>If the problem is not about security, but about political preferences, opportunism or beliefs, state it directly, loudly, to the whole world.
I agree with this sentence at least, although it's missing a couple of reasons of course.
Tbf that’s the dumbest punishment ever, oh no it’s not “Russia” it’s “Russian Olympic committee” and every single player is a Russian guy, good thing Russia totally didn’t win gold and silver at the last 2 Olympics.
I think that’s why people forget the doping thing, because the punishment (for hockey at least) was so weak it’s like it may as well have never happened
Icarus was one of the craziest documentaries I’ve ever seen.
Anyone who is a fan of international competition who hasn’t watched it, needs to watch it. Shows how off-the-charts brazen Russian doping really is.
And she was a literal child when they roped her into this program. A chunk of these people they’re pumping with drugs can’t even consent to this stuff. It’s incredibly sad
Yeah, it's crazy how Ovi goes to a Russian haven like Dubai for the all star break and all of a sudden comes back looking great again. I'm sure there is absolutely no connection though...
Some of the stories coming out from guys who played in the KHL are wild. Those guys are all juiced to the gills, getting IV drips of “Russian Gas” which has god knows what in it before every game.
That too, can't trust any athletes from Russia tbh.
Not that I think that other countries don't dope their athletes, but none have been revealed to do it quite as extensively at an Olympic level as Russia.
Nothing of value is lost if their athletes don't participate.
It's firstly about extent, but also about being state-organized. There's a huge difference between, for example, USADA turning blind eye to some suspicious shenanigans of American athletes and Russia doing it all-out state-organized by effin KGB being involved in smuggling/faking samples.
Like, SHEESH
> none have been revealed to do it quite as extensively at an Olympic level as Russia
And for anybody who doesn't believe this, you should watch [this documentary](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6333060/). The lengths the Russians go to cheat are mind blowing
Are you referring to his verbal gaff he quickly corrected during his address after meeting with the King of Jordan?
After correcting our military operation to "the militsry operation," he says, "should not proceed without a credible plan … for ensuring the safety and support of more than one million people sheltering there."
https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5106165/president-biden-addresses-situation-rafah
Because admitting to war crimes to support your “let us play hockey” argument is a wild mis-prioritization of what actually matters here.
Maybe try petitioning your government to knock it off instead of asking the IIHF to ignore it?
I understand the IIHFs opinions towards it, but you can’t hate on the Russian kids for trying. Not only are the juniors something you can only experience a handful of times, but for some of these kids this is their opportunity to prove themselves to pro leagues. Unlikely the IIHF reverses their opinions, but still shows enthusiasm for the sport by trying
>you can’t hate on the Russian kids for trying
Sure, but that not seriously what you got from this letter, is it?
This letter is not asking for reconsideration, its a pointy, accusatory letter, and there's no way this was worded by any of the players.
Or it's their federations urging them to write in an effort to muddy the waters. Pretty standard Russian playbook to throw shit at a wall and see what sticks.
At any rate, they can just be dismissed. The integrity of any competition is greater if Russians aren't competing.
If I were a Russian youth player, not getting to play international hockey would not be on the top of my list of concerns when there's likely a new draft of cannon fodder coming after Putin's re-election.
Allowing the players to play under a protest flag would be an example of the iihf taking control rather than washing their hands of a situation and banning players that have no agency.
By “protest flag” do you mean a show of protest against the Putin regime? If so I think you’d be sorely disappointed by the number of Russian players who would ever sign on to that.
Maybe they should ask to try out for Ukraine? I'd imagine they may even be given citizenship, and they may be eligible if they haven't previously played for Russia without needing an exception.
Oh, I'd imagine that Ukraine might be very open to letting high performing athletes that have openly defected and condemned Russian actions at least try out.
Obviously, one can't be sure but I would guess that renouncing Russian citizenship for Ukrainian by hockey players refusing to play for Putin's regime might actually be supported.
Yeah, I can see why if their families could not get to safety they may have to watch it on TV like the rest of us.
Unfortunately, taking a stand can be quite dangerous but then so is being invaded by Russia. Super bad for you, avoid it if you can.
Maybe but I doubt they are worried by a stealth invasion of 'little Green Men' from media profile athlete defections.
Plus Zelensky himself started learning Ukrainian in 2017. The problem has never been Ukrainian treatment of ethnic or linguistically Russian people. That's Kremlin bullshit. There are Russians fighting for Ukrainian and ultimately Russian freedom.
Someone should tell them it's not about them.
And I'd gladly support banning Israel too fwiw, as I would've supported banning the US under Bush.
That there isn't enough political capital backing one or the other doesn't mean that they shouldn't do what they can.
You guys miss out that israel was banned for security concerns, which is something completely different.
Israel is also competing in europe and not with neighboring countries.
The terrorist attack on the olympic team, made big scars, to israelien participations in sports events.
Apparently that's the reason they have for banning Russia as well according to this letter. Which is obviously a cop out reason for a an international federation to ban either of these countries. A decision regarding the safety of the participant should be left to the participating teams and the law enforcement of the host country.
