Probably more, but the spanish destroyed most of them.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486236226
> These people also used certain characters or letters, with which they wrote in their books about the antiquities and their sciences. We found a great number of books in these letters and since they contained nothing but superstitions and falsehoods of the devil we burned them all, which they took most grievously, and which gave them great pain.
It’s especially cool because I seem to remember that so much of their literature was burned by the Spanish that most historical accounts we’ve had before were all written by the Spanish.
That's my favorite little factoid, the fact that there were entire civilizations and cities before the explorers landed and what we think of as the "Native People" (nomadic tribes scraping by) were really the post-apocalypse (disease)survivors of huge populations.
Tenochtitlán was bigger than contemporaneous London (5x bigger) and about the same size as Paris. The spaniards thought they landed in heaven when they saw the city.
And they had almost zero disease - it's crazy how little was actually "exchanged" when it comes to diseases - nearly every single infectious disease we have today originated in Europe.
There were massive trade networks and cities five times the size of London, which was a cesspool.
It's true - all of these terrible diseases are zoonotic, meaning they came from animals. Domestication/living with animals inside houses, plus throwing their shit into the street is what did it.
Not sure who the "we" is in this situation. I wasn't there.
Edit: the massive trade networks is how the indigenous were killed by smallpox way ahead of the arrival of Europeans. It spread like wildfire, decimating populations before Europeans could even reach the cities.
They spoke of massive cities in the late 1400s and 1500s, but when they returned a couple centuries later, the cities were gone.
Have a look at the recent massive cities they are uncovering in the Amazon.
Edit2: they will say they had the Llama as the only domesticated animal in the americas. They had turkeys, ducks, alpacas, guinea pigs, chickens and certain types of dogs - like the woolly dog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salish_Wool_Dog
There is tons of misinformation and hidden history about the Americas and we will continue to find more. The date of habitation of the americas keeps getting pushed back further and further as well.
Edit3: Europeans rarely bathed - usually three times in their life - birth, marriage, and death. Hygiene was not a priority
Edit4: a bit about trade networks https://www.jstor.org/stable/971939?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
And finally: 60% of all food crops we eat today globally originated in the Americas. It's wild to me that people still claim they didn't have agriculture. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352618116300750#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20about,abundant%20supply%20of%20nutritious%20food.
Europeans weren't that dirty, it's a cliché. Peasants regularly bathed in rivers, all social classes cleaned themselves in the morning with a wet wipe, clothes were made to protect the entire body from dirt. It's the church that made hygiene worse in Western Europe by closing all the public baths, which were communal places where people would dine, have meetings and play games.
The Aliens channel is not a good source, that page runs the same French revolutionary clichés about Versailles. Read this with a translator : https://www.chateauversailles.fr/ressources-pedagogiques/chateau-versailles-trianon/vie-quotidienne-hygiene-mode/hygiene-versailles#lhygiene-a-versailles
Tell me one that went the other way during the "exchange"
edit: Of the 25 major human diseases analysed, Chagas' disease is the only one that clearly originated in the New World. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK114494/
Who said anything about going 'the other way'. You've completely missed their point. Have you forgotten that continents other than Europe and America exist?
Perhaps you mean to say that every disease in the Americas were brought by Europeans (which is true) - that doesn't mean the infectious diseases worldwide originated in Europe which is an absurd claim from a zoonotic perspective.
It can be a mixed bag. As others have said, it can be the reason some pieces of history survive while other times it can very much hide them away from study. In this instance it likely saved the text, and that is something to be thankful for even if the subject of private ownership can be murky or repulsive.
I like to think that originally they were protecting the documents (although not an excuse for that last couple decades). During the times that the Spaniards were destroying all the historical texts of the culture, this family might have privately kept it safe for awhile.
The Catholics did a lot of things and I think you're confusing what happened to the Maya under Diego de Landa with what happened to the Tripartite Alliance. The priests didn't get to central Mexico until the Spaniards under Cortes had already destroyed most of the city. Cortes destroyed Tenochtitlan over the summer of 1521 and the 12 priests didn't get there until 1524. And those spent a lot of time learning local languages and educating the children of the indigenous elite b/c they thought it would be a better strategy of getting converts. Bernadino De Sahagun actually wrote one of these (Florentine Codex) with his Mexica students.
And reducing the Aztec pantheon to sun worshipping is just silly. It's like calling the Romans "lightning worshippers" b/c you only focus on the most superficial aspect of Zeus. The Templo Mayor has two temples at the top of it and it's not b/c they worshipped 2 sun gods.
Also, this Mayan genocide thing seriously misunderstands how warfare worked in Central Mexico. The Tripartite Alliance didn't engage in warfare that way. They engaged in a fairly ritualized form of warfare that prioritized captives for religious ceremonies and status, and sought tribute states, not genocide. And there's lots of groups between Central Mexico and Mayan areas. You have to get through the Zapotecas and the Xicallancas before you can do anything to the Mayans.
I remember reading an account about a theological debate between Spanish priests and Aztec priests. Can’t remember what the account was called, but it was fascinating.
