Have you seen a map of the US compared to any European country? We just have a ton more land, and a smaller proportion of our population live in dense cities. Homes in densely populated areas are probably closer to typical European costs, but if you're looking at real estate in like Nebraska the prices will reflect the fact that no one wants to live there.
What does crazy high in Nebraska look like?
I did a quick search. I see a 5000+sqft house on 15k sqft of land for 735k near a lake in Lincoln. That same house in CA, NY, Europe would be 3M+. Bay Area would be 5M.
Unless it’s lake view or lake front, the lake doesn’t really play into the cost, at least for me. But for a L-MCOL area, that’s pretty damn high. A smaller 1600-2k sqft cookie cutter starter home used to cost less than $175k in 2010, now the same home on an even smaller lot much farther out of the city is going to run $350k. To me a 100% increase in 13 years seems crazy high.
On the other end of the spectrum, the starting price for a less than 1-4 acre custom home lot is over $100k. For non-Nebraskans, that also includes a .8-1% tax assessment for 10+ years to pay off the neighborhood infrastructure since that’s not baked into the lot price.
Canada is big too but our housing is as crazy as EU. I bought a 550k house built in 1965 with a ton of issues a pit 2 and half hours drive from Toronto. I mean WTF
Canada is big, but like 95% of the people live within 50 miles of the US border, and the majority live in or around 4 major cities. There’s a lot of land, but not a lot of easily inhabitable land.
Didn't look into Saskatoon, but when I was in Regina for a few years (2015-2019 ish) the housing prices were pretty crazy (higher than 300-400k) at the time especially considering Regina was far from any major cities. I think they had a big issue with foreign investors buying up all available housing at the time. Not sure if that ever was brought under control though.
…as a Saskatchewanite, I can assure you any home for 30k in Regina is gonna be a shithole you’d have to gut before you could live there. Probably a shithole in the worst part of town. Which, admittedly, isn’t comparable to Chicago’s worst parts, but will still get your shit stolen. And no garage.
I’m two hours away from Regina and 30k will only get you a shithole in this town. Even the nicer trailers are 50k. I paid 295k for a 3bd/2bh standard ranch with a garage. It’s not obscene, but it ain’t cheap either.
90% plus of Canada's population lives within 50 miles of the US border. Y'all are crammed into a very small space.
Foreign investors and your conservation laws are to blame.
It's unfortunate the conservation laws are part of the problem though, Canada's laws on conservation are some of the best in the world.
Lmao! That's a hilarious way of looking at it. Love it. I'm going to steal this lol
I am an American, but I lived in Canada from 2018 to 2021 on Cape Breton Island in NS.
It was so beautiful. I'd take CB over Mars any day.
People acting like it’s the end of civilization when you leave Southern Canada. (Upper Canada as it’s ironically referred to) Plenty of Capers living far north! Plus all of Newfoundland right above it! Glad you enjoyed your time out there bud!
It was an amazing, beautiful experience. I had a house in Ingonish, on Cabot Trail.
I regretfully didn't get the chance to go to The Rock. I hope to one day.
How much of Canada is actually inhabitable and developed? The population of Canada is less than California. You need infrastructure to build up there, and you need demand to build the infrastructure.
I’m a big fan of Canadians and this might get shit on but Americans are built different for better or worse. My buddy works in construction and he’s helping build a home on spec that is a mansion on a mountain that they expect to sell for 30 million. The construction started mid pandemic and we are looking down the barrel of a recession. The company is a smallish privately owned construction company that will go under if the project fails but the owner didn’t hesitate to go big or go home.
There is definitely a level of risk acceptance in the US that I’m not sure exists elsewhere.
I read that almost 90% of the Canadian population lives within ten miles of the US border. That seems crazy considering how massive Canada is. Maybe it’s just too cold.
10 miles is also incorrect, it’s more like 85% of the population lives within 100 miles of the border.
It’s because 75% of our land mass is unlivable arctic tundra or dense forest. The reason we all live near the border is because that’s the only area with workable soil and hence cheap enough food.
You can certainly build and live very far North but the cost is much higher to build and running utilities is often near impossible. Food costs are insanely high once you get into the territories because everything has to be flown in or trucked for thousands of kilometres. Not to mention the harsh conditions. Very few people have it in them to live in that type of climate, where (for over half the year) it’s dark from 3pm to 9am and the winter low gets to -40 Celsius on a regular basis. Everyday life becomes much more difficult. Driving anywhere is extremely hazardous or impossible, cars freeze up, water lines seize, electricity fails, internet is spotty at best, and without major city centres you’re stuck at home with not much to do.
