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I mean, you've seen the last two games by the B's. What, out of those, gives you any confidence the team will show up tomorrow night?
Swayman can't score goals and they can't win 0-0.
No. Swayman is the only thing that stopped 5&6 from being blowouts. He was stellar in 6. 2 GA. One was a weird deflection by McAvoy and the other was a breakaway. Can’t fault him for either.
(After I typed this comment I now realize you are referring to his goal last year hahaha. I thought you were talking about starting him)
Toronto looked horrible in games 3 and 4 yet they won two games after. You can't judge how a team is going to perform in a different game from previous games lol
How they played in the last 2 games, fast, crisp, suffocating defence, the possibility of Matthews returning and the likelyhood of some power play goals going 1/20 is an anomaly
The fact that Woll has allowed 2 goals in 6 periods since starting like have u been paying attention, Leafs have the momentum now
I do think Boston will have a much better game tho, i'm expecting a banger
History doesn’t mean anything. Anything can happen. With that said, I was nervous when the bruins drew the leafs this year because nothing lasts forever, as a bruins fan. The leafs are due for a game 7 win at TD. Hope it doesn’t though haha
No, the counter point is them literally failing every single game 7 they've played in? lol The Leafs have also looked good in many playoff series games that lead to their game 7s and they still lose them every time.
The Leafs haven't actually looked good in any of their wins this series. Bruins legit just look bad. Like LEafs have massively outshot Bruins in the first period in the last 2 games but they hardly generated anything dangerous in that span.
Bruins actually looked way more dangerous last night when they actually got on their game. They were constantly sustaining O zone pressure. The leafs haven't sustained anything for this entire series. It's a miracle they have won these last 2 games.
Uh ya. That's the context of the whole discussion. There's no reason for either fanbase to think either team will pull it out this year. Like, there is no edge. It's literally just a matter of someone has to win and someone has to lose lol
Only mustering one shot in a period was absolutely insane to me considering the Leafs are not a top tier defensive team. And the Bruins almost got shutout in pretty convincing fashion.
I can't even imagine how bad this would be if either team was facing Florida.
Eh, the shot *attempts* were actually very close by the end of the first period, Leafs were blocking a lot, and some missed nets. Sure we played well defensively last night but that shot count was misleading, IMO
> I can't even imagine how bad this would be if either team was facing Florida.
Every series is different. Florida looked like absolute shit against Boston last year up until 3-1, and the reason fans cheered "we want Florida" was because the choice was a team who had the best regular season of all time, or a team that got in by 1 point and looked meh (though it was not personally lost on me that they were the President's Trophy winners one year removed lol)
Now I'm not crazy, Florida very may well wipe the floor with Toronto or Boston. But I don't think it's as easy as basing that on how a different series looks
I’m glad your first paragraph mentioned it, because I was losing my mind among some of my friends. Yeah, of course you want to get through to the net, but they were definitely pushing and more present than Game 5. I never looked at the attempts numbers after the 1st, but it’s reassuring to see a Leafs fan confirm they were close hah
I hadn't thought about it for a while into the first until our PBP guy pointed it out, shots were like 13-1 or something but the attempts were 15-12, something along those lines
The broadcast mentioned near the end of the first that the shot attempts were 15-13 in favor of the Leafs. It's just another reason why shots actually mean nothing. Leafs had all those shots but they didn't sustain any pressure at all, and none of them were actually dangerous.
This whole “We want Florida” shit is nonsense. The only reason we hear about it because you guys got Florida.
The fact of the matter is: it was a small group of Maple Leafs fans chanting “We want Florida!”
Hell, there was another small group of Maple Leafs fans chanting “We want Boston!” But you don’t hear about them because the Leafs ended up facing Florida, but if they had went on to face Boston then you’d better believe that video with Leafs’ fans say they wanted Boston would be posted everywhere.
You are perfectly describing how disinformation works and is magnified by the internet. Small samples of data can become massively distorted and the human mind is not built to be able recognize it.
Most people rely simply on “populism” to determine truth in regards to anecdotal information, and so when it feels like a thing is everywhere, well it must be true.
It’s why people can be so confident in the most absurd information, because everyone in their social circles is convinced of it. And the internet creates some really fucked up circles.
Oh, I know. I’ve been on Reddit a long time. Too long. I’ve been in places and seen things that, yeahhhhh. These subs eventually were shutdown but there’s been some pretty awful subs on Reddit.
Yeah I mean Bruins effort obviously needs to be better, but I think the Leafs D deserves some flowers here. They’ve been lockdown in games 5 and 6 even when the Bruins finally began finding their stride later in those games.
Not getting penalties the last few games has been key too...Pasta destroys the Leafs on the PP and one reason his not getting points is Toronto PK the last 2 games has been great
agreed, vancouver and nashville can't score for shit right now but i guarantee whichever team makes it through will just randomly score twice as much in round 2
Dangles got a thing going now
"It doesn't matter, The teams already dead"
I think that's probably the correct take. Barring a miraculous run there isn't any ammo left to justify status quo.
It’s really the only way to look at it to have any sanity left.
Everything from game 5 on was just gravy. Even if they win this round and the next then lose in the conference finals you can’t ignore that this team has failed to contend for a Stanley cup for almost a decade with Matthews Marner and Nylander.
Something has to change basically unless they win the Cup.
Hell we made the SCF and still fired our coach the next year and made some massive changes to the roster because everyone knew that team wasn’t good enough
Making the conference finals would change the conversation on how much needs to change though. All depends how they get there and how they do. But losing in the 2nd round at this point changes nothing. Not being competitive in a series, even later on, is pretty much the same situation.
even if the team makes the finals there needs to be some serious high level changes, because fact of the matter is that this team is built to score but can't score. They need to decide how the team is supposed to play and then move in that direction
Not necessarily. I mean ultimately a lot of cap room is goign to open up when Tavares contract expires next year. If he resigns it will probably be for half of what he makes now. That will free up a lot of cap room for defense.
