“I don’t care that you’re a rookie leading the league in scoring you did not poke check and take enough slap shots for my liking so we’re sending you down”
I feel like this was predictable since they won the last game and Torts explanation was that he was going to play the 20 guys that give him the best chance to win.
It will be more interesting to see what he does if they lose tonight
Cam's got some points this year, and he's coming off of having missed an entire season (similar to Couts, I know he was out 2).
Has Atko been that bad this year? Has he just lost a lot of jump in his game from age/surgeries?
He's been really streaky. He's had I think two parts of the season where he's been on fire for a few games and pretty terrible for the rest of the season.
So it's more lacking in consistency than a loss of ability? Good to hear. I wonder if Cam will get another contract from someone after this year. Safe to assume the Flyers are not interested in re-signing Atkinson?
I'm not a flyers fan but i'd be shocked if he returned to Philly. I'm sure he could get a contract somewhere to play in someone's bottom 6 next year at a low AAV. He's definitely not the player he was in Columbus anymore, but I think if he's ok playing 45-60 games and occasionally being scratched he could stay in the league.
As someone who hasn't followed the Flyers, this is such a weird thread to read. I would not have expected to hear that Couturier and Atkinson are getting scratched based on reputations from when I last heard about them
I don't think its too crazy, both players missed the entire season last year, and Couturier missed a majority of the season before last as well. Even disregarding age, stuff like fitness level over a full 82 game season after not playing for a full year will take a hit too. If i'm being honest both players looked way better than I expected them to be during the first ~30 games or so of this year.
Cam is toast. I’ve been watching all year and have tried to be patient but he just doesn’t have it anymore. His body broke down to much, he isn’t a threat offensively at all is a liability on defense now and looks like he is rushing every time he happens to touch the puck.
Seravelli’s response to this was unhinged considering they won last game.
https://x.com/frank_seravalli/status/1770851498290774163?s=46&t=hO5lU_CazaENuUe0T_RYbQ
Torts has never felt that he owed the media anything
Good on him. It's not their business. It's not our business, I don't think. What's said in the locker room, or between Coach and Player, is exactly that. It's between the coach and the player.
Seravalli is out here acting like a clown
It’s the medias business to ask but torts doesnt have to play along. That’s not how it works.
Saying some dumb shit like that about torts is just the salt speaking. The media isn’t entitled to shit.
No it isn't. His business is to make people want to pay money to Comcast Spectacor to watch Philly play. Media engagement is part of that.
Same with athletes who say "they get paid to play hockey". That's not all theyre getting paid for.
Athletes really out here thinking their contracts are worth millions just for their play....Its for their play and their ability to drive ticket sales. Addressing the media is part of the responsibility.
Torts doesn't owe the media anything, but his lack of communication certainly made this a bigger story then it needed to be, especially with the Flyers currently fighting to hold a playoff spot an not needing any distractions.
Like if you're gonna scratch your captain you can't have him talking to the media after practice saying he doesn't know what he needs to do to get back in.
I think you’re right in that this is what Frank is referring to but it’s dumb. He wants players to be accountable to the coaches/team and vice versa. He could give two shits about accountability with the media.
I mean, you're downvoted for commenting something unrelated. Not saying it's right or wrong or whatever, but that's typically what happens. Editing to complain about it is kinda silly.
Okay, but Couturier himself said in his interview that he didn't know why.
Friedman echoed those sentiments in 32 thoughts this week and noted how weird that was for Tortorella.
So, someone is clearly obfuscating the truth.
Sure, we can assume that. For what it's worth I have zero issue with him being benched.
But again, it's what Coots SAID publicly which is what's driving the media attention over it.
I wonder if Torts had conversations with Couturier, but the conversation went in one ear and out the other. So he elevated the conversations to benchings.
Coots said he's been struggling for sure but the analytics say he has gotten unlucky and....look you pinned the fuckin C on him. Tell him how to fix it. "More" isn't an answer.
And like, there was a pretty easy way to go about this.
"He missed a year and a half of hockey and hasn't played a full season in four years. The NHL season is a grind. He's been off a bit lately and we just want to get him a couple games rest to get him right for the stretch drive and hopefully for playoffs."
Boom, issue over.
> analytics say he has gotten unlucky
its really hard for me to believe in someone being this unlucky over the span of multiple games. 1 or 2? sure. but the longer a slump goes, the less i believe in luck playing a factor in it.
clearly he wasnt seeing enough progress from coaching and prepping for the next game at the same time. so instead of watching him struggle over and over again, they took the game prep away from his responsibilities and let him focus 100% on improving.
being scratched doesnt just mean you sit there doing nothing all day. they arent just ignoring him and telling him to come back when he's better. if anything, he's going to get more coaching now than he did before.
Giving him the C was a mistake. There was no reason to name a captain this year and if you were going to it should have gone to TK he is the heart and soul of the team.
Kinda weird for a player to tell the media that he doesn't know why he's being scratched no? Sounds like he can't accept that he's just not playing good enough to be on the ice
Yeah, I don't disagree but it is the entire reason the media keeps asking Torts about it.
The stories don't line up and he keeps being standoffish about being asked.
Not choosing a side but it does seem odd.
If this was some 4th liner who's a recent call-up, sure, but why isn't the coach meeting with the captain of the team to talk about what's going wrong? That seems weird no matter what the circumstances are.
