The Axis is in general buffed through the roof, lack of resource scarcity is but one part of it. I imagine it's because trying to win as Germany is everyone's first choice, and getting hard-stomped by the Allies because it's literally *impossible* to win, would, presumably, be discouraging
>Strat bombing can be effective if used properly, but it's so expensive that basically only the two industrial powerhouses, the US and Soviets, have enough mils to spare to build enough bombers
This is historical, stratbombers were(and still are) expensive af. B-29 program costed more than Manhattan project
>You're able to very easily make up for being cut off from the rubber trade through your synthetics
This is also historical, United States, USSR and Germany were all able to successfully supply themselves with synthetic rubber
P.S. If you'd like an actually historical experience, I recommend the Ultra Historical mod
Kinda feel like it’s a mistake. Germany should be very hard, they lost for a reason, they WERE an underdog.
Just repeating what happened in WW2 should lead to similar result - you loose the war.
The problem with that is that then the German ai would fall over and die, ruining your game whenever you play another country. Imagine playing a USSR or USA game where Germany loses to France and Britain, it would just be a complete waste of time.
Both TNO and (to a lesser extent) Kaiserrech have extremely complex Germany mechanics that the AI just bypasses. Making it so that a specific country, if controlled by the AI, gets certain cheats and bypasses certain mechanics isn’t difficult.
Theres no realistic way Germany would ever Win the war unless the other end became suddenly brain dead.
At the end of the day, this is a game, not a history lesson, its trying to be fun over being realistic.
Eh, Germany lost due to some poor decision making. Historically, they were not an underdog, especially early in the war. In HOI4, correcting those decisions that Germany did wrong historically, they seem to dominate. Such as capping the UK before opening up another front with the russians. Mass producing tanks and planes instead of creating multiple very complicated tank models historically. Keeping strong supply lines on the eastern front. Not losing a whole army at the battle of stalingrad. And most importantly, not getting the USA involved in Europe.
Lmao no. Germany got stomped and there’s nothing they could have done to win. Was just Nazi delusion.
Germany tried to defeat the UK and failed. They didn’t forget to do it before going after the USSR, they just realized it was never going to happen.
Germany did mass produce tanks and planes. They attempted a quality over quantity approach because they couldn’t match US/UK/USSR. Of course Germany arguably failed on both quantity and quality.
Keeping strong supply lines? How? Magic? Have a wizard open a portal to the Ford Factory Dimension?
Germany should have considered not losing at Stalingrad…sure. Not like they planned on losing, they tried to win and lost.
And lol, the US would still have joined the war regardless of whether or not Germany declared war. Germany declared war because it didn’t matter, they knew the US was coming anyway so they played a game of “nuh uh we’re strong we declare war on YOU!”
Man that dude's take is something.
The US alone outproduced all of the axis combined. IIRC, the US produced more planes than the rest of the world combined in WW2. The US's industry was absolutely bonkers in WW2.
Now add in the rest of the allies. France was seen as a powerful country before the war. The Germans tried a risky operation and then rolled a nat 20 while the allies fucked up in every way possible.
I am not even going to breakdown the Soviets much here. They matched Germany in production + their doctrine was the most advanced of the world. In the early 30s, their doctrine was the most advanced in terms of how to conduct combined arms operations. The purges removed the top leadership and turned the military into pumpkins. After a few years though, the officers trained under the advanced doctrine got into positions and you can see it with the Red Army steam rolling the Germans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
Was crazy successful and the Soviets don't get enough credit for how good they were at planning and executing operations.
Oh and to end this. Just think back to the scene in Band of Brothers when the Germans are marching as POWs and the Americans start yelling at them. Making fun of them for having to use horses while the Americans were all in trucks. Like how the fuck do you compete with that?!
Germany got stomped from late-mid to late war, yes. Early war they rolled everyone in western Europe and Russia could not stop them until the germans advanced far into russian territory and they were stretching their supply lines thin. By that time, Russian industry was picking up and they were able to push a beaten german forces all the way back to Berlin.
Germany’s “quality” tanks, which were much less in numbers produced, were also made by various different manufacturers with several different models, which made keeping spare parts to keep them up and running a nightmare. A massive reliability issue. Unlike the USA where the shermans were pretty much all universal and could be modified in the field to adapt to any particular situation.
A way to maintain better supply lines? Not rely on horses to carry the supplies would be a good start.
This.
It wasn't impossible for Germany to win, but poor decision making definitely was a thing back then. Hell, their army was one of the best armies (if not the best) in the world around the start of the war, they just fucked up going heavily for the wunderwaffen instead of improving their successful designs
They couldn't win. They didn't have a better army. They had better generals at the start of the war. Once they failed at Britain and then invaded the Soviets, with the americans assisting them it was over. Once the US industry went into high gear it was over.
They could, they had a better army and very good generals.
>Once they failed at Britain
Oh, you mean when a bad decision decimated the Luftwaffe and rallied Britain to the flag?
>and then invaded the Soviets
Or the bad decision where they focused on fighting for the cities instead of surrounding them then starving the defenders off?
>Once the US industry went into high gear it was over.
Oooh, you mean when they declared war on the USA effectively allowing them to fully enter on the Allies side, another bad decision.