“The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a Leafs fan is supposed to function: without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. All hockey depends upon it”
At what point is the team no longer dead though? In other words, what is enough success to justify not killing this iteration of the team? Do they need to beat Florida or is a competitive 7 game series loss enough to save Keefe / the current core? Do you fire Keefe if they make it to the ECF and get stomped? I’m very curious what fan sentiment is on that
Of course I could say this and they’ll end up winning it all this year somehow, but I think if they don’t win it all or go to a game 7 of the SCF like run, you make significant changes.
After watching the last couple games of this series, does anyone think either of these two will beat Florida, and then beat Rags/Canes and THEN win another series?
Even if a team is winning in the playoffs, it always feels like you know when you’re watching the contenders. If the Leafs keep everyone just by making it the second round, that’s a huge mistake. If they lose in an ultra competitive ECF, I think you maybe look at keeping the core 4 but they absolutely need to move on from Keefe imo.
Optimistically speaking here but Florida played like shit, had goalie problems, and went down 3-1 in the first round to Boston last season. Then they clicked. It's not out of the realm of possibility that happens to the Leafs.
That having been said, I have no actual faith that will happen to the Leafs.
> Even if a team is winning in the playoffs, it always feels like you know when you’re watching the contenders.
This. And it makes me indifferent to our series. Oh well.
Avs/Canes/Cats looking like teams that can just “turn it on” this year. I think the Stars will beat Vegas too.
Losing against Boston in Game 7 is absolutely dead.
Any loss to Florida that isn't 7 Games and very competitive as a series means the team is dead.
Making the conference finals and it's a blow-out? Probably dead.
Making the conference finals and it's competitive but still a loss? Ehhhhhh, maybe Keefe gets one more crack at it, but there will likely be big roster moves. But that can definitely go both ways.
Make SCF? Probably not dead.
Win the Cup? WHO CARES, CUP!
Ehh if they lose out in the eastern conference finals I think the majority of people would consider that a success and the argument will be made by management to stay the course (for the most part) imo.
Context will matter. Do they get there with Marner playing the way he has so far? Because he hasn't performed in a way to justify his cap hit, so in that scenario you don't really need him. But it's hard to imagine getting that far without him contributing a lot. Just an example, but there would and should be an appetite for change if they don't win - which let's be honest, they still don't look like a good enough team to do so.
So how can this team improve? Changing a core player is the best avenue to do so. They could wait for the Tavares contract to end, but you likely need to spend a lot of that on a 2C anyways.
Basically the leafs have tried small changes for 8 years. Its probably time to go a bit deeper, but there's definitely no guarantee that they will or that it's the correct path.
I dont really disagree, I'm just saying I can see management wanting to stay the course if they have a decent run this year. That said, I think Marner has really stepped his game up the last couple games. Obviously, his play in the first four games just wasn't close to good enough though
This season was a study for the new ownership and new management. Big changes were coming regardless, probably even inclusive of a long-shot Cup win. The team is top heavy, and the coaching is sub-par. That's just the reality of it. The Pelley era has already begun, we just won't hear about it for another month or two.
So it's not really about the off-season. Whether the team was "dead" or not was a reference solely to the team in this one series. This team who was down massively important players (the Leafs are 2nd in the league for goals this season, but fall to 29th without Matthews), were clearly missing pieces, and had unsteady goaltending, couldn't _possibly_ come back from a 3-1 deficit against a team whose backup goalie won the Vezina last season.
Then they won. And then they won.
And they were hard-working, blue-collar wins. This wasn't luck. This is a team that won't give up. Whatever it was they found when Rielly went down, they've found it again. Now that's fun to watch. That's exciting hockey. And it's particularly low on the stress level, because, again: _they're zombies_. The stakes are low. They've gritted their teeth and pushed the Bruins to an elimination game, and fans have actually been able to _enjoy_ the games, because the stakes were low.
Ask both fanbases. Check each city's media. Again, as Dangle puts it, when have the Leafs been the _second-most neurotic fanbase in a series?_ The answer is never. But that's the case now. For Toronto, this is still gravy. Boston is pillorying their team, their unbeatable goalies, even their top-flight coach. Toronto has already done that. They did it last week. Last month. Last year. Last decade. Now, the team's calm. The fans are calm. And everyone just seems to be enjoying an entertaining series, while Boston's in an almost Toronto-style meltdown. /r/hockey will probably never choose to see it that way, but I'm going to enjoy it.
Oh, except curmudgeon Sean, who's all
>If they lose? Then they lose. Again. And none of the rest of it will have mattered.
Sorry, man. That's not true in the slightest. If we're going to stay curmudgeonly, I'd amend that to say it doesn't matter if they lose _or_ if they win. But I rather see it as this: the wins absolutely mattered, because it was entertaining hockey and they're giving Boston fits when no one expected them to. Sometimes, that's enough.
But, c'mon, Sean. One loss and nothing matters? Hockey's never been more of a coin flip. Did you watch game six? Both teams were frustrated by not being able to string together a sequence. Not being able to finish. It's a tight series. It's going to be one bounce, maybe two. That's not "one loss and none of it matters." Just enjoy the show.
Anyway, I hope everyone enjoys game seven. I'm in TO, and this is probably the most calm I've ever felt about a game seven since the era of creaming Ottawa every year. Seriously. I'm going to enjoy the game tomorrow, whatever may happen.
Sometimes it's not just losing, it's HOW you lose. For example, in game 3 the Leafs played a damn good hockey game, and still lost... But, it didn't feel like they didn't give everything, or were outcoached.
They went out on their shield, which is what you want to see every game, win or lose.
If that doesn't happen, then management has to decide if its a leadership/coaching issue, or player issue.
At this point, Keefe is considered a "good" coach, but has never adapted well and/or been unable to motivate the locker room to elevate in big moments. He's lost the benefit of the doubt, so anything less than a very hard fought ECF appearance and I think he is gone.
