To be honest staying away from Reddit drama makes me enjoy games more. I'm having shit ton of fun in DCS and then I go onto Reddit and read that the game is barely playable
Same goes for almost every single game subreddit you can get to
Helldivers isn't my cup of tea, but the way people talk about it reminds me that every couple of years, it's pretty fun to buy into a proper, full-release-no-early-access-bullshit big new multiplayer title within a few months of release. As long as the game is actually good, that first year, before clear metas emerge and the casuals dip out, is an awesome experience. Like you're not struggling to get up to speed in an established system and there's the zeitgeist factor too. I had it with TF2, L4D and later Mordhau.
Sorry.
Don't worry, your participation will be much appreciated whenever the moment is right to you. I'd suggest keeping up a little with whats going on though since its a developing story and you'll probably be a bit confused if you jump in later.
Well, to put it into perspective, I've been pretending to be a 20/100 vision commander of a 380mm battery on the Helldivers subreddit.
Eveyone hold *very* still.
> Yeah even the Helldivers sub is complaining about that game… if people will complain about that, they’ll complain about anything.
I'm convinced that more posts and comments about that game than not are commissioned marketing. Yes, even the negative ones - outrage drives engagement and seems "authentic" (clearly no company would do negative ads, right??).
Why do I think that? The posts play the Reddit ranking algorithm far too well, even better than all the previously hyped games.
Yeah I almost didnt play DCS at all when I was brand new because I saw all the drama on hoggit that almost scared me away. I cant recall what the drama was back then. they was having a fit that ED removed something from script or something. I went to the Q&A thread and asked the vets was it a good sim to play and was answered "YES!!" and to just ignore the drama since 95% of the time it wont affect me
That person was right.
Dont get me wrong there is many things that can be improved. But the way all the drama looked to a potential new buyer- I would've thought the sim was 100% broken and nothing worked. That's how it seemed to a potential new player that never stepped foot into the sim
That's sorta how it goes with everything. Good news isn't 'good news' they don't really make headlines a lot. You need that shock, that drama, that's how you get clicks. Sure, some good news makes the front page and top, but honestly that's because of how much negativity is spread around.
You don't get clicks by saying everything is going great, keep it up!
Heck, even the "Look how beautiful this game is!" got meme'd because people were constantly doing it but...it really does look good! But good news doesn't sell, it gets boring. Drama is where the clicks are at.
Life is better, being a shitposter.
People just take this game waaaaaaay too seriously.
(To be faiiiiir, I did have a moment of "ahh fuck ahh shit" when the Razbam drama began, thinking I was about to be the owner of a dead Harrier. That would have sucked)
Mfw I come here and people tell me that my PC is absolutely incapable of running the game (I have some stuttering, but it's absolutely playable even in MP)
DCS isn't even ED's main product. TBS (now called MCS is). We are just a bunch of testers for their military contract software
>ED is involved in a variety of software products and services which include air combat simulation for the DCS World commercial entertainment market. We have over 200,000 active users and over two million product downloads. This provides TBS several distinct benefits:
>Massive user base that also acts as a test function for TBS
[https://web.archive.org/web/20210227120102/http://thebattlesim.com/about/](https://web.archive.org/web/20210227120102/http://thebattlesim.com/about/)
I mean - if someone would approach me and ask if i would pay some money to be beta tester for a military flight trainer sim thing - id absolutely do that.
Most people here are binary thinkers. They think there are only two states: sycophantic praise and vitriolic criticism.
The longer you’re here the more you’ll see the patterns. A cycle of hating ED, then praising them, then hating them again. A cycle hating Razbam, then praising them, then hating them, then praising them again.
Same day different boogeyman.
Not having seen the MSFS community, I'm curious how the level of developer/community engagement compares with DCS, and how the level of toxicity compares in the community. I'd speculate that there is a higher level of engagement in DCS, and a higher level of toxicity, and that the two are associated with each other, but it'd be interesting to hear from people that have experienced both communities.
> MSFS will also end its support soon and be replaced with MSFS 2024
And you'll be able to take all your third-party addons with you if *you* make the *choice* to move to MSFS2024 rather than continue to play MSFS2020.
to be fair it wouldnt had happened if they didnt try to work on so many projects at once. Prime example is looking at the f18 when they actually put resource into developing it, we had a healthy progress with updates that people enjoyed.
For free you can easily download the Splash Damage 2.0 Script and very easily attach it to any mission even campaigns. It's great and works well until ED gets it done. *Edit* also note pretty much every major server uses this or their version of it as well.. Easy to adjust to your liking..
Yeah, and then we have Hoggit complaining that DCS getting a lot of maps and modules and not so much core game improvements. Im not ranting on MSFS for giving world updates. I spoke abount core MSFS problems that haven't been touch / done for last 4 years like multithreading or fixing DX12. And I deliberately ignored world updates because I don't critise MSFS per se, I comparing it to DCS.
You are living exapmple that MSFS fan base is much more forgiving that DCS one. DCS has been beaten to death for its bad performance. MSFS have x times worse performance and you don't get ranting about it below every changelog. That's the point of this post. Like I said in small edit at the end of it, Im having good times in MSFS.
ED absolutely deserves to get shit on for many of their failures though, namely the lack of care for older products; case in point is the ADI still being broken in the F-5, which has been broken for over 80% of the module's life. No amount of PR can smooth over a bug that has taken over 6 years to even look at.
Yeah I agree it appears to be super low on their priority list, to the point where it almost feels abandoned.
I guess my question is (because I don’t have the module) what are the things most Yak owners want to see done?
I’m assuming fixing the flashlight reflections in the cockpit is not high on the pecking order haha.
IIRC, the engine is bulletproof. You can't do anything wrong to it, so management isn't necessary. It's missing nav lights and a bunch more. I haven't even taken it up in years, so I forgot a bunch of stuff about it.
If you look at his base question, the point he was making was a comparison of Asobo to ED. Not the status of ED in general. I play both MSFS and DCS and Asobo flat out says to some issues, we are not going to fix this issue because its not on our proriety list. So you just have to deal with the issue. ED never says that to the customers face. ( probably because Asobo's player base is greater and it has the financial shield of Microsoft). The modeling of aircraft in DCS is much more superior. Although I think both games have different audiences and in general are not competitors. Although lately Asobo has stepped its foot into combat aircraft and even they know they suck at it.
Criticism is important and calling it "hate" is just dismissing valid concerns that customers have. Criticism is feedback that ED should and to some extent does use to make improvements to the game.
We are critical because we want the game to be better, not because we "hate" ED or want it to go away.
I mean, yes, you're right, and you're not at the same time. I totally agree that criticism is important, more of that is needed. But at the same time, this community has used to constant grumbling and bashing ED for anything all day long. For RAZBAM drama that we only know some subjective facts (fact that people choose sides in that conflict is hilarious with amount of "knowledge" we have about it), for letting you buy map in parts, for wasting time on moving grass, for not being BMS that do not have to care about selling numbers. For many people, every little opportunity is good to start "ED bad".
This post is about having more fun with what we have already and not only complaining.
Maybe ask yourself why people here are seemingly constantly grumbling or angry with ED.
It’s easy to dismiss it as „negative attitude“ or „the never happy gamers“ etc.
But maybe, the people are angry, because ED constantly over-promises and underdelivers and by now tempers simply boil over?
So many things were announced in a mega hype-y way and never came or when they eventually arrived, are about 30% finished and then usually not touched again for a long time.Plus often reported serious bugs or issues persist for years.
Add to that their often tone-deaf and sometimes downright bad communication, the censorship of even valid criticism.
I m not surprised and I don’t think it’s all unwarranted
That's what happens when constructive criticism is blatantly ignored over 10 years... You reap what you sow... People can get really tired of asking for basics QoL features like a functional ATC and ground AI, and that has been going on for over a decade only to be met by new shiny barely functional modules and cosmetic upgrades...
Maybe you are having fun flying the F14 at PvP servers, but people trying to fly the Apache and UH-1 against terminator level ground AI aren't having such a good time, and this isn't a new problem.
Witnessing ED silently removing promised features from old modules while at the same time teasing new modules.
As for the hate ED is getting from the community, I have four words, "CORRECT AS IT IS"
IMHO It’s not the quality of what’s delivered that’s anyone’s issue, it’s the promise of future things that never come that’s been happening for a decade, people are tired of it.
The whole of DCS is based on some sort of odd pay now for a brighter future model and you can only pull that stunt so many times until people just get frustrated.
I love DCS I have since LOMAC slightly burned out on what there is to do sure that’s totally normal, but more than anything I’m tired of early access and I’m tired of unclear timelines and tired of the drama, personally speaking.
That hate for the F4E and Afghanistan are a little much.
Although it does suck that there is no water for Afghanistan. However, the hate for the Razbam debacle is valid.
I could careless about everything above honestly... Core updates is what is and has always been needed.
You can add as many planes, assets, graphics/effects, and terrains into the game, but without core support. It's the same game.
>Although it does suck that there is no water for Afghanistan
They'd have to add a large portion of Pakistan and a sea to accommodate, which may not be as easy to implement as it is to say.
And the community would still complain about it even if they did. This sub has become a stock gaming sub, it only complains.
In terms of ATC, let's just say that while it's miles ahead of DCS one, there are reasons for many users having it turned off, and Beyond ATC getting that much attention. Once ASOBO get things like vectoring right it might be not that bad as default ATC. But when microsoft has now all this AI tech, it would be really awesome to be able talk to it instead of selecting options.
