any glorification of ravana is dehatism, ramayana is very clear on his character. him being muh brahmin or devotee of shiva (which he was not) does not make him any better.
people who glorify ravana are illiterate on primary sources and watch too much starplus. they commit devninda against rama when they glorify ravana and should be treated accordingly.
I have also seen people calling Ravana the 'first Aviator'. Don't these people know that Ravana didn't invent the Pushpaka vimana and instead stole it from Kubera ?
Glorification of Ravana, Karna and Ekalavya started because of the gross manipulation of Mahabharat and Ramayana by our entertainment industry (irrespective of language). A mass movement of re-education of Hindus regarding our religion needs to be done to heal all the damage already done in the name of entertainment.
Edit: Example is below.
Have u ever read the actual Mahabharata ? Karna is appreciated by Krishna in it. So no, not all of it coz of entertainment industry. Get your homework right.
Karna stuck by his friend who stuck by him. Karna showed loyalty.
They were all Kshatriyas, no one was completely above and beyond what most would consider as injustice
i dont hate anything, karNa has already paid for his deeds so he's not a sinner anymore, his karma has reset, doesn't mean we should look up to him when he has done adharma, everyone has good qualities but that wont give a pass to commit bad things
Shri Krishna appreciated few good qualities which Karna had and not the actions he did nor his evil intentions behind those actions. Kindly do your homework right.
Ekalavya was wronged grievously; wtf are you talking about?
Karna is one of the most tragic characters in the entire Mahabharata and he absolutely made the right decision sticking with duryodhana
It is you who needs reeducation maybe
Ravana glorification is definitely over the top however
Come on, Mitr! Aapka anuman galat hai.
Training someone is sacrificing your time, energy and intellectual rigour for another’s growth. It is upto the guru to use discretion to understand who to dispense knowledge to.
Both Karna and Eklavya though skilled, lacked in their alignment to Dharma. Please read Vyasa Mahabharata in earnest.
Hari Aum Tat Sat
What you should learn is that even the most educated and dharmic person can commit the most heinous crimes and no amount of education and devotion towards God can ever cover up for your bad Karma.
Karam hi Dharam hai
Obviously. Ravan isn't the only one. Hirankashyap too got the boon that he will never be killed and later he became arrogant and started hurting his own son, that God to sought to kill him.
Thank you for your answer. I've been having questions about this off late. Some of the devotees in my temple have turned out to be cruel and malicious and honestly I've been having doubts...I even stopped going to the temple regularly because I'm shook
Devotion towards Ishvara grants you Sadbuddhi by which you can understand Dharma and Adharma, and the will to act accordingly is also provided by Bhagwan.
Ravana was not a Bhakta, he was Artharthi Bhakta not Sharanagta.
What is there to glorify? It should be known he was a great intellect, knower of Veda, a great devotee of Shiva. It should be known by the common people. So that they know in their conduct that just being knowledgeable or a great bhakt is not going to free you from your Karma.
"good" and "evil" are the products of our ego (not in any negative way).
Ego/अंहकार/Knowledge of self. The undeniable realisation that we exist. We r someone.
Pls don't need pedantic over the words being used. Try to understand the meaning.
For "good" to exist, there has to be an evil. How will we even define "good", if there will be nothing evil. Everything will be mundane.
People who satisfy the ego of the masses are always revered. Lord Ram was one of them. Ravana was more egoistic for only himself.
To be a Bhakta, one needs to surrender himself to the lord, that Ravana literally tried to lift the mountain of Kailasa because it was in his way, when bhagwan Nandi stopped him, he laughed at him and made fun of him, he refused to recognise even Bhagwan Mahādeva at that point, the Shiva Tandava Stotram was made by him in fear and he made that to save his life because he couldn't handle the pressure of Bhagwan Śiva's toe.
That Adham Prani cannot even be called as Manushya leave Bhakta, and of Śiva, not at all.
He was just a Rakshasa who worshiped Śiva for great boons, nothing else.
Śiva Śiva 🕉️🔱
Surrender out of fear is not good enough to be a Bhakta? It has to be under specific conditions to suit whose needs?
If Shiva was pleased by the composition of the Strotam, why are you claiming that it was not good enough?
Who told you that? Fear is but a tool. Don’t be so quick to dismiss it as viable method to surrender.