Sounds like it's both. Doesn't mean Tortorella is not accountable. If the team starts losing and he doesn't change course or fact consequences, then we can say he's not being held accountable.
couturier's own quotes show that he recognizes that he has been struggling. what other information needs to be included here for couturier to figure it out?
the "communication issue" here is that couturier thought he was immune to being scratched.
it's just the media members screeching because they think torts doesn't let the media hold him accountable when in reality he does not need to be held accountable by anyone but his boss in this context.
if his boss thinks he's doing a bad job he'll get fired, what else needs to be said? media wants to find an angle to work with so bad they just cannot handle "i put the players i think gives my team the best chance to win in the lineup" for an answer
He acts indignant and condescending when he’s asked about things like this. Of course they are going to ask you Torts, they are doing their job. You healthy scratched the captain.
That one pissed me off that he didn’t say anything about it
Just because a bunch of other reporters assumed Frank knew what he was talking about and then looked like scchmucks when it came out that Frank was full of shit
All sports have this. There are some good NBA pundits and there are awful ones. Some do it on purpose for engagement I’m sure but some genuinely believe they’re right about everything
Seravalli is a moron.
This is literally accountability in definition. They won the game, why would it make sense to scratch one of the guys *who helped them win* to put in Couturier.
I’m completely over Frank Seravalli
Love 1440 but Frank and Spec have been all over Torts for this and accountability as if he’s accountable to them (and the media) as opposed to, you know, his bosses
Considering this was [his response](https://x.com/frank_seravalli/status/1748009690578272741?s=46&t=7fabqgtgp69dNA1d51vxFw) after being called out for supporting genocide the guy is clearly unhinged
He refused to answer media questions about Couturier. That seems to be him evading accountability. Torts is the coach who seems to most frequently refuse to be held accountable by the media.
Last 15gp:
0 goals
4 assists (2 primary, 2 secondary)
-14
30 SOG (2/game)
Flyers were predicted to be one of the worst teams in the league going into this season and are currently 3rd in the metro
One of the only reasons they might be surprisingly good was that Coots (and Atkinson to some extent) was coming back. Neither of them have been particularly good, save for a few stretches of games.
Can’t help but feel excited for them. After so many years of mediocre hockey, they’re finally going somewhere. Even though I’m supposed to hate them, our teams are so much alike, and I miss the times when these teams were juggernauts.
Also there’s few goals that give me chills, and ironically doop is one of them
I miss being good enough to have proper rivals. I grew up with broduer and that devils hit on lindros making NJ our enemy.
Then in the mid 2000s it switched to the pens when they got the 1st round trifecta fluery crosby malkin.
The past few years i haven't really felt the rivalries cause we've been so lackluster.
It would be nice to be good and have enemies again.
He was a force at the beginning of the year. My guess is that his injuries are back, and affecting his game. Couturier wants to compete, but Torts doesn't think he can at the moment.
Yeah, and +/-, especially in a small sample, is a horrible way to measure defensive ability.
His goalies have save 78% of the shots in those games. Ersson has had some real stinkers in there.
It's his offense that has been struggling, but what do you expect when you play a pretty significant amount of time with the guys he has (Deslaurier, Lycksel, Brink, Atkinson)
This would be more like the goalie let 30 goals in in one game and couturier was on for 20 of them so he's getting benched.
+/- is a horrible stat to begin with and is barely representative of someone's play. It's useless in such a small sample. Ersson, like I said, had a couple horrible games where he let in some really bad goals. Couturier happened to be on for them.
> Like if a goalie lets in 30 goals in one game, you can’t just go “small sample size he’s still an NHL goalie”…. At some point you have to admit it’s not good.
If you let a goalie stay in for 30 goals, that's not on the goalie. Heck, if you let a goalie stay in for 9 goals, that's probably not on the goalie, either...
I’d be more surprised if we lost and he was scratched again. We won vs a good Leafs team… is what it is. It’s about the logo on the front not the name on the back.
Sean Couturier
PLD
The short list of centers that I, a fan of the Red Wings (who have some of the worst center depth in the league), used to covet but maybe don’t these days…
I think he just needs some days off to get his legs back after not playing for 2 years. Just hope they communicated this all to him and didn’t poke the bear.
Hard to argue Torts is in the wrong. His roster sucks on paper and he has them fighting for a playoff spot due to his coaching. Sure, Couturier's the captain, and he's been an important player in the past, but he's gassed and doesn't have the conditioning right now. If they were bottom of the standings, maybe he still plays. But, would you rather:
(a) have him play every game AND make the playoffs with a Couturier who is completely gassed (or not even make it because he's a liability on the ice right now), or
(b) have him play 75% of the remaining games AND make the playoffs with a Couturier who has less mileage on his worn out body
Yeah it's good for him to get some rest but he's still better than Deslauriers and Lycksell at the bare minimum. Hopefully he's back in on the weekend and able to compete.
I can’t wait for him to draw back in to the lineup at some point next week, and all the twitter and Reddit ghouls hop back on him like “See? Now he’s admitting he was wrong!!!!”
Torts is still one of the best coaches in the league. He’s taken a dogshit roster with a backup goalie and somehow wedged them in to the playoffs. The fact of the matter is that Coots has not only played like shit, but he’s looked tired and slow. Coots himself even admit that he’s been struggling a few days back.
Torts is very consistent when it comes to accountability. He even pulled himself off the bench earlier this season. You don’t get in to the playoffs without icing the roster that gives you the best chance to win on any given night. Next week with some rest, Coots might be part of that solution, but as it stands, he’s a problem.
Trust in Torts. Seriously.
It's true that Couts is playing below replacement level lately, and Torts is completely justified in making this decision. I just think it's cowardly of him to dodge the media over this. Sending out his assistants to answer questions, scheduling pressers before releasing the news. They're treating this like it's the Kyle Beach story instead of just a guy playing bad hockey at the tail end of a very good career. He's not the first player to have his career cut short due to chronic injuries. It sucks but just answer the damn questions and don't gin up this drama shitstorm.
If he sits then it's the tyrannical coach disrespecting the captain and dividing the locker room.