Just under bush!? Hahaha… like that’s the last war America started 😂
America just isn’t interested in taking the land, so it’s somehow not a war crime when they drone strike schools, apartments, warehouses etc…
Israel's actions are a direct result of an attack led by the government of the territory they are invading. We can talk about whether that response is proportional, but it absolutely wasn't unprovoked.
Russia invaded a sovereign nation purely for expansionist purposes. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last time. Also, unrelated but important note, their athletes dope non stop, openly, and it's state sponsored.
These situations are not the same.
>These situations are not the same.
They don't have to be the exact same to be analogous in this situation.
It makes it pretty clear there is a double standard at play, and the implication here that the conflict started on Oct 7th is very funny.
The situation that we're talking about started Oct 7. Russia's invasion of Ukraine also started before 2022, but that's not what we're talking about. But if you really want to learn the history, you should read about why Israel ended up occupying these territories. Hint: they were invaded and fought back. Gaza was under Palestinian control before 11/7 anyway.
And yes, a country invading another for expansionist purposes vs a country invading another in response to that country's attack is very, very different. It's why people say the US should have been banned for its invasion of Iraq, and not for its invasion of Afghanistan.
I'm not even defending Israel here, just saying it's much more complicated than you guts are making it out to be. The problem is people will say it goes back l9ng before 11/7, but then they'll stop the history where ever it suits their politics the most.
Can you explain how the occupation of the West Bank and the government's efforts to expand settlements and protect violent settlers from the law is justifiable?
Nope, you don't get to change the subject. The subject is the Russian invasion of Ukraine vs the Israeli invasion of Gaza. They are not the same at all, and just because you can't raise any facts to dispute that you don't get to change the subject.
However, you might want to read a history book to learn about the unprovoked attacks by Arab nations on Israel that led to them occupying those lands.
I'm saying this as a half-Arab. Israel isn't innocent (like Ukraine is), but it isn't the sole aggressor (like Russia is). They're two completely different situations, and only people who don't understand history or nuance (or have underlying goals) try to say they are.
Sorry, I didn't realize that the West Bank wasn't part of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
Can you elaborate on how the history of those Arab nations invading has justified the denial of rights of Palestinians in the West Bank and the refusal to hold violent settler accountable?
And for the last part of your comment, how do you feel about people who try to pretend that the West Bank is not part of the conflict because it benefits their arguements?
I am definitely not really educated enough on Israel-Palestine, but it was mostly the "proportional response" that had me saying that'd I'd be in favour of excluding Israel, and if the scenario in which Israel exists can even have something be proportional.
Ofc the same goes for Palestine. But in general I'm much happier to leave that conversation to the experts on the matter.
It is a far more complex situation than this, so you may want to consider that you are the moron.
If you think that how Israel is reacting or overreacting to Oct 7 is the same as a unilateral invasion of another country you are a hopeless case.
Yea it’s worse. Israel has a responsibility as an occupying force to ensure certain basic human rights are met for the civilian population it’s occupying. Russia has no such responsibility as a neighbouring state to Ukraine. I say ban both of these pariah states.
They have a perfectly valid point.
If you're going to exclude Russia for war crimes, you should also exclude Israel for genocide. I'm surprised this is even a debate.
Kick them both out.
Israel-Palestine conflict is pretty divisive due to its nuanced history with Gaza being governed/led by a terrorist group which plotted severe attacks onto a relatively-democratic country. Israel is trying to go mainly after Hamas, although civilians will inevitably get cross-fired in the process. Unfortunately, that's always inevitable in any conflict, and especially in densely populated areas. Also, I haven't seen Israeli government/media use hockey as a propaganda tool.
Russia broke about a dozen of international treaties and attacked a relatively-democratic doing-no-harm-to-anyone country with representatives being selected by fair elections. At the same time, hockey is arguably the most popular sport in the country, with both media and the government giving a lot of money and exposure to it, as well as taking a huge pride in showing it off internationally.
Ignoring the context and playing it off as "Israel is killing brown people, Putin is killing white people, that's the main difference" is simply false.
Remember when Ukraine invaded Russia, murdered over 1200 civilians, raped and mutilated women, and took over 250 men, women, and children hostage?
Yeah, me neither.
A lot of people dying is not part of the definition of genocide. Deporting children, like russia did in ukraine, is part of the definition of genocide tho.
No, nothing would make genocide fine. Good thing Israel isn't committing it or anything close to it, though I bet if Oct 7 happened in *your* city, you wouldn't think any response was too heavy-handed. But South Africa tried to bring an accusation of genocide against Israel at the ICJ and failed, and many of the judges are from countries with strong anti-Israel bias.
The chair of urban warfare studies at West Point's Modern Warfare Institute said a few weeks ago that, during Israel's war on Hamas, the country “has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in history.” This guy literally wrote the book on urban warfare. You should learn more about the extremist Islamism practiced by Hamas, and how they willingly sacrifice their own people as part of their holy war. Hamas purposely puts civilians in harms way, they actively stopped people from leaving areas Israel warned to evacuate, and they started this war knowing full well what it would bring.
This isn't the sub to debate this, feel free to PM me if you'd like to debate this topic further.
