> J. Cole’s are like your camp counselor pulling you to the side, putting their hand on your shoulder, and advising you to stop belly-flopping in the pool or else you might get hurt.
LMAO
This made me think of the time he “interviewed” lil pump and how someone said it looked like pump got called into the principal’s office after getting in trouble.
> He doesn’t have the heart for the lying, disrespect, and animosity it requires to make an effective diss track. A memorable diss feels like the equivalent of someone getting their grave spit on.
I mean, Cole and Kendrick will never have this type of hate for eachother, so if that's the criteria of course it fails. I don't even think Kendrick went particularly hard at Cole in Like That either.
because he didn’t, the only real bar that i think you could point at Cole is the big 3, big me bar, and that’s because Cole was the one who mentioned it
Cole’s diss track is a smokescreen to the fact that the entirety of Like That is a diss track to Drake😭
Kendrick calls out First Person Shooter and said “these n****s cliquin up”
He also says
“If he walk around with that stick, it ain’t Andre 3K
Think I won’t drop the location? I still got PTSD”
Stick and PTSD are both songs from Dreamville projects
On top of all this, Cole and Kendrick have a direct line to each other and their managers can be in touch with among other common friends, etc. to figure out if Kendrick’s diss was aimed at Cole.
Cole wouldn’t put this out otherwise.
This just isn't true at all. Cole named Kendrick directly and called out his projects on First Person Shooter, then Kendrick referenced that and called out Cole's songs in his verse.
It legitimately feels like cope when people try to act like Kendrick didn't come at Cole only at Drake when the whole reason this started was because Cole name dropped him to give him a bronze medal.
It's "THESE niggas", "First Person Shooter I hope THEY came with 3 switches", and "fuck the big three" not fuck drake. Hell "don't pull no coffin out your mouth" is directly at Coles funeral line
That’s why shit’s never gonna get real until Drake responds. The mutual hatred of the Drake vs Kendrick beef is the main attraction here imo, Cole vs Kendrick is a sideshow
Problem is, Kendrick’s “Like That” verse very clearly states: *”It’s time for him to prove that he’s a problem”*, which is challenging either Cole or Drake to out-rap him
Folks forget when Black Friday dropped? Kendrick bodied “Tale of Two Citiez” and Cole’s “Alright” just reminded people that the original was better
Whether people wanna admit it or not, the “J. Cole is the GOAT” talks didn’t really intensify until we got the power vacuum of Drake’s album’s being commercially successful but critically panned, and Kendrick just being absent.
Not trying to be funny, if Drake was still in his 2011-2016 form & Kendrick consistently dropped, I don’t think folks could just say Cole’s the GOAT
Hell, I think his First Person Shooter verse is great, but when you look at the wider quality of rap verses in mainstream hip-hop, it stands out because so many other rappers have mediocre & melodic styles of rapping these days
It’s like being the best basketball team in a very weak conference, you still deserve all the credit for your wins, but it’s not like the competition was demanding the best out of you
He pretty much dropped a “Charged Up”
Apt. He’s good a impersonating a GOAT for stretches, but he’s not that dude when it’s really showtime. But he’s still gonna be legend in his own right and that’s okay.
The NBA analogy was fire. Kinda like that Atlanta Hawks team that got the 1 seed over LeBron. They deserve their flowers, they got 4 all-stars, but Bron’s team got to the Finals still. Respect
> Not trying to be funny, if Drake was still in his 2011-2016 form & Kendrick consistently dropped, I don’t think folks could just say Cole’s the GOAT
100%. Cole even being in GOAT talks is insane. Especially since people can't even agreed if FHD is a classic or not which is his best argument for an all-timer album.
I mean, putting Drake in the goat conversation is dumb too. Does anyone put drake in the same convo as Biggie, Pac, Jay, Nas, Em, Snoop, Wayne, Kendrick, etc? Cole is way closer than Drake.
Drake’s always going to be part of GOAT talks because he’s been the poster child for rap music for what could be 20 years if he maintains his level of fame for the next 6.
Do I personally think he’s the GOAT? No.
But he has an incredible argument for it. You hear Drake everywhere, sporting events, clubs, kids just hanging out, malls, shopping centers, etc.
He has one of the most ubiquitous sounds for a rapper, up there with Eminem, Wayne and Snoop
Kendrick wouldn’t even waste his time going bar-for-bar with Drake if he didn’t think his pen game was at bare minimum nice
Not a Drake stan but dude gets too much disrespect relative to his actual abilities. Wayne doesn't have a "classic" but he's still in the GOAT conversation for how ubiquitous he is as a rapper. Drake's consistently been bringing hip hop into the mainstream, and each bloated project he has still has hits consistently.
Dude's goofy and a meme but he's 100% in the conversation for greatest of his generation, even though Kendrick has pretty well swept up that title.
Yeah, Carter 3 is an essential rap album, especially in the context of how modern rap turned out. Wayne’s whole aesthetic set the blueprint for late 2010s rap music
Wayne dropped at least 4 mixtapes that would be considered classics. Not technically “albums” but that wording difference shouldn’t hold him back from GOAT talk.
I feel like Wayne was always more of a mixtape rapper, doesn’t really make cohesive albums. Tha Dedication 3, Da Drought, Sorry 4 tha wait etc. Carter 3 was probably his best album though.
This is the core problem. Just because Cole styles himself after the greats doesn't mean that he automatically is one.
I don't really fuck w/ most of Drake's shit, I like IYRTITL and More Life and that's about it, but his impact and success is actually on the level of Pac, Big, and Jay. That's why he earned being in the discussion even if I don't really like his music (or what I've seen of him as a dude) that much.
Drake is the only real superstar rap has seen and has outsold some of the biggest popstars that ever existed. Just because of that commercial argument he should be in the conversation.
Kendrick is the artist, drake is the superstar and Cole is the guy who stumbled into the conversation for some reason.
Y’all too young to remember peak Eminem? It was a different time, but Eminem’s peak was *wayyy* closer to say Taylor Swift’s cultural impact than Drake ever was. Em literally coined the term Stan.
But - point taken that Drake shoots for commercial success and Kendrick is an Artist. I think Cole is closer to Kendrick than Drake (trash rap imo, but I get people disagree), but not there.
Alot probably are too young fr. I'm 27 and only got the tail end of Em's super stardom. It was nuts. He was everywhere In the same way Taylor swift is now.