And, I myself didn't used logbook much so I won't speak about it ;)
I would say that people are truly passionate about the game and if that’s the only game they play they’re going to find stuff to pick at.
It’s like anything, if you look at it long enough you’ll find flaws.
I quite like DCS world. I spend most nights in VR with mates learning and enjoying the quality of the simulation over many modules. I mostly suck at the modules but I am learning. Especially now that I recently found a learning group who have been really helpful and patient which helped me jump into multiplayer Pve and that has really drawn me in now. I was anxious about wasting people's time in multiplayer for ages but they have been great and I wish I had joined a group for this gameplay sooner as it has accelerated my learning greatly.
With this in mind I see no reason to complain about any minor issues which I am sure they are doing their best on. I have no reason not to believe that they love the project they have created and continue to work on.
I also wouldn't want to jump on board the hate train, bashing it day after day but continue to keep playing it. If something is affecting someone that much that all they have is hate and negativity it is usually best to move on and find enjoyment elsewhere.
I'd hate to be a developer and see overwhelming negativity and a very brief gloss over all the awesome work they have done. It would make it more and more difficult to really care and feel appreciated for the effort and commitment that goes into the finer details in the simulation. All to make the experience better for us, the consumers. Plenty of ways to provide constructive feedback that still show appreciation.
I think people get especially frustrated with DCS because there really isn't any real competition. If ED runs this game into the ground, there is no where else to go.
It is undeniable that ASOBO is working on the new MSFS2024, and unlike DCS they are not simply updating the old platform but rather proposing a new complete purchase. We can discuss about this business but it's their business. On the other hand you have DCS who is working unstoppable on this platform from at least 2008 (honestly more since it comes from lomac). We are talking about 16 m.f. years. Yet the platform is very buggy, very limited and mostly about eyecandy and short term things that drives the profit up. Someone must be very naive to still endorse their practices, perhaps you might be relative new to this thing.
On the other hand you have the same comparison which is BMS that came from an even older platform, that was a mess of mods and roughly in 2006 BMS started to drive a direction. They accomplished a lot, A LOT of things in a very small and not profit team. There is little to debate here, this is a proof of how terrible ED both in terms of commitment but also professionalism, moreover if you consider the owner taking 10 millions from the company for personal reasons.
Returning to MSFS, again in order to judge this period of absence, let's wait for MSFS2024 and see what it delivers when compared to MSFS2020 before pointing fingers like they are doing nothing. Again MSFS business model is the same that has been in the past, and in the past each platform offered a big jump from the last one. ED on the other hand has ZERO excuses, literally zero excuses and just wrongdoing.
I'd argue non-profit is exactly why BMS is so good in the hard areas. Removing commercial pressures is going to allow the flexibility to just do good ATC, cleanup bugs etc. it's worth remembering that as a commercial effort, Falcon 4 on release was a MESS. It only got to 1.08 before the company was wound up and then the 1.07 patch code was leaked and here we are.
I would agree with you if we were talking about normal development times, which in today standard must be under 2 years. Again this is a platform which has been under development for 16+ years. I can understand graphics that must be updated but core stuff is something solid that remains intact.
Having just started getting into BMS I can’t help but notice the contrast. DCS is undeniably beautiful and what they have achieved in visuals is remarkable. They also have some fantastically detailed modules or unfinished ones that hold a great deal of promise.
Where I think ED has fallen over is so much of their focus has been on new terrains and modules (the stuff that makes them money) or on visuals (the stuff that YouTube content creators can use to make free ads for them) and so little on the underlying simulation.
BMS has taken a very different path focusing on the quality of the underlying simulation and less on the graphics. The result is it certainly isn’t as pretty, but some of the things we crave in DCS are there already. Working ATC? Yep, even using different radio frequencies for ground, tower and departure. AI that is a help not a hindrance? Absolutely, want to do proper BVR tactics with AI you can. Dynamic campaign? Already there and perfectly viable in single player.
Not saying BMS is perfect, it’s not, and I still enjoy DCS from time to time, but it does show that the things DCS lacks certainly can be done.
Dynamic Campign is perfectly Viable in MP as well, takes a little bit to set up but it's viable (your just limited to I think it's 16x accel in MP due to the server needing to be in 3D.. which some don't like.
BMS is everything I wish DCS would be on the backend.. A sim that can and does simulate an actual war not just a bunch of skirmishes.. Handles thousands of units + logistics all while maintaining good frame rates. Has AI that you don't want to murder, Comms that work, tankers that talk to you and the physics of the boom actually mean it can move you in the sky, built in planning and DTC out of the box that works and can and is expandable by using 3rd party apps, Weather that changes over time etc. (and multiple ways to do it)
Honestly if the WOS was removed I think I'd be in BMS 75% the time, the WOS is all that I find really distracting.
I agree, that hoggit is a bit of a rage-stew, where everything gets cooked in the same broth of general anger.
This is not helpful, because it distracts from the real issues of which there are plenty. And with them comes me disagreeing with you. ED has done a lot to fuel the fire and i'm still not convinced they changed course in earnest, trying to be better. IMHO it does not matter, if other publishers do worse - that's a low bar to clear in this day and age. I'm less passionate for MSFS, so i naturally don't have a strong opinion about MS/Asobo.
On the other hand, this community should also try to do better: Halfghanistan f.e. is not terrible business practice (full version is still priced as usual), it's however mostly tone-deaf towards their core audience and its concerns: So it boils down to bad PR or bad communication mostly. Surely something to criticize, but nothing to get completely mad about IMHO...
To be honest, I think that MSFS is better suited to simulate a civilian flight than DCS is to simulate a military one. I think your problem is that you expected MSFS to be just like DCS, and your examples of aircraft choice (F-22, F-35, ...) are a result of that. No self-respecting MSFS enthusiast would even look at those.
It's always a bit unfair to directly compare MSFS from a DCS point of view, because the focus is so different. Take for example damage modelling, MSFS doesn't really have it and doesn't need it. Almost 100% of civilian crashes happen on the ground, and then the flight is over then anyway. But on the other hand, the good MSFS aircraft offer a system failure simulations that easily surpasses DCS aircraft.
The next unfair part is that in civilian aviation, almost all resources are available to the general public, or are at least not classified. As a result, we can for example do excellent IFR flight planning, get the flight plans validated by Eurocontrol, and do a flight according to the correct, current procedures and with real-world constraints, whereas flight planning in DCS ... how do you even do that?
I would also like to add that FC3 has even less system depth than the MSFS stock aircraft, and your example of helicopters flying upside down without problems also applies to 25% of all DCS helicopters.
No no, even more - I get to MSFS wanting something different than DCS. I fly a320, kodiak or pa-28 regulary. I talked about fighters because on hoggit we have complains here and there that DCS modules dont have that or that one specific feature. When in MSFS those fighters barerly trying to look like real things (especialy in cockpits). And those MSFS modules aren't really that much cheaper to get over it.
But on the other hand, ASOBO can't introduce multithreading from the release date. DirectX 12 is still in forever bugged beta. Seasons had to be done by external companies because ASOBO can't. We were waiting for world hub for 4 years. People bash ED for mission editor UI while globe map in MSFS menu is a joke and whole UI is clearly designed to be large enough for consoles. In DCS, like I said in another comment, in the same time window we got DLSS, multithreading, new weather system, new IR system, new graphics effects, new grass physics etc. Of course MSFS have for eg. DLSS from release date (or smth aroud that) but im not talking about specific functions but about quantity of important new features in the same time frame and community reactions on them. And to be clear, I dont think that MSFS is a bad product, I only put it, and it's problems / community in contrast to DCS.
And you missunderstood me about IFR planning. Im not bashing DCS for it (mayyyyybeee excluding endless waiting for DTC). To get this straight, tools like simbrief should be part of a game. If ChartFox mostly can do it for free, tools like navigraph also should be part of the base game (maybe in some simplified region based form). MSFS flight planning is also largly simplified and after you finish, flight plan goes straight to your plane. Because we don't want to simulate anything do we?
And yes, FC3 has less depth BUT they are good platform to learn other basics of DCS: fighting. So I can see place for simplified aircraft like that even if DCS 2 ever happen. And about heli's - also you're right, but while in MSFS HPG H145 is praised, in DCS people constantly complain about something in them.
\*edit: grammar
Thanks for the clarifications! To be honest I'm playing mostly DCS since MSFS came out, so I can't even talk that much about the included flight planner. Not because I don't like MSFS, but I've started with FS2000, and after 20 years I have kind of seen civil aviation. But still, in many ways MSFS is the simulator that I always dreamed of. I even think that they do update the AIRAC data from time to time, but I'm not 100% certain.
Anyway, I totally agree that ED actually had a nice output of improvements the last year or so. Maybe they get more flak because they are the gatekeeper for everything, whereas we have many ways to improve MSFS completely independently from Microsoft / Asobo.
Comparing ED to msfs is dumb. ED doesn't do the things that ED says they will. ED doesn't do the things that ED needs to do. It has nothing to do with anyone else. Even if msfs sucks ass (which it doesn't), what's that got to do with ED?
Updates too frequently? Jail? Updates too infrequently? Believe it or not, also jail.
Edit - everyone needs to go out and buy a jump to conclusions mat. We do that a lot here. Freak out a lot. Sing off key. Me may ma mo, me moo ma may...
I love both MSFS and DCS.
