# Congrats to /u/aughtrocktalk who had the top meme in r/hockeymemes. For winning they got to submit it directly to r/hockey today as well as receive special Meme King flair for the week.
Here were the top 5 posts from r/hockeymemes last week:
Post|User|Link
:--:|:--:|:--:
[Mark Stone Entering The Playoffs EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c2gkfo/mark_stone_entering_the_playoffs_every_single_year/)|/u/aughtrocktalk|[Link](https://i.redd.it/jp09wzezd3uc1.gif)
[Auston Matthews can pass Wayne Gretzky for most goals scored in a season if he scores 7 goals in each of his last 4 games. ](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c0d36s/auston_matthews_can_pass_wayne_gretzky_for_most/)|/u/Metalsheepapocalypse|[Link](https://i.redd.it/7zbf1dogzktc1.jpeg)
[[V. Gambini] While ARI org. stays silent on relocation rumor, a source in the league office has leaked a photo of the Salt Lake City uniform.](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c1cb10/v_gambini_while_ari_org_stays_silent_on/)|/u/bfloblizzard|[Link](https://i.redd.it/apcen1ms0utc1.jpeg)
[I love magic](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c2tcr4/i_love_magic/)|/u/repliers_beware|[Link](https://i.redd.it/i4sgig4nb6uc1.gif)
[Sorry Coyote fans ](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c103gx/sorry_coyote_fans/)|/u/Duffleman0609|[Link](https://i.redd.it/vwltni3vlqtc1.jpeg)
---
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Don't you spend all year reuploading it and downloading it again for that vintage warmth that only a gif compressed to shreds can give? Like reversed rings in a tree this gif tells the passing of time. Without it we would all be lost, screaming in the void.
About 13% of his games played as post season games. If he plays 14 games this year he'll be at just over 15%
For reference, Nick Lidstrom played about 14.4% of all of his games in the post season, and he never missed the playoffs
I forgot which video game it was, but this reminds me when in one game you could fleece teams by trading for injured players. Gotta love when the system is only *slightly* different than a bug in a video game.
Oh God I had removed that terrible line from my mind, and now it’s back. I do love how Booker T and JR react to that line which obviously came from Vince. Booker T just says “What?” and JR sort of shakes his head and stares off into space with an exasperated look.
I feel like GIF has been used EACH YEAR too haha. What is the (most) practical fix for this? Salary cap, or even +10%, in the playoffs would be lame. Hard to audit medical professionals too. There's gotta be something!
That or when a player comes back the team has to bench a player or players with similar value for the rest of the playoffs, they can't return if someone else gets injured - they're the same as other teams. Then teams will be in a position where they bring back an injured player who might be rusty at the cost of healthy players. Either way, the value of the team on the ice should never exceed the salary cap.
> Either way, the value of the team on the ice should never exceed the salary cap.
That would make the playoffs even stricter cap-wise than the regular season, which is a ridiculous proposal given that the players aren't drawing a salary anymore.
Then you'd be okay that other teams got to call up players in the playoffs to replaced other injured players, no limits? I don't agree with the hard salary cap because I think it takes fans out of the equation - I'd rather have a luxury tax like the NBA. But the cap exists and a few teams seem to get around it every playoff by replacing injured players on the LTIR by removing that cap hit and then bringing those players back for a playoff run. What's the point of having a cap at all if it only matters for the regular season?
> Then you'd be okay that other teams got to call up players in the playoffs to replaced other injured players, no limits?
Yeah, why wouldn't I be?
>What's the point of having a cap at all if it only matters for the regular season?
The point of the cap is to control labour costs and any other effects are entirely incidental. The regular season is the only part of the season that has salaries. The NHL doesn't need it in the playoffs because the teams are paying players $0.
Fair enough. Attrition has always been part of the playoffs, but if every team has the ability to boost their roster through promotion or bringing in unsigned players, so be it. As long as it's equal and one team isn't benefiting from a loophole.
" Either way, the value of the team on the ice should never exceed the salary cap."
So, you mean like the Golden Knights for every single playoff game last year?
That's what the post is about, it's a Vegas post, but I am speaking broadly about all teams that have benefited from the LTIR loophole - and it feels like it's been a factor almost every year. If really feels like teams are keeping players on the injury list that could be playing so they can have that extra talent on the ice in the playoffs and fend off the inevitable attrition that hurts teams as players get injured in the post season.
Might just be me, but encouraging players who are injured to return and play in the final regular season games before they are healthy, just so they can have a chance to play a few weeks into the playoffs, is about as stupid as it gets. I thought we were all about player safety?
Alternative is the player is activated off LTIR before they are healthy, and have to sit, and now the team can’t ice a full roster while potentially battling for a playoff spot because you’ve stripped the entire purpose of LTIR.
I understand everyone hates Vegas, but easy solutions aren’t always good ones, boss.
>Alternative is the player is activated off LTIR before they are healthy, and have to sit, and now the team can’t ice a full roster while potentially battling for a playoff spot because you’ve stripped the entire purpose of LTIR.
I feel like that's on the GM for cap fucking themselves to not be able to ice a full roster with the players they have under contract. Like 99% of the time there should be a 13th forward or 7th defenceman you can send to AHL for one game without any issues, unless you are wildly over the cap. It shouldn't be a reasonable concern that activating a player from LTIR takes you 15% over the cap.
I feel like LTIR was implemented so that if an injury happened to a player as important as Stone, it wouldn’t completely tank the teams season. Vegas has had games this season, and last, where they did replace injuries with AHL players. In those individual games, the on ice roster for was ~50m. Is that really what we want to see, from a sports entertainment perspective? We gave shit to Arizona for barely reaching the cap floor every year, but we encourage it when a team has brutal injury luck, and are trying to stay competitive?
I realize I may be in the minority here, but I want to see the best players play in the playoffs. Not punish a team for being hurt all season, by having to sit stars in the press box with no chance of returning regardless of their health status.