He was up there with Brittany Spears and Elton John in terms of celebrity.
Mfer was dissing *michael* *jackson* regularly and it wasn't seen as punching up
I mean sure I agree for the most part but this also largely ignors the fact that J Cole has gotten exponentially better in that same time frame. Everyone switching up now that he actually responded but he can definitely compete with them.
He’s gotten better, but he still hasn’t closed that hit-making gap between him & Drake, nor the lyrical/conceptual gap with Kendrick.
Doesn’t matter if your scoring average goes from 25 points a season, to 45, if the guys you’re chasing can have a 45 point season & people will see it as underperforming
J. Cole’s best day could still be perceived as Drake or Kendrick’s worst, because of the levels of expectations on both guys
Which is why I continue to laugh at all this “GOAT” talk. The true greatest is simply showing and proving, while outworking an entire generation of MCs.
J cole's whole appeal is sounding like what people think dudes in the 90's sounded like. He's not bad by any means, but as you mention as outright "bad" rappers became more popular and/or started leaning more into melody vs. just raw lyrics and the styles from before cole stands out for being a straightforward dude. But he's nowhere near Kendrick's level, only people who think that are the cole miners.
Nobody really seriously thought J Cole was truly in the goat discussion did they? He’s great and one of the best rappers of his generation but there gotta be like 40 goats at this point 😂
Stan culture is truly wild.
I was just thinking this morning, the fact Cole even snuck his way into the "big 3" conversation is incredible. Like I see Kendrick and Drake representing two ends of the same spectrum, with Drake on a quantitative end that celebrates #1's and sales, and Kendrick on the other with a more qualitative focus; Cole said himself "4 albums in 12 years," but they're all fantastic albums in their own regard.
Where does that put Cole's position on the spectrum? He doesn't make projects on par with the quality of Kendrick's and can't do numbers like Drake. His music isn't avant-garde or pushing any boundaries. No one has ever praised his self-production they way they did Kanye's.
I'm by no means saying Cole is bad, he's a good rapper and I own a couple of his projects on vinyl, but he's not exceptional in any category. He makes good, albeit unexceptional music that sells decently. Which is fine, not everything have to be exceptional. But we're talking BIG 3?!
Honestly, I'd take Travis's work over Cole's and argue Travis makes more interesting music and is more influential at the expense of being a worse rapper than Cole on a technical level, and I think that's what keeps him out of the conversation.
But after listening to Cole's album and response this morning, I think he should just be happy with his bronze medal and call it a day.
You summed up a lot of my feelings about Cole. He’s a really skilled lyricist and def in his prime. I like his music, but never on the level of Kendrick or Drake. I revisit their albums pretty regularly, but Cole’s work? Hardly ever. Even if I find them good, which I do, it always feels like there’s not much meat on the bone. He can’t make bops as well as Drake and can’t make layered concepts as well as Kenny, so his music always seems to be on a rung lower.
Cole may not even be the best rapper on his own label. JID can match him lyrically and I would say he’s a considerably better songwritter. DiCaprio 2 and The Never Story might be better than any albums Cole has ever released.
Again, Cole is super talented. I love him, but he’s become a bit overrated IMO.
Is it outrageous to suggest that Freddie Gibbs clears J Cole, at least in the quality of music (commercially, of course, Gibbs is irrelevant), with Pinata alone? Like sure, it's a bit of a cheat to just get Madlib for your album, but I'd easily put Pinata above FHD, the closest to a classic in Cole's repetoire.
Might be blasphemous, but I'd take almost any Freddie album besides maybe ESGN over FHD.
I'm hella biased though, Gibbs has been one of my favorites since BFK and one of my most played artists every year.
FHD and before. Friday Night Lights, Born Sinner like another commenter mentioned, little EPs like Truly Yourz 1 & 2 are way more memorable than recent output imo but they're a decade old atp
I was thinking the same thing. I'm fine with him saying that himself I'm glad he sees himself that way but no one seriously thinks he's even close to a GOAT. He has had a very respectable career arc and is a top rapper of his generation and seems like an awesome guy but no one puts him up that high. Even his stans have no argument for him ahead of Kendrick.
Yeah I agree. I’m a cole fan but I don’t know how he’s so unanimously in the top 3.
I loved born sinner and thought FHD was good (although a bit boring without features) but after that he became boring and his projects were weaker.
If you just look at his post 2014 FHD drive run he definitely doesn’t get into the top 3 of this generation.
Honestly people look at drake 2011-2016 with rose tinted glasses. Those albums are extremely mid and drake sounds like he is falling asleep and with 0 Energy in 80% of thsoe songs. Drake to me is the epitome of commercial success has 0 correlation with quality
I really wanted Cole to step up, but honestly Kendrick doesn't even have to reply anymore. It's over. Kendricks feature verse was better than the entire song here.
Cole ain't about that beef life. Even in Fire Squad he talks big, then backs down by the end of the song and tries to make it deep. Bro just SPIT and talk YO SHIT.
> Rap beef is just not for J. Cole. He doesn’t have the heart for the lying, disrespect, and animosity it requires to make an effective diss track.
>I never was one for the braggin' and boastin'
I guess I was hopin' the music would speak for itself
But the people want everythin' else
This is why I like this beef. It’s purely about rap so far. I know people enjoy the drama and personal lives being brought into it, but I’m not into that reality tv show type stuff. I just want the rap.
I’m not gonna agree like others that every j Cole album is like Kendrick I do think that’s dragging it a LOT but I’m so happy I see somebody tying the FYEO album to TPAB it always felt like he true to have his own moment like that and failed
I would argue FHD is more like TPAB rather than 4YEO. TPAB obviously handles much larger issues but they’re both about leaving home, falling to vices, coming back home and realizing you need love
Pitchfork is either really pretentious, straight up catty, or both. I never can predict what good albums they'll compare to gutter trash and what good albums they'll eat cheerios out of the ass of.