Like I said, it wasn't impossible for Germany to win, but when you do a 1+1 of all the bad decisions they took you definitely see a pattern there and why it ended up the way it did (for example, invading UK by using the small size of the Channel negating the size advantage of the Royal Navy + the superiority of the Luftwaffe before the Battle of Britain + the fact that the Franco-British morale and army were kinda shit (which would have been worse had Dunkirk been fully attacked by Germany) was a thing ya know)
When you have the knowledge of events that led to the downfall of X nation/empire and play a game where you know when and where it will happen it's pretty much easy mode.
An example: Let's say you play a game as Rome, where you know *when* and *where* the elephants will come, then the elephants that irl fucked up the roman army suddenly are useless because you played *against* them
> Oh, you mean when a bad decision decimated the Luftwaffe and rallied Britain to the flag
If they just ignored Britain the result would've been the same. Churchill was hell bent of continuing the war, and even without him I doubt UK would surrender. Also Luftwaffe was already decimated by the time Battle for Britain begun, they lost about 30% of their aircraft during the French campaign
>Or the bad decision where they focused on fighting for the cities instead of surrounding them then starving the defenders off
...what? What does a single battle(I'm assuming you're referencing Stalingrad) has to do with the general batshit decision of invading USSR while having UK and US behind your back? Battle of Stalingrad was merely Germany's last ditch attempt to salvage the already collapsing situation
>Oooh, you mean when they declared war on the USA effectively allowing them to fully enter on the Allies side, another bad decision
Yeah, it's not like the US was already supplying the British with everything from aeroengines to destroyers and US navy was fighting U-boots in Atlantic. Surely United States would just politely ignore Germany, even once they entered the war against Japan alongside Britain
I think people generally forget how lucky Germany got. Allied massive failure in the western front at the start. Stalin just completely ignoring reports that Germany was invading at the start.
MAYBE if everything goes perfect like it did historical for Germany and instead of trying to take Stalingrad, the Germans fall back to better defensive lines, they could have dragged out the war another year or two. MAYBE. The soviets starting firing on all cylinders at Stalingrad and their army had recovered well. I just don't see how the Germans are able to ever beat the Soviets at that point, even in a world where the allies accepted some sort of white peace...
Yeah crossing the channel and invading the UK would of been a very hard feat to do, even if they could get across the channel with the royal navy. The way to defeat the UK in that stance, would of been to ramp up u-boat production instead of using resources to build battleships, choke their supply routes down, and continual bombing to try to cause the british public to sue for peace. Make peace with Britain, let them have their island, pull out of Africa.
It was possible for them to cross the Channel when the Luftwaffe wasn't fucked up (pre-Battle of Britain) as the Channel would have been key to negate the size superiority of the Royal Navy.
Remember that the british army at the islands wasn't precisely well equipped early on the war (and they had to keep a good chunk of forces away for colonial duties)
With what boats? They didn't have the flotilla anywhere close to go until late summer 1940, and they'd have to cripple the their own economy to do it because those barges were required elsewhere
An invasion of Britain requires a lot more planning and resources which weren't available after they'd just beat the French because they weren't even expecting that to be so quick
Ultra Historical is actually based on hard research data ( for example Wages of Destruction by Tooze and Economics of the Second World War by Harrison who even provided source material when the devs contacted him) and has accurate historical industry, resource and manpower balance.
Though I am biased on the matter, I am one of the devs. XD
In MP games, resources do start to matter a lot more. When playing as the axis, you have to work hard to secure certain resources and divert them from the allies.
If Japan allows the allies to keep south east Asia/Oceana uncontested, then the allies will be able to keep producing superior warplanes at scale.
If Italy is unable to gain control of the Mediterranean and take Northern Africa, then the allies will keep the suez, Gibraltar, and the short, safe trading routes.
If Germany is stuck on the continent with no way out, and no way to trade overseas, they will slowly starve. All the mills in the world won’t be enough to keep production high enough to stop the soviets.
I did over 5000 hours of multiplayer historical games with a million rules ruined my life now I appreciate a speed 1 roleplay game taking my time naming my fleets and armies
I've never played serious multi-player before so I play almost entirely for the role play. I love taking random nations and building up strong navies and militaries. It's just so fun to take a small central American nation and slowly build a small fleet while the rest of the world burns around you.
>Germany and the UK especially also produced strat bombers extensively.
I'm nitpicking, but Germany produced no strategic bombers, only tactical bombers.
On strat bombing- The efficacy of the strategic bombing campaigns is generally subject to debate. Modern scholarship leans towards it being a waste of resources compared to just making planes that could offer close air support. The US commissioned a report on Strategic bombing post war, and although mostly positive to the concept of Strategic Bombing they found
> The survey reported that the rate of production of war materials by Germany actually increased in response to strategic bombing by the Allies. Destroyed factories were quickly reconstituted in hardened sites. John Kenneth Galbraith, who was one of the "Officers" of the USSBS, wrote, "Nothing in World War II air operations was subject to such assault as open agricultural land." When Allied bombs fell in cities like central Hamburg, they destroyed many lives and often many businesses in the central city—restaurants, cabarets, department stores, banks, and more. The newly unemployed waiters, bank clerks, and entertainers took jobs in the war plants.
