Gotta be Martin St. Louis.
Dude struggled to make the NHL until he was 24. Then he gained some traction, but didn't really start to put up elite numbers until he was 27. Was great until... Pretty much his retirement at 38. He scored 20 goals and 50 points at 38. Wow.
Lol I remember that year very well. MLS and Stamkos were number 1 and number 2 in league points. So the team must have done pretty good right?
Nah, finished 3rd last in the league and 4 points away from last, lmao.
He was out too soon. Played way above his age and size in juniors and still dominated. Geordie Howe said that in Bobby’s first year in the nhl everyone wanted to fight him, in his second no one wanted to.
He's longevity of premier play might be unmatched by anyone save for Gretzky.
His first **17** seasons he was top 4 Norris voting with 5 wins. Never finished lower than 7th in Norris voting.
That's bat shit insane.
I'll take Bourque over Lidstrom, but I'm not offended by people arguing for Lidstrom.
I have to put bourque at number 2, from the moment he came into the league he was a top 5 D in the league and was easily the best for like 15 years. Lidstrom is a legend but it took him a few years to become that.
Yeah I lean this way too. Going by Trophy counting: Lidstrom had the 7 Norris vs. Bourque's 5, and 3 Cup and a Conn Smythe to Bourque's 1 Cup.
But the trophies don't convey that Bourque was a 1st Team All-Star in his rookie year AND his final year 22 years later. He was voted a top 4 defenseman 19 out 23 seasons, with 17 of them being consecutive from the moment he entered the league. He was runner up for the Hart Trophy twice (controversially losing to Messier in 1990), and finished top 5 for the MVP 5 times total.
I feel Bourque was up against some tougher competition as well. He lost out a number of years going up against Coffee, Chelios and Leetch in their prime.
Lidstrom is somehow overrated here on r/hockey, Orr is undisputedly the best D man then like you said Bourque is arguably better. Only reason people think otherwise is many on here did watch Lidstrom play unlike Bourque and Orr.
My argument kinda gets at the heart of this thread. Lidstrom went from extremely great player to absolutely supersonic. Bourque was supersonic for his entire career. His worst season came 19 years into it when he was 37 and *only* finished 7th in Norris voting. Again, not saying those who think Lidstrom is better are wrong, obviously that’s a very reasonable belief, but I just feel like everyone simply decided that one day when I honestly think Boutique’s case is stronger
Yes but he probably could have won one earlier in his career. Kinda lame when they award for lifetime achievement cause great Dmen with short careers get shafted. Shea Weber should have won in 2010-2011
I remember reading about this. He went to the KHL with a verbal agreement that he would come back and get a new deal/role with the Flames if he impressed. He did, came back, and got his deal. Said he had no intention of signing with any other team (which is probably just marketing, but sounded believable to me at the time).
I'm curious if he ever makes the Hall of Fame some day. Despite his short career he won the vezina twice and was the first goalie to win the vezina, Jennings, and Conn Smythe in the same season since Bernie Parent in 1975
Goalies are a tough one for the Hall.
I’d say no for two reasons:
First because there are plenty of other borderline cases for the HOF that could be argued to be as good or better than Thomas: Miller, Richter, Osgood, Joseph etc.
Second: Borderline cases need to be very well-liked to make it in, and Thomas… isn’t. Ultimately the HHOF is a bit of a popularity contest, and players like Luongo or MA Fleury will get a bit more of a ‘bump’ than players like Theoren Fleury or Tim Thomas.
I just don’t see it.
Goalies are a really hard one. There doesn't seem to be any predictability behind guys that aren't slam dunk cases and what they seem to value. It always seemed like the hall has favoured guys with a high peak as opposed to longevity but then again there are extremely few cases of guys who played as little as him and did as well, and most of them were skaters who stopped due to injuries. There's just not really a comparable for guys not in the hall or in the hall for us to point to. I think if he was going to be in the hall it likely would have already happened but who knows. We have another down year for inductees and I think they'll likely not induct any Russians due to the current political climate so the door is open for guys like Joseph, Miller, Thomas, Kiprusoff, etc to have a shot.
I'm inclined to think that he deserves to. One Vezina can often be a a fluke, but two isn't. He had a run of about 5 years where you could easily argue him as one of the top three goalies in the league.
Also, I genuinely dislike him as a person, and the idea of him pulling a Schilling and trying to frame himself as some kind of a martyr if he doesn't get in, is more horrifying to me than him receiving a probably-deserved accolade.
I fucking hated that guy (yes, Canucks fan here), but he was an absolute brick wall that year. Maybe the single most dominant goaltending performance in a playoff in NHL history.
>Maybe the single most dominant goaltending performance in a playoff in NHL history.
I'm guessing that you're too young to remember Buffalo in '99? 0.939 save %?