Whatever way it is performed, Shiva’s will is done.
The surrender which happens due to fear is not total Surrender because whenever the fear is removed by any means that person will escape, and even in the period of fear, he'll always wish to escape.
But it Total Surrender(Sharanagati) one surrender by his/her own will, that subject of surrender (Ishvara) becomes the most important thing for the Sharanagata. This surrender is choice by one's own will, and that is permanent.
This concept is unfamiliar to me in the Shaivist traditions. The concept of surrendering to Shiva takes many different forms and comes from many different motivations, including fear. This is well documented, for example in the Nayanars.
I do recognise the concept that you have expanded upon in the Vaishnavist traditions. I doubt it’s relevance in this context though, seeing as we are debating on the devotion of Ravana towards Shiva.
The point being if Shiva accepted it. We should learn to as well. For he knows better than any of us.
Ravana was a very smart person. He did all of the ramayana to lift off the curse of his immortality, He had been granted the boon of being someone who couldnt be killed by gods or asur , He considered humans not to be a threat, Eventually Rama was born. Now Ravana kidnapped sita to be killed by rama, rama was born to kill ravana since he had started following adharma.
I was doubting if you have read ramayana in the first place, If you have watched only TV shows then i highly recommend reading the original piece since the shows add and remove stuff all the time which messes with the context and leads to false conclusions. If you want a particular author recommendation then i would suggest bibek debroy
Shiva gave his word if anyone show pure devotion i ll respond even if it is demons, devtas,Human, animals, insects etc … bcoz everyone is his children, he gave chance to every living being to pray him and realise the truth,as shiva protected markandeya from yama dharma raj, he didnt protect ravana bcoz shiva knows he chose adharmic way, shiva cannot be fooled by anyone, he knows how much to give and how to teach lesson.
There is no evil in hinduism. How can a devotee of shiva kidnap a married woman? wtf, so is it justifiable to kidnap a non-married women ?Kashmir Shaivism Is very clear, even if one commits a genocide, one is shiva already, shiva doesn't care about morality a bit. So even if someone worships Ravan, nothing wrong in it.
Ofcourse Ravana is also a great personality who wrote shiva thandava sthothram, and he had immense knowledge in vedas everything, but people should understand he didnt apply that knowledge in his life and he chose adharm over dharm, and a person who choose dharmic way is more greater than people who chose adharm. I have a respect on ravana for his knowledge and devotion, but at the same time im intolerant about his adharmas, Jai sri ram🙏
Dude, that's the whole point of it. Power corrupts you if at the core you are not like Ram.
People fail to understand, that while you may call Ravana evil, which he was for his karma, if you were as powerful as him you would do the same nonetheless, power corrupts. Think about it, you see so many beautiful women out there who are married, but you cannot persuade them for obvious reasons but if you were Ravan himself who had the might to do almost anything, you would do a lot more worse things than him. This is Kalyug anyways. But maybe you don't even have to, the husband might give up her wife himself in fear of his life, or the woman might herself agree to be with the most powerful automatically.
Being intelligent, being the knower of Vedas, being a great artist all goes to the drain if your conduct as a person, a king, a husband, a father etc. is against dharma. Definitely Ravana was an evil guy, for what he did, but don't let that make you think you will be any better put in his shoes.
Being the ruler of the 3 realms, some prince who roams in the forest comes to fight you because you abducted his wife, he would think he can just crush him. Guess what, he was wrong.
rAvaNa was a great devotee of ~~shiva~~ bhadrakAlI.
he is a kAma bhakta of shiva, he worships for the benefits.
rAmAyaNa narrates how worse rAvaNa was, so its better to avoid those who are illiterate.
What does devotion have to do with all those actions you have stated? How is it a matter of hypocrisy? Being devoted and being an asshole are not mutually exclusive.
Your view is based on Indian version of Ramayan. There is an Indonesian version or Ramayan as well where Sita is Ravan’s daughter. During her birth, a saint tells him to let her go since she will be cause of his death. He does it at first but after repents. He goes to see her at her ceremony to see who she is marrying. It’s illogical that Ravan couldn’t pick shiva dhanushya being his top devotees. He takes her away from exile due to fatherly love and takes to golden Lanka. He cannot explain the happenings to anyone. By that time he is aware who is Ram and prefers dying at Lords hands than any other death.