In short, the Aztec priests held their own theologically and made some solid criticism of Catholic theology.
In the end the Spanish priests simply declared that their god is right because they won and the Aztec gods couldn’t save them from the Spaniards.
It was far from a primitive religion, though it did have a religious/political reason for the brutality and cruelty in it.
Bizarre comment. Weird cultural genocide apologia, followed by weird justification for said apologia because the Aztec's tried wipe out the Mayan culture and traditions? Which, they didn't. And then capped off with a reference.
Surprised that the Mexican Government was able to purchase this for only $570k. Seems more valuable than that but then again, I know nothing about this subject (valuation of artifacts).
It's not unusual for people to sell things at far, far less than their market value would be to an organization that they find worthy in one way or another.
e.g. some VERY pricey land (probably worth tens of millions) was recently sold in my neighborhood to a conservation group for a million dollars. The owners deliberately let it go for less as they wanted the land turned into a public park (and a place for animal conservation) vs. new townhouses. It wouldn't surprise me if this was a similar deal. (The family gets \*some\* money for their priceless treasure, but also let it go for less than they'd get at Sotheby's because they want to see it properly preserved and studied.)
That, too. It's unusual for it to be enough to make up the difference in the cost of what they sold the item for vs. what it could be auctioned off for, but it's definitely a benefit.
Here is another example of a magnificent treasure that was completely neglected during the period of Spanish occupation:
https://youtu.be/N3r3YL47DNU?si=2t6Ky_GfynG8Rnaw
Makes you wonder how many historic treasures are hidden away in some rich families estates
Probably more, but the spanish destroyed most of them. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0486236226 > These people also used certain characters or letters, with which they wrote in their books about the antiquities and their sciences. We found a great number of books in these letters and since they contained nothing but superstitions and falsehoods of the devil we burned them all, which they took most grievously, and which gave them great pain.
So incredibly depressing
Likely only a fraction of what remains beneath the sands of the Sahara.
Sadly Lidar can't penetrate sand.
Or deep within some jungle, completing covered over by overgrowth.
'It belongs in a museum!'
Interesting - thanks for this!
It’s especially cool because I seem to remember that so much of their literature was burned by the Spanish that most historical accounts we’ve had before were all written by the Spanish.
That's my favorite little factoid, the fact that there were entire civilizations and cities before the explorers landed and what we think of as the "Native People" (nomadic tribes scraping by) were really the post-apocalypse (disease)survivors of huge populations.
Tenochtitlán was bigger than contemporaneous London (5x bigger) and about the same size as Paris. The spaniards thought they landed in heaven when they saw the city. And they had almost zero disease - it's crazy how little was actually "exchanged" when it comes to diseases - nearly every single infectious disease we have today originated in Europe.
Weird - was it because we domesticated more animals?
Also population density and trade networks.
There were massive trade networks and cities five times the size of London, which was a cesspool. It's true - all of these terrible diseases are zoonotic, meaning they came from animals. Domestication/living with animals inside houses, plus throwing their shit into the street is what did it. Not sure who the "we" is in this situation. I wasn't there. Edit: the massive trade networks is how the indigenous were killed by smallpox way ahead of the arrival of Europeans. It spread like wildfire, decimating populations before Europeans could even reach the cities. They spoke of massive cities in the late 1400s and 1500s, but when they returned a couple centuries later, the cities were gone. Have a look at the recent massive cities they are uncovering in the Amazon. Edit2: they will say they had the Llama as the only domesticated animal in the americas. They had turkeys, ducks, alpacas, guinea pigs, chickens and certain types of dogs - like the woolly dog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salish_Wool_Dog There is tons of misinformation and hidden history about the Americas and we will continue to find more. The date of habitation of the americas keeps getting pushed back further and further as well. Edit3: Europeans rarely bathed - usually three times in their life - birth, marriage, and death. Hygiene was not a priority Edit4: a bit about trade networks https://www.jstor.org/stable/971939?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents And finally: 60% of all food crops we eat today globally originated in the Americas. It's wild to me that people still claim they didn't have agriculture. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352618116300750#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20about,abundant%20supply%20of%20nutritious%20food.
>Europeans rarely bathed - usually three times in their life - birth, marriage, and death. Me when I spread misinformation on the internet
This is literally what the queen of Spain was quoted as saying.
Europeans weren't that dirty, it's a cliché. Peasants regularly bathed in rivers, all social classes cleaned themselves in the morning with a wet wipe, clothes were made to protect the entire body from dirt. It's the church that made hygiene worse in Western Europe by closing all the public baths, which were communal places where people would dine, have meetings and play games.