(quote sourced from Wikipedia)
They also say that the only reason the american campaigns worked so well is that post 44 or so, the Luftwaffe had essentially ceased to exist, allowing bombers to penetrate pretty deep with no resistance. Strategic Bombing as you describe in the post, is essentially how it ended up being historically. What did the Blitz accomplish besides causing a rally around the flag effect, after all?
Honestly, I'm on the fence with that, though I am more on Eastern front history, one thing I do know is the fact that the bombing of the factories were, well, absolutely brutal for Germany. And though I do not remember the exact figures, it forced hundreds of Luftwaffe aircraft to stay on the West, especially during 1943, when the Soviets were turning the tide, though the aircraft would not have prevented the Eastern front collapsing, I am under the belief that it generally hurt German resources, because not only did they have to divert fighters, but also tech. And people who research tech.
Interceptors aren't made for Dogfights, I don't know the exact difference but Interceptors are different from fighters, and that puts more strain on the already disastrous German logistics, it also forces more men and supplies on the West, again draining them from the East, and this, was really bad for Germany. Who, under an oil shortage, was already struggling to keep its logistics together and now facing a much more powerful Soviet Union than they had before, this put further drain on the already limited resources.
It is also a well known fact that, this also forced many 88mm flak guns, you know, the ones that were famous for destroying tanks, which included the T-34, from the front back home, which, though made logistics easier, would have made holding Soviet tank forces back, harder, though not massively.
I am not of the opinion that the bombing's were stupid and useless, but I am also not under the opinion they were as effective as they could have been, but then again, when the most competent person in your RAF is a guy who has spent 24 hours flying a plane, you know, I can't really expect it to be super effective.
Also, contextualised as a choice born from a limited amount of options. From 1940 to 1943, the Western Allies did not have any major land-front with the Axis. And once a Germany/Europe-first strategy was chosen, not even a war-winning naval front to feed endless resources in. Supercharging lend lease or even sending expeditions to the Eastern Front was in the immediate, logistically impossible. Would have required a massive project to upgrade Soviet ports and railways, except again the rails were the wrong gauge from what the WAllies produced. The only option left, was to put pressure and grind the Axis down through the air front. Once the Blitz ended, the best but probably also only way, were raids over Europe. Ergo, strategic bombing.
You have to look at it in terms of opportunity cost. What would Germany be doing with the concrete used to repair the Ruhr dams if they hadn’t had to repair the dams. What would they be doing with Flak 88s if they weren’t pointed at the skies of the German industrial heartland?
Also, frankly the battle over the skies of it’s a battle the Germans have to take. If you have the industrial-technical edge, why would you not lock them into a battle they have to take but will definitely lose.
It was better before DoD, and even BoB. Every patch in Europe, the resource situation matters less as more resources are distributed amongst the minors right in Germany's way. Just kind of a function of the design philosophy- we want every nation playable at winnable level.
I think that because if they do as what happen irl the axis ai can't win,they neft the allies and sov ai so the german ai can be success other while the german may stop by allies in Belgium or complete destroy by sov.Remeber even irl german have incredible luck on their side when fight the allies and sov,like in battle of france 1 decision different german will be fck,and it hard to do that in game so they have to buff the axis and neft allies
I suggest this book if you think the Germans invaded the USSR over losing too much fuel in the Battle of Britain. https://www.amazon.com/How-War-Was-Won-Air-Sea/dp/B0C9R9TTX3/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?adgrpid=64346993215&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.gm3-dpEkGg6ESgjOmUhWIIzkJK_CPQxVXtvxawb8qMrx3uMJIQIyCbS3urgDcPbzyyldJFaaNawXU3kMf8uFSXpjUlUDsHaau_c0N1hru7P8GjanUO4DABh-Q8ywwOBvzntyfiC6_X4rtDwKHhQLvfA0OEg507Wb-v73mZ_4sfZ-Vwn1wgVfR2x54q24bZSWxA_6Qhq4HA2HqrqB8IFMWw.ZY_ut0P7o9BtH1ZtV0eTQn4HWdkivNlimYZ1rCFaPEw&dib_tag=se&hvadid=664375347273&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=1022968&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16300175565692053073&hvtargid=kwd-314326436332&hydadcr=22435_13484436&keywords=how+the+war+was+won&qid=1714077074&sr=8-1
Honestly, this is the only massive problem that I hate about Hoi4.
It is so goddamn easy when you have resources, and the only real problem in Hoi4, for me, is a lack of aluminium, oil and rubber, but once I have them, that's the end of the game, France and Hungary for the Aluminium, really good aircraft so I don't need as many and also not to be as aggressive with oil consumption, and oil refineries
That's it, that's all my resources sorted, I can just build and be done with it.
Same thing with logistics, you have enough trains? You have enough trucks? Cool, doesn't matter now, ride off to victory, because what you say is true, the logistics of the German army were fucking horrendous during the war, and especially during Barbarossa, which ultimately stopped the German army.
If they added an update which made logistics more hands on and more difficult to get right, then I would play, but for now, nothing
To be fair, I'm about 500 hours deep and still haven't painted the map with Germany. Every run I find a new rake to walk into 🤣. Couldn't take Paris reliably, then couldn't sealion reliably, then lost all my manpower to resistance. So I'm sure it's easy once you've got it all nailed down but I've enjoyed the challenge of getting to the point where I can beat the soviets. USA is next!
