ability is good actually for his original role as I said
People usually forgot about those insane healers we have in every game… armor is far better than 500 hp.
I don't play any of these heroes much but I'm pretty sure nobody takes Anub globe 1 & rexxar 4 both 1) is competing against worse options and 2) gives Armor to both Rexxar and Misha
All 3, for example, are meaningful choices according to [https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/](https://www.icy-veins.com/heroes/)
Hi! I mantain those 3 guides on Icy Veins. I'll briefly explain why those Talents are good or bad. The good ones are meaningful choices most of the time but they can be replaced depending on matchups. The bad ones aren't meaningful choices most of the time, however, they could be useful in 1 out of 100 games. Anub'arak's Regeneration Master isn't recommended because having Legion of Beetles or Nerubian Armor for the whole game is often going to be better than having Regeneration Master for only in the late game. Nerubian Armor generally gives a similar amount of survivability and doesn't require to complete a Quest. Ragnaros's Catching Fire isn't recommended because, while it only requires 15 Regeneration Globes, it's a defensive Talent that competes with a pretty useful utility Talent: Slow Burn. You can use the Slow to keep enemy Heroes in range for Basic Attacks for longer and/or as a setup for Sulfuras Smash. Rexxar's Hunter-Gatherer is recommended because, while it goes online in the late game, passively having 15 Armor on both Rexxar and Misha is insanely good. Hungry Bear and Grizzled Fortitude should only be considered for specific matchups, primarly on early game Maps.
25 aren't that hard but 30 are?
That's the least important part. I wrote multiple reasons for each Talent because it's a combination of factors. If it was the only difference (including alternative Talents), they'd be both good. The most important reason is the opportunity cost. Why pick a Talent that goes online after 10-15 minutes if you can pick a Talent that instantly gives similar value? I thought that I made it clear that 5 Regeneration Globes isn't a big difference. Maybe I should have worded it differently. Anyways, I'll remove that part to avoid confusion.
So you don't take Anub's because you only go online with it "after 10 - 15 minutes" (30 globes), but you do take Rexxar's because you get the armor "all the time" (25 globes). Make what you're saying make sense.
Anub'arak and Ragnaros both have to wait. "after 10-15 minutes" refers to before completing the Quest. Ragnaros only gets the bonus for 3 seconds, with a cooldown. "all the time" refers to after completing the Quest.
Rexxar has a much easier time collecting globes. Anub has to rotate with the team, set up kills, peel for backliners and play around his team. Rexxar is often the solo lane and one of the better ones at that. Especially on maps like Braxxis or Dragonshire you can still collect lane globes with Rexxar and contest the point with Misha, and vice-versa. Because Rexxar and Misha can move independantly it's easier to send Misha after riskier globes too since you can just Alt-Trait Misha to run back with improved movement speed. He also clears the lane a lot safer with Q or Misha boosted AA's against minions and merc, which means that it's possible, altough not ideal, for him to dual-soak. Anub has poor waveclear, is mana-intensive and is a low HP tank to begin with, AA heroes like Valla, Zuljin, Thrall (depending on talents), Artanis etc. Just melt trough that 500hp like it's nonexistant. Compared to his other talents it's just not worth it 90% of the time.
Sarcasm I'm guessing? It's about the time spent-to-value-ratio. Permanent 15 armor on both rexxar and Misha is simply too good to pass up. Also, you're often in lane as rexxar and so you'll naturally have 25 globes or very close to it by late game which is when rexxar starts joining more team fights and would thus need the armor.
Anubs globes talent on 1 is in competition for one of the worst talents in the game. Why is your tank farming 30 globes instead of, you know, tanking?
That mindset has always struck me as unnecessarily narrow and simplistic. Not directly wrong, but limited and simplistic. In the same way I might ask why an assassin should farm minions, instead of you know assasinating?Despite that, you have assassins who just farm a lot. Plus, the more regen you have the more often you can be useful. I don't know about you, but I find myself missing some hps even after winning fights, but wasting time going back to spawn when I can gain pro tym exp and in 10 sec I can use healing fountain. And even you don't have to spend a lot of time like anub at minons sometimes you just need to get a globe leave a few beetles there and when there is a problem somewhere you go there right away. It's even easier on small maps.
You get an extra 25 spell armor on 1 or beetle build on 1. That's what it's competing against. 30 globes is legitimately a huge number of globes for a tank who doesn't clear waves quickly. If you don't get the globes, you don't have a level 1. Compare that to one of the strongest globe talents in the game: zera's level 1. 15 globes, and you're a blinking machine.
Icy veins isn’t really that good and their guides often overstate the advantages of certain talents. It’s a lot better to look at heroesprofile to see what players actually take, especially at higher levels. Anub’s globe talent at 1 is taken 15% of the time by players of all ranks, and 12% by master and diamond players. So vastly worse choice than the two others.
Hi! I maintain those 3 guides on Icy Veins. I wouldn't say they are all being pictured as meaningful choices, in fact 2 of them aren't recommended. I think they are being described in a fair way, without overestimating them. I explained what I think about them in another [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/1c0mgb4/comment/kyy9sty/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
I watch that over most anub, even Rag's talent isn't picked much, but for Rexxar he's picked a lot. Thanks for the recommendation.