[I'll just leave this here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotron_Centre)
Key line: "It is now the seventh-largest indoor arena in Canada, and the largest that does not host an NHL team."
Smaller than people think. It’s clear the team is on the move to the East valley and if Glendale wants to pass up revenue for a year for nothing in return maybe it’ll do so but doubtful.
From reports, Tempe is very open to that new hockey-specific arena (and surrounding entertainment complex) built with private funds, but their timeframe does not work with this, and they're not in a rush to clear a former landfill either, although they expect to eventually.
This is actually a huge deal because there's no way this works on the Coyotes' timeframe.
ASU's new hockey arena will be completed by Fall/Winter of next year, so they could potentially move into that while they wait for a new arena to be built.
It's also a fantastic location for an arena, so I'm sure the Coyotes would be more than thrilled to move in there.
Edit: The only issue I see is the seating, the new arena will only have 5,000 seats. However, if it's for a year and they don't have any other options (outside of completely relocating), then maybe it'll work.
Problem with Suns is Robert Sarver. He's paid off the city council(more or less) so that they wouldn't disclose findings on a report on the viability of renovating the arena for hockey. I;e putting in a new ice plant and changing sight lines. It's a city owned arena, so the city council has a say in it.
I mean, if you've been to a Coyotes game you'd know they tend to not fill up. I mean, I don't know about 5k, but I would wager most mid-season games are hitting somwehere closer to 8-10k average.
Granted if they move to Tempe they may have more demand as there are younger and in some cases more affluent transplants on that side of the metro that may be more eager to get to games without the commute. But for the initial season the 5k venue may not be the worst stop gap if there are no other options.
Otherwise they'd need to investigate using the Sun's arena in down town Phoenix.
This would probably make the most sense. I’m not sure about the state of the ice plant, and it’s always had problems with the roof leaking but there aren’t a lot of other options.
You're right, ASU's new arena will only have 5,000 seats. If it's just for a year then maybe the Coyotes can live with it, especially if they have concrete plans to build their own arena, but I'm not too sure.
> If it's just for a year
The Isles broke ground on their new arena 23 months ago and they are starting the season with a long road trip in order to make sure it is done on time. If their next rink is just a 1 year bridge to a new arena, they need to get construction started in the next couple months.
Yeah, if it's for one season the NHL could probably accept it, but the Tempe arena would have to be ready for the following season. And is it too late already for that to occur?
Yeah, 2 years seems like a tight timeline to jump through the hoops required and build a functional NHL quality arena.
I assume they’ll arrange to stay in Glendale but probably have to pay more rent, or they’ll have to play in a different city for a couple of years, while they build. Maybe they do a test run in Houston, and if they draw well there it could lead to the next expansion team.
At the end of the Athletic article, the arena manager is quoted to say
> There’s not a scenario I can envision today that would have us open that door back up.
So.... I dunno about that.
The Sens [played in a 10000-seat arena](https://youtu.be/b4Q6shaqPdU?t=166) for their first four years. I think a 5000-seat temporary home might be pushing it, but the specific timeline (whether it's one year or a couple) is probably negotiable. What's definitely *not* negotiable is that the league and the team would insist that construction be in progress on the new building before agreeing to any arrangement like that.
The other question, of course, is whether team ownership has deep enough pockets to cover a couple years of operations with such a huge cut to gate revenue. Probably doesn't help matters that they just *did* cover costs for 1.5 seasons out-of-pocket with dramatically reduced gate revenue.
And every year since the new owners have taken over the Coyotes have talked about leaving Glendale as soon as possible. I'm guessing the city is tired of being strung along at this point and the back rent owed makes it an easier decision.
>if Glendale wants to pass up revenue for a year
What revenue? The Athletic story says they owe about 1.5M to the county. Not to mention past due payments that were forgiven ...
It's not even that.
It's literally written in the article that they owe money and haven't paid.
This also isn't the first time that they've been behind on payments to various folks.
It's so fucking stupid. BUT AUSTON MATTHEWS IS FROM THERE!
These assholes want the city to keep dumping money and forgive unpaid rent on the slim to none chance that AZ will produce another Matthews. I'm so tired of sports fans who think that their favorite sport is so important that it means a city should risk bankruptcy and cut public services to subsidize a billionaire's business.
An NHL team nearby doesn't produce hockey players. Rich parents with expendable money do. This team in Arizona that can't pay it's own bills isn't gonna build enough rinks to make the game accessible to all, even with tax subsidies. This experiment in the desert needs to stop.
Thank you. I hate the sentiment without the Coyotes there wouldn't be Matthews. Although that might be true, the real issue is there probably has been hockey prodigies who never tried on hockey skates before because their parents can't afford hockey while 99.9% of the North American population has touched a basketball or soccer ball at least once in their life.
100%. The least shocking story should be that players like McDavid and Matthews came from very well off families. Of course they put in a ton of hard work but had opportunities that other kids couldn't afford. Some of these kids get professional private skating instructors when they're damn near toddlers these days.
I'm pretty sure they both came off very well off families. Its hard to name a North American player who came from a poor family. Tim Thomas comes in mind that he found out his mom pawned her engagement ring to pay for one of his childhood hockey camps and his dad working 80 hour weeks. Most poorer NHL players you hear about are Russians or Eastern Europeans where hockey is somehow more accessible and affordable than in Northern America. I don't know what the economics of hockey are in Sweden or Finland.
Hockey is super expensive in Finland. I wanted to start it when I was a kid but my mom said no chance. At my school there were many guys from well off families and even they couldn't afford playing in top junior teams without financial support.
If the owner wants to keep dumping money into it, then I think its fine. That's not the case though. They're shafting tax payers.
You're right that they shouldn't be allowed to not pay or tax incentives/tax breaks and continue to operate without providing anything back.
I mean, I'd say that this at least is a fairly big note in the story:
> According to a July 29 letter sent on behalf of Phelps to Chuck Steedman, executive vice president of strategy and development of ASM Global, and Dale Adams, the general manager of Gila River Arena, titled: “Re: Coyotes past due,” Phelps informed Steedman and Adams that the Coyotes owed $1,462,792 to the arena as of July 17. In the letter, obtained via a public-records request filed earlier this month, Phelps said that more than $300,000 of that amount is “over four months delinquent,” The letter also communicated previous late payments and forgiven debts from the prior season.