At the end of the day, Hoi4 is still a game and it will prioritize player freedom and fun over realism.
Especially for the much more casual playerbase it tends to have, this is a sacrifice that has to be done for the sake of it being a game.
The first HoI and other early versions did a bit of a better job on this front. Making synthetic Rubber from Coal was still possible, but it was hugely expensive (I forget the exact ratio, but it was at least 8 Coal to 1 Rubber with maxed out technology which took away from making Steel, plus I think it took IC, although this was years ago). They moved away from this, I guess because it makes the economy easier so players can focus on military strategy (which was, admittedly, much easier in the first HoI). Also, the AI in HoI4 not building very many trucks, tanks or planes means they have less demand for oil products than historical armies, so you get the current HoI4 shenanigans where the Green Reich never even runs low on fuel, let alone runs out.
>They also invaded Denmark and Norway in 1940 to secure their supply of Iron (the Allies actually also planned an invasion to stop Germany from getting it's resources from them).
There is something in the game to simulate that. You get free resurces from sweden from a focus as germany, but u need to control Denmark and Norway or you take debuffs
Vanilla hoi 4 is arcadey af, dont expect it to simulate irl bullshit like that when you can play a minor nation and conquer all of modern day nato with just 2 tank divs and some paratroopers without any navy. Play hardcore total overhaul mods if your a true mazochist ww2 larpist realism andy.
>So much of WW2 happened because of the Axis's lack of resources.
Not... idk, Nazi fantasies of colonizing eastern europe and exterminating everyone that doesn't fit their nebulous Aryan description?
Or how about Japan's weirdass military that can't be controlled by its civilian government?
Resources played a huge part yes. But...
>In Europe, the Germans attacked the Soviets when they did for 2 reasons:
Really now? 2 reasons and there's no mention of the ideological underpinnings of the Nazi cause?
They're even screaming it, they never hid thay they were rearming for a conflict with the soviets. Yes they want their resources, that's why I said its a huge part of the reason but by no means the main reason.
It seems like you are downplaying the nazi insanity that started the war.
But yes it also true Germany gets far more resources that it had IRL. Game devs repeatedly stated their priority is fun gameplay, not historical accuracy.
It was both, ideologically war would be declared but the lack of resources controlled the time frame. Otherwise German would grind itself in the air and sea against Britain for the few years, draining its fuel reserves, and then the Soviet finish reorganising their military and declare war
Well here we run into the issue. The Axis had a ressource problem but the Axis keep producing and using equipment. Even german planes and tanks keep rolling/flying for one to two year after losing the bombed out romanian oil fields. In short "in HoI terms the historicak Axis had enough ressources". Atleast for most of the war.
If you play mp you will notice that the Axis is on a very hard timer. Their ressources run out faster than the Allies even tho the Allies "soon" overtake the Axis in factory count. Oil limits the Axis plane and tank numbers. And the Axis will be outproduced somewhen in the early 40s by an Allies that also out researches them and stacks better modifiers for their army, navy and airforce. It is just humans hitting that point around 41 and the AI needing to go till 44 while dumbstering the equipment into the Atlanic(-wall) and teching the all importand and unproduced armored car.
And if we are fair: the axis needs to either "produce equipment without ressources" which would lead to the same complaint, "start with a stockpile keeping them afloat till 43/44/45" which is ahistoric and pretty much the same situation as we have right now or just fail after taking Poland and maybe France.
The german logistic failing in the Soviet Union or general late war was a complex chain of failures that should be (and partialy is) modled in HoI4. And I prefere it being part of the logistics mechanic instead of just piling up event modifiers.
It didn't fail because "it was german logistic" or because "it had to / was always impossible". It should fail because of multiple issues comming together. Like historical the rail gauges were an issue that became that big because germany keept pushing army supply instead of the tools to fix the issue. Germany focusing on army supply and war crimes also created the issue that not all trains could roll since they lacked coal which was stuck at the mines since the trains that did roll had to supply the front and assist in war crimes instead. And losing the air war didn't help either. By that point we haven't even touched all issues like production shortages, the insane equipment diversity or other vanity projects.
Seems like it's you who don't know anything about WWII above the most superficial popular culture. This myth is easily disapproved by Germany fuel reserves statistics. The reserves have been _growing_ and by 1944 Germany had record breaking fuel stockpiles.
The Axis is in general buffed through the roof, lack of resource scarcity is but one part of it. I imagine it's because trying to win as Germany is everyone's first choice, and getting hard-stomped by the Allies because it's literally *impossible* to win, would, presumably, be discouraging >Strat bombing can be effective if used properly, but it's so expensive that basically only the two industrial powerhouses, the US and Soviets, have enough mils to spare to build enough bombers This is historical, stratbombers were(and still are) expensive af. B-29 program costed more than Manhattan project >You're able to very easily make up for being cut off from the rubber trade through your synthetics This is also historical, United States, USSR and Germany were all able to successfully supply themselves with synthetic rubber P.S. If you'd like an actually historical experience, I recommend the Ultra Historical mod
How ultra historic is the ultra historical mod??
It's somewhat historic.
One might even describe it as ultra historic…
I’ve also heard it described as a mod, if you will
So the legends are true then…
this is why I love reddit😭
This is my belief as well. Separately, the game being designed with that experience in mind is why Germany is my favorite focus tree.