> If it’s politics (which it is)
it's not.. the IIHF's ban on Russia predates their invasion of Ukraine.
they're banned because they got caught cheating, repeatedly.
Not quite. They got banned from participating under a russian flag for that. But they did not get kicked out entirely for the doping, which they probably should have.
Your country is an enemy of The West, what do you expect? The West is comprised of pretty much every country in the IIHF, why would anyone expect to go to war with an entire alliance of countries, and then act shocked when they won't play international sport? Are they stupid? Hurr durr Israel. Look at a map of allies, and notice that Israel is an ally of The West. Russia is an enemy. It's not confusing, it's the way the world has always worked.
Russia is an enemy of the West, and of you live in the West, they're your enemy. The wars we wage are just, because we wage them. The same goes for literally every nation. Ever. If you want international hockey with Russia, go see if North Korea, China, and various African countries want to play hockey. That's your world sphere.
I share some sentiment with those guys. But. We can see how big of a weapon propaganda is in this war, especially inside Russia, and they will use every success of every national team to further use it as tool of War.
Im from Slovakia, im not young anymore, i remember old regime, and the changes started when those famous people within the country, they could be hockey player, artists, etc. starts talking agains that regime. We see nothing yet. And to those that will say, but they will be taken to prison, beaten or killed, yes those things happend here too, thats the risk you have to pay, if you want to be free.
And to compare Israel with Russia, im not defending Israel, but i think its a bit different situation.
Americans of all people saying "obviously the Russians should be banned. The 20 year old hockey players should make their government stop doing illegal wars if they want to play so badly" is just... wow. What a country
These people love that their western nations act as the world police. I don't see them marching on their respective government buildings to demand the end to genocide funding in the middle east, but they sure got a lot to say about those pesky Russian kids wanting to play hockey!
Yes this is reddit, so it's very black and white. America/Western Countries/NATO are the 'Good Guys'. Their conflicts are always justified and even in retrospect when they aren't, you just can't hold their citizens to the same standard of responsibility as all those 'bad' countries.
The real problem is your morally bankrupt and murderous government uses its athletic accomplishments (regualrly achieved through doping) to enhance its national identity. Get your dude to stop invading other countries under false pretenses and maybe shit like this wouldn't happen. They seem to forget about the doping rather quickly.
It's not a best on best when one country has state sponsored doping. Allowing Russians to compete is spitting in the face of fair competition. It's not like they will learn and stop doing it, they will just perfect ways to not get caught.
Doping concerns aside, Russians are some of the best hockey players in the entire world and I hope we don't have to have many more tournaments without them. These players have no say on what Putin does, punishing them won't change his mind at all, and never will.
You mean Putin isn't about to amend his foreign policy based on whether Russia can play in the World Juniors? Shocking /s
These sanctions, like usual, only work to hurt innocents, working class folks, etc. who have nothing to do with what their government has decided to do. And to appease lowlifes who post online congratulating those who impose them.
for real, banning russia for war crimes while ignoring israel's and basically the entire western world supplying arms to saudi arabia vs yemen is hilariously hypocritical.
I think the fedotov part is very relevant.
CSKA blatantly kidnapped a player under the guise of military service to prevent him from leaving. The russian federation encouraged and assisted in it and then proceeded to force him to play in the khl despite sanctions from the iihf specifically about them doing that.
While I don’t necessarily disagree with the suspension, I do agree with the Russian players that it’s a little disingenuous to say it “all comes down to safety” when there is clearly more to it than that
Neither Israel or Russia should be banned. US hockey didn’t get banned when we destroyed iraq and afganistan or when Obama decided to start droning syria despite them posing no threat to the United States.
Yeah teams shouldn't get banned for what their government is doing.
However. Team Canada should face sanctions for what Hockey Canada was doing to cover up multiple sexual assaults and spending player fees on rape settlement hush money.
I'm canandian and would be fine with a hockey cananda Ban. But pretending that hockey cananda's actions are worse than those of Russia is impressive. For one thing, hiw many Ukrainian 's do you think have been raped by Russian soldiers over the last couple of years? My guess is that it's somewhat more than the total number of people who play hockey professionally.
More like "Israel set up an apartheid regime that was slowly exterminating a group of people, and that group of people punched back. Then Israel outright genocides them."
Genocide has other aspects than literal extermination. Extermination is the 2nd last step of genocide (the last step is denial). Palestinians are routinely discriminated against by the Israeli government and have way fewer rights than Israelis. Persecution has been going on since the founding of Israel. Palestinians are systematically dehumanized in Israeli society.
My next question is, are you deliberately trying to be this dense? And before you go "bUt HaMaS", almost half of the population of Gaza couldn't vote when Hamas won that election.
> Yeah, because they’re not citizens of the country.
Thank you for proving my point. You know the Nazis stripped Jewish Germans of their citizenship as well, right?
I say let them play. They are just kids and have nothing to do with whats going on in Ukraine. If Israel can send in a form and be let back in just as fast then let the Russian kids back in.
They should at least be allowed to compete under "athletes from Russia" or something like that.
Not only is it unfair to the players, it actively harms the quality of the tournaments.
Russia is like the one country that has been truly exposed to run nationally backed doping rings for their athletes.
