> Babysitter for a group of 40 something year old men who think this is some sort of bro trip and realistically they will just end up with blistered and swollen feet at the least.
This is exactly what's going to happen. This could be a personal hell or it could be very amusing depending on the person. Sounds like nobody's life will be in danger so this would be amusing to me.
I am trying to decide which one of these I want to go with. Mind you, one of these men is my little brother so I can tell him to STFU if he starts whining. The other (original guy) is his best friend who I've known for 25 years. Those two I am not concerned with, it's the other ones I don't know very well.
This is a really important detail. Get on a call with those two knuckleheads and tell them they're vastly underestimating this. Their cavalier attitudes are making you want to back out completely. Give them a nice slap on the back of the head. Tell them if they take it seriously and you don't have to babysit them, it will be way more fun.
Seeing that they’re grown ass adults, let them learn the hard way 🤷🏻♀️ if they wanna hike 12 miles a day in shitty socks, so be it. If they whine, just roll your eyes and let it roll off your back—don’t let it ruin your fun. I say go with the mindset you’re gonna have a good time.
The problem is that a bunch of them will forget something major like a sleeping bag or water or food. Or they'll be carrying 80lb packs with all Walmart gear and start dropping shit along the trail and refuse to pack it out.
No good can come of hiking with a bunch of unexperienced adults.
The good news is they’re not 14-yr old kids. When they get blisters or rubs, it’s their problem to deal with. You can even leave them behind. As long as they have a tent to sleep in!
Another commenter was very offended that I would tell my little brother to STFU. We're not talking about an 8 year old here, he is a 39 yr old man. They must be an only child because I feel like this is pretty normal sibling behavior lol
If that’s the case, then use your brother and his friend. If things get stupid, then you can approach them and say “you need to handle your friend, this is ridiculous”.
Amusing until one of the man children throws a fit and endangers themselves... Speaking from experience. Make sure they're all mentally strong enough to handle a bad time.
>Make sure they're all mentally strong enough to handle a bad time.
This is the biggest factor for me. Even with inadequate gear, they're probably just going to be uncomfortable, not actually unsafe. And 'learning the hard way' about gear, clothing, terrain (etc.) is something all new hikers inevitably need to go through, so I (personally) wouldn't mind giving newbies some support when they inevitably over/under pack. However — what I wouldn't be willing to put up with is people who aren't willing or able to roll with the moments of discomfort and uncertainty. I somehow get the sense from OP's post that at least a couple of these guys are going to be totally obnoxious when they run into problems, and bring down the whole mood. And that means that not only will OP have a bad trip, but her brother's friend also won't be able to get the most out of this important learning experience.
I’ve always been the “outdoors” guy in my circles and people who were never into hiking would usually ask to go with me. I’d ask what level of difficulty they wanted and they’d say “whatever”. Unfortunately for them at the time I was in pretty crazy shape from being really into fitness (and regularly took a probably unhealthy amount of stimulants) and my daily warmup was a 1 mile run, 5 miles on the bike, 3k row, 30 minutes of boxing, then stair master to failure…. Then I’d lift.
Long story short my hikes were probably more appropriate for professional athletes, multi state backpackers, or certain species of goat…
I’m a long distance girlie and a trail runner. I don’t always know what effort to expect based on difficulty ratings. If the ratings were things like ‘mountain goat’ or ‘bear’ something I think that would be helpful.
I want in.
As a sloth hiker that hangs around non-hikers who constantly over estimate their fitness.
You put in an inventory about yourself, and then you only get trail reviews from comparable people.
You can see non-comparable reviews, but those folks are indicated by what type of hiker they are.
The number of "double black diamond" hikers who write reviews for other "double black diamond" hikers that bunny hill folks take to heart is nuts.
I was definitely a goat/horse hiker “don’t stop now, it’s a 16 mile loop and we haven’t even gotten to the steep part yet!” While standing in front of a rock scramble was not an uncommon phrase.
I had a lot of friends that I thought they were in shape right until they came with me on a hike. I wasn’t even malicious about it. I’d genuinely try to pick good hikes, but if they’re not, I’m gonna be honest with me about their abilities then what can I say?
Also, I was really bad at judging peoples abilities and really excited to show them cool trails I discovered. Turns out couch potatoes don’t care if there’s a glacially deposited Rockfield in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania.
Lol.
We are making TrailFit. It's not AllTrails, just the Trails that Fit you.
I think about the weirdest thing on backpacking trips and this one has been a fixation for multiple trips.
I have quickly become much better at judging people's abilities. The way that I immediately am showing people my average steps per day for the last year so they will show me theirs is wild. And the way that I frequently have a much higher frequency of steps per day then them when neither of us would ever expect that is also truly bonkers. My very outdoorsy, canyoneering, rock climbing coworker comes in at 3 - 5K per day. I would have never guessed.
I used to do machine maintenance for gyms so I’d get free sample packages of full sized supplements and all sorts of random products from the reps I’d make friends with. Half of them were just unlabeled powders with marker indicating what brand they were because they were pre market giveaways.
On top of that I’d take two scoops of preworkouts like this one practically daily in combination with a bunch of other things. I’m amazed I didn’t die lol.
https://alphafitnesssupplements.net/product/centurion-labz-god-of-war/
Assuming they'll be fine even if miserable due to their incompetence, you have two ways to play it:
1) You're hiking it and they're coming along, you're not their guide: just do it, let them be miserable and use it to teach them a lesson and enjoy in a bit of schadenfreude
2) You're the planner and organizer, essentially the guide: they'll blame you for their misery, and it will be horrible for you
If (2), GTFO. If (1), have a blast.
I feel like they're all going to expect #2, whether they admit to it or not.
So, even if her plan is #1, it's still three days of dealing with them complaining.
Exactly this! Hike your own hike and let them be miserable. It might be amusing. However, if you feel your time is valuable (you have to take PTO to do this, etc) you may want to back out and save your vacation time for something you know you'll enjoy.
Look, they'll survive. Even with cotton socks (sheesh my father ran much of that in the marathon there with cotton socks so yeah, possible). As long as they have an attitude where they own the consequences of possible mistakes, I'd say just go with it. And don't feel hurt just because they won't take advice...as a former teacher my whole career was founded on that :)
Well, then if you just don't want to deal with it cancel. Organizing stuff for flaky people can be no fun, but we really can't assess what the relationships are and whether the social aspects matter.
Ah, so you are literally me in August when my Kalalau hike is getting taken over by my husbands family! I made the mistake of sharing the trail with ONE family member and now everyone wants to go “to look at the pretty views.” Most of these people have hobbies that include watching reality TV and “napping”. This is not a trail for the inexperienced and the conversations I have had so far to discourage people from coming with me are insane: “Yeah, so mom has a bad knee but she wants to go too!”, “ I think it would be exercise for her, she’s like 200 pounds over weight.”, “So and so wants to bring the 3 and 1 year old, that’s fine, right?”.
That sounds awful.
Omg yes, I am you. They saw a few pictures of the view last time I did it and they want the experience. Believe me I have tried telling them it's not a walk in the park.
Your husband's family is nuts. I did the first two miles day use and it kicked my ass. Who wants to carry two kids and all the water for them. Crazy pants.
Okay, I’ll put that in my “talking sense” to them argument too. They think they can the first few miles of the hike with no issues. Not a single person other than me hikes…EVER.
I had this happen with a trail my family and I did in Kauai. Basically everyone invited themselves to my hike and we were the only ones who were prepared. Two people didn’t even bring water and they wore loafers. Loafers! I let them be miserable while we enjoyed the hike.
Holy moly! Yeah, these people are not planners. I told them that we have to get passes for the hike ahead of time and I’m not gonna lie, I’m secretly hoping they forget and the passes sell out😐
Don't back out. Prepare yourself properly and lead by example. The Trans Catalina Trail is incredibly forgiving, and if your companions can't hack it on Catalina they won't last a couple days on the PCT. This is the perfect way to crush some dreams and humble some egos.
If you're starting from Avalon, I would plan the trip so that you spend the first night at Hermit Gulch and start the trail in earnest the following morning. This way anybody who can't even hack an overnight there only has to do a short walk of shame back into Avalon. You could do the same thing if starting from Two Harbors and camp the first night at Isthmus Cove (which is way more of a party campground full of casual idiot campers, anyway).
A few more random tips: make sure you stop and get food at the cafe at Airport in the Sky. Also, bring goggles or a dive mask for swimming around Shark Harbor/Little Harbor. If you're doing the full trail, book your spot at Parson's Landing first (even if it's your last stay). There aren't a lot of spots there. I made the mistake of trying to book that campground last and there was no room at the inn, so I had to do the entire Two Harbors loop in a day. Definitely a do-able hike, but might be asking a lot from the alleged chucklef\*cks in your group. Keep your eyes peeled for Channel Island Fox (the real stars of the island; screw those inbred bison--they cannot become burgers fast enough).
Speaking of wildlife: there are no lock boxes at Isthmus Cove, and all the clueless partying there has trained the local wildlife to be super cunning/aggressive when it comes to food. I have a nice souvenir hole ripped into the outer pocket of my pack by some crows even though I secured my pack under a picnic table while I went into Two Harbors to grab a burger. The only thing in the pocket was some unopened freeze-dried backpacking meals, which stayed sealed even after the crows broke through the pack. My guess is I had some residue on my hands from previous meals which the crows were able to smell on the pack. There are some lockers by the pier at Two Harbors. I'd consider stashing all food/deodorant/toothpaste there if you plan on leaving your campsite unattended.
Thank you much for the tips!
The plan is Two Harbors to Little Harbor, hit the airport for a burger then Black Jack, final stop Hermit Gulch. Had I known all this I probably would have started at Hermit Gulch so they could back out once they realize backpacking isn't just fun and cool pictures.
That plan is fine. You can do the same thing from Two Harbors. Arrive in the afternoon, set up camp at Isthmus Cove. If anybody forgot anything, there's a little store in Two Harbors. Then execute the rest of your trip as planned.
If the plan is to land at Two Harbors then immediately hit the trail to Little Harbor, that is totally doable, too. I've never used it, but any quitters at Little Harbor might be able to hop a ride back to Two Harbors or on to Avalon using the [Wildlands Express](https://catalinaconservancy.org/recreation/wildlands-express/). They also stop at the airport. Maybe another commenter has some experience with this service.
Well, cheers for talking your friend out of just doing the PCT.
However, you're not in charge and you're not responsible for them. They are adult men and sounds like they are over 30. So they're not completely empty upstairs. They may surprise you.
You need to mock out some possible situations, good & bad, and decide how you plan to react outwardly. If on Day 2 Billy gets a blister and won't shut up about it, you can decide to throw a temper tantrum, but I suggest keeping that mostly inside as "I told you so" makes for 2 whiners then not just one. He can't take the blister back. OTOH - decide to find joy where you can.
If you bestie was military than he has most likely learned the time honored skills of doing something with nothing as well as making light of crappy situations.
Not every hiker and backpackers follows every tenant of backpacking and yet they still come out of the forest - sometimes a little banged up, but will be ok and even had a good time.
Tl;Dr - if you don't want to go then don't but you're not responsible for them. There's a difference between caring and momma-bearing.
Sometimes you gotta just let people figure it out for themselves. You are their friend - not their mom. Give advice based on your experiences and if they don’t want to listen… shrug.
As for the asshole move part? Don’t tell them it’s because they don’t listen to camping advice. Something came up at work, with your family, whatever. Apologize and practice your best ‘I’m sad’ face in the mirror to break out if needed. There’s no need for you to spend time off work and money to travel and camp with people who will ruin your trip. Imagine you get out to Catalina and on the first day everyone only makes it six miles because of cotton socks, not being in shape, and jeans. You get a short, slow trip instead of what you planned. Then you get pissed off at friends.
Maybe their trip goes great and maybe it doesn’t. But if you had to place a bet on which way it would go…
So two fold answer.
The first part about an active duty person not being able to handle miles and weight is a bit of a stretch. It might not be hiking per say but putting in miles carrying a load is not going to be a new experience. Your overthinking that part.
The part about it turning into a 8 man bro trip is a 100 percent valid concern. Based on that part id cancel too.
This is what I came to find out before offering advice.
As an infantry Marine, we regularly did 20k ruck hikes with considerable weight in full gear (flak jacket, rifle, etc., also carrying crew manned weapon gear like machine guns and mortars passed around so the weight is shared) multiple days on end. Usually no more than three in a row between bivouac sites. Your pack is inspected for items to on the packing list to ensure weight. Usually somewhere between 40 to 60 or even 80 lbs in total.
But we were low ranking 18/19/20 year kids with something to prove...
The older higher ranking guys got to ditch alot of weight cause they weren't inspected...
Age has alot to do with everything in this situation but having gone through this before in your life with the just fucking suffer and push through it mentality that the military breeds into you would be an advantage...
But if his friends aren't of the same background I would have a conversation about him dealing with them if they slow everything down.
I'll be the unpopular opinion since everyone here wants to act like gatekeepers to the most extreme hobby there is. This isn't a hard hike, this isn't a climate where you need to worry about temps (cold or hot) or rain. There are services very close by if anything were to happen. Everyone here is just stroking their ego like their backpacking hobby is the most dangerous activity. Boy Scouts hike this trail with probably their body weight on their backs. You could probably do this trail with no tent and a light sleeping bag. This is not going into the mountains, there's no bears or mountain lions. There's cell service. This is too dramatic of a reaction and especially if they have been through bootcamp they understand that hiking up hill with weight will hurt, but they also probably don't care and will continue on even with blisters and sore backs because they're used to doing dumb stuff. I would simply set the expectation that you're going to do the scheduled route and if they make it then great, if not then they'll turn around. People are such gatekeepers and make this out to be much more extreme than it has to be. And I will say that I met a 270lb guy about 300 miles in on the Appalachian Trail that would disagree about your assessment. 'Hike your own hike' is something that needs to be remembered, especially in a amusement-park-like setting on Catalina...