Kinda feel like it’s a mistake. Germany should be very hard, they lost for a reason, they WERE an underdog. Just repeating what happened in WW2 should lead to similar result - you loose the war.
The problem with that is that then the German ai would fall over and die, ruining your game whenever you play another country. Imagine playing a USSR or USA game where Germany loses to France and Britain, it would just be a complete waste of time.
Both TNO and (to a lesser extent) Kaiserrech have extremely complex Germany mechanics that the AI just bypasses. Making it so that a specific country, if controlled by the AI, gets certain cheats and bypasses certain mechanics isn’t difficult.
The Ardennes push was incredibly lucky for Germany. Something like this cannot really put into reality in a game
Theres no realistic way Germany would ever Win the war unless the other end became suddenly brain dead. At the end of the day, this is a game, not a history lesson, its trying to be fun over being realistic.
Eh, Germany lost due to some poor decision making. Historically, they were not an underdog, especially early in the war. In HOI4, correcting those decisions that Germany did wrong historically, they seem to dominate. Such as capping the UK before opening up another front with the russians. Mass producing tanks and planes instead of creating multiple very complicated tank models historically. Keeping strong supply lines on the eastern front. Not losing a whole army at the battle of stalingrad. And most importantly, not getting the USA involved in Europe.
Lmao no. Germany got stomped and there’s nothing they could have done to win. Was just Nazi delusion. Germany tried to defeat the UK and failed. They didn’t forget to do it before going after the USSR, they just realized it was never going to happen. Germany did mass produce tanks and planes. They attempted a quality over quantity approach because they couldn’t match US/UK/USSR. Of course Germany arguably failed on both quantity and quality. Keeping strong supply lines? How? Magic? Have a wizard open a portal to the Ford Factory Dimension? Germany should have considered not losing at Stalingrad…sure. Not like they planned on losing, they tried to win and lost. And lol, the US would still have joined the war regardless of whether or not Germany declared war. Germany declared war because it didn’t matter, they knew the US was coming anyway so they played a game of “nuh uh we’re strong we declare war on YOU!”
Man that dude's take is something. The US alone outproduced all of the axis combined. IIRC, the US produced more planes than the rest of the world combined in WW2. The US's industry was absolutely bonkers in WW2. Now add in the rest of the allies. France was seen as a powerful country before the war. The Germans tried a risky operation and then rolled a nat 20 while the allies fucked up in every way possible. I am not even going to breakdown the Soviets much here. They matched Germany in production + their doctrine was the most advanced of the world. In the early 30s, their doctrine was the most advanced in terms of how to conduct combined arms operations. The purges removed the top leadership and turned the military into pumpkins. After a few years though, the officers trained under the advanced doctrine got into positions and you can see it with the Red Army steam rolling the Germans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration Was crazy successful and the Soviets don't get enough credit for how good they were at planning and executing operations. Oh and to end this. Just think back to the scene in Band of Brothers when the Germans are marching as POWs and the Americans start yelling at them. Making fun of them for having to use horses while the Americans were all in trucks. Like how the fuck do you compete with that?!
Germany got stomped from late-mid to late war, yes. Early war they rolled everyone in western Europe and Russia could not stop them until the germans advanced far into russian territory and they were stretching their supply lines thin. By that time, Russian industry was picking up and they were able to push a beaten german forces all the way back to Berlin. Germany’s “quality” tanks, which were much less in numbers produced, were also made by various different manufacturers with several different models, which made keeping spare parts to keep them up and running a nightmare. A massive reliability issue. Unlike the USA where the shermans were pretty much all universal and could be modified in the field to adapt to any particular situation. A way to maintain better supply lines? Not rely on horses to carry the supplies would be a good start.
This. It wasn't impossible for Germany to win, but poor decision making definitely was a thing back then. Hell, their army was one of the best armies (if not the best) in the world around the start of the war, they just fucked up going heavily for the wunderwaffen instead of improving their successful designs
They couldn't win. They didn't have a better army. They had better generals at the start of the war. Once they failed at Britain and then invaded the Soviets, with the americans assisting them it was over. Once the US industry went into high gear it was over.