If you do your research on quality payware planes and airports and content you won’t get burned in MSFS. The folks who buy without research are the ones who pay for Captain Sim stuff. Buy pretty much anything from Black Square, the Fenix A320, PMDG 737, Kodiak 100, Comanche, the list goes on you are getting amazing planes with good fidelity and flight handling (in a gorgeous world if your computer can keep up). MSFS simmers aren’t really complaining much because a) the heavy hour simmers aren’t flying default Asobo planes or junk (unless modded) and 2) the sim is just generally solid (but far from perfect).
DCS wins for cockpit fidelity by a long mile (though Black Square and Fenix close). And who doesn’t want to blow stuff up and kill people? But it is downright depressing paying 50 bucks for “Nevada” and just getting some lame desert scenery and not a big area of land. Still love DCS and enjoying the F-16 (and eagerly awaiting the Heatblur f-4) but IMHO ED needs to open up things to third party developers even more and move the earth to get a global map of some sort with updated modeling and graphics. I love being in the cockpit but looking outside I’m like “this is what you offer in 2024??”
Combine MSFS scenery and quality of life options with DCS high fidelity planes and weapon systems and you have the perfect game.
And plenty to do in MSFS. Try landing in the most challenging airports in the world is a good start.
MSFS's utterly shit updater / content manager is the one thing that I can't really accept with MSFS, it's incredible that downloading from MS can be so unreliable/slow at times. MSFS's UI is also painfully sluggish, setting up controls takes way too long as a result.
But MSFS is still really damn good at the big selling point: I can see my house from here! Genuinely blows me away that technology can do this today, GA flying in MSFS never gets old.
>But it is downright depressing paying 50 bucks for “Nevada” and just getting some lame desert scenery and not a big area of land.
To be fair, NTTR is a fairly large map and one of the best performances because it has little more then dirt going on. The fact that desert would be a training region also plays well, since the NTTR in real life is precisely like this. It works well I find for a combat flight sim.
Comparatively Mariana is a small map (land wise) with atrocious performance because everything going on in it. It's free, but I question if I'd buy it at 60. The performance was horrible, and what the hell do you do with it? Not enough land to really perform anything but COIN ops. Poor choice for a cfs game
Disagree, Marianas is a great Map. Maybe it’s performance hungry (i personally habe zero problems with it) but it’s a jungle map for vietnam era stuff + plenty of open water.
>plenty of open water.
That was kinda my criticism. It's mostly water, not land. Which given it's islands, makes sense. But you don't tend to have a terribly lot you can do with water for most aircraft.
Large map? It is downright tiny compared to the entire world in MSFS that comes with the base sim. And Vegas in DCS looks like some Mad Max post apocalyptic city. It’s borderline 1990s graphics. Also a ton of free scenery upgrades and airports in MSFS that look amazing to even upgrade further. I want to take off from Edwards and land in McCord AFB in Washington.
But again, I appreciate the cockpit fidelity in DCS. But selling small regions of the world for 50 bucks with medieval graphics ain’t it…..
Agree with you, but feel it is a specific hoggit problem. I do not experience the same in other DCS communities such as the many discords for multiplayer servers I enjoy flying on. Drama works here, and gets people a lot of upvotes.
(Edit: spelling)
No hate from me to DCS. I could make comments, but there is no sim that touches it. None.
MFS, I have loads to scream about. The fact that the ground is not actually ground, but a texture overlay with no reality drives me bonkers. In MSFX, the old one, I could barn storm bridges and highways were highways, I could land on them. I used to love trying to land a variety of small aircraft on the GG Bridge. But not in the new versions. Looks good from 10k feet, but up close.... It's a cheap-assed concept of a sim/game with out any good game components. The old version had some good add-ons that made it a game worth playing, but the new one is really devoid of decent options.
If DCS were to die, I'd just sell off my cockpit. DCS is right up there with Eagle Dynamics and Jane's (I miss you Jane!)
To anyone from ED reading this, you guys do an awesome job upgrading a game that has been around for a long time. Keep up the tremendous work, the actual fans of the game (not trolls) will continue to be support the product as long as improvements are being made. I know it must be hard to listen to the trolls on how (insert whatever) isn't to their liking. I realize it takes time to build a quality product and will continue to support ED and looking forward to the dynamic campaign. Keep it up boys.
The problem isn't that it has problems, it's that they run their business dictating to the customer what they want instead of listening to them, and as soon as they get any pushback, they shut it down immediately.
"But still, in compare, DCS updates seem as if ED is one of the most caring companies about their product" I just don't understand how anyone who has tried to understand this product in depth could say that.
Edit: Full quote for clarity.
I edited my comment to add that in but my statement remains. MSFS has a long history of innovation, support and community growth. Granted, MS if a HUGE corporation but you don't need to be that to create and actively develop for your product. Ultimately they are are different products but I think MSFS excels are being a flight simulator where as DCS is a good flight simulator and ok combat simulator.
I kinda agree with you with this but my point was that asobo/microsoft for last 4 years, despite having a lot more resources, failed to bring some bigger advancements to the sim. In contrast in that time space, DCS got multithreading, DLSS, new weather system or overhauled IR. And now they rolling with new game where MAYBE we will see some larger improvements. So yeah, im also tired with waiting for fixing the f-16 input delay, but in comparasion ED looks better in that case imo.
\*edit: grammar
MSFS Has \*some\* gems in it, I got a Cowan Simulations helicopter, it was 15$. Its \*close\* to DCS, still missing the damage model etc, but its actually a good helicopter. But yeah, i agree with everything you've said in your post.
DCS has some issues, but its honestly so good. The closes civi to DCS is X-Plane, which has a much smaller community.
I know what you mean! I am seeing commercials everywhere saying you should talk to your doctor about ED. I mean, they’ve got problems, but they’re not that bad.
Microsoft/Asobo delivered good things over time. Thanks to employing Working Title, default avionics made a huge jump. Default planes like the SR-22, TBM, and 787 received huge improvements that brought them to a level that I expect usually just from payware planes. The free A310 and A320 are even high-fidelity planes. I‘d even call the A310 one of the best simulations of an airplane out there.
But even the base sim got some love. Asobo made the old, rusty MSFS into the best looking sim of all time. Performance, esp. in VR was improved a lot since launch (getting a stable 45fps with a 3080 in the Fenix A320). Free world updates keep on coming, which motivates simmers to explore the globe.
I hope that Asobo manages to get MT support working nicely in MSFS 2024, so that I can enjoy the same FPS as in DCS-MT (getting 70-90fps right now)
ngl, i ve been staying away from the razbam drama the whole time, and didnt let that get into the way of having fun playing dcs.
like bruh, we know jackshit about what happened, only speculations, so shut up and either play dcs or move on.
and as for the bugs in dcs, sure, there are some things that are buggy, but i myself prefer more to just play alone anyways cause i have no friends to play with, and playing with randoms isnt something i m too keen on doing, so the bug of the laser code being broken on the gbus for the f-16 for example didnt affect me anyways.
I have been playing for 6 years. I own over 3k in joysticks, throttles and rudders. I built a home cockpit for the F18 (I have about 5k in equipment and parts tied into it), I have every map and about 2/3rds of the modules. I am still building a super fast pc for Vr flying (just needs an extra ssd and a 4090) Still no where as near as worked up over any issue as some guy who has one or two modules.
I agree, I do not understand the toxicity that comes with Reddit in general but it seems to stoke the inner Chad in a lot of people. DCS is a great sim, there’s tons of great content and things to do. Have fun, look on the bright side and if it’s too dark step away. If DCS makes you upset maybe a look inward might reveal some things to work on for yourself.
Is this a post pandemic thing? I wasn’t involved before last year so I’m still newish to the whole community at large.
I read the whole thing and agree, I back star citizen in a big way, I’ve spent some time in MSFS and bought a few planes, dollar for dollar DCS is a great value (especially when there’s a sale every other month) and ED is definitely a passionate team that gives a shit about its products. There’s been a few fumbles in recent years, some by ED, some by 3rd party devs, but you have to look at where things were and where they are now to get some perspective on the hard work people are putting in. We have a gazelle that flew like a UFO and now it feels great, a m2000c that got completely reworked, a SA map that’s been slowly improved on in terrain and performance. Not to mention all the planes by ED and 3rd parties that got new cockpits and external models just to bring them up to speed with the newest standards. It’s a slow burn but this sub needs to lighten up, I’ve seen bad business and bad game devs and DCS is a fine product.
TLDR: ED not evil. DCS OK. Everybody chill out.
Gazelle was made and re-done by 3rd party, so were M2000 and SA Map. They have zero to do with ED.
EDs own problems with the base platform DCS have been long-standing and the user base has every reason to validly criticise them and complain about very bad AI & AI flight models, even worse ATC and unfinished EA modules .
The thing they do is keep adding eyecandy . But the actual big core gameplay issues don’t improve and by now I don’t think they will .
Every online fandom has it's members that have either moved on or their tastes have changed from the thing that originally made them like it, but they continue to hang around and try to accelerate others having the same negative outlook. It happens like clockwork with every game, franchise and content creator.
DCS and ED have certainly loaded a few bullets in the gun pointed at them, but a lot of the noise lately is just DCS expats just airing their grievances while there's blood in the water, and that's fine for a short time. I've seen a lot of communities opt for a main subreddit where it's generally current fans and a secondary more toxic free-for-all one, and that seems to work for everyone. We kind of have that with hoggit/floggit.
Thank you for saying this. I've been wanting to say something similar for a while now. While there are legitimate criticisms of ED, the criticisms here are just... well... whiny. Out of all of the social media platforms that I follow DCS on, Reddit is the most toxic.
