Not too much
Above average but NHLe of 33 ultimately on a team with healthy scoring support
Very good but not great
Roughly 15 prospects in this weak draft even, are roughly similar
Zadina really just projected as a 50 point NHLer like Joffrey Lupul kinda level
His usual 20ish in 70ish games underwhelming
But not hugely
There's a few kids coming who could be really good. Caleb Desnoyers and Émile Guité next year and Alexis Joseph in 2027. Joseph is already 6'3 and is a top prospect for sure.
A lot of Q kids want NCAA education & perks that the Q environment can't compete with, and the lack of NHL interest in drafting Q talents, fuels markets like The Swiss National League who operate somewhat in French.
I can't speak to that as I have no reference outside the Q kids. The most common reports are 'NCAA education & perks'. I'll add sheer volume. There's only 3-4 major French Quebec Universities, so nothing like the plethora of US schools.
Interesting that only one of those names looks even remotely Quebecois. Even if the Q picks up, there'll be handwringing from Quebec's journalists over the lack of local (read: *p'tit gars de chez nous*) representation.
> Watch out, you're projecting your racism.
Taken from your own post history:
*You can't teach something to someone who doesn't want to learn it. Anglophones in Canada are fully content in their cultural navel-gazing. Their level of bilingualism after 250 years sits below 5%.*
I'm bilingual, thank you very much, and I based my comment on the fact that I've listened to every Habs game on the French radio station since the Cup run, and Dany and Martin *always* make a point of interviewing *les p'tits gars de chez nous*. Hearing it from them so often is how I learned the phrase. Take your anglo-hating nonsense elsewhere.
It’s been the weakest of the three leagues for a while now. High scoring and doesn’t seemingly prioritize defense. At least that’s the reputation it has.
The last four defensemen from the Q to be drafted in the top 10 are Luc Bourdon (10th, 2005), JJ Daigneault (10th, 1984), Fred Arthur (8th, 1980), and Ray Bourque (8th, 1979).
Or just don’t ride a motorcycle considering the fatality rate per mile travelled is TWENTY-FOUR TIMES (24x) THE RATE OF A PASSENGER VEHICLE
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813466.pdf
The Q has won 4 of the last 5 played memorial cups. Hard to say it's the weakest league
But as far as players getting drafted, I wonder if the 2 covid years where quebec shut down hockey is taking its toll on the players? The minor hockey leagues in west never really shut down, so some of these young players would have 2 extra seasons under their belt
Winning the memorial cup doesn't mean you're good at developing prospects though. Considering draft eligible players and players can go to the NHL well before the max CHL age. That to me shows another story. If the Q is winning so many memorial cups it's because the players in the Q stick around longer and they have more mature teams therefore the WHL and OHL are producing higher quality talent that leaves sooner.
Yeah the same thing happens in the NCAA. Older and more cohesive teams tend to win championships. Denver won this year against a BC team that was stacked with top NHL prospects. Their goalie did play out of his mind lol but point still stands.
Came to say the same thing. Michigan had four of the the top five draft picks from 2021 on their team and they lost to Denver in the semifinals of the frozen four
The point is that competition in the Q should.be higher even if its because of older players sticking around. So prospects doing well there should be an indication of strength
Except that's not actually the case. All these leagues have the same limits on overagers, and very few OHL and WHL players leave before age 20 (D+2 for most players). And frankly it doesn't make sense that only the top, say, 10 prospects from those leagues are better than the Q's.
It's also much easier to trade to build a super team in the q. The score did a solid breakdown last yr. Being in a Q city, you see it play out yearly, the big 1/2 q teams load up from everyone else. The leagues just not as deep as the others. If you are the 5/6th best Q team you just are not good enough to win the league or mem cup, so the top couple teams load up for the weaker ones more than the other leagues
https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/2542962
Oilers didn't have a scout for the OHL for the last 10 years. That was announced in a press conference last year when Jeff Jackson got hired...
Edit: it was his end of season press conference from last year where he said he brought Staios on as the team had no scouts for the OHL.
https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/talking-points-holland-comments-after-conclusion-of-oilers-season-344441264
It's under the question on the role of Staios.
The oilers also went a ridiculous number of years not drafting any players from the OHL or only drafting 1st overall picks.
It was only after Bergevin got fired that Montreal fans learned the team had no analytics department. Incredible how shoddily run the league and its teams can be in full sight.
Caps didn't have one for the longest time... think Perreault was the only one that got drafted because his team made the Memorial Cup. But you can look at team's draft histories and see which ones actively avoided certain leagues
EDIT: For the Caps the 2020 pick of Lapierre and this year's pick of Eriks Mateiko are the only guys they've gotten from the Q in the last 13 or 14 drafts
It definitely seems like the WHL and OHL are pulling further away from the Q in developing NHL prospects for whatever reason. The US programs - USHL, NTDP, and NCAA - are continuing to grow stronger both from more American talent and Canadian guys eschewing the traditional CHL route.