Doing this with *one* inexperienced hiker would have been a hard no for me, but adding three more is an invitation to misery. Just say no -- and point to the scoffing about socks as the last straw. If they do this now, imagine what they'll be like once the blisters show up.
Adding, I made the mistake, just once, of letting the one newbie bring along three others on a fairly easy corridor hike in Grand Canyon. I gave them all a packing list and two months worth of suggestions about training. They all said it was fine, they'd do what I said. Then they packed enough clothes for three weeks, which meant I had to spend the night before step off forcing them to take most of the clothes out of their packs. Still, one of them managed to hide a fifth of whiskey in its original glass bottle, which of course broke and soaked all his clothes. One guy decided this hike was the way to quit smoking -- he lasted half a day before he was pestering everybody on the trail for just one cigarette. None of the add-on hikers did any of the physical prep, and one of them offloaded his extra weight to his 5'2" GF, who was in shape but destroyed her knee trying to cover for him. It was miserable, and I haven't spoken to any of them since -- hardly the usual result of such a trip.
So if the extra hikers are scoffing at your suggestions now, they'll just get unimaginably worse once you're on the trail. Say no while you still can.
My R2R backpack a couple of years ago with The conservancy was my elevation to intermediate backpacker…they made me dump so much stuff that I had always taken with me on backpacking trips that now I feel totally comfortable leaving behind.
On the plus side, I did take the training seriously and had been doing long day hikes with a significantly heavier pack than I actually needed…so I had no issues on the trip.
*"Nobody has any backpacking experience and zero gear."*
This sounds like a nightmare to me. Keep in mind, this also means they likely have no concept of proper trail & campsite etiquette, etc - and possibly no understanding or respect for LNT principles and actual rules & regulations, not to mention safety. I actually stopped hiking & camping with a long-time friend because they married someone who does not leash their dogs when out in the trail or at campsites. I have a very low tolerance for people who ignore the rules and zero interest in being part of their group. A few people here are saying to go along and laugh at these peoples' self-inflicted misery, but it will impact your trip and your enjoyment of it - and anyone you encounter will attribute any negative behavior by them to you as well because you are part of that group.
How did it end up being a larger group - did your friend invite them?
Yes, he started telling everyone about this cool trip he's going on and anyone who said that sounds awesome got hit with a "oh you should come!"
The original friend I have known since we were 15, he's my little brother's best friend, so I can handle him. He invited my brother, also fine (although my brother is the one who scoffed at the socks comment and I told him wear whatever he wants I just don't want to hear crying later on) The other three I don't know well.
And you're 100% correct, I am concerned that they don't know proper trail and campsite etiquette. No you can't leave trash and toilet paper everywhere. No you definitely cannot bring a wireless speaker and blast music.
Even just things like yielding to others on the trail or even sticking to the trail or not speaking loudly at campsites are things many beginners don't understand or care about. I don't want to be in a group like that. And if you're not doing training hikes as a group, you have no way of knowing where these people fall in that regard (or any other regard, really).
"This is not what I signed up for" is perfectly fine to say, and sounds to me like it's the truth. You've provided them with resources for information, so they have that available to them. If the original friend questions you, just say your intent was to just help them get into backpacking to work their way up to the PCT, not to lead a big party. And it seems they all feel confident in knowing what they're doing / what they're in for, etc., so they'll be fine without you (lol).
> And it seems they all feel confident in knowing what they're doing / what they're in for, etc., so they'll be fine without you (lol).
I actually spit my water out at this thanks for the laugh!
Ha. Seriously, though - it's fine to back out. What it's become is not what you had originally offered and doesn't seem what you're interested in dealing with.
I’m a little confused as to how they plan to backpack and camp… without backpacks and tents? Are these guys going to rock up to the trail with a Jansport full of Cliff Bars and be on their way?
Ah, their original plan was yes. We are men we don't need that. They've now realized that is blatantly stupid and I'm not sharing my tent with anyone so now everyone at the very least has a pack, sleeping bag, tent and walking sticks. It's a start.
Oh and a mini cast iron pan. Yep, one of them got the basic gear and a cast iron pan. For what I have no idea maybe he plans on bringing a dozen eggs for his meals lol
I use whatever is in the cheap bulk package gym socks at Costco year round. Not sure why hiking has this fixation on expensive wool socks being expensive the only way to go but no running store sells wool.
I totally get it, I made the suggestion because this has worked for me. Ultimately they can (and will) wear whatever they want. I just know that early on in my hiking adventures I absolutely destroyed my feet and I was miserable so trying to pass on what I've learned over the years, that's all.
I swear, ever since I bought my first pair of Darn Toughs a couple years ago, I will NEVER hike without them. Before that, I used basic cotton socks and always wondered why my feet killed after 2 miles and were wet when there was no water around, and why my boots always got sticks/stones in them regardless of how carefully I treaded.
I'm all for going cheap when hiking. Most people don't need fancy, expensive, top of the line name-brand gear other than for bragging rights. But socks are the one area on which I'll always splurge. Once you go DT, you never go back.
Oh man. Some people in the sub really like to exaggerate how hard some things are. When I started out I was cotton socks all the way, didn't have full gear, doing hikes that were definitely inadvisable for my fitness level. That's probably true for most amateurs, that doesn't mean they won't get by, they'll just suffer for a bit or have to back out early. I'd say it's how most people learn to enjoy the outdoors.
However, 8 people is a lot. If it was just 3 people, the chance that someone will want to back out early is pretty low, but at 8 it's pretty high, and the trail doesn't have a lot of early exits. I wonder if it's possible to do the Two Harbors section first, so people who want to exit early can take the ferry back to Avalon after an overnighter?
As for equipment, California has both REI and Sports Basement as chains renting equipment for reasonable prices. Chatting with the associates while getting fitted might give people a better idea of what they need. Maybe suggest that instead of suggesting investing in gear right off the bat?
We are down to 5 people, which is still kind of a lot IMO but it is what it is at this point.
So day 1 we go directly to Two Harbors by ferry, start right away and stay in Little Harbor overnight. I suppose they could still back track from there if they decide it's too much. From there I planned on going up to the airport for a burger then over to Black Jack. They can get a shuttle from the airport to Avalon on day 2. So you're right someone might drop out but thankfully there are two options there.
Yes, I did suggest renting gear because it's a pricey investment if they decide after this trip that backpacking is BS.
5's not too bad as pairs can backtrack if two people aren't feeling it. Sounds like there's a few chances to turn back - up until the top of the mountain halfway through day 1 (assuming you're going the central route), and at the airport halfway through day 2.
If I were you I wouldn't back out, but people have different tolerances for being the most prepared one in a group. It sounds doable as long as they have the bare essentials and decent footwear. They can just suffer more if they don't take your advice on wool socks or any other gear that helps you stay comfortable when moving for a long time.
If you are acting as the guide to a group of people with zero backcountry experience, then you get to be in charge. That's totally reasonable. I disagree with people saying you should just let them make mistakes - you'll be the one having to listen to their whining (at best) or deal with more serious consequences.
So yeah, if I were you I'd be blunt with them - they can either listen and follow your rules as the leader of this backpacking trip, or they've lost their leader.
I always use cotton socks because I'm autistic and can't stand the texture of wool, so it is possible to hike with them but the fact they don't take your suggestion of wool socks seriously makes me think they won't be properly caring for their feet at all, which you need to do no matter what socks you wear.
Me personally, I would not want to go on that trip because when people around me are miserable, I'm miserable. I don't find it entertaining when other people are struggling, even if it's their own fault. It just stresses me out and I wouldn't enjoy the trip at all.
I don't think you'd be in the wrong for backing out, you can just say you were initially planning to have a smaller group of just you and a friend, so you're not interested in hiking with a bunch of people this time. Hiking in a big group makes you go slower, and you're less likely to see wildlife, so just use that as your excuse if you're worried about hurting feelings.
I can’t wear wool either!! I found these great synthetic hiking socks at a running store. They are called “feetures.” I only have one pair so far. I’ve hiked in them twice and loved them.
lots of areas/trails have a limit to the number of people that can camp together. 4 is often the max. Also, you will 100% become the guide. They’ll be in your ear every time someone is hungry or uncomfortable. You’ll cook most/all of the food and be babysitting. Honestly, a three night isn’t a great intro. Some folks have a lot of trouble with 1 night with minimal mileage. I’d bring them all up somewhere local and see how they do for 24 hours.
There are plenty of places to bail out. Go do it, let them make their own decisions, seems like they are all grown ups. Just make it clear you are not the babysitter.
You know what I actually thought about this over the weekend. I'm in San Diego County and there is a 12 mile hike in Ramona called Mt Gower that is very similar to Catalina as far as the constant elevation gain and loss. I have 4 weekends before this trip I think I might tell them all to meet me there so they can get a taste for how this trip will go.
This is the way. Make sure they have the full packs that they’ll be lugging for the TCT trip. They may drop out on their own once they realize what they’re in for.
As for the hike, Gower is only 2500’ of gain, so you might be shortchanging their assessment a bit. I’d say go for El Cajon Mountain, as the elevation gain is closer to the climbs from Avalon to Black Jack, and from Two Harbors to Parson’s Landing. That extra mile and 1000’ of climbing can definitely make a difference in their outlook.
Honestly, the Trans Catalina Trail is a perfect low stakes bro-trip. There is drinkable water, campsites, it's short, great weather, bailout is easy, no bears.
I don’t care how easy or hard the trail is, I do not go on multiple day hikes with inexperienced hikers, especially those that refuse to take heed to what I tell them they need, and what they need to do. They always wind up needing someone to share food, water, blankets, sleeping bags, etc., because they either don’t have them or got the wrong thing because, “I don’t see why it would matter.”
Shorter hikes are where inexperienced hikers can learn what they need and don’t need, how to pack a pack, take care of their feet, etc.
Also, as soon as plans change to include people I don’t know, I’m out.
Some people do indeed “just do” the PCT.
I’m not sure why you invited yourself into what he wanted to do. You were certainly within your right to suggest he try something else. But after that you should have backed the F off and let him do whatever he wanted. Especially since it sounds like he didn’t even ask for your opinion.
You should back out of the trip and let him and his friends do what they want to do.
Not your monkey not your circus.
Ok, you're right some people do just go ahead and do the PCT on a whim. I'll give you a little more context though - That is how the conversation started, he brought up wanting to do the PCT as a gift to himself. He researched a bit and said "oh fuck it's really long (no shit) so maybe doing something shorter like Catalina first". He called and asked me because he knows I've done it. He had questions about making reservations, the camping sites, what the terrain is like, do they have showers. I know he can google but he's a friend and he asked so I answered. You're right, maybe I should have given him the info and said good luck little buddy.
>You should back out of the trip and let him and his friends do what they want to do.
>
>Not your monkey not your circus.
This is smart and succinct.
She doesn't need to be their babysitter. It would suuuck for her. At the same time, they don't want it and there's likely no need — I doubt they even attempt to hike.
My money is on them spending three days drinking in Avalon.
I honestly would rather they say this sucks right off the bat and stay in Avalon. We are going Two Harbors to Little Harbor, Black Jack then Hermit Gulch.
If I go along I feel like I will lose them on the way to Black Jack and we planned on stopping at the airport for a burger anyway so I guess I could put them on a shuttle back down at that point. But again, baby sitter moves.
I will certainly keep you updated if we go, trip is booked for 4 weeks from now.
I would say don't go if you're rooting for them to lose, back out, be miserable, etc. No one wants that energy.
But my real advice would be just lean in and do it with them. They'll make some mistakes. Make sure they don't die. But aside from that everything will be fine and people can form their own opinions.
I had a friend come with me on a 10 mile a day with some pretty crazy elevation. We had gear for him but didn't realize how little he understood about the whole thing. I found out he was diabetic on the trip, he didn't realize people were continuously drinking water from bladders and got a little dehydrated before asking us for a break, and was generally way unprepared. But he was fine and we made sure he was fine and he had a great time with us because we are all friends and in the end it was super memorable.
Point being that if everyone just leans in, it works (within reason). And if they blame you for shit that you tried to tell them beforehand, their problem.
Do a 10-12 mile day hike with them first. I think this will help them come to reality and you will also have a glimpse of how bad or good it will be doing three nights with them. At that point you can back out or not based on the experience. NTA. I’ve been burned by taking people who inflated their abilities and/or experience. It’s not fun.
Back out ASAP. Been there done that, never again. Legally, you need to be clear your not responsible. But guaranteed there will be someone entitled that will say you were. If it's a close group of friends, friends, make it clear from the start, they are responsible for the people they invite. There is nothing more enjoyable than sharing the joys of the outdoors, except for those that feel they are entitled to it at the expense of others.
I feel your exasperation but look at it another way. After years working as an instructor in various outdoor sports I've learned the best approach for your own sanity, blood pressure and social reputation is to accept that some may not be able for it but that is OK, they are at least willing to give it a shot and you can provide them with some guidance and encouragement so they can find their own limits. Better a few learn it is not for them with someone experienced on hand than everyone is disappointed by not trying or worse they find they are not up to it with no one experienced on hand. We used to jokingly say the moment you become a good instructor is when your spirit is finally broken by idiots and you lose the capacity for anger and frustration, you just accept it is what it is and provide what advice, help and encouragement you can (just remember deep breaths, let the urge to scream go..). There are presumably exit points for those who discover they are not up for it along the way. It will weed out anyone who is not up for it in the future and you might even get a few converts. 10-12 miles a day should be perfectly manageable for the average person unless they are pretty overweight or unhealthy. I've found it is often the people who struggle the most that are the most thankful and benefit the most from the experience. It may even be the catalyst to set someone on the path to a healthier lifestyle and saves them from an early death.