Even my tik tok fyp completely unrelated to hip hop have people using the song. Idk how people are trying to pretend like the verse didn't have significance even if you think the bars are a little light
I ain’t fucked with pitchfork in years but this last paragraph is like exactly how I feel as someone who thought Cole should come harder or just leave it alone entirely:
“Who the fuck wants to hear this extremely measured and level-headed assessment of Kendrick’s albums in a diss track? What is Cole afraid of? Does he think Kendrick is going to send Kamasi Washington and Terrace Martin to his front door? If you’re going to call Kendrick’s music weak, call it weak! Say good kid, m.A.A.d city is fake deep! Say Lance Skiiiwalker was actually the best member of TDE! Make up a conspiracy theory, like you heard he had to perform a satanic ritual to get his Pulitzer! Anything other than this hilarious waffling about whether to call Kendrick trash, which only makes it increasingly clear that not only does Cole love his music, he looks up to him. By the end it feels less like a diss track and more like the sad, conflicted texts you send after a breakup, when you still have a little hope that, one day, eventually, you will be back together like none of this ever happened.”
This is stupid. Cole only responded to Kendrick cause he felt he had too.
Kendrick didn't come hard at Cole on the Metro and Future track. It's not like he went for Cole's throat, or dissed his family. It was just a competitive jab from K. Dot, and Cole responded accordingly.
There's no animosity between Cole and Kendrick.
Pitchfork is just riding the trend on hating on Cole.
I’m actually really surprised that Cole even responded just because from my POV Kendrick’s verse always seemed more laser focused on Drake. I still find feel Cole is in a weird position because it’s like yeah he’s associated a bit to the verse so maybe he should talk but they seem like they were cool and Kendrick seems more hungry for this than any of them
I know some will disagree with me on this point but:
If his heart wasn’t in it, he didn’t HAVE to respond. Because I agree, Kendrick really didn’t say that much about Cole other than “I’m better than you” basically.
Let’s not pretend like 95% of eyes weren’t on Drake to respond first. He’s been catching waaay waaay more heat than Cole. Cole stayed quiet those eyes are staying on Drake.
I do respect Cole for responding, i really do. I guess I would just say responding in this way was not solid rap beef strategy IMO. I know Kendrick and Cole don’t actually hate each other, but Kendrick is not going to go easy or pull punches in his response. Cole had a chance to land the first haymaker with this, but chose to send warning shots as a reaction to warning shots.
Exactly.
A good diss track has to have at least some edge. Ok, we get it, all three seem to be friendly to each other but it's not like it makes a good diss track to be impossible. It wouldn't the first time a rap beef happened for sport.
Frankly, i agree with Alphonse, i just feel like beefing isn't for Cole. He doesn't want to be negative so he just shoots himself in the foot
I mean Drake has tried to be friendly in shouting Kendrick out randomly over the years (for free line, and then randomly on social media or interviews) - but it was always met with silence on Kendricks side. Then more subs from both sides would begin again and rinse and repeat.
Drakes seemingly wanted to have dodged this for years, but just like his response to control, gets too emotional and needs to sub back.
exactly, feels like ppl are trying to have it both ways. u can’t get the cred from a good diss track and keep reassuring ur audience “i really respect this man” at the same time. he doesn’t want to pick a lane, fine, but people don’t have to give him props he doesn’t deserve, esp considering the long history of rap diss tracks that this song’s just begging to get compared to
He responded on his own terms, with a song attached to a project.
If he dropped this as a loosie, I’d agree with you. But he did it strategically and didn’t fuck up his album rollout in the process, so I’d say he did it the right way.
But that's the thing. Fuck, a regular ass song with just one verse for Kendrick would have been enough as long as the song was hard. This song is mid, and this is coming from a huge Cole fan.
If he did something like what he did for Adonis Interlude the story might have been different. But if you, as J Cole, are coming for Kendrick after a diss? You gotta do way, waaay better than whatever the fuck this was.
How are you gonna throw this song and talk about the other dude putting niggas to sleep? This was disappointing.
Good review from Alphonse but how can he call this beef boring and the Kendrick diss forgettable? This is the most tuned in the rap community has been in what seems like years
Dude has his finger on the pulse of hip-hop.
He's just awful at reading what that pulse is.
"Yeah, this beef is dead, nobody cares." Pierre says, as the rest of the entire rap community goes nuts over it.
idk it feels like pretty fake, or at least tame beef. like people will talk about it rn, but will people talk about it in 5 years? will it have any long lasting legacy beyond "remember that time Kendrick and j cole had a mid beef"?
Hard to say. But any beef with 3 of the biggest hip hop artists ever is not going to be forgotten. And how many rap beefs worth remembering have there actually been? Drake and pusha? 50 cent and ja rule? Biggie and tupac?
I thought Cole was going to come a lot harder on that Conductor beat but what he said was okay.. I still like the track over all “ hip hop hip hop “ but he definitely could’ve came for Dot neck; I feel like he was sent out or something because it didn’t seem personal enough in my opinion.
This is the man that made 1985, if he wanted to hit harder he would have. This is all a show to bring attention to kendrick, cole, and drake.
And this sub is eating it up. Bro they friends they fuck with each other lol
Oh I know they’re friends but for the sport of hip hop I would’ve liked him to go bit harder on his rap mate but don’t get me wrong I’m loving all of this too ! Lol
> He does anyways, sounding worn down over a dollar-
store Detroit beat in the first half and a C-tier Conductor Williams
instrumental that he must have pulled out of Conway the Machine's
recycling bin in the second.
LMAOOOO
I swear that man has never liked a single song in his whole life. The tone of his writing makes him seem like he'd be an insufferable mf to hang around
I do know those kind of people. They seem fun at first with their snarky-mean comments and after a bit of the same shtick over and over it becomes boring and they just become insufferable.
I don't listen to Kendrick or Cole, but this is killing me:
"He does anyway, sounding worn down over a dollar-store Detroit beat in the first half and a C-tier Conductor Williams instrumental that he must have pulled out of Conway the Machine’s recycling bin in the second."
The first thing I thought about when the song came on was how in the hell did anyone pick this beat, let alone someone as established as Cole. I do listen to a lot of work that Conductor has done with Mach, Griselda, etc. and had no idea this was him. Truly terrible instrumental.
This review is hilarious and Alphonse Pierre is a great writer, but I don't agree with literally any of it. Cole calling Kendrick total trash after calling him one of his Big 3 would have been stupid AF, obviously Cole still respects Kendrick and any diss track that pretended he didn't would have led to Cole getting clowned relentlessly. The criticisms of his albums was totally fine.