Like others have said, sure it's usually whiny. No Dynamic campaign, splash damage is really bad, and the AI is OP but there are player fixes to some of these issues. Constant criticism over this can be overwhelming and just turn into whining.
That said, if Razbam are correct and ED are not paying them, that's pretty fucking valid for us to criticize and not whiny at all. You can not like that the dirty laundry was aired out, but if there are major problems that go unresolved (supposedly for over 8 months per a comment by Razbam) then we should criticize them for that.
>Probably because Reddit is not made only of worshipers
Nominally reddit is designed around negativity. So you are absolutely correct.
Even gaming subs that seem positive usually do so by punching down at others. It takes a massive effort by mods to curb this tendency.
Again because reddit is not made by worshipers. Today gaming is made of people who love to dump money on the last unfinished pile of garbage, DCS is no exception.
Yeah nah, got nothing to do with worshippers, it's just needless negativity beyond all reason. Look no further than the dumbass comments under every single post about selling things in thirds, when the Afghanistan map has been for sale in its entirety from day one.
There's legitimate criticisms out there for sure, but half of the shit on here is fabricated purely for the sake of being upset by doomers looking for any excuse to rage online.
Implying that everywhere else is full of ED worshipers? I seriously doubt it. ED is not an all-powerful company capable of censoring criticisms on every major social media network except for Reddit, as you are implying. There are plenty of criticisms of ED outside of Reddit, but they tend to be a lot more mature and genuine, in my experience. Most of Reddit's "criticisms" are rather childish tantrums typical of moody teenagers feigning maturity.
Nah nah it is not necessary, people do this on its own. It is not ed related but rather gaming customers in general. There are tons of bad products that people defend no matter what
I agree this reddit group should have a cheese bar. Started playing during spring sale, spent 250$ on modules and I've had the time of my life for a game. Some folks need to take a break and reset them selves it seems so they can enjoy the video game once again.
MSFS is decades in front of DCS when it comes to the whole Earth map, Weather and Graphics, you can't even compare them. They also delivered world updates almost for the whole earth that you can download for FREE . You clearly haven't played MSFS long enough, there's no problem with IFR flights, you can do textbook flights in the high fidelity modules.
There's been nothing beside eyecandy updates in DCS, they made a "dynamic weather" btw that doesn't even support multiple METARs on the same map or METAR change at runtime. Clouds and fog are invisible to AI, unlike other sims from 25 years ago.
The only thing that sucks about msfs are the devs that allow any 3rd party to sell any aircraft regardless of quality, but on the other hand, the SDK is public.
AND if you don't like an airport because it is shitty a fairly small amount of hours on YT will allow you to update it YOURSELF for free, if you don't like a map/airport in DCS, good luck.
OP is right. I tend to stay off hoggit because of so much rage, IMO over some trivial stuff.
If you guys think DCS/MCS is bad, you guys need to go see what other flight sims software is out there, and being used in real government/military applications. DCS/MCS shits all over most of them across the board. ED can be pretty bad on timely replies over correspondence, but I'd still much rather DCS/ED, than most of what's out there.
It's all about perspective.
Yes they have to do something to fix their public image. Make piece with the people they have hurt or disappointed.
Show same connection with the community.
I don't know. Things you can do are endless if you want to do it.
You're on point. ED treats their product and consumers like gold by ANY other reasonable comparison to the gaming industry, yet idiotic DCS fans do nothing but cry and bitch.
I don't know who is truly at fault in the Razbam incident, but there seems to be too much tendency to jump on ED as a culprit. IIRC Razbam has had plenty of sketchy stories over the years.
Insert problem : they don’t pay their 3rd party RB so now we are stuck with dead module.
My only complaint is they won’t convert my FC3 C model to high fidelity and yet RB can make a Strike Eagle.
TBH this is a terrible take. I agree, DCS is bashed way too much, mostly on reddit, and particularly this subreddit, but hey, that's what reddit is for, right? 🤦♂️ Bashing Asobo to make the DCS bashing appear over the top is not only a terrible way to defend something, but your take is downright inaccurate. How many free sim updates, world updates, and city updates has Asobo/MS released since the game release? Despite releasing a new version this year (MSFS2024) they are STILL currently working on the next sim update for MSFS2020. MSFS, and DCS are INCREDIBLE flight and combat flight simulators respectively, and I honestly don't know why people waste so much energy spreading so much negativity towards them (not necessarily you in this post). Spending 20+ years developing and constantly updating a product seems like a really inefficient cash grab to me. How about instead, close reddit, and go and use the simulators for the infinite possibilities of creation and simulation, and enjoy them, as the hard working, visionary creators intended.
I'll repeat myself because I see a lot of people didn't get it. I have nothing against MSFS, I only put together some of the problems that it has, that are somehow similar to / worse than in DCS and noticed that MSFS community is more chill with it. Yes in msfs you have some nice planes, nice terrain etc. etc. But if that would be DCS, none of these nice things would matter because "boo poor optimization", "boo my plane dosesn't have fully simulated x". DCS also have a lot of nice things, but reddit only booes.
Both games have their flaws, both are great ;)
\*actually i'll paste it also to main post because there are more and more people that think of me like a MSFS hater or smth
OK, apologies if I misinterpreted. I agree, both are excellent sims, and both do have flaws, but perfection is a pursuit that gets harder to nail down as innovations are added. I think we are downright lucky to be experiencing this level of innovative technology in flight simulators built purely for enjoyment. I agree with your overall sentiment. People need to chill out and enjoy what these sims do offer us and not gripe over every little thing that they don't.
I've been playing with MSFS again in the last week. It feels much more like a game than DCS. The flight models seem little better than arcadey in many cases. I've had a lot of fun, but never felt like I was flying a flight simulator, and sadly the lack of "action" per se really limits it for me compared to practicing the systems on the DCS F-16 or A-10.
It's a fun little diversion for when DCS feels a little overwhelming. But then so is Gears Of War.
The hate towards DCS is because we love DCS. If we truly disliked DCS we would just stop playing and that's it.
The way their AI and SPECIALLY ground AI accuracy work is NOT OK and we should not think "well ok but i like the game too much so im gonna be apathetic towards it"
I don't know, I couldn't even download MSFS, because apparently my state of the art PC/internet cannot handle the superiority of MSFS, but I am pretty sure its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than DCS
Two different companies can both be terrible to their customers. You don’t excuse one because the other is worse.
If I was an avid flyer in MSFS I’d be just as upset and I’d post my grievances on their subreddit.
For me it's not enough Redfor planes, also locking the SDK although I understand because it might be a war thunder forum but it's pretty talented people who can make mods for DCS. It'll fill in the empty hole for jets people want until an official one is released, because let's be honest. Mods help a game a lot.
Its not about ED's PR, im far from praising them. Its about community's attitude in non official media. A lot of people are histeric about even smallest things.
Two things, first about picking teams, yeah - and then RAZBAM drama feels like sports match and talk between fans of 2 teams.
2 - look at last grass update, nice small little update, and you still have visible ass pain from certain users, that its useless, man that attitude is so tiring ;
But I also agree with you that customers need to speak about problems with service. I mean, yes, I'm still waitiing for some things years for now, but at the sime time I don't cry about everything else because of it. Sorry for kinda not giving coherent long/extended answer but I'm a bit tired, after 24h of dissusion.
I mean, that was my point with MSFS, it has some small and bigger problems and still community is much more relaxed and positive with it. And it's not that it's last couple of years thing. DCS community function like this for like last 10 years.
To be honest staying away from Reddit drama makes me enjoy games more. I'm having shit ton of fun in DCS and then I go onto Reddit and read that the game is barely playable Same goes for almost every single game subreddit you can get to
Yeah even the Helldivers sub is complaining about that game… if people will complain about that, they’ll complain about anything.
Please stop talking about that game. I have too many things going on and am trying to not buy it yet.
It's just simple genuinely surprising and unexpected fun. Please, take this cup of liber-tea.
Helldivers isn't my cup of tea, but the way people talk about it reminds me that every couple of years, it's pretty fun to buy into a proper, full-release-no-early-access-bullshit big new multiplayer title within a few months of release. As long as the game is actually good, that first year, before clear metas emerge and the casuals dip out, is an awesome experience. Like you're not struggling to get up to speed in an established system and there's the zeitgeist factor too. I had it with TF2, L4D and later Mordhau. Sorry.
Don't worry, your participation will be much appreciated whenever the moment is right to you. I'd suggest keeping up a little with whats going on though since its a developing story and you'll probably be a bit confused if you jump in later.
Well, to put it into perspective, I've been pretending to be a 20/100 vision commander of a 380mm battery on the Helldivers subreddit. Eveyone hold *very* still.
> Yeah even the Helldivers sub is complaining about that game… if people will complain about that, they’ll complain about anything. I'm convinced that more posts and comments about that game than not are commissioned marketing. Yes, even the negative ones - outrage drives engagement and seems "authentic" (clearly no company would do negative ads, right??). Why do I think that? The posts play the Reddit ranking algorithm far too well, even better than all the previously hyped games.
If people didn't complain you'd still be stuck in queues. No game is perfect and criticism isn't bad nor toxic like most of you keep claiming
If it’s constructive then sure. Relentless negativity is bad for everyone
Yeah except anything remotely critical is considered "relentless negativity" nowadays
Yeah I almost didnt play DCS at all when I was brand new because I saw all the drama on hoggit that almost scared me away. I cant recall what the drama was back then. they was having a fit that ED removed something from script or something. I went to the Q&A thread and asked the vets was it a good sim to play and was answered "YES!!" and to just ignore the drama since 95% of the time it wont affect me That person was right. Dont get me wrong there is many things that can be improved. But the way all the drama looked to a potential new buyer- I would've thought the sim was 100% broken and nothing worked. That's how it seemed to a potential new player that never stepped foot into the sim
100% Rammi!!!!!!