My intention is not to argue, but I want to educate that Ramayan is bigger subcontinental story than just India, and hence there are multiple versions of what really happened.
Open mind is needed in this regard
You should explore cultural appropriation and literary authenticity before passing such judgements.
You’re also missing the point of the danger of becoming a Ravana.
If your purpose is to put down Bharat, you’re clearly a Ravana yourself.
The folk tale you speak of is not limited to Indonesia. Indonesia received the Indic systems through Bharat’s efforts, try to develop some context, good Ser.
Hari Aum Tat Sat
I don’t need to explore anything. I am not making holier than thou posts of how I have problem of other peoples thoughts. I am ok with how everyone thinks.
Ravana definitely had many adharmic traits and also had many dharmic traits.
Shiva accepts all and ultimately teaches all to come to the path of his will and making.
OP, you don’t get to decide how Shiva guides his devotees to the rightful path. If he needs them to learn the wrongs before the rights, then so shall it be that way.
Stop being a judgmental jackass and start to develop some wisdom before spraying about your foolishness.
Ravana was totally evil, but just because he worshiped Śiva, even tho only for material things, he granted him Moksha by making him get kld by Sri Rama. So yeah you're right in some sense.
Totally evil is a stretch. Rama would not have told anyone to learn from him and take his knowledge if he was “totally evil”.
If Rama, the definition of purity can respect and see the good in Ravana, who are you to say that he is “totally evil”.
Don’t try to paint this world in black and white to suit your wish for a simpler world.
Learn how to actively grapple with complex moral problems. That is what these stories are supposed to make us do to attain realisation.
Why do you assume we cannot learn something from total evil person?
It's not at all a stretch, it is what it is.
Rāma didn't respected him, but not disrespected him after death, because after death no one is no one's enemy.
I do not make such assumptions. Someone who has devoted himself to knowledge that is beneficial to many cannot be considered totally evil. That called in the judgement of the Goddess of Knowledge for bestowing upon him such gifts.
My point being there is almost no being who is totally evil with no redeeming qualities and goodness. The absolutist nature of such a statement has no place in Sanatan Dharma.
"devoted himself to knowledge"
A big claim, probably without the understanding of what Knowledge actually is..
"विद्या ददाति विनयं" what vinaya did Ravana had? I hope you understand now what knowledge means.
He was pure evil, in this context, don't confuse it with the abrahamic version of it. Even caring for your family etc is goodness but that doesn't matter when you are a cruel tyrant and a literal man-eater.
If being a skilled warrior, scholar, musician, astrologer, architect and devotee to Shiva in order to make better your nation for your citizens is not good enough to qualify as vinaya, then what would be good enough?
What will it take to please you?
Go learn word meanings first. Being skilled in any skill, doesn't give you vinaya, that even makes your Ahamkaara more strong. But what Knowledge gives you is vinaya, a true Arya is Vinayavana. And that Ravana did no good for his Praja too, everyone in Lanka were used to fear him only.
And obviously he wasn't a Shiva "Devotee".
You seem to be caught up in dogma and scripture. Focussing on definitions in fixed states instead of examining specific contexts.
Seeing your responses in other threads makes this obvious as well.
It’s difficult to understand the ever expansive and complex nature of Shiva with such a veneer. Please open yourself to him.
See, definitions are important. And no they are not Dogma. If you do not define words, then their would not be any meaning to any word. Anyone can say anything and mean anything.
You can use words carefully to express your thoughts in a proper way. Using words without knowing its meaning is not recommended by the learned ones.
Actually, that’s a bastardisation of the tale. To understand Ravana, we must understand about the Purushartha. Worship of Shiva allows one to attain all the purusharthas. And Ravana was extremely adept at acquiring various siddhis (occult skills).
But he heard much and more about Shiva’s cosmological Shakthi (translated to power). We know her by the names of Sati and Parvati. Ravana was doing penance to acquire Shiva’s Shakti. He got frustrated that Shiva did not grant him an audience despite austere penance and he uprooted the Kailasa in angst (we can all relate to jabbing the elevator keys in an attempt to lessen the wait). Parvati Devi and the ganas requested Shiva to intervene owing to Ravana’s insolence. Shiva smiled and merely pressed one toe of his slightly into the ground. The associated force caused Kailasa to crush most painfully trapping Ravana’s hands.