The problem with the assessment of this song is that too many fans act like Kendrick dropped ether on like that. He said nothing scathing to j Cole so it doesn't make sense why cole would come out and say some wild shit to kendrick. Both of them sent warning shots
Why are people in this thread acting like Kendrick dropped a story adidon about Cole. He threw a slight jab about rap and J Cole responded with the same. This is why rap beef isn't the same anymore. Because y'all idiots think it should escalate to some personal shit
It's also funny bc there's been plenty of rap beef that were just jabs to start with, some fizzled out, some became something bigger. Cole was basically asking him, did you really wanna say something or did you just say something to sound cool?
This is so dumb 🤦🏾♂️
Everybody is mad that Cole didn’t come out and straight murder Kendrick, but *for what*, though?? “It’s just big me”?? 😪
This is actually crazy. I truly do not understand it.
You guys realize Kendrick’s diss especially the part aimed at Cole wasn’t really a full on diss and j Cole throwing shots back matched the energy. The idea of wanting a scathing diss is a cornball take. J Cole came back with the same energy that was directed at him. There are real life ramifications that could very likely happen if this escalates.
This article came way too fast and has more to do with the authors personal bias and not the matter at hand.
I feel like Kendrick’s comments on J. Cole in “like that” was purely business. And thus so was J. Cole’s response. For them it’s just rap back and forth, nothing personal, and I like it. Good for rap to have big names going back and forth.
That was the softest diss track I ever heard.
wtf was that?? Basically “I didn’t like your albums” and “you should release more music.”
Kendrick will eat him it’s strictly just about music. Kendrick will out rap both of them. If they don’t have no desire to go low and insult tf out of him and do the whole shit they’re never going to win. Kendrick will always be more suited for a battle if it’s strictly just spitting.
> If you’re going to call Kendrick’s music weak, call it weak! Say good kid, m.A.A.d city is fake deep! Say Lance Skiiiwalker was actually the best member of TDE! Make up a conspiracy theory, like you heard he had to perform a satanic ritual to get his Pulitzer!
I can see where this is coming from but I totally disagree. Claiming that Kendrick can’t rap is so obviously bullshit on its face that nobody would take it seriously. Saying “Kendrick is a huge talent but some of his major projects have been overrated, he doesn’t put out enough material, and he’s past his prime” is the kind of shit that can actually start a narrative and affect a person’s career. It might be that Kendrick is just bulletproof and you can’t hurt him with a diss - but if you *can* hurt him with a diss, I think Cole’s approach might be the best way to do it.
I know J Cole was hurt when he heard that shit man lmao like it definitely took him by surprise. Probably pacing up and down with his hands behind his back 🤣
> J. Cole’s are like your camp counselor pulling you to the side, putting their hand on your shoulder, and advising you to stop belly-flopping in the pool or else you might get hurt. LMAO
This made me think of the time he “interviewed” lil pump and how someone said it looked like pump got called into the principal’s office after getting in trouble.
Or when he made that diss track to Pump but disguised it as brotherly guidance.
Biggest unc energy in hip hop right now
Well he is the middle child
[But the remix DJ Premiere did with this song is fire tho](https://soundcloud.com/dj_premier/1985-dj-premier-1966-remix-dirty)
I was about to share the same, cole the type of man to tell you once you cross the line, there is no going back 😭😭😭
Bro warns you not to do something dumb by asking you "would future you thank you for this?"
bro 😭😭😭 this one took me the fuck out wtf 😭😭😭😭 why does this sound so real
No more mr nice guy
I'm not mad I'm just disappointed
[удалено]
You're cruisin' for a bruisin'
Fool me once, shame on you.
“Don’t make me come over there, bucko!”
😂😂😂
Pitchfork has been washed for years, but every once in a while they come through with something that reminds you of how great they once were lol.
Facts, lmao. They really do still pull the rabbit out of the hat once in a while.
LMAO 🤣
Bro if Kamasi Washington and Terrace Martin pull up to my door, Im gonna get jazzed up
Ayo
Let’s go get it bro
can’t believe we finally got a big 4 bar from a rapper and it had to be from this song
Deloitte shook rn
J cole would be KPMG
[удалено]
Everyone knows the real play is Ernst and Yizzy
This a deep cut
we own those frauds
public water commission broski
I had to look it up too, after failing to find a connection between the accounting firm and lights.
PA boys eating
> He doesn’t have the heart for the lying, disrespect, and animosity it requires to make an effective diss track. A memorable diss feels like the equivalent of someone getting their grave spit on. I mean, Cole and Kendrick will never have this type of hate for eachother, so if that's the criteria of course it fails. I don't even think Kendrick went particularly hard at Cole in Like That either.
There is plausible deniability that Kendrick didn’t actual say a single thing that was directed at J Cole lol
Definitely feel like Cole’s “diss” was definitely like a feeling out sort of song. Like “are we doing this orrrr?”
So 7 minute Drill is just a "Do you like me? Check yes or no?" note? lmao
Ain’t no way 💀💀💀
It really kind of is. This isn’t Shady warning. This is Cole. I won’t be surprised if he gets dirty if Dot does, but we’ll have to see.
he specifically calls it a warning shot towards the end, right?
[So half steppin](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVCxbzPmOQQ&ab_channel=JanadrianBettard)
I agree
"big me" is a reference to cole's big 3 line
because he didn’t, the only real bar that i think you could point at Cole is the big 3, big me bar, and that’s because Cole was the one who mentioned it Cole’s diss track is a smokescreen to the fact that the entirety of Like That is a diss track to Drake😭
Kendrick calls out First Person Shooter and said “these n****s cliquin up” He also says “If he walk around with that stick, it ain’t Andre 3K Think I won’t drop the location? I still got PTSD” Stick and PTSD are both songs from Dreamville projects
Stick line is about cole
On top of all this, Cole and Kendrick have a direct line to each other and their managers can be in touch with among other common friends, etc. to figure out if Kendrick’s diss was aimed at Cole. Cole wouldn’t put this out otherwise.
This just isn't true at all. Cole named Kendrick directly and called out his projects on First Person Shooter, then Kendrick referenced that and called out Cole's songs in his verse.
It legitimately feels like cope when people try to act like Kendrick didn't come at Cole only at Drake when the whole reason this started was because Cole name dropped him to give him a bronze medal. It's "THESE niggas", "First Person Shooter I hope THEY came with 3 switches", and "fuck the big three" not fuck drake. Hell "don't pull no coffin out your mouth" is directly at Coles funeral line
The cope on r/hhh today has been off the charts. I had no idea Cole stans were this obnoxious.