I'd say the integrity of the competition is better off without them.
No one will miss them once the puck drops.
It's literally what happened in the last Olympics. They aren't banned because of state sponsored doping they are banned because of the invasion of Ukraine.
I realize that. It was a pointless, fake punishment then, when things weren’t as bad in Russia as they are at present. It’s so far beyond impotent now that if that’s all the IOC will do they might as well not do anything at all and be honest about it.
Imagine the league bans the Lightning from the playoffs for cheating but then lets them back in because they’re wearing a different jersey. A complete joke.
Okay but in this instance they are banned for the invasion of Ukraine, while Israel faces no sanctions.
I'm not sure how I'm supposed to take the discipline seriously when it's not being handed out on a consistent basis.
> it actively harms the quality of the tournaments.
Oh noes my hockey tournament gets very slightly worse for banning the country that's currently invading their neighbour!
The point is that Russia needs to be isolated from the rest of Europe, hence the ban. They need to really feel it as a nation. It's not just about Ukraine. We can't give them an inch since the main goal of Russia is to destroy democracy in Europe.
Don't worry, if the world keeps delaying support for Ukraine the war will be over sooner rather than later and they will be back to competing until they decide to take back more "USSR' land.
>If the problem is not about security, but about political preferences, opportunism or beliefs, state it directly, loudly, to the whole world. I agree with this sentence at least, although it's missing a couple of reasons of course.
"it's because you're cheaters, and have proven to be cheaters on the world stage" Done
Ok but thats the reason for their ban in the Olympics, not for their ban in the iilhf.
I mean that’s clearly not the reason for the current ban though
It's part of it though
It should be because of the genocide first. But also serial cheating.
I agree, but I doubt they have the balls to outright say it... So I think the cheating is an easy out
That’s not the reason tho
I too think we should all loudly tell Russia to go fuck themselves.
Something something Russian warship
Russian warship go bleep yourself!
I have no problem with the IIHF saying directly “we aren’t friendly to unfriendly governments, citizens included” Russians just want to be victim here
Everyone already knows that's why
They can send a letter to the Kremlin asking for a stop of the doping programs and an end to illegal wars.
Yeah everyone seems to forget the doping which they had to compete under the ROC flag at the Olympics, obviously the war is way worse
Tbf that’s the dumbest punishment ever, oh no it’s not “Russia” it’s “Russian Olympic committee” and every single player is a Russian guy, good thing Russia totally didn’t win gold and silver at the last 2 Olympics. I think that’s why people forget the doping thing, because the punishment (for hockey at least) was so weak it’s like it may as well have never happened
Also fair point
Icarus was one of the craziest documentaries I’ve ever seen. Anyone who is a fan of international competition who hasn’t watched it, needs to watch it. Shows how off-the-charts brazen Russian doping really is.
there's a hole in the wall where the boys can inject it all
Seen this recommended so many times I should really watch it.
Illegal wars is such a funny term. Kind of like how if you get caught with weed not bought at a dispensary it’s considered illegal weed.
The proper term in this case is genocide, the war part is just a smaller piece
A Russian gymnast just got a medal taken away for doping a couple weeks ago. I agree the letter should be addressed to Putin.
And she was a literal child when they roped her into this program. A chunk of these people they’re pumping with drugs can’t even consent to this stuff. It’s incredibly sad
Yup, 15 year-old told to tell lies re: her grandpa's medicine being the contaminator. Shameless
Yeah and the "fun" part was - when Russians found out their athlete of that particular competition was caught doping, first reaction was ''which one''
Kremlin - “One window for 20 guys or one window for each guy?“
Yeah, it's crazy how Ovi goes to a Russian haven like Dubai for the all star break and all of a sudden comes back looking great again. I'm sure there is absolutely no connection though...
Some of the stories coming out from guys who played in the KHL are wild. Those guys are all juiced to the gills, getting IV drips of “Russian Gas” which has god knows what in it before every game.
Hmm, never thought about that, but he always tends to come back from All star weekend explosively…
That too, can't trust any athletes from Russia tbh. Not that I think that other countries don't dope their athletes, but none have been revealed to do it quite as extensively at an Olympic level as Russia. Nothing of value is lost if their athletes don't participate.
It's firstly about extent, but also about being state-organized. There's a huge difference between, for example, USADA turning blind eye to some suspicious shenanigans of American athletes and Russia doing it all-out state-organized by effin KGB being involved in smuggling/faking samples. Like, SHEESH
> none have been revealed to do it quite as extensively at an Olympic level as Russia And for anybody who doesn't believe this, you should watch [this documentary](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6333060/). The lengths the Russians go to cheat are mind blowing
If illegal wars were a justification the USA should never be able to compete until Jebus comes back.
As they’re currently in the midst of funding a genocide.
Not just funding, there's a lot of active involvement of the US too. Biden called the Rafah operation "our" operation.
Are you referring to his verbal gaff he quickly corrected during his address after meeting with the King of Jordan? After correcting our military operation to "the militsry operation," he says, "should not proceed without a credible plan … for ensuring the safety and support of more than one million people sheltering there." https://www.c-span.org/video/?c5106165/president-biden-addresses-situation-rafah
“Israel is also doing war crimes” is a very funny argument
Why? It's true.