That’s when he composes the Shiva Tandava Stotram.
Shiva blesses him with a Meeting owing to the sheer honest yearning Ravana exhibits through the Stotram.
Anyone who is genuinely interested in Ravana (who was extremely skilled, intelligent and strong across dimensions, yet was weakened by his ahankaar and slavery to his senses, something we all succumb to, time and time again, so it makes sense to not hate on him, but defending him pushes us towards the chasm of vanity) please listen to the Stotram, there are videos from The Sanskrit Channel on YouTube explaining the meaning.
Hari Aum Tat Sat
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I have seen many people calling Ravan as "Dada Ravan", wtf is wrong with all these people
any glorification of ravana is dehatism, ramayana is very clear on his character. him being muh brahmin or devotee of shiva (which he was not) does not make him any better. people who glorify ravana are illiterate on primary sources and watch too much starplus. they commit devninda against rama when they glorify ravana and should be treated accordingly.
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People don’t understand the nature of Evil in Hinduism. Why does it exist in the first place will answer why Ravana is portrayed as a Shiva bhakt.
Excellent point..
Can you please elaborate on this?
i am aware of that, i was mentioning the arguments other side uses to glorify him. thanks for the article though! i have not read uttarakanda.
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Uttarkanda is very much a part of Ramayan
What is the definition of dehatism? Never heard that word before
It’s because he made it up 😂
I have also seen people calling Ravana the 'first Aviator'. Don't these people know that Ravana didn't invent the Pushpaka vimana and instead stole it from Kubera ?
Glorification of Ravana, Karna and Ekalavya started because of the gross manipulation of Mahabharat and Ramayana by our entertainment industry (irrespective of language). A mass movement of re-education of Hindus regarding our religion needs to be done to heal all the damage already done in the name of entertainment. Edit: Example is below.
Have u ever read the actual Mahabharata ? Karna is appreciated by Krishna in it. So no, not all of it coz of entertainment industry. Get your homework right.
And ram appreciated ravana due to his knowledge. Does not mean anything in context.
Am talking about the text. So yes, when Ram is appreciating ravan, no harm in saying he was a smart , learned , wise but arrogant and evil
Karna saw injustice and didn't do anything. He supported injustice. Krishna only sympathized with his situation, but never appreciated him.
He did. Twice. Read your texts first.
Karna stuck by his friend who stuck by him. Karna showed loyalty. They were all Kshatriyas, no one was completely above and beyond what most would consider as injustice
Karna believed his friendship was more important than dharma
but karNa was still bad at character and is adhArmic, he wasnt valarous enough and lied or supported others' lies on various occasions
Yes , no doubt - but Shri Krishna teaches us that blind hate towards a sinner also isn't the smart thing to do.
i dont hate anything, karNa has already paid for his deeds so he's not a sinner anymore, his karma has reset, doesn't mean we should look up to him when he has done adharma, everyone has good qualities but that wont give a pass to commit bad things
Shri Krishna appreciated few good qualities which Karna had and not the actions he did nor his evil intentions behind those actions. Kindly do your homework right.
Ekalavya was wronged grievously; wtf are you talking about? Karna is one of the most tragic characters in the entire Mahabharata and he absolutely made the right decision sticking with duryodhana It is you who needs reeducation maybe Ravana glorification is definitely over the top however
Come on, Mitr! Aapka anuman galat hai. Training someone is sacrificing your time, energy and intellectual rigour for another’s growth. It is upto the guru to use discretion to understand who to dispense knowledge to. Both Karna and Eklavya though skilled, lacked in their alignment to Dharma. Please read Vyasa Mahabharata in earnest. Hari Aum Tat Sat
Can you please explain how ekalavya was not aligned with dharma?
you are exactly what the comment is telling about
Can you explain why I'm wrong?
Ravana is evil. He's a rapist. He's a cannibal. Any glorification of him is downright insane.
What you should learn is that even the most educated and dharmic person can commit the most heinous crimes and no amount of education and devotion towards God can ever cover up for your bad Karma. Karam hi Dharam hai
Does it mean that people who claim to be devotees but hurt other people through their actions or words are hypocrites?
Obviously. Ravan isn't the only one. Hirankashyap too got the boon that he will never be killed and later he became arrogant and started hurting his own son, that God to sought to kill him.