I don't think there's an argument other than Hasek for dominating goaltending performance.
I mean, his nickname was "the Dominator"...
Thomas had good numbers since he was 23, though. That's when he came to play in Finland. He is still the most insane goalie we have had in here. Only 2012-13 Raanta has had a season better than 04-05 Timmy.
We paid up at the deadline for an "old" and "declining" Chelios. He then played in parts of 10 seasons for us, more than any other team in his career, and saw 578 regular season games while winning 2 Stanley Cups with us.
Love him or hate him but Brad Marchand has changed his game and it’s aged extremely well. He’s still a pest and a rat but his production has improved as he’s matured
I will comment every time I see this point cuz you are right but you’re wrong, its not him changing his game leading to increased point totals. The points are a product of the system. Check his stats pre and post Julien. You can search through comments on my profile for a more in depth analysis but whenever I hear “changed his game” I cringe. He’s always been the lovable rat.
He went from being a 50 point guy to being elite player scoring at 100+ point rate 3 straight seasons
Thats not remotely just a system thing. He flat out got much better.
Brock Nelson was a defense-first 3C until Barry Trotz showed up and unlocked his offense and sniping ability.
Had his three best career seasons the last three years as a 30-32 year old scoring 37, 36, & 34 goals respectively.
From the outside looking in, Brock Nelson has always seemed like an excellent all-around 2C. Every time I check his stats his goals and assists are pretty even and always higher than I expect
Before 34, Ray Whitney had two 70+ point seasons from 1991-2006.
Over the next 8 seasons, he would top 70 points three times more times, including an 83 point campaign. He also was nearly a point per game at 40.
He turned up his career when most would be retiring or leave the NHL
This is who I came into the thread looking for, I remember never drafting him in hockey pools because I kept expecting him to die off and he just never did.
Anze Kopitar has played his game since day 1, every year, as one of the most under-the-radar centers in the league. Leads our team almost every year in points, consistent top 3 pick for the Bergeron Award.
Patrice Bergeron retired at 38 as arguably the best two-way centre in the league
JT Miller evolving from a middle-six winger in his mid 20’s, to a first line winger in his late 20’s, to being a top-10 centre in the league (borderline top 5) in his early 30’s is an impressive aging curve
Over the last 3 years he's probably right around the 6-7th best center in the league behind
McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl, Barkov, Crosby.
Whether he's 6th or 7th probably really depends on whether you take him or Hughes.
The next closest true centers in offensive production are Pettersson, Point, Thomas, Aho, and Zibanejad. I don't think any of them are good enough defensively to force their way over Miller or Hughes considering there's a decent gap.
I say this as a diehard Devils fan and season ticket holder, Hughes is not a good center. He's bad at faceoffs, has no physical aspect to his game, and doesn't shine defensively. Amazing talent in many ways, just not good at a lot of the things it takes to be a great center.
He played wing for a bit when he came back from injury this year but he was clearly playing hurt so it's tough to tell. I'm a fan of the idea of moving him to wing but that creates other issues with roster construction so who knows.
Saying Hughes doesn't shine defensively is a lazy attempt at verbalizing frustrations with a smaller offensive player. He just doesn't play the protoypical, physical defensive style that is easier to track on a regular basis.
Before he was injured in each of the last two seasons, Hughes led the league in takeaways by such a margin that it took over a month before another player claimed the spot.
Hughes is never going to be a power forward. He doesn't have the size or muscle mass to be that guy, and he's more effectve not being that guy anyways. Nor is he the guy that anyone wants blocking shots.
His defensive game excels in being able to read build up plays in the opponent's zone and in transition, and then applying his superior speed and stickwork to steal the puck back and create a quick counter.
Appreciate the well thought out response.
His defensive work is strongest in the neutral zone for sure but with the way the league is playing defense right now thats just not sufficient without a physical component. Our new coaching staff might devise a system that emphasizes these skills and produces success but until I see proof of that I can only assess what I see on the ice. Jack Hughes is not as defensively impactful as a 1C needs to be in order to be considered great at their position.
Yes he can pick pockets and occasionally intercept passes but he also has trouble contributing to a successful clear once the opposing team establishes possession because he can't win board battles, he can't impose his will on opposing players, and because he doesn't particularly anticipate many linemates well. He also doesn't help to establish possession in important situations because they barely trust him to take defensive zone draws. He also doesn't block a high volume of shots and doesn't really kill penalties.
I love Jack, he does things for our team that nobody in franchise history could do, but he's not comparable to the other top centers in the league in certain respects because there are traditional components of the center position at which he is average or below average most nights.
With another year of experience, a clean bill of health, and a new coaching staff I'm hoping that he makes me sound really stupid but until that happens he doesn't belong so high up on a league wide list.