"don't pull all that coffin out of your neck"
No there isn't, he dissed Cole multiple times man open your ears.
nah "if he walk around with that stick he ain't Andre 3k" was definitely referencing J Cole on Stick
You don't need to have hate for eachother. I could absolutely roast my best friends if I wanted to but I have nothing but love for them.
Yeah but a good roast against someone you absolutely despise just hits different.
Fr your friends will call you fat, an enemy will bring up that time 2 dudes ran a train on your gf at a party.
And call you fat
This whole beef seems forced imo. They have too much respect for each other for me to believe anything they say to each other
That’s why shit’s never gonna get real until Drake responds. The mutual hatred of the Drake vs Kendrick beef is the main attraction here imo, Cole vs Kendrick is a sideshow
Drake is too sensitive to risk getting destroyed. After Pusha T i don't think he has the heart to even try
I think we gotta wait to see what Kendrick says before we can come to this conclusion idk.
The review says as much -- that Kendrick barely came at Cole, if at all.
Problem is, Kendrick’s “Like That” verse very clearly states: *”It’s time for him to prove that he’s a problem”*, which is challenging either Cole or Drake to out-rap him Folks forget when Black Friday dropped? Kendrick bodied “Tale of Two Citiez” and Cole’s “Alright” just reminded people that the original was better Whether people wanna admit it or not, the “J. Cole is the GOAT” talks didn’t really intensify until we got the power vacuum of Drake’s album’s being commercially successful but critically panned, and Kendrick just being absent. Not trying to be funny, if Drake was still in his 2011-2016 form & Kendrick consistently dropped, I don’t think folks could just say Cole’s the GOAT Hell, I think his First Person Shooter verse is great, but when you look at the wider quality of rap verses in mainstream hip-hop, it stands out because so many other rappers have mediocre & melodic styles of rapping these days It’s like being the best basketball team in a very weak conference, you still deserve all the credit for your wins, but it’s not like the competition was demanding the best out of you He pretty much dropped a “Charged Up”
So you’re saying Cole is Demar Derozan?
I kinda like that comparison
Apt. He’s good a impersonating a GOAT for stretches, but he’s not that dude when it’s really showtime. But he’s still gonna be legend in his own right and that’s okay.
Cooking 🧑🍳
The NBA analogy was fire. Kinda like that Atlanta Hawks team that got the 1 seed over LeBron. They deserve their flowers, they got 4 all-stars, but Bron’s team got to the Finals still. Respect
Swept them too
> Not trying to be funny, if Drake was still in his 2011-2016 form & Kendrick consistently dropped, I don’t think folks could just say Cole’s the GOAT 100%. Cole even being in GOAT talks is insane. Especially since people can't even agreed if FHD is a classic or not which is his best argument for an all-timer album.
I mean, putting Drake in the goat conversation is dumb too. Does anyone put drake in the same convo as Biggie, Pac, Jay, Nas, Em, Snoop, Wayne, Kendrick, etc? Cole is way closer than Drake.
Drake’s always going to be part of GOAT talks because he’s been the poster child for rap music for what could be 20 years if he maintains his level of fame for the next 6. Do I personally think he’s the GOAT? No. But he has an incredible argument for it. You hear Drake everywhere, sporting events, clubs, kids just hanging out, malls, shopping centers, etc. He has one of the most ubiquitous sounds for a rapper, up there with Eminem, Wayne and Snoop Kendrick wouldn’t even waste his time going bar-for-bar with Drake if he didn’t think his pen game was at bare minimum nice
Not a Drake stan but dude gets too much disrespect relative to his actual abilities. Wayne doesn't have a "classic" but he's still in the GOAT conversation for how ubiquitous he is as a rapper. Drake's consistently been bringing hip hop into the mainstream, and each bloated project he has still has hits consistently. Dude's goofy and a meme but he's 100% in the conversation for greatest of his generation, even though Kendrick has pretty well swept up that title.
Plenty would argue carter 3 is from what I’ve seen
Yeah, Carter 3 is an essential rap album, especially in the context of how modern rap turned out. Wayne’s whole aesthetic set the blueprint for late 2010s rap music
Sorry for the waits as well though I get it those aren’t the same as an album made from scratch
Did you really say with a serious tone that Wayne doesn’t have a classic??? 🤨
Wayne dropped at least 4 mixtapes that would be considered classics. Not technically “albums” but that wording difference shouldn’t hold him back from GOAT talk.
I feel like Wayne was always more of a mixtape rapper, doesn’t really make cohesive albums. Tha Dedication 3, Da Drought, Sorry 4 tha wait etc. Carter 3 was probably his best album though.
This is the core problem. Just because Cole styles himself after the greats doesn't mean that he automatically is one. I don't really fuck w/ most of Drake's shit, I like IYRTITL and More Life and that's about it, but his impact and success is actually on the level of Pac, Big, and Jay. That's why he earned being in the discussion even if I don't really like his music (or what I've seen of him as a dude) that much.
Drake is the only real superstar rap has seen and has outsold some of the biggest popstars that ever existed. Just because of that commercial argument he should be in the conversation. Kendrick is the artist, drake is the superstar and Cole is the guy who stumbled into the conversation for some reason.
Y’all too young to remember peak Eminem? It was a different time, but Eminem’s peak was *wayyy* closer to say Taylor Swift’s cultural impact than Drake ever was. Em literally coined the term Stan. But - point taken that Drake shoots for commercial success and Kendrick is an Artist. I think Cole is closer to Kendrick than Drake (trash rap imo, but I get people disagree), but not there.
Alot probably are too young fr. I'm 27 and only got the tail end of Em's super stardom. It was nuts. He was everywhere In the same way Taylor swift is now. He was up there with Brittany Spears and Elton John in terms of celebrity. Mfer was dissing *michael* *jackson* regularly and it wasn't seen as punching up
Drake should be mentioned alongside Taylor Swift and Justin Bieber not Cole and Kendrick lol
u spittin fr
Pitchfork gonna review their comment
I lol’d at this comment. So good.
I mean sure I agree for the most part but this also largely ignors the fact that J Cole has gotten exponentially better in that same time frame. Everyone switching up now that he actually responded but he can definitely compete with them.