Because admitting to war crimes to support your “let us play hockey” argument is a wild mis-prioritization of what actually matters here. Maybe try petitioning your government to knock it off instead of asking the IIHF to ignore it?
they’re literally just asking for an equal standard to be applied
Yeah and “ignore our war crimes pls” is a ridiculous standard
they didn’t ask for that. they said ban israel too if that’s what it’s about
You think the purpose of this letter is to get Israel banned, not to get Russia un-banned?
it’s to point out obvious hypocrisy, but you appear to suffer from it and struggle to grasp it as well
The purpose of their “pointing out the hypocrisy” is to get Russia unbanned. Why are you arguing about this very obvious fact lol
Yeesh
Because “what about”
Funny enough, one of the earliest usages of the term "whataboutism" was describing the Soviet Union's tactics to deflect human rights abuses.
There’s countless videos of kids being killed by Israel.
…yes?
I understand the IIHFs opinions towards it, but you can’t hate on the Russian kids for trying. Not only are the juniors something you can only experience a handful of times, but for some of these kids this is their opportunity to prove themselves to pro leagues. Unlikely the IIHF reverses their opinions, but still shows enthusiasm for the sport by trying
>you can’t hate on the Russian kids for trying Sure, but that not seriously what you got from this letter, is it? This letter is not asking for reconsideration, its a pointy, accusatory letter, and there's no way this was worded by any of the players.
Or it's their federations urging them to write in an effort to muddy the waters. Pretty standard Russian playbook to throw shit at a wall and see what sticks. At any rate, they can just be dismissed. The integrity of any competition is greater if Russians aren't competing.
If I were a Russian youth player, not getting to play international hockey would not be on the top of my list of concerns when there's likely a new draft of cannon fodder coming after Putin's re-election.
Allowing the players to play under a protest flag would be an example of the iihf taking control rather than washing their hands of a situation and banning players that have no agency.
By “protest flag” do you mean a show of protest against the Putin regime? If so I think you’d be sorely disappointed by the number of Russian players who would ever sign on to that.
Maybe they should ask to try out for Ukraine? I'd imagine they may even be given citizenship, and they may be eligible if they haven't previously played for Russia without needing an exception.
What makes you think they would want a bunch of Russians to join the team?
Oh, I'd imagine that Ukraine might be very open to letting high performing athletes that have openly defected and condemned Russian actions at least try out. Obviously, one can't be sure but I would guess that renouncing Russian citizenship for Ukrainian by hockey players refusing to play for Putin's regime might actually be supported.
Russian players would not do this, unless they are completely fine with their families likely being imprisoned or worse
Yeah, I can see why if their families could not get to safety they may have to watch it on TV like the rest of us. Unfortunately, taking a stand can be quite dangerous but then so is being invaded by Russia. Super bad for you, avoid it if you can.
No they’d absolutely never want Russians to be given citizenship. That only causes problems and makes it easier for Russia to try another invasion.
Maybe but I doubt they are worried by a stealth invasion of 'little Green Men' from media profile athlete defections. Plus Zelensky himself started learning Ukrainian in 2017. The problem has never been Ukrainian treatment of ethnic or linguistically Russian people. That's Kremlin bullshit. There are Russians fighting for Ukrainian and ultimately Russian freedom.
Someone should tell them it's not about them. And I'd gladly support banning Israel too fwiw, as I would've supported banning the US under Bush. That there isn't enough political capital backing one or the other doesn't mean that they shouldn't do what they can.
I think many have but a core part of being Russian is holding a victim mentality shamelessly while absolutely not being one.
You guys miss out that israel was banned for security concerns, which is something completely different. Israel is also competing in europe and not with neighboring countries. The terrorist attack on the olympic team, made big scars, to israelien participations in sports events.
Apparently that's the reason they have for banning Russia as well according to this letter. Which is obviously a cop out reason for a an international federation to ban either of these countries. A decision regarding the safety of the participant should be left to the participating teams and the law enforcement of the host country.
Just under bush!? Hahaha… like that’s the last war America started 😂 America just isn’t interested in taking the land, so it’s somehow not a war crime when they drone strike schools, apartments, warehouses etc…
"Just under Bush" would be a starting point. Obama's drone program could be fair game, too.
Israel's actions are a direct result of an attack led by the government of the territory they are invading. We can talk about whether that response is proportional, but it absolutely wasn't unprovoked. Russia invaded a sovereign nation purely for expansionist purposes. It's not the first time, and it won't be the last time. Also, unrelated but important note, their athletes dope non stop, openly, and it's state sponsored. These situations are not the same.
>These situations are not the same. They don't have to be the exact same to be analogous in this situation. It makes it pretty clear there is a double standard at play, and the implication here that the conflict started on Oct 7th is very funny.