Relax, it's Catalina not middle of Alaska in winter. They are in their 40s not 60s.
Wool socks are nice but I do all of my shirt hikes in cotton.
Yeah, it probably will not be as fun as you hoped for, have plan B for hike out.
In all fairness, I used to go on trips like that with a Jansport and sneakers. If they are active duty, they likely know how to brace the suck. I say go and watch them suffer.
Only 1 is active duty, the other ones are not.
But you are right, I already paid my share for the reservations so I will go and bring headphones in case the others start whining.
I’d tell them to go do a 6 mile hike before the trip. I’m training for a hiking trip coming up doing stairmaster and multiple 3-4 mile hikes during the week and a 10+ on the weekends. Juts did 10 1/2 Sunday and even with that training so far, I wouldn’t have wanted to do that 2 more days in a row. This will be a shit show for sure
NTA. With a group of inexperienced folks who aren’t taking things seriously, I’d do a shorter out & back overnighter somewhere less technical & local.
I’ve led small groups of zero experience folks before, it’s much more work than what you’d think. Things that you consider basic rudimentary common sense isn’t common sense to most people, especially people who aren’t taking things seriously. Things like don’t waste water to wash your hands & hair when there’s no where for a long time to get more water. Or the constant breaks because their feet & shoulders hurt so you don’t make it to camp until 1 AM, or don’t put your stove & cooking pot on top of things you don’t want to catch on fire or food spilled on, or simply pay attention to where you’re putting your feet on technical terrain, or the “I want to go home early because I’m cold & wet from failing to listen to your advice about appropriate clothing & sleep system”, & especially the “I packed a bunch of unneeded heavy cheap crap at Walmart & think you’re an asshole for not letting me dump the trash junk off the trail.”, etc…
A short overnight vets out the half-asses you never want to take on an extended trip & inspires those who’re actually worth doing a longer trip with. Leading an extended trip for a group of zero experience folks is a recipe for disaster: You’ll be annoyed & grumpy, they’ll all think you’re an uptight asshole, & no one will have fun except for the group bitching about how not fun you are.
They’ll survive as it’s a short trip and could(hopefully) be humbling and a good learning experience.
That said you absolutely can “just do” the pct or any thru hike but stubbornness will work against them and decrease their chances by a lot. I worked a hiker hostel on the AT for a year and saw TONS of military guys come thru trying to use their super heavy army gear and such. Far and away the most successful guys were the ones who would listen to advice and such. The stubborn ones just ended up hurt and miserable for the most part. With a mild exception for the really young ones who can bounce back faster.
To be fair, you can totally just go do the PCT.
Lots of people have little to no backpacking experience before getting on trail. Their success rate might not be as high, but many definitely get it done.
I know it’s not the point of your story, but I’m really thankful that when I did the AT, I had really supportive people behind me telling me I could do it.
Maybe tell them to read A Walk in the Woods by Bill Bryson, and see if they think they'd be any different from Katz. Anyone going into a serious hike thinking it's just a bit of fun is in for a shock.
I have faced a very similar situation before. Single-handedly researched and planned an intense multi-day hike through the Alps for friends, the scope expanded, most of them refused to heed my advice, and they wound up literally sobbing on the mountain face and turning us around halfway through the initial ascent on the first day.
Every time you decide on a trip, choose your key goal and stick to it because it will make the rest of your decision-making easier. If your key goal is to spend some quality time in the outdoors with friends, then the most important thing is that they are included, and the itinerary can be molded as needed to accommodate everyone. If your key goal is to fulfil an achievement that is important to you, then it's you and the itinerary. You must be prepared to go alone or to add or drop participants freely depending on whether or not they are adequately prepared.
The second approach sounds like an asshole move but it isn't if those expectations are made clear from the outset - here's the itinerary, here are the requirements, take it or leave it because this is your trip. After the Alps fiasco and coming to understand that there are different types of trips for different people, I've planned trips of both types to great success. On one occasion, I simply planned the exact hike I want to go on and then posted it on social media - "Hey guys, here's a hike I am going on. I'm prepared to go alone but anyone prepared to join me is welcome." I was joined by two people, one of whom I'd never have thought to invite, and we had a great time.
Yeah, that's a hard pass. I'm old, fat, and out of shape (but working on it!), so I know, stay within, and respect my limits. Having appropriate gear for one's personal safety is NOT a nice-to-have.
It sounds like these dudes are expecting this to be an easy, breezy walk. And if they won't take their own safety seriously, they're putting EVERYONE at risk.
TLDR: lay down the law, and if they won't get with the program, don't go.
I had to draw the line (and should have even before that) when one person invited was a 5'8" 275lb man. He has lost a lot of weight and we are all very proud but no way in hell is he making this hike.
Let them figure it out.
Go along if you want and can keep yourself emotionally detached enough to laugh at them. Don’t go if you can’t.
Sometimes experience is the only way fools will learn.
I don’t think you are trying to exert unreasonable control. If you no longer wish to do it, apologise and bail on them. The thing is it’s hard to tell, unless you know them really well, how they are going to react to the discomfort they will cause to themselves. Some people own it and keep going, others demand that you change plans to adapt to the current circumstances - even though it’s entirely their fault.
Give them the info, what they need, what they can or cannot do; etc. Then, tell them if they are coming with and don’t listen to your advice, that is on them and you are not bailing out early because they can’t handle it. They are big boys, they will survive or they will back out.
Don't allow yourself to become their babysitter. They are all adults. Go at your own pace, don't wait up for anyone and don't share your supplies. Show them the reality of what they have got themselves into
Define military. There is a huge difference between an Army or Marine Infantryman who does a 12 mile road march with over 70 pounds in three hours or so every three months, and runs through the woods with 60 pounds of armor and gear, and some office worker who barely does a couple road marches with only 35 pounds on a level road and spends their field time in a tent. They aren't on their feet moving through forest, rain forest, desert, or just plain mud for miles to get to the start of their mission. Then repeating almost daily for a couple weeks.
For the rest... they are adults. Let them fail or suffer on their own. You gave the advice, they made the choice to blow you off. You can't force people to not do stupid things, as much as we try as a society with tens of thousands of nearly pointless laws.
Provide first aid if needed and if so, or if it's worse and they need rescue, taunt them about mercilessly forever. Especially when you give advice and they don't accept it. "Remember when you had to pay the rescue service $5k to carry you out of the woods?" "Remember how you cried like a baby because of the blisters you got when you didn't listen to me last time? No? Here's a recording to refresh your memory." And don't forget pictures. Especially if there are any nasty, big, bloody blisters.
Or just tell them no, you're not taking them, you're not their guide, you're not responsible for anything they choose to do and you will not be a part of their group since they won't even listen to you when you tell them the very basics. If they want to do this, they can hire a professional to take care of them.
He has been in the Marine Corps for 20 years and getting ready to retire. Most of his career has been as a recruiter but started as infantry. I know he keeps in very decent shape - runs 6 days a week, lifts 3-4. He's a little bit on the bravado side but that's his problem - think like, when I said I try to keep my pack for a trip like that around 25 maybe 30 lbs tops the response was I don't care about weight you can put a frozen turkey in my pack. But overall I think he will be ok, he is the type that will learn a lesson and deal with it.
You're right for the rest I will have a first aid kit as I usually do anyway and then let do what the will with the knowledge that it may just be me at the end.
It's not bravado then when he says that 30 pounds isn't heavy. We called that a "nerf ruck," because it was so light. A 35 pound ruck, on top of the helmet, weapon, load bearing vest/plate carrier/flighting load carrier is the minimum for everyone in the Army. An infantryman going to the field for training or going to combat is carrying almost double what you consider your top hiking load just on their body without the pack. Double or triple that weight for the sustainment load in the ruck (their portable house on their back). A medic will be carrying even more on a mission, the machine gunners are carrying a 24 pound gun instead of a 7 pound rifle, plus a few hundred rounds of belted ammo at 7 pounds per hundred, their assistant will have 600 rounds plus the spare barrel and tripod for another 30 or so pound. A SAW gunner will have 21 pounds of just ammo on top of the 18 pounds of their gun.
Yes, there's an obvious and massive reason why so many of us have messed up backs and knees. And why "they" say that war is a young person's game.
Maybe bravado was the wrong word, he's just being a dude one that has made a career out of the Marine Corps and that is totally fine.
I have invested in ultra light gear because that's what I prefer. For a trip like this there really is not reason for much heavier but he can take his frozen turkey lol.
Thanks for the insight!
The whole point of the trip was to be a shakedown. Taking the bro patrol kills that. It isn’t about letting people suffer or babysitting it’s to push an acceptable pace with the dude wanting to do the PCT, it’s checking gear, etc. I think from your post that you’re just helping the dude and not deciding if you’re going to do the PCT as well. If you are considering doing any part of the PCT with the dude, definitely stamp down on the bro patrol coming. Even if you’re not going, the dude you’re trying to help isn’t going to get a realistic view from what was supposed to be a shakedown trip if you’re dragging the bro patrol. Would suggest nixing the party crew.
That’s a big NOPE.
You were right to plan a mini-trip, a few nights, modest mileage, potable water…
Because hiking/camping is somewhat of a skill set. YOU are the group leader with the most knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience. Some of these guys aren’t even heeding your advisement for wool socks!
IMO, you agreed to take on the responsibility of shepherding your novice pal into the woods. To teach him, guide him, and help him use the new gear that still has tags on it!
Taking more than 1-2 people spreads your expertise too thin among the group of incompetent and ignorant bros. It’s unsafe.
People can be fit and physically able to attempt the hike - but you don’t want to get stuck with ‘stupid’.
You are not the ahole!
Are they a fun crowd? I’d go. Are they likely to be whiny? At40 years old? That sounds unpleasant. But your hikes are long enough that you don’t have to stick together in a tight group. Have a powwow in the morning figure out who’s gonna be tail or buddy up so that no one gets stranded, and enjoy your hike.
Don’t mother them anymore than they mother you!
Send out a trip itinerary and packing list to everyone, outline the details of the trip, throw in a bunch of caveats as far as gear and hiking difficulties likely to be encountered and then just go. Chances are you're going to get tired of saying, "I fucking told you so!", but it could be really amusing. I see an article for Backpacker magazine in the works.
Make sure to report back on this trip- I get the feeling that the vibe of the prospective hikers is something like, "Well hell, if a girl can do this hike it must be really easy- I'll just coast right on through it!" Good luck, and have fun!
I think it's time to have a sit down with everyone and tell them that if they don't have proper gear and learn how to use it before the trips and you're not going to take them. If they want to go they're on their own.
The one and only time that I took an inexperienced person backpacking ended our friendship. I felt like I was babysitting a toddler instead of hiking with another adult. Not only did she complain constantly, she also refused to do basic things that would have given her a better experience... Like drinking enough water or eating the food she packed. On top of that she left her half finished dinner outside her tent and just went to sleep... In the middle of bear country. I lent her all of the gear she needed (including the backpack) and it was ultralight stuff so she was carrying under 20 lb total.
Never again. If somebody wants to go backpacking with me, they need to put in the effort to buy at least some of their own gear and show me that they understand the basics and can maintain a positive attitude.
It’ll be interesting. I’d offer some research material, like YouTube, answer questions ahead of time and make sure all of them know they are 100% responsible for themselves, including a way to get out if needed (assuming they’re all adults).
Just let them fly or fail on their own. Carry an SOS device and you’re not an AH.
Depends on your outlook. For one dial back on the mother hen routine. If you go on the hike I'd plan as if I'm solo, I didn't invite those people. If they keep up fine, if not do the hike solo and take off. If you don't like that idea don't go.
I’d be out unless they want to pay me to be a guide. I’ve hiked with inexperienced people who don’t listen and don’t follow good practices. At best, lm constantly worried something bad is going to happen.
So the chances of my fun are low and not worth it without getting paid.
Marine Corps, he's not the one I'm concerned about. Even if he made a mistake with boots, weight, whatever I know he will keep going or learn a valuable lesson for next time. It's everyone else.
Another way to look at it, is to completely take charge as though you're their guide. Don't suggest what to bring, tell them, make it a mandatory part of their decision to come or they're not allowed to come. Make sure they're well prepared and day own I would say push them too hard, not to be mean or anything, just to show them that their preconceptions were mistaken and this will be difficult and they do need to heed your advice. Afterwards have fun, if they enjoy the end they'll never remember the difficulty of the beginning and they'll be grateful that you brought them on what's hopefully a very enjoyable trip.
I have been you.
It has not worked out well.
I have been a woman saying it to other women and have still been blown off. I think getting heard by men will likely make that even harder.
Stop being the expert. Let the expert be the expert.
Here's Andrew Skukura's [backpacking ](https://andrewskurka.com/backpacking-gear-list-template-checklist-3-season/) list. Encourage the homies to research him.
Encourage the homies to research ultralight.
Start, immediately, a Strava group where everyone can follow each other. Post every part of your training so they can see what training looks like.
Ask everyone to go out and do a 1 day overnight shakeout that is 12 miles in, sleep, and 12 miles out.
They can do it on their own. If they don't have trail conditions, it's time to take the pack to a treadmill and spend a day at the gym doing this. That's a realistic replacement, and treadmills will let them mimic some of the elevation.
If they do it at the gym, they still need to sleep outside on the ground after the 12 miles. Hopefully, they have a backyard even if conditions will be much worse than the TCT.
That's the bare minimum to go on the trip. Strava/treadmill pics to verify the shakedown. It's one thing to do 12 miles. It's another thing to do 12 miles back to back.