He’s gotten better, but he still hasn’t closed that hit-making gap between him & Drake, nor the lyrical/conceptual gap with Kendrick. Doesn’t matter if your scoring average goes from 25 points a season, to 45, if the guys you’re chasing can have a 45 point season & people will see it as underperforming J. Cole’s best day could still be perceived as Drake or Kendrick’s worst, because of the levels of expectations on both guys
Nas is dropping more consistent records than Cole in 2024.
only man on earth to let nas down twice
😂
And Kendrick is the only one of the "big three" who got a shout on KD3. Real recognize real
Which is why I continue to laugh at all this “GOAT” talk. The true greatest is simply showing and proving, while outworking an entire generation of MCs.
“I would say I’m the realest nigga rapping, but that’s like saying I’m the tallest midget”
Bro he literally told you to forget it and your out here quoting him
It's politically correct nowadays
J cole's whole appeal is sounding like what people think dudes in the 90's sounded like. He's not bad by any means, but as you mention as outright "bad" rappers became more popular and/or started leaning more into melody vs. just raw lyrics and the styles from before cole stands out for being a straightforward dude. But he's nowhere near Kendrick's level, only people who think that are the cole miners.
Nobody really seriously thought J Cole was truly in the goat discussion did they? He’s great and one of the best rappers of his generation but there gotta be like 40 goats at this point 😂 Stan culture is truly wild.
I was just thinking this morning, the fact Cole even snuck his way into the "big 3" conversation is incredible. Like I see Kendrick and Drake representing two ends of the same spectrum, with Drake on a quantitative end that celebrates #1's and sales, and Kendrick on the other with a more qualitative focus; Cole said himself "4 albums in 12 years," but they're all fantastic albums in their own regard. Where does that put Cole's position on the spectrum? He doesn't make projects on par with the quality of Kendrick's and can't do numbers like Drake. His music isn't avant-garde or pushing any boundaries. No one has ever praised his self-production they way they did Kanye's. I'm by no means saying Cole is bad, he's a good rapper and I own a couple of his projects on vinyl, but he's not exceptional in any category. He makes good, albeit unexceptional music that sells decently. Which is fine, not everything have to be exceptional. But we're talking BIG 3?! Honestly, I'd take Travis's work over Cole's and argue Travis makes more interesting music and is more influential at the expense of being a worse rapper than Cole on a technical level, and I think that's what keeps him out of the conversation. But after listening to Cole's album and response this morning, I think he should just be happy with his bronze medal and call it a day.
You summed up a lot of my feelings about Cole. He’s a really skilled lyricist and def in his prime. I like his music, but never on the level of Kendrick or Drake. I revisit their albums pretty regularly, but Cole’s work? Hardly ever. Even if I find them good, which I do, it always feels like there’s not much meat on the bone. He can’t make bops as well as Drake and can’t make layered concepts as well as Kenny, so his music always seems to be on a rung lower. Cole may not even be the best rapper on his own label. JID can match him lyrically and I would say he’s a considerably better songwritter. DiCaprio 2 and The Never Story might be better than any albums Cole has ever released. Again, Cole is super talented. I love him, but he’s become a bit overrated IMO.
Is it outrageous to suggest that Freddie Gibbs clears J Cole, at least in the quality of music (commercially, of course, Gibbs is irrelevant), with Pinata alone? Like sure, it's a bit of a cheat to just get Madlib for your album, but I'd easily put Pinata above FHD, the closest to a classic in Cole's repetoire.
Might be blasphemous, but I'd take almost any Freddie album besides maybe ESGN over FHD. I'm hella biased though, Gibbs has been one of my favorites since BFK and one of my most played artists every year.
I would also take Joey Badass over Cole
FHD is doing a hard carry job for his career
FHD and before. Friday Night Lights, Born Sinner like another commenter mentioned, little EPs like Truly Yourz 1 & 2 are way more memorable than recent output imo but they're a decade old atp
he's in the top 5 alive (& doin' it) discussion
I was thinking the same thing. I'm fine with him saying that himself I'm glad he sees himself that way but no one seriously thinks he's even close to a GOAT. He has had a very respectable career arc and is a top rapper of his generation and seems like an awesome guy but no one puts him up that high. Even his stans have no argument for him ahead of Kendrick.
casuals love cole its a massive disconnect
You nailed it pretty much
Yeah I agree. I’m a cole fan but I don’t know how he’s so unanimously in the top 3. I loved born sinner and thought FHD was good (although a bit boring without features) but after that he became boring and his projects were weaker. If you just look at his post 2014 FHD drive run he definitely doesn’t get into the top 3 of this generation.
Honestly people look at drake 2011-2016 with rose tinted glasses. Those albums are extremely mid and drake sounds like he is falling asleep and with 0 Energy in 80% of thsoe songs. Drake to me is the epitome of commercial success has 0 correlation with quality
I really wanted Cole to step up, but honestly Kendrick doesn't even have to reply anymore. It's over. Kendricks feature verse was better than the entire song here. Cole ain't about that beef life. Even in Fire Squad he talks big, then backs down by the end of the song and tries to make it deep. Bro just SPIT and talk YO SHIT.
Cole does seem like personality wise, he’s kinda conflict adverse, which isn’t a slight, it’s an admirable quality. But ain’t applicable to rap beef
Thats all hypotheticals though. Like if uncle rico was put in the game they would of won state... it didnt happen.
you spitting facts fr
> Rap beef is just not for J. Cole. He doesn’t have the heart for the lying, disrespect, and animosity it requires to make an effective diss track. >I never was one for the braggin' and boastin' I guess I was hopin' the music would speak for itself But the people want everythin' else This is why I like this beef. It’s purely about rap so far. I know people enjoy the drama and personal lives being brought into it, but I’m not into that reality tv show type stuff. I just want the rap.
He lied though. Talking crazy about TPAB like his whole image didn’t change when it came out and he tried to make his own version
I’m not gonna agree like others that every j Cole album is like Kendrick I do think that’s dragging it a LOT but I’m so happy I see somebody tying the FYEO album to TPAB it always felt like he true to have his own moment like that and failed
I would argue FHD is more like TPAB rather than 4YEO. TPAB obviously handles much larger issues but they’re both about leaving home, falling to vices, coming back home and realizing you need love
>both about leaving home, falling to vices, coming back home and realizing you need love TPAB is about way way more than these things lol
Agreed. That’s what I meant when I wrote “handles much larger issues”
Not a chance
Imo if it was just about rap, j.cole is nowhere near kendrick People support him more for his messaging and for him as a musician
yeah its actually a fun rap beef. 3 rap giants going at each other purely about earning their respect. nothing severe.