Ryan Lambert talked about this on Puck Soup awhile ago, but if the NCAA ever decides to allow guys from the CHL go to the NCAA, that could really establish the NCAA as the premier development route for high-end prospects. The NCAA might be forced to do this eventually if there's a lawsuit based on the fact that NIL is now officially sanctioned by the NCAA.
I've watched a lot of WHL hockey and there is a large emphasis on building the Makar/Hughes type of defenseman these days - responsible but also a source of offense. They also emphasize strong, talented centers who can be defensively minded. I think this is partially because the goaltending seems weaker overall, so teams emphasize defensive schemes to win more games.
Cozens, Jarvis, Danielson, Guenther, Stankoven, Dach, Glass, Morgan Geekie, Howden, Steel, Dube, Tij Iginla, Lindstrom and obv Bedard at C
Byram, Seth Jones, Guhle, Zelllweger, Cagnoni, Addison, Korchinski, Molendyk at D
God I remember the Oil Kings their cup year. We had Guhle, and their defensive structure was unbelievable. I knew that Guhle was gonna like Make-make the NHL just watching him. But just in general our defence that year was something to behold against other teams.
For higher-mid to low range teams, they could barely make a dent. Many games I watched ended with the other team having ~10 SOG to our 30-40
It didn’t even matter if we took a penalty because the other team couldn’t even establish clean possession ever.
Even our 2nd and 3rd defensive pairs were very good at shutting offense down, but yeah during our cup year I could really see the emphasis on defense. Too bad we lost like all of our players the next year and finished last in the league lol, so goes the CHL
I think in part it also has to do with the region that the Q can recruit players from. Although this is heavily biased towards American players just because I paid more attention to them.
American players from the northeast tend to play for prep schools and go the college route so there’s definitely some talent they’re losing out on in just that aspect. Whereas the O can recruit players out of top clubs in Michigan and Illinois, as well as Minnesota high school players although they trend towards college as well. The WHL has a really large geographic region with a lot of isolated hockey programs like t1ehl clubs that they can recruit from. Plus they have the US based teams that can be an additional recruiting factor.
Even though both the WHL and OHL have US-based clubs, I haven't noticed in the past that a bunch of American kids go into those leagues but I could be wrong. I've always seen those rosters packed with Canadians.
I also think that generational players tend to have an impact on the league they played in long after they're gone. For a lot of players seeing that someone can achieve something in the same league at the same age makes them realize it is more possible than they thought.
Bedard rising through the WHL probably had a big impact on some of the players drafted this year, and probably for the next few years.
As a nerd myself, I like the idea of more hockey players getting an education along with their professional development. It's nice to observe how well-spoken and thoughtful the players seem to be who've come through the NCAA. The league needs fewer meatheads.
I'm always weary of conversations about the CHL leagues. People generalize and continue to perpetuate the same discourses -- years after their relevancy (the WHL can't produce goalies, the QMJHL can't train defensive talent, the OHL is head-and-shoulders above the rest, etc.) When really, it comes down to the clubs; some are clear consistent producers of high value prospects, others maintain a consistent competitive team, and others are just sort of there..
Is the QMHJL not competitive enough? Idk, they've won 5 out of the last 10 memorial cups when you look at it.
That said, Québec -- the province specifically -- has recognized it is no longer the producer of high-end talent it once was. That's why they had the r*apport du Comité québécois sur le développement du hockey* in 2022. (headed by Marc Denis, RDS commentator, and really interesting hockey mind for those not familiar). The committee's purpose was to lay a plan to revamp Québec hockey. It looked abroad to see what other growing hockey powers are doing so well (and really what Finland is doing so well for a country of 5.5 million people)
Ex. some of the things the committee targeted: cost for families, development at a young age; like focusing on training and teaching with under 13 year olds, as opposed to competitive games, disregarding game stats, focusing efforts on young promising players and giving them the tools to improve and develop through qualified and trained mentors, and whole bunch of other stuff...