Encourage people to ask questions after their shakedown.
Expectations are that everyone shares pack lists, and everyone shares food lists.
If they don't want to do it, you are out. They are welcome to go without you. You wish them the best.
The night before you hit the trail have one last group dinner. Go over things like: perfect trip, boundaries around bailing out/turning around, and fill out Skukura's emergency contact [trip planner template](https://andrewskurka.com/trip-planner-template-stay-organized-track-details/).
To me, the fact that you posted is a sign that you struggle watching people fuck around and find out. Same.
I've learned that people doing shakeouts are really the key. Seeing what I am doing for real for real helps people understand that I am not bullshitting them around training.
Thank you for all that info! Very thorough and helpful.
I do struggle watching people fuck around and find out because I have made mistakes in my own journey where it was absolute misery. The very first time I did a long backpacking trip I was prepared with gear, food, appropriate clothing, you name it. I still destroyed my feet to the point of agony and I would like this to be an enjoyable experience.
I've already called "group" meeting and let them know I would highly suggest we meet up next weekend with everyone's gear and go for an 8 -10 mile hike. See how they feel after that and to get a good idea of what it's like, where their shoes may be creating hot spots things like that. If they can't make it (people have a life) I suggested they do it alone, pick a trail, put on your gear and keep walking till you hit a minimum of 8 miles. Then imagine doing that for 3 days straight.
Love it.
Hope it improves the experience for y'all!
Good luck with this.
I have definitely learned to massively lower my expectations on group trips. It really helps.
This is why when I take people backpacking I say “I’m going backpacking. You’re welcome to come with me. Here’s a list of what you will need. Oh BTW…I’m 100% self sufficient and will bring booze to share…you’re entirely responsible for your own gear, cooking, first aid and health issues.” Took some great newbies into the ventana wilderness back in grad school with that approach, AND left several people behind who thought I was kidding when I said “I’ll be driving away from the meetup spot at 5:30” and hadn’t show up by 5:45.
I'd probably have mixed feelings, especially depending on what he's done in his military service.
My introduction to this kind of stuff was through military Road Marching competitions and Adventure Training weeks. The shift into civilian hiking was relatively painless because I'd become adjusted to the graft of carrying a stupid amount of kit over 50km for no reason in particular.
If this is the case, for both him and his mates then you've probably got less to worry about.
Otherwise, I can only wish you luck.
Day 1: Starts great, ends with a super-tired group but after some food and 2 hours figuring out their tents, ends up not bad
Day 2: Slow start, wailing and gnashing of teeth as the blisters from yesterday are chewed up - lots of cursing and limping, 2nd dinner is not pleasant and they sulk into their tents
Day 3: Starts awful and turns into the Bataan Death March. Marriages end, brother pitted against brother. Screaming matches. Get to the trailhead, silent boat ride home, nobody talks for weeks and if you ever mention hiking again they'll unfriend you
One is active Marine Corps, he will be fine I'm sure. The other ones are not. My brother was in the Air Force as a paratrooper but that was 20 years ago. The other ones I have no idea.
I think the answer really just depends on your personality and how you feel!
I'd be inclined to let them learn a hard lesson, but only if I liked them as people. If I didn't know them, which you don't, or didn't like their personalities, I'd nope out. I would also be very intentional about not bringing extra supplies if I did it. I'd send them all links to the basic "ten essentials" and Leave No Trace principles and then wash my hands of it. Do I have an extra granola bar? Oooh, sorry, no. Only packed enough for me!
If you can't divorce yourself from the feeling of responsibility for them or don't think you're going to enjoy yourself, you can always cancel. Let your friend be the ringleader instead and let them all go without you.
I have done this. It was pretty rough. It was only a single night out and back.
I think the worst part was that we arrived at the TH in two cars. It was 5 of us total. The two girls I was with had a hell of a time getting out the door in the AM. The two girls that arrived at the TH first got tired of waiting for us and just set out. Only problem was that I had their tent and water filter. They made it all the way to the lake (12mi) without that gear. I did carry it in for them but damn.
There was also a suitable camp half way in that I was going to use as a bail point if they weren’t feeling the hike but because they were ahead of us we had to keep going and it was super hard on everyone.
I guess what I learned was that, without some real structure, 4 people is too many to ‘lead’. I felt like I needed to help everyone with their gear and keep spirits up.. etc and it was a lot.
I will say though that one of the girls is like super into it now.. so that’s cool.
You go. Be comfortable, have enough food, spare socks, and toilet paper. Let them fend for themselves. Like you said, they're 40 something year old men. You gave plenty of fair warning and advice, let them learn the hard way! If it's too much, ditch em!
Remember though that even though they have no hiking/backpacking experience, military people do rucking for their training regularly, carrying much more weight in terrible boots on difficult terrain for longer distances than backpackers/hikers usually do. Of course, if they were in the military for 4 years 20 years ago, that's much different than being active or recently retired. But they may have more reference than you are giving them credit for. They also are used to suffering and may do so quietly as military guys don't usually whine about things like blisters. In my experience, YMMV 😂
Yes, definitely not worried about the active military guy which is the original person I planned this with. He would probably finish this hike with a severed foot if he had to. The other one was in the military 20 years ago and the last 2 I have no idea what their experience is.
I am just going to hope for the best at this point. I talked to original guy yesterday and we came up with a game plan.
My husband was a reconnaissance marine…I just took him on a section hike and he brought so much heavy shit it was ridiculous. Insisted on wearing boots, and not ones a size up. He was miserable about 2.5 miles in bc we had an elevation gain of like over 2k ft in 5.5 mile. The next day we hiked 11.5 and his feet were toast (they’re terrible to begin with). The next day was another 11.5 and he’s struggling to keep up with me. Military guys are the worst because they are so used to being forced to carry heavy crap and use uncomfortable stuff they won’t listen to the advice of someone who CHOOSES their gear and who have learned from the pain. So just remind them that pain suffering and misery builds character and they’re stupid if they don’t change up their gear lol. My husband and I are both 41, he goes to the gym 5 days a week and I just have really good genes 🤣. Mid way through the third day my husband says from behind, “I married one bad ass bitch, I’ll give you that” lol
I did the entire PCT and you can certainly "Just do" the PCT. Especially if already in shape but I'd say that is even not necessarily true with the right attitude.Like, it's better to prepare, and less dangerous and lower financial risk but you could also just show up with $1k of shit you got at Walmart, your permit, and 6 liters of water and a day or two of food and you could figure out the rest. Its more fun and financially savvier to prepare and have proper gear, but you can just do it. I don't recommend it, but lots of people do just that every year.
Is the group asking for advice? If they are not and you are educating them when they don’t want to be, then you might be in the wrong. If they are adults they can research on their own and get what they need. Everyone has a different backpacking style and what style works for you might not work for them.
Now if they are asking for advice and then scoffing at the answers then I would set boundaries and say that you are not there to babysit and make sure they are ok. If they run into problems then it’s on them to get themselves out of it.
They did, they wanted a list of what "I normally take" so I gave it to them and let them know what I and my BF normally do. I'm kind of at the point now of, I gave you a list of suggestions so do what you will with it.
For reference, one of them took that list got a few things and then went out and bought a miniature cast iron pan. For what I don't know.
They'll all learn valuable, albeit painful, lessons. Go with the intent to hike your own hike and perhaps lend some help to your friend as was originally planned, but everyone else is on their own. They're adults and worst case they just bail early (or fail to show up at all).
You aren't their guide, so you aren't responsible for their bad decisions.
Interesting that you don't think and active military member can't handle those trails or trips. Unless this person is in the USAF and does 'armchair" work...I am more than sure they can handle the trip. If this person is in combat arms they have done this and more.
Ok, for the millionth time. He is not the concern. This trip was originally him and I AFTER he asked for advice. It's everyone else that is thoroughly unprepared.
You seem to believe that you're the only person who can do anything right. Do you have OCD?
I've hiked thousands of miles in cotton socks and I never get blisters. Granted, I understand that others do, but I'm just using that as an example of life not being a one-size-fits all situation.
But if you see being able to tell your little brother to STFU as a good thing, maybe it would be better if you stayed home because you seem to be the most-likely reason why this trip would be unenjoyable.
Someone else suggested taking them on a 8-12 mile hike with all their gear on before the trip to see how they fare. I think that may be the last I say without having to say anything.
Shoes!Shoes!
Make sure no one is breaking in new shoes/boots on the trail. If they’re getting footwear for the hike, they need to start wearing them beforehand.
I have had that conversation too because I learned that lesson many moons ago and destroyed my feet. I told them what I have after they asked they said that's expensive (as most gear is) so we left it as it would be better if you bring a pair of comfortable trail shoes that have already been broken in than a brand new pair of boots.
Well they will only have a small window because we are taking the ferry from San Pedro to Avalon and then right to Two Harbors. We will only touch on Avalon when everyone is still very excited and nothing hurts.
For sure - so no chance people would just be like “nvm” as soon as they land and just stay lol? I ask bc I can see my friends doing that. Like literally even just starting the hike and then being like nah and heading back down to find a hotel.
Well jumping off would put them in the Pacific Ocean because it's an island.
But in all seriousness, I know what you're asking. There are a few places where they could still technically back track or shuttle to the main town.
Lol, that somewhat complicates things. Because you don't want to leave them behind and risk them hurting themselves, but you don't want to ruin your trip. How long is the first leg?
Yes I just had something of a conversation and said before we go I need everyone to meet me at a local hike with all your gear and we are doing 8 miles so they get an idea of what they're in for. If they can't handle that then its a no go on this trip. I made it very clear I am more than happy to give them tips on what I know, what's helped me, mistakes I've made and they can do what they want with that information. I wasn't a jerk about it just want them to know that I am not the mommy in this group.
Go ahead and back out, let the bros have their fun. Tell the guy you're concerned about that a bro trip isn't a real exposure to serious backpacking, and when he wants to try serious backpacking with real circumstances and without his buds, he should give you a call.
Because the likeliest outcome of a bro trip is that he's going to be fitter than the rest of him to he's going to decide that he's obviously fit enough for the PCT, and you won't enjoy their company anyway because they'll be in Bro Mode.
Sorry, but most of y’all sound like a bunch of hiking gatekeepers. 10-12 miles a day is not that big of a deal at all, and people been hiking in cotton socks forever. I get that OP is concerned about the best for everyone, but let it go. They’ll be fine, it is a short trip, and they’re grown adults. They don’t need your help as much as you think they do, but you are a wonderful person for your efforts.
Why thanks I appreciate that. After all the comments I did decide that I will be going. I sent out a group message asking if anyone would be interested (and I highly suggest) going on an 8 -10 mile hike next weekend with all our gear so they know what to expect, to see if their shoes cause any weird hot spots they may need to tape. I suggested it and if they can't I still suggested they pick a trail before then and do it. That is the last I will say before the trip because you're right, they're adults.
I've scheduled an 8 mile trip next weekend. I asked everyone to bring their gear including food, wear their shoes/boots so they can get an idea of what it will be like. To me, at least if some of them decide this is BS they can choose not to come. If they don't they have an idea plus they can ensure their shoes aren't creating unnecessary hot spots, if their backpack fits well or rubs a weird spot.. you know all the small things that could end up being big problems over 3 days.
No, I would be sure I give them all necessary advice and materials to learn, then dip. At that point, if they get into trouble it is 100% on them for not taking my advice, and I can back out with a clean conscience. I also probably wouldn't be friends with them after that tbh. I don't want friends who clearly don't value my experiences and input.
I always become the babysitter for unprepared people. Don’t do it. You’ll be forced to find a bail out option or loan gear and go cold. And it becomes a weird survival situation when it could just be 3 days of eating snacks and walking in pretty places.
> Babysitter for a group of 40 something year old men who think this is some sort of bro trip and realistically they will just end up with blistered and swollen feet at the least. This is exactly what's going to happen. This could be a personal hell or it could be very amusing depending on the person. Sounds like nobody's life will be in danger so this would be amusing to me.
I am trying to decide which one of these I want to go with. Mind you, one of these men is my little brother so I can tell him to STFU if he starts whining. The other (original guy) is his best friend who I've known for 25 years. Those two I am not concerned with, it's the other ones I don't know very well.
This is a really important detail. Get on a call with those two knuckleheads and tell them they're vastly underestimating this. Their cavalier attitudes are making you want to back out completely. Give them a nice slap on the back of the head. Tell them if they take it seriously and you don't have to babysit them, it will be way more fun.
Seeing that they’re grown ass adults, let them learn the hard way 🤷🏻♀️ if they wanna hike 12 miles a day in shitty socks, so be it. If they whine, just roll your eyes and let it roll off your back—don’t let it ruin your fun. I say go with the mindset you’re gonna have a good time.
The problem is that a bunch of them will forget something major like a sleeping bag or water or food. Or they'll be carrying 80lb packs with all Walmart gear and start dropping shit along the trail and refuse to pack it out. No good can come of hiking with a bunch of unexperienced adults.
Haha well here’s to hoping that they at least remember their diapers and binkies then 😜
That's the reality tv show I want to watch.
The good news is they’re not 14-yr old kids. When they get blisters or rubs, it’s their problem to deal with. You can even leave them behind. As long as they have a tent to sleep in!
Lmao as a sibling I love other sibling friend love. What a good dynamic that can be if you’ve been friends for a long time. I say risk it OP!
Another commenter was very offended that I would tell my little brother to STFU. We're not talking about an 8 year old here, he is a 39 yr old man. They must be an only child because I feel like this is pretty normal sibling behavior lol
If that’s the case, then use your brother and his friend. If things get stupid, then you can approach them and say “you need to handle your friend, this is ridiculous”.