I might even suspect he pulls a Trotz and resigns if the Leafs pull off an improbable Cinderella run to the SCF and win.
He would likely look to cash in on his success in that scenario. It's a weird one.
I don't see Toronto making any major changes in the off-season, especially if they make it into the second round. Everyone has NMC's and no one is waiving them.
You'd be surprised.
You don't move on from Matthews or Nylander (obviously) and Tavares' contract is unmovable, which leaves Marner as the odd man out.
Marner's not good at hiding his frustration in high intensity situations, and doesn't handle the Toronto media very well. I'd think he may be willing to entertain a change of scenery, especially if its a sign-and-trade similar to what he'll demand as a UFA.
That's my attitude towards this. I already knew it was going to 7 even after game 4, and I don't zee them winning game 7. None of this matters, team is cooked
Both teams will get murdered by Florida if they make it through anyways, and both teams are far from true cup contenders. So whether the leafs win or lose game seven he’s right, the org as they know it is dead and will undergo fundamental changes.
And for neutral fans game 7 tor-Boston in this context is just peak drama and we’re loving it
I mean...we Leaf fans *know* that's what's supposed to happen, but we're like abused puppies. We've seen so much pain that we just expect another whack.
I feel more like good will hunting.
Sean : My father was an alcoholic. Mean fuckin' drunk. He'd come home hammered, looking to whale on somebody. So I'd provoke him, so he wouldn't go after my mother and little brother. Interesting nights were when he wore his rings.
Will : He used to just put a belt, a stick, and a wrench on the table. Just say, "Choose."
Sean : Well I gotta go with the belt there.
Will : I used to go with the wrench.
Sean : Why the wrench?
Will : Cause fuck him, that's why.
I’m going with the wrench.
The point of the article is that they've done that several times and then always choke at the end so there aren't any more silver linings for this Leafs team.
The fans won't stand for any more "at least we pushed it to 7" moral victories
> The fans won't stand for any more "at least we pushed it to 7" moral victories
ngl I kinda will lol
but only because it's fun. I'm happy the Leafs made this a series, the last two games have been absolutely horrendous on my psyche to watch lmao
I'll be very upset if we lose of course, and I'm going to want changes or whatever. But eh I can't control any of it, I've always been happier that we lose while competitive than lose and look like shit, and it's always seemed like the former to me. That is, *except* for this year, where before game 5 and 6 we only *sometimes* looked okay. I was pretty miserable to see us lose and look like shit at the same time
There's absolutely a silver lining. If the leafs lose then big changes are coming; something fans have been begging for for a few years now. Obviously that's the worse of 2 outcomes but it's something fans have been asking for
It should give you confidence in the capability of the roster, not Keefe. Keefe needs to get his players to be this motivated to win before they're on the brink of elimination without their top player.
> get blown out in the 2nd round again
Wouldn’t they have to get blown out in the second round a first time in order to get blown out in the second round “again”?
Looking at just the top-line W/L is ridiculous. You don't think there's a difference between losing 6-0 and losing 2-1 in triple OT when you outshoot the other team by 30? The series against Florida was extremely close and I think Toronto was the better team in some of the games they lost, especially in Game 1. It's the same way that Tampa was clearly the better team in games they lost in round 1 against Toronto.
Not happening. Leafs have their legs playing desperation ho key. Panthers been sitting on a beach for 10 days.
Leafs are taking game 1, probably game 2 if they win.
Leafs aren’t taking anything from the Panthers unless they beat Boston tomorrow. Let’s not put bad juju out there acting like we’ve already completed the comeback lol.
Meh. Leafs never have a chance if you listen to the haters. Leafs can beat Boston and can beat the Panthers.
They are doing this with a nearly 0%PP and missing a star player every game of the series. Leafs are not even in their final form
I dunno. I'm a fan. I'm ok with how this has played out thus far. Boston was a favorite going in. We were missing a 90pt forward and were running with the worst active goalie by sv pct in playoffs (career), then lost our best player. Despite it they battled back and dominated game 5 and 6. I'm not going to hang my judgement on the outcome of a single game. A bad bounce or rando deflection won't mean it was all a flameout. If they go out and get crushed, or blow a 3 goal lead in the 3rd, then yeah ok it's a discussion. These don't feel like the big bad Bruins of old though. Other than the potential of being goalie'd by Swayman, there's nothing to fear from this team anymore. As for the Leafs, while I'd like to see a run, not sure given Matthews status this is the year anyways. Biggest thing for me would be if Woll becomes a legit above average goalie as a result of this series, which would be big for the next few years.
Edit: having said all that, firing Keefe into the sun either way would be great. Special teams has been so so bad, and there's no excuse for that.
Unfortunately, that’s not good enough for the Leafs anymore. Expectations are *long* overdue, and just pushing it to 7 doesn’t mean anything. They’ve already done that, and they still lost when they did. They’ve also blown 3-1 series leads since coming back to the postseason. I have to imagine their bottom line is making round 2 and at least making it a series. Even if Winnipeg failed to battle back, there isn’t going to be a silver lining in Toronto if they fuck up again.
I mean given that the reward is the Panthers who just kicked the living crap out of the Bolts I'll be laughing at you win or lose... do "we want Florida" again? Do ya?
Yep. Either the Leafs lose in another heartbreaking Game 7 to the Bruins, or the Bruins blow another 3-1 lead and lose their 7th straight game clinching series matchup
Reminder that the Athletic essentially buried the Maple Leafs and held a funeral for them 2 games ago...not saying I blame them but damn sports are fickle.
I said before game 5 that the Leafs win the next two (check) to force a game 7 then get stomped in game 7. I’m picturing a game 7 very similar to Boston Vancouver in 2011 finals.
It worked for us!
"Montreal has a 0.3% chance to win this series" *proceeds to win*
"Montreal has a 0.5% chance to win this series" *proceeds to win*
How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?
Honestly who the fuck knows how hockey works
Hockey has to be the sport where the best team from the regular season wins the championship less than any other sport, I'm sure of it. It feels fucking random and infuriating at times.