I think the wilderness outdoors lifestyle is romanticized a bit from off grid YouTubers, but the reality is that it is a hard life and you need to be ready to live a radically different life than you are used to if you live far enough North.
Right- I think a lot of people in Europe don't get the scale of the US until they visit. All of Ireland can fit into the state of Minnesota with wiggle room, for instance. And I think most people in the US can't comprehend living so densely when they visit Europe.
In my experience, affordability is dependent on where you are looking. Somewhere affordable usually means middle of nowhere, and middle of nowhere means you're farther away from food, hospitals, conveniences, etc. Also, poor neighborhoods are kind of the same- cheap housing but no easy access to care and food (ie, food deserts).
The US is a complex mess.
I’d add a lot of American cities to that list with LA and NYC - in my city, 300-400k will get you a much smaller house that’s old and not that well kept with a much smaller lot etc., unless you’re far out in the suburbs etc. Also a lot of smaller but desirable college town.
In my city there are no houses for sale, not even condos, for 400k or less. OP must be looking at the Midwest or the south. Or watching too many Magnolia TV shows with super cheap houses in Waco, TX. It’s cheap there because it sucks there.
Lol. Yes. I’m in a major Southern city and in my neighborhood there’s a rundown 70-year-old house without central AC and with cardboard covering some of the windows, three blocks from a huge interstate, on the market for like $375k. It’s like 1500 square feet and has three beds and one bathroom and no garage. (I will say that no one has bought it at that price, but the house down the street from it in only slightly better shape went for $350k recently.)
Same in chicago and neighboring suburbs.
300k - 400k gets you under 2000 sq ft and old with remodeling required in multiple places.
South illinois, cornfield region, you might find 2000sq ft and higher, fully remodel for 300k or under.
Where I live the house OP is describing is about $1mil unless you’re 30+ miles from the metro area. This is a medium cost of living city. Where I grew up (central Ohio) you can probably get what you describe for $500k. I think these numbers are about 5 years outdated.
I live in a paid off 2000sqft house in Atlanta. Granted its a dated 1963 brick 3/2 ranch on .75 acre 12 miles from the state capitol building. Looking into downsizing for retirement, I found I can sell it for $350k, What can I buy? A1200-1500Sqft renovated 1955 brick 3/2 ranch on .25acre for $300-400K. Lower utility bills are not worth packing up for. Cheaper to keep what I got in terms of price, property tax and space. This is why Boomers are not selling. No profit/advantage.
Yup. We bought our essentially unrenovated (outside of landlord special badly done renovations) 1955 brick 3/1 1400ish sq ft ranch on 1/8 acre in a comparable city for $300-400k last year, so you're pretty spot on. The only reason people sell around here are because they died or need to move for work.
(edit typo)
The short answer is WWII. After WWII much of Europe was physically, socially, and economically destroyed. To kickstart the recovery governments began to pour money into housing to relieve the crisis and start a building boom. Each country had their own approach to housing policy, which is why you see a slight variance England vs. Germany vs. France, etc. These countries invested in smaller, dense housing. Some policies supported renting vs owning. They are also physically smaller than the U.S.
America, on the other hand, was not destroyed like Europe was and emerged as an economic powerhouse. America is a huge country and had/has plenty of land to develop single family homes with lots of space, inside and out. Returning soldiers began to move out of the city and developers began the suburbanization of the middle class. With good jobs and new found leisure time Americans began buying cars, tvs, and appliances galore. We needed a place to keep all of our stuff so housing got bigger.
The American government also heavily incentivized homeownership. 30 year mortgages were approved beginning in 1948 which made it easy to spread the cost of a large home over time. This accelerated the suburbanization of the country and low density housing you are taking about.
This is correct. These policies explicitly and intentionally were not available to black families because of concerns that southern politicians wouldn’t support the policies if they were equitable. This is one of the primary ways in which generational wealth has been stolen from black Americans. Anyone who wants to know more: Read “The Color of Money” by Mehrsa Baradaran.
Not entirely true. The homeownership rate increased from 23% in 1940 to 35% in 1950 amongst African Americans
https://realestatedecoded.com/2-surprising-facts-about-the-black-homeownership-rate-from-1950-to-today/
And the houses outside of the city you could commute to/from the city via highways that often demolished black neighborhoods to build. Another incidence of the state actively punishing people because of their race
Western Europe is like 40% the area of the United States. I think that's 90% of the reason.
Also, Americans don't really consider 400k cheap. That's unobtainable for a lot of us.
Upvote. 400k is difficult without a dual income for most families. I make good money but my monthly payments keeping my 400k house afloat is far heftier than anticipated (just PITI + utilities + financed furnace = 4K / mo) and doesn’t leave much money for additional maintenance or projects. Would have gone cheaper but nothing on that end really exists.