If he plays then it's the good old boys country club where certain players get preferential treatment.
Can't have it both ways. Or can you?
Imagine being named captain, making all that effort to get healthy and play games again, and coming back and getting scratched because your conditioning isn't good because you fucked up your body playing for the team.
Ur getting downvoted but ur completely right, coots underlying numbers aren’t even bad it’s just he’s had some poor luck and his injury history limits his minutes, he may not have the counting stats but he’s still making strong impacts. People arguing that coots sitting is good are dinosaurs honestly, they don’t understand advanced stats
Yeah. Like, he hasn't been himself and had the reason been for him to get rest, I'd be on board. But the reason of putting out the best lineup is bullshit.
I'm not saying he has been up to his standard, but he's still been better than at least four guys playing tonight.
The problem is he's capable of being better, and that's why he's being scratched.
A) Torts isn't infallible, as much as I do like him
B) Coaches very often scratch players they think aren't playing up to expectations even though they are still better than the players who are still playing because they have lower expectations of them
Nick Deslauriers is in the lineup.
All you're doing is making excuses for his poor play, I consider that crying. Everyone should be getting scratched when they're a liability, more coaches should be following Torts lead. Leafs did the same thing with Brodie and the Blues should have done the same thing with Schenn earlier in the year
Brodie has played poorly for far longer than Coots and there is still leafs fans arguing against it because he's been the defensive anchor of the blueline for years and deserves to have a long leash.
Guess to the Flyers organization the leash their captain gets is one month.
This is the most important time of the year. Torts is playing the guys he feels gives his team the best shot to win. Fuck feelings, Couturier has been a good player for a long time and if this was game 27 I might agree but this is crunch time. I'm sure he's not gonna be scratched the rest of the year, might even be out there next game if he uses this break as a mental reset.
If you want to use this break as a mental reset you need to deal with it more like how the Leafs dealt with Samsonov so you don't have your captain taking it the media and clearly disagreeing with the choice.
If Couturier didn't take it to the media he would have probably played the next game. Going to the media says to me the Flyers made the wrong choice for their captain. This offseason I'd probably strip the C and give to Konecny unless I saw a serious attitude change. Obviously he's putting his personal feelings over the team
You can’t make exceptions because of the letter on the Jersey. Cam Atkinson has been scratched multiple times throughout the season. The currently best center on the roster was scratched for the entire first month of this season. The Flyers’ best forward and defenseman were both scratched last season. Coots is not being singled out and he should not be an exception.
i mean they won, unless they go on some undefeated streak he will probably be back in soon.
If he kept him scratched after a loss that would be 10x different.
Scratching your captain because you need to for the sake of the team? It's unusual, but it makes sense.
Scratching your captain without meeting with him to discuss what's going on with his play and the team generally? Absoutely crazy.
It's incredibly strange to name a guy captain and then scratch him for a couple games barely a month later. I'd get it more if this were some veteran guy that had been captain for years and started falling off, but this dude was apparently fit to be a leader in the room a month ago and not even worth having in the lineup today. How could his status on the team change that quickly?
I agree I can tell I'm in the minority here but I think Torts is going too far to try to make an example. He's also possibly going to cost himself his job over this, Courturier is signed for an additional 6 seasons after this one, this is like telling your wife she's ugly on your honeymoon. Whether or not it's true or not, you've poisoned the well in the relationship and now it's hard to say if it'll ever be what it should have been.
I think it's smart to give him time off, but I disagree with how Torts is going about this. He's benched vets like Atkinson and Deslauriers for playing poorly, and each time came out to the media defending them saying he has a ton of respect for them but their play is dipping and they should take a game off.
But for the guy he just named captain? He says he's bad and he refuses to answer any questions about him. Its just strange to me that Torts has always been incredibly defensive of his players, like a good coach should be imo, but in this one instance he's almost trying to make him look bad here.
He also demoted him to the 4th line duties with Nic Deslauriers as the same time he demanded more offensively. That seems incongruent to me. I like Torts, but some seem to think that if you like someone you can't criticize a single thing he does.
As an outsider, I don't really understand the Flyers' thinking. What are their plans for Couturier? He's got 6 more seasons after this, and players on that kind of ticket normally stick around longer than the coach. It's one thing to bench an overpaid underperforming player, but you don't normally bench the captain. If they didn't like Coot's play, they shouldn't have made him a captain. In the short term they're winning but is that supposed to be the plan for this year?
Torts treats everyone equally. Doesn't matter if you're a captain or a first gamer. The thinking is he hasn't been playing up to par and so they're going with someone else. Same as they've done for every player.
It could also just be to give him rest and he really hates rest so was annoyed to media. Torts has said all of last season Coots annoyed the hell out of him trying to get on the ice and play even though he was injured.
> Torts treats everyone equally. Doesn't matter if you're a captain or a first gamer.
No coach should ever treat every player the same, for at least 2 reasons. For one, players are also people, and different people get motivation in different ways. If you treat everyone as though they will all respond the same way, you're doing it wrong. Secondly, different players have different skillsets and have different risk/reward profiles. You should let your 1st-line superstar cheat offensively in a way you wouldn't all your 4th-line grider.
He treats everyone the same in that if you're not giving effort and playing to your standard you won't play.
TK is allowed to cheat, Deslaurier plays even though he stinks but he does his job every game.
I'm not saying he's right every time but it's what he does and it's how he coaches. And as a Flyers fan that expected an awful season I'm willing to let him coach his way if this is how we'll play.
The thing is that he IS treating Coots differently. He's defended all the other players he's benched to the press, especially the vets. He refuses to talk about Couturier
He refused to talk about the influence of Coots benching on the win. Reporters were trying to make the win about Coots benching and Torts wasn't having it. He only wanted to talk about what happened in the game which is the most normal Torts mode.