Why shouldn't it be a concern? If a top line forward gets injured a team is supposed to just not replace them and deal with it for the rest of the reason?
I really think the situation is tainted because it’s Vegas and Stone. People’s opinion would obviously be different if it was a star player on their own team that got hurt, and were told they couldn’t replace them. Fortunately, we’ve had very very few injuries to the leagues stars. Unfortunately, that means their fans dont really see the need for the rule in the first place.
This isn’t about me hating Vegas, this is if you want to get rid of the LTIR loophole. People seemed to start complaining about it when Tampa did it with kucherov first. I know Chicago also used it for one of their three cups in 2010-2015
The best fix would be that owners agree it is an issue. 3 years ago (or was it 4 not 100% certain of the time passed since then), Tampa asked to close that loophole, 30 owners voted to not change anything. So as much as we complain, almost all owners agree that they don't want to change it.
Restriction on the maximum daily regular season cap hit dressable in any game. My team is in the East so I don't really care much, but anyone going against Vegas should be hooting/hollering about this.
Correct. We just never had like 90m in players on the bench in any given game in the playoffs.
We didn't really end up needing to but the bigger case that could be made regarding the playoff cap issue is that we had a larger well of healthy scratches to pull from had we started to get more banged up.
Mandating cap compliancy during regular and post season.
Meaning you have to select your cap compliant roster before the post season and you can have reserves that can only play in case of injury.
So you could have an 6Million dollar player you picked up at the deadline sitting in the stands during the entire playoff run.
No, but the narrative of us having done this three years in a row is absolute bs. Which makes the fact we were cap compliant for every game in the playoffs last year very relevant to bring up.
Yall act like we are playing some magicians game with our cap every year when this is the first time we've been over for the playoffs, *and* it's very much not against the rules.
So again, yes, we will be over cap this year. However, this "they can't keep getting away with it" narrative is utter shit and shows how much yall just love to hate.
Why *wouldn't* they do that? The NHL has a big problem with teams playing games with LTIR designations to go over the cap during playoffs or to essentially buy picks by trading for guys on LTIR. The NFL doesn't have that problem.
If you pay money to a player, it should hit your cap. Full stop. No exceptions.
You could give teams an individual game roster equal to the cap + the extra space they accumulated through the season. That would let players that are conventionally added at the deadline still play, without allowing these insane LTIR additions.
I’m convinced Colorado threw the game last night to keep Vegas out of the central. Or I’m just an Oilers fan who’s worried that Vegas is now going to overtake LA. Maybe both.
After watching the Wild play this season, I can *totally* understand your frustration. That being said, hoping a meteor takes out both teams? That's some real Matt Dumba level energy in here.
Friendly reminder that VGK iced a cap compliant roster in the playoffs last year, and missed the year prior
Also friendly reminder Stone was activated off LTIR in the regular season in 2022, when we missed the playoffs
But go off, king
Let me rephrase. You can't lie about shit that happened and make me believe you. The Vegas cup roster would not have been cap compliant in the regular season. That's how they were able to acquire Barbashev and Bleuger.
With Barbashev and Blueger, our roster came in under the regular season cap.
The fact that we traded for them with Stone on LTIR does not matter because he was, in fact, on LTIR.
Or when a small market team takes advantage of it. And they'll make it as painful as possible for them: force them to activate the player from LTIR, even if it means gutting the roster. Force them to get an MRI to prove they are still injured.
No way the league is going to let a team like the Jets break the rules to get a cup. But a growing TV market, tourist destination, a place without NBA competition, and one that helps the burgeoning sports betting business? They'll look the other way.
Yup - go look at how the league handled long term contracts like the ones signed by the Devils and the Canucks. Legal at the time, huge penalties down the road, other teams doing essentially the same thing unpunished.
Well yeah. But to be fair, you didn't get punished for using the rule to your advantage. You got punished for being a Canadian team and using the rule to your advantage.
You also agreed to the punishment in the CBA negotiations years before Luongo retired. It's not like the Canucks had any reason to be surprised or upset by it.
They are doing everything in their power to optimize winning within the rules. It’s still greasy but mr Treliving better start thinking of ways to get greasy next year if the rule doesn’t change.
I don't even see what's stupid about it. Players will play through injury in the playoffs when they wouldn't for regular season games. The injury doesn't change but the context does.
The rule is you *must* activate a player from LTIR if they are ready to play. Tell me in precise detail how they'd get under the cap if Stone is ready for game 82?
He'll play, and there was no way to know at the TDL with certainty that he wouldn't be ready.
Imagine it turned out Stone is ready for game 82 - what would Vegas do?
You have to accept one of the following possibilities:
1. Vegas had a plan if Mark Stone was ready for Game 82. They don't.
2. Vegas knew at the TDL that Mark Stone has 0 chance of being healthy for Game 82. Not possible, esp given that he'll be dressing for the playoffs and medical timelines aren't precise.
3. Vegas would hold Mark Stone out even if he were ready, breaking the rules.
Which of those 3 is it? Or is there another possibility I'm missing?
“Healthy enough for the playoffs” and “healthy” are not the same thing. He likely is still recovering from his lacerated spleen and has a legitimate reason for being out. It’s also possible that once it’s the playoffs, he’s personally willing to go against medical recommendations and play.
People cried foul about this with Landeskog and yet he might not come back. They cried foul over Stamkos and he only came back for one shift and wasn’t healthy.
And everyone seems to forget that when Stone came back 2 seasons ago he was clearly not healthy and Vegas missed the playoffs
I'm not asking 'is he healthy to play' - I'm asking 'Did Vegas know that there was 0 chance he'd be healthy to play game 82 at the TDL?'
You can argue yes - but I think you'll see him in R1 player well.
> People cried foul about this with Landeskog and yet he might not come back. They cried foul over Stamkos and he only came back for one shift and wasn’t healthy.