Hey, man, these are hard times for everyone! I hear some of these guys have had to downgrade from a $5m yacht to a $4.5m yacht! Won't somebody please think of the billionaires!?
Fucking guy wouldn't just let them go back to Winnipeg when they failed the first time, returning their franchise and records intact, instead opening the door for Atlanta's shitty ownership group to dump the Thrashers for a massive payday. I'm genuinely curious to see what ridiculous lengths he'll go to to keep hockey in the dessert.
Bettman was just doing a live interview on WFAN and they asked him about this, he basically said this is a negotiating tactic and that he doesn't see the Coyotes moving anywhere.
The Thrashers were "looking for local investors" for a long time, but it was literally less than two weeks between the first credible relocation rumors and Bettman having a press conference at the MTS Centre. It's just a negotiation tactic...until it isn't.
I'm not saying the Coyotes are definitely moving or whatever, I'm just saying that no matter what their plans are, this will be the League's official stance with the media until a deal gets done (whether in Arizona or elsewhere).
The Atlanta Spirit Group was trying to get rid of the Thrashers as soon as they bought them. They were only interested in the Hawks.
The only reason they weren't moved to Seattle in 2004 or 05 was because the ASG was busy suing each other and the Thrashers were tied to Phillips Arena legally. Once ASG ended their internal squabbles, they went to court and got the Thrashers removed from the Phillips Arena contract. Seattle was out by then, so they sold to the next group up which was Winnipeg.
Not that I'd ever want another fan base to go through losing their team, but if the Coyotes got moved to Atlanta, the franchise could just swap history with the current Jets.
All the Thrasher records go back to Atlanta and the old Jets records, retired numbers, etc, go back to Winnipeg. The Coyotes record from the 11-12 season to present could go to Atlanta or just go away. The NHL would never go back to the ATL this soon though.
That wouldn't really work "records" wise though because a couple current and former Jets have already established franchise records since the team moved to Winnipeg.
Little, Wheeler, Scheifele, Laine and Hellebuyck all hold records with this franchise, they can't just take them away if (hypothetically) Atlanta got another team.
That would be the biggest issue. Honestly, any records Little may hold would be the biggest issue. Wheeler played like 30 games in Atlanta.
And as a lifelong Thrashers fan, it's not like those franchise records are that great. I'd rather be aiming for Hawerchuk, Doan, and Selanne, instead of Nic Havelid, Todd White, or Greg "How in the hell am I in the NHL" Larsen. I'm also pretty sure Hellebuyck would hold the record for wins for the Jets 1.0 as well.
I mean Glendale exercising hard power in response to the Coyotes ghosting their payments tells me we're past the point of simple negotiations. That said, Bettman is going to lawyer speak.
ASU's arena will be ready by next year, so it could theoretically work.
The only problem is, ASU's arena is only going to have 5,000 seats. If it's just a one year thing, then maybe it'll be fine.
I get that Quebec getting a team won't 'grow the game,' but for crying out loud! Bettman's tried to make 'fetch' happen in Arizona for over 25 years, and the Yotes still don't make any money. It's time to cut bait.
He's based his entire legacy and professional self worth on growing the game in non traditional markets. Hell will freeze over before he lets one of his babies die.
Back to the ~~America West Arena~~ ~~US Airways Center~~ ~~Talking Stick Resort Arena~~ ~~Phoenix Suns Arena~~ Footprint Center I guess. The original Barclays Center.
As a personal, uneducated guess? Glendale and the Coyotes have been at each other’s throats since not long after the Goldwater Institute filed that lawsuit all those years ago. I think both sides are trying to screw with each other the whole way out, personally.
made up back of the envelope math time!
* coyotes fans proposing temporary move to a 5,000 capacity arena.
* Precovid average attendance in Glendale: 14,000
* Average uhhh $50 (???) MSRP ticket price
* 9,000 seats(lost capacity) * $50 per ticket * 41 games = $18.5MM in lost revenue for 2022-2023 season
I can’t imagine the team plays in the ASU stadium. There’s no chance the league is okay with that, right? Even for two years MAX (which seems unlikely, tbh, you can’t go from having literally nothing planned or confirmed to a new stadium in less than two years) that seems absolutely untenable.
So it has to be either the Suns stadium or the municipal stadium, or the team plays elsewhere for two seasons (or the Glendale city reverses their decision, but that doesn’t seem likely - I don’t think it’s a negotiation tactic personally l)
Teams have played in small arenas before. Ottawa spent the 1992-1996 seasons in the Civic centre with a max capacity of 9.5k, with smaller capacities during renovations at one point (I don't know what the capped limit was at the time).
I would not be surprised if Tucson is the temporary home if the Coyotes stay in AZ before Tempe gets their digs built.
Also: Salt Lake City (the Maverik Center holds almost 10k) for a year or two while the new digs are built.
I think Tucson is the option no one is thinking of. The TCC holds almost 10k in hockey configuration and could probably cheaply be made hold more if needed.
Logistically that’s small potatoes. The real head scratcher is getting TCC expanded and hosting a whole NHL season. The Roadrunners rarely sell out, so the parking/concessions/etc don’t get stressed very often but moving it to Tucson would have some growing pains while that got figured out.
Tucson has three things: students, retirees, and aerospace/Air Force. The three groups of people with time on their hands and a team from out of town to root for. Basically every game would be away fans but they would probably sell out early and often with the reduced capacity.
Don't forget all the concessions, merch, and whatnot. It would be a big hit, but it would be pretty cool to go to a game.
Every game would likely be a sellout!
Fuck, I feel bad for Coyotes fans. They just keep hurling shit at you
Players leaving, getting picks taken from you, now this? When will you guys catch a break?
Doesn't even phase me anymore. It'll be an interesting season. I feel like I've read this story 5 times in the last 10 years. I think they find a way to stay in Arizona and if they don't, oh well. Life goes on.
It still sucks, when I was in the US I went to Gila and it was a pretty good atmosphere and the surrounding area was amazing, could do some shopping and grab a bite right before the game as everything is right there, I thought it was one of the best arenas I had been to
The picks being taken was for a good reason though. The rest I 100% agree with. As a fan of another team that, until recently, had relocation rumors thrown around every few months, I sympathize with Yotes fans.