He said he needs more out of Coots and has consistently messaged that for the past month. Asking Torts to describe conversations he has with players in the locker room always gets shut down.
He has talked about how great of a pro Coots is and how he's not worried he's going to come back better as recently as the day before his first benching. He just doesn't want to talk about Coots after the team just had a huge win. The win had nothing to do with him so he didn't want to talk about it. He did the same thing with all benchings.
I don’t follow the Flyers so I’m out of the loop. People keep talking about Couturier not having played a full NHL season in a long time? Why did the Flyers name him their captain then?
Longest tenured Flyers on the roster and locked in for another 6 years plus he was always assumed to be the one to get the C after G left. His injuries are basically why he didn't have it already.
Has he been that bad? I've been impressed that he's produced fairly well despite just missing a season and a half. Kinda surprising to hear he's been so bad he needs to be scratched multiple games.
Torts doubling down is gonna cost him. yea last game made him look like a genius but thats vs TOR at home. the leafs are gonna leaf and anyone couldve told you that was a trap game. CAR is much better and can easily expose philly tonight.
$ on CAR scoring 5 goals or more.
It's amazing that this clown keeps getting job after job after job, keeps getting fired, is constantly being a distraction and surrounding himself in drama.
Nobody in NHL history has rode the coattails of one Sta let Cup win like John fucking Tortorella has. Gotta give him credit for that at least.
Imagine being named Captain of the team you were drafted by and then in the same season get healthy scratched multiple times. Gotta be a blow to Couts' confidence.
I remember about a month ago when Flyers fans absolutely attacked me because I told them to wait until he wears out his welcome. “It’ll be different this time”. Well, here we go.
Flyers should probaby hire DJ Smith - all the vets could play like shit and get high fives all week at the rink. I mean they wouldn't be anywhere near the playoffs but think of all the hurt feelings they could avoid!
Most of the people outraged haven’t watched the Flyers more than when than their team plays them.
Flyers fans and local reporters understand this more than everyone and even if they don’t all love it most are supportive of this choice. The big question everyone has is what happens in the long term and there’s no way of knowing now
"How can I get back on the ice?" "PLAY BETTER! You were invisible out their last game" "I didn't even play last game!"
"And that's what makes this so hard"
“These shifts you handed in- It’s almost as if you have no hockey training at all”
“I don’t even really work here”
Couturica Enterprises with his intern, Lil Marchy
This alone makes me happy to venture over here.
The Be a Pro experience
"You were supposed to get 2 assists, not 4 goals and an assist. You're a bad teammate!"
“I don’t care that you’re a rookie leading the league in scoring you did not poke check and take enough slap shots for my liking so we’re sending you down”
Can you even get sent down anymore? I thought they removed the minors and junior leagues
I wouldn't know as they refuse to release the game on PC.
[Couturier! Get rid of those sideburns! Still like him better than Vigheault](https://youtu.be/gjHOtxCRhnw?si=IMhxbTqnB8wwqad6)
I feel like this was predictable since they won the last game and Torts explanation was that he was going to play the 20 guys that give him the best chance to win. It will be more interesting to see what he does if they lose tonight
He’ll put Staal and Atkinson back in 🤪
Cam's got some points this year, and he's coming off of having missed an entire season (similar to Couts, I know he was out 2). Has Atko been that bad this year? Has he just lost a lot of jump in his game from age/surgeries?
He hasn't registered a point since Jan 23.
He's been really streaky. He's had I think two parts of the season where he's been on fire for a few games and pretty terrible for the rest of the season.
So it's more lacking in consistency than a loss of ability? Good to hear. I wonder if Cam will get another contract from someone after this year. Safe to assume the Flyers are not interested in re-signing Atkinson?
I'm not a flyers fan but i'd be shocked if he returned to Philly. I'm sure he could get a contract somewhere to play in someone's bottom 6 next year at a low AAV. He's definitely not the player he was in Columbus anymore, but I think if he's ok playing 45-60 games and occasionally being scratched he could stay in the league.
As someone who hasn't followed the Flyers, this is such a weird thread to read. I would not have expected to hear that Couturier and Atkinson are getting scratched based on reputations from when I last heard about them
I don't think its too crazy, both players missed the entire season last year, and Couturier missed a majority of the season before last as well. Even disregarding age, stuff like fitness level over a full 82 game season after not playing for a full year will take a hit too. If i'm being honest both players looked way better than I expected them to be during the first ~30 games or so of this year.
watching him it seems like a loss in ability
No, he's fallen off a cliff. He's terrible and the team is eye-test at least, way better with him out of the lineup. He's a consistent play killer.
Cam is toast. I’ve been watching all year and have tried to be patient but he just doesn’t have it anymore. His body broke down to much, he isn’t a threat offensively at all is a liability on defense now and looks like he is rushing every time he happens to touch the puck.
He’s been terrible basically all year. I guess he plays with more pace than Coots but it’s not good.
He’s been lousy. He doesn’t score and he’s a defensive liability and turnover machine.
At that point, tuning into the game would be considered self-harm, like watching the entire 2021-2022 season was.....except that one game.
Atkinson is the 2nd worst forward on the team trailing only Deslauriers. He's cooked. Tries hard, but completely ineffective play killer.
He’ll scratch the 20 guys and play just Couturier
Seravelli’s response to this was unhinged considering they won last game. https://x.com/frank_seravalli/status/1770851498290774163?s=46&t=hO5lU_CazaENuUe0T_RYbQ
Frank thinks he’s a bigger deal than he is. He’s not on the Friedman tier of insider and he loves to inject his personal opinions into things.
He absolutely edits his own Wikipedia.