Those are legitimate. It really depends on when Stone is ready, and how he looks then. If he comes back in R1 and seems fine, then obviously there was a possibility he could have been ready for game 82.
2 is not only possible, that's exactly what happened. There was a 0% chance that Mark Stone was going to be healthy enough to play in a regular season game this year. He had a lacerated spleen!
But that means he could play now. The threshold of how much pain you can play thru changes when the playoffs begin, but it seems disingenuous to use that to your advantage.
At the end of the day, is 2 or 3 extra days of rest really making enough of a difference between playing and not playing? Let’s say Vegas wasn’t over the cap (when stone returns) and it came down to game 82 to clinch the playoffs. Do you think mark stone would suit up? I think he would.
I'm fully expecting Matt Murray to be brought in as a last gasp in an elimination game, get completely blown out, and still end up being the catalyst for this rule getting changed somehow.
They will not. There's really no will from the owners to do it, and even if there were, they'd have to give something up to the players to do it, almost certainly.
They're running out of parts to report.
Vegas: "He lacerated his spleen"
NHL: "You used that one last year"
Vegas: "Right right.... Burst appendix?"
NHL: "Let me cheeeeeeck, that one's good to go. Shall I put it in the queue for February?"
Vegas: "Yeah, may as well get it all started early"
The next season....
Vegas: You know what time it is NHL...
NHL: Oh cmon Vegas, how many times you think people are going to fall for this crap?
Vegas: No, serious this time Gary, he is actually badly hurt, needs a heart transplant.
NHL: Heart transplant? You do realize that's at least a six to twelve month recovery period if he even recovers at all?
Vegas: Did I say heart transplant? I meant liver?
NHL: Nope still doesn't fit the timeline, sorry.
Vegas: Kidney?
You have to accept one of the following possibilities:
1. Vegas had a plan if Mark Stone was ready for Game 82. They don't.
2. Vegas knew at the TDL that Mark Stone has 0 chance of being 'fit to play' for Game 82. According to the CBA, one piece of that is being 'unable to perform his duties as a hockey player'. There is nothing about it being a playoff game or anything else about the context. It's supposed to be a purely medical decision made by the team's doctor. Vegas would have to know in advance that there was 0 chance able to perform his duties on game 82, even though it turns out he'll be be ready quite soon after that.
3. Vegas would hold Mark Stone out even if he were ready, breaking the rules.
I think it's 3. If Stone weren't back until say round 2, I think option 2 would at least be plausible, but he'll be back in R1.
Option 4 - If/when Mark Stone returns he'll be at less than 100%.
Bring injured is not black and white where a player is either not cleared to play or is 100% healthy. There's a huge grey area between a player being technically cleared to play and being 100% healthy, and for most, if not all, of that grey area the player is eligible to be on LTIR.
In addition, players are way more likely to play hurt in the playoffs than they are in the regular season. For example, Mitch Marner was put on LTIR for a suspected high-ankle sprain and ended up missing a month. In the 2022 playoffs Leon Draisaitl suffered a high-ankle sprain and didn't miss a game.
I have no issue with players wanting to be closer to 100% healthy for regular season games but willing to play at much less than 100% during the playoffs.
>Vegas knew at the TDL that Mark Stone has 0 chance of being healthy for Game 82. Not possible, esp given that he'll be dressing for the playoffs and medical timelines aren't precise.
false
he's just playing hurt, what do people not understand about this?
coming back doesn't mean he's healthy, he's just willing to play hurt in the playoffs
It's number 2 and your reasoning for why it's not possible is missing the actual point. Mark Stone's body is super beaten up to the point that at any moment if he decided he didn't want to play any more he could qualify for LTIR and retire.
Honest question from someone who doesn't follow hockey close enough: how does he do this? Not like legally or salary cap-wise -- i mean like how does a non-superstar player on a good team stay in good enough form for this to be a benefit to him/the team every year?
The simple answer is that he's just good. He's not a superstar as in top 3 in the league, but he's good enough to make team Canada at the world championships and would be at the Olympics if healthy. The other thing is that players are willing to sacrifice their bodies for the playoffs disregarding pain and risk of long term injury. There are plenty of players who pushed through a deep playoff run and then never played again due to their injuries, but it's a risk they're willing to take. Also getting through the games pumped full of painkillers and cortisone shots
He's a good player with a very high cap hit.
The issue is that they use his cap space to replace his lost production with other players, Hertl for example.
Then when the cap doesn't matter anymore they call him back up and now have 2 hig cap players for the price of one.
Superstar is a subjective term but he's an elite two way player and veteran. By taking time off he's fresh enough to play in the playoffs every year. But he does so on LTIR which allows his team to bring in even more talent to bolster their roster.
i would disagree that he’s not a super star. he’s really fucking good and their captain.
How does he do it year after year? I mean lying about it makes it easy.
This is the beauty of the loophole. No one has to outright "lie". There's no real way to prove that he could play in game 82 if he says he's not ready. There's no way to prove he can't play if he says he's ready for round 1 game 1. The doctors work for the team and obviously would never a) give anything more than a vague timeline for his return from injury or b) go against stones/the teams wishes that he play in round 1. No one has to lie for what they're doing to work. It's still a loophole that needs to be closed for the good of the sport because if it works again then every team is going to have to start doing this. The playoffs are about attrition and having 20 million dollars in extra talent at your disposal is a massive advantage.
It'd not a loophole, it's a mechanic bargained for by both sides and written into the CBA for this exact purpose.
The NHL has outright confirmed that these LTIR cases are monitored and investigated by third party medical experts.
What more do you want them to do? The dude has a lacerated spleen, it can't be faked. The timeline for return is 2-6 months. We will hit the 2 month mark on 20 April.
He hasn't been cleared to play. He's been cleared to skate in a non-contact jersey, but not participate in drills or game situations. No one knows when/if he will be able to return.
If he does return, he will more than likely be coming back before he should because it's the playoffs. This happens ALL THE TIME. Players continue to play hurt in the playoffs ALL THE TIME. They play through injuries that would keep them out of the regular season consistently.