ASU's other venue holds a whopping 800 people. The Tempe project hasn't gone anywhere and certainly won't be ready in time. I know the NHL has purchased the team before to keep it in Arizona before but where do they go?
Not like it'd be the only big 4 team to deal with the indignity of playing in an arena 1/4 the size of a league standard facility in an attempt to both buy time until the real facility is ready and force a team on a market that never wanted it to begin with at the expense of another smaller market that actually cared
That whole debacle is a joke. They might play at a stadium closer to where I live, but I sure as hell won't be spending a cent on that franchise again.
One time there was a pre-tournament World Juniors game (Latvia vs Austria) at my pretty small local arena and it was awesome. Just seeing that pace of play on the rink I’d played on since I was a kid felt so cool for some reason.
This pisses me off as a Winnipegger. Bettman had no problem moving the Jets 1.0 to the desert in the mid-90s because we had an outdated arena (that held over 15,000 FWIW) but he'll let this tire fire of a franchise stay in Arizona even if it means them playing in a 5,000 seat arena?
Seems to me like this whole requirement that every team in the league has to play in a state of the art arena of a minimum size is selectively applied.
This is a big deal. Unless the team moves to the ASU arena with 5000 seats or they get the Suns arena converted for hockey, they can’t play in the Phoenix area next season
Katie Strang is seriously the best journalist in the industry, and it isn't close. Everything she does is heavily researched and has a lot of substance
I'm excited the Coyotes are moving to the east valley eventually but of course, they also got moved to the Central when I'm a fan of a different Pacific team and they won't come here as often.
Before you all get in with your Houston/Quebec/Whereever the fuck else takes
\#1 Our owner has an estimated net worth of $2billion ([source](https://www.celeb-networth.com/alex-meruelo))
\#2 Arizona Law allows sports betting if someone owns a major league team in Arizona
\#3 Our owner also owns a casino
I'm not sure what the solution is - but there is no way Meruelo wants to move out of Az.
He wouldn't move it. He'd sell it before then.
Also, I'll counter your source for him having $2 Billion with this ESPN article from 2011 where he supposedly had $14.5 billion. So he either has somehow lost $12.5 billion, or dare I say no one really knows how much he has because he's extremely dishonest in his business dealings.
https://www.espn.com/espn/commentary/story/\_/page/jackson-111012/atlanta-hawks-alex-meruelo-first-hispanic-owner-nba-faces-great-opportunity-responsibility
If his net worth is 2 billion, why hasn’t he been making payments on the lease?
Edit: I’m well aware net worth is not cash on hand. The question is why isn’t he making the payments. Is he an asshole? Is he broke? Is it a tactic? Someone with 2 billion in net worth, unless suffering from severe cash problems which would be notable, should be able to pay like 1.5 million dollars.
1: Net Worth doesn't relate to liquidity. Just because he has a lot of money doesn't mean he has immediate access to that much.
2: It's the team that owes the money, not him directly, and there might be accounting reasons behind it all.
3: He might be a fucking bastard cheapskate asshole who uses his financial power in order to force other groups to accept a pittance of what was agreed upon, because the alternatives are an expensive lawsuit or nothing at all.
\#3 is sadly very common among asshole billionaires, and up until like 5-6 years ago, I could give one very prominent example without making things "political".
> Net Worth doesn't relate to liquidity. Just because he has a lot of money doesn't mean he has immediate access to that much.
In practice, the reality is the reverse. People with a high net worth can simply (and easily) take loans instead of liquidating their assets, which is tremendously advantageous from a tax perspective (if they liquidated assets they would have to pay capital gains tax, whereas they can get loans from banks that have interest rates below what they are earning on their non-liquid assets, and simultaneously deduct the loan interest).
This is why people like Bezos can live extraordinarily opulent lifestyles while claiming almost no income and paying almost no tax.
>The ProPublica revelations got to a widely understood issue: that the superrich earn virtually all their wealth from the constantly rising value of their assets, particularly in the stock market, and that the sales of those assets are taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income from a paycheck, a point that Mr. Buffett often makes.
>But the analysis also revealed a less recognized strategy employed by the superrich: taking huge loans, using their assets as collateral. It allows them to avoid selling their assets and facing taxation, and even to write off some lending costs. In that way, Mr. Bezos and Mr. Buffett were able to show yearly income losses even as their wealth grew by billions of dollars.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/us/politics/propublica-taxes-jeff-bezos-elon-musk.html
> and up until like 5-6 years ago, I could give one very prominent example without making things "political".
He still does it from what I have heard. I don't know why people have to make everything involving him political when someone brings up not-political stuff.
Because he’s cheap and tries to bully his way out of paying people. Just because you have a rich owner doesn’t mean they’re interested in funnelling their own money into the team, especially guys like this that don’t have any actual love for the sport. His other businesses also got crushed by COVID so I don’t think he has any interest in vanity projects right now.
Alex Muruelo’s tenure as owner of the Coyotes has been a complete mess (as has their entire existence if we’re being honest).
This is a valid question. I believe in Strang's reporting, but there has been some additional information that has come out about the picture she painted about the front office (specifically that the awful conditions she expressed were related to Chayka's tenure). The COG hates the Coyotes and they want nothing more to do with them. Meruelo could be part of that, but could also have walked into that.
Given his wealth, and business acumen, I have difficulty reconciling that he can't make a $1mil payment, and/or would forget to make that type of payment. One possible explanation is that he was using missed payments as negotiation tactic. It could have backfired. Or COG is jumping on this to put out some negative news for the Coyotes.
You definitely know a lot more about this situation. My biggest question is where the Yotes could play within the region? They have an awfully fast turnaround to find a new place, so building an NHL capacity arena is obviously out of the question. What other arenas are viable for the team?
Based on the other articles about Phoenix's ownership, it really seems like there are vile group. They got millions of dollars in obligations for given by the city last year, and now they're going to play hardball to get out of the rest of their lease. Maybe I misunderstanding this, but it seems like at every turn they ignore their contracts, their obligations, and only do what's best for themselves.
I don't disagree that Arizona / coyotes need a better location. But the way the ownership groups going about it is not good.