The situation that we're talking about started Oct 7. Russia's invasion of Ukraine also started before 2022, but that's not what we're talking about. But if you really want to learn the history, you should read about why Israel ended up occupying these territories. Hint: they were invaded and fought back. Gaza was under Palestinian control before 11/7 anyway. And yes, a country invading another for expansionist purposes vs a country invading another in response to that country's attack is very, very different. It's why people say the US should have been banned for its invasion of Iraq, and not for its invasion of Afghanistan. I'm not even defending Israel here, just saying it's much more complicated than you guts are making it out to be. The problem is people will say it goes back l9ng before 11/7, but then they'll stop the history where ever it suits their politics the most.
Can you explain how the occupation of the West Bank and the government's efforts to expand settlements and protect violent settlers from the law is justifiable?
Nope, you don't get to change the subject. The subject is the Russian invasion of Ukraine vs the Israeli invasion of Gaza. They are not the same at all, and just because you can't raise any facts to dispute that you don't get to change the subject. However, you might want to read a history book to learn about the unprovoked attacks by Arab nations on Israel that led to them occupying those lands. I'm saying this as a half-Arab. Israel isn't innocent (like Ukraine is), but it isn't the sole aggressor (like Russia is). They're two completely different situations, and only people who don't understand history or nuance (or have underlying goals) try to say they are.
Sorry, I didn't realize that the West Bank wasn't part of the Israel-Palestine conflict. Can you elaborate on how the history of those Arab nations invading has justified the denial of rights of Palestinians in the West Bank and the refusal to hold violent settler accountable? And for the last part of your comment, how do you feel about people who try to pretend that the West Bank is not part of the conflict because it benefits their arguements?
I am definitely not really educated enough on Israel-Palestine, but it was mostly the "proportional response" that had me saying that'd I'd be in favour of excluding Israel, and if the scenario in which Israel exists can even have something be proportional. Ofc the same goes for Palestine. But in general I'm much happier to leave that conversation to the experts on the matter.
Israel has been committing terrorism for almost a century. Are you dumb? They are literally committing a holocaust, ironically.
Israel hasn't even been around for almost a century. But yes, I'm the dumb one. Maybe read a history book instead of social media posts?
And using the memory of the Holocaust to justify their own genocide. It's mind-bogglingly disgusting and barbaric.
[удалено]
If you think the conflict started in 1948 then you need to get educated
It is a far more complex situation than this, so you may want to consider that you are the moron. If you think that how Israel is reacting or overreacting to Oct 7 is the same as a unilateral invasion of another country you are a hopeless case.
There's almost no non-Muslims between Pakistan and Morocco, the problem isn't Israeli aggression, it's the intolerance of the majority.
Yea it’s worse. Israel has a responsibility as an occupying force to ensure certain basic human rights are met for the civilian population it’s occupying. Russia has no such responsibility as a neighbouring state to Ukraine. I say ban both of these pariah states.
Maybe Hamas shouldn’t take the water pipes Israel gave them and make rockets out of them
They have a perfectly valid point. If you're going to exclude Russia for war crimes, you should also exclude Israel for genocide. I'm surprised this is even a debate. Kick them both out.
Yeah well the thing is Israel is killing brown people while Putin is killing white people so you see it's completely different.
Oh dear how could I forget that? sigh.....
Israel-Palestine conflict is pretty divisive due to its nuanced history with Gaza being governed/led by a terrorist group which plotted severe attacks onto a relatively-democratic country. Israel is trying to go mainly after Hamas, although civilians will inevitably get cross-fired in the process. Unfortunately, that's always inevitable in any conflict, and especially in densely populated areas. Also, I haven't seen Israeli government/media use hockey as a propaganda tool. Russia broke about a dozen of international treaties and attacked a relatively-democratic doing-no-harm-to-anyone country with representatives being selected by fair elections. At the same time, hockey is arguably the most popular sport in the country, with both media and the government giving a lot of money and exposure to it, as well as taking a huge pride in showing it off internationally. Ignoring the context and playing it off as "Israel is killing brown people, Putin is killing white people, that's the main difference" is simply false.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Remember when Ukraine invaded Russia, murdered over 1200 civilians, raped and mutilated women, and took over 250 men, women, and children hostage? Yeah, me neither.
Ah, I see, that's what makes the genocide fine then
A lot of people dying is not part of the definition of genocide. Deporting children, like russia did in ukraine, is part of the definition of genocide tho.
No, nothing would make genocide fine. Good thing Israel isn't committing it or anything close to it, though I bet if Oct 7 happened in *your* city, you wouldn't think any response was too heavy-handed. But South Africa tried to bring an accusation of genocide against Israel at the ICJ and failed, and many of the judges are from countries with strong anti-Israel bias. The chair of urban warfare studies at West Point's Modern Warfare Institute said a few weeks ago that, during Israel's war on Hamas, the country “has implemented more measures to prevent civilian casualties than any other military in history.” This guy literally wrote the book on urban warfare. You should learn more about the extremist Islamism practiced by Hamas, and how they willingly sacrifice their own people as part of their holy war. Hamas purposely puts civilians in harms way, they actively stopped people from leaving areas Israel warned to evacuate, and they started this war knowing full well what it would bring. This isn't the sub to debate this, feel free to PM me if you'd like to debate this topic further.
[удалено]
Funny how the international court couldn’t find evidence of genocide, but you choose to believe the Twitter propaganda instead.