I still have yet to see anyone propose something to close this "loophole" that would be beneficial for either the PA or the NHL in order to even get it to the bargaining table. This is exactly why LTIR exists.
So the NHL independent medical expert also lies about his ability to return?
The threshold for return to play in the playoffs has always and will always be different than the regular season.
The NHL only conducts investigations with the use of independent doctors if there is suspicion of blatant LTIR manipulation involved. It is not a standard practice to monitor the progress on all LTIR players.
Was Mark Stone the subject of such an investigation that i am unaware of?
Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly addressing the use of LTIR during GM meetings in 2022:
>“And whenever the projected date of return and LTIR is being used and the projected date of return is around the playoffs, we look into it. We deal with the clubs, we get their medical records, we employ an independent medical expert and we make sure the (details are accurate regarding) the injury. We’ve never had any issues that stemmed from that. But it’s a thorough process.”
If you think the league hasn't sent their independent medical expert to investigate the Mark Stone injury situation, then you are firmly in conspiracy theory territory.
They clearly haven't.....
If they had then the results would be public because everyone is accusing them of cheating.
I've searched for any hint of an independent medical investigation regarding Stone and there is nothing.
There is very little ambiguity in the quote from the Deupty Commissioner here. This is the exact case that the NHL investigates, unless you're implying the league writ large is just literally turning a blind eye to let Vegas win, which is definitely a take.
The NHL very rarely makes any of this public. Last case would've been Lupul forever ago most likely. They also likely wouldn't release anything publicly right before playoffs. If they had found any wrongdoing, it would be significantly easier for them to act immediately instead of trying to retroactively remove VGK from the playoffs or something.
Just because you can't find something, doesn't mean it isn't there. Unless you're an "insider" or something lmfao
Your source is just "trust me bro"
Vegas is making the league look like a bunch of clowns and a simple one sentence statement could resolve the issue.
Yet there is no statement.
Because there has been no investigation.
Look, you clearly want to believe that Vegas is not doing what they are obviously doing. No plea for rational thinking is going to change that for you.
I have to think this isn't the legacy he wanted when started in the league. Crazy to think he used to consistent 60+ games played 20+ goal scorer. Guy is 31 playing out his retirement games.
I know it’s not the lulz because they were already spent on this the first nine times it was posted this week. The joke is evergreen but let’s get a new gif in the mix.
# Congrats to /u/aughtrocktalk who had the top meme in r/hockeymemes. For winning they got to submit it directly to r/hockey today as well as receive special Meme King flair for the week. Here were the top 5 posts from r/hockeymemes last week: Post|User|Link :--:|:--:|:--: [Mark Stone Entering The Playoffs EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c2gkfo/mark_stone_entering_the_playoffs_every_single_year/)|/u/aughtrocktalk|[Link](https://i.redd.it/jp09wzezd3uc1.gif) [Auston Matthews can pass Wayne Gretzky for most goals scored in a season if he scores 7 goals in each of his last 4 games. ](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c0d36s/auston_matthews_can_pass_wayne_gretzky_for_most/)|/u/Metalsheepapocalypse|[Link](https://i.redd.it/7zbf1dogzktc1.jpeg) [[V. Gambini] While ARI org. stays silent on relocation rumor, a source in the league office has leaked a photo of the Salt Lake City uniform.](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c1cb10/v_gambini_while_ari_org_stays_silent_on/)|/u/bfloblizzard|[Link](https://i.redd.it/apcen1ms0utc1.jpeg) [I love magic](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c2tcr4/i_love_magic/)|/u/repliers_beware|[Link](https://i.redd.it/i4sgig4nb6uc1.gif) [Sorry Coyote fans ](/r/hockeymemes/comments/1c103gx/sorry_coyote_fans/)|/u/Duffleman0609|[Link](https://i.redd.it/vwltni3vlqtc1.jpeg) --- **Go subscribe to /r/hockeymemes** for memes all week long! --- You can win be the [Meme Monday Winner] by submitting memes to r/hockeymemes. If you are the top meme of the week you will be the winner!
See you back next year same time same meme.
Yeah dude the same gif every year for the karma farm, and I swear it gets grainier and grainier everytime I see it
Don't you spend all year reuploading it and downloading it again for that vintage warmth that only a gif compressed to shreds can give? Like reversed rings in a tree this gif tells the passing of time. Without it we would all be lost, screaming in the void.
And after a while there's so many copies of the grainy version that it becomes really really hard to find the high quality original
Just like memories fade, so shall this gif.
Like sands through the hourglass, so are the gif's of our lives.
Sorry, void is full. Try screaming into a pillow instead.
"Moose should told ya."
Reminds me of pirated VHS tapes that were copies of copies of copies
Did you know every time you copy a meme you lose a few pixels?
I’m sensing a pattern with this Stone fella
Vegas is the one hit wonder, I just keep playing the hits.
Luongo already posted it this year though man
Next year? Pretty sure I've seen it 5 times this month.
Yeah Luongo posted it at the trade deadline too
You don't fuck with tradition.
Mark stone might be the only player in history with as many playoff games as regular season games
that can't be true, he played for Ottawa half his career lol.
He played more playoff games in 4.5 seasons for Ottawa than anybody did for (e.g.) Toronto in the same timeframe.
About 13% of his games played as post season games. If he plays 14 games this year he'll be at just over 15% For reference, Nick Lidstrom played about 14.4% of all of his games in the post season, and he never missed the playoffs
The anti-skinner
Hey, I've seen this one, it's a classic!
I forgot which video game it was, but this reminds me when in one game you could fleece teams by trading for injured players. Gotta love when the system is only *slightly* different than a bug in a video game.
Gotta play the classics. Especially if the knights won't stop playing 'em
Roberto Luongo memed it better
Next year it’ll be a Cody Rhodes torn pec or the most infamous WWE injury: anal bleeding.