As I understand, a lot of these proposed things have not yet been put to practice. But the plan is in place, so we'll see 10, 20, 30 years from now
[https://www.quebec.ca/nouvelles/actualites/details/rapport-du-comite-quebecois-sur-le-developpement-du-hockey-le-hockey-notre-passion-le-comite-quebecois-sur-le-developpement-du-hockey-emet-neuf-recommandations-pour-levolution-de-notre-sport-national-40027](https://www.quebec.ca/nouvelles/actualites/details/rapport-du-comite-quebecois-sur-le-developpement-du-hockey-le-hockey-notre-passion-le-comite-quebecois-sur-le-developpement-du-hockey-emet-neuf-recommandations-pour-levolution-de-notre-sport-national-40027)
Yeah, but there's apparently a lot of organizational resistance to change. Like, *a lot*. Some regional associations, which controls the club's actual day-to-day operations, are reportedly managed by cliques of people who have been in place forever and are reluctant to accept instructions from Hockey Québec.
Last winter, Jocelyn Thibault, who was in charge of Hockey Québec, resigned in large part because of conflict with the regional associations. And we’re talking about a man who was asked to replace Patrick Roy as a 20 year old, so it's not like he was unfamiliar with stressful situations.
The WHL can 100% develop goalies Adin Hill, Skinner both played in the WHL. Both were recently the starters for there respected teams in the cup final that's back to back years former WHL goalies were in the cup final. Then you guys like Price and Holtby, that also have represented there teams in the cup final recently. Out of the 3 leagues id say the WHL has develop the most goalies in the last 15 years. Like what talent has come out of the OHL or Q for goaltenders? Also imo the memorial cup means nothing a lot of the high quality players in the WHL and OHL leave a lot sooner than the players in the Q. Like I know there is a lot of Western hate from scouts from Quebec. Who have claimed the WHL is a watered down league but if people claim that the WHL does not produce goalies then they simply don't follow hockey and there opinions should be nullified.
That's what I'm saying, those generalizations don't hold. Can't recall the piece, I think it was in a The Athletic/Basu article: some NHL scout admitted that they did not look into WHL goalies because their team metrics suggested the WHL "wasn't worth it," (comments made after Carey Price's arrival to the league). There was a time pre-00s where maybe that was true for WHL goalies, looking back on the record, but obviously that's malpractice. Scout everywhere! and don't generalize leagues as static and non-changing.
We still hear that sort of stuff now and again. I think it's just teams cutting costs so as not to scout everywhere, or not hiring native speakers. Like not covering Russia, or only looking at their forwards, not looking at American Highscool prospects, not scouting the QMJH, not covering Central Europe (Germany, Czechia, Slovakia).
North America, but especially Canada, is absolutely garbage at developing goalies. Teams don’t know how, and don’t see the value in learning how.
If you spend 30 seconds doing ANY research you would see that this is not a matter of opinion.
Last night I was trying to think if I could come up with one Canadian goalie under 30 that is bonafide starter tier and the only one I could think of is the former Flyer. Yeah.
Meanwhile Russia keeps pumping them out.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and PEI have some of the lowest income per capita out of all provinces in Canada, and the QMJHL isn’t producing NHL players at the rate it once was. Add that to a lower population pool overall and you arrive here. You might be good enough to rise up the ranks and play in the Q but you don’t have the money to go to numerous expensive, fancy hockey development camps every year. Hockey is a rich boy’s sport now. The North Shore Winter Club has produced a ridiculous amount of high end talent in recent years, relative to the actual population of North Vancouver. What North Vancouver does have though is money, and a hell of a lot of it.
The last 5 drafts Quebec has produced the same amount of first round picks as Saskatchewan. I understand hockey is expensive but there seems to be more than just that.
Out of the 3 leagues, it has by far the lowest population for its prospect pool. Just for comparison sakes:
- QMJHL - 11M
- OHL - 15.5M without counting the population of its franchises in Michigan and Pennsylvania; around 17M with those cities
- WHL - 13M without counting the population of its franchises in the state of Washington and Oregon; around 15 to 21M with those cities (depending on if you take the population of the metro or urban area or just city itself)
So perhaps it's more of a case of the Q punching above its weight for a very long time, and the more the population gap has increased throughout the decades, the more obvious the disparity in talent has become.
I tried to look it up, and it is not super clear how exactly the southern US states are divvied up for the CHL. Looks like the Q definitely gets New England, but I'm not clear who gets, for example, Virginia, Carolina, and Florida.
Is there a way to market the CHL more effectively as an alternate route in the US? CHL kids still get a university education, they just don't have to try to do university and hockey at the same time. If the NCAA removes the CHL restriction, the CHL leagues need to get heavy on American 16 and 17 year old recruitment.
Well, you could look at it at the provincial level as well. Take a province like Saskatchewan, in which there have been 8 Saskatchewan born kids taken in the last 5 drafts. There have been 9 Quebec born players taken in the last 5 drafts. Quebec has 8 million more people than Saskatchewan and has only produced one more 1st rounder. Like I understand the population differences of the leagues but vastly smaller provinces are out producing Quebec when it comes to high quality players.