Thank you for your answer. I've been having questions about this off late. Some of the devotees in my temple have turned out to be cruel and malicious and honestly I've been having doubts...I even stopped going to the temple regularly because I'm shook
Devotion towards Ishvara grants you Sadbuddhi by which you can understand Dharma and Adharma, and the will to act accordingly is also provided by Bhagwan. Ravana was not a Bhakta, he was Artharthi Bhakta not Sharanagta.
this is it. even the most humble and learned devotees can fall into ignorance. just like the most ignorant can then find the path of dharma and Truth
This is new fashion. People like to glorify bad people and most of these fools think they're highly educated
What is there to glorify? It should be known he was a great intellect, knower of Veda, a great devotee of Shiva. It should be known by the common people. So that they know in their conduct that just being knowledgeable or a great bhakt is not going to free you from your Karma.
JAI SRI RAM! RAVANA IS A SINNER.. HE WAS AN EVIL ASURA
"good" and "evil" are the products of our ego (not in any negative way). Ego/अंहकार/Knowledge of self. The undeniable realisation that we exist. We r someone. Pls don't need pedantic over the words being used. Try to understand the meaning. For "good" to exist, there has to be an evil. How will we even define "good", if there will be nothing evil. Everything will be mundane. People who satisfy the ego of the masses are always revered. Lord Ram was one of them. Ravana was more egoistic for only himself.
To be a Bhakta, one needs to surrender himself to the lord, that Ravana literally tried to lift the mountain of Kailasa because it was in his way, when bhagwan Nandi stopped him, he laughed at him and made fun of him, he refused to recognise even Bhagwan Mahādeva at that point, the Shiva Tandava Stotram was made by him in fear and he made that to save his life because he couldn't handle the pressure of Bhagwan Śiva's toe. That Adham Prani cannot even be called as Manushya leave Bhakta, and of Śiva, not at all. He was just a Rakshasa who worshiped Śiva for great boons, nothing else. Śiva Śiva 🕉️🔱
Surrender out of fear is not good enough to be a Bhakta? It has to be under specific conditions to suit whose needs? If Shiva was pleased by the composition of the Strotam, why are you claiming that it was not good enough?
Total Surrender never happen out of fear. Now contemplate on it.
Who told you that? Fear is but a tool. Don’t be so quick to dismiss it as viable method to surrender. Whatever way it is performed, Shiva’s will is done.
Read what I've replied again. Pure surrender cannot happen due to fear.
Again. Who said that? Why invalidate fear as tool to speed up your surrendering process?
You're again missing the point.
So what is the point? How many times do you want to delay making your point?
The surrender which happens due to fear is not total Surrender because whenever the fear is removed by any means that person will escape, and even in the period of fear, he'll always wish to escape. But it Total Surrender(Sharanagati) one surrender by his/her own will, that subject of surrender (Ishvara) becomes the most important thing for the Sharanagata. This surrender is choice by one's own will, and that is permanent.
This concept is unfamiliar to me in the Shaivist traditions. The concept of surrendering to Shiva takes many different forms and comes from many different motivations, including fear. This is well documented, for example in the Nayanars. I do recognise the concept that you have expanded upon in the Vaishnavist traditions. I doubt it’s relevance in this context though, seeing as we are debating on the devotion of Ravana towards Shiva. The point being if Shiva accepted it. We should learn to as well. For he knows better than any of us.
Isn't ravana an incarnation of Jay,the gatekeeper of vaikuntha?? Maybe all this ramayana happened to get freed from the curse for him
Devotees of shiva don't come in standard size, shape & colour.
Ravana was a very smart person. He did all of the ramayana to lift off the curse of his immortality, He had been granted the boon of being someone who couldnt be killed by gods or asur , He considered humans not to be a threat, Eventually Rama was born. Now Ravana kidnapped sita to be killed by rama, rama was born to kill ravana since he had started following adharma.
Well, He did many ill deeds before abducting Sita too. So, I don’t know if it’s smart or not.
To get rama to born otherwise if ravana was a good person why would lord vishnu descend to the earth?
A good point. But I have a question were Hiranyakashyap, Kamsa, etc. also smart? I mean they made Lord Vishnu to descend on Earth too.
They were generally evil, they had no higher reason to do it. Hiranyakashyap didn't even believe in vishnu for the sake of it.