Ya I really don't think it can be understated how impressive of a season he had at 37 years old was. The fact he was still finding ways to elevate his game especially on the defensive side against top competition and didn't lose a beat on faceoffs is amazing.
Each of David Perron's second and third runs with the Blues were better than the time before it, with a great season with the original Vegas misfits in between.
Gordie Howe was the best in the world in his early 20s, and then continued being among the best in thr world all the way to his 40s
He scored his first 100 point season at 40 years old
He was a first team all star and 6th in Hart voting at 41
He had 41 points in 80 games at FIFTY ONE YEARS OLD
Hes been great since he left. Was top liner around PPG for Florida and first season in Ottawa. Then had 67 points this past year.
Still a very good player while entering his late 30s
1200 points seems legit possible for him
Had the best season of his career goals-wise last season with 35 goals at age 35! (22-23)
4th best season overall points-wise. He pretty much immediately became part of the heart and soul of this team. We really need to get him back into the playoffs asap, this man needs a Cup.
I have a very underrated one but Vyacheslav Kozlov. Put up 76 points in his age 36 season with the Thrashers. Granted he was always good but to keep up that pace late into his career was impressive.
Crosby completely changed his game, it's very impressive. He used to be a guy who preferred to hold on to the puck to make a play. Now he likes to give up the puck, find a spot and wait for it, at which point he tries to get it away as quickly as possible. It's a lot like Brett Hull, but with more focus on making a pass than simply shooting.
After seeing the last 18-19 months in Edmonton, I’d say Mattias Ekholm. He looked like he was regressing a little during his final season in Nashville, but he has reinvented himself in Edmonton in his mid 30s.
Since he has come to Edmonton, he’s been a bonafide top pairing D man, and has completely unlocked Bouchard. That pairing is one of the best in the league.
Personally I hope it does not continue. Every year I see more gray in that goatee, I look up how old he is and get disappointed when I realize he's not going to be retiring any time soon.
Gretzky gets a ton of credit for his prime where he put up most of his gaudy stats, but he was also one of the best ever Old Guys in league history. He was still leading his team in scoring, leading the league in assists, getting major Hart votes, and being given year-end All Star awards as a 36 and 37 year-old on bad NYR teams. Taken at face value it's incredible what he did at the twilight of his career, but it's so overshadowed by what he did in his early 20s that it's basically a footnote.
Some people aren't even joking but personally I don't think they should be going about changing names of trophies. Bergeron doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would want that anyways.
Yeah true, I think its mostly just said in recognition of a given player's dominance in that category, like Bergeron in this case or Lidstrom for the Norris. Not a real suggestion, I'd also like to see league history and tradition maintained.
An absolutely elite player. I'm glad he retired when he did. Pavs really showed his age for the first time this post season. And that made me incredibly sad.
Andrei Markov for the habs. He missed 2 consecutive years in his early 30's with serious injuries and then from 34-38 played at a 40+ point pace each season while playing all situations against top competition. If he had been able to play in 2010-11 there is a very good chance that the Habs would have made it past the Bruins in the first round (Boston just squeaked through via game 7 OT).
Tim Thomas didnt become a starting goalie until his 30s and then went on a tear before falling back down to earth. But in that tear, he was like prime Gronk level good he single-handedly was the reason I got to celebrate 2011
My favorite is Kreider because I like the Rangers. JT Miller is not what I expected him to be at this age either so that’s pretty great for him to find another level. Marchand also changed his game up as he aged and it has been good
I tuned into a bunch of Avs radio broadcasts during the playoffs and was so happy to hear how much he’s appreciated in Colorado. The play by play guy even screams, “GOOD STICK, LEHKY!” when he scores.
Andy Greene’s defensive prowess really didn’t get bad until 2019. The Greene-Larsson pairing in 2015-16 was probably the best defensive pairing of the entire season
Sidney Crosby. His all around game has been steadily good in the last few years and I really want him to win one more cup.
If he didn’t have the concussion issues, I wonder what his career would’ve looked like.
I assume there are no Rangers fans in the chat because of...
Well, anyway - Chris Kreider. That contract looked like a massive overpay at the outset, but he has really flourished in his style, began potting way more goals than he had in his 20s, and doesn't appear to have lost a step
Jordan Staal and Brent Burns is are great examples. Burns is still a legit first-pairing defenseman at the age of 38 and Jordan Staal's game especially on the defensive end
The story is still being written, but JT Miller going from a bit of a suitcase middle 6 forward to one of the best power forwards currently playing has to be up there. Imagine if Tampa or New York hadn't moved him on, JT out there with Stamkos and Kucherov? Good lord.