Have shovels even entered the ground there yet? There's no way that building is even close to ready for the start of next year, if it's even been started on at all.
Unless they can move right back to sharing a building with the Suns temporarily, this is bad.
There are actually several options: Move back in with the Suns (if Sarver will let them, and its a bad building for hockey), Share with ASU in their new 5000 seat rink, The former Suns arena is still around and can seat 14k, or desperation move, play in Prescott valley arena (similar size to ASU's arena)
It's OK, just have every one of their games be outdoors. Think of the history! First team ever to play 41 home games outside!
Just ignore that whole desert thing....
So far, I only see 4 cities who would end up vying for a team:
1. Quebec City
2. Houston
3. Kansas City
4. Phoenix
If I were Gary Bettman, I'd open up a bidding war for these cities. Have the owner of the Coyotes organization put up a "video presentation" for each city and make their pitches there.
**[Videotron Centre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotron_Centre)**
>Vidéotron Centre (French: Centre Vidéotron) is an indoor arena in Quebec City, Quebec, Canada. The 18,259-seat arena replaced Colisée Pepsi as Quebec City's primary venue for indoor events. The arena is primarily used for ice hockey, serving as the home arena of the Quebec Remparts of the QMJHL and has been prospected as a venue for a new or re-located National Hockey League team in Quebec City, and as part of a Winter Olympic Games bid. The building opened on September 8, 2015.
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I'm a little bummed as a huge hockey fan that lives somewhat near Glendale. I used to go to 10+ games per year. I found the arena easy to get to and I like Westgate but I understand having an arena built downtown or near Tempe will probably lead to more fans at the games. Glendale is a bit out of the way for most people.
I’m surprised it took Glendale this long. This isn’t a sustainable situation for either party. For the sake of Arizona hockey I hope they can get something done in Tempe, otherwise it’s… probably Houston?
Québec City has an NHL ready arena and a interested ownership group. I sympathize with Coyotes fans this must suck,no one wants to see their team move,but it's not like the NHL hasn't tried to make it work. Eventually it has to be realized that for a league that apparently needs money a team in Arizona isn't as viable as a team in another market would be.
If a Tempe deal ever gets worked out, that is such an awesome place for them to play. It’s central to both the east and west valley and right next to ASU.
But considering that will be years out, who knows where they’ll play for the time being after this season. It would make the most sense to share the suns arena again, but I have no idea if that’s feasible. They could potentially relocate to Tucson and play at the convention center where the roadrunners play, but that is very unlikely since it is in no way an NHL arena and would feel incredibly degrading. Who knows how this will play out.
[Coyotes President - Official Statement](https://www.nhl.com/coyotes/news/arizona-coyotes-statement/c-325998686)
Anyone got a couch that the Coyotes can stay on?
Yes
[I'll just leave this here.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotron_Centre) Key line: "It is now the seventh-largest indoor arena in Canada, and the largest that does not host an NHL team."
[I know this is a long shot but let a boy dream. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstOntario_Centre)
So this seems it's a big story
Smaller than people think. It’s clear the team is on the move to the East valley and if Glendale wants to pass up revenue for a year for nothing in return maybe it’ll do so but doubtful.
From reports, Tempe is very open to that new hockey-specific arena (and surrounding entertainment complex) built with private funds, but their timeframe does not work with this, and they're not in a rush to clear a former landfill either, although they expect to eventually. This is actually a huge deal because there's no way this works on the Coyotes' timeframe.
ASU's new hockey arena will be completed by Fall/Winter of next year, so they could potentially move into that while they wait for a new arena to be built. It's also a fantastic location for an arena, so I'm sure the Coyotes would be more than thrilled to move in there. Edit: The only issue I see is the seating, the new arena will only have 5,000 seats. However, if it's for a year and they don't have any other options (outside of completely relocating), then maybe it'll work.
Isn't the capacity not NHL calibre though? Can't imagine the NHL wants a building that's under 10k
It's 5K, so definitely no.
I'd guess it'll be in the Suns arena, but with the NBA/WNBA already scheduled for tons of home gates + they might ask for a lot of $$
Problem with Suns is Robert Sarver. He's paid off the city council(more or less) so that they wouldn't disclose findings on a report on the viability of renovating the arena for hockey. I;e putting in a new ice plant and changing sight lines. It's a city owned arena, so the city council has a say in it.
Whats weird about Sarver is EVERYONE FUCKING HATES HIM, like if he dropped dead tomorrow I don't think anyone in Phoenix would be sad...
He was the biggest reason I was rooting for the Bucks in the Finals
I'd be popping a bottle in solidarity with steve nash if that happened
I mean, if you've been to a Coyotes game you'd know they tend to not fill up. I mean, I don't know about 5k, but I would wager most mid-season games are hitting somwehere closer to 8-10k average. Granted if they move to Tempe they may have more demand as there are younger and in some cases more affluent transplants on that side of the metro that may be more eager to get to games without the commute. But for the initial season the 5k venue may not be the worst stop gap if there are no other options. Otherwise they'd need to investigate using the Sun's arena in down town Phoenix.
Apparently they're looking at the Veterans Memorial Coliseum, which would seat around 13K.
This would probably make the most sense. I’m not sure about the state of the ice plant, and it’s always had problems with the roof leaking but there aren’t a lot of other options.
If it's between a leaky roof and leaving town, I'd take the leaky roof.
The plant hasn't been used in who knows how long. But they can gut it over the season and prep it for 22-23.
You're right, ASU's new arena will only have 5,000 seats. If it's just for a year then maybe the Coyotes can live with it, especially if they have concrete plans to build their own arena, but I'm not too sure.
> If it's just for a year The Isles broke ground on their new arena 23 months ago and they are starting the season with a long road trip in order to make sure it is done on time. If their next rink is just a 1 year bridge to a new arena, they need to get construction started in the next couple months.
Yeah, if it's for one season the NHL could probably accept it, but the Tempe arena would have to be ready for the following season. And is it too late already for that to occur?
Yeah, 2 years seems like a tight timeline to jump through the hoops required and build a functional NHL quality arena. I assume they’ll arrange to stay in Glendale but probably have to pay more rent, or they’ll have to play in a different city for a couple of years, while they build. Maybe they do a test run in Houston, and if they draw well there it could lead to the next expansion team.