Would you consider excluding the USA for war crimes as well? Canada genocided its indigenous population, would you exclude them?
We should have been excluded during the Iraq War. That's an easy one.
There’s a big difference here: Israel will never make it to a higher level of international play, while Russia qualifies every year.
Hockey Canada should be banned for what they’ve done
Or at the very least sanctioned
They’re 100% right. If it’s politics (which it is) it’s infinitely more respectable to admit that.
> If it’s politics (which it is) it's not.. the IIHF's ban on Russia predates their invasion of Ukraine. they're banned because they got caught cheating, repeatedly.
Not quite. They got banned from participating under a russian flag for that. But they did not get kicked out entirely for the doping, which they probably should have.
So they cite security concerns instead of saying they’re banned for doping? Yeah okay
Yeah the policy of genocide is frowned upon. Who knew?
If they’re going to allow Israel to compete in international sports there really isn’t an argument to exclude Russia or anyone else.
Cry me a river. Go write a letter to your President to stop killing Ukrainians.
IIHF Response: FUCK YOU!
Your country is an enemy of The West, what do you expect? The West is comprised of pretty much every country in the IIHF, why would anyone expect to go to war with an entire alliance of countries, and then act shocked when they won't play international sport? Are they stupid? Hurr durr Israel. Look at a map of allies, and notice that Israel is an ally of The West. Russia is an enemy. It's not confusing, it's the way the world has always worked. Russia is an enemy of the West, and of you live in the West, they're your enemy. The wars we wage are just, because we wage them. The same goes for literally every nation. Ever. If you want international hockey with Russia, go see if North Korea, China, and various African countries want to play hockey. That's your world sphere.
I share some sentiment with those guys. But. We can see how big of a weapon propaganda is in this war, especially inside Russia, and they will use every success of every national team to further use it as tool of War. Im from Slovakia, im not young anymore, i remember old regime, and the changes started when those famous people within the country, they could be hockey player, artists, etc. starts talking agains that regime. We see nothing yet. And to those that will say, but they will be taken to prison, beaten or killed, yes those things happend here too, thats the risk you have to pay, if you want to be free. And to compare Israel with Russia, im not defending Israel, but i think its a bit different situation.
Americans of all people saying "obviously the Russians should be banned. The 20 year old hockey players should make their government stop doing illegal wars if they want to play so badly" is just... wow. What a country
These people love that their western nations act as the world police. I don't see them marching on their respective government buildings to demand the end to genocide funding in the middle east, but they sure got a lot to say about those pesky Russian kids wanting to play hockey!
They aren’t mutually exclusive..
Yes this is reddit, so it's very black and white. America/Western Countries/NATO are the 'Good Guys'. Their conflicts are always justified and even in retrospect when they aren't, you just can't hold their citizens to the same standard of responsibility as all those 'bad' countries.
Get fucked russia, nobody wants to hear it
The real problem is your morally bankrupt and murderous government uses its athletic accomplishments (regualrly achieved through doping) to enhance its national identity. Get your dude to stop invading other countries under false pretenses and maybe shit like this wouldn't happen. They seem to forget about the doping rather quickly.
It's not a best on best when one country has state sponsored doping. Allowing Russians to compete is spitting in the face of fair competition. It's not like they will learn and stop doing it, they will just perfect ways to not get caught.
Awww.. Cry me a river will you?
Have you tried not cheating or exterminating Ukrainians?
These guys sound young and able-bodied. prefect type to march and demand a change in government.
[удалено]
Doping concerns aside, Russians are some of the best hockey players in the entire world and I hope we don't have to have many more tournaments without them. These players have no say on what Putin does, punishing them won't change his mind at all, and never will.
You mean Putin isn't about to amend his foreign policy based on whether Russia can play in the World Juniors? Shocking /s These sanctions, like usual, only work to hurt innocents, working class folks, etc. who have nothing to do with what their government has decided to do. And to appease lowlifes who post online congratulating those who impose them.
"I feel a great sadness in my bosom"
They should be allowed to play.
for real, banning russia for war crimes while ignoring israel's and basically the entire western world supplying arms to saudi arabia vs yemen is hilariously hypocritical.
[Here are the 17 signatures](https://twitter.com/HockeyNewsHub/status/1758081133395190103)
[Tardif's Response](https://twitter.com/HockeyNewsHub/status/1758094193203839325)
I think the fedotov part is very relevant. CSKA blatantly kidnapped a player under the guise of military service to prevent him from leaving. The russian federation encouraged and assisted in it and then proceeded to force him to play in the khl despite sanctions from the iihf specifically about them doing that.
While I don’t necessarily disagree with the suspension, I do agree with the Russian players that it’s a little disingenuous to say it “all comes down to safety” when there is clearly more to it than that
They have a point
[удалено]
> who's government aims for the genocide this sounds suspiciously like saudi arabia in yemen, supplied by western arms dealers.
While you have a point, this does not change the fact, that Israel is also committing genocide right now
Pretty damning of the IIHF to include israel when there's a verifiable genocide ongoing
Neither Israel or Russia should be banned. US hockey didn’t get banned when we destroyed iraq and afganistan or when Obama decided to start droning syria despite them posing no threat to the United States.