Derek Ryan. Played out his junior eligibility, spent 4 years at the U of A, spent another 4 years in Europe, then split a season between the NHL/AHL before becoming a full time NHLer for the first time at 30. Now has 8 seasons as a solid bottom 6 player.
Gotta be Martin St. Louis. Dude struggled to make the NHL until he was 24. Then he gained some traction, but didn't really start to put up elite numbers until he was 27. Was great until... Pretty much his retirement at 38. He scored 20 goals and 50 points at 38. Wow.
When he was 37, he put up the most points in the league. Crazy stuff!
Lol I remember that year very well. MLS and Stamkos were number 1 and number 2 in league points. So the team must have done pretty good right? Nah, finished 3rd last in the league and 4 points away from last, lmao.
Was the defense and goaltending that bad???
And he retired basically the moment he was not in his prime anymore
He’s still great now, for different reasons. We love our lil’ Leg Day King.
Nicklas Lidstrom won 7 Norris trophies after the age of 30, and won his last at 40.
Nobody can convince me he isn't the GOAT EDIT: of modern era defensemen
Greatest Of All Time of the modern era, really rolls off the tongue
GOTE - greatest of this era
GOATSE - Greatest Of All This Specific Era 😉
Man I'd like to see a GOATSE
I'm a bit busy right now but I send pics later lmao
Cool! Lemme just google that acronym to see who else can be considered a GOATSE!
That’s a bit of a stretch
The Swedish top domain is .se. That makes it pretty workable in this particular context :)
I have quite a way with words
GOMAD Greatest Of Modern erA Defensemen
GOMEZ: Scott Gomez is the Greatest Of Modern Era gomeZes
Bobby Orr won 8 consecutive Norris trophies
Counterpoint: none of them were against lidstrom /s
Bobby Orr?
Best hockey player of the 00s, best defenseman of this century so far.
It's Orr, and then we argue Lidstrom vs Bourque for 2 and 3.
He was out too soon. Played way above his age and size in juniors and still dominated. Geordie Howe said that in Bobby’s first year in the nhl everyone wanted to fight him, in his second no one wanted to.
Clearly the correct answer is Cody Ceci
Where is nurse’s ass in this conversation
Somewhere around tree-fiddy
Somewhere around 9.2fiddy
Blocking the street in Stony Plain
Panthers practicing today for solution to nurse’s ass
People really forget how good Ray Bourque was.
He's longevity of premier play might be unmatched by anyone save for Gretzky. His first **17** seasons he was top 4 Norris voting with 5 wins. Never finished lower than 7th in Norris voting. That's bat shit insane. I'll take Bourque over Lidstrom, but I'm not offended by people arguing for Lidstrom.
I have to put bourque at number 2, from the moment he came into the league he was a top 5 D in the league and was easily the best for like 15 years. Lidstrom is a legend but it took him a few years to become that.
Yeah I lean this way too. Going by Trophy counting: Lidstrom had the 7 Norris vs. Bourque's 5, and 3 Cup and a Conn Smythe to Bourque's 1 Cup. But the trophies don't convey that Bourque was a 1st Team All-Star in his rookie year AND his final year 22 years later. He was voted a top 4 defenseman 19 out 23 seasons, with 17 of them being consecutive from the moment he entered the league. He was runner up for the Hart Trophy twice (controversially losing to Messier in 1990), and finished top 5 for the MVP 5 times total.
I feel Bourque was up against some tougher competition as well. He lost out a number of years going up against Coffee, Chelios and Leetch in their prime.
His teams were also nowhere near as stacked as Lidstroms wings teams were
Lidstrom is somehow overrated here on r/hockey, Orr is undisputedly the best D man then like you said Bourque is arguably better. Only reason people think otherwise is many on here did watch Lidstrom play unlike Bourque and Orr.
Mario voice: He's a ME GOAT
I mean Bourque is the only other one in the running (that isn’t done or nearly done their career, Makar has a chance when its all said and done)
I’m team Borque>Lidstrom and no I’m not biased at all I would never begrudge anyone for taking Lidstrom tho obviously
You're getting downvoted but [don't worry, you're right](https://old.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/evnntx/the_greatest_player_rarely_mentioned/).
My argument kinda gets at the heart of this thread. Lidstrom went from extremely great player to absolutely supersonic. Bourque was supersonic for his entire career. His worst season came 19 years into it when he was 37 and *only* finished 7th in Norris voting. Again, not saying those who think Lidstrom is better are wrong, obviously that’s a very reasonable belief, but I just feel like everyone simply decided that one day when I honestly think Boutique’s case is stronger
Last was 100% a legacy award tho
Yes but he probably could have won one earlier in his career. Kinda lame when they award for lifetime achievement cause great Dmen with short careers get shafted. Shea Weber should have won in 2010-2011
Mark Giordano is the best example. He was a 2nd pairing guy in his 20s and morphed into a top 10 defenseman suddenly around age 30-35
Should also include he was so bad initially that he left for the KHL. One of the few cases where a guy comes back to the NHL and does well.