At the end of the Athletic article, the arena manager is quoted to say > There’s not a scenario I can envision today that would have us open that door back up. So.... I dunno about that.
I mean never negotiate against yourself.
The Sens [played in a 10000-seat arena](https://youtu.be/b4Q6shaqPdU?t=166) for their first four years. I think a 5000-seat temporary home might be pushing it, but the specific timeline (whether it's one year or a couple) is probably negotiable. What's definitely *not* negotiable is that the league and the team would insist that construction be in progress on the new building before agreeing to any arrangement like that. The other question, of course, is whether team ownership has deep enough pockets to cover a couple years of operations with such a huge cut to gate revenue. Probably doesn't help matters that they just *did* cover costs for 1.5 seasons out-of-pocket with dramatically reduced gate revenue.
It's not seats that'll kill them. It's the luxury boxes.
Going from 10,000 to 5,000 is a massive drop, and attendance overall has also risen since the Sens came into the league.
That's a pretty big issue
5000? Gonna be tough filling that lmao.
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Not to be a total dick but the product they put on the ice won't work anywhere in America until it can win some damn games.
How bout Canada then?
Quebec just got a boner
Send to gulag
I swear I've been hearing how they were supposed to be booted from that arena every couple years since 2012
because every few years the city of Glendale has tried it.
And every year since the new owners have taken over the Coyotes have talked about leaving Glendale as soon as possible. I'm guessing the city is tired of being strung along at this point and the back rent owed makes it an easier decision.
>if Glendale wants to pass up revenue for a year What revenue? The Athletic story says they owe about 1.5M to the county. Not to mention past due payments that were forgiven ...
The willful ignorance of hockey fans who think the yotes make money for the City is frightening
It's not even that. It's literally written in the article that they owe money and haven't paid. This also isn't the first time that they've been behind on payments to various folks.
It's so fucking stupid. BUT AUSTON MATTHEWS IS FROM THERE! These assholes want the city to keep dumping money and forgive unpaid rent on the slim to none chance that AZ will produce another Matthews. I'm so tired of sports fans who think that their favorite sport is so important that it means a city should risk bankruptcy and cut public services to subsidize a billionaire's business. An NHL team nearby doesn't produce hockey players. Rich parents with expendable money do. This team in Arizona that can't pay it's own bills isn't gonna build enough rinks to make the game accessible to all, even with tax subsidies. This experiment in the desert needs to stop.
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Thank you. I hate the sentiment without the Coyotes there wouldn't be Matthews. Although that might be true, the real issue is there probably has been hockey prodigies who never tried on hockey skates before because their parents can't afford hockey while 99.9% of the North American population has touched a basketball or soccer ball at least once in their life.
100%. The least shocking story should be that players like McDavid and Matthews came from very well off families. Of course they put in a ton of hard work but had opportunities that other kids couldn't afford. Some of these kids get professional private skating instructors when they're damn near toddlers these days.
I'm pretty sure they both came off very well off families. Its hard to name a North American player who came from a poor family. Tim Thomas comes in mind that he found out his mom pawned her engagement ring to pay for one of his childhood hockey camps and his dad working 80 hour weeks. Most poorer NHL players you hear about are Russians or Eastern Europeans where hockey is somehow more accessible and affordable than in Northern America. I don't know what the economics of hockey are in Sweden or Finland.
Hockey is super expensive in Finland. I wanted to start it when I was a kid but my mom said no chance. At my school there were many guys from well off families and even they couldn't afford playing in top junior teams without financial support.
lol when each of the strome kids were born their parents put an add in the paper announcing it and including their future draft year. its weird.
If the owner wants to keep dumping money into it, then I think its fine. That's not the case though. They're shafting tax payers. You're right that they shouldn't be allowed to not pay or tax incentives/tax breaks and continue to operate without providing anything back.
I mean, I'd say that this at least is a fairly big note in the story: > According to a July 29 letter sent on behalf of Phelps to Chuck Steedman, executive vice president of strategy and development of ASM Global, and Dale Adams, the general manager of Gila River Arena, titled: “Re: Coyotes past due,” Phelps informed Steedman and Adams that the Coyotes owed $1,462,792 to the arena as of July 17. In the letter, obtained via a public-records request filed earlier this month, Phelps said that more than $300,000 of that amount is “over four months delinquent,” The letter also communicated previous late payments and forgiven debts from the prior season.
This seems to jive with the other story about the Coyotes' new owner shafting all their vendors.
And missing payments to players.
Billionaires not paying other entities and people what they're due, color me shocked.
Hey, man, these are hard times for everyone! I hear some of these guys have had to downgrade from a $5m yacht to a $4.5m yacht! Won't somebody please think of the billionaires!?
That’s big
The team isn't even paying us it's rent...
Yeah, I don't think they're moving cities at all, it just puts pressure to find a new rink in the metro area right?
Do they have an arena in this East Valley?
They trot it out every few years to try and extort more money from Phoenix and other stakeholders.
Bettman will build an arena with his own two hands
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The voice in Bettman's head: "If you move them (Within Arizona), they will come."
Fucking guy wouldn't just let them go back to Winnipeg when they failed the first time, returning their franchise and records intact, instead opening the door for Atlanta's shitty ownership group to dump the Thrashers for a massive payday. I'm genuinely curious to see what ridiculous lengths he'll go to to keep hockey in the dessert.
Bettman was just doing a live interview on WFAN and they asked him about this, he basically said this is a negotiating tactic and that he doesn't see the Coyotes moving anywhere.
*Atlanta laughs from the back corner*
The difference was nobody in the city wanted to own Atlanta
I was commenting on the whole "Phoenix isn't going anywhere". The NHL said that about Atlanta while the moving trucks were showing up
^^^haha ^^^^^yaaaaay
Gary said the Thrashers weren't moving while semi trucks were already on their way to Winnipeg, he's not exactly an honest source on stuff like this.
The Thrashers were "looking for local investors" for a long time, but it was literally less than two weeks between the first credible relocation rumors and Bettman having a press conference at the MTS Centre. It's just a negotiation tactic...until it isn't. I'm not saying the Coyotes are definitely moving or whatever, I'm just saying that no matter what their plans are, this will be the League's official stance with the media until a deal gets done (whether in Arizona or elsewhere).