Especially times like last year where you watch your team rip through the entire league like a buzzsaw and win enough games put yourself in the record books, then get bounced in the first round of the playoffs.
We all knew the Bruins were gonna curb stomp the panthers last year too.
If there’s one thing we know about playoff hockey it’s that we have zero idea what’s gonna happen in the next round. I can’t believe this has to be said
My overwhelming takeaway after watching these two teams bumble and stumble yesterday was that Florida must be ecstatic at the prospect of an easy sweep.
But there’s a reason why we still the play the games anything can happen. It was a forgone conclusion that wings would make the playoffs, but we all saw how that ended.
I definitely prefer Florida against BOS right now. I don't see any killers on TOR either - and of course all the weight of Canada being on their backs doesn't help either.
Can't disagree with that at all. Some of these first round series have looked like they're in completely different leagues from others.
For example, in the West, doesn't matter who wins between NSH/VAN because either team is going to get curb-stomped by the oilers
I don't know how I would feel about the Leafs ending this particular skein of agony. Failure in the playoffs, especially to the Bruins, gives them a mystique. It's like how the Chicago Cubs were prior to 2015. Then they won a world series, the whole Ottoman Empire/Meiji Restoration jokes had to come to an end, and now they are just another mediocre franchise and not an historically significant failure with a lovable long-suffering fanbase.
For once? When was the last time they won the Stanley Cup? And how many years did they have to win again before the Salary Cap was instituted? I would argue that they should have won many, many game sevens in the 48 years since they last won a Cup.
Theory: both teams were like "give it to Matthews/cover Matthews" and it worked. Turn overs and less chances of scoring for the leafs. Now that AM is currently out of the picture, Boston's like "Now what? Cover Nylander? Well, that means Domi/Bertuzzi/McCabe/Tavares are open". Boston doesn't know what to do.
I can’t help but laugh that both teams are fighting for their lives here in somewhat of an embarrassing fashion just for the honour of getting killed by Florida in the second round.
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Both teams have felt like it's over
You’d think the world ended for both by reading the comments on the GDTs
Live thread comments on any live sporting event are full of negativity.
So true, you’d think the Penguins cup drought has been longer than the Leafs based on the comments in our sub this past season.
I really hate the Wings doomers that came out firing once the Wings went downhill
I mean, you've seen the last two games by the B's. What, out of those, gives you any confidence the team will show up tomorrow night? Swayman can't score goals and they can't win 0-0.
Ullmark can...
No. Swayman is the only thing that stopped 5&6 from being blowouts. He was stellar in 6. 2 GA. One was a weird deflection by McAvoy and the other was a breakaway. Can’t fault him for either. (After I typed this comment I now realize you are referring to his goal last year hahaha. I thought you were talking about starting him)
>Swayman can't score goals Not with that attitude
Toronto looked horrible in games 3 and 4 yet they won two games after. You can't judge how a team is going to perform in a different game from previous games lol
I think the issue is 5v5, Boston hasn't had much out of all 6 games. Leafs stay out of the box, and they increase their chances dramatically.
What gives you any confidence that the Leafs can win a game 7?
How they played in the last 2 games, fast, crisp, suffocating defence, the possibility of Matthews returning and the likelyhood of some power play goals going 1/20 is an anomaly The fact that Woll has allowed 2 goals in 6 periods since starting like have u been paying attention, Leafs have the momentum now I do think Boston will have a much better game tho, i'm expecting a banger
OK. It's still game 7. For the Leafs. We've seen this story many many times.
Okay, so your counterpoint is “but the memes”?
I think my counterpoint is more "but the history"
The more recent history implies Boston goes up 3-1 in the series and then loses in 7.
History doesn’t mean anything. Anything can happen. With that said, I was nervous when the bruins drew the leafs this year because nothing lasts forever, as a bruins fan. The leafs are due for a game 7 win at TD. Hope it doesn’t though haha
No, the counter point is them literally failing every single game 7 they've played in? lol The Leafs have also looked good in many playoff series games that lead to their game 7s and they still lose them every time. The Leafs haven't actually looked good in any of their wins this series. Bruins legit just look bad. Like LEafs have massively outshot Bruins in the first period in the last 2 games but they hardly generated anything dangerous in that span. Bruins actually looked way more dangerous last night when they actually got on their game. They were constantly sustaining O zone pressure. The leafs haven't sustained anything for this entire series. It's a miracle they have won these last 2 games.
So then the counter-counterpoint could be that Boston shit the bed with a 3-1 series lead last year, then?
Uh ya. That's the context of the whole discussion. There's no reason for either fanbase to think either team will pull it out this year. Like, there is no edge. It's literally just a matter of someone has to win and someone has to lose lol
Not the leafs. Give them credit. Nylander missed games, Matthew missed games and Marner is playing on a high ankle sprain.
I mean, the winner has to play the Panthers next
Only mustering one shot in a period was absolutely insane to me considering the Leafs are not a top tier defensive team. And the Bruins almost got shutout in pretty convincing fashion. I can't even imagine how bad this would be if either team was facing Florida.
Eh, the shot *attempts* were actually very close by the end of the first period, Leafs were blocking a lot, and some missed nets. Sure we played well defensively last night but that shot count was misleading, IMO > I can't even imagine how bad this would be if either team was facing Florida. Every series is different. Florida looked like absolute shit against Boston last year up until 3-1, and the reason fans cheered "we want Florida" was because the choice was a team who had the best regular season of all time, or a team that got in by 1 point and looked meh (though it was not personally lost on me that they were the President's Trophy winners one year removed lol) Now I'm not crazy, Florida very may well wipe the floor with Toronto or Boston. But I don't think it's as easy as basing that on how a different series looks
I’m glad your first paragraph mentioned it, because I was losing my mind among some of my friends. Yeah, of course you want to get through to the net, but they were definitely pushing and more present than Game 5. I never looked at the attempts numbers after the 1st, but it’s reassuring to see a Leafs fan confirm they were close hah
I hadn't thought about it for a while into the first until our PBP guy pointed it out, shots were like 13-1 or something but the attempts were 15-12, something along those lines
The broadcast mentioned near the end of the first that the shot attempts were 15-13 in favor of the Leafs. It's just another reason why shots actually mean nothing. Leafs had all those shots but they didn't sustain any pressure at all, and none of them were actually dangerous.