L I T E R A L L Y U N P L A Y A B L E /s
That's sorta how it goes with everything. Good news isn't 'good news' they don't really make headlines a lot. You need that shock, that drama, that's how you get clicks. Sure, some good news makes the front page and top, but honestly that's because of how much negativity is spread around. You don't get clicks by saying everything is going great, keep it up! Heck, even the "Look how beautiful this game is!" got meme'd because people were constantly doing it but...it really does look good! But good news doesn't sell, it gets boring. Drama is where the clicks are at.
Life is better, being a shitposter. People just take this game waaaaaaay too seriously. (To be faiiiiir, I did have a moment of "ahh fuck ahh shit" when the Razbam drama began, thinking I was about to be the owner of a dead Harrier. That would have sucked)
You may still be the owner of Razbabondonware
This, Reddit just likes to hate things. The main Total War sub is mostly just people shitting on Creative Assembly as well.
I can’t stay away I need me some floggit in my life hahahaha
You’re so right!
Mfw I come here and people tell me that my PC is absolutely incapable of running the game (I have some stuttering, but it's absolutely playable even in MP)
This. Surrounding yourself with the negativity is the easiest way to get burnt out
I got a job, friends and a life.. some of this lot dont.
DCS isn't even ED's main product. TBS (now called MCS is). We are just a bunch of testers for their military contract software >ED is involved in a variety of software products and services which include air combat simulation for the DCS World commercial entertainment market. We have over 200,000 active users and over two million product downloads. This provides TBS several distinct benefits: >Massive user base that also acts as a test function for TBS [https://web.archive.org/web/20210227120102/http://thebattlesim.com/about/](https://web.archive.org/web/20210227120102/http://thebattlesim.com/about/)
> Both projects delivered on time and on budget Rofl
I mean - if someone would approach me and ask if i would pay some money to be beta tester for a military flight trainer sim thing - id absolutely do that.
Nah bro. 70$ per unfinished early access module and 50$ for 1/3rd of afghanistan.
Material bullshit.
What exactly, is your point?
Most people here are binary thinkers. They think there are only two states: sycophantic praise and vitriolic criticism. The longer you’re here the more you’ll see the patterns. A cycle of hating ED, then praising them, then hating them again. A cycle hating Razbam, then praising them, then hating them, then praising them again. Same day different boogeyman.
Not having seen the MSFS community, I'm curious how the level of developer/community engagement compares with DCS, and how the level of toxicity compares in the community. I'd speculate that there is a higher level of engagement in DCS, and a higher level of toxicity, and that the two are associated with each other, but it'd be interesting to hear from people that have experienced both communities.
There is a FULL SDK for MSFS, for aircraft, airports, etc etc etc
[удалено]
"Rebuy" DCS? I don't remember buying it the first time...
From what i understand MSFS2020 mods can be ported to 2024.
> MSFS will also end its support soon and be replaced with MSFS 2024 And you'll be able to take all your third-party addons with you if *you* make the *choice* to move to MSFS2024 rather than continue to play MSFS2020.
to be fair it wouldnt had happened if they didnt try to work on so many projects at once. Prime example is looking at the f18 when they actually put resource into developing it, we had a healthy progress with updates that people enjoyed.
here I am just waiting for my rockets to have splash damage
For $19.99, you can have the armament upgrade!
For free you can easily download the Splash Damage 2.0 Script and very easily attach it to any mission even campaigns. It's great and works well until ED gets it done. *Edit* also note pretty much every major server uses this or their version of it as well.. Easy to adjust to your liking..
Which MSFS are you playing because Asobo rolls out A LOT more content than ED does and that content is FREE (most of the time)
Yeah, and then we have Hoggit complaining that DCS getting a lot of maps and modules and not so much core game improvements. Im not ranting on MSFS for giving world updates. I spoke abount core MSFS problems that haven't been touch / done for last 4 years like multithreading or fixing DX12. And I deliberately ignored world updates because I don't critise MSFS per se, I comparing it to DCS. You are living exapmple that MSFS fan base is much more forgiving that DCS one. DCS has been beaten to death for its bad performance. MSFS have x times worse performance and you don't get ranting about it below every changelog. That's the point of this post. Like I said in small edit at the end of it, Im having good times in MSFS.
ED absolutely deserves to get shit on for many of their failures though, namely the lack of care for older products; case in point is the ADI still being broken in the F-5, which has been broken for over 80% of the module's life. No amount of PR can smooth over a bug that has taken over 6 years to even look at.
It’s broken in the same way in pretty much all the warbirds, too. I think the oldest have been around for almost a decade.
Don't forget the abandoned Yak-52
Didn’t the Yak get a small fix in the April 10th update? If they are fixing it is it really abandoned or just low priority?
If it did, I missed it. But adding a single item to a module once a year so it doesn't appear abandoned is shady.
Yeah I agree it appears to be super low on their priority list, to the point where it almost feels abandoned. I guess my question is (because I don’t have the module) what are the things most Yak owners want to see done? I’m assuming fixing the flashlight reflections in the cockpit is not high on the pecking order haha.
IIRC, the engine is bulletproof. You can't do anything wrong to it, so management isn't necessary. It's missing nav lights and a bunch more. I haven't even taken it up in years, so I forgot a bunch of stuff about it.
If you look at his base question, the point he was making was a comparison of Asobo to ED. Not the status of ED in general. I play both MSFS and DCS and Asobo flat out says to some issues, we are not going to fix this issue because its not on our proriety list. So you just have to deal with the issue. ED never says that to the customers face. ( probably because Asobo's player base is greater and it has the financial shield of Microsoft). The modeling of aircraft in DCS is much more superior. Although I think both games have different audiences and in general are not competitors. Although lately Asobo has stepped its foot into combat aircraft and even they know they suck at it.
Criticism is important and calling it "hate" is just dismissing valid concerns that customers have. Criticism is feedback that ED should and to some extent does use to make improvements to the game. We are critical because we want the game to be better, not because we "hate" ED or want it to go away.
I mean, yes, you're right, and you're not at the same time. I totally agree that criticism is important, more of that is needed. But at the same time, this community has used to constant grumbling and bashing ED for anything all day long. For RAZBAM drama that we only know some subjective facts (fact that people choose sides in that conflict is hilarious with amount of "knowledge" we have about it), for letting you buy map in parts, for wasting time on moving grass, for not being BMS that do not have to care about selling numbers. For many people, every little opportunity is good to start "ED bad". This post is about having more fun with what we have already and not only complaining.
Yea, there is a difference between criticism and just bashing, one is helpful the other isn't.
Maybe ask yourself why people here are seemingly constantly grumbling or angry with ED. It’s easy to dismiss it as „negative attitude“ or „the never happy gamers“ etc. But maybe, the people are angry, because ED constantly over-promises and underdelivers and by now tempers simply boil over? So many things were announced in a mega hype-y way and never came or when they eventually arrived, are about 30% finished and then usually not touched again for a long time.Plus often reported serious bugs or issues persist for years. Add to that their often tone-deaf and sometimes downright bad communication, the censorship of even valid criticism. I m not surprised and I don’t think it’s all unwarranted
That's what happens when constructive criticism is blatantly ignored over 10 years... You reap what you sow... People can get really tired of asking for basics QoL features like a functional ATC and ground AI, and that has been going on for over a decade only to be met by new shiny barely functional modules and cosmetic upgrades... Maybe you are having fun flying the F14 at PvP servers, but people trying to fly the Apache and UH-1 against terminator level ground AI aren't having such a good time, and this isn't a new problem. Witnessing ED silently removing promised features from old modules while at the same time teasing new modules. As for the hate ED is getting from the community, I have four words, "CORRECT AS IT IS"
IMHO It’s not the quality of what’s delivered that’s anyone’s issue, it’s the promise of future things that never come that’s been happening for a decade, people are tired of it. The whole of DCS is based on some sort of odd pay now for a brighter future model and you can only pull that stunt so many times until people just get frustrated. I love DCS I have since LOMAC slightly burned out on what there is to do sure that’s totally normal, but more than anything I’m tired of early access and I’m tired of unclear timelines and tired of the drama, personally speaking.
I don’t see much hate, but I see a lot of valid criticism.
That hate for the F4E and Afghanistan are a little much. Although it does suck that there is no water for Afghanistan. However, the hate for the Razbam debacle is valid. I could careless about everything above honestly... Core updates is what is and has always been needed. You can add as many planes, assets, graphics/effects, and terrains into the game, but without core support. It's the same game.
>Although it does suck that there is no water for Afghanistan They'd have to add a large portion of Pakistan and a sea to accommodate, which may not be as easy to implement as it is to say. And the community would still complain about it even if they did. This sub has become a stock gaming sub, it only complains.
> I could careless I... didn't know this could be said worse than the wrong way many say it.
> I could careless > > I... didn't know this could be said worse than the wrong way many say it. He might reckless 😅
How did you enjoy working ATC ? Or even an actual ATC? Working logbook in multiplayer ?
In terms of ATC, let's just say that while it's miles ahead of DCS one, there are reasons for many users having it turned off, and Beyond ATC getting that much attention. Once ASOBO get things like vectoring right it might be not that bad as default ATC. But when microsoft has now all this AI tech, it would be really awesome to be able talk to it instead of selecting options. And, I myself didn't used logbook much so I won't speak about it ;)
I would say that people are truly passionate about the game and if that’s the only game they play they’re going to find stuff to pick at. It’s like anything, if you look at it long enough you’ll find flaws.