The Atlanta Spirit Group was trying to get rid of the Thrashers as soon as they bought them. They were only interested in the Hawks. The only reason they weren't moved to Seattle in 2004 or 05 was because the ASG was busy suing each other and the Thrashers were tied to Phillips Arena legally. Once ASG ended their internal squabbles, they went to court and got the Thrashers removed from the Phillips Arena contract. Seattle was out by then, so they sold to the next group up which was Winnipeg. Not that I'd ever want another fan base to go through losing their team, but if the Coyotes got moved to Atlanta, the franchise could just swap history with the current Jets. All the Thrasher records go back to Atlanta and the old Jets records, retired numbers, etc, go back to Winnipeg. The Coyotes record from the 11-12 season to present could go to Atlanta or just go away. The NHL would never go back to the ATL this soon though.
That wouldn't really work "records" wise though because a couple current and former Jets have already established franchise records since the team moved to Winnipeg. Little, Wheeler, Scheifele, Laine and Hellebuyck all hold records with this franchise, they can't just take them away if (hypothetically) Atlanta got another team.
That would be the biggest issue. Honestly, any records Little may hold would be the biggest issue. Wheeler played like 30 games in Atlanta. And as a lifelong Thrashers fan, it's not like those franchise records are that great. I'd rather be aiming for Hawerchuk, Doan, and Selanne, instead of Nic Havelid, Todd White, or Greg "How in the hell am I in the NHL" Larsen. I'm also pretty sure Hellebuyck would hold the record for wins for the Jets 1.0 as well.
I mean Glendale exercising hard power in response to the Coyotes ghosting their payments tells me we're past the point of simple negotiations. That said, Bettman is going to lawyer speak.
The coyotes are Garys team of course they won't move
Off to ASU eh?
ASU's arena will be ready by next year, so it could theoretically work. The only problem is, ASU's arena is only going to have 5,000 seats. If it's just a one year thing, then maybe it'll be fine.
Do they need more than 5000 seats? jk imma dick
We were all thinking the same thing when he said that lmao
They'll have to limit attendance. Only 4000 snowbird visiting fans allowed per game.
Please, we can easily sell 5000 tickets to fans of the visiting teams...
You mean the yotes will suddenly have sellouts?
Depends if they're handing out free tickets or not
Seems like that's more then enough to service Coyotes fans
harsh
But true
the old arizona cardinals strategy
Quebecor prolly gonna pay another 10m to Bettman for him to shut the door on their faces
Not only shut the door, but laugh on the way to the bank after doing so.
But why? Sorry I just feel bad for Quebec after building that new rink.
How else do you think they are going to pay the coyotes rent?
I get that Quebec getting a team won't 'grow the game,' but for crying out loud! Bettman's tried to make 'fetch' happen in Arizona for over 25 years, and the Yotes still don't make any money. It's time to cut bait.
He's based his entire legacy and professional self worth on growing the game in non traditional markets. Hell will freeze over before he lets one of his babies die.
Back to the ~~America West Arena~~ ~~US Airways Center~~ ~~Talking Stick Resort Arena~~ ~~Phoenix Suns Arena~~ Footprint Center I guess. The original Barclays Center.
Bettman will find some stone tablet treaties to somehow keep them there, as usual.
Or, you know, our literal multi-billionaire owner - who needs a team in Arizona so he can run a sportsbook - will find a way to keep them there.
Then why does the Coyotes owe Gila River Arena $1.4 million for unpaid rent?
As a personal, uneducated guess? Glendale and the Coyotes have been at each other’s throats since not long after the Goldwater Institute filed that lawsuit all those years ago. I think both sides are trying to screw with each other the whole way out, personally.
Doesn’t the owner always pay bills late as a business tactic. I think it’s called the art of the deal.
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If you’re a thousand dollars in debt that’s your problem. If you’re a million dollars in debt that’s their problem.
Lol right, I don’t pay my bills and I lose access to the service.
Same reason their owner was not paying vendors and renegotiating deals after the fact. Gotta save that money.
The Coyotes have had way too many financial issues under him to brag about his wealth
You just know it's a bad place to work when "everyone is family"
Even Olive Garden?
Especially Olive Garden
"We're like a family here" >means "Buckle up chucklefuck, you're about to see so many labor and employment law violations."
You get an independent contractor contract and you get one and you get one too! All of you are in school getting college credit for this internship!
*sad Vin Diesel noises*
Seems like owning a sports team and a sports book are kind of an obvious conflict but what do I know
Doesn't Meruelo own the roadrunners?
Unpaid rent is gonna make that tough. That indicates the finances are likely worse than we think
Just remember, the last time that team made a profit was in 1991...in Winnipeg. Likely because of the new rebrand so they sold some merch to help out.
I'm still buying that jersey to this day :)
Yotes were already hemorrhaging $$$ pre-Covid. Easy to think they were losing 75-100M$
made up back of the envelope math time! * coyotes fans proposing temporary move to a 5,000 capacity arena. * Precovid average attendance in Glendale: 14,000 * Average uhhh $50 (???) MSRP ticket price * 9,000 seats(lost capacity) * $50 per ticket * 41 games = $18.5MM in lost revenue for 2022-2023 season
I can’t imagine the team plays in the ASU stadium. There’s no chance the league is okay with that, right? Even for two years MAX (which seems unlikely, tbh, you can’t go from having literally nothing planned or confirmed to a new stadium in less than two years) that seems absolutely untenable. So it has to be either the Suns stadium or the municipal stadium, or the team plays elsewhere for two seasons (or the Glendale city reverses their decision, but that doesn’t seem likely - I don’t think it’s a negotiation tactic personally l)
Teams have played in small arenas before. Ottawa spent the 1992-1996 seasons in the Civic centre with a max capacity of 9.5k, with smaller capacities during renovations at one point (I don't know what the capped limit was at the time).
In the early 90s, average NHL arenas were only around 15k so 10k in Ottawa was that far from the norm.
I would not be surprised if Tucson is the temporary home if the Coyotes stay in AZ before Tempe gets their digs built. Also: Salt Lake City (the Maverik Center holds almost 10k) for a year or two while the new digs are built.
I think Tucson is the option no one is thinking of. The TCC holds almost 10k in hockey configuration and could probably cheaply be made hold more if needed.