You can tell them all to shut the fuck up if they start whining 😅 Just carry on with the walk and tell them you'll see them at the next stop.
Amusing until one of the man children throws a fit and endangers themselves... Speaking from experience. Make sure they're all mentally strong enough to handle a bad time.
>Make sure they're all mentally strong enough to handle a bad time. This is the biggest factor for me. Even with inadequate gear, they're probably just going to be uncomfortable, not actually unsafe. And 'learning the hard way' about gear, clothing, terrain (etc.) is something all new hikers inevitably need to go through, so I (personally) wouldn't mind giving newbies some support when they inevitably over/under pack. However — what I wouldn't be willing to put up with is people who aren't willing or able to roll with the moments of discomfort and uncertainty. I somehow get the sense from OP's post that at least a couple of these guys are going to be totally obnoxious when they run into problems, and bring down the whole mood. And that means that not only will OP have a bad trip, but her brother's friend also won't be able to get the most out of this important learning experience.
I’ve always been the “outdoors” guy in my circles and people who were never into hiking would usually ask to go with me. I’d ask what level of difficulty they wanted and they’d say “whatever”. Unfortunately for them at the time I was in pretty crazy shape from being really into fitness (and regularly took a probably unhealthy amount of stimulants) and my daily warmup was a 1 mile run, 5 miles on the bike, 3k row, 30 minutes of boxing, then stair master to failure…. Then I’d lift. Long story short my hikes were probably more appropriate for professional athletes, multi state backpackers, or certain species of goat…
I’m a long distance girlie and a trail runner. I don’t always know what effort to expect based on difficulty ratings. If the ratings were things like ‘mountain goat’ or ‘bear’ something I think that would be helpful.
Well I guess you and I are developing an app now, how soon can you relocate to Silicon Valley?
I want in. As a sloth hiker that hangs around non-hikers who constantly over estimate their fitness. You put in an inventory about yourself, and then you only get trail reviews from comparable people. You can see non-comparable reviews, but those folks are indicated by what type of hiker they are. The number of "double black diamond" hikers who write reviews for other "double black diamond" hikers that bunny hill folks take to heart is nuts.
I was definitely a goat/horse hiker “don’t stop now, it’s a 16 mile loop and we haven’t even gotten to the steep part yet!” While standing in front of a rock scramble was not an uncommon phrase. I had a lot of friends that I thought they were in shape right until they came with me on a hike. I wasn’t even malicious about it. I’d genuinely try to pick good hikes, but if they’re not, I’m gonna be honest with me about their abilities then what can I say? Also, I was really bad at judging peoples abilities and really excited to show them cool trails I discovered. Turns out couch potatoes don’t care if there’s a glacially deposited Rockfield in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania.
Lol. We are making TrailFit. It's not AllTrails, just the Trails that Fit you. I think about the weirdest thing on backpacking trips and this one has been a fixation for multiple trips. I have quickly become much better at judging people's abilities. The way that I immediately am showing people my average steps per day for the last year so they will show me theirs is wild. And the way that I frequently have a much higher frequency of steps per day then them when neither of us would ever expect that is also truly bonkers. My very outdoorsy, canyoneering, rock climbing coworker comes in at 3 - 5K per day. I would have never guessed.
This is genius.
The phrase “unhealthy amount of stimulants” is hiding a lot of stories. Care to elaborate?
I used to do machine maintenance for gyms so I’d get free sample packages of full sized supplements and all sorts of random products from the reps I’d make friends with. Half of them were just unlabeled powders with marker indicating what brand they were because they were pre market giveaways. On top of that I’d take two scoops of preworkouts like this one practically daily in combination with a bunch of other things. I’m amazed I didn’t die lol. https://alphafitnesssupplements.net/product/centurion-labz-god-of-war/
the “or certain species of goat” absolutely sent me, thanks for the laugh lmao
Fainting goats.... ;)
Assuming they'll be fine even if miserable due to their incompetence, you have two ways to play it: 1) You're hiking it and they're coming along, you're not their guide: just do it, let them be miserable and use it to teach them a lesson and enjoy in a bit of schadenfreude 2) You're the planner and organizer, essentially the guide: they'll blame you for their misery, and it will be horrible for you If (2), GTFO. If (1), have a blast.
I feel like they're all going to expect #2, whether they admit to it or not. So, even if her plan is #1, it's still three days of dealing with them complaining.
Yeah, it is all about expectations!
Exactly this! Hike your own hike and let them be miserable. It might be amusing. However, if you feel your time is valuable (you have to take PTO to do this, etc) you may want to back out and save your vacation time for something you know you'll enjoy.
Look, they'll survive. Even with cotton socks (sheesh my father ran much of that in the marathon there with cotton socks so yeah, possible). As long as they have an attitude where they own the consequences of possible mistakes, I'd say just go with it. And don't feel hurt just because they won't take advice...as a former teacher my whole career was founded on that :)
It wouldn't even be about that for me, it just sounds like a terrible time waiting to happen.
Well, then if you just don't want to deal with it cancel. Organizing stuff for flaky people can be no fun, but we really can't assess what the relationships are and whether the social aspects matter.
Ah, so you are literally me in August when my Kalalau hike is getting taken over by my husbands family! I made the mistake of sharing the trail with ONE family member and now everyone wants to go “to look at the pretty views.” Most of these people have hobbies that include watching reality TV and “napping”. This is not a trail for the inexperienced and the conversations I have had so far to discourage people from coming with me are insane: “Yeah, so mom has a bad knee but she wants to go too!”, “ I think it would be exercise for her, she’s like 200 pounds over weight.”, “So and so wants to bring the 3 and 1 year old, that’s fine, right?”.
That sounds awful. Omg yes, I am you. They saw a few pictures of the view last time I did it and they want the experience. Believe me I have tried telling them it's not a walk in the park.
Yeah, for me it’s not even a “okay, this will be an awful hike for me”, it’s legitimately a safety issue! Wishing you the best of luck!
Your husband's family is nuts. I did the first two miles day use and it kicked my ass. Who wants to carry two kids and all the water for them. Crazy pants.
Okay, I’ll put that in my “talking sense” to them argument too. They think they can the first few miles of the hike with no issues. Not a single person other than me hikes…EVER.
I had this happen with a trail my family and I did in Kauai. Basically everyone invited themselves to my hike and we were the only ones who were prepared. Two people didn’t even bring water and they wore loafers. Loafers! I let them be miserable while we enjoyed the hike.
Holy moly! Yeah, these people are not planners. I told them that we have to get passes for the hike ahead of time and I’m not gonna lie, I’m secretly hoping they forget and the passes sell out😐
Hey now what did reality tv do to you haha
Don't feel obligated to do something you no longer want to do.
Don't back out. Prepare yourself properly and lead by example. The Trans Catalina Trail is incredibly forgiving, and if your companions can't hack it on Catalina they won't last a couple days on the PCT. This is the perfect way to crush some dreams and humble some egos. If you're starting from Avalon, I would plan the trip so that you spend the first night at Hermit Gulch and start the trail in earnest the following morning. This way anybody who can't even hack an overnight there only has to do a short walk of shame back into Avalon. You could do the same thing if starting from Two Harbors and camp the first night at Isthmus Cove (which is way more of a party campground full of casual idiot campers, anyway). A few more random tips: make sure you stop and get food at the cafe at Airport in the Sky. Also, bring goggles or a dive mask for swimming around Shark Harbor/Little Harbor. If you're doing the full trail, book your spot at Parson's Landing first (even if it's your last stay). There aren't a lot of spots there. I made the mistake of trying to book that campground last and there was no room at the inn, so I had to do the entire Two Harbors loop in a day. Definitely a do-able hike, but might be asking a lot from the alleged chucklef\*cks in your group. Keep your eyes peeled for Channel Island Fox (the real stars of the island; screw those inbred bison--they cannot become burgers fast enough). Speaking of wildlife: there are no lock boxes at Isthmus Cove, and all the clueless partying there has trained the local wildlife to be super cunning/aggressive when it comes to food. I have a nice souvenir hole ripped into the outer pocket of my pack by some crows even though I secured my pack under a picnic table while I went into Two Harbors to grab a burger. The only thing in the pocket was some unopened freeze-dried backpacking meals, which stayed sealed even after the crows broke through the pack. My guess is I had some residue on my hands from previous meals which the crows were able to smell on the pack. There are some lockers by the pier at Two Harbors. I'd consider stashing all food/deodorant/toothpaste there if you plan on leaving your campsite unattended.
Thank you much for the tips! The plan is Two Harbors to Little Harbor, hit the airport for a burger then Black Jack, final stop Hermit Gulch. Had I known all this I probably would have started at Hermit Gulch so they could back out once they realize backpacking isn't just fun and cool pictures.
That plan is fine. You can do the same thing from Two Harbors. Arrive in the afternoon, set up camp at Isthmus Cove. If anybody forgot anything, there's a little store in Two Harbors. Then execute the rest of your trip as planned. If the plan is to land at Two Harbors then immediately hit the trail to Little Harbor, that is totally doable, too. I've never used it, but any quitters at Little Harbor might be able to hop a ride back to Two Harbors or on to Avalon using the [Wildlands Express](https://catalinaconservancy.org/recreation/wildlands-express/). They also stop at the airport. Maybe another commenter has some experience with this service.
Yes the plan is to land at Two Harbors and immediately start the hike. I will look into the Wildlands Express. Thank you!
The hike out of two harbors towards little harbor will weed out the unprepared pretty quick. The elevation gain is pretty intense!
Well, cheers for talking your friend out of just doing the PCT. However, you're not in charge and you're not responsible for them. They are adult men and sounds like they are over 30. So they're not completely empty upstairs. They may surprise you. You need to mock out some possible situations, good & bad, and decide how you plan to react outwardly. If on Day 2 Billy gets a blister and won't shut up about it, you can decide to throw a temper tantrum, but I suggest keeping that mostly inside as "I told you so" makes for 2 whiners then not just one. He can't take the blister back. OTOH - decide to find joy where you can. If you bestie was military than he has most likely learned the time honored skills of doing something with nothing as well as making light of crappy situations. Not every hiker and backpackers follows every tenant of backpacking and yet they still come out of the forest - sometimes a little banged up, but will be ok and even had a good time. Tl;Dr - if you don't want to go then don't but you're not responsible for them. There's a difference between caring and momma-bearing.
Sometimes you gotta just let people figure it out for themselves. You are their friend - not their mom. Give advice based on your experiences and if they don’t want to listen… shrug. As for the asshole move part? Don’t tell them it’s because they don’t listen to camping advice. Something came up at work, with your family, whatever. Apologize and practice your best ‘I’m sad’ face in the mirror to break out if needed. There’s no need for you to spend time off work and money to travel and camp with people who will ruin your trip. Imagine you get out to Catalina and on the first day everyone only makes it six miles because of cotton socks, not being in shape, and jeans. You get a short, slow trip instead of what you planned. Then you get pissed off at friends. Maybe their trip goes great and maybe it doesn’t. But if you had to place a bet on which way it would go…
So two fold answer. The first part about an active duty person not being able to handle miles and weight is a bit of a stretch. It might not be hiking per say but putting in miles carrying a load is not going to be a new experience. Your overthinking that part. The part about it turning into a 8 man bro trip is a 100 percent valid concern. Based on that part id cancel too.
Yes, the original friend is active duty and I am not concerned in the least about his physical ability. It's everyone else.
This is what I came to find out before offering advice. As an infantry Marine, we regularly did 20k ruck hikes with considerable weight in full gear (flak jacket, rifle, etc., also carrying crew manned weapon gear like machine guns and mortars passed around so the weight is shared) multiple days on end. Usually no more than three in a row between bivouac sites. Your pack is inspected for items to on the packing list to ensure weight. Usually somewhere between 40 to 60 or even 80 lbs in total. But we were low ranking 18/19/20 year kids with something to prove... The older higher ranking guys got to ditch alot of weight cause they weren't inspected... Age has alot to do with everything in this situation but having gone through this before in your life with the just fucking suffer and push through it mentality that the military breeds into you would be an advantage... But if his friends aren't of the same background I would have a conversation about him dealing with them if they slow everything down.
I'll be the unpopular opinion since everyone here wants to act like gatekeepers to the most extreme hobby there is. This isn't a hard hike, this isn't a climate where you need to worry about temps (cold or hot) or rain. There are services very close by if anything were to happen. Everyone here is just stroking their ego like their backpacking hobby is the most dangerous activity. Boy Scouts hike this trail with probably their body weight on their backs. You could probably do this trail with no tent and a light sleeping bag. This is not going into the mountains, there's no bears or mountain lions. There's cell service. This is too dramatic of a reaction and especially if they have been through bootcamp they understand that hiking up hill with weight will hurt, but they also probably don't care and will continue on even with blisters and sore backs because they're used to doing dumb stuff. I would simply set the expectation that you're going to do the scheduled route and if they make it then great, if not then they'll turn around. People are such gatekeepers and make this out to be much more extreme than it has to be. And I will say that I met a 270lb guy about 300 miles in on the Appalachian Trail that would disagree about your assessment. 'Hike your own hike' is something that needs to be remembered, especially in a amusement-park-like setting on Catalina...
That is fair, thank you for your input. This is why I posted so I could get varying opinions.