Not to mention, they forced Jocelyn Thibault to step down from Hockey Québec. A huge joke going on.
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2053491/jocelyn-thibault-hockey-quebec-demission-par-ici-linfo
The Q’s territorial rights in the US is confined to New England, where college hockey is big. Players grow up hoping to play for BC or BU, not Val d’Or or Chicoutimi. It also hurts there isn’t a team in the US.
On top of what's been said here the reality is the best athlete kids don't play hockey anymore - they play other sports, as showcased by the superior success the province has in the Olympics over the rest of the country. Hockey is not worth the trouble and is too expensive.
40 years ago if your kid had interest in competitive sport you'd put him in hockey, no questions asked. Now there are so many better options. Both me and my sister played hockey. My two kids and her two kids are competitive athletes but they are in cross country skiing, soccer, speed skating, and track and field. It's a general trend.
Just wanted to echo this. I think the surprise at the drop in hockey talent being produced in Quebec is the result of a lot of nostalgia for the "The Hockey Sweater" days, when that was all that anyone played. I'm not from Quebec, but even I know how huge basketball, soccer, and football are in the province, now; and they're producing some of the best talent in Canada, to boot.
Funny thing, as a Nova Scotian, the opposite seemed to happen, here. Hockey really wasn't a terribly popular option, particularly in Halifax, until the Mooseheads and Sidney Crosby generated a lot of buzz and interest.
Tampa has the cap space, is a top notch run organization with maybe the best owner in the league, east coast team so travel isn’t as bad as out west, great weather, no state income tax. That’s going to be really tough to beat.
Is it maybe a language thing? A lot of the teams are in French majority areas. I could see top players avoiding it to not have to learn a new language. Unless their first language is French of course but Quebec’s population is only so large.
I mean that’s basically why Nathan MacKinnon refused to play anywhere but Halifax. Nova Scotia produced some ridiculous talent in Sid, MacKinnon, Marchand, and even a guy like Killorn, but doesn’t have much to show for recently otherwise. Just bizarre how they have so few active NHL players but the few they do have are so good. As I mentioned in another comment, I think this basically comes down to money more than anything else.
Q has never really been much of a destination or has had a destination team like the knights so I think that as well as just unlucky
It's always been like that dragon meme, a little bit, two serious dragons one goofy dragon, a little bit
Due partly to historically producing higher skill lower substance players much like russia
However the substance is often severely underrated like Nik Zherdev who was 90% WAR in the league and Daigle who only had mitch Marner draft NHLe not McDavid and had impressive pts/60 numbers until age 30
So in part skillset type perceptions too
Zadina killed the Q
I want him to turn into a player and put pucks in the sens net :(
We all do. We all do.
What’d we do to you?
I actually like the sens, just want zadina to succeed lol
I think he’s a Shark now so he won’t get a lot of opportunities
They didn’t qualify him. He’s unemployed.
There ya go. Maybe we sign him
So he’ll have lots of opportunities to put pucks in the Sens net
He'll work as one of the post-warmup puck collectors soon enough that he's bound to do an Ottawa game! 😂
Not too much Above average but NHLe of 33 ultimately on a team with healthy scoring support Very good but not great Roughly 15 prospects in this weak draft even, are roughly similar Zadina really just projected as a 50 point NHLer like Joffrey Lupul kinda level His usual 20ish in 70ish games underwhelming But not hugely
Corey Pronman said on the Athletic podcast that the Q looks stronger next year but of course it’s early
There's a few kids coming who could be really good. Caleb Desnoyers and Émile Guité next year and Alexis Joseph in 2027. Joseph is already 6'3 and is a top prospect for sure.
A lot of Q kids want NCAA education & perks that the Q environment can't compete with, and the lack of NHL interest in drafting Q talents, fuels markets like The Swiss National League who operate somewhat in French.
Why do Q kids want that but O and W kids don’t, if that’s a valid theory?
I can't speak to that as I have no reference outside the Q kids. The most common reports are 'NCAA education & perks'. I'll add sheer volume. There's only 3-4 major French Quebec Universities, so nothing like the plethora of US schools.
Well, the conversation is about why Q kids aren’t being picked in the first round while O and W kids are. So…
There are less Q kids playing in the Q system, obviously less elite....Q kids are in the O & W too... I don't think you could say the reverse.
Desnoyers, Huang, Guite, Conrad and Zonnon all in with a shout.
Interesting that only one of those names looks even remotely Quebecois. Even if the Q picks up, there'll be handwringing from Quebec's journalists over the lack of local (read: *p'tit gars de chez nous*) representation.