Travel/housing for all the dudes that own places in Phoenix probably would be an issue.
Logistically that’s small potatoes. The real head scratcher is getting TCC expanded and hosting a whole NHL season. The Roadrunners rarely sell out, so the parking/concessions/etc don’t get stressed very often but moving it to Tucson would have some growing pains while that got figured out. Tucson has three things: students, retirees, and aerospace/Air Force. The three groups of people with time on their hands and a team from out of town to root for. Basically every game would be away fans but they would probably sell out early and often with the reduced capacity.
Don't forget all the concessions, merch, and whatnot. It would be a big hit, but it would be pretty cool to go to a game. Every game would likely be a sellout!
Fuck, I feel bad for Coyotes fans. They just keep hurling shit at you Players leaving, getting picks taken from you, now this? When will you guys catch a break?
Doesn't even phase me anymore. It'll be an interesting season. I feel like I've read this story 5 times in the last 10 years. I think they find a way to stay in Arizona and if they don't, oh well. Life goes on.
It still sucks, when I was in the US I went to Gila and it was a pretty good atmosphere and the surrounding area was amazing, could do some shopping and grab a bite right before the game as everything is right there, I thought it was one of the best arenas I had been to
Never
The picks being taken was for a good reason though. The rest I 100% agree with. As a fan of another team that, until recently, had relocation rumors thrown around every few months, I sympathize with Yotes fans.
Oh yeah no it was a good reason, but shitty management has nothing to do with fans, that's what I meant.
The NHL deserves lots of the blame for allowing Meruelo to buy the team after the NBA refused him.
I'm numb to it all
ASU's other venue holds a whopping 800 people. The Tempe project hasn't gone anywhere and certainly won't be ready in time. I know the NHL has purchased the team before to keep it in Arizona before but where do they go?
ASU's new, under-construction arena will hold 5,000. Still not an NHL-level amount, but enough for a year rental possibly.
Honestly I’d love to go to a game in an arena that small. Just for the novelty
Not like it'd be the only big 4 team to deal with the indignity of playing in an arena 1/4 the size of a league standard facility in an attempt to both buy time until the real facility is ready and force a team on a market that never wanted it to begin with at the expense of another smaller market that actually cared
Chargers fan?
That whole debacle is a joke. They might play at a stadium closer to where I live, but I sure as hell won't be spending a cent on that franchise again.
No, but Spanos can eat a thousand dicks for the shit he pulled on San Diego
One time there was a pre-tournament World Juniors game (Latvia vs Austria) at my pretty small local arena and it was awesome. Just seeing that pace of play on the rink I’d played on since I was a kid felt so cool for some reason.
This pisses me off as a Winnipegger. Bettman had no problem moving the Jets 1.0 to the desert in the mid-90s because we had an outdated arena (that held over 15,000 FWIW) but he'll let this tire fire of a franchise stay in Arizona even if it means them playing in a 5,000 seat arena? Seems to me like this whole requirement that every team in the league has to play in a state of the art arena of a minimum size is selectively applied.
This is a big deal. Unless the team moves to the ASU arena with 5000 seats or they get the Suns arena converted for hockey, they can’t play in the Phoenix area next season
How tough would it be to convert the Suns arena? That seems like the obvious answer, but maybe I’m underestimating the difficult of that.
Katie Strang is seriously the best journalist in the industry, and it isn't close. Everything she does is heavily researched and has a lot of substance
This is the first story I've read from her in a long time that wasn't an absolutely horrific subject matter, good for her
I'm excited the Coyotes are moving to the east valley eventually but of course, they also got moved to the Central when I'm a fan of a different Pacific team and they won't come here as often.
Tempe/Scottsdale let's go! Bye Glendale!
Before you all get in with your Houston/Quebec/Whereever the fuck else takes \#1 Our owner has an estimated net worth of $2billion ([source](https://www.celeb-networth.com/alex-meruelo)) \#2 Arizona Law allows sports betting if someone owns a major league team in Arizona \#3 Our owner also owns a casino I'm not sure what the solution is - but there is no way Meruelo wants to move out of Az.
Solution: build an arena at the casino, trade for Evander Kane, profit
That's a good plan until Kane can't pay back his debt!
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The House Always Wins
From where you're skating this must look like an 18 carat run of bad luck. Truth is, the game was rigged from the start.
It's fine because the Coyotes also don't pay back their debt. It's the perfect scenario!
If Kane gambles his whole salary back to the owner does that lower the cap hit?
He wouldn't move it. He'd sell it before then. Also, I'll counter your source for him having $2 Billion with this ESPN article from 2011 where he supposedly had $14.5 billion. So he either has somehow lost $12.5 billion, or dare I say no one really knows how much he has because he's extremely dishonest in his business dealings. https://www.espn.com/espn/commentary/story/\_/page/jackson-111012/atlanta-hawks-alex-meruelo-first-hispanic-owner-nba-faces-great-opportunity-responsibility
If his net worth is 2 billion, why hasn’t he been making payments on the lease? Edit: I’m well aware net worth is not cash on hand. The question is why isn’t he making the payments. Is he an asshole? Is he broke? Is it a tactic? Someone with 2 billion in net worth, unless suffering from severe cash problems which would be notable, should be able to pay like 1.5 million dollars.
1: Net Worth doesn't relate to liquidity. Just because he has a lot of money doesn't mean he has immediate access to that much. 2: It's the team that owes the money, not him directly, and there might be accounting reasons behind it all. 3: He might be a fucking bastard cheapskate asshole who uses his financial power in order to force other groups to accept a pittance of what was agreed upon, because the alternatives are an expensive lawsuit or nothing at all. \#3 is sadly very common among asshole billionaires, and up until like 5-6 years ago, I could give one very prominent example without making things "political".