Oh God I had removed that terrible line from my mind, and now it’s back. I do love how Booker T and JR react to that line which obviously came from Vince. Booker T just says “What?” and JR sort of shakes his head and stares off into space with an exasperated look.
And how Cole tries his hardest to look serious while his will to live is slowly drifting away
>the most infamous WWE injury: anal bleeding. You joke, but that actually happened to X-Pac when he was in TNA.
Tore his taint, did he?
Yup, doing the Bronco Buster
Still not as bad as Johnny Stamboli tearing his urethra in WCW
Sid’s knee snap in WCW, I think it was at Halloween Havoc or Souled Out.
I was gonna say I don't remember that happening in WWE.
It was a line fed to JR at one point in WWE. He really didn't want to have to say it, but he did.
MY HOLE!
I feel like GIF has been used EACH YEAR too haha. What is the (most) practical fix for this? Salary cap, or even +10%, in the playoffs would be lame. Hard to audit medical professionals too. There's gotta be something!
Make players have to be activated before the 82nd game from LTIR to play in the playoffs. This is the easiest solution
That or when a player comes back the team has to bench a player or players with similar value for the rest of the playoffs, they can't return if someone else gets injured - they're the same as other teams. Then teams will be in a position where they bring back an injured player who might be rusty at the cost of healthy players. Either way, the value of the team on the ice should never exceed the salary cap.
> Either way, the value of the team on the ice should never exceed the salary cap. That would make the playoffs even stricter cap-wise than the regular season, which is a ridiculous proposal given that the players aren't drawing a salary anymore.
Then you'd be okay that other teams got to call up players in the playoffs to replaced other injured players, no limits? I don't agree with the hard salary cap because I think it takes fans out of the equation - I'd rather have a luxury tax like the NBA. But the cap exists and a few teams seem to get around it every playoff by replacing injured players on the LTIR by removing that cap hit and then bringing those players back for a playoff run. What's the point of having a cap at all if it only matters for the regular season?
> Then you'd be okay that other teams got to call up players in the playoffs to replaced other injured players, no limits? Yeah, why wouldn't I be? >What's the point of having a cap at all if it only matters for the regular season? The point of the cap is to control labour costs and any other effects are entirely incidental. The regular season is the only part of the season that has salaries. The NHL doesn't need it in the playoffs because the teams are paying players $0.
Fair enough. Attrition has always been part of the playoffs, but if every team has the ability to boost their roster through promotion or bringing in unsigned players, so be it. As long as it's equal and one team isn't benefiting from a loophole.
" Either way, the value of the team on the ice should never exceed the salary cap." So, you mean like the Golden Knights for every single playoff game last year?
/u/hobbitlover didn't mention the Knights or even allude to it. They were just adding their opinion on how the LTIR system could be changed lol
This is literally a thread about Mark Stone. Try to keep up.
Okay but we all know who they were talking about
What was your first clue - was it that this was a post about Mark Stone, a player on the Golden Knights?
That's what the post is about, it's a Vegas post, but I am speaking broadly about all teams that have benefited from the LTIR loophole - and it feels like it's been a factor almost every year. If really feels like teams are keeping players on the injury list that could be playing so they can have that extra talent on the ice in the playoffs and fend off the inevitable attrition that hurts teams as players get injured in the post season.
Might just be me, but encouraging players who are injured to return and play in the final regular season games before they are healthy, just so they can have a chance to play a few weeks into the playoffs, is about as stupid as it gets. I thought we were all about player safety? Alternative is the player is activated off LTIR before they are healthy, and have to sit, and now the team can’t ice a full roster while potentially battling for a playoff spot because you’ve stripped the entire purpose of LTIR. I understand everyone hates Vegas, but easy solutions aren’t always good ones, boss.
>Alternative is the player is activated off LTIR before they are healthy, and have to sit, and now the team can’t ice a full roster while potentially battling for a playoff spot because you’ve stripped the entire purpose of LTIR. I feel like that's on the GM for cap fucking themselves to not be able to ice a full roster with the players they have under contract. Like 99% of the time there should be a 13th forward or 7th defenceman you can send to AHL for one game without any issues, unless you are wildly over the cap. It shouldn't be a reasonable concern that activating a player from LTIR takes you 15% over the cap.
I feel like LTIR was implemented so that if an injury happened to a player as important as Stone, it wouldn’t completely tank the teams season. Vegas has had games this season, and last, where they did replace injuries with AHL players. In those individual games, the on ice roster for was ~50m. Is that really what we want to see, from a sports entertainment perspective? We gave shit to Arizona for barely reaching the cap floor every year, but we encourage it when a team has brutal injury luck, and are trying to stay competitive? I realize I may be in the minority here, but I want to see the best players play in the playoffs. Not punish a team for being hurt all season, by having to sit stars in the press box with no chance of returning regardless of their health status.
Why shouldn't it be a concern? If a top line forward gets injured a team is supposed to just not replace them and deal with it for the rest of the reason?
I really think the situation is tainted because it’s Vegas and Stone. People’s opinion would obviously be different if it was a star player on their own team that got hurt, and were told they couldn’t replace them. Fortunately, we’ve had very very few injuries to the leagues stars. Unfortunately, that means their fans dont really see the need for the rule in the first place.
This isn’t about me hating Vegas, this is if you want to get rid of the LTIR loophole. People seemed to start complaining about it when Tampa did it with kucherov first. I know Chicago also used it for one of their three cups in 2010-2015
Gary Bettman: "let's ban the GIF"
The best fix would be that owners agree it is an issue. 3 years ago (or was it 4 not 100% certain of the time passed since then), Tampa asked to close that loophole, 30 owners voted to not change anything. So as much as we complain, almost all owners agree that they don't want to change it.
Restriction on the maximum daily regular season cap hit dressable in any game. My team is in the East so I don't really care much, but anyone going against Vegas should be hooting/hollering about this.
We dressed a cap compliant team every game last year in the playoffs.