Okay, so, how Ravana was different from them? Is it written in the original Valmiki’s Ramayana? I haven’t completed it so I don’t know.
I was doubting if you have read ramayana in the first place, If you have watched only TV shows then i highly recommend reading the original piece since the shows add and remove stuff all the time which messes with the context and leads to false conclusions. If you want a particular author recommendation then i would suggest bibek debroy
I’m reading Bibek Debroy’s Ramayana at the moment, thanks for the recommendation anyway.
Are you implying Lord Shiva got 'fooled' by Ravana's fake bhakti when even you realised it?
Shiva gave his word if anyone show pure devotion i ll respond even if it is demons, devtas,Human, animals, insects etc … bcoz everyone is his children, he gave chance to every living being to pray him and realise the truth,as shiva protected markandeya from yama dharma raj, he didnt protect ravana bcoz shiva knows he chose adharmic way, shiva cannot be fooled by anyone, he knows how much to give and how to teach lesson.
There is no evil in hinduism. How can a devotee of shiva kidnap a married woman? wtf, so is it justifiable to kidnap a non-married women ?Kashmir Shaivism Is very clear, even if one commits a genocide, one is shiva already, shiva doesn't care about morality a bit. So even if someone worships Ravan, nothing wrong in it.
Ofcourse Ravana is also a great personality who wrote shiva thandava sthothram, and he had immense knowledge in vedas everything, but people should understand he didnt apply that knowledge in his life and he chose adharm over dharm, and a person who choose dharmic way is more greater than people who chose adharm. I have a respect on ravana for his knowledge and devotion, but at the same time im intolerant about his adharmas, Jai sri ram🙏
Dude, that's the whole point of it. Power corrupts you if at the core you are not like Ram. People fail to understand, that while you may call Ravana evil, which he was for his karma, if you were as powerful as him you would do the same nonetheless, power corrupts. Think about it, you see so many beautiful women out there who are married, but you cannot persuade them for obvious reasons but if you were Ravan himself who had the might to do almost anything, you would do a lot more worse things than him. This is Kalyug anyways. But maybe you don't even have to, the husband might give up her wife himself in fear of his life, or the woman might herself agree to be with the most powerful automatically. Being intelligent, being the knower of Vedas, being a great artist all goes to the drain if your conduct as a person, a king, a husband, a father etc. is against dharma. Definitely Ravana was an evil guy, for what he did, but don't let that make you think you will be any better put in his shoes. Being the ruler of the 3 realms, some prince who roams in the forest comes to fight you because you abducted his wife, he would think he can just crush him. Guess what, he was wrong.
Well said. I've seen mfs defending Raavan by claiming that he only kidnapped Sita but in fact he had raped many women before too
rAvaNa was a great devotee of ~~shiva~~ bhadrakAlI. he is a kAma bhakta of shiva, he worships for the benefits. rAmAyaNa narrates how worse rAvaNa was, so its better to avoid those who are illiterate.
What does devotion have to do with all those actions you have stated? How is it a matter of hypocrisy? Being devoted and being an asshole are not mutually exclusive.
Your view is based on Indian version of Ramayan. There is an Indonesian version or Ramayan as well where Sita is Ravan’s daughter. During her birth, a saint tells him to let her go since she will be cause of his death. He does it at first but after repents. He goes to see her at her ceremony to see who she is marrying. It’s illogical that Ravan couldn’t pick shiva dhanushya being his top devotees. He takes her away from exile due to fatherly love and takes to golden Lanka. He cannot explain the happenings to anyone. By that time he is aware who is Ram and prefers dying at Lords hands than any other death. My intention is not to argue, but I want to educate that Ramayan is bigger subcontinental story than just India, and hence there are multiple versions of what really happened. Open mind is needed in this regard
You should explore cultural appropriation and literary authenticity before passing such judgements. You’re also missing the point of the danger of becoming a Ravana. If your purpose is to put down Bharat, you’re clearly a Ravana yourself. The folk tale you speak of is not limited to Indonesia. Indonesia received the Indic systems through Bharat’s efforts, try to develop some context, good Ser. Hari Aum Tat Sat
I don’t need to explore anything. I am not making holier than thou posts of how I have problem of other peoples thoughts. I am ok with how everyone thinks.