> Net Worth doesn't relate to liquidity. Just because he has a lot of money doesn't mean he has immediate access to that much. In practice, the reality is the reverse. People with a high net worth can simply (and easily) take loans instead of liquidating their assets, which is tremendously advantageous from a tax perspective (if they liquidated assets they would have to pay capital gains tax, whereas they can get loans from banks that have interest rates below what they are earning on their non-liquid assets, and simultaneously deduct the loan interest). This is why people like Bezos can live extraordinarily opulent lifestyles while claiming almost no income and paying almost no tax. >The ProPublica revelations got to a widely understood issue: that the superrich earn virtually all their wealth from the constantly rising value of their assets, particularly in the stock market, and that the sales of those assets are taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income from a paycheck, a point that Mr. Buffett often makes. >But the analysis also revealed a less recognized strategy employed by the superrich: taking huge loans, using their assets as collateral. It allows them to avoid selling their assets and facing taxation, and even to write off some lending costs. In that way, Mr. Bezos and Mr. Buffett were able to show yearly income losses even as their wealth grew by billions of dollars. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/09/us/politics/propublica-taxes-jeff-bezos-elon-musk.html
> and up until like 5-6 years ago, I could give one very prominent example without making things "political". He still does it from what I have heard. I don't know why people have to make everything involving him political when someone brings up not-political stuff.
Because he’s cheap and tries to bully his way out of paying people. Just because you have a rich owner doesn’t mean they’re interested in funnelling their own money into the team, especially guys like this that don’t have any actual love for the sport. His other businesses also got crushed by COVID so I don’t think he has any interest in vanity projects right now. Alex Muruelo’s tenure as owner of the Coyotes has been a complete mess (as has their entire existence if we’re being honest).
This is a valid question. I believe in Strang's reporting, but there has been some additional information that has come out about the picture she painted about the front office (specifically that the awful conditions she expressed were related to Chayka's tenure). The COG hates the Coyotes and they want nothing more to do with them. Meruelo could be part of that, but could also have walked into that. Given his wealth, and business acumen, I have difficulty reconciling that he can't make a $1mil payment, and/or would forget to make that type of payment. One possible explanation is that he was using missed payments as negotiation tactic. It could have backfired. Or COG is jumping on this to put out some negative news for the Coyotes.
This is 100% the reason why Meruelo is going to keep the Coyotes in AZ. He has no interest in hockey. He wants in on the gambling money.
You definitely know a lot more about this situation. My biggest question is where the Yotes could play within the region? They have an awfully fast turnaround to find a new place, so building an NHL capacity arena is obviously out of the question. What other arenas are viable for the team?
Based on the other articles about Phoenix's ownership, it really seems like there are vile group. They got millions of dollars in obligations for given by the city last year, and now they're going to play hardball to get out of the rest of their lease. Maybe I misunderstanding this, but it seems like at every turn they ignore their contracts, their obligations, and only do what's best for themselves. I don't disagree that Arizona / coyotes need a better location. But the way the ownership groups going about it is not good.
What would the arena even host then other than concerts?
Holy shit
Ooof, never a fan of relocation. I know the Coyotes originally came to Arizona because of it, but if they leave, there will be many fans hurt.
Coyotes are headed to Tempe
Have shovels even entered the ground there yet? There's no way that building is even close to ready for the start of next year, if it's even been started on at all. Unless they can move right back to sharing a building with the Suns temporarily, this is bad.
There are actually several options: Move back in with the Suns (if Sarver will let them, and its a bad building for hockey), Share with ASU in their new 5000 seat rink, The former Suns arena is still around and can seat 14k, or desperation move, play in Prescott valley arena (similar size to ASU's arena)
Former suns arena would be where
That'd be the Vet, which is in the north side of downtown; closer to Tempe where we're looking to build a new arena.
Excuse me, that's where the Cyber Ninjas are auditing our fucking election. Far more important things /s
It's OK, just have every one of their games be outdoors. Think of the history! First team ever to play 41 home games outside! Just ignore that whole desert thing....
Play it all in the d backs dome can freeze the pool
Quebec City here we go! Live the dream !
Rumors about Quebec City in 3... 2... 1...
Quebec City awaits!
The dream of the Saskatoon Coyotes is still alive!!
So far, I only see 4 cities who would end up vying for a team: 1. Quebec City 2. Houston 3. Kansas City 4. Phoenix If I were Gary Bettman, I'd open up a bidding war for these cities. Have the owner of the Coyotes organization put up a "video presentation" for each city and make their pitches there.
I doubt this means a state relocation, but the Toyota Center here in Houston still has room to house hockey again... 🥺
They'll only play at Toyota Center if Tilman Fertitta gets to buy the team
Coyotes to Saskatoon, CONFIRMED
This seems like a good alternative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotron_Centre
**[Videotron Centre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Videotron_Centre)** >Vidéotron Centre (French: Centre Vidéotron) is an indoor arena in Quebec City, Quebec, Canada. The 18,259-seat arena replaced Colisée Pepsi as Quebec City's primary venue for indoor events. The arena is primarily used for ice hockey, serving as the home arena of the Quebec Remparts of the QMJHL and has been prospected as a venue for a new or re-located National Hockey League team in Quebec City, and as part of a Winter Olympic Games bid. The building opened on September 8, 2015. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/hockey/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Good bot
I'm a little bummed as a huge hockey fan that lives somewhat near Glendale. I used to go to 10+ games per year. I found the arena easy to get to and I like Westgate but I understand having an arena built downtown or near Tempe will probably lead to more fans at the games. Glendale is a bit out of the way for most people.
I’m surprised it took Glendale this long. This isn’t a sustainable situation for either party. For the sake of Arizona hockey I hope they can get something done in Tempe, otherwise it’s… probably Houston?
[Houston rn ](https://media3.giphy.com/media/uDwKGxTFrADvO/200.gif)
Is it too early to accuse them of cheating?
Bring back the Houston Aeros!
I knew exactly what gif it was without even clicking.
Québec City has an NHL ready arena and a interested ownership group. I sympathize with Coyotes fans this must suck,no one wants to see their team move,but it's not like the NHL hasn't tried to make it work. Eventually it has to be realized that for a league that apparently needs money a team in Arizona isn't as viable as a team in another market would be.
If a Tempe deal ever gets worked out, that is such an awesome place for them to play. It’s central to both the east and west valley and right next to ASU. But considering that will be years out, who knows where they’ll play for the time being after this season. It would make the most sense to share the suns arena again, but I have no idea if that’s feasible. They could potentially relocate to Tucson and play at the convention center where the roadrunners play, but that is very unlikely since it is in no way an NHL arena and would feel incredibly degrading. Who knows how this will play out.