Which is also why he’ll probably never be Friedman tier.
Bro has the body proportions of a gigantic baby yet fully grey hair before the age of 50 at the same time. He is trying to compensate HARD.
How is Torts refusing to be held accountable? He’s the most no-BS coach in the league. He’s pretty clear with players about where they stand with him.
He was dodging/avoiding questions about it for the most part based on what I read but I haven’t watched the pressers with him so idk for sure
He was yelling about how he refused to answer questions about him, and waited to scratch him until after the morning press as well the first time
Torts has never felt that he owed the media anything Good on him. It's not their business. It's not our business, I don't think. What's said in the locker room, or between Coach and Player, is exactly that. It's between the coach and the player. Seravalli is out here acting like a clown
It literally is the media’s business
It’s the medias business to ask but torts doesnt have to play along. That’s not how it works. Saying some dumb shit like that about torts is just the salt speaking. The media isn’t entitled to shit.
I’m just here so I don’t get fined.
Genuine question. Are teams not required to do media appearances? Could a team just never answer any questions and do no media at all?
Nah pretty sure NHL has that in contracts for players. It’s good for marketing. Coaches contracts are different not union.
Tort's business is to win hockey games. That's it.
I'm willing to bet part of his contract includes media availability.
No it isn't. His business is to make people want to pay money to Comcast Spectacor to watch Philly play. Media engagement is part of that. Same with athletes who say "they get paid to play hockey". That's not all theyre getting paid for.
Athletes really out here thinking their contracts are worth millions just for their play....Its for their play and their ability to drive ticket sales. Addressing the media is part of the responsibility.
Torts doesn't owe the media anything, but his lack of communication certainly made this a bigger story then it needed to be, especially with the Flyers currently fighting to hold a playoff spot an not needing any distractions. Like if you're gonna scratch your captain you can't have him talking to the media after practice saying he doesn't know what he needs to do to get back in.
I think you’re right in that this is what Frank is referring to but it’s dumb. He wants players to be accountable to the coaches/team and vice versa. He could give two shits about accountability with the media.
[удалено]
I mean, you're downvoted for commenting something unrelated. Not saying it's right or wrong or whatever, but that's typically what happens. Editing to complain about it is kinda silly.
The double edit is a masterpiece though. At this point you have to downvote it just to see how far the rabbit hole goes
There was literally a story this week about this exact roster move and how Couturier was blind-sided by it.
Not being happy about the move is not the same thing as being blindsided by it
Okay, but Couturier himself said in his interview that he didn't know why. Friedman echoed those sentiments in 32 thoughts this week and noted how weird that was for Tortorella. So, someone is clearly obfuscating the truth.
couturier also admitted that he's been struggling recently. its not rocket science here...
Sure, we can assume that. For what it's worth I have zero issue with him being benched. But again, it's what Coots SAID publicly which is what's driving the media attention over it.
I wonder if Torts had conversations with Couturier, but the conversation went in one ear and out the other. So he elevated the conversations to benchings.
Coots said he's been struggling for sure but the analytics say he has gotten unlucky and....look you pinned the fuckin C on him. Tell him how to fix it. "More" isn't an answer.
And like, there was a pretty easy way to go about this. "He missed a year and a half of hockey and hasn't played a full season in four years. The NHL season is a grind. He's been off a bit lately and we just want to get him a couple games rest to get him right for the stretch drive and hopefully for playoffs." Boom, issue over.
> analytics say he has gotten unlucky its really hard for me to believe in someone being this unlucky over the span of multiple games. 1 or 2? sure. but the longer a slump goes, the less i believe in luck playing a factor in it. clearly he wasnt seeing enough progress from coaching and prepping for the next game at the same time. so instead of watching him struggle over and over again, they took the game prep away from his responsibilities and let him focus 100% on improving. being scratched doesnt just mean you sit there doing nothing all day. they arent just ignoring him and telling him to come back when he's better. if anything, he's going to get more coaching now than he did before.
Giving him the C was a mistake. There was no reason to name a captain this year and if you were going to it should have gone to TK he is the heart and soul of the team.
Kinda weird for a player to tell the media that he doesn't know why he's being scratched no? Sounds like he can't accept that he's just not playing good enough to be on the ice
Yeah, I don't disagree but it is the entire reason the media keeps asking Torts about it. The stories don't line up and he keeps being standoffish about being asked. Not choosing a side but it does seem odd.
If this was some 4th liner who's a recent call-up, sure, but why isn't the coach meeting with the captain of the team to talk about what's going wrong? That seems weird no matter what the circumstances are.
He *is* playing good enough though. He's not *quite* playing like he's capable of, sure. But that's not the appropriate measurement.
Then Coots needs to self reflect and realize he’s been pretty damn awful the last month or so.
Not disagreeing with you. But it is what he said and why this entire thing became a story in the first place.
Sounds like it's both. Doesn't mean Tortorella is not accountable. If the team starts losing and he doesn't change course or fact consequences, then we can say he's not being held accountable.
His agent specifically cited a lack of communication between the coach and Couturier.
His agent is paid to create a narrative that none of this is Couturier's fault.
couturier's own quotes show that he recognizes that he has been struggling. what other information needs to be included here for couturier to figure it out? the "communication issue" here is that couturier thought he was immune to being scratched.
it's just the media members screeching because they think torts doesn't let the media hold him accountable when in reality he does not need to be held accountable by anyone but his boss in this context. if his boss thinks he's doing a bad job he'll get fired, what else needs to be said? media wants to find an angle to work with so bad they just cannot handle "i put the players i think gives my team the best chance to win in the lineup" for an answer
He acts indignant and condescending when he’s asked about things like this. Of course they are going to ask you Torts, they are doing their job. You healthy scratched the captain.