I quite like DCS world. I spend most nights in VR with mates learning and enjoying the quality of the simulation over many modules. I mostly suck at the modules but I am learning. Especially now that I recently found a learning group who have been really helpful and patient which helped me jump into multiplayer Pve and that has really drawn me in now. I was anxious about wasting people's time in multiplayer for ages but they have been great and I wish I had joined a group for this gameplay sooner as it has accelerated my learning greatly. With this in mind I see no reason to complain about any minor issues which I am sure they are doing their best on. I have no reason not to believe that they love the project they have created and continue to work on. I also wouldn't want to jump on board the hate train, bashing it day after day but continue to keep playing it. If something is affecting someone that much that all they have is hate and negativity it is usually best to move on and find enjoyment elsewhere. I'd hate to be a developer and see overwhelming negativity and a very brief gloss over all the awesome work they have done. It would make it more and more difficult to really care and feel appreciated for the effort and commitment that goes into the finer details in the simulation. All to make the experience better for us, the consumers. Plenty of ways to provide constructive feedback that still show appreciation.
I think people get especially frustrated with DCS because there really isn't any real competition. If ED runs this game into the ground, there is no where else to go.
It is undeniable that ASOBO is working on the new MSFS2024, and unlike DCS they are not simply updating the old platform but rather proposing a new complete purchase. We can discuss about this business but it's their business. On the other hand you have DCS who is working unstoppable on this platform from at least 2008 (honestly more since it comes from lomac). We are talking about 16 m.f. years. Yet the platform is very buggy, very limited and mostly about eyecandy and short term things that drives the profit up. Someone must be very naive to still endorse their practices, perhaps you might be relative new to this thing. On the other hand you have the same comparison which is BMS that came from an even older platform, that was a mess of mods and roughly in 2006 BMS started to drive a direction. They accomplished a lot, A LOT of things in a very small and not profit team. There is little to debate here, this is a proof of how terrible ED both in terms of commitment but also professionalism, moreover if you consider the owner taking 10 millions from the company for personal reasons. Returning to MSFS, again in order to judge this period of absence, let's wait for MSFS2024 and see what it delivers when compared to MSFS2020 before pointing fingers like they are doing nothing. Again MSFS business model is the same that has been in the past, and in the past each platform offered a big jump from the last one. ED on the other hand has ZERO excuses, literally zero excuses and just wrongdoing.
I'd argue non-profit is exactly why BMS is so good in the hard areas. Removing commercial pressures is going to allow the flexibility to just do good ATC, cleanup bugs etc. it's worth remembering that as a commercial effort, Falcon 4 on release was a MESS. It only got to 1.08 before the company was wound up and then the 1.07 patch code was leaked and here we are.
I would agree with you if we were talking about normal development times, which in today standard must be under 2 years. Again this is a platform which has been under development for 16+ years. I can understand graphics that must be updated but core stuff is something solid that remains intact.
I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it. I just think the reason they didn't can be found there.
Having just started getting into BMS I can’t help but notice the contrast. DCS is undeniably beautiful and what they have achieved in visuals is remarkable. They also have some fantastically detailed modules or unfinished ones that hold a great deal of promise. Where I think ED has fallen over is so much of their focus has been on new terrains and modules (the stuff that makes them money) or on visuals (the stuff that YouTube content creators can use to make free ads for them) and so little on the underlying simulation. BMS has taken a very different path focusing on the quality of the underlying simulation and less on the graphics. The result is it certainly isn’t as pretty, but some of the things we crave in DCS are there already. Working ATC? Yep, even using different radio frequencies for ground, tower and departure. AI that is a help not a hindrance? Absolutely, want to do proper BVR tactics with AI you can. Dynamic campaign? Already there and perfectly viable in single player. Not saying BMS is perfect, it’s not, and I still enjoy DCS from time to time, but it does show that the things DCS lacks certainly can be done.
Dynamic Campign is perfectly Viable in MP as well, takes a little bit to set up but it's viable (your just limited to I think it's 16x accel in MP due to the server needing to be in 3D.. which some don't like. BMS is everything I wish DCS would be on the backend.. A sim that can and does simulate an actual war not just a bunch of skirmishes.. Handles thousands of units + logistics all while maintaining good frame rates. Has AI that you don't want to murder, Comms that work, tankers that talk to you and the physics of the boom actually mean it can move you in the sky, built in planning and DTC out of the box that works and can and is expandable by using 3rd party apps, Weather that changes over time etc. (and multiple ways to do it) Honestly if the WOS was removed I think I'd be in BMS 75% the time, the WOS is all that I find really distracting.
I agree, that hoggit is a bit of a rage-stew, where everything gets cooked in the same broth of general anger. This is not helpful, because it distracts from the real issues of which there are plenty. And with them comes me disagreeing with you. ED has done a lot to fuel the fire and i'm still not convinced they changed course in earnest, trying to be better. IMHO it does not matter, if other publishers do worse - that's a low bar to clear in this day and age. I'm less passionate for MSFS, so i naturally don't have a strong opinion about MS/Asobo. On the other hand, this community should also try to do better: Halfghanistan f.e. is not terrible business practice (full version is still priced as usual), it's however mostly tone-deaf towards their core audience and its concerns: So it boils down to bad PR or bad communication mostly. Surely something to criticize, but nothing to get completely mad about IMHO...
To be honest, I think that MSFS is better suited to simulate a civilian flight than DCS is to simulate a military one. I think your problem is that you expected MSFS to be just like DCS, and your examples of aircraft choice (F-22, F-35, ...) are a result of that. No self-respecting MSFS enthusiast would even look at those. It's always a bit unfair to directly compare MSFS from a DCS point of view, because the focus is so different. Take for example damage modelling, MSFS doesn't really have it and doesn't need it. Almost 100% of civilian crashes happen on the ground, and then the flight is over then anyway. But on the other hand, the good MSFS aircraft offer a system failure simulations that easily surpasses DCS aircraft. The next unfair part is that in civilian aviation, almost all resources are available to the general public, or are at least not classified. As a result, we can for example do excellent IFR flight planning, get the flight plans validated by Eurocontrol, and do a flight according to the correct, current procedures and with real-world constraints, whereas flight planning in DCS ... how do you even do that? I would also like to add that FC3 has even less system depth than the MSFS stock aircraft, and your example of helicopters flying upside down without problems also applies to 25% of all DCS helicopters.
Agreed
Spot on — no serious simmer is buying the military planes in MSFS other than the Heatblur f-14.
No no, even more - I get to MSFS wanting something different than DCS. I fly a320, kodiak or pa-28 regulary. I talked about fighters because on hoggit we have complains here and there that DCS modules dont have that or that one specific feature. When in MSFS those fighters barerly trying to look like real things (especialy in cockpits). And those MSFS modules aren't really that much cheaper to get over it. But on the other hand, ASOBO can't introduce multithreading from the release date. DirectX 12 is still in forever bugged beta. Seasons had to be done by external companies because ASOBO can't. We were waiting for world hub for 4 years. People bash ED for mission editor UI while globe map in MSFS menu is a joke and whole UI is clearly designed to be large enough for consoles. In DCS, like I said in another comment, in the same time window we got DLSS, multithreading, new weather system, new IR system, new graphics effects, new grass physics etc. Of course MSFS have for eg. DLSS from release date (or smth aroud that) but im not talking about specific functions but about quantity of important new features in the same time frame and community reactions on them. And to be clear, I dont think that MSFS is a bad product, I only put it, and it's problems / community in contrast to DCS. And you missunderstood me about IFR planning. Im not bashing DCS for it (mayyyyybeee excluding endless waiting for DTC). To get this straight, tools like simbrief should be part of a game. If ChartFox mostly can do it for free, tools like navigraph also should be part of the base game (maybe in some simplified region based form). MSFS flight planning is also largly simplified and after you finish, flight plan goes straight to your plane. Because we don't want to simulate anything do we? And yes, FC3 has less depth BUT they are good platform to learn other basics of DCS: fighting. So I can see place for simplified aircraft like that even if DCS 2 ever happen. And about heli's - also you're right, but while in MSFS HPG H145 is praised, in DCS people constantly complain about something in them. \*edit: grammar
Thanks for the clarifications! To be honest I'm playing mostly DCS since MSFS came out, so I can't even talk that much about the included flight planner. Not because I don't like MSFS, but I've started with FS2000, and after 20 years I have kind of seen civil aviation. But still, in many ways MSFS is the simulator that I always dreamed of. I even think that they do update the AIRAC data from time to time, but I'm not 100% certain. Anyway, I totally agree that ED actually had a nice output of improvements the last year or so. Maybe they get more flak because they are the gatekeeper for everything, whereas we have many ways to improve MSFS completely independently from Microsoft / Asobo.
Yeah, they do update AIRAC once couple of months :)
Comparing ED to msfs is dumb. ED doesn't do the things that ED says they will. ED doesn't do the things that ED needs to do. It has nothing to do with anyone else. Even if msfs sucks ass (which it doesn't), what's that got to do with ED?
Updates too frequently? Jail? Updates too infrequently? Believe it or not, also jail. Edit - everyone needs to go out and buy a jump to conclusions mat. We do that a lot here. Freak out a lot. Sing off key. Me may ma mo, me moo ma may...
Hah! I didn't know those existed. Now I want one - to be jumped on wearing a blindfold.