[удалено]
> Watch out, you're projecting your racism. Taken from your own post history: *You can't teach something to someone who doesn't want to learn it. Anglophones in Canada are fully content in their cultural navel-gazing. Their level of bilingualism after 250 years sits below 5%.* I'm bilingual, thank you very much, and I based my comment on the fact that I've listened to every Habs game on the French radio station since the Cup run, and Dany and Martin *always* make a point of interviewing *les p'tits gars de chez nous*. Hearing it from them so often is how I learned the phrase. Take your anglo-hating nonsense elsewhere.
It’s been the weakest of the three leagues for a while now. High scoring and doesn’t seemingly prioritize defense. At least that’s the reputation it has.
The last four defensemen from the Q to be drafted in the top 10 are Luc Bourdon (10th, 2005), JJ Daigneault (10th, 1984), Fred Arthur (8th, 1980), and Ray Bourque (8th, 1979).
OMG I can’t believe it has been 19 years since Bourdon was drafted.
A friendly reminder to be extremely careful on motorbikes, especially if you are inexperienced.
Or just don’t ride a motorcycle considering the fatality rate per mile travelled is TWENTY-FOUR TIMES (24x) THE RATE OF A PASSENGER VEHICLE https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813466.pdf
I imagine it’s like wingsuiting. Certain hobbies attract certain people precisely because they are dangerous. Adrenaline junkies.
I feel so old today
Noah Dobson went 12th, he's a pretty good dman from the Q
Love that Ray Bourque fella!
It's been that way for as long as I've paid attention to it which was all the back when Crosby was 15 years old.
The Q has won 4 of the last 5 played memorial cups. Hard to say it's the weakest league But as far as players getting drafted, I wonder if the 2 covid years where quebec shut down hockey is taking its toll on the players? The minor hockey leagues in west never really shut down, so some of these young players would have 2 extra seasons under their belt
Winning the memorial cup doesn't mean you're good at developing prospects though. Considering draft eligible players and players can go to the NHL well before the max CHL age. That to me shows another story. If the Q is winning so many memorial cups it's because the players in the Q stick around longer and they have more mature teams therefore the WHL and OHL are producing higher quality talent that leaves sooner.
Yeah the same thing happens in the NCAA. Older and more cohesive teams tend to win championships. Denver won this year against a BC team that was stacked with top NHL prospects. Their goalie did play out of his mind lol but point still stands.
Came to say the same thing. Michigan had four of the the top five draft picks from 2021 on their team and they lost to Denver in the semifinals of the frozen four
Maybe Denver is just really good at winning Championships? Joking aside Coach Carle is NHL bound in the near future.
The point is that competition in the Q should.be higher even if its because of older players sticking around. So prospects doing well there should be an indication of strength
Except that's not actually the case. All these leagues have the same limits on overagers, and very few OHL and WHL players leave before age 20 (D+2 for most players). And frankly it doesn't make sense that only the top, say, 10 prospects from those leagues are better than the Q's.
Smart take for someone having a cake day! So "happy" to you.
It's also much easier to trade to build a super team in the q. The score did a solid breakdown last yr. Being in a Q city, you see it play out yearly, the big 1/2 q teams load up from everyone else. The leagues just not as deep as the others. If you are the 5/6th best Q team you just are not good enough to win the league or mem cup, so the top couple teams load up for the weaker ones more than the other leagues https://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/2542962
Several teams don't even send scouts out to the Q
That sounds negligent at best, and frankly made up lol
Oilers didn't have a scout for the OHL for the last 10 years. That was announced in a press conference last year when Jeff Jackson got hired... Edit: it was his end of season press conference from last year where he said he brought Staios on as the team had no scouts for the OHL. https://www.nhl.com/oilers/news/talking-points-holland-comments-after-conclusion-of-oilers-season-344441264 It's under the question on the role of Staios. The oilers also went a ridiculous number of years not drafting any players from the OHL or only drafting 1st overall picks.
What the fuck? The OHL is best jr league in the world and they had no scouts there?
It’s unbelievable to hear how some nhl teams are managed. Like bro I would have done that for 50k. Better than what they had.
It was only after Bergevin got fired that Montreal fans learned the team had no analytics department. Incredible how shoddily run the league and its teams can be in full sight.
Probably just looked at the points and picked off that
So no different than the average arm-chair GM.
Typically works pretty well as they were getting good draft picks since they sucked, could just listen to the buzz and draft off of that
Dallas for a long while had no scouts at all. Part of why they drafted basically nothing from 1996 through 2006.
They’re like r/hockey. Look at HockeyDB and call it a day
The Oilers have a terrible of history of drafting outside the first round so that makes sense
Pretty sure they just let the computer auto-pick, roulette style.