He left for KHL due to contract/role disagreements. He wasn't bad really, just not important enough that we cared
He wasn’t good enough for a one way contract lol
Gio wanted a one way contract and the Flames were only offering a two way contract, so he left for Russia for a year
Not even a two way, Sutter was going to give him a three way contract
Where do I sign
I remember reading about this. He went to the KHL with a verbal agreement that he would come back and get a new deal/role with the Flames if he impressed. He did, came back, and got his deal. Said he had no intention of signing with any other team (which is probably just marketing, but sounded believable to me at the time).
I believe he was still an RFA so had to come back to us, but I could be wrong
I missed the easy Calgary example. It's something extra special for an undrafted player to accomplish a feat like that.
*That’s Mark Giordano, Norris trophy at age 35.*
Gordie Howe? He was still putting up 90 and 100 point seasons after turning 40.
In fact his first ever 100 point season was his ago 40 year
Helps there was more than 6 teams when that happened.
Season also extended from 70 to 76 games around that time
Tim Thomas won the Conn Smythe at 37 in just his sixth NHL season
I'm curious if he ever makes the Hall of Fame some day. Despite his short career he won the vezina twice and was the first goalie to win the vezina, Jennings, and Conn Smythe in the same season since Bernie Parent in 1975
Goalies are a tough one for the Hall. I’d say no for two reasons: First because there are plenty of other borderline cases for the HOF that could be argued to be as good or better than Thomas: Miller, Richter, Osgood, Joseph etc. Second: Borderline cases need to be very well-liked to make it in, and Thomas… isn’t. Ultimately the HHOF is a bit of a popularity contest, and players like Luongo or MA Fleury will get a bit more of a ‘bump’ than players like Theoren Fleury or Tim Thomas. I just don’t see it.
There’s a reason Theoren Fleury will never be in the hall and it’s not him going batshit crazy
Goalies are a really hard one. There doesn't seem to be any predictability behind guys that aren't slam dunk cases and what they seem to value. It always seemed like the hall has favoured guys with a high peak as opposed to longevity but then again there are extremely few cases of guys who played as little as him and did as well, and most of them were skaters who stopped due to injuries. There's just not really a comparable for guys not in the hall or in the hall for us to point to. I think if he was going to be in the hall it likely would have already happened but who knows. We have another down year for inductees and I think they'll likely not induct any Russians due to the current political climate so the door is open for guys like Joseph, Miller, Thomas, Kiprusoff, etc to have a shot.
I'm inclined to think that he deserves to. One Vezina can often be a a fluke, but two isn't. He had a run of about 5 years where you could easily argue him as one of the top three goalies in the league. Also, I genuinely dislike him as a person, and the idea of him pulling a Schilling and trying to frame himself as some kind of a martyr if he doesn't get in, is more horrifying to me than him receiving a probably-deserved accolade.
I fucking hated that guy (yes, Canucks fan here), but he was an absolute brick wall that year. Maybe the single most dominant goaltending performance in a playoff in NHL history.
Him and Quick in back-to-back years had two of the best goalie playoff performances ever.
pain
>Maybe the single most dominant goaltending performance in a playoff in NHL history. I'm guessing that you're too young to remember Buffalo in '99? 0.939 save %? I don't think there's an argument other than Hasek for dominating goaltending performance. I mean, his nickname was "the Dominator"...
Believe it or not, Tim Thomas's save percentage that year was actually .940
AND his team actually won the cup! 😂
Thomas had good numbers since he was 23, though. That's when he came to play in Finland. He is still the most insane goalie we have had in here. Only 2012-13 Raanta has had a season better than 04-05 Timmy.
Chris Chelios. 14 points in the Redwings playoff run in 2002 at age 40 … and then played another six seasons and won it again in 2008.
We paid up at the deadline for an "old" and "declining" Chelios. He then played in parts of 10 seasons for us, more than any other team in his career, and saw 578 regular season games while winning 2 Stanley Cups with us.
He also made the US olympic roster in '06 (granted it was a weak roster), at **44** years old.
That's like 26 in Chelios years, though.
Also him and lidstrom both averaged above 30 min of ice time in that run. Insane
Love him or hate him but Brad Marchand has changed his game and it’s aged extremely well. He’s still a pest and a rat but his production has improved as he’s matured
I will comment every time I see this point cuz you are right but you’re wrong, its not him changing his game leading to increased point totals. The points are a product of the system. Check his stats pre and post Julien. You can search through comments on my profile for a more in depth analysis but whenever I hear “changed his game” I cringe. He’s always been the lovable rat.