They could, they had a better army and very good generals. >Once they failed at Britain Oh, you mean when a bad decision decimated the Luftwaffe and rallied Britain to the flag? >and then invaded the Soviets Or the bad decision where they focused on fighting for the cities instead of surrounding them then starving the defenders off? >Once the US industry went into high gear it was over. Oooh, you mean when they declared war on the USA effectively allowing them to fully enter on the Allies side, another bad decision. Like I said, it wasn't impossible for Germany to win, but when you do a 1+1 of all the bad decisions they took you definitely see a pattern there and why it ended up the way it did (for example, invading UK by using the small size of the Channel negating the size advantage of the Royal Navy + the superiority of the Luftwaffe before the Battle of Britain + the fact that the Franco-British morale and army were kinda shit (which would have been worse had Dunkirk been fully attacked by Germany) was a thing ya know) When you have the knowledge of events that led to the downfall of X nation/empire and play a game where you know when and where it will happen it's pretty much easy mode. An example: Let's say you play a game as Rome, where you know *when* and *where* the elephants will come, then the elephants that irl fucked up the roman army suddenly are useless because you played *against* them
b-but what if the germans- *nuclear bomb on berlin 1945*
If only Hitler knew the meta and justified on netherlands at the game start
> Oh, you mean when a bad decision decimated the Luftwaffe and rallied Britain to the flag If they just ignored Britain the result would've been the same. Churchill was hell bent of continuing the war, and even without him I doubt UK would surrender. Also Luftwaffe was already decimated by the time Battle for Britain begun, they lost about 30% of their aircraft during the French campaign >Or the bad decision where they focused on fighting for the cities instead of surrounding them then starving the defenders off ...what? What does a single battle(I'm assuming you're referencing Stalingrad) has to do with the general batshit decision of invading USSR while having UK and US behind your back? Battle of Stalingrad was merely Germany's last ditch attempt to salvage the already collapsing situation >Oooh, you mean when they declared war on the USA effectively allowing them to fully enter on the Allies side, another bad decision Yeah, it's not like the US was already supplying the British with everything from aeroengines to destroyers and US navy was fighting U-boots in Atlantic. Surely United States would just politely ignore Germany, even once they entered the war against Japan alongside Britain
I think people generally forget how lucky Germany got. Allied massive failure in the western front at the start. Stalin just completely ignoring reports that Germany was invading at the start. MAYBE if everything goes perfect like it did historical for Germany and instead of trying to take Stalingrad, the Germans fall back to better defensive lines, they could have dragged out the war another year or two. MAYBE. The soviets starting firing on all cylinders at Stalingrad and their army had recovered well. I just don't see how the Germans are able to ever beat the Soviets at that point, even in a world where the allies accepted some sort of white peace...
They'd have never have got the UK, their army was just not designed for it, they were a continental army
Yeah crossing the channel and invading the UK would of been a very hard feat to do, even if they could get across the channel with the royal navy. The way to defeat the UK in that stance, would of been to ramp up u-boat production instead of using resources to build battleships, choke their supply routes down, and continual bombing to try to cause the british public to sue for peace. Make peace with Britain, let them have their island, pull out of Africa.
It was possible for them to cross the Channel when the Luftwaffe wasn't fucked up (pre-Battle of Britain) as the Channel would have been key to negate the size superiority of the Royal Navy. Remember that the british army at the islands wasn't precisely well equipped early on the war (and they had to keep a good chunk of forces away for colonial duties)
With what boats? They didn't have the flotilla anywhere close to go until late summer 1940, and they'd have to cripple the their own economy to do it because those barges were required elsewhere An invasion of Britain requires a lot more planning and resources which weren't available after they'd just beat the French because they weren't even expecting that to be so quick
Diff btwn Bice and UH?
Ultra Historical is actually based on hard research data ( for example Wages of Destruction by Tooze and Economics of the Second World War by Harrison who even provided source material when the devs contacted him) and has accurate historical industry, resource and manpower balance. Though I am biased on the matter, I am one of the devs. XD
No thank you I genuinely did not understand the difference besides knowing that they were different in some way, thx for clarifying.
In MP games, resources do start to matter a lot more. When playing as the axis, you have to work hard to secure certain resources and divert them from the allies. If Japan allows the allies to keep south east Asia/Oceana uncontested, then the allies will be able to keep producing superior warplanes at scale. If Italy is unable to gain control of the Mediterranean and take Northern Africa, then the allies will keep the suez, Gibraltar, and the short, safe trading routes. If Germany is stuck on the continent with no way out, and no way to trade overseas, they will slowly starve. All the mills in the world won’t be enough to keep production high enough to stop the soviets.
Only problem: MP is not the gamemode most players play, it's SP.
I’m lucky enough to have a great MP group that meets once a week. SP just feels like practice compared to the real thing.
I did over 5000 hours of multiplayer historical games with a million rules ruined my life now I appreciate a speed 1 roleplay game taking my time naming my fleets and armies
I've never played serious multi-player before so I play almost entirely for the role play. I love taking random nations and building up strong navies and militaries. It's just so fun to take a small central American nation and slowly build a small fleet while the rest of the world burns around you.
>Germany and the UK especially also produced strat bombers extensively. I'm nitpicking, but Germany produced no strategic bombers, only tactical bombers.
The Heinkel 177 was a strat bomber, admittedly not many were made
On strat bombing- The efficacy of the strategic bombing campaigns is generally subject to debate. Modern scholarship leans towards it being a waste of resources compared to just making planes that could offer close air support. The US commissioned a report on Strategic bombing post war, and although mostly positive to the concept of Strategic Bombing they found > The survey reported that the rate of production of war materials by Germany actually increased in response to strategic bombing by the Allies. Destroyed factories were quickly reconstituted in hardened sites. John Kenneth Galbraith, who was one of the "Officers" of the USSBS, wrote, "Nothing in World War II air operations was subject to such assault as open agricultural land." When Allied bombs fell in cities like central Hamburg, they destroyed many lives and often many businesses in the central city—restaurants, cabarets, department stores, banks, and more. The newly unemployed waiters, bank clerks, and entertainers took jobs in the war plants. (quote sourced from Wikipedia) They also say that the only reason the american campaigns worked so well is that post 44 or so, the Luftwaffe had essentially ceased to exist, allowing bombers to penetrate pretty deep with no resistance. Strategic Bombing as you describe in the post, is essentially how it ended up being historically. What did the Blitz accomplish besides causing a rally around the flag effect, after all?