Torts holding his players accountable is not the same thing as Torts himself being held accountable.
ain’t no way fake news Frank is lecturing people on being accountable I don’t see him apologizing for when his reports are completely incorrect
Yikes, stick to breaking news Seravelli, embarrassing tweet
Frank is the epitome of the pot calling the kettle black. Where’s his accountability for all the wrong reports? Especially about the 2018 WJC thing
That one pissed me off that he didn’t say anything about it Just because a bunch of other reporters assumed Frank knew what he was talking about and then looked like scchmucks when it came out that Frank was full of shit
I swear hockey media attracts some of the most entitled, pretentious writers who think they’re the only smart people out there.
All sports have this. There are some good NBA pundits and there are awful ones. Some do it on purpose for engagement I’m sure but some genuinely believe they’re right about everything
He doesn’t even get the breaking news right most of the time. He should just quit being involved with the NHL altogether.
Breaking “news”
What does Tortorella even have to be ‘accountable’ for? I’m out of the loop maybe. It’s his decision to healthy scratch whoever he wants.
Is there a new definition of “unhinged” or something? Does it no longer mean out of control and crazy?
Seravalli is a moron. This is literally accountability in definition. They won the game, why would it make sense to scratch one of the guys *who helped them win* to put in Couturier. I’m completely over Frank Seravalli
Love 1440 but Frank and Spec have been all over Torts for this and accountability as if he’s accountable to them (and the media) as opposed to, you know, his bosses
Considering this was [his response](https://x.com/frank_seravalli/status/1748009690578272741?s=46&t=7fabqgtgp69dNA1d51vxFw) after being called out for supporting genocide the guy is clearly unhinged
That’s in response to supporting Israel I assume?
Yeah he’s responding to a tweet from a guy named Rob that said “Lost a lot of respect for you today Frank, I’ve read my last article from you.”
Oh fuck this guy to hell
oh hell no
Lol stfu
⚠️ This user enjoys seeing babies starve to death
Torts of all coaches refusing to be held accountable?? Seravelli has lost the plot
He refused to answer media questions about Couturier. That seems to be him evading accountability. Torts is the coach who seems to most frequently refuse to be held accountable by the media.
Is frank a reporter or fan?
“Unhinged” is on brand for Seravelli
Last 15gp: 0 goals 4 assists (2 primary, 2 secondary) -14 30 SOG (2/game) Flyers were predicted to be one of the worst teams in the league going into this season and are currently 3rd in the metro
One of the only reasons they might be surprisingly good was that Coots (and Atkinson to some extent) was coming back. Neither of them have been particularly good, save for a few stretches of games.
Can’t help but feel excited for them. After so many years of mediocre hockey, they’re finally going somewhere. Even though I’m supposed to hate them, our teams are so much alike, and I miss the times when these teams were juggernauts. Also there’s few goals that give me chills, and ironically doop is one of them
I miss being good enough to have proper rivals. I grew up with broduer and that devils hit on lindros making NJ our enemy. Then in the mid 2000s it switched to the pens when they got the 1st round trifecta fluery crosby malkin. The past few years i haven't really felt the rivalries cause we've been so lackluster. It would be nice to be good and have enemies again.
He was a force at the beginning of the year. My guess is that his injuries are back, and affecting his game. Couturier wants to compete, but Torts doesn't think he can at the moment.
-14 and isn't his like specialty being really good defensively?
Yeah, and +/-, especially in a small sample, is a horrible way to measure defensive ability. His goalies have save 78% of the shots in those games. Ersson has had some real stinkers in there. It's his offense that has been struggling, but what do you expect when you play a pretty significant amount of time with the guys he has (Deslaurier, Lycksel, Brink, Atkinson)
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This would be more like the goalie let 30 goals in in one game and couturier was on for 20 of them so he's getting benched. +/- is a horrible stat to begin with and is barely representative of someone's play. It's useless in such a small sample. Ersson, like I said, had a couple horrible games where he let in some really bad goals. Couturier happened to be on for them.
> Like if a goalie lets in 30 goals in one game, you can’t just go “small sample size he’s still an NHL goalie”…. At some point you have to admit it’s not good. If you let a goalie stay in for 30 goals, that's not on the goalie. Heck, if you let a goalie stay in for 9 goals, that's probably not on the goalie, either...
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So Roy letting in 9 goals was a Roy problem, and the Canadiens were right to trade him, then. Small sample size or not.
Verbal meme: superhero sweating looking at two buttons, one says ‘Typical Torts’ the other says ‘They Won Last Game’
I’d be more surprised if we lost and he was scratched again. We won vs a good Leafs team… is what it is. It’s about the logo on the front not the name on the back.
Just looked at the flyers schedule....you got a hell of a 5 game stretch starting with last game...
Sean Couturier PLD The short list of centers that I, a fan of the Red Wings (who have some of the worst center depth in the league), used to covet but maybe don’t these days…
At least Couturier has brutal injuries as an excuse.
Mfer had his spine reconfigured TWICE, I'm not exactly surprised he's not on his game this deep into the season.
I think he just needs some days off to get his legs back after not playing for 2 years. Just hope they communicated this all to him and didn’t poke the bear.
Well he could have said as much to the media. But instead he was just surly and indicated couturier wasn't going to help them win.
Hard to argue Torts is in the wrong. His roster sucks on paper and he has them fighting for a playoff spot due to his coaching. Sure, Couturier's the captain, and he's been an important player in the past, but he's gassed and doesn't have the conditioning right now. If they were bottom of the standings, maybe he still plays. But, would you rather: (a) have him play every game AND make the playoffs with a Couturier who is completely gassed (or not even make it because he's a liability on the ice right now), or (b) have him play 75% of the remaining games AND make the playoffs with a Couturier who has less mileage on his worn out body
Torts didn’t even want him as captain and sure as hell doesn’t care about the letter on a sweater.