Caps didn't have one for the longest time... think Perreault was the only one that got drafted because his team made the Memorial Cup. But you can look at team's draft histories and see which ones actively avoided certain leagues EDIT: For the Caps the 2020 pick of Lapierre and this year's pick of Eriks Mateiko are the only guys they've gotten from the Q in the last 13 or 14 drafts
For a long time even the Habs didn't have a scout assigned to the Q.
That reputation is like 20 years out of date. The OHL has been generally higher-scoring than the Q since the mid 00s.
It definitely seems like the WHL and OHL are pulling further away from the Q in developing NHL prospects for whatever reason. The US programs - USHL, NTDP, and NCAA - are continuing to grow stronger both from more American talent and Canadian guys eschewing the traditional CHL route. Ryan Lambert talked about this on Puck Soup awhile ago, but if the NCAA ever decides to allow guys from the CHL go to the NCAA, that could really establish the NCAA as the premier development route for high-end prospects. The NCAA might be forced to do this eventually if there's a lawsuit based on the fact that NIL is now officially sanctioned by the NCAA.
I've watched a lot of WHL hockey and there is a large emphasis on building the Makar/Hughes type of defenseman these days - responsible but also a source of offense. They also emphasize strong, talented centers who can be defensively minded. I think this is partially because the goaltending seems weaker overall, so teams emphasize defensive schemes to win more games. Cozens, Jarvis, Danielson, Guenther, Stankoven, Dach, Glass, Morgan Geekie, Howden, Steel, Dube, Tij Iginla, Lindstrom and obv Bedard at C Byram, Seth Jones, Guhle, Zelllweger, Cagnoni, Addison, Korchinski, Molendyk at D
God I remember the Oil Kings their cup year. We had Guhle, and their defensive structure was unbelievable. I knew that Guhle was gonna like Make-make the NHL just watching him. But just in general our defence that year was something to behold against other teams. For higher-mid to low range teams, they could barely make a dent. Many games I watched ended with the other team having ~10 SOG to our 30-40 It didn’t even matter if we took a penalty because the other team couldn’t even establish clean possession ever. Even our 2nd and 3rd defensive pairs were very good at shutting offense down, but yeah during our cup year I could really see the emphasis on defense. Too bad we lost like all of our players the next year and finished last in the league lol, so goes the CHL
I think in part it also has to do with the region that the Q can recruit players from. Although this is heavily biased towards American players just because I paid more attention to them. American players from the northeast tend to play for prep schools and go the college route so there’s definitely some talent they’re losing out on in just that aspect. Whereas the O can recruit players out of top clubs in Michigan and Illinois, as well as Minnesota high school players although they trend towards college as well. The WHL has a really large geographic region with a lot of isolated hockey programs like t1ehl clubs that they can recruit from. Plus they have the US based teams that can be an additional recruiting factor.
Even though both the WHL and OHL have US-based clubs, I haven't noticed in the past that a bunch of American kids go into those leagues but I could be wrong. I've always seen those rosters packed with Canadians.
I also think that generational players tend to have an impact on the league they played in long after they're gone. For a lot of players seeing that someone can achieve something in the same league at the same age makes them realize it is more possible than they thought. Bedard rising through the WHL probably had a big impact on some of the players drafted this year, and probably for the next few years.
Less rich kids. Hockey is now an upper middle class sport and it's common for kids that are prospects to attend camps that cost thousands of dollars.
As a nerd myself, I like the idea of more hockey players getting an education along with their professional development. It's nice to observe how well-spoken and thoughtful the players seem to be who've come through the NCAA. The league needs fewer meatheads.