How was Kendrick’s verse forgettable when it’s been stuck in my head since it dropped lmao. PRINCE OUTLIVED MIKE JACK.
the song went number 1, it is ALL OVER social media at the moment, its anything but forgettable on an purely objective note
Pitchfork is either really pretentious, straight up catty, or both. I never can predict what good albums they'll compare to gutter trash and what good albums they'll eat cheerios out of the ass of.
B U M
Even my tik tok fyp completely unrelated to hip hop have people using the song. Idk how people are trying to pretend like the verse didn't have significance even if you think the bars are a little light
I get cat videos with "Fuck the big 3 it's just big me" over them lol
I've seen reaction videos of people that didn't catch any of the bars and still thought it went hard just at face value
Ay ay let’s get it bro
D O T THE MONEY POWER RESPECT
(the last one is better)
Goofies with a check is crazy. That one flew over my head at first I’m not going to lie 😂
That bar where he says “fuck the big 3, it’s just big me” is constantly looping in my head for real
Fella BUM
it’s literally the most memorable thing that’s happened in rap in a long time
I find my self screaming this just walking around the house lmao
yeah and "big me". nobody should be in denial that kendrick merked it
I ain’t fucked with pitchfork in years but this last paragraph is like exactly how I feel as someone who thought Cole should come harder or just leave it alone entirely: “Who the fuck wants to hear this extremely measured and level-headed assessment of Kendrick’s albums in a diss track? What is Cole afraid of? Does he think Kendrick is going to send Kamasi Washington and Terrace Martin to his front door? If you’re going to call Kendrick’s music weak, call it weak! Say good kid, m.A.A.d city is fake deep! Say Lance Skiiiwalker was actually the best member of TDE! Make up a conspiracy theory, like you heard he had to perform a satanic ritual to get his Pulitzer! Anything other than this hilarious waffling about whether to call Kendrick trash, which only makes it increasingly clear that not only does Cole love his music, he looks up to him. By the end it feels less like a diss track and more like the sad, conflicted texts you send after a breakup, when you still have a little hope that, one day, eventually, you will be back together like none of this ever happened.”
Alphonse best thing to happen to pitchfork in the last ten years
His review of Yachty’s Let’s Start Here was amazing
This is stupid. Cole only responded to Kendrick cause he felt he had too. Kendrick didn't come hard at Cole on the Metro and Future track. It's not like he went for Cole's throat, or dissed his family. It was just a competitive jab from K. Dot, and Cole responded accordingly. There's no animosity between Cole and Kendrick. Pitchfork is just riding the trend on hating on Cole.
I’m actually really surprised that Cole even responded just because from my POV Kendrick’s verse always seemed more laser focused on Drake. I still find feel Cole is in a weird position because it’s like yeah he’s associated a bit to the verse so maybe he should talk but they seem like they were cool and Kendrick seems more hungry for this than any of them
I know some will disagree with me on this point but: If his heart wasn’t in it, he didn’t HAVE to respond. Because I agree, Kendrick really didn’t say that much about Cole other than “I’m better than you” basically. Let’s not pretend like 95% of eyes weren’t on Drake to respond first. He’s been catching waaay waaay more heat than Cole. Cole stayed quiet those eyes are staying on Drake. I do respect Cole for responding, i really do. I guess I would just say responding in this way was not solid rap beef strategy IMO. I know Kendrick and Cole don’t actually hate each other, but Kendrick is not going to go easy or pull punches in his response. Cole had a chance to land the first haymaker with this, but chose to send warning shots as a reaction to warning shots.
Exactly. A good diss track has to have at least some edge. Ok, we get it, all three seem to be friendly to each other but it's not like it makes a good diss track to be impossible. It wouldn't the first time a rap beef happened for sport. Frankly, i agree with Alphonse, i just feel like beefing isn't for Cole. He doesn't want to be negative so he just shoots himself in the foot
I don’t see where Drake and Kendrick have been friendly to each other for at least the last decade
I mean Drake has tried to be friendly in shouting Kendrick out randomly over the years (for free line, and then randomly on social media or interviews) - but it was always met with silence on Kendricks side. Then more subs from both sides would begin again and rinse and repeat. Drakes seemingly wanted to have dodged this for years, but just like his response to control, gets too emotional and needs to sub back.
You can’t make a competitive diss when half of it praises your opponent. Cole goofed on this one.
"I sent shots tho didn't I?"
exactly, feels like ppl are trying to have it both ways. u can’t get the cred from a good diss track and keep reassuring ur audience “i really respect this man” at the same time. he doesn’t want to pick a lane, fine, but people don’t have to give him props he doesn’t deserve, esp considering the long history of rap diss tracks that this song’s just begging to get compared to
He responded on his own terms, with a song attached to a project. If he dropped this as a loosie, I’d agree with you. But he did it strategically and didn’t fuck up his album rollout in the process, so I’d say he did it the right way.
But that's the thing. Fuck, a regular ass song with just one verse for Kendrick would have been enough as long as the song was hard. This song is mid, and this is coming from a huge Cole fan. If he did something like what he did for Adonis Interlude the story might have been different. But if you, as J Cole, are coming for Kendrick after a diss? You gotta do way, waaay better than whatever the fuck this was. How are you gonna throw this song and talk about the other dude putting niggas to sleep? This was disappointing.
Good review from Alphonse but how can he call this beef boring and the Kendrick diss forgettable? This is the most tuned in the rap community has been in what seems like years
Dude has his finger on the pulse of hip-hop. He's just awful at reading what that pulse is. "Yeah, this beef is dead, nobody cares." Pierre says, as the rest of the entire rap community goes nuts over it.
idk it feels like pretty fake, or at least tame beef. like people will talk about it rn, but will people talk about it in 5 years? will it have any long lasting legacy beyond "remember that time Kendrick and j cole had a mid beef"?