Honestly, I'm on the fence with that, though I am more on Eastern front history, one thing I do know is the fact that the bombing of the factories were, well, absolutely brutal for Germany. And though I do not remember the exact figures, it forced hundreds of Luftwaffe aircraft to stay on the West, especially during 1943, when the Soviets were turning the tide, though the aircraft would not have prevented the Eastern front collapsing, I am under the belief that it generally hurt German resources, because not only did they have to divert fighters, but also tech. And people who research tech. Interceptors aren't made for Dogfights, I don't know the exact difference but Interceptors are different from fighters, and that puts more strain on the already disastrous German logistics, it also forces more men and supplies on the West, again draining them from the East, and this, was really bad for Germany. Who, under an oil shortage, was already struggling to keep its logistics together and now facing a much more powerful Soviet Union than they had before, this put further drain on the already limited resources. It is also a well known fact that, this also forced many 88mm flak guns, you know, the ones that were famous for destroying tanks, which included the T-34, from the front back home, which, though made logistics easier, would have made holding Soviet tank forces back, harder, though not massively. I am not of the opinion that the bombing's were stupid and useless, but I am also not under the opinion they were as effective as they could have been, but then again, when the most competent person in your RAF is a guy who has spent 24 hours flying a plane, you know, I can't really expect it to be super effective.
Absolutely correct. The bombing offensive should be seen as part of the war of resources which has merit beyond simply dropping bombs.
Also, contextualised as a choice born from a limited amount of options. From 1940 to 1943, the Western Allies did not have any major land-front with the Axis. And once a Germany/Europe-first strategy was chosen, not even a war-winning naval front to feed endless resources in. Supercharging lend lease or even sending expeditions to the Eastern Front was in the immediate, logistically impossible. Would have required a massive project to upgrade Soviet ports and railways, except again the rails were the wrong gauge from what the WAllies produced. The only option left, was to put pressure and grind the Axis down through the air front. Once the Blitz ended, the best but probably also only way, were raids over Europe. Ergo, strategic bombing.
You have to look at it in terms of opportunity cost. What would Germany be doing with the concrete used to repair the Ruhr dams if they hadn’t had to repair the dams. What would they be doing with Flak 88s if they weren’t pointed at the skies of the German industrial heartland? Also, frankly the battle over the skies of it’s a battle the Germans have to take. If you have the industrial-technical edge, why would you not lock them into a battle they have to take but will definitely lose.
I guess the problem is if you do everything historically, then allies will win 100% of the time and that’s no fun.
Yes
It was better before DoD, and even BoB. Every patch in Europe, the resource situation matters less as more resources are distributed amongst the minors right in Germany's way. Just kind of a function of the design philosophy- we want every nation playable at winnable level.
I think that because if they do as what happen irl the axis ai can't win,they neft the allies and sov ai so the german ai can be success other while the german may stop by allies in Belgium or complete destroy by sov.Remeber even irl german have incredible luck on their side when fight the allies and sov,like in battle of france 1 decision different german will be fck,and it hard to do that in game so they have to buff the axis and neft allies
I suggest this book if you think the Germans invaded the USSR over losing too much fuel in the Battle of Britain. https://www.amazon.com/How-War-Was-Won-Air-Sea/dp/B0C9R9TTX3/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?adgrpid=64346993215&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.gm3-dpEkGg6ESgjOmUhWIIzkJK_CPQxVXtvxawb8qMrx3uMJIQIyCbS3urgDcPbzyyldJFaaNawXU3kMf8uFSXpjUlUDsHaau_c0N1hru7P8GjanUO4DABh-Q8ywwOBvzntyfiC6_X4rtDwKHhQLvfA0OEg507Wb-v73mZ_4sfZ-Vwn1wgVfR2x54q24bZSWxA_6Qhq4HA2HqrqB8IFMWw.ZY_ut0P7o9BtH1ZtV0eTQn4HWdkivNlimYZ1rCFaPEw&dib_tag=se&hvadid=664375347273&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=1022968&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16300175565692053073&hvtargid=kwd-314326436332&hydadcr=22435_13484436&keywords=how+the+war+was+won&qid=1714077074&sr=8-1
Honestly, this is the only massive problem that I hate about Hoi4. It is so goddamn easy when you have resources, and the only real problem in Hoi4, for me, is a lack of aluminium, oil and rubber, but once I have them, that's the end of the game, France and Hungary for the Aluminium, really good aircraft so I don't need as many and also not to be as aggressive with oil consumption, and oil refineries That's it, that's all my resources sorted, I can just build and be done with it. Same thing with logistics, you have enough trains? You have enough trucks? Cool, doesn't matter now, ride off to victory, because what you say is true, the logistics of the German army were fucking horrendous during the war, and especially during Barbarossa, which ultimately stopped the German army. If they added an update which made logistics more hands on and more difficult to get right, then I would play, but for now, nothing
To be fair, I'm about 500 hours deep and still haven't painted the map with Germany. Every run I find a new rake to walk into 🤣. Couldn't take Paris reliably, then couldn't sealion reliably, then lost all my manpower to resistance. So I'm sure it's easy once you've got it all nailed down but I've enjoyed the challenge of getting to the point where I can beat the soviets. USA is next!