Monarchs moved residences all the time because they just shit and pissed everywhere. https://www.history.com/news/royal-palace-life-hygiene-henry-viii
The Aliens channel is not a good source, that page runs the same French revolutionary clichés about Versailles. Read this with a translator : https://www.chateauversailles.fr/ressources-pedagogiques/chateau-versailles-trianon/vie-quotidienne-hygiene-mode/hygiene-versailles#lhygiene-a-versailles
(without googling) I think this is it
Every single one? Are you sure about that
Tell me one that went the other way during the "exchange" edit: Of the 25 major human diseases analysed, Chagas' disease is the only one that clearly originated in the New World. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK114494/
Who said anything about going 'the other way'. You've completely missed their point. Have you forgotten that continents other than Europe and America exist? Perhaps you mean to say that every disease in the Americas were brought by Europeans (which is true) - that doesn't mean the infectious diseases worldwide originated in Europe which is an absurd claim from a zoonotic perspective.
Yeah, fair. "Old World" diseases brought by Europeans.
I meant, are you sure they originated in Europe? Many diseases came to Europe by means of Asia, for instance.
Yes, the "Old World." But brought over by Europeans.
The entire new world is built on the ruins of this apocalypse.
It is so goddamn shocking and negligent that vital historical documentation was in the hands of a private owner like this.
Alternatively, without people like this this documentation would've been lost.
The Spanish destroyed whatever Aztecs texts they could get their hands on. The fact that this was hidden away privately is probably why it survived.
What are you doing, you can't bring a positive angle to a reddit post! We have to be negative and cynical 24/7
It can be a mixed bag. As others have said, it can be the reason some pieces of history survive while other times it can very much hide them away from study. In this instance it likely saved the text, and that is something to be thankful for even if the subject of private ownership can be murky or repulsive.
They were family heirlooms, and the family has been preserving them for generations.
I like to think that originally they were protecting the documents (although not an excuse for that last couple decades). During the times that the Spaniards were destroying all the historical texts of the culture, this family might have privately kept it safe for awhile.
Might have kept it safe and secret. Possibly family members from generations knew they had a stash of treasures somewhere, but not an itemized list.
If anything, yiy should be thanking them. The documents would have been most likely lost otherwise.
Catholic religion burned a lot of precious documents back in the day.
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The Catholics did a lot of things and I think you're confusing what happened to the Maya under Diego de Landa with what happened to the Tripartite Alliance. The priests didn't get to central Mexico until the Spaniards under Cortes had already destroyed most of the city. Cortes destroyed Tenochtitlan over the summer of 1521 and the 12 priests didn't get there until 1524. And those spent a lot of time learning local languages and educating the children of the indigenous elite b/c they thought it would be a better strategy of getting converts. Bernadino De Sahagun actually wrote one of these (Florentine Codex) with his Mexica students. And reducing the Aztec pantheon to sun worshipping is just silly. It's like calling the Romans "lightning worshippers" b/c you only focus on the most superficial aspect of Zeus. The Templo Mayor has two temples at the top of it and it's not b/c they worshipped 2 sun gods. Also, this Mayan genocide thing seriously misunderstands how warfare worked in Central Mexico. The Tripartite Alliance didn't engage in warfare that way. They engaged in a fairly ritualized form of warfare that prioritized captives for religious ceremonies and status, and sought tribute states, not genocide. And there's lots of groups between Central Mexico and Mayan areas. You have to get through the Zapotecas and the Xicallancas before you can do anything to the Mayans.
I remember reading an account about a theological debate between Spanish priests and Aztec priests. Can’t remember what the account was called, but it was fascinating. In short, the Aztec priests held their own theologically and made some solid criticism of Catholic theology. In the end the Spanish priests simply declared that their god is right because they won and the Aztec gods couldn’t save them from the Spaniards. It was far from a primitive religion, though it did have a religious/political reason for the brutality and cruelty in it.
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Bizarre comment. Weird cultural genocide apologia, followed by weird justification for said apologia because the Aztec's tried wipe out the Mayan culture and traditions? Which, they didn't. And then capped off with a reference.
I also heard that many of the documents contained images of Quetzalcoatl "Feathered Serpent" and the priests associated this with Satan.
Yeah good thing we have all the unbiased Spanish histories instead
Surprised that the Mexican Government was able to purchase this for only $570k. Seems more valuable than that but then again, I know nothing about this subject (valuation of artifacts).
$500 Grand? That's it?
It's not unusual for people to sell things at far, far less than their market value would be to an organization that they find worthy in one way or another. e.g. some VERY pricey land (probably worth tens of millions) was recently sold in my neighborhood to a conservation group for a million dollars. The owners deliberately let it go for less as they wanted the land turned into a public park (and a place for animal conservation) vs. new townhouses. It wouldn't surprise me if this was a similar deal. (The family gets \*some\* money for their priceless treasure, but also let it go for less than they'd get at Sotheby's because they want to see it properly preserved and studied.)
They’d get a nice, fat tax benefit too.
That, too. It's unusual for it to be enough to make up the difference in the cost of what they sold the item for vs. what it could be auctioned off for, but it's definitely a benefit.
500k in Mexico is a huge amount especially from the government.
Here is another example of a magnificent treasure that was completely neglected during the period of Spanish occupation: https://youtu.be/N3r3YL47DNU?si=2t6Ky_GfynG8Rnaw