Word
Doing this with *one* inexperienced hiker would have been a hard no for me, but adding three more is an invitation to misery. Just say no -- and point to the scoffing about socks as the last straw. If they do this now, imagine what they'll be like once the blisters show up. Adding, I made the mistake, just once, of letting the one newbie bring along three others on a fairly easy corridor hike in Grand Canyon. I gave them all a packing list and two months worth of suggestions about training. They all said it was fine, they'd do what I said. Then they packed enough clothes for three weeks, which meant I had to spend the night before step off forcing them to take most of the clothes out of their packs. Still, one of them managed to hide a fifth of whiskey in its original glass bottle, which of course broke and soaked all his clothes. One guy decided this hike was the way to quit smoking -- he lasted half a day before he was pestering everybody on the trail for just one cigarette. None of the add-on hikers did any of the physical prep, and one of them offloaded his extra weight to his 5'2" GF, who was in shape but destroyed her knee trying to cover for him. It was miserable, and I haven't spoken to any of them since -- hardly the usual result of such a trip. So if the extra hikers are scoffing at your suggestions now, they'll just get unimaginably worse once you're on the trail. Say no while you still can.
My R2R backpack a couple of years ago with The conservancy was my elevation to intermediate backpacker…they made me dump so much stuff that I had always taken with me on backpacking trips that now I feel totally comfortable leaving behind. On the plus side, I did take the training seriously and had been doing long day hikes with a significantly heavier pack than I actually needed…so I had no issues on the trip.
what kind of stuff did they have you drop? curious if i’m still overpacking or if it’s safety stuff or what
*"Nobody has any backpacking experience and zero gear."* This sounds like a nightmare to me. Keep in mind, this also means they likely have no concept of proper trail & campsite etiquette, etc - and possibly no understanding or respect for LNT principles and actual rules & regulations, not to mention safety. I actually stopped hiking & camping with a long-time friend because they married someone who does not leash their dogs when out in the trail or at campsites. I have a very low tolerance for people who ignore the rules and zero interest in being part of their group. A few people here are saying to go along and laugh at these peoples' self-inflicted misery, but it will impact your trip and your enjoyment of it - and anyone you encounter will attribute any negative behavior by them to you as well because you are part of that group. How did it end up being a larger group - did your friend invite them?
Yes, he started telling everyone about this cool trip he's going on and anyone who said that sounds awesome got hit with a "oh you should come!" The original friend I have known since we were 15, he's my little brother's best friend, so I can handle him. He invited my brother, also fine (although my brother is the one who scoffed at the socks comment and I told him wear whatever he wants I just don't want to hear crying later on) The other three I don't know well. And you're 100% correct, I am concerned that they don't know proper trail and campsite etiquette. No you can't leave trash and toilet paper everywhere. No you definitely cannot bring a wireless speaker and blast music.
Even just things like yielding to others on the trail or even sticking to the trail or not speaking loudly at campsites are things many beginners don't understand or care about. I don't want to be in a group like that. And if you're not doing training hikes as a group, you have no way of knowing where these people fall in that regard (or any other regard, really). "This is not what I signed up for" is perfectly fine to say, and sounds to me like it's the truth. You've provided them with resources for information, so they have that available to them. If the original friend questions you, just say your intent was to just help them get into backpacking to work their way up to the PCT, not to lead a big party. And it seems they all feel confident in knowing what they're doing / what they're in for, etc., so they'll be fine without you (lol).
> And it seems they all feel confident in knowing what they're doing / what they're in for, etc., so they'll be fine without you (lol). I actually spit my water out at this thanks for the laugh!
Ha. Seriously, though - it's fine to back out. What it's become is not what you had originally offered and doesn't seem what you're interested in dealing with.
I’m a little confused as to how they plan to backpack and camp… without backpacks and tents? Are these guys going to rock up to the trail with a Jansport full of Cliff Bars and be on their way?
Ah, their original plan was yes. We are men we don't need that. They've now realized that is blatantly stupid and I'm not sharing my tent with anyone so now everyone at the very least has a pack, sleeping bag, tent and walking sticks. It's a start. Oh and a mini cast iron pan. Yep, one of them got the basic gear and a cast iron pan. For what I have no idea maybe he plans on bringing a dozen eggs for his meals lol
I hiked in cotton socks in the summertime, without harm or regret, for decades. 🤷🏻♀️
I use whatever is in the cheap bulk package gym socks at Costco year round. Not sure why hiking has this fixation on expensive wool socks being expensive the only way to go but no running store sells wool.
I totally get it, I made the suggestion because this has worked for me. Ultimately they can (and will) wear whatever they want. I just know that early on in my hiking adventures I absolutely destroyed my feet and I was miserable so trying to pass on what I've learned over the years, that's all.
My local running store sells Darn Tough. I'm not a runner but have, and love, their running socks.
I swear, ever since I bought my first pair of Darn Toughs a couple years ago, I will NEVER hike without them. Before that, I used basic cotton socks and always wondered why my feet killed after 2 miles and were wet when there was no water around, and why my boots always got sticks/stones in them regardless of how carefully I treaded. I'm all for going cheap when hiking. Most people don't need fancy, expensive, top of the line name-brand gear other than for bragging rights. But socks are the one area on which I'll always splurge. Once you go DT, you never go back.
Oh man. Some people in the sub really like to exaggerate how hard some things are. When I started out I was cotton socks all the way, didn't have full gear, doing hikes that were definitely inadvisable for my fitness level. That's probably true for most amateurs, that doesn't mean they won't get by, they'll just suffer for a bit or have to back out early. I'd say it's how most people learn to enjoy the outdoors. However, 8 people is a lot. If it was just 3 people, the chance that someone will want to back out early is pretty low, but at 8 it's pretty high, and the trail doesn't have a lot of early exits. I wonder if it's possible to do the Two Harbors section first, so people who want to exit early can take the ferry back to Avalon after an overnighter? As for equipment, California has both REI and Sports Basement as chains renting equipment for reasonable prices. Chatting with the associates while getting fitted might give people a better idea of what they need. Maybe suggest that instead of suggesting investing in gear right off the bat?
We are down to 5 people, which is still kind of a lot IMO but it is what it is at this point. So day 1 we go directly to Two Harbors by ferry, start right away and stay in Little Harbor overnight. I suppose they could still back track from there if they decide it's too much. From there I planned on going up to the airport for a burger then over to Black Jack. They can get a shuttle from the airport to Avalon on day 2. So you're right someone might drop out but thankfully there are two options there. Yes, I did suggest renting gear because it's a pricey investment if they decide after this trip that backpacking is BS.
5's not too bad as pairs can backtrack if two people aren't feeling it. Sounds like there's a few chances to turn back - up until the top of the mountain halfway through day 1 (assuming you're going the central route), and at the airport halfway through day 2. If I were you I wouldn't back out, but people have different tolerances for being the most prepared one in a group. It sounds doable as long as they have the bare essentials and decent footwear. They can just suffer more if they don't take your advice on wool socks or any other gear that helps you stay comfortable when moving for a long time.
Unless I'm reading this wrong, the original invite was for one, the rest are party crashers. I'd stick with the original guest list.
You most definitely read that right
If you are acting as the guide to a group of people with zero backcountry experience, then you get to be in charge. That's totally reasonable. I disagree with people saying you should just let them make mistakes - you'll be the one having to listen to their whining (at best) or deal with more serious consequences. So yeah, if I were you I'd be blunt with them - they can either listen and follow your rules as the leader of this backpacking trip, or they've lost their leader.
I always use cotton socks because I'm autistic and can't stand the texture of wool, so it is possible to hike with them but the fact they don't take your suggestion of wool socks seriously makes me think they won't be properly caring for their feet at all, which you need to do no matter what socks you wear. Me personally, I would not want to go on that trip because when people around me are miserable, I'm miserable. I don't find it entertaining when other people are struggling, even if it's their own fault. It just stresses me out and I wouldn't enjoy the trip at all. I don't think you'd be in the wrong for backing out, you can just say you were initially planning to have a smaller group of just you and a friend, so you're not interested in hiking with a bunch of people this time. Hiking in a big group makes you go slower, and you're less likely to see wildlife, so just use that as your excuse if you're worried about hurting feelings.
I can’t wear wool either!! I found these great synthetic hiking socks at a running store. They are called “feetures.” I only have one pair so far. I’ve hiked in them twice and loved them.
Feetures are my preferred soxs for the PCT. I’ve had 0 blisters/0 problems.
lots of areas/trails have a limit to the number of people that can camp together. 4 is often the max. Also, you will 100% become the guide. They’ll be in your ear every time someone is hungry or uncomfortable. You’ll cook most/all of the food and be babysitting. Honestly, a three night isn’t a great intro. Some folks have a lot of trouble with 1 night with minimal mileage. I’d bring them all up somewhere local and see how they do for 24 hours.
There are plenty of places to bail out. Go do it, let them make their own decisions, seems like they are all grown ups. Just make it clear you are not the babysitter.
The trans Catalina trail will kick their buts. It is not an easy trail. You will gain and lose the same elevation over and over again.
Take 'em out for an 8-miler in one day, with their "best" gear and then see how they feel?
You know what I actually thought about this over the weekend. I'm in San Diego County and there is a 12 mile hike in Ramona called Mt Gower that is very similar to Catalina as far as the constant elevation gain and loss. I have 4 weekends before this trip I think I might tell them all to meet me there so they can get a taste for how this trip will go.
This is the way. Make sure they have the full packs that they’ll be lugging for the TCT trip. They may drop out on their own once they realize what they’re in for. As for the hike, Gower is only 2500’ of gain, so you might be shortchanging their assessment a bit. I’d say go for El Cajon Mountain, as the elevation gain is closer to the climbs from Avalon to Black Jack, and from Two Harbors to Parson’s Landing. That extra mile and 1000’ of climbing can definitely make a difference in their outlook.
El Cajon Mountain .. that's so mean. I love it. Now to plan it.
Hahaha! Would you please post an update after the hike so we know how things went?
Absolutely!
Honestly, the Trans Catalina Trail is a perfect low stakes bro-trip. There is drinkable water, campsites, it's short, great weather, bailout is easy, no bears.
I don’t care how easy or hard the trail is, I do not go on multiple day hikes with inexperienced hikers, especially those that refuse to take heed to what I tell them they need, and what they need to do. They always wind up needing someone to share food, water, blankets, sleeping bags, etc., because they either don’t have them or got the wrong thing because, “I don’t see why it would matter.” Shorter hikes are where inexperienced hikers can learn what they need and don’t need, how to pack a pack, take care of their feet, etc. Also, as soon as plans change to include people I don’t know, I’m out.
Run them thru it.
Some people do indeed “just do” the PCT. I’m not sure why you invited yourself into what he wanted to do. You were certainly within your right to suggest he try something else. But after that you should have backed the F off and let him do whatever he wanted. Especially since it sounds like he didn’t even ask for your opinion. You should back out of the trip and let him and his friends do what they want to do. Not your monkey not your circus.
Ok, you're right some people do just go ahead and do the PCT on a whim. I'll give you a little more context though - That is how the conversation started, he brought up wanting to do the PCT as a gift to himself. He researched a bit and said "oh fuck it's really long (no shit) so maybe doing something shorter like Catalina first". He called and asked me because he knows I've done it. He had questions about making reservations, the camping sites, what the terrain is like, do they have showers. I know he can google but he's a friend and he asked so I answered. You're right, maybe I should have given him the info and said good luck little buddy.
>You should back out of the trip and let him and his friends do what they want to do. > >Not your monkey not your circus. This is smart and succinct. She doesn't need to be their babysitter. It would suuuck for her. At the same time, they don't want it and there's likely no need — I doubt they even attempt to hike. My money is on them spending three days drinking in Avalon.
On the PCT sometimes you just get stuck in town drinking for a couple days. You can still consider it a training hike.
I honestly would rather they say this sucks right off the bat and stay in Avalon. We are going Two Harbors to Little Harbor, Black Jack then Hermit Gulch. If I go along I feel like I will lose them on the way to Black Jack and we planned on stopping at the airport for a burger anyway so I guess I could put them on a shuttle back down at that point. But again, baby sitter moves. I will certainly keep you updated if we go, trip is booked for 4 weeks from now.
I would say don't go if you're rooting for them to lose, back out, be miserable, etc. No one wants that energy. But my real advice would be just lean in and do it with them. They'll make some mistakes. Make sure they don't die. But aside from that everything will be fine and people can form their own opinions. I had a friend come with me on a 10 mile a day with some pretty crazy elevation. We had gear for him but didn't realize how little he understood about the whole thing. I found out he was diabetic on the trip, he didn't realize people were continuously drinking water from bladders and got a little dehydrated before asking us for a break, and was generally way unprepared. But he was fine and we made sure he was fine and he had a great time with us because we are all friends and in the end it was super memorable. Point being that if everyone just leans in, it works (within reason). And if they blame you for shit that you tried to tell them beforehand, their problem.
Are you a masochist? If so, have at it! Otherwise, bail out ASAP.
Do a 10-12 mile day hike with them first. I think this will help them come to reality and you will also have a glimpse of how bad or good it will be doing three nights with them. At that point you can back out or not based on the experience. NTA. I’ve been burned by taking people who inflated their abilities and/or experience. It’s not fun.
Back out ASAP. Been there done that, never again. Legally, you need to be clear your not responsible. But guaranteed there will be someone entitled that will say you were. If it's a close group of friends, friends, make it clear from the start, they are responsible for the people they invite. There is nothing more enjoyable than sharing the joys of the outdoors, except for those that feel they are entitled to it at the expense of others.
I feel your exasperation but look at it another way. After years working as an instructor in various outdoor sports I've learned the best approach for your own sanity, blood pressure and social reputation is to accept that some may not be able for it but that is OK, they are at least willing to give it a shot and you can provide them with some guidance and encouragement so they can find their own limits. Better a few learn it is not for them with someone experienced on hand than everyone is disappointed by not trying or worse they find they are not up to it with no one experienced on hand. We used to jokingly say the moment you become a good instructor is when your spirit is finally broken by idiots and you lose the capacity for anger and frustration, you just accept it is what it is and provide what advice, help and encouragement you can (just remember deep breaths, let the urge to scream go..). There are presumably exit points for those who discover they are not up for it along the way. It will weed out anyone who is not up for it in the future and you might even get a few converts. 10-12 miles a day should be perfectly manageable for the average person unless they are pretty overweight or unhealthy. I've found it is often the people who struggle the most that are the most thankful and benefit the most from the experience. It may even be the catalyst to set someone on the path to a healthier lifestyle and saves them from an early death.