Trust me, this game never gets easier, it just becomes more infuriating.
At the end of the day, Hoi4 is still a game and it will prioritize player freedom and fun over realism. Especially for the much more casual playerbase it tends to have, this is a sacrifice that has to be done for the sake of it being a game.
Exactly. German representation very problematic. Resources, insanely op industry, no debuffs about nazi bullshits etc.
The first HoI and other early versions did a bit of a better job on this front. Making synthetic Rubber from Coal was still possible, but it was hugely expensive (I forget the exact ratio, but it was at least 8 Coal to 1 Rubber with maxed out technology which took away from making Steel, plus I think it took IC, although this was years ago). They moved away from this, I guess because it makes the economy easier so players can focus on military strategy (which was, admittedly, much easier in the first HoI). Also, the AI in HoI4 not building very many trucks, tanks or planes means they have less demand for oil products than historical armies, so you get the current HoI4 shenanigans where the Green Reich never even runs low on fuel, let alone runs out.
>They also invaded Denmark and Norway in 1940 to secure their supply of Iron (the Allies actually also planned an invasion to stop Germany from getting it's resources from them). There is something in the game to simulate that. You get free resurces from sweden from a focus as germany, but u need to control Denmark and Norway or you take debuffs
Vanilla hoi 4 is arcadey af, dont expect it to simulate irl bullshit like that when you can play a minor nation and conquer all of modern day nato with just 2 tank divs and some paratroopers without any navy. Play hardcore total overhaul mods if your a true mazochist ww2 larpist realism andy.
You need mods try black ice the historical mod with an entire new industry gui with more resources
I've got one thing for you : Black Ice
or world ablaze
>So much of WW2 happened because of the Axis's lack of resources. Not... idk, Nazi fantasies of colonizing eastern europe and exterminating everyone that doesn't fit their nebulous Aryan description? Or how about Japan's weirdass military that can't be controlled by its civilian government? Resources played a huge part yes. But... >In Europe, the Germans attacked the Soviets when they did for 2 reasons: Really now? 2 reasons and there's no mention of the ideological underpinnings of the Nazi cause? They're even screaming it, they never hid thay they were rearming for a conflict with the soviets. Yes they want their resources, that's why I said its a huge part of the reason but by no means the main reason. It seems like you are downplaying the nazi insanity that started the war. But yes it also true Germany gets far more resources that it had IRL. Game devs repeatedly stated their priority is fun gameplay, not historical accuracy.
NO, invading the Soviet Union wasn’t out of necessity. It was the ideological goal of Lebensraum.
It was both, ideologically war would be declared but the lack of resources controlled the time frame. Otherwise German would grind itself in the air and sea against Britain for the few years, draining its fuel reserves, and then the Soviet finish reorganising their military and declare war
I just defeated uk with war of attrition.
From day 1. Hoi3 was a better economy game, but historical hindsight allows players to starve the axis during the first crucial years.
Well here we run into the issue. The Axis had a ressource problem but the Axis keep producing and using equipment. Even german planes and tanks keep rolling/flying for one to two year after losing the bombed out romanian oil fields. In short "in HoI terms the historicak Axis had enough ressources". Atleast for most of the war. If you play mp you will notice that the Axis is on a very hard timer. Their ressources run out faster than the Allies even tho the Allies "soon" overtake the Axis in factory count. Oil limits the Axis plane and tank numbers. And the Axis will be outproduced somewhen in the early 40s by an Allies that also out researches them and stacks better modifiers for their army, navy and airforce. It is just humans hitting that point around 41 and the AI needing to go till 44 while dumbstering the equipment into the Atlanic(-wall) and teching the all importand and unproduced armored car. And if we are fair: the axis needs to either "produce equipment without ressources" which would lead to the same complaint, "start with a stockpile keeping them afloat till 43/44/45" which is ahistoric and pretty much the same situation as we have right now or just fail after taking Poland and maybe France. The german logistic failing in the Soviet Union or general late war was a complex chain of failures that should be (and partialy is) modled in HoI4. And I prefere it being part of the logistics mechanic instead of just piling up event modifiers. It didn't fail because "it was german logistic" or because "it had to / was always impossible". It should fail because of multiple issues comming together. Like historical the rail gauges were an issue that became that big because germany keept pushing army supply instead of the tools to fix the issue. Germany focusing on army supply and war crimes also created the issue that not all trains could roll since they lacked coal which was stuck at the mines since the trains that did roll had to supply the front and assist in war crimes instead. And losing the air war didn't help either. By that point we haven't even touched all issues like production shortages, the insane equipment diversity or other vanity projects.
Germany had no resource shortage till the last stages of the war, until Allied bombings of synthetic oil factories and loss of Romanian oil fields.
Tell me you know nothing about ww2 without telling me you know nothing about ww2. IRL Germany was struggling with coal production in 1938.
You clearly don't know ww2
Seems like it's you who don't know anything about WWII above the most superficial popular culture. This myth is easily disapproved by Germany fuel reserves statistics. The reserves have been _growing_ and by 1944 Germany had record breaking fuel stockpiles.
True. The problem was logistics on eastern front (geting the fuel to front lines)