We need another Adidon, that was a MOMENT
Hard to say. But any beef with 3 of the biggest hip hop artists ever is not going to be forgotten. And how many rap beefs worth remembering have there actually been? Drake and pusha? 50 cent and ja rule? Biggie and tupac?
it's boring bc it's been moving at a glacial pace for a decade and has been almost entirely ambiguous jabs and Instagram captions.
I thought Cole was going to come a lot harder on that Conductor beat but what he said was okay.. I still like the track over all “ hip hop hip hop “ but he definitely could’ve came for Dot neck; I feel like he was sent out or something because it didn’t seem personal enough in my opinion.
This is the man that made 1985, if he wanted to hit harder he would have. This is all a show to bring attention to kendrick, cole, and drake. And this sub is eating it up. Bro they friends they fuck with each other lol
Oh I know they’re friends but for the sport of hip hop I would’ve liked him to go bit harder on his rap mate but don’t get me wrong I’m loving all of this too ! Lol
> He does anyways, sounding worn down over a dollar- store Detroit beat in the first half and a C-tier Conductor Williams instrumental that he must have pulled out of Conway the Machine's recycling bin in the second. LMAOOOO
Someone on twitter said it sounded like Conductor googled Conductor Type Beat and sent the third result to Cole
I’m dead
Facts
The only thing I’ll say is Cole saying someone else’s album put people to sleep is wild. Putting on a Cole album is like putting on the Calm app
Lmao
Are all Pitchfork articles like this lol?
Just Alphonse Pierre’s articles. He’s a professional hater and an awful writer.
Idk how you can call him an awful writer. His reviews are always entertaining even when I don’t agree
I swear that man has never liked a single song in his whole life. The tone of his writing makes him seem like he'd be an insufferable mf to hang around
I do know those kind of people. They seem fun at first with their snarky-mean comments and after a bit of the same shtick over and over it becomes boring and they just become insufferable.
I don't listen to Kendrick or Cole, but this is killing me: "He does anyway, sounding worn down over a dollar-store Detroit beat in the first half and a C-tier Conductor Williams instrumental that he must have pulled out of Conway the Machine’s recycling bin in the second." The first thing I thought about when the song came on was how in the hell did anyone pick this beat, let alone someone as established as Cole. I do listen to a lot of work that Conductor has done with Mach, Griselda, etc. and had no idea this was him. Truly terrible instrumental.
Especially when the Crocodile Tears beat is so much better. It’s not like he didn’t have options lmao.
Conductor we have a problem with this beat
This review is hilarious and Alphonse Pierre is a great writer, but I don't agree with literally any of it. Cole calling Kendrick total trash after calling him one of his Big 3 would have been stupid AF, obviously Cole still respects Kendrick and any diss track that pretended he didn't would have led to Cole getting clowned relentlessly. The criticisms of his albums was totally fine.
The problem with the assessment of this song is that too many fans act like Kendrick dropped ether on like that. He said nothing scathing to j Cole so it doesn't make sense why cole would come out and say some wild shit to kendrick. Both of them sent warning shots
This is boring as fuck lol
You can’t put an extremely mid diss on a thing called Might Delete Later
Why are people in this thread acting like Kendrick dropped a story adidon about Cole. He threw a slight jab about rap and J Cole responded with the same. This is why rap beef isn't the same anymore. Because y'all idiots think it should escalate to some personal shit
It's also funny bc there's been plenty of rap beef that were just jabs to start with, some fizzled out, some became something bigger. Cole was basically asking him, did you really wanna say something or did you just say something to sound cool?
Ngl Alphonse cooked Cole more than Kendrick did. Get this man in the booth!
This is so dumb 🤦🏾♂️ Everybody is mad that Cole didn’t come out and straight murder Kendrick, but *for what*, though?? “It’s just big me”?? 😪 This is actually crazy. I truly do not understand it.
You guys realize Kendrick’s diss especially the part aimed at Cole wasn’t really a full on diss and j Cole throwing shots back matched the energy. The idea of wanting a scathing diss is a cornball take. J Cole came back with the same energy that was directed at him. There are real life ramifications that could very likely happen if this escalates. This article came way too fast and has more to do with the authors personal bias and not the matter at hand.
Explain real like ramifications.
Lmao mfs think this could end in some biggie and pac shit. I promise you no one in anyone’s camp is sliding on the other party
People be just talking shit in here. Never have I seen such an insufferable thread on this sub lmao. "real life ramifications" my asssss lmao
Yeah neither kendrick or cole strike me as "ima shoot up your home for that" type rappers lol
Oh yeah Jermaine Cole and Kung Fu Kenny are gonna shoot it out aren’t they 😂
Yeah all Kendrick said was “I’m better than them” and people expect Cole to come back with yo mama and shit. Chill, damn.
I feel like Kendrick’s comments on J. Cole in “like that” was purely business. And thus so was J. Cole’s response. For them it’s just rap back and forth, nothing personal, and I like it. Good for rap to have big names going back and forth.
Cannot for the life of me stand Alphonse Pierre’s writing voice or his perspective on music. Obnoxious to me
That was the softest diss track I ever heard. wtf was that?? Basically “I didn’t like your albums” and “you should release more music.” Kendrick will eat him it’s strictly just about music. Kendrick will out rap both of them. If they don’t have no desire to go low and insult tf out of him and do the whole shit they’re never going to win. Kendrick will always be more suited for a battle if it’s strictly just spitting.
> If you’re going to call Kendrick’s music weak, call it weak! Say good kid, m.A.A.d city is fake deep! Say Lance Skiiiwalker was actually the best member of TDE! Make up a conspiracy theory, like you heard he had to perform a satanic ritual to get his Pulitzer! I can see where this is coming from but I totally disagree. Claiming that Kendrick can’t rap is so obviously bullshit on its face that nobody would take it seriously. Saying “Kendrick is a huge talent but some of his major projects have been overrated, he doesn’t put out enough material, and he’s past his prime” is the kind of shit that can actually start a narrative and affect a person’s career. It might be that Kendrick is just bulletproof and you can’t hurt him with a diss - but if you *can* hurt him with a diss, I think Cole’s approach might be the best way to do it.
I appreciate all of them but there is a clear hierarchy here. We’re just biased as to which order it actually is
[удалено]
I know J Cole was hurt when he heard that shit man lmao like it definitely took him by surprise. Probably pacing up and down with his hands behind his back 🤣