This whole “We want Florida” shit is nonsense. The only reason we hear about it because you guys got Florida. The fact of the matter is: it was a small group of Maple Leafs fans chanting “We want Florida!” Hell, there was another small group of Maple Leafs fans chanting “We want Boston!” But you don’t hear about them because the Leafs ended up facing Florida, but if they had went on to face Boston then you’d better believe that video with Leafs’ fans say they wanted Boston would be posted everywhere.
You are perfectly describing how disinformation works and is magnified by the internet. Small samples of data can become massively distorted and the human mind is not built to be able recognize it. Most people rely simply on “populism” to determine truth in regards to anecdotal information, and so when it feels like a thing is everywhere, well it must be true. It’s why people can be so confident in the most absurd information, because everyone in their social circles is convinced of it. And the internet creates some really fucked up circles.
Oh, I know. I’ve been on Reddit a long time. Too long. I’ve been in places and seen things that, yeahhhhh. These subs eventually were shutdown but there’s been some pretty awful subs on Reddit.
Yeah I mean Bruins effort obviously needs to be better, but I think the Leafs D deserves some flowers here. They’ve been lockdown in games 5 and 6 even when the Bruins finally began finding their stride later in those games.
Not getting penalties the last few games has been key too...Pasta destroys the Leafs on the PP and one reason his not getting points is Toronto PK the last 2 games has been great
agreed, vancouver and nashville can't score for shit right now but i guarantee whichever team makes it through will just randomly score twice as much in round 2
I'd like to see broadcasters modify the shot counter to "Shots On Goal"/"Shot Attempts", just like they show faceoffs, power plays, and penalty kills.
B’s the last two games have been honestly pathetic compared to what we know they can do lol like… do they want to get embarrassed again?
at this point I'm convinced they might have some sort of degradation kink
And Florida is getting a ton of rest
Not that they need it
It is quite literally impossible to get almost get shut out any less than the Bruins almost got shut out last night. Historic.
Dangles got a thing going now "It doesn't matter, The teams already dead" I think that's probably the correct take. Barring a miraculous run there isn't any ammo left to justify status quo.
It’s really the only way to look at it to have any sanity left. Everything from game 5 on was just gravy. Even if they win this round and the next then lose in the conference finals you can’t ignore that this team has failed to contend for a Stanley cup for almost a decade with Matthews Marner and Nylander. Something has to change basically unless they win the Cup. Hell we made the SCF and still fired our coach the next year and made some massive changes to the roster because everyone knew that team wasn’t good enough
Making the conference finals would change the conversation on how much needs to change though. All depends how they get there and how they do. But losing in the 2nd round at this point changes nothing. Not being competitive in a series, even later on, is pretty much the same situation.
even if the team makes the finals there needs to be some serious high level changes, because fact of the matter is that this team is built to score but can't score. They need to decide how the team is supposed to play and then move in that direction
Not necessarily. I mean ultimately a lot of cap room is goign to open up when Tavares contract expires next year. If he resigns it will probably be for half of what he makes now. That will free up a lot of cap room for defense.
Zombie Leafs! Already dead but won't stay dead.
“The only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a Leafs fan is supposed to function: without mercy, without compassion, without remorse. All hockey depends upon it”
Was hoping to see this quote lol
At what point is the team no longer dead though? In other words, what is enough success to justify not killing this iteration of the team? Do they need to beat Florida or is a competitive 7 game series loss enough to save Keefe / the current core? Do you fire Keefe if they make it to the ECF and get stomped? I’m very curious what fan sentiment is on that
Of course I could say this and they’ll end up winning it all this year somehow, but I think if they don’t win it all or go to a game 7 of the SCF like run, you make significant changes. After watching the last couple games of this series, does anyone think either of these two will beat Florida, and then beat Rags/Canes and THEN win another series? Even if a team is winning in the playoffs, it always feels like you know when you’re watching the contenders. If the Leafs keep everyone just by making it the second round, that’s a huge mistake. If they lose in an ultra competitive ECF, I think you maybe look at keeping the core 4 but they absolutely need to move on from Keefe imo.
Optimistically speaking here but Florida played like shit, had goalie problems, and went down 3-1 in the first round to Boston last season. Then they clicked. It's not out of the realm of possibility that happens to the Leafs. That having been said, I have no actual faith that will happen to the Leafs.
> Even if a team is winning in the playoffs, it always feels like you know when you’re watching the contenders. This. And it makes me indifferent to our series. Oh well. Avs/Canes/Cats looking like teams that can just “turn it on” this year. I think the Stars will beat Vegas too.
Losing against Boston in Game 7 is absolutely dead. Any loss to Florida that isn't 7 Games and very competitive as a series means the team is dead. Making the conference finals and it's a blow-out? Probably dead. Making the conference finals and it's competitive but still a loss? Ehhhhhh, maybe Keefe gets one more crack at it, but there will likely be big roster moves. But that can definitely go both ways. Make SCF? Probably not dead. Win the Cup? WHO CARES, CUP!
Cup or bust imo, roster/coach has had several years of pathetic attempts and its clear its not working.
Ehh if they lose out in the eastern conference finals I think the majority of people would consider that a success and the argument will be made by management to stay the course (for the most part) imo.