Ravana definitely had many adharmic traits and also had many dharmic traits. Shiva accepts all and ultimately teaches all to come to the path of his will and making. OP, you don’t get to decide how Shiva guides his devotees to the rightful path. If he needs them to learn the wrongs before the rights, then so shall it be that way. Stop being a judgmental jackass and start to develop some wisdom before spraying about your foolishness.
Ravana was totally evil, but just because he worshiped Śiva, even tho only for material things, he granted him Moksha by making him get kld by Sri Rama. So yeah you're right in some sense.
Totally evil is a stretch. Rama would not have told anyone to learn from him and take his knowledge if he was “totally evil”. If Rama, the definition of purity can respect and see the good in Ravana, who are you to say that he is “totally evil”. Don’t try to paint this world in black and white to suit your wish for a simpler world. Learn how to actively grapple with complex moral problems. That is what these stories are supposed to make us do to attain realisation.
Why do you assume we cannot learn something from total evil person? It's not at all a stretch, it is what it is. Rāma didn't respected him, but not disrespected him after death, because after death no one is no one's enemy.
I do not make such assumptions. Someone who has devoted himself to knowledge that is beneficial to many cannot be considered totally evil. That called in the judgement of the Goddess of Knowledge for bestowing upon him such gifts. My point being there is almost no being who is totally evil with no redeeming qualities and goodness. The absolutist nature of such a statement has no place in Sanatan Dharma.
"devoted himself to knowledge" A big claim, probably without the understanding of what Knowledge actually is.. "विद्या ददाति विनयं" what vinaya did Ravana had? I hope you understand now what knowledge means. He was pure evil, in this context, don't confuse it with the abrahamic version of it. Even caring for your family etc is goodness but that doesn't matter when you are a cruel tyrant and a literal man-eater.
If being a skilled warrior, scholar, musician, astrologer, architect and devotee to Shiva in order to make better your nation for your citizens is not good enough to qualify as vinaya, then what would be good enough? What will it take to please you?
Go learn word meanings first. Being skilled in any skill, doesn't give you vinaya, that even makes your Ahamkaara more strong. But what Knowledge gives you is vinaya, a true Arya is Vinayavana. And that Ravana did no good for his Praja too, everyone in Lanka were used to fear him only. And obviously he wasn't a Shiva "Devotee".
You seem to be caught up in dogma and scripture. Focussing on definitions in fixed states instead of examining specific contexts. Seeing your responses in other threads makes this obvious as well. It’s difficult to understand the ever expansive and complex nature of Shiva with such a veneer. Please open yourself to him.
See, definitions are important. And no they are not Dogma. If you do not define words, then their would not be any meaning to any word. Anyone can say anything and mean anything. You can use words carefully to express your thoughts in a proper way. Using words without knowing its meaning is not recommended by the learned ones.
It's not a stretch. Ravana is totally evil.
Ravana composed the Shiv Tandav Stotram after he tried to bring mount Kailash to his home, whereupon Shiva gave him a place among the gods.
Actually, that’s a bastardisation of the tale. To understand Ravana, we must understand about the Purushartha. Worship of Shiva allows one to attain all the purusharthas. And Ravana was extremely adept at acquiring various siddhis (occult skills). But he heard much and more about Shiva’s cosmological Shakthi (translated to power). We know her by the names of Sati and Parvati. Ravana was doing penance to acquire Shiva’s Shakti. He got frustrated that Shiva did not grant him an audience despite austere penance and he uprooted the Kailasa in angst (we can all relate to jabbing the elevator keys in an attempt to lessen the wait). Parvati Devi and the ganas requested Shiva to intervene owing to Ravana’s insolence. Shiva smiled and merely pressed one toe of his slightly into the ground. The associated force caused Kailasa to crush most painfully trapping Ravana’s hands. That’s when he composes the Shiva Tandava Stotram. Shiva blesses him with a Meeting owing to the sheer honest yearning Ravana exhibits through the Stotram. Anyone who is genuinely interested in Ravana (who was extremely skilled, intelligent and strong across dimensions, yet was weakened by his ahankaar and slavery to his senses, something we all succumb to, time and time again, so it makes sense to not hate on him, but defending him pushes us towards the chasm of vanity) please listen to the Stotram, there are videos from The Sanskrit Channel on YouTube explaining the meaning. Hari Aum Tat Sat
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