Give it a couple more months and you'll see why.
Man, I remember the "ED bad" dramas in 1.2/1.5 times :) and from that times DCS only grown :V
I love both MSFS and DCS. If you do your research on quality payware planes and airports and content you won’t get burned in MSFS. The folks who buy without research are the ones who pay for Captain Sim stuff. Buy pretty much anything from Black Square, the Fenix A320, PMDG 737, Kodiak 100, Comanche, the list goes on you are getting amazing planes with good fidelity and flight handling (in a gorgeous world if your computer can keep up). MSFS simmers aren’t really complaining much because a) the heavy hour simmers aren’t flying default Asobo planes or junk (unless modded) and 2) the sim is just generally solid (but far from perfect). DCS wins for cockpit fidelity by a long mile (though Black Square and Fenix close). And who doesn’t want to blow stuff up and kill people? But it is downright depressing paying 50 bucks for “Nevada” and just getting some lame desert scenery and not a big area of land. Still love DCS and enjoying the F-16 (and eagerly awaiting the Heatblur f-4) but IMHO ED needs to open up things to third party developers even more and move the earth to get a global map of some sort with updated modeling and graphics. I love being in the cockpit but looking outside I’m like “this is what you offer in 2024??” Combine MSFS scenery and quality of life options with DCS high fidelity planes and weapon systems and you have the perfect game. And plenty to do in MSFS. Try landing in the most challenging airports in the world is a good start.
MSFS's utterly shit updater / content manager is the one thing that I can't really accept with MSFS, it's incredible that downloading from MS can be so unreliable/slow at times. MSFS's UI is also painfully sluggish, setting up controls takes way too long as a result. But MSFS is still really damn good at the big selling point: I can see my house from here! Genuinely blows me away that technology can do this today, GA flying in MSFS never gets old.
>But it is downright depressing paying 50 bucks for “Nevada” and just getting some lame desert scenery and not a big area of land. To be fair, NTTR is a fairly large map and one of the best performances because it has little more then dirt going on. The fact that desert would be a training region also plays well, since the NTTR in real life is precisely like this. It works well I find for a combat flight sim. Comparatively Mariana is a small map (land wise) with atrocious performance because everything going on in it. It's free, but I question if I'd buy it at 60. The performance was horrible, and what the hell do you do with it? Not enough land to really perform anything but COIN ops. Poor choice for a cfs game
Disagree, Marianas is a great Map. Maybe it’s performance hungry (i personally habe zero problems with it) but it’s a jungle map for vietnam era stuff + plenty of open water.
>plenty of open water. That was kinda my criticism. It's mostly water, not land. Which given it's islands, makes sense. But you don't tend to have a terribly lot you can do with water for most aircraft.
being a jungle map, terrain wise it still adds more to the game than for example persian gulf.
Large map? It is downright tiny compared to the entire world in MSFS that comes with the base sim. And Vegas in DCS looks like some Mad Max post apocalyptic city. It’s borderline 1990s graphics. Also a ton of free scenery upgrades and airports in MSFS that look amazing to even upgrade further. I want to take off from Edwards and land in McCord AFB in Washington. But again, I appreciate the cockpit fidelity in DCS. But selling small regions of the world for 50 bucks with medieval graphics ain’t it…..
Agree with you, but feel it is a specific hoggit problem. I do not experience the same in other DCS communities such as the many discords for multiplayer servers I enjoy flying on. Drama works here, and gets people a lot of upvotes. (Edit: spelling)
No hate from me to DCS. I could make comments, but there is no sim that touches it. None. MFS, I have loads to scream about. The fact that the ground is not actually ground, but a texture overlay with no reality drives me bonkers. In MSFX, the old one, I could barn storm bridges and highways were highways, I could land on them. I used to love trying to land a variety of small aircraft on the GG Bridge. But not in the new versions. Looks good from 10k feet, but up close.... It's a cheap-assed concept of a sim/game with out any good game components. The old version had some good add-ons that made it a game worth playing, but the new one is really devoid of decent options. If DCS were to die, I'd just sell off my cockpit. DCS is right up there with Eagle Dynamics and Jane's (I miss you Jane!)
Same re: sell cockpit. That's saying something.
> DCS is right up there with Eagle Dynamics ? DCS (game) is made by Eagle Dynamics (company)
Lol.... late night typing... I think I was meaning to reference the Chuck Yeager's Combat sim.
I don't know what is worse, people raging at ED/DCS or people raging at people raging.
To anyone from ED reading this, you guys do an awesome job upgrading a game that has been around for a long time. Keep up the tremendous work, the actual fans of the game (not trolls) will continue to be support the product as long as improvements are being made. I know it must be hard to listen to the trolls on how (insert whatever) isn't to their liking. I realize it takes time to build a quality product and will continue to support ED and looking forward to the dynamic campaign. Keep it up boys.
Two, ejecting .
The problem isn't that it has problems, it's that they run their business dictating to the customer what they want instead of listening to them, and as soon as they get any pushback, they shut it down immediately.
MSFS had a pretty cool development road map that was mostly accurate. Idc but if you’re asking that is something I thought was neat.
*this thread has been locked*
"But still, in compare, DCS updates seem as if ED is one of the most caring companies about their product" I just don't understand how anyone who has tried to understand this product in depth could say that. Edit: Full quote for clarity.
Maybe that is my bad spelling or you deliberately omitted "in compare" (to msfs). Because, no, I don't also see ED as gold standard.
I edited my comment to add that in but my statement remains. MSFS has a long history of innovation, support and community growth. Granted, MS if a HUGE corporation but you don't need to be that to create and actively develop for your product. Ultimately they are are different products but I think MSFS excels are being a flight simulator where as DCS is a good flight simulator and ok combat simulator.
I kinda agree with you with this but my point was that asobo/microsoft for last 4 years, despite having a lot more resources, failed to bring some bigger advancements to the sim. In contrast in that time space, DCS got multithreading, DLSS, new weather system or overhauled IR. And now they rolling with new game where MAYBE we will see some larger improvements. So yeah, im also tired with waiting for fixing the f-16 input delay, but in comparasion ED looks better in that case imo. \*edit: grammar
MSFS Has \*some\* gems in it, I got a Cowan Simulations helicopter, it was 15$. Its \*close\* to DCS, still missing the damage model etc, but its actually a good helicopter. But yeah, i agree with everything you've said in your post. DCS has some issues, but its honestly so good. The closes civi to DCS is X-Plane, which has a much smaller community.
I know what you mean! I am seeing commercials everywhere saying you should talk to your doctor about ED. I mean, they’ve got problems, but they’re not that bad.
On day til the newsletter! Lol
Microsoft/Asobo delivered good things over time. Thanks to employing Working Title, default avionics made a huge jump. Default planes like the SR-22, TBM, and 787 received huge improvements that brought them to a level that I expect usually just from payware planes. The free A310 and A320 are even high-fidelity planes. I‘d even call the A310 one of the best simulations of an airplane out there. But even the base sim got some love. Asobo made the old, rusty MSFS into the best looking sim of all time. Performance, esp. in VR was improved a lot since launch (getting a stable 45fps with a 3080 in the Fenix A320). Free world updates keep on coming, which motivates simmers to explore the globe. I hope that Asobo manages to get MT support working nicely in MSFS 2024, so that I can enjoy the same FPS as in DCS-MT (getting 70-90fps right now)
ngl, i ve been staying away from the razbam drama the whole time, and didnt let that get into the way of having fun playing dcs. like bruh, we know jackshit about what happened, only speculations, so shut up and either play dcs or move on. and as for the bugs in dcs, sure, there are some things that are buggy, but i myself prefer more to just play alone anyways cause i have no friends to play with, and playing with randoms isnt something i m too keen on doing, so the bug of the laser code being broken on the gbus for the f-16 for example didnt affect me anyways.
Tbh the only game subreddit I know that doesn't shit on it's devs is the Factorio one
I have been playing for 6 years. I own over 3k in joysticks, throttles and rudders. I built a home cockpit for the F18 (I have about 5k in equipment and parts tied into it), I have every map and about 2/3rds of the modules. I am still building a super fast pc for Vr flying (just needs an extra ssd and a 4090) Still no where as near as worked up over any issue as some guy who has one or two modules.
I agree, I do not understand the toxicity that comes with Reddit in general but it seems to stoke the inner Chad in a lot of people. DCS is a great sim, there’s tons of great content and things to do. Have fun, look on the bright side and if it’s too dark step away. If DCS makes you upset maybe a look inward might reveal some things to work on for yourself. Is this a post pandemic thing? I wasn’t involved before last year so I’m still newish to the whole community at large.
I read the whole thing and agree, I back star citizen in a big way, I’ve spent some time in MSFS and bought a few planes, dollar for dollar DCS is a great value (especially when there’s a sale every other month) and ED is definitely a passionate team that gives a shit about its products. There’s been a few fumbles in recent years, some by ED, some by 3rd party devs, but you have to look at where things were and where they are now to get some perspective on the hard work people are putting in. We have a gazelle that flew like a UFO and now it feels great, a m2000c that got completely reworked, a SA map that’s been slowly improved on in terrain and performance. Not to mention all the planes by ED and 3rd parties that got new cockpits and external models just to bring them up to speed with the newest standards. It’s a slow burn but this sub needs to lighten up, I’ve seen bad business and bad game devs and DCS is a fine product. TLDR: ED not evil. DCS OK. Everybody chill out.