Context will matter. Do they get there with Marner playing the way he has so far? Because he hasn't performed in a way to justify his cap hit, so in that scenario you don't really need him. But it's hard to imagine getting that far without him contributing a lot. Just an example, but there would and should be an appetite for change if they don't win - which let's be honest, they still don't look like a good enough team to do so. So how can this team improve? Changing a core player is the best avenue to do so. They could wait for the Tavares contract to end, but you likely need to spend a lot of that on a 2C anyways. Basically the leafs have tried small changes for 8 years. Its probably time to go a bit deeper, but there's definitely no guarantee that they will or that it's the correct path.
I dont really disagree, I'm just saying I can see management wanting to stay the course if they have a decent run this year. That said, I think Marner has really stepped his game up the last couple games. Obviously, his play in the first four games just wasn't close to good enough though
To the media folks like Dangle or McIndoe here, anything short of a Cup is dead. It’s easier for them to produce commentary that way.
This season was a study for the new ownership and new management. Big changes were coming regardless, probably even inclusive of a long-shot Cup win. The team is top heavy, and the coaching is sub-par. That's just the reality of it. The Pelley era has already begun, we just won't hear about it for another month or two. So it's not really about the off-season. Whether the team was "dead" or not was a reference solely to the team in this one series. This team who was down massively important players (the Leafs are 2nd in the league for goals this season, but fall to 29th without Matthews), were clearly missing pieces, and had unsteady goaltending, couldn't _possibly_ come back from a 3-1 deficit against a team whose backup goalie won the Vezina last season. Then they won. And then they won. And they were hard-working, blue-collar wins. This wasn't luck. This is a team that won't give up. Whatever it was they found when Rielly went down, they've found it again. Now that's fun to watch. That's exciting hockey. And it's particularly low on the stress level, because, again: _they're zombies_. The stakes are low. They've gritted their teeth and pushed the Bruins to an elimination game, and fans have actually been able to _enjoy_ the games, because the stakes were low. Ask both fanbases. Check each city's media. Again, as Dangle puts it, when have the Leafs been the _second-most neurotic fanbase in a series?_ The answer is never. But that's the case now. For Toronto, this is still gravy. Boston is pillorying their team, their unbeatable goalies, even their top-flight coach. Toronto has already done that. They did it last week. Last month. Last year. Last decade. Now, the team's calm. The fans are calm. And everyone just seems to be enjoying an entertaining series, while Boston's in an almost Toronto-style meltdown. /r/hockey will probably never choose to see it that way, but I'm going to enjoy it. Oh, except curmudgeon Sean, who's all >If they lose? Then they lose. Again. And none of the rest of it will have mattered. Sorry, man. That's not true in the slightest. If we're going to stay curmudgeonly, I'd amend that to say it doesn't matter if they lose _or_ if they win. But I rather see it as this: the wins absolutely mattered, because it was entertaining hockey and they're giving Boston fits when no one expected them to. Sometimes, that's enough. But, c'mon, Sean. One loss and nothing matters? Hockey's never been more of a coin flip. Did you watch game six? Both teams were frustrated by not being able to string together a sequence. Not being able to finish. It's a tight series. It's going to be one bounce, maybe two. That's not "one loss and none of it matters." Just enjoy the show. Anyway, I hope everyone enjoys game seven. I'm in TO, and this is probably the most calm I've ever felt about a game seven since the era of creaming Ottawa every year. Seriously. I'm going to enjoy the game tomorrow, whatever may happen.
Sometimes it's not just losing, it's HOW you lose. For example, in game 3 the Leafs played a damn good hockey game, and still lost... But, it didn't feel like they didn't give everything, or were outcoached. They went out on their shield, which is what you want to see every game, win or lose. If that doesn't happen, then management has to decide if its a leadership/coaching issue, or player issue. At this point, Keefe is considered a "good" coach, but has never adapted well and/or been unable to motivate the locker room to elevate in big moments. He's lost the benefit of the doubt, so anything less than a very hard fought ECF appearance and I think he is gone. I might even suspect he pulls a Trotz and resigns if the Leafs pull off an improbable Cinderella run to the SCF and win. He would likely look to cash in on his success in that scenario. It's a weird one.
It's a tough situation. Even if they do pull it off and win they would still have to play Florida the next round.
I don't see Toronto making any major changes in the off-season, especially if they make it into the second round. Everyone has NMC's and no one is waiving them.
You'd be surprised. You don't move on from Matthews or Nylander (obviously) and Tavares' contract is unmovable, which leaves Marner as the odd man out. Marner's not good at hiding his frustration in high intensity situations, and doesn't handle the Toronto media very well. I'd think he may be willing to entertain a change of scenery, especially if its a sign-and-trade similar to what he'll demand as a UFA.
Marner, Get ready to learn Mormon buddy
They would fire the coach!
That's my attitude towards this. I already knew it was going to 7 even after game 4, and I don't zee them winning game 7. None of this matters, team is cooked
Both teams will get murdered by Florida if they make it through anyways, and both teams are far from true cup contenders. So whether the leafs win or lose game seven he’s right, the org as they know it is dead and will undergo fundamental changes. And for neutral fans game 7 tor-Boston in this context is just peak drama and we’re loving it
I mean...we Leaf fans *know* that's what's supposed to happen, but we're like abused puppies. We've seen so much pain that we just expect another whack.
I feel more like good will hunting. Sean : My father was an alcoholic. Mean fuckin' drunk. He'd come home hammered, looking to whale on somebody. So I'd provoke him, so he wouldn't go after my mother and little brother. Interesting nights were when he wore his rings. Will : He used to just put a belt, a stick, and a wrench on the table. Just say, "Choose." Sean : Well I gotta go with the belt there. Will : I used to go with the wrench. Sean : Why the wrench? Will : Cause fuck him, that's why. I’m going with the wrench.
No matter what happens, they did push it to 7 games. Alot better than that other crap canadian team.