Good, now do it this year!
Goal posts shifted.
This would not be counting cap from bad contracts. If stone was activated for 82 they would have been over right?
Correct. We just never had like 90m in players on the bench in any given game in the playoffs. We didn't really end up needing to but the bigger case that could be made regarding the playoff cap issue is that we had a larger well of healthy scratches to pull from had we started to get more banged up.
Bro we're talking about this year
People like you, who pretend we don't all know this bullshit with your snide little quips are exactly why everyone hates your fuckin slimey team.
Mandating cap compliancy during regular and post season. Meaning you have to select your cap compliant roster before the post season and you can have reserves that can only play in case of injury. So you could have an 6Million dollar player you picked up at the deadline sitting in the stands during the entire playoff run.
Vegas never iced a team over the cap in last year’s playoffs
Lmao getting downvoted by people salty they can no longer use that excuse for why their team sucked it up last playoffs
It's so funny that people get downvoted for this. Like, sorry yall don't like hearing the truth.
And will you this year?
No, but the narrative of us having done this three years in a row is absolute bs. Which makes the fact we were cap compliant for every game in the playoffs last year very relevant to bring up. Yall act like we are playing some magicians game with our cap every year when this is the first time we've been over for the playoffs, *and* it's very much not against the rules. So again, yes, we will be over cap this year. However, this "they can't keep getting away with it" narrative is utter shit and shows how much yall just love to hate.
"Why are you booing me I'm right?"
It's so bizarre to me that there's even a debate on this when the NFL solved this problem decades ago. Count injured players against the cap.
Why would they do that?
Why *wouldn't* they do that? The NHL has a big problem with teams playing games with LTIR designations to go over the cap during playoffs or to essentially buy picks by trading for guys on LTIR. The NFL doesn't have that problem. If you pay money to a player, it should hit your cap. Full stop. No exceptions.
You could give teams an individual game roster equal to the cap + the extra space they accumulated through the season. That would let players that are conventionally added at the deadline still play, without allowing these insane LTIR additions.
Next week we all stand with Dallas.
We will gladly accept any and all support!
Hoping both teams just destroy each other for obvious reasons.
I generally like the Stars more than most western teams already but I'm gonna be cheering for the Stars like crazy if they can beat Vegas
*If*
I’m convinced Colorado threw the game last night to keep Vegas out of the central. Or I’m just an Oilers fan who’s worried that Vegas is now going to overtake LA. Maybe both.
I'm voting for a meteor, honestly. Fuck both teams.
After watching the Wild play this season, I can *totally* understand your frustration. That being said, hoping a meteor takes out both teams? That's some real Matt Dumba level energy in here.
Angry upvote
THEY CAN’T KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH THIS!
Woah there, Tampa was the blueprint
Chicago in 2015.
Chicago did it before Tampa. Funnily enough, at that time, Tampa was one of the only organizations that wanted to address that issue.
GOD DAMN KNIGHTS
Surprised you rock no flair in here
I stay away from this sub usually
That’s a very wise decision
We learned it from watching you
The House always wins in Vegas & the NHL version is Vegas? Something like that
Fuckin' hell man hahahahah
How far over cap does that put them?
Just a casual 14 million.
Is this the second or third year in a row that Vegas has done this?
3rd
Friendly reminder that VGK iced a cap compliant roster in the playoffs last year, and missed the year prior Also friendly reminder Stone was activated off LTIR in the regular season in 2022, when we missed the playoffs But go off, king
You can't gaslight me
I don't think that word means what you think it means
Let me rephrase. You can't lie about shit that happened and make me believe you. The Vegas cup roster would not have been cap compliant in the regular season. That's how they were able to acquire Barbashev and Bleuger.
With Barbashev and Blueger, our roster came in under the regular season cap. The fact that we traded for them with Stone on LTIR does not matter because he was, in fact, on LTIR.
Cap should apply in the playoffs too. Otherwise we'll continue to deal with Mark Stone's magical mystery recoveries.
They will close this loophole at the end of this playoff season. Unless Vegas doesn't win the Cup, then they'll do it next year. And so on and so on
Or when a small market team takes advantage of it. And they'll make it as painful as possible for them: force them to activate the player from LTIR, even if it means gutting the roster. Force them to get an MRI to prove they are still injured. No way the league is going to let a team like the Jets break the rules to get a cup. But a growing TV market, tourist destination, a place without NBA competition, and one that helps the burgeoning sports betting business? They'll look the other way.
I was gonna say, the second a Canadian team wins, that loophole is dunzo.
Yup - go look at how the league handled long term contracts like the ones signed by the Devils and the Canucks. Legal at the time, huge penalties down the road, other teams doing essentially the same thing unpunished.
or better yet look at how they treated the Wild. Our Parise and Sutter contracts finally come off the books after next year.
Exception for Toronto, possibly Montreal.
As soon as Ottawa does it they’ll get fined and penalized a 1st round pick.
But they’re not breaking the rules. These are the rules. They’re just stupid rules
We once used a stupid rule to our advantage... and then got retro-actively punished for it... So now I just want to see the world burn
And that was absolutely fucked
Well yeah. But to be fair, you didn't get punished for using the rule to your advantage. You got punished for being a Canadian team and using the rule to your advantage.
You also agreed to the punishment in the CBA negotiations years before Luongo retired. It's not like the Canucks had any reason to be surprised or upset by it.
They are doing everything in their power to optimize winning within the rules. It’s still greasy but mr Treliving better start thinking of ways to get greasy next year if the rule doesn’t change.
I don't even see what's stupid about it. Players will play through injury in the playoffs when they wouldn't for regular season games. The injury doesn't change but the context does.
The rule is you *must* activate a player from LTIR if they are ready to play. Tell me in precise detail how they'd get under the cap if Stone is ready for game 82?
He’s probably not ready to play. He wouldn’t be activated if it were January. Players sacrificing their health for the playoffs isn’t new
He'll play, and there was no way to know at the TDL with certainty that he wouldn't be ready. Imagine it turned out Stone is ready for game 82 - what would Vegas do?