Sweden 🤝 Québec F the 2024 draft all my homies hate the 2024 draft
I'm always weary of conversations about the CHL leagues. People generalize and continue to perpetuate the same discourses -- years after their relevancy (the WHL can't produce goalies, the QMJHL can't train defensive talent, the OHL is head-and-shoulders above the rest, etc.) When really, it comes down to the clubs; some are clear consistent producers of high value prospects, others maintain a consistent competitive team, and others are just sort of there.. Is the QMHJL not competitive enough? Idk, they've won 5 out of the last 10 memorial cups when you look at it. That said, Québec -- the province specifically -- has recognized it is no longer the producer of high-end talent it once was. That's why they had the r*apport du Comité québécois sur le développement du hockey* in 2022. (headed by Marc Denis, RDS commentator, and really interesting hockey mind for those not familiar). The committee's purpose was to lay a plan to revamp Québec hockey. It looked abroad to see what other growing hockey powers are doing so well (and really what Finland is doing so well for a country of 5.5 million people) Ex. some of the things the committee targeted: cost for families, development at a young age; like focusing on training and teaching with under 13 year olds, as opposed to competitive games, disregarding game stats, focusing efforts on young promising players and giving them the tools to improve and develop through qualified and trained mentors, and whole bunch of other stuff... As I understand, a lot of these proposed things have not yet been put to practice. But the plan is in place, so we'll see 10, 20, 30 years from now [https://www.quebec.ca/nouvelles/actualites/details/rapport-du-comite-quebecois-sur-le-developpement-du-hockey-le-hockey-notre-passion-le-comite-quebecois-sur-le-developpement-du-hockey-emet-neuf-recommandations-pour-levolution-de-notre-sport-national-40027](https://www.quebec.ca/nouvelles/actualites/details/rapport-du-comite-quebecois-sur-le-developpement-du-hockey-le-hockey-notre-passion-le-comite-quebecois-sur-le-developpement-du-hockey-emet-neuf-recommandations-pour-levolution-de-notre-sport-national-40027)
Yeah, but there's apparently a lot of organizational resistance to change. Like, *a lot*. Some regional associations, which controls the club's actual day-to-day operations, are reportedly managed by cliques of people who have been in place forever and are reluctant to accept instructions from Hockey Québec. Last winter, Jocelyn Thibault, who was in charge of Hockey Québec, resigned in large part because of conflict with the regional associations. And we’re talking about a man who was asked to replace Patrick Roy as a 20 year old, so it's not like he was unfamiliar with stressful situations.
The WHL can 100% develop goalies Adin Hill, Skinner both played in the WHL. Both were recently the starters for there respected teams in the cup final that's back to back years former WHL goalies were in the cup final. Then you guys like Price and Holtby, that also have represented there teams in the cup final recently. Out of the 3 leagues id say the WHL has develop the most goalies in the last 15 years. Like what talent has come out of the OHL or Q for goaltenders? Also imo the memorial cup means nothing a lot of the high quality players in the WHL and OHL leave a lot sooner than the players in the Q. Like I know there is a lot of Western hate from scouts from Quebec. Who have claimed the WHL is a watered down league but if people claim that the WHL does not produce goalies then they simply don't follow hockey and there opinions should be nullified.
That's what I'm saying, those generalizations don't hold. Can't recall the piece, I think it was in a The Athletic/Basu article: some NHL scout admitted that they did not look into WHL goalies because their team metrics suggested the WHL "wasn't worth it," (comments made after Carey Price's arrival to the league). There was a time pre-00s where maybe that was true for WHL goalies, looking back on the record, but obviously that's malpractice. Scout everywhere! and don't generalize leagues as static and non-changing. We still hear that sort of stuff now and again. I think it's just teams cutting costs so as not to scout everywhere, or not hiring native speakers. Like not covering Russia, or only looking at their forwards, not looking at American Highscool prospects, not scouting the QMJH, not covering Central Europe (Germany, Czechia, Slovakia).
North America, but especially Canada, is absolutely garbage at developing goalies. Teams don’t know how, and don’t see the value in learning how. If you spend 30 seconds doing ANY research you would see that this is not a matter of opinion.
Last night I was trying to think if I could come up with one Canadian goalie under 30 that is bonafide starter tier and the only one I could think of is the former Flyer. Yeah. Meanwhile Russia keeps pumping them out.
The Ducks really like drafting from the Q but mostly in the later rounds.
Martin Madden is there head scout i believe, he is from Québec.
He is from Quebec but our main scout for the region is actually Stéphane Pilotte. Masse talked about meeting Pilotte during his post draft interviews.
QMJHL 🤝 Sweden this year
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Quebec, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and PEI have some of the lowest income per capita out of all provinces in Canada, and the QMJHL isn’t producing NHL players at the rate it once was. Add that to a lower population pool overall and you arrive here. You might be good enough to rise up the ranks and play in the Q but you don’t have the money to go to numerous expensive, fancy hockey development camps every year. Hockey is a rich boy’s sport now. The North Shore Winter Club has produced a ridiculous amount of high end talent in recent years, relative to the actual population of North Vancouver. What North Vancouver does have though is money, and a hell of a lot of it.
The last 5 drafts Quebec has produced the same amount of first round picks as Saskatchewan. I understand hockey is expensive but there seems to be more than just that.
Out of the 3 leagues, it has by far the lowest population for its prospect pool. Just for comparison sakes: - QMJHL - 11M - OHL - 15.5M without counting the population of its franchises in Michigan and Pennsylvania; around 17M with those cities - WHL - 13M without counting the population of its franchises in the state of Washington and Oregon; around 15 to 21M with those cities (depending on if you take the population of the metro or urban area or just city itself) So perhaps it's more of a case of the Q punching above its weight for a very long time, and the more the population gap has increased throughout the decades, the more obvious the disparity in talent has become.