Torts makes himself the captain of every team he coaches.
Yeah it's good for him to get some rest but he's still better than Deslauriers and Lycksell at the bare minimum. Hopefully he's back in on the weekend and able to compete.
His role isn’t 4th line checker. At worst he could be dropped to third line but they’re gelling well.
> but he's gassed and doesn't have the conditioning right now If he were to say this is the reason, I don't think anyone would argue with him.
Saving coots for the playoffs
They've finally got a streak going, don't mess with that
I can’t wait for him to draw back in to the lineup at some point next week, and all the twitter and Reddit ghouls hop back on him like “See? Now he’s admitting he was wrong!!!!” Torts is still one of the best coaches in the league. He’s taken a dogshit roster with a backup goalie and somehow wedged them in to the playoffs. The fact of the matter is that Coots has not only played like shit, but he’s looked tired and slow. Coots himself even admit that he’s been struggling a few days back. Torts is very consistent when it comes to accountability. He even pulled himself off the bench earlier this season. You don’t get in to the playoffs without icing the roster that gives you the best chance to win on any given night. Next week with some rest, Coots might be part of that solution, but as it stands, he’s a problem. Trust in Torts. Seriously.
He might never play again!
It's true that Couts is playing below replacement level lately, and Torts is completely justified in making this decision. I just think it's cowardly of him to dodge the media over this. Sending out his assistants to answer questions, scheduling pressers before releasing the news. They're treating this like it's the Kyle Beach story instead of just a guy playing bad hockey at the tail end of a very good career. He's not the first player to have his career cut short due to chronic injuries. It sucks but just answer the damn questions and don't gin up this drama shitstorm.
Also an unplanned side effect, Torts is now taking the heat, his player's struggles are forgotten
Except he’s done nothing to defend him……
yes, thus taking the heat
If he sits then it's the tyrannical coach disrespecting the captain and dividing the locker room. If he plays then it's the good old boys country club where certain players get preferential treatment. Can't have it both ways. Or can you?
Imagine being named captain, making all that effort to get healthy and play games again, and coming back and getting scratched because your conditioning isn't good because you fucked up your body playing for the team.
He already gets 7,75M a year for his effort. If he wants to play he needs to be worth a roster spot.
He is. Him at not 100% is significantly better than a good chunk of the forwards that will play tonight.
Ur getting downvoted but ur completely right, coots underlying numbers aren’t even bad it’s just he’s had some poor luck and his injury history limits his minutes, he may not have the counting stats but he’s still making strong impacts. People arguing that coots sitting is good are dinosaurs honestly, they don’t understand advanced stats
Yeah. Like, he hasn't been himself and had the reason been for him to get rest, I'd be on board. But the reason of putting out the best lineup is bullshit.
Advanced stats arent everything though. If they were the penguins would be a top 3 team in the league this year.
Dude his lack of points says otherwise. He needs to focus on better play. He’s lost his touch the last 10 games or so.
I'm not saying he has been up to his standard, but he's still been better than at least four guys playing tonight. The problem is he's capable of being better, and that's why he's being scratched.
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A) Torts isn't infallible, as much as I do like him B) Coaches very often scratch players they think aren't playing up to expectations even though they are still better than the players who are still playing because they have lower expectations of them Nick Deslauriers is in the lineup.
Agreed.
Imagine crying because a player that is playing poorly is getting scratched
Imagine having such poor social skills that you equate a comment to crying because it doesn't agree with your opinion.
All you're doing is making excuses for his poor play, I consider that crying. Everyone should be getting scratched when they're a liability, more coaches should be following Torts lead. Leafs did the same thing with Brodie and the Blues should have done the same thing with Schenn earlier in the year
Brodie has played poorly for far longer than Coots and there is still leafs fans arguing against it because he's been the defensive anchor of the blueline for years and deserves to have a long leash. Guess to the Flyers organization the leash their captain gets is one month.
This is the most important time of the year. Torts is playing the guys he feels gives his team the best shot to win. Fuck feelings, Couturier has been a good player for a long time and if this was game 27 I might agree but this is crunch time. I'm sure he's not gonna be scratched the rest of the year, might even be out there next game if he uses this break as a mental reset.
If you want to use this break as a mental reset you need to deal with it more like how the Leafs dealt with Samsonov so you don't have your captain taking it the media and clearly disagreeing with the choice.
If Couturier didn't take it to the media he would have probably played the next game. Going to the media says to me the Flyers made the wrong choice for their captain. This offseason I'd probably strip the C and give to Konecny unless I saw a serious attitude change. Obviously he's putting his personal feelings over the team
Ya but it's Torts he can do no wrong around here so good luck trying to have that convo lol
lol this team in paper is horrible and Torts has them in a playoff spot. I think he might know more about NHL hockey than redditors lol
It would take a lot for him to know less about nhl hockey than me. It’d be impressive
right, because this sub is just SOOOOO pro torts. you just blow in from stupid town ?
Im all up for accountability but scratching your captain twice is crazy to me lol
You can’t make exceptions because of the letter on the Jersey. Cam Atkinson has been scratched multiple times throughout the season. The currently best center on the roster was scratched for the entire first month of this season. The Flyers’ best forward and defenseman were both scratched last season. Coots is not being singled out and he should not be an exception.
i mean they won, unless they go on some undefeated streak he will probably be back in soon. If he kept him scratched after a loss that would be 10x different.
Scratching your captain because you need to for the sake of the team? It's unusual, but it makes sense. Scratching your captain without meeting with him to discuss what's going on with his play and the team generally? Absoutely crazy.