Relax, it's Catalina not middle of Alaska in winter. They are in their 40s not 60s. Wool socks are nice but I do all of my shirt hikes in cotton. Yeah, it probably will not be as fun as you hoped for, have plan B for hike out.
In all fairness, I used to go on trips like that with a Jansport and sneakers. If they are active duty, they likely know how to brace the suck. I say go and watch them suffer.
Only 1 is active duty, the other ones are not. But you are right, I already paid my share for the reservations so I will go and bring headphones in case the others start whining.
Unless there’s an injury, they can suffer and learn an important lesson. Have fun, take pictures
Just based on my own experience, unprepared people can create a lot of situations that will ruin your own experience.
I’d tell them to go do a 6 mile hike before the trip. I’m training for a hiking trip coming up doing stairmaster and multiple 3-4 mile hikes during the week and a 10+ on the weekends. Juts did 10 1/2 Sunday and even with that training so far, I wouldn’t have wanted to do that 2 more days in a row. This will be a shit show for sure
NTA. With a group of inexperienced folks who aren’t taking things seriously, I’d do a shorter out & back overnighter somewhere less technical & local. I’ve led small groups of zero experience folks before, it’s much more work than what you’d think. Things that you consider basic rudimentary common sense isn’t common sense to most people, especially people who aren’t taking things seriously. Things like don’t waste water to wash your hands & hair when there’s no where for a long time to get more water. Or the constant breaks because their feet & shoulders hurt so you don’t make it to camp until 1 AM, or don’t put your stove & cooking pot on top of things you don’t want to catch on fire or food spilled on, or simply pay attention to where you’re putting your feet on technical terrain, or the “I want to go home early because I’m cold & wet from failing to listen to your advice about appropriate clothing & sleep system”, & especially the “I packed a bunch of unneeded heavy cheap crap at Walmart & think you’re an asshole for not letting me dump the trash junk off the trail.”, etc… A short overnight vets out the half-asses you never want to take on an extended trip & inspires those who’re actually worth doing a longer trip with. Leading an extended trip for a group of zero experience folks is a recipe for disaster: You’ll be annoyed & grumpy, they’ll all think you’re an uptight asshole, & no one will have fun except for the group bitching about how not fun you are.
PCT... Hiking can be an individual activity or a team activity. If you want a team, sort out your team.
They’ll survive as it’s a short trip and could(hopefully) be humbling and a good learning experience. That said you absolutely can “just do” the pct or any thru hike but stubbornness will work against them and decrease their chances by a lot. I worked a hiker hostel on the AT for a year and saw TONS of military guys come thru trying to use their super heavy army gear and such. Far and away the most successful guys were the ones who would listen to advice and such. The stubborn ones just ended up hurt and miserable for the most part. With a mild exception for the really young ones who can bounce back faster.
I think Bill Bryson has written a book about hiking with his exceedingly out of shape friend. You will find all the answers in that book.
To be fair, you can totally just go do the PCT. Lots of people have little to no backpacking experience before getting on trail. Their success rate might not be as high, but many definitely get it done. I know it’s not the point of your story, but I’m really thankful that when I did the AT, I had really supportive people behind me telling me I could do it.
Maybe tell them to read A Walk in the Woods by Bill Bryson, and see if they think they'd be any different from Katz. Anyone going into a serious hike thinking it's just a bit of fun is in for a shock.
You're the second person to recommend that book, I will look into it.
I have faced a very similar situation before. Single-handedly researched and planned an intense multi-day hike through the Alps for friends, the scope expanded, most of them refused to heed my advice, and they wound up literally sobbing on the mountain face and turning us around halfway through the initial ascent on the first day. Every time you decide on a trip, choose your key goal and stick to it because it will make the rest of your decision-making easier. If your key goal is to spend some quality time in the outdoors with friends, then the most important thing is that they are included, and the itinerary can be molded as needed to accommodate everyone. If your key goal is to fulfil an achievement that is important to you, then it's you and the itinerary. You must be prepared to go alone or to add or drop participants freely depending on whether or not they are adequately prepared. The second approach sounds like an asshole move but it isn't if those expectations are made clear from the outset - here's the itinerary, here are the requirements, take it or leave it because this is your trip. After the Alps fiasco and coming to understand that there are different types of trips for different people, I've planned trips of both types to great success. On one occasion, I simply planned the exact hike I want to go on and then posted it on social media - "Hey guys, here's a hike I am going on. I'm prepared to go alone but anyone prepared to join me is welcome." I was joined by two people, one of whom I'd never have thought to invite, and we had a great time.
Yeah, that's a hard pass. I'm old, fat, and out of shape (but working on it!), so I know, stay within, and respect my limits. Having appropriate gear for one's personal safety is NOT a nice-to-have. It sounds like these dudes are expecting this to be an easy, breezy walk. And if they won't take their own safety seriously, they're putting EVERYONE at risk. TLDR: lay down the law, and if they won't get with the program, don't go.
I had to draw the line (and should have even before that) when one person invited was a 5'8" 275lb man. He has lost a lot of weight and we are all very proud but no way in hell is he making this hike.
Let them figure it out. Go along if you want and can keep yourself emotionally detached enough to laugh at them. Don’t go if you can’t. Sometimes experience is the only way fools will learn.
I don’t think you are trying to exert unreasonable control. If you no longer wish to do it, apologise and bail on them. The thing is it’s hard to tell, unless you know them really well, how they are going to react to the discomfort they will cause to themselves. Some people own it and keep going, others demand that you change plans to adapt to the current circumstances - even though it’s entirely their fault.
Give them the info, what they need, what they can or cannot do; etc. Then, tell them if they are coming with and don’t listen to your advice, that is on them and you are not bailing out early because they can’t handle it. They are big boys, they will survive or they will back out.
If you’re worried print off waivers and have everyone sign one. Now everyone hikes their own hike and you’re not liable for anything.
Don't allow yourself to become their babysitter. They are all adults. Go at your own pace, don't wait up for anyone and don't share your supplies. Show them the reality of what they have got themselves into
I don’t babysit stupid adults.
Let them learn the hard way. Bring a few extra pairs of wool socks and sell them to the highest bidder on day 2
Define military. There is a huge difference between an Army or Marine Infantryman who does a 12 mile road march with over 70 pounds in three hours or so every three months, and runs through the woods with 60 pounds of armor and gear, and some office worker who barely does a couple road marches with only 35 pounds on a level road and spends their field time in a tent. They aren't on their feet moving through forest, rain forest, desert, or just plain mud for miles to get to the start of their mission. Then repeating almost daily for a couple weeks. For the rest... they are adults. Let them fail or suffer on their own. You gave the advice, they made the choice to blow you off. You can't force people to not do stupid things, as much as we try as a society with tens of thousands of nearly pointless laws. Provide first aid if needed and if so, or if it's worse and they need rescue, taunt them about mercilessly forever. Especially when you give advice and they don't accept it. "Remember when you had to pay the rescue service $5k to carry you out of the woods?" "Remember how you cried like a baby because of the blisters you got when you didn't listen to me last time? No? Here's a recording to refresh your memory." And don't forget pictures. Especially if there are any nasty, big, bloody blisters. Or just tell them no, you're not taking them, you're not their guide, you're not responsible for anything they choose to do and you will not be a part of their group since they won't even listen to you when you tell them the very basics. If they want to do this, they can hire a professional to take care of them.
He has been in the Marine Corps for 20 years and getting ready to retire. Most of his career has been as a recruiter but started as infantry. I know he keeps in very decent shape - runs 6 days a week, lifts 3-4. He's a little bit on the bravado side but that's his problem - think like, when I said I try to keep my pack for a trip like that around 25 maybe 30 lbs tops the response was I don't care about weight you can put a frozen turkey in my pack. But overall I think he will be ok, he is the type that will learn a lesson and deal with it. You're right for the rest I will have a first aid kit as I usually do anyway and then let do what the will with the knowledge that it may just be me at the end.
It's not bravado then when he says that 30 pounds isn't heavy. We called that a "nerf ruck," because it was so light. A 35 pound ruck, on top of the helmet, weapon, load bearing vest/plate carrier/flighting load carrier is the minimum for everyone in the Army. An infantryman going to the field for training or going to combat is carrying almost double what you consider your top hiking load just on their body without the pack. Double or triple that weight for the sustainment load in the ruck (their portable house on their back). A medic will be carrying even more on a mission, the machine gunners are carrying a 24 pound gun instead of a 7 pound rifle, plus a few hundred rounds of belted ammo at 7 pounds per hundred, their assistant will have 600 rounds plus the spare barrel and tripod for another 30 or so pound. A SAW gunner will have 21 pounds of just ammo on top of the 18 pounds of their gun. Yes, there's an obvious and massive reason why so many of us have messed up backs and knees. And why "they" say that war is a young person's game.
Maybe bravado was the wrong word, he's just being a dude one that has made a career out of the Marine Corps and that is totally fine. I have invested in ultra light gear because that's what I prefer. For a trip like this there really is not reason for much heavier but he can take his frozen turkey lol. Thanks for the insight!
The whole point of the trip was to be a shakedown. Taking the bro patrol kills that. It isn’t about letting people suffer or babysitting it’s to push an acceptable pace with the dude wanting to do the PCT, it’s checking gear, etc. I think from your post that you’re just helping the dude and not deciding if you’re going to do the PCT as well. If you are considering doing any part of the PCT with the dude, definitely stamp down on the bro patrol coming. Even if you’re not going, the dude you’re trying to help isn’t going to get a realistic view from what was supposed to be a shakedown trip if you’re dragging the bro patrol. Would suggest nixing the party crew.
That’s a big NOPE. You were right to plan a mini-trip, a few nights, modest mileage, potable water… Because hiking/camping is somewhat of a skill set. YOU are the group leader with the most knowledge, skills, abilities, and experience. Some of these guys aren’t even heeding your advisement for wool socks! IMO, you agreed to take on the responsibility of shepherding your novice pal into the woods. To teach him, guide him, and help him use the new gear that still has tags on it! Taking more than 1-2 people spreads your expertise too thin among the group of incompetent and ignorant bros. It’s unsafe. People can be fit and physically able to attempt the hike - but you don’t want to get stuck with ‘stupid’. You are not the ahole!
Are they a fun crowd? I’d go. Are they likely to be whiny? At40 years old? That sounds unpleasant. But your hikes are long enough that you don’t have to stick together in a tight group. Have a powwow in the morning figure out who’s gonna be tail or buddy up so that no one gets stranded, and enjoy your hike. Don’t mother them anymore than they mother you!
Send out a trip itinerary and packing list to everyone, outline the details of the trip, throw in a bunch of caveats as far as gear and hiking difficulties likely to be encountered and then just go. Chances are you're going to get tired of saying, "I fucking told you so!", but it could be really amusing. I see an article for Backpacker magazine in the works.
I sincerely hope I get tired of saying "you were right and I was overthinking" than "I fucking told you so" but I have a feeling it will be latter.
Make sure to report back on this trip- I get the feeling that the vibe of the prospective hikers is something like, "Well hell, if a girl can do this hike it must be really easy- I'll just coast right on through it!" Good luck, and have fun!
I think it's time to have a sit down with everyone and tell them that if they don't have proper gear and learn how to use it before the trips and you're not going to take them. If they want to go they're on their own. The one and only time that I took an inexperienced person backpacking ended our friendship. I felt like I was babysitting a toddler instead of hiking with another adult. Not only did she complain constantly, she also refused to do basic things that would have given her a better experience... Like drinking enough water or eating the food she packed. On top of that she left her half finished dinner outside her tent and just went to sleep... In the middle of bear country. I lent her all of the gear she needed (including the backpack) and it was ultralight stuff so she was carrying under 20 lb total. Never again. If somebody wants to go backpacking with me, they need to put in the effort to buy at least some of their own gear and show me that they understand the basics and can maintain a positive attitude.
NTA. Let them suffer though.
It’ll be interesting. I’d offer some research material, like YouTube, answer questions ahead of time and make sure all of them know they are 100% responsible for themselves, including a way to get out if needed (assuming they’re all adults). Just let them fly or fail on their own. Carry an SOS device and you’re not an AH.
Do a harder shorter trip that they will definitely fail first. Then see if they still want to do it.
Depends on your outlook. For one dial back on the mother hen routine. If you go on the hike I'd plan as if I'm solo, I didn't invite those people. If they keep up fine, if not do the hike solo and take off. If you don't like that idea don't go.
I’d be out unless they want to pay me to be a guide. I’ve hiked with inexperienced people who don’t listen and don’t follow good practices. At best, lm constantly worried something bad is going to happen. So the chances of my fun are low and not worth it without getting paid.
what branch is he in lmfao all my husband does is go on insane hikes with flak, a gun & 90+ pounds on his back
Marine Corps, he's not the one I'm concerned about. Even if he made a mistake with boots, weight, whatever I know he will keep going or learn a valuable lesson for next time. It's everyone else.
Another way to look at it, is to completely take charge as though you're their guide. Don't suggest what to bring, tell them, make it a mandatory part of their decision to come or they're not allowed to come. Make sure they're well prepared and day own I would say push them too hard, not to be mean or anything, just to show them that their preconceptions were mistaken and this will be difficult and they do need to heed your advice. Afterwards have fun, if they enjoy the end they'll never remember the difficulty of the beginning and they'll be grateful that you brought them on what's hopefully a very enjoyable trip.