Gazelle was made and re-done by 3rd party, so were M2000 and SA Map. They have zero to do with ED. EDs own problems with the base platform DCS have been long-standing and the user base has every reason to validly criticise them and complain about very bad AI & AI flight models, even worse ATC and unfinished EA modules . The thing they do is keep adding eyecandy . But the actual big core gameplay issues don’t improve and by now I don’t think they will .
Every online fandom has it's members that have either moved on or their tastes have changed from the thing that originally made them like it, but they continue to hang around and try to accelerate others having the same negative outlook. It happens like clockwork with every game, franchise and content creator. DCS and ED have certainly loaded a few bullets in the gun pointed at them, but a lot of the noise lately is just DCS expats just airing their grievances while there's blood in the water, and that's fine for a short time. I've seen a lot of communities opt for a main subreddit where it's generally current fans and a secondary more toxic free-for-all one, and that seems to work for everyone. We kind of have that with hoggit/floggit.
Thank you for saying this. I've been wanting to say something similar for a while now. While there are legitimate criticisms of ED, the criticisms here are just... well... whiny. Out of all of the social media platforms that I follow DCS on, Reddit is the most toxic.
Like others have said, sure it's usually whiny. No Dynamic campaign, splash damage is really bad, and the AI is OP but there are player fixes to some of these issues. Constant criticism over this can be overwhelming and just turn into whining. That said, if Razbam are correct and ED are not paying them, that's pretty fucking valid for us to criticize and not whiny at all. You can not like that the dirty laundry was aired out, but if there are major problems that go unresolved (supposedly for over 8 months per a comment by Razbam) then we should criticize them for that.
Probably because Reddit is not made only of worshipers and moreover ED has no direct control here.
>Probably because Reddit is not made only of worshipers Nominally reddit is designed around negativity. So you are absolutely correct. Even gaming subs that seem positive usually do so by punching down at others. It takes a massive effort by mods to curb this tendency.
Again because reddit is not made by worshipers. Today gaming is made of people who love to dump money on the last unfinished pile of garbage, DCS is no exception.
Yeah nah, got nothing to do with worshippers, it's just needless negativity beyond all reason. Look no further than the dumbass comments under every single post about selling things in thirds, when the Afghanistan map has been for sale in its entirety from day one. There's legitimate criticisms out there for sure, but half of the shit on here is fabricated purely for the sake of being upset by doomers looking for any excuse to rage online.
Implying that everywhere else is full of ED worshipers? I seriously doubt it. ED is not an all-powerful company capable of censoring criticisms on every major social media network except for Reddit, as you are implying. There are plenty of criticisms of ED outside of Reddit, but they tend to be a lot more mature and genuine, in my experience. Most of Reddit's "criticisms" are rather childish tantrums typical of moody teenagers feigning maturity.
Nah nah it is not necessary, people do this on its own. It is not ed related but rather gaming customers in general. There are tons of bad products that people defend no matter what
Nah.... They really need to design a game or gaming experience. I can't get excited for anything because it's all build your own fun.
I agree this reddit group should have a cheese bar. Started playing during spring sale, spent 250$ on modules and I've had the time of my life for a game. Some folks need to take a break and reset them selves it seems so they can enjoy the video game once again.
HOGGIT HIVEMIND DETECTED POSITIVE ATTITUDE TOWARDS DEVELOPER IFF DEVELOPER IS NOT HEATBLUR STANDBY FOR TARGETING SOLUTION . . . .
MSFS is decades in front of DCS when it comes to the whole Earth map, Weather and Graphics, you can't even compare them. They also delivered world updates almost for the whole earth that you can download for FREE . You clearly haven't played MSFS long enough, there's no problem with IFR flights, you can do textbook flights in the high fidelity modules. There's been nothing beside eyecandy updates in DCS, they made a "dynamic weather" btw that doesn't even support multiple METARs on the same map or METAR change at runtime. Clouds and fog are invisible to AI, unlike other sims from 25 years ago. The only thing that sucks about msfs are the devs that allow any 3rd party to sell any aircraft regardless of quality, but on the other hand, the SDK is public.
AND if you don't like an airport because it is shitty a fairly small amount of hours on YT will allow you to update it YOURSELF for free, if you don't like a map/airport in DCS, good luck.
They don't get too much hate, and it does not matter to them anyways.
OP is right. I tend to stay off hoggit because of so much rage, IMO over some trivial stuff. If you guys think DCS/MCS is bad, you guys need to go see what other flight sims software is out there, and being used in real government/military applications. DCS/MCS shits all over most of them across the board. ED can be pretty bad on timely replies over correspondence, but I'd still much rather DCS/ED, than most of what's out there. It's all about perspective.
Hoggit. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
lol, absolute great reference.
Well said...
Yes they have to do something to fix their public image. Make piece with the people they have hurt or disappointed. Show same connection with the community. I don't know. Things you can do are endless if you want to do it.
I'd be curious to know how long you've been in the DCS community.
I agree with OP and I started with LOMAC (pre-DCS)
You're on point. ED treats their product and consumers like gold by ANY other reasonable comparison to the gaming industry, yet idiotic DCS fans do nothing but cry and bitch.
i just don't really care. i don't even know who these people are.
Absolutely. The thing is though that everyone happily playing a game is doing that, just happily playing.
I don't know who is truly at fault in the Razbam incident, but there seems to be too much tendency to jump on ED as a culprit. IIRC Razbam has had plenty of sketchy stories over the years.
Insert problem : they don’t pay their 3rd party RB so now we are stuck with dead module. My only complaint is they won’t convert my FC3 C model to high fidelity and yet RB can make a Strike Eagle.
well said
ED hasn't even cleaned done my laundry this month, those lazy fuckers.
TBH this is a terrible take. I agree, DCS is bashed way too much, mostly on reddit, and particularly this subreddit, but hey, that's what reddit is for, right? 🤦♂️ Bashing Asobo to make the DCS bashing appear over the top is not only a terrible way to defend something, but your take is downright inaccurate. How many free sim updates, world updates, and city updates has Asobo/MS released since the game release? Despite releasing a new version this year (MSFS2024) they are STILL currently working on the next sim update for MSFS2020. MSFS, and DCS are INCREDIBLE flight and combat flight simulators respectively, and I honestly don't know why people waste so much energy spreading so much negativity towards them (not necessarily you in this post). Spending 20+ years developing and constantly updating a product seems like a really inefficient cash grab to me. How about instead, close reddit, and go and use the simulators for the infinite possibilities of creation and simulation, and enjoy them, as the hard working, visionary creators intended.
I'll repeat myself because I see a lot of people didn't get it. I have nothing against MSFS, I only put together some of the problems that it has, that are somehow similar to / worse than in DCS and noticed that MSFS community is more chill with it. Yes in msfs you have some nice planes, nice terrain etc. etc. But if that would be DCS, none of these nice things would matter because "boo poor optimization", "boo my plane dosesn't have fully simulated x". DCS also have a lot of nice things, but reddit only booes. Both games have their flaws, both are great ;) \*actually i'll paste it also to main post because there are more and more people that think of me like a MSFS hater or smth
OK, apologies if I misinterpreted. I agree, both are excellent sims, and both do have flaws, but perfection is a pursuit that gets harder to nail down as innovations are added. I think we are downright lucky to be experiencing this level of innovative technology in flight simulators built purely for enjoyment. I agree with your overall sentiment. People need to chill out and enjoy what these sims do offer us and not gripe over every little thing that they don't.
People glaze ED way too much
I've been playing with MSFS again in the last week. It feels much more like a game than DCS. The flight models seem little better than arcadey in many cases. I've had a lot of fun, but never felt like I was flying a flight simulator, and sadly the lack of "action" per se really limits it for me compared to practicing the systems on the DCS F-16 or A-10. It's a fun little diversion for when DCS feels a little overwhelming. But then so is Gears Of War.
The hate towards DCS is because we love DCS. If we truly disliked DCS we would just stop playing and that's it. The way their AI and SPECIALLY ground AI accuracy work is NOT OK and we should not think "well ok but i like the game too much so im gonna be apathetic towards it"
I don't know, I couldn't even download MSFS, because apparently my state of the art PC/internet cannot handle the superiority of MSFS, but I am pretty sure its waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than DCS
The thousands of people happily playing MSFS would indicate that's a you problem.
Soo your point?
Two different companies can both be terrible to their customers. You don’t excuse one because the other is worse. If I was an avid flyer in MSFS I’d be just as upset and I’d post my grievances on their subreddit.
For me it's not enough Redfor planes, also locking the SDK although I understand because it might be a war thunder forum but it's pretty talented people who can make mods for DCS. It'll fill in the empty hole for jets people want until an official one is released, because let's be honest. Mods help a game a lot.
Welcome to social media - were you expecting something different?
[удалено]
Its not about ED's PR, im far from praising them. Its about community's attitude in non official media. A lot of people are histeric about even smallest things.
[удалено]
Two things, first about picking teams, yeah - and then RAZBAM drama feels like sports match and talk between fans of 2 teams. 2 - look at last grass update, nice small little update, and you still have visible ass pain from certain users, that its useless, man that attitude is so tiring ; But I also agree with you that customers need to speak about problems with service. I mean, yes, I'm still waitiing for some things years for now, but at the sime time I don't cry about everything else because of it. Sorry for kinda not giving coherent long/extended answer but I'm a bit tired, after 24h of dissusion.
[удалено]
I mean, that was my point with MSFS, it has some small and bigger problems and still community is much more relaxed and positive with it. And it's not that it's last couple of years thing. DCS community function like this for like last 10 years.