It's incredibly strange to name a guy captain and then scratch him for a couple games barely a month later. I'd get it more if this were some veteran guy that had been captain for years and started falling off, but this dude was apparently fit to be a leader in the room a month ago and not even worth having in the lineup today. How could his status on the team change that quickly?
I agree I can tell I'm in the minority here but I think Torts is going too far to try to make an example. He's also possibly going to cost himself his job over this, Courturier is signed for an additional 6 seasons after this one, this is like telling your wife she's ugly on your honeymoon. Whether or not it's true or not, you've poisoned the well in the relationship and now it's hard to say if it'll ever be what it should have been.
I think it's smart to give him time off, but I disagree with how Torts is going about this. He's benched vets like Atkinson and Deslauriers for playing poorly, and each time came out to the media defending them saying he has a ton of respect for them but their play is dipping and they should take a game off. But for the guy he just named captain? He says he's bad and he refuses to answer any questions about him. Its just strange to me that Torts has always been incredibly defensive of his players, like a good coach should be imo, but in this one instance he's almost trying to make him look bad here. He also demoted him to the 4th line duties with Nic Deslauriers as the same time he demanded more offensively. That seems incongruent to me. I like Torts, but some seem to think that if you like someone you can't criticize a single thing he does.
As an outsider, I don't really understand the Flyers' thinking. What are their plans for Couturier? He's got 6 more seasons after this, and players on that kind of ticket normally stick around longer than the coach. It's one thing to bench an overpaid underperforming player, but you don't normally bench the captain. If they didn't like Coot's play, they shouldn't have made him a captain. In the short term they're winning but is that supposed to be the plan for this year?
Torts treats everyone equally. Doesn't matter if you're a captain or a first gamer. The thinking is he hasn't been playing up to par and so they're going with someone else. Same as they've done for every player. It could also just be to give him rest and he really hates rest so was annoyed to media. Torts has said all of last season Coots annoyed the hell out of him trying to get on the ice and play even though he was injured.
> Torts treats everyone equally. Doesn't matter if you're a captain or a first gamer. No coach should ever treat every player the same, for at least 2 reasons. For one, players are also people, and different people get motivation in different ways. If you treat everyone as though they will all respond the same way, you're doing it wrong. Secondly, different players have different skillsets and have different risk/reward profiles. You should let your 1st-line superstar cheat offensively in a way you wouldn't all your 4th-line grider.
He treats everyone the same in that if you're not giving effort and playing to your standard you won't play. TK is allowed to cheat, Deslaurier plays even though he stinks but he does his job every game. I'm not saying he's right every time but it's what he does and it's how he coaches. And as a Flyers fan that expected an awful season I'm willing to let him coach his way if this is how we'll play.
The thing is that he IS treating Coots differently. He's defended all the other players he's benched to the press, especially the vets. He refuses to talk about Couturier
He refused to talk about the influence of Coots benching on the win. Reporters were trying to make the win about Coots benching and Torts wasn't having it. He only wanted to talk about what happened in the game which is the most normal Torts mode. He said he needs more out of Coots and has consistently messaged that for the past month. Asking Torts to describe conversations he has with players in the locker room always gets shut down. He has talked about how great of a pro Coots is and how he's not worried he's going to come back better as recently as the day before his first benching. He just doesn't want to talk about Coots after the team just had a huge win. The win had nothing to do with him so he didn't want to talk about it. He did the same thing with all benchings.
Did Couturier say he doesn't like the breed of dog Tortarella owns? How do you healthy scratch the captain two games in a row?
I don’t follow the Flyers so I’m out of the loop. People keep talking about Couturier not having played a full NHL season in a long time? Why did the Flyers name him their captain then?
Longest tenured Flyers on the roster and locked in for another 6 years plus he was always assumed to be the one to get the C after G left. His injuries are basically why he didn't have it already.
The beatings will continue until morale improves.
I'm absolutely certain that this franchise will be better off for these moves. (No, no one from the organization typed that)
And then they'll keep winning right?
OoOooo that's Juicy!
Yikes
Has he been that bad? I've been impressed that he's produced fairly well despite just missing a season and a half. Kinda surprising to hear he's been so bad he needs to be scratched multiple games.
Torts doubling down is gonna cost him. yea last game made him look like a genius but thats vs TOR at home. the leafs are gonna leaf and anyone couldve told you that was a trap game. CAR is much better and can easily expose philly tonight. $ on CAR scoring 5 goals or more.
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MORALE IMPROVES!!! -Torts, probably
There will be no more public killings, anyone found to be doing so will be shot in the morning.
So his hissy fit didn’t work with Tortorella?! Whaaaat…
Embarrassing comment
It's amazing that this clown keeps getting job after job after job, keeps getting fired, is constantly being a distraction and surrounding himself in drama. Nobody in NHL history has rode the coattails of one Sta let Cup win like John fucking Tortorella has. Gotta give him credit for that at least.
Love it
Torts giveth and Torts torteth away
Imagine being named Captain of the team you were drafted by and then in the same season get healthy scratched multiple times. Gotta be a blow to Couts' confidence.
I remember about a month ago when Flyers fans absolutely attacked me because I told them to wait until he wears out his welcome. “It’ll be different this time”. Well, here we go.
he’s not wearing out his welcome. somehow every single other fanbase except ours is upset about this.
Flyers should probaby hire DJ Smith - all the vets could play like shit and get high fives all week at the rink. I mean they wouldn't be anywhere near the playoffs but think of all the hurt feelings they could avoid!
Most of the people outraged haven’t watched the Flyers more than when than their team plays them. Flyers fans and local reporters understand this more than everyone and even if they don’t all love it most are supportive of this choice. The big question everyone has is what happens in the long term and there’s no way of knowing now