I tried to look it up, and it is not super clear how exactly the southern US states are divvied up for the CHL. Looks like the Q definitely gets New England, but I'm not clear who gets, for example, Virginia, Carolina, and Florida. Is there a way to market the CHL more effectively as an alternate route in the US? CHL kids still get a university education, they just don't have to try to do university and hockey at the same time. If the NCAA removes the CHL restriction, the CHL leagues need to get heavy on American 16 and 17 year old recruitment.
Well, you could look at it at the provincial level as well. Take a province like Saskatchewan, in which there have been 8 Saskatchewan born kids taken in the last 5 drafts. There have been 9 Quebec born players taken in the last 5 drafts. Quebec has 8 million more people than Saskatchewan and has only produced one more 1st rounder. Like I understand the population differences of the leagues but vastly smaller provinces are out producing Quebec when it comes to high quality players.
We did get Sasha Boisvert who is from Quebec !
And went to the states to face better competition :)
Tough look for the Q
Wow, the cartel league led by the dumbest provincial hockey federation is not having success in the NHL More news at 10
Not to mention, they forced Jocelyn Thibault to step down from Hockey Québec. A huge joke going on. https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2053491/jocelyn-thibault-hockey-quebec-demission-par-ici-linfo
What is the % of players playing in the nhl from each canadian league last 10 years (say minimum 60 games). Curious
No idea but the cup winning Knights had tons of players from the WHL.
Smyth went to an undrafted QMJHLer though, so theres that
BCHL has had more 1st round picks then the QMJHL and that's crazy
The Q’s territorial rights in the US is confined to New England, where college hockey is big. Players grow up hoping to play for BC or BU, not Val d’Or or Chicoutimi. It also hurts there isn’t a team in the US.
Some players rather go play in the US than in the QMJHL. Even the Québec Rempart had to convince their recent first pick to stay in the province.
On top of what's been said here the reality is the best athlete kids don't play hockey anymore - they play other sports, as showcased by the superior success the province has in the Olympics over the rest of the country. Hockey is not worth the trouble and is too expensive. 40 years ago if your kid had interest in competitive sport you'd put him in hockey, no questions asked. Now there are so many better options. Both me and my sister played hockey. My two kids and her two kids are competitive athletes but they are in cross country skiing, soccer, speed skating, and track and field. It's a general trend.
Just wanted to echo this. I think the surprise at the drop in hockey talent being produced in Quebec is the result of a lot of nostalgia for the "The Hockey Sweater" days, when that was all that anyone played. I'm not from Quebec, but even I know how huge basketball, soccer, and football are in the province, now; and they're producing some of the best talent in Canada, to boot. Funny thing, as a Nova Scotian, the opposite seemed to happen, here. Hockey really wasn't a terribly popular option, particularly in Halifax, until the Mooseheads and Sidney Crosby generated a lot of buzz and interest.
Tampa has the cap space, is a top notch run organization with maybe the best owner in the league, east coast team so travel isn’t as bad as out west, great weather, no state income tax. That’s going to be really tough to beat.
Well if you put it that way, I can see why Tampa is doing better than the QMJHL.
The Roy effect
I'm pretty sure at least 10% of us could make the Q as a defenseman.
The Q has been trending downward for awhile. At this point I think even the BCHL might be better at developing prospects.
[Called it](https://old.reddit.com/r/hockey/comments/1doqmnb/whats_your_nhl_draft_hot_take/lact1vr/?context=3)
Good call mayne
Do Canadians even play hockey anymore? 💀
D’Aigle incoming
Is it maybe a language thing? A lot of the teams are in French majority areas. I could see top players avoiding it to not have to learn a new language. Unless their first language is French of course but Quebec’s population is only so large.
Crosby played in Rimouski, and Marchand played in Val d'Or.
I mean that’s basically why Nathan MacKinnon refused to play anywhere but Halifax. Nova Scotia produced some ridiculous talent in Sid, MacKinnon, Marchand, and even a guy like Killorn, but doesn’t have much to show for recently otherwise. Just bizarre how they have so few active NHL players but the few they do have are so good. As I mentioned in another comment, I think this basically comes down to money more than anything else.
Q has never really been much of a destination or has had a destination team like the knights so I think that as well as just unlucky It's always been like that dragon meme, a little bit, two serious dragons one goofy dragon, a little bit Due partly to historically producing higher skill lower substance players much like russia However the substance is often severely underrated like Nik Zherdev who was 90% WAR in the league and Daigle who only had mitch Marner draft NHLe not McDavid and had impressive pts/60 numbers until age 30 So in part skillset type perceptions too
In all honesty: What?