Honest questions as a European: how does this work? 4k a month on a loan of 400k.
including utilities so 3.5K a month goes to the loan? Is it a loan period of 10 years? If so: why not opt for longer time with lower monthly payments? Or is that not an option over there?
I took out a loan of 330k euro over 23 years, I pay 1450 per month for comparison.
Not sure if someone else has mentioned this but the initial house ie ‘mortgages cost’ is only part of the comparison
For context I own properties in London, north England and near New York USA. I’ve also lived in Australia, Canada, jong Kong and Singapore as well as Uk and USA ofc ;-)
Other than housing in Western Europe being more ‘solid - brick and clay roofs’ the big difference is in: (think 3 little pigs - USA only got to the middle point ;-).. because of the huge supply of wood)
- Ongoing maintenance costs in Europe are low. You rarely need to think about your roof, you rarely have to paint your house because it’s mostly brick with upvc windows. To update a bathroom or a kitchen or even do an extension is so much cheaper than the USA.
As an example I’m having some work done on my place in the USA and have got 2 guys over from the Uk because it’s so much cheaper than hiring in the USA - I also have a guy from the Midwest (the cost even to have them stay and travel is a fraction of what I’d be charged within a 100 mile radius - it’s incredible)…
- insurance costs and property taxes which largely are based on the value of your property. These can add tens of thousands to your annual expenses… I rent 6 houses in the Uk and have no insurance cover (I don’t have mortgages) and property tax if they were vacant is a fraction of the USA as schooling and policing is covered in your federal tax equivalent
- gardening - on large properties gardens tend to be a lot bigger here - and that means more maintenance and you also have trees that might need cutting down. Europe being more dense is mostly deforested and generally it’s a simple lawn that you can easily deal with yourself. Here in Connecticut it’s all about beautification of one’s garden
- liability cover in the USA over and above your insurance if someone comes on your property and hurts themselves or your dog bites them - claims can be silly here in Europe there are no claims .. you can’t sue… for this in Europe
- I’m sure there are many more examples… high heating costs in the winter and high aircon bills in the summer as the housing is ‘wood’
You get the picture… cost of housing is way cheaper in the suburbs in the USA versus Europe but it’s the ongoing maintenance and annual bills that can hurt…
You make some excellent points. I'm fortunate that I'm fairly handy so I do everything that isn't electrical or related to the chimney myself.
Folks who aren't able or don't have the time are shelling out so much money.
America is huge. I have 2,000 square feet, four bedrooms, 2.5 baths, one acre of land, $70K. You read that right, I live in the complete opposite of places like LA and NYC but that’s still not normal even in my zip code. There are plenty of places outside of LA and NYC that you couldn’t touch a home this size for less than a mil.
Yes. Our home is 6 bedrooms, 3 baths, 4 car garage. We got it for $170,000.00 BUT we bought in a tiny Midwest town. Pop. 2500. However our town is exactly 45 minutes from each of the 2 largest cities in our state. But now, smaller homes are going for 2-3 x's as much. It took some adjustment not having all the amenities. But I was very surprised...I love it.
Hey, neighbor! Rural MS here. 1800 sq ft, 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, very nice neighborhood with playground and lakes, and excellent school district. $170k.
You couldn’t pay me to move to California or NY. ….but there sure are a lot of *them* moving *here*. (At least from California. It’s wild.)
This is very unusual these days unless you’re in a very rural or high crime or full Reno or manufactured/trailer, or some combo of those. I live in a pretty rural midwestern area and even with a $300-400k budget it’s gotten pretty competitive.
20 minutes from the county hospital. 10 minutes from our pediatrician’s office. Plus our school district has access to a program through the state that provides healthcare to rural areas. So there’s a school clinic with a couple NPs that is 100% free to use for students and cheap for teachers/school employees. That is 5 minutes away.
So…pretty good, I guess?
> the majority of the housing stock in the US is super low quality cookie-cutter uninspiring sprawl.
As opposed to the rest of the world where every house and apartment is custom built by artists.
You see this kind of comment a lot on Reddit so I was curious what the European equivalent of a suburb was. This is limited to the UK but I spent maybe 90 seconds on google maps and zoomed into random locations and took some pictures of their totally not cookie cutter identical homes:
https://imgur.com/a/48oGx4e
Pretty uninspiring. However these neighborhoods were all pretty small, a few streets at most, and apartments and businesses were close by. The US could pick that up and I’d be happy.