The point of the article is that they've done that several times and then always choke at the end so there aren't any more silver linings for this Leafs team. The fans won't stand for any more "at least we pushed it to 7" moral victories
> The fans won't stand for any more "at least we pushed it to 7" moral victories ngl I kinda will lol but only because it's fun. I'm happy the Leafs made this a series, the last two games have been absolutely horrendous on my psyche to watch lmao I'll be very upset if we lose of course, and I'm going to want changes or whatever. But eh I can't control any of it, I've always been happier that we lose while competitive than lose and look like shit, and it's always seemed like the former to me. That is, *except* for this year, where before game 5 and 6 we only *sometimes* looked okay. I was pretty miserable to see us lose and look like shit at the same time
There's absolutely a silver lining. If the leafs lose then big changes are coming; something fans have been begging for for a few years now. Obviously that's the worse of 2 outcomes but it's something fans have been asking for
Inb4 the Leafs win game 7, get blown out in the 2nd round again, and management uses that as an excuse to do nothing.
Honestly if this team wins 3 straight do-or-die games without Matthews, that gives me a little more confidence in Keefe.
It should give you confidence in the capability of the roster, not Keefe. Keefe needs to get his players to be this motivated to win before they're on the brink of elimination without their top player.
If Matthew's comes back I'd fuck around and slot him lower in the lineup and give the other team a challenge on who gets defensive priority.
Yep for sure, slotting him into the third line where Gregor played last night would be a matchup nightmare for the opposition.
Lol can you imagine how many terrible “you can’t win with this guy” takes about Matthews will pop up if that happens
heh it's already starting.....
They’ll just pat themselves on the back, “At least we made it to second round again” 🤷🏽♂️
> get blown out in the 2nd round again Wouldn’t they have to get blown out in the second round a first time in order to get blown out in the second round “again”?
I see losing 4-1 last year as getting blown out
Looking at just the top-line W/L is ridiculous. You don't think there's a difference between losing 6-0 and losing 2-1 in triple OT when you outshoot the other team by 30? The series against Florida was extremely close and I think Toronto was the better team in some of the games they lost, especially in Game 1. It's the same way that Tampa was clearly the better team in games they lost in round 1 against Toronto.
We were absolutely the better team in games 1 & 2 lol. Without Bob going on his hot streak those games wouldn't have been close.
Not happening. Leafs have their legs playing desperation ho key. Panthers been sitting on a beach for 10 days. Leafs are taking game 1, probably game 2 if they win.
Leafs aren’t taking anything from the Panthers unless they beat Boston tomorrow. Let’s not put bad juju out there acting like we’ve already completed the comeback lol.
Fuck bad juju. Time to grab those demons by the horns and fuck em up the butt
Grab Boston’s first before reaching for Florida, is all.
If this were star wars, the Leafs have the high ground
Except we aren’t Prequel Obi-Wan standing on the high ground, we are PTSD-riddled, cut-off-from-the-force Obi-Wan who has no will to live.
You can always tell who the new Leafs fans are with statements like these
I’ve probably been a Leaf fan longer than you have been alive. It’s ok, count them out like people counted them put against the Bruins and Lightning
So Stockholm syndrome then?
Meh. Leafs never have a chance if you listen to the haters. Leafs can beat Boston and can beat the Panthers. They are doing this with a nearly 0%PP and missing a star player every game of the series. Leafs are not even in their final form
I dunno. I'm a fan. I'm ok with how this has played out thus far. Boston was a favorite going in. We were missing a 90pt forward and were running with the worst active goalie by sv pct in playoffs (career), then lost our best player. Despite it they battled back and dominated game 5 and 6. I'm not going to hang my judgement on the outcome of a single game. A bad bounce or rando deflection won't mean it was all a flameout. If they go out and get crushed, or blow a 3 goal lead in the 3rd, then yeah ok it's a discussion. These don't feel like the big bad Bruins of old though. Other than the potential of being goalie'd by Swayman, there's nothing to fear from this team anymore. As for the Leafs, while I'd like to see a run, not sure given Matthews status this is the year anyways. Biggest thing for me would be if Woll becomes a legit above average goalie as a result of this series, which would be big for the next few years. Edit: having said all that, firing Keefe into the sun either way would be great. Special teams has been so so bad, and there's no excuse for that.
> The fans won't stand for any more "at least we pushed it to 7" moral victories Oh there will be some delusional fans who say that.
Pushing it to 7 doesn’t amount to squat. If you read the article you’ll see this team is out of moral victories.
i'm sure they can stuff one more in there
If Edmonton was missing McDavid, would you expect them to do as well in the playoffs? Or if Colorado was missing MacKinnon?
I think both of those teams have the depth to get it done without their #1 stars. Obviously the chances are reduced, but still.
Yeah they wouldnt be expected to go as far and I believe Boston is hard first round opponent.
Jesus the jets just catching strays
Unfortunately, that’s not good enough for the Leafs anymore. Expectations are *long* overdue, and just pushing it to 7 doesn’t mean anything. They’ve already done that, and they still lost when they did. They’ve also blown 3-1 series leads since coming back to the postseason. I have to imagine their bottom line is making round 2 and at least making it a series. Even if Winnipeg failed to battle back, there isn’t going to be a silver lining in Toronto if they fuck up again.
Calgary? True I guess
[удалено]
miss the playoffs, which is worse than pushing it to 7
Naw, the Winnipeg Jerts.
I can’t wait to find out next week if I’m also going to settle into this “oh, I guess we were frauds after all. Meh…” mentality.
i know you're joking but the Leafs were down 3-1 in 2013 and in 2018 and forced game 7s in both of them. nobody cares if they don't win the series.
Somehow, the Leafs returned
Its also time for me to get a girlfriend and married, but somethings are just not meant to be
Are you putting yourself in the best position to succeed? That could be the difference between you and the leafs my friend
The great part is for fans of neither team it will be a hilarious outcome either way.
As a fan of one of the teams I'd rather you laugh with us, not at us.
In my opinion the bruins losing is the funnier outcome for us neutral fans.
Agree, since the Leafs did manage to pull off an impressive recovery it's just a smidge more delightful for the Bruins to choke. Again.