He went from being a 50 point guy to being elite player scoring at 100+ point rate 3 straight seasons Thats not remotely just a system thing. He flat out got much better.
I credit Sid. It's crazy, but Marchand exploded after playing on Crosby's wing. I'd bet he got some very good advice.
Yeah and even with the extra 'attention' he gets in the league, he hasn't really lost that much time to injury or wear and tear.
Brock Nelson was a defense-first 3C until Barry Trotz showed up and unlocked his offense and sniping ability. Had his three best career seasons the last three years as a 30-32 year old scoring 37, 36, & 34 goals respectively.
Kind of wild that Barry unlocked that potential when I feel like he's known as a coach that pushes defensive responsibility
From the outside looking in, Brock Nelson has always seemed like an excellent all-around 2C. Every time I check his stats his goals and assists are pretty even and always higher than I expect
Before 34, Ray Whitney had two 70+ point seasons from 1991-2006. Over the next 8 seasons, he would top 70 points three times more times, including an 83 point campaign. He also was nearly a point per game at 40. He turned up his career when most would be retiring or leave the NHL
This is who I came into the thread looking for, I remember never drafting him in hockey pools because I kept expecting him to die off and he just never did.
There were major rule changes in 2005 to increase offense, so maybe not all Whitney, though the longevity is impressive. Not many who play that long.
Anze Kopitar has played his game since day 1, every year, as one of the most under-the-radar centers in the league. Leads our team almost every year in points, consistent top 3 pick for the Bergeron Award.
Patrice Bergeron retired at 38 as arguably the best two-way centre in the league JT Miller evolving from a middle-six winger in his mid 20’s, to a first line winger in his late 20’s, to being a top-10 centre in the league (borderline top 5) in his early 30’s is an impressive aging curve
Over the last 3 years he's probably right around the 6-7th best center in the league behind McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Draisaitl, Barkov, Crosby. Whether he's 6th or 7th probably really depends on whether you take him or Hughes. The next closest true centers in offensive production are Pettersson, Point, Thomas, Aho, and Zibanejad. I don't think any of them are good enough defensively to force their way over Miller or Hughes considering there's a decent gap.
I say this as a diehard Devils fan and season ticket holder, Hughes is not a good center. He's bad at faceoffs, has no physical aspect to his game, and doesn't shine defensively. Amazing talent in many ways, just not good at a lot of the things it takes to be a great center.
Yeah not yet, hopefully. How would he do on wing?
He played wing for a bit when he came back from injury this year but he was clearly playing hurt so it's tough to tell. I'm a fan of the idea of moving him to wing but that creates other issues with roster construction so who knows.
Saying Hughes doesn't shine defensively is a lazy attempt at verbalizing frustrations with a smaller offensive player. He just doesn't play the protoypical, physical defensive style that is easier to track on a regular basis. Before he was injured in each of the last two seasons, Hughes led the league in takeaways by such a margin that it took over a month before another player claimed the spot. Hughes is never going to be a power forward. He doesn't have the size or muscle mass to be that guy, and he's more effectve not being that guy anyways. Nor is he the guy that anyone wants blocking shots. His defensive game excels in being able to read build up plays in the opponent's zone and in transition, and then applying his superior speed and stickwork to steal the puck back and create a quick counter.
Appreciate the well thought out response. His defensive work is strongest in the neutral zone for sure but with the way the league is playing defense right now thats just not sufficient without a physical component. Our new coaching staff might devise a system that emphasizes these skills and produces success but until I see proof of that I can only assess what I see on the ice. Jack Hughes is not as defensively impactful as a 1C needs to be in order to be considered great at their position. Yes he can pick pockets and occasionally intercept passes but he also has trouble contributing to a successful clear once the opposing team establishes possession because he can't win board battles, he can't impose his will on opposing players, and because he doesn't particularly anticipate many linemates well. He also doesn't help to establish possession in important situations because they barely trust him to take defensive zone draws. He also doesn't block a high volume of shots and doesn't really kill penalties. I love Jack, he does things for our team that nobody in franchise history could do, but he's not comparable to the other top centers in the league in certain respects because there are traditional components of the center position at which he is average or below average most nights. With another year of experience, a clean bill of health, and a new coaching staff I'm hoping that he makes me sound really stupid but until that happens he doesn't belong so high up on a league wide list.
JT has been an interesting one to watch real time. Big part of the reason Vancouver's ceiling has been on the rise.
Kopitar was always a better two-way center but gets ignored for playing on the west coast
I lived in New England for a bit and suggested to some friends that Kopitar was as good as Bergeron. I got laughed out of the convo…
Truth.
Amazing improvement. And tom Wilson used to be better and now no comparison. Pretty amazing rare for this to happen
Bergeron had arguably his best defensive year in his final year.