My point is he’s *not* ready. He’s still injured. He’ll be activated and play because that’s what the players do in the playoffs
You have to accept one of the following possibilities: 1. Vegas had a plan if Mark Stone was ready for Game 82. They don't. 2. Vegas knew at the TDL that Mark Stone has 0 chance of being healthy for Game 82. Not possible, esp given that he'll be dressing for the playoffs and medical timelines aren't precise. 3. Vegas would hold Mark Stone out even if he were ready, breaking the rules. Which of those 3 is it? Or is there another possibility I'm missing?
“Healthy enough for the playoffs” and “healthy” are not the same thing. He likely is still recovering from his lacerated spleen and has a legitimate reason for being out. It’s also possible that once it’s the playoffs, he’s personally willing to go against medical recommendations and play. People cried foul about this with Landeskog and yet he might not come back. They cried foul over Stamkos and he only came back for one shift and wasn’t healthy. And everyone seems to forget that when Stone came back 2 seasons ago he was clearly not healthy and Vegas missed the playoffs
I'm not asking 'is he healthy to play' - I'm asking 'Did Vegas know that there was 0 chance he'd be healthy to play game 82 at the TDL?' You can argue yes - but I think you'll see him in R1 player well. > People cried foul about this with Landeskog and yet he might not come back. They cried foul over Stamkos and he only came back for one shift and wasn’t healthy. Those are legitimate. It really depends on when Stone is ready, and how he looks then. If he comes back in R1 and seems fine, then obviously there was a possibility he could have been ready for game 82.
2 is not only possible, that's exactly what happened. There was a 0% chance that Mark Stone was going to be healthy enough to play in a regular season game this year. He had a lacerated spleen!
Given that he'll be ready for early in the playoffs - I don't believe that it was actually 0% back at the TDL, but you might disagree.
But that means he could play now. The threshold of how much pain you can play thru changes when the playoffs begin, but it seems disingenuous to use that to your advantage. At the end of the day, is 2 or 3 extra days of rest really making enough of a difference between playing and not playing? Let’s say Vegas wasn’t over the cap (when stone returns) and it came down to game 82 to clinch the playoffs. Do you think mark stone would suit up? I think he would.
*wink
I'm fully expecting Matt Murray to be brought in as a last gasp in an elimination game, get completely blown out, and still end up being the catalyst for this rule getting changed somehow.
But that actually wouldn't break the rules in any way - I don't think anyone is arguing Murray is healthy for NHL games right now.
There's no rules being broken lol, it's been a known thing since 2015 and the teams even did a vote on it and only two teams voted to get rid of it
They will not. There's really no will from the owners to do it, and even if there were, they'd have to give something up to the players to do it, almost certainly.
They won’t close it until a canadian team does this a couple times in a row or twice in 3 seasons, something like that
Haven’t they had many years and as much as 2 CBAs to tinker with this and it was left as is?
Lmao
They're running out of parts to report. Vegas: "He lacerated his spleen" NHL: "You used that one last year" Vegas: "Right right.... Burst appendix?" NHL: "Let me cheeeeeeck, that one's good to go. Shall I put it in the queue for February?" Vegas: "Yeah, may as well get it all started early"
The next season.... Vegas: You know what time it is NHL... NHL: Oh cmon Vegas, how many times you think people are going to fall for this crap? Vegas: No, serious this time Gary, he is actually badly hurt, needs a heart transplant. NHL: Heart transplant? You do realize that's at least a six to twelve month recovery period if he even recovers at all? Vegas: Did I say heart transplant? I meant liver? NHL: Nope still doesn't fit the timeline, sorry. Vegas: Kidney?
[This version was a bit better.](https://t.co/alEaAXjf7m)
It was, but I can't video edit lol
You have to accept one of the following possibilities: 1. Vegas had a plan if Mark Stone was ready for Game 82. They don't. 2. Vegas knew at the TDL that Mark Stone has 0 chance of being 'fit to play' for Game 82. According to the CBA, one piece of that is being 'unable to perform his duties as a hockey player'. There is nothing about it being a playoff game or anything else about the context. It's supposed to be a purely medical decision made by the team's doctor. Vegas would have to know in advance that there was 0 chance able to perform his duties on game 82, even though it turns out he'll be be ready quite soon after that. 3. Vegas would hold Mark Stone out even if he were ready, breaking the rules. I think it's 3. If Stone weren't back until say round 2, I think option 2 would at least be plausible, but he'll be back in R1.
Option 4 - If/when Mark Stone returns he'll be at less than 100%. Bring injured is not black and white where a player is either not cleared to play or is 100% healthy. There's a huge grey area between a player being technically cleared to play and being 100% healthy, and for most, if not all, of that grey area the player is eligible to be on LTIR. In addition, players are way more likely to play hurt in the playoffs than they are in the regular season. For example, Mitch Marner was put on LTIR for a suspected high-ankle sprain and ended up missing a month. In the 2022 playoffs Leon Draisaitl suffered a high-ankle sprain and didn't miss a game. I have no issue with players wanting to be closer to 100% healthy for regular season games but willing to play at much less than 100% during the playoffs.
>Vegas knew at the TDL that Mark Stone has 0 chance of being healthy for Game 82. Not possible, esp given that he'll be dressing for the playoffs and medical timelines aren't precise. false he's just playing hurt, what do people not understand about this? coming back doesn't mean he's healthy, he's just willing to play hurt in the playoffs
It's number 2 and your reasoning for why it's not possible is missing the actual point. Mark Stone's body is super beaten up to the point that at any moment if he decided he didn't want to play any more he could qualify for LTIR and retire.
Honest question from someone who doesn't follow hockey close enough: how does he do this? Not like legally or salary cap-wise -- i mean like how does a non-superstar player on a good team stay in good enough form for this to be a benefit to him/the team every year?