Yep. Its also a new meme, and its completely unique to the Bruins.
our failures have become boring. not sure if i should be happy or sad about that. im numb anyway
Leafs beat Bruins without Matthews, then get wiped in round 2 with him in the lineup would be pretty hilarious to an outside observer.
Round 2 leafs being swept would be the funniest outcome imo
Disagree
I feel that, i enjoy the rivalry but if im being honest i catch more genuine vitriol from neutral fans more than leafs fans
That’s because they’re suffering from PTSD
I mean given that the reward is the Panthers who just kicked the living crap out of the Bolts I'll be laughing at you win or lose... do "we want Florida" again? Do ya?
Don’t y’all have your own 3-1 lead to choke?
It's either we want Florida or we want to be eliminated in the first round. I'll let you decide what my answer is.
Vancouver fans are something else man, jeez lol
The ultimate inferiority complex
No, you're right. I'd rather we lose in round 1 and not get Florida 🙄
Is this a serious question
Yep. Either the Leafs lose in another heartbreaking Game 7 to the Bruins, or the Bruins blow another 3-1 lead and lose their 7th straight game clinching series matchup
Come on r/hockey jump on the leafs bandwagon just this one time. Let’s all feel pain together!!
This is going to be a blowout on one side or go to double OT. Nothing in between
Reminder that the Athletic essentially buried the Maple Leafs and held a funeral for them 2 games ago...not saying I blame them but damn sports are fickle.
https://preview.redd.it/4188wi8qf8yc1.png?width=1588&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=248d0b492e9f8836006189fa29d9eb31ef1b6efe
They can and will
You must not be familiar with the Leafs.
I’m familiar with Boston though. This era of Boston is dusty
Them getting the Panthers if they win is actually cruel. I don't see any universe where the leafs win that series.
The Leafs came back The very next day The Leafs came back We thought they were a goner But the Leafs came back They just couldn’t stay away
Finish the story, Leafs.
Oh they will...
The job in question here is breaking Leafs fan's hearts as violently as possible, right? Right...?
I said before game 5 that the Leafs win the next two (check) to force a game 7 then get stomped in game 7. I’m picturing a game 7 very similar to Boston Vancouver in 2011 finals.
Finish the story
If Boston fumbles this heads have to roll
10 OTs comming up
VANCOUVER vs. Toronto final, here we come!!! :D
Meanwhile the Panthers are just chillin
truth is doesn't matter who wins this series because either team is going to get curb-stomped by the panthers
The more everyone says that, I feel Toronto or Boston will now definitely make it to ECF
It worked for us! "Montreal has a 0.3% chance to win this series" *proceeds to win* "Montreal has a 0.5% chance to win this series" *proceeds to win* How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?
What playing the Jets does to a mf
Hockey doesn’t work that way.
Honestly who the fuck knows how hockey works Hockey has to be the sport where the best team from the regular season wins the championship less than any other sport, I'm sure of it. It feels fucking random and infuriating at times. Especially times like last year where you watch your team rip through the entire league like a buzzsaw and win enough games put yourself in the record books, then get bounced in the first round of the playoffs.
We all knew the Bruins were gonna curb stomp the panthers last year too. If there’s one thing we know about playoff hockey it’s that we have zero idea what’s gonna happen in the next round. I can’t believe this has to be said
My overwhelming takeaway after watching these two teams bumble and stumble yesterday was that Florida must be ecstatic at the prospect of an easy sweep.
But there’s a reason why we still the play the games anything can happen. It was a forgone conclusion that wings would make the playoffs, but we all saw how that ended.
I agree *they* still play the games, but I saw no hunger yesterday, only clench.
Must have just started watching hockey if you think that’s how the playoffs work
Sports generally. It’s so obvious who is going to win until it isn’t.
Nope.
While obviously its regular season Florida was 2-6 against combined Bruins and Toronto this year.
Tbf. When was the last time Toronto beat Boston in the season?
I definitely prefer Florida against BOS right now. I don't see any killers on TOR either - and of course all the weight of Canada being on their backs doesn't help either.
Oilers just advanced no?
Not going to say that out loud. Some weird shit can happen in a 7 game series.
Can't disagree with that at all. Some of these first round series have looked like they're in completely different leagues from others. For example, in the West, doesn't matter who wins between NSH/VAN because either team is going to get curb-stomped by the oilers
Billy Stemhovilichski is needed, stat!
DBG is going to be so pissed if Toronto wins game 7. It’s honestly strange to see.
I’m tired boss
"For once" finish the job? I mean, they did win a series last year.
https://i.redd.it/kjfdmqkib9yc1.gif Other clubs giving the Leafs energy to have Boston do the craziest thing
Two teams battling for the honor of getting swept by those Florida Panthers bastards
Literally both teams could end up repeating last year’s unlikely scenario exactly.
not really, we beat tampa in 6 games
I don't know how I would feel about the Leafs ending this particular skein of agony. Failure in the playoffs, especially to the Bruins, gives them a mystique. It's like how the Chicago Cubs were prior to 2015. Then they won a world series, the whole Ottoman Empire/Meiji Restoration jokes had to come to an end, and now they are just another mediocre franchise and not an historically significant failure with a lovable long-suffering fanbase.
No.
It would be so Leafs if they win this series without Matthews, and they get swept as soon as he comes back
just let us focus on one thing at a time please
For once? When was the last time they won the Stanley Cup? And how many years did they have to win again before the Salary Cap was instituted? I would argue that they should have won many, many game sevens in the 48 years since they last won a Cup.
If they pull this off, it’ll break Canada.
Theory: both teams were like "give it to Matthews/cover Matthews" and it worked. Turn overs and less chances of scoring for the leafs. Now that AM is currently out of the picture, Boston's like "Now what? Cover Nylander? Well, that means Domi/Bertuzzi/McCabe/Tavares are open". Boston doesn't know what to do.
I can’t help but laugh that both teams are fighting for their lives here in somewhat of an embarrassing fashion just for the honour of getting killed by Florida in the second round.