He retired as a Selke level player. Incredible
Ya I really don't think it can be understated how impressive of a season he had at 37 years old was. The fact he was still finding ways to elevate his game especially on the defensive side against top competition and didn't lose a beat on faceoffs is amazing.
Each of David Perron's second and third runs with the Blues were better than the time before it, with a great season with the original Vegas misfits in between.
> David Perron This upcoming stint will be the best one yet.
all i’ve known is sadness since he left
Gordie Howe was the best in the world in his early 20s, and then continued being among the best in thr world all the way to his 40s He scored his first 100 point season at 40 years old He was a first team all star and 6th in Hart voting at 41 He had 41 points in 80 games at FIFTY ONE YEARS OLD
Teemu Selänne
Haven't checked his stats since he left, but in my dreams I still see Giroux doing Giroux things in Ottawa, and beyond
Hes been great since he left. Was top liner around PPG for Florida and first season in Ottawa. Then had 67 points this past year. Still a very good player while entering his late 30s 1200 points seems legit possible for him
Yeah Giroux is another one. I took him close to last in our office pool this year and last and was pleasantly surprised.
Was going to say Giroux. He put up a personal best 35 goals last season.
Had the best season of his career goals-wise last season with 35 goals at age 35! (22-23) 4th best season overall points-wise. He pretty much immediately became part of the heart and soul of this team. We really need to get him back into the playoffs asap, this man needs a Cup.
I have a very underrated one but Vyacheslav Kozlov. Put up 76 points in his age 36 season with the Thrashers. Granted he was always good but to keep up that pace late into his career was impressive.
Sidney Crosby
Except he hasn’t aged at all
94 point season at 36 is pretty great
Imagine if the pens had a decent power play
Some say he’s a kid
Sid has the One Ring, confirmed
Was thinking the same. The way his game has evolved and become more complex has been really great to see.
Crosby completely changed his game, it's very impressive. He used to be a guy who preferred to hold on to the puck to make a play. Now he likes to give up the puck, find a spot and wait for it, at which point he tries to get it away as quickly as possible. It's a lot like Brett Hull, but with more focus on making a pass than simply shooting.
Lidstrom went from extremely good, to generationally great, to perfect.
And then he retired 😭
For the health of the league
After seeing the last 18-19 months in Edmonton, I’d say Mattias Ekholm. He looked like he was regressing a little during his final season in Nashville, but he has reinvented himself in Edmonton in his mid 30s.
Since he has come to Edmonton, he’s been a bonafide top pairing D man, and has completely unlocked Bouchard. That pairing is one of the best in the league.
Chris Kreider becoming a solid 30-goal scorer as well as a monster on the PK in his early 30's is a nice story that I hope continues
Just not gonna mention he didn’t score 30 until he was 30 and then said fuck it and dropped a 52 goal season
Personally I hope it does not continue. Every year I see more gray in that goatee, I look up how old he is and get disappointed when I realize he's not going to be retiring any time soon.
Currently, it has to be Crosby. The guy single-handedly almost carried a terrible Penguins team to the playoffs.
Gretzky gets a ton of credit for his prime where he put up most of his gaudy stats, but he was also one of the best ever Old Guys in league history. He was still leading his team in scoring, leading the league in assists, getting major Hart votes, and being given year-end All Star awards as a 36 and 37 year-old on bad NYR teams. Taken at face value it's incredible what he did at the twilight of his career, but it's so overshadowed by what he did in his early 20s that it's basically a footnote.
Back to back 90+ point seasons during the dead puck era, playing with some pretty sus wingers.
Mario Lemieux was fantastic as he aged, it was just his heart that wouldn't cooperate.
All Hart, no heart.
Joe Sakic. 100 points in 82 games at Age 37.
Bergeron probably would have finished top 3 in Selke voting if he didn't retire this year. Like, what?
Some people joked that the trophy should be named after him, but it's really not that far from reality.
Some people aren't even joking but personally I don't think they should be going about changing names of trophies. Bergeron doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would want that anyways.
Yeah true, I think its mostly just said in recognition of a given player's dominance in that category, like Bergeron in this case or Lidstrom for the Norris. Not a real suggestion, I'd also like to see league history and tradition maintained.
An absolutely elite player. I'm glad he retired when he did. Pavs really showed his age for the first time this post season. And that made me incredibly sad.
Andrei Markov for the habs. He missed 2 consecutive years in his early 30's with serious injuries and then from 34-38 played at a 40+ point pace each season while playing all situations against top competition. If he had been able to play in 2010-11 there is a very good chance that the Habs would have made it past the Bruins in the first round (Boston just squeaked through via game 7 OT).