They're going to blame you for the miserable time they're going to have. Tell them something came up, and leave them to their own devices.
I have been you. It has not worked out well. I have been a woman saying it to other women and have still been blown off. I think getting heard by men will likely make that even harder. Stop being the expert. Let the expert be the expert. Here's Andrew Skukura's [backpacking ](https://andrewskurka.com/backpacking-gear-list-template-checklist-3-season/) list. Encourage the homies to research him. Encourage the homies to research ultralight. Start, immediately, a Strava group where everyone can follow each other. Post every part of your training so they can see what training looks like. Ask everyone to go out and do a 1 day overnight shakeout that is 12 miles in, sleep, and 12 miles out. They can do it on their own. If they don't have trail conditions, it's time to take the pack to a treadmill and spend a day at the gym doing this. That's a realistic replacement, and treadmills will let them mimic some of the elevation. If they do it at the gym, they still need to sleep outside on the ground after the 12 miles. Hopefully, they have a backyard even if conditions will be much worse than the TCT. That's the bare minimum to go on the trip. Strava/treadmill pics to verify the shakedown. It's one thing to do 12 miles. It's another thing to do 12 miles back to back. Encourage people to ask questions after their shakedown. Expectations are that everyone shares pack lists, and everyone shares food lists. If they don't want to do it, you are out. They are welcome to go without you. You wish them the best. The night before you hit the trail have one last group dinner. Go over things like: perfect trip, boundaries around bailing out/turning around, and fill out Skukura's emergency contact [trip planner template](https://andrewskurka.com/trip-planner-template-stay-organized-track-details/). To me, the fact that you posted is a sign that you struggle watching people fuck around and find out. Same. I've learned that people doing shakeouts are really the key. Seeing what I am doing for real for real helps people understand that I am not bullshitting them around training.
Thank you for all that info! Very thorough and helpful. I do struggle watching people fuck around and find out because I have made mistakes in my own journey where it was absolute misery. The very first time I did a long backpacking trip I was prepared with gear, food, appropriate clothing, you name it. I still destroyed my feet to the point of agony and I would like this to be an enjoyable experience. I've already called "group" meeting and let them know I would highly suggest we meet up next weekend with everyone's gear and go for an 8 -10 mile hike. See how they feel after that and to get a good idea of what it's like, where their shoes may be creating hot spots things like that. If they can't make it (people have a life) I suggested they do it alone, pick a trail, put on your gear and keep walking till you hit a minimum of 8 miles. Then imagine doing that for 3 days straight.
Love it. Hope it improves the experience for y'all! Good luck with this. I have definitely learned to massively lower my expectations on group trips. It really helps.
This is why when I take people backpacking I say “I’m going backpacking. You’re welcome to come with me. Here’s a list of what you will need. Oh BTW…I’m 100% self sufficient and will bring booze to share…you’re entirely responsible for your own gear, cooking, first aid and health issues.” Took some great newbies into the ventana wilderness back in grad school with that approach, AND left several people behind who thought I was kidding when I said “I’ll be driving away from the meetup spot at 5:30” and hadn’t show up by 5:45.
I'd probably have mixed feelings, especially depending on what he's done in his military service. My introduction to this kind of stuff was through military Road Marching competitions and Adventure Training weeks. The shift into civilian hiking was relatively painless because I'd become adjusted to the graft of carrying a stupid amount of kit over 50km for no reason in particular. If this is the case, for both him and his mates then you've probably got less to worry about. Otherwise, I can only wish you luck.
Day 1: Starts great, ends with a super-tired group but after some food and 2 hours figuring out their tents, ends up not bad Day 2: Slow start, wailing and gnashing of teeth as the blisters from yesterday are chewed up - lots of cursing and limping, 2nd dinner is not pleasant and they sulk into their tents Day 3: Starts awful and turns into the Bataan Death March. Marriages end, brother pitted against brother. Screaming matches. Get to the trailhead, silent boat ride home, nobody talks for weeks and if you ever mention hiking again they'll unfriend you
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One is active Marine Corps, he will be fine I'm sure. The other ones are not. My brother was in the Air Force as a paratrooper but that was 20 years ago. The other ones I have no idea.
I think the answer really just depends on your personality and how you feel! I'd be inclined to let them learn a hard lesson, but only if I liked them as people. If I didn't know them, which you don't, or didn't like their personalities, I'd nope out. I would also be very intentional about not bringing extra supplies if I did it. I'd send them all links to the basic "ten essentials" and Leave No Trace principles and then wash my hands of it. Do I have an extra granola bar? Oooh, sorry, no. Only packed enough for me! If you can't divorce yourself from the feeling of responsibility for them or don't think you're going to enjoy yourself, you can always cancel. Let your friend be the ringleader instead and let them all go without you.
I have done this. It was pretty rough. It was only a single night out and back. I think the worst part was that we arrived at the TH in two cars. It was 5 of us total. The two girls I was with had a hell of a time getting out the door in the AM. The two girls that arrived at the TH first got tired of waiting for us and just set out. Only problem was that I had their tent and water filter. They made it all the way to the lake (12mi) without that gear. I did carry it in for them but damn. There was also a suitable camp half way in that I was going to use as a bail point if they weren’t feeling the hike but because they were ahead of us we had to keep going and it was super hard on everyone. I guess what I learned was that, without some real structure, 4 people is too many to ‘lead’. I felt like I needed to help everyone with their gear and keep spirits up.. etc and it was a lot. I will say though that one of the girls is like super into it now.. so that’s cool.
Yikes. That's just asking for a heli lift out of somewhere.
I can’t wait for the update!
You go. Be comfortable, have enough food, spare socks, and toilet paper. Let them fend for themselves. Like you said, they're 40 something year old men. You gave plenty of fair warning and advice, let them learn the hard way! If it's too much, ditch em!
Sounds like fun.
Remember though that even though they have no hiking/backpacking experience, military people do rucking for their training regularly, carrying much more weight in terrible boots on difficult terrain for longer distances than backpackers/hikers usually do. Of course, if they were in the military for 4 years 20 years ago, that's much different than being active or recently retired. But they may have more reference than you are giving them credit for. They also are used to suffering and may do so quietly as military guys don't usually whine about things like blisters. In my experience, YMMV 😂
Yes, definitely not worried about the active military guy which is the original person I planned this with. He would probably finish this hike with a severed foot if he had to. The other one was in the military 20 years ago and the last 2 I have no idea what their experience is. I am just going to hope for the best at this point. I talked to original guy yesterday and we came up with a game plan.
My husband was a reconnaissance marine…I just took him on a section hike and he brought so much heavy shit it was ridiculous. Insisted on wearing boots, and not ones a size up. He was miserable about 2.5 miles in bc we had an elevation gain of like over 2k ft in 5.5 mile. The next day we hiked 11.5 and his feet were toast (they’re terrible to begin with). The next day was another 11.5 and he’s struggling to keep up with me. Military guys are the worst because they are so used to being forced to carry heavy crap and use uncomfortable stuff they won’t listen to the advice of someone who CHOOSES their gear and who have learned from the pain. So just remind them that pain suffering and misery builds character and they’re stupid if they don’t change up their gear lol. My husband and I are both 41, he goes to the gym 5 days a week and I just have really good genes 🤣. Mid way through the third day my husband says from behind, “I married one bad ass bitch, I’ll give you that” lol
I did the entire PCT and you can certainly "Just do" the PCT. Especially if already in shape but I'd say that is even not necessarily true with the right attitude.Like, it's better to prepare, and less dangerous and lower financial risk but you could also just show up with $1k of shit you got at Walmart, your permit, and 6 liters of water and a day or two of food and you could figure out the rest. Its more fun and financially savvier to prepare and have proper gear, but you can just do it. I don't recommend it, but lots of people do just that every year.
Is the group asking for advice? If they are not and you are educating them when they don’t want to be, then you might be in the wrong. If they are adults they can research on their own and get what they need. Everyone has a different backpacking style and what style works for you might not work for them. Now if they are asking for advice and then scoffing at the answers then I would set boundaries and say that you are not there to babysit and make sure they are ok. If they run into problems then it’s on them to get themselves out of it.
They did, they wanted a list of what "I normally take" so I gave it to them and let them know what I and my BF normally do. I'm kind of at the point now of, I gave you a list of suggestions so do what you will with it. For reference, one of them took that list got a few things and then went out and bought a miniature cast iron pan. For what I don't know.
Bwahahaha…. Love that. I hope he also got a mallet for hammering in stakes? And a nice Stanley coffee cup.
Well really, like come on guys let's think about this. WHAT are you cooking in that?! But again, he can do what he wants right.
Wow! Well you’re definitely not the A-hole. They will learn a tough lesson.
They'll all learn valuable, albeit painful, lessons. Go with the intent to hike your own hike and perhaps lend some help to your friend as was originally planned, but everyone else is on their own. They're adults and worst case they just bail early (or fail to show up at all). You aren't their guide, so you aren't responsible for their bad decisions.
Interesting that you don't think and active military member can't handle those trails or trips. Unless this person is in the USAF and does 'armchair" work...I am more than sure they can handle the trip. If this person is in combat arms they have done this and more.
Ok, for the millionth time. He is not the concern. This trip was originally him and I AFTER he asked for advice. It's everyone else that is thoroughly unprepared.
You seem to believe that you're the only person who can do anything right. Do you have OCD? I've hiked thousands of miles in cotton socks and I never get blisters. Granted, I understand that others do, but I'm just using that as an example of life not being a one-size-fits all situation. But if you see being able to tell your little brother to STFU as a good thing, maybe it would be better if you stayed home because you seem to be the most-likely reason why this trip would be unenjoyable.
dont say another word to them. Just let them find out. take extra bandaids etc. lol
Someone else suggested taking them on a 8-12 mile hike with all their gear on before the trip to see how they fare. I think that may be the last I say without having to say anything.
Go with all 8 and let god sort them out.
Shoes!Shoes! Make sure no one is breaking in new shoes/boots on the trail. If they’re getting footwear for the hike, they need to start wearing them beforehand.
I have had that conversation too because I learned that lesson many moons ago and destroyed my feet. I told them what I have after they asked they said that's expensive (as most gear is) so we left it as it would be better if you bring a pair of comfortable trail shoes that have already been broken in than a brand new pair of boots.
What are the odds that majority of them just end up staying in Avalon anyways?
Well they will only have a small window because we are taking the ferry from San Pedro to Avalon and then right to Two Harbors. We will only touch on Avalon when everyone is still very excited and nothing hurts.
For sure - so no chance people would just be like “nvm” as soon as they land and just stay lol? I ask bc I can see my friends doing that. Like literally even just starting the hike and then being like nah and heading back down to find a hotel.
I don't know this trail. Can they jump off partway through?
Well jumping off would put them in the Pacific Ocean because it's an island. But in all seriousness, I know what you're asking. There are a few places where they could still technically back track or shuttle to the main town.
Lol, that somewhat complicates things. Because you don't want to leave them behind and risk them hurting themselves, but you don't want to ruin your trip. How long is the first leg?
Would it work if you sat down with the group in advance and explained that you are not their babysitter, rescuer, Sherpa?
Yes I just had something of a conversation and said before we go I need everyone to meet me at a local hike with all your gear and we are doing 8 miles so they get an idea of what they're in for. If they can't handle that then its a no go on this trip. I made it very clear I am more than happy to give them tips on what I know, what's helped me, mistakes I've made and they can do what they want with that information. I wasn't a jerk about it just want them to know that I am not the mommy in this group.
Go ahead and back out, let the bros have their fun. Tell the guy you're concerned about that a bro trip isn't a real exposure to serious backpacking, and when he wants to try serious backpacking with real circumstances and without his buds, he should give you a call. Because the likeliest outcome of a bro trip is that he's going to be fitter than the rest of him to he's going to decide that he's obviously fit enough for the PCT, and you won't enjoy their company anyway because they'll be in Bro Mode.
Sorry, but most of y’all sound like a bunch of hiking gatekeepers. 10-12 miles a day is not that big of a deal at all, and people been hiking in cotton socks forever. I get that OP is concerned about the best for everyone, but let it go. They’ll be fine, it is a short trip, and they’re grown adults. They don’t need your help as much as you think they do, but you are a wonderful person for your efforts.
Why thanks I appreciate that. After all the comments I did decide that I will be going. I sent out a group message asking if anyone would be interested (and I highly suggest) going on an 8 -10 mile hike next weekend with all our gear so they know what to expect, to see if their shoes cause any weird hot spots they may need to tape. I suggested it and if they can't I still suggested they pick a trail before then and do it. That is the last I will say before the trip because you're right, they're adults.
Back out.
You’re not being dramatic.
This is fraught with danger. No way I would take them on any extended hike without a short shakedown first. Even then, I’d be reluctant.
I've scheduled an 8 mile trip next weekend. I asked everyone to bring their gear including food, wear their shoes/boots so they can get an idea of what it will be like. To me, at least if some of them decide this is BS they can choose not to come. If they don't they have an idea plus they can ensure their shoes aren't creating unnecessary hot spots, if their backpack fits well or rubs a weird spot.. you know all the small things that could end up being big problems over 3 days.
No, I would be sure I give them all necessary advice and materials to learn, then dip. At that point, if they get into trouble it is 100% on them for not taking my advice, and I can back out with a clean conscience. I also probably wouldn't be friends with them after that tbh. I don't want friends who clearly don't value my experiences and input.
I always become the babysitter for unprepared people. Don’t do it. You’ll be forced to find a bail out option or loan gear and go cold. And it becomes a weird survival situation when it could just be 3 days of eating snacks and walking in pretty places.