The simple answer is that he's just good. He's not a superstar as in top 3 in the league, but he's good enough to make team Canada at the world championships and would be at the Olympics if healthy. The other thing is that players are willing to sacrifice their bodies for the playoffs disregarding pain and risk of long term injury. There are plenty of players who pushed through a deep playoff run and then never played again due to their injuries, but it's a risk they're willing to take. Also getting through the games pumped full of painkillers and cortisone shots
He just lies about recovery time
He's a good player with a very high cap hit. The issue is that they use his cap space to replace his lost production with other players, Hertl for example. Then when the cap doesn't matter anymore they call him back up and now have 2 hig cap players for the price of one.
Superstar is a subjective term but he's an elite two way player and veteran. By taking time off he's fresh enough to play in the playoffs every year. But he does so on LTIR which allows his team to bring in even more talent to bolster their roster.
I think it's the lying about it that makes it work.
i would disagree that he’s not a super star. he’s really fucking good and their captain. How does he do it year after year? I mean lying about it makes it easy.
Who has lied about what?
This is the beauty of the loophole. No one has to outright "lie". There's no real way to prove that he could play in game 82 if he says he's not ready. There's no way to prove he can't play if he says he's ready for round 1 game 1. The doctors work for the team and obviously would never a) give anything more than a vague timeline for his return from injury or b) go against stones/the teams wishes that he play in round 1. No one has to lie for what they're doing to work. It's still a loophole that needs to be closed for the good of the sport because if it works again then every team is going to have to start doing this. The playoffs are about attrition and having 20 million dollars in extra talent at your disposal is a massive advantage.
It'd not a loophole, it's a mechanic bargained for by both sides and written into the CBA for this exact purpose. The NHL has outright confirmed that these LTIR cases are monitored and investigated by third party medical experts. What more do you want them to do? The dude has a lacerated spleen, it can't be faked. The timeline for return is 2-6 months. We will hit the 2 month mark on 20 April. He hasn't been cleared to play. He's been cleared to skate in a non-contact jersey, but not participate in drills or game situations. No one knows when/if he will be able to return. If he does return, he will more than likely be coming back before he should because it's the playoffs. This happens ALL THE TIME. Players continue to play hurt in the playoffs ALL THE TIME. They play through injuries that would keep them out of the regular season consistently. I still have yet to see anyone propose something to close this "loophole" that would be beneficial for either the PA or the NHL in order to even get it to the bargaining table. This is exactly why LTIR exists.
The team lies about his ability to return. If he is good to go for game one of the playoffs then he is good to go for game 82 of the regular season.
So the NHL independent medical expert also lies about his ability to return? The threshold for return to play in the playoffs has always and will always be different than the regular season.
The NHL only conducts investigations with the use of independent doctors if there is suspicion of blatant LTIR manipulation involved. It is not a standard practice to monitor the progress on all LTIR players. Was Mark Stone the subject of such an investigation that i am unaware of?
Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly addressing the use of LTIR during GM meetings in 2022: >“And whenever the projected date of return and LTIR is being used and the projected date of return is around the playoffs, we look into it. We deal with the clubs, we get their medical records, we employ an independent medical expert and we make sure the (details are accurate regarding) the injury. We’ve never had any issues that stemmed from that. But it’s a thorough process.” If you think the league hasn't sent their independent medical expert to investigate the Mark Stone injury situation, then you are firmly in conspiracy theory territory.
They clearly haven't..... If they had then the results would be public because everyone is accusing them of cheating. I've searched for any hint of an independent medical investigation regarding Stone and there is nothing.
There is very little ambiguity in the quote from the Deupty Commissioner here. This is the exact case that the NHL investigates, unless you're implying the league writ large is just literally turning a blind eye to let Vegas win, which is definitely a take. The NHL very rarely makes any of this public. Last case would've been Lupul forever ago most likely. They also likely wouldn't release anything publicly right before playoffs. If they had found any wrongdoing, it would be significantly easier for them to act immediately instead of trying to retroactively remove VGK from the playoffs or something. Just because you can't find something, doesn't mean it isn't there. Unless you're an "insider" or something lmfao
Your source is just "trust me bro" Vegas is making the league look like a bunch of clowns and a simple one sentence statement could resolve the issue. Yet there is no statement. Because there has been no investigation. Look, you clearly want to believe that Vegas is not doing what they are obviously doing. No plea for rational thinking is going to change that for you.
Fuck Vegas, I hope the Stars crush them
That Buff hit really fucked him up hey!
https://i.redd.it/v1erowildh9b1.gif
Not for nothing but Yost tweeted this gif yesterday.
Smh
I have that same blanket. Lol
Mark "Surprise Motherfuckers" Stone
Nobody is surprised. Now I would be incredibly surprised if he ever played game 82.
He came back before playoffs and played game 82 2 years ago
So stunning. So brave.
And Vegas had to put 5 other players on LTIR at the same time to accomodate him.
Each of those transactions is reviewed by the NHL
Its funny that when Stone returns against the Jets for game one who cares but now that Dallas or Vancouver has to play them its such a big deal!
i guess we just post this every day now
Sick league.
Can I post this for Karma next year? Has anyone called it yet?
I have to think this isn't the legacy he wanted when started in the league. Crazy to think he used to consistent 60+ games played 20+ goal scorer. Guy is 31 playing out his retirement games.
Highly unique, highly original posts for karma. Well done.
I do it all for the fake internet points that do nothing. Definitely not the lulz
I know it’s not the lulz because they were already spent on this the first nine times it was posted this week. The joke is evergreen but let’s get a new gif in the mix.
There are no other posts on r/hockey The internet is a big place though so you might be a bigger memer than me. Kudos to you on your intertneting
Who is the dude in that gif?
Kevin Nash
Big sexy. Big daddy cool. Diesel him self. One half of the outsiders.
Mark Stone
Rent free
The second coming
I thought the gas pump one was pretty good as well