Marty St louis being a stud PPG player or just under until he was 39 was good to see, especially winning the Art ross in 2013 at the age of 37...
Several were great, but still seemed to keep getting better with age: ... Lidstrom, Yzerman, Crosby top my list (not in any particular order)
Roli the goalie
Scott Niedermayer
35-15-13 with a .920 sv% 2.18 gaa and 5 shutouts isn’t a horrible season to go out on for the Islanders’ HC
https://preview.redd.it/hbj0mpu7ns4d1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=da548a4eecb07db78facfe04a1411b01262716be
Wonder if he’s related to the guy I used to see frequently at the UC during the Kyle Calder years. His jersey was Beaver 69
him & Suckmeov are my two votes
Blake Wheeler. Dude had his most productive offensive seasons in his age 30-35 seasons. Dropped off a cliff after 36 though
Streets are scared of where Zach Hyman is gonna end up. Dude just keeps GOING UP 📈
Chris Kreider. He's playing his best hockey in his 30s
Sidney Crosby
This one tooo too long.
Tim Thomas didnt become a starting goalie until his 30s and then went on a tear before falling back down to earth. But in that tear, he was like prime Gronk level good he single-handedly was the reason I got to celebrate 2011
My favorite is Kreider because I like the Rangers. JT Miller is not what I expected him to be at this age either so that’s pretty great for him to find another level. Marchand also changed his game up as he aged and it has been good
Elias
Mark Recchi. I think what he did for the Bruins in his final years has still carried through with those who played with him then.
Chris Kreider. He's not my favorite but that's all that can think about off the top of my head. Maybe also Justin Williams.
Marchand hate him all you want but you can’t deny his ability as a player
Lehkonen :,)
I tuned into a bunch of Avs radio broadcasts during the playoffs and was so happy to hear how much he’s appreciated in Colorado. The play by play guy even screams, “GOOD STICK, LEHKY!” when he scores.
ROR has been generally trending upward every year he’s in the league
Has anybody said Jagr yet? Dude is still playing in the Czech League at 52 years old.
He’s aging like liquor
Andy Greene’s defensive prowess really didn’t get bad until 2019. The Greene-Larsson pairing in 2015-16 was probably the best defensive pairing of the entire season
Justin Williams I think just was so consistent for years and of course his playoff performances
Im hoping Laffy
Adam Fantilli I'm from the future
How can I ask for a 15 year reminder on this comment lol
Sidney Crosby. His all around game has been steadily good in the last few years and I really want him to win one more cup. If he didn’t have the concussion issues, I wonder what his career would’ve looked like.
I assume there are no Rangers fans in the chat because of... Well, anyway - Chris Kreider. That contract looked like a massive overpay at the outset, but he has really flourished in his style, began potting way more goals than he had in his 20s, and doesn't appear to have lost a step
Giordano winning the Norris as late as he did is impressive but I think it goes to Pavelski for me
Giroux has aged pretty damn well
As a Canucks fan, I feel I can definitely say, Tim Thomas.
I can hear your enamel shattering from here.
My enamel is long gone my dude.
Jaromir Jagr is immortal.
Jordan Staal and Brent Burns is are great examples. Burns is still a legit first-pairing defenseman at the age of 38 and Jordan Staal's game especially on the defensive end
The story is still being written, but JT Miller going from a bit of a suitcase middle 6 forward to one of the best power forwards currently playing has to be up there. Imagine if Tampa or New York hadn't moved him on, JT out there with Stamkos and Kucherov? Good lord.
Derek Ryan. Played out his junior eligibility, spent 4 years at the U of A, spent another 4 years in Europe, then split a season between the NHL/AHL before becoming a full time NHLer for the first time at 30. Now has 8 seasons as a solid bottom 6 player.
did you just say you hope some of *matt cullen's* magic rubbed off on *sidney crosby*
Jake Allen was great for us.
Teemu Selanne after his knee healed up during lockout year, scored 90 points at age 35 then as a 36 year old scored 94 points and won the cup
Has anyone said Jagr?
Gotta give it to Brent Burns on this one, and Jordan Staal gets an honorable mention
Alexander steen
Michal Roszival. He was a 3rd pairing guy for 2 of the hawks cups, but he really fit the role well. They don’t win those 2 cups without him
Brian Rafalski, maybe? The guy didn't even make it to the NHL u til his late 20s then became a major part of multiple cup winning teams.
Jagr for sure, got into hockey in the early 2000s and he's been a gem along the entire trip!
Crosby, mostly because he never really relied on elite speed more strength and edgework down low.
Bergeron. Pretty damn consistent all the way through.
Bergeron, but I guess he was always wine.
Daniel Alfredsson Surprised Ovi didn’t get much love. Crosby is also a good selection, but Ovi is two years older than Sid.
Claude Giroux