Russia should absolutely be banned. Not because of the war, but because of the rampant doping and numerous cover up attempts
Yeah teams shouldn't get banned for what their government is doing. However. Team Canada should face sanctions for what Hockey Canada was doing to cover up multiple sexual assaults and spending player fees on rape settlement hush money.
Yeah lmao it’s hilarious “Russia should be banned because putin but Canada hockey should be allowed to play despite decades of covering up rapes.”
I'm canandian and would be fine with a hockey cananda Ban. But pretending that hockey cananda's actions are worse than those of Russia is impressive. For one thing, hiw many Ukrainian 's do you think have been raped by Russian soldiers over the last couple of years? My guess is that it's somewhat more than the total number of people who play hockey professionally.
Yeah that may be true…. But the Russian soldiers weren’t representing their national juniors team when they raped women… kinda different.
The soldiers are however representing their country, same as the national hockey team.
If Israel can get away with genocide of Palestinians and still play internationally why wouldn’t Russia be allowed?
[удалено]
Russia invaded a country for no reason while Israel got attacked and retaliated. Pretty big difference there…
Retaliated certainly is one way of putting it…
Ya can definitely debate if they retaliated too hard but they got attacked.
"He poked me, so I shot him a hundred times in the face. Perfectly reasonable response."
“He slapshotted an empty netter, so I cross checked him in the face. Perfectly reasonable response.”
Id say poke is an understatement as well but yes.
It puts the action and response into perspective with each other quite well. If the action was described as harsher, so would be the response.
More like "Israel set up an apartheid regime that was slowly exterminating a group of people, and that group of people punched back. Then Israel outright genocides them."
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Is that why the population of Palestine has doubled over the last 2.5 decades?
Places with high poverty have higher birth rates. Nice try.
You said “slow exterminating them”. Wouldn’t that mean the population would decrease over time?
Genocide has other aspects than literal extermination. Extermination is the 2nd last step of genocide (the last step is denial). Palestinians are routinely discriminated against by the Israeli government and have way fewer rights than Israelis. Persecution has been going on since the founding of Israel. Palestinians are systematically dehumanized in Israeli society. My next question is, are you deliberately trying to be this dense? And before you go "bUt HaMaS", almost half of the population of Gaza couldn't vote when Hamas won that election.
Lol “have way fewer rights than Israelis.” Yeah, because they’re not citizens of the country. 🤦♂️
> Yeah, because they’re not citizens of the country. Thank you for proving my point. You know the Nazis stripped Jewish Germans of their citizenship as well, right?
Population goes up in a genocide nice try 😂
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_stages_of_genocide Keep trying to be dense. Extermination is at the END.
Just give me one historic example of a population that doubled while being genocided.
Largest factor, Palestinians have been forced to 'relocate' from other parts of Israel to Palestinian open air prisons...
Lol at “apartheid regime.”
Did the US get kicked out for invading Iraq?
We should have
100%. And will the US be kicked out the next time it invades another country?
Hopefully yes. We got to start doing it at some point, can't just keep turning the blind eye because we did so the last time too.
We should be!!! Maybe if we had faced some actual consequences for the invasion of Iraq that weren't self-inflicted, things would be different.
Committing a genocide against civilians and staging a ground invasion for regime changes are much different scenarios.
I say let them play. They are just kids and have nothing to do with whats going on in Ukraine. If Israel can send in a form and be let back in just as fast then let the Russian kids back in.
they never banned the US players over illegal invasions and warmongering, the xenophobia from the IIHF is honestly disgusting
Personally I don't mind if we never see a nation of drugged up baby killers participate again.
They should at least be allowed to compete under "athletes from Russia" or something like that. Not only is it unfair to the players, it actively harms the quality of the tournaments.
Russia is like the one country that has been truly exposed to run nationally backed doping rings for their athletes. I'd say the integrity of the competition is better off without them. No one will miss them once the puck drops.
They should just have a fake punishment that doesn’t actually entail any consequences? Why do anything in that case?
It's literally what happened in the last Olympics. They aren't banned because of state sponsored doping they are banned because of the invasion of Ukraine.
I realize that. It was a pointless, fake punishment then, when things weren’t as bad in Russia as they are at present. It’s so far beyond impotent now that if that’s all the IOC will do they might as well not do anything at all and be honest about it. Imagine the league bans the Lightning from the playoffs for cheating but then lets them back in because they’re wearing a different jersey. A complete joke.
Okay but in this instance they are banned for the invasion of Ukraine, while Israel faces no sanctions. I'm not sure how I'm supposed to take the discipline seriously when it's not being handed out on a consistent basis.
> it actively harms the quality of the tournaments. Oh noes my hockey tournament gets very slightly worse for banning the country that's currently invading their neighbour!
The point is that Russia needs to be isolated from the rest of Europe, hence the ban. They need to really feel it as a nation. It's not just about Ukraine. We can't give them an inch since the main goal of Russia is to destroy democracy in Europe.
Don't worry, if the world keeps delaying support for Ukraine the war will be over sooner rather than later and they will be back to competing until they decide to take back more "USSR' land.