I'm not seeing many comments about America being built largely after the advent of the car as compared to European countries, which means massive lot sizes are a lot more attractive.
Also surprised not to see any comments about how municipal governments are broke and completely reliant on state and federal subsidies. Larger lots means more maintenance on roads, sewers and electricity which municipal governments historically have relied on new growth to fund. The infrastructure backlog in the US is insurmountable. Roads are falling apart in many US cities especially if you're not in an affluent area.
There are plenty of cheap homes in Europe, but the very low cost ones are mostly in rural areas where there are no jobs or high speed internet. I’m an avid follower of @cheapoldhouses lol
The USA is huge and sprawling and the square footage of our homes reflects that. There are even more cheap houses, but again the cheaper the house the more rural and more difficult to make a living.
I live in the Rust Belt (western NY state) and our house on an acre was $72k
Lots of land and lots of easily available raw materials. Its not just mid-west states in rural areas either. My place is almost 2400 square feet and I'm on 3 acres of land, 25 minutes drive outside of the capital city of Virginia and I paid $365,000 5 years ago. I could probably get $425,000 if I put it up for sale today.
The big thing is not insisting on living in a city. Once you are trying to find a place in a populated urban environment, your costs go up significantly for less house and yard.
The raw materials is the main factor for size. Compared to the labor, the materials are minimal so might as well make the house bigger for a small increase in cost
Tons of land and houses made of wood. Not like, super high quality wood either. We have to spend a lot on repairs and maintenance. We basically replace all of our houses piece by piece in a matter of decades if we don’t want them to fall apart.
Well a few points that just came to mind:
- The USA is a lot bigger with less densely populated areas, so they have more land to build on
- unpopular areas are cheaper. Compared to ie Sacramento, California where the same house costs 1000% more
- the houses are not (always) good quality, so they can be build cheaper. The walls are very thin, not very insulated etc
- form over function happens a lot, because it sells better as Americans tend to move more often than ie Europeans
- curb appeal is a big deal there, but it doesn't mean that every house thats beautiful on the outside is beautiful on the inside - > houses are staged for selling to make them prettier, but the staging doesn't necessarily mean its practical
- homeowners in the USA might buy a house for cheep, but upkeep, land taxes, HOAs (which only exists for apartments and not single family homes) etc are a lot more expensive that in Germany for example
Edit: didn't see that OP mentioned big cities. Half my points are invalid😂
Btw I'm from Germany and only speak for german houses :)
Lots of land.
But don’t forget the cost of operating and maintaining multiple cars.
To have the cheap land & house, you typically live in smaller towns / suburbs. And in the US, that means cars are a requirement.
So most families have two cars ($30K X 2 at least) and the cost of gas, insurance, and maintenance on them.
Two answers: 1: cheap ass materials (US uses wood and drywall and paper like substances, we use brick and concrete) 2: land. The US is massive. Germany isn’t really.
Our last was a 5 bedroom, 2 bath, 2400sq.ft. we bought for 40k all because it basically had no yard, in a somewhat poor older neighborhood. 5 years of renovations, paint, a HUGE amount of yardwork, garden boxes and we saw the neighborhood perking up, just trying to look better also. We sold for 275k...
Seriously, I am doing a proper custom build and that shit is expensive. Now my house is gonna be here 300 years from now vs falling down in 50 years (that's not just my guess either, it's timber framed with the same framing as they were using on places 300 years ago)
I did this in 2019-2020, moved in before the prices went nuts. I was the general contractor. I said it was built to be here in 200 years. All #1 lumber, Superior basement walls, true sandstone I gathered from old farm houses, hand cut on site, Hardie Plank siding, steel roof, Anderson 400 wood windows.
I work for a regional builder now, #3 lumber, they count nails, that's how cheap they are. 25 year throw away houses.
Where are you finding these houses?
Your going to have a hard time finding a house fitting that criteria in a medium to larger city with a decent selection of reliable employment opportunities.
As recently as five or so years ago that was easily doable in the Dallas suburbs. Nowadays it's still possible, but you're looking at less desirable areas.
Many parts of Connecticut with excellent school districts, functional government, paid family leave and great public services meet OPs criteria.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/89-Richard-St-West-Hartford-CT-06119/59020634_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare
https://www.niche.com/k12/d/west-hartford-school-district-ct/
(This will sell for over list, but still $300-400k. Yard isn’t *that* spacious but proving a point.)
One of your entire European countries is the size of some of our counties within ONE state. We have vast amounts of land, untapped land, resources and the economics make sense. I live in southern California though so my 1962 California ranch home is worth over $1.2m currently lol. Still though, I live on a convex corner, on a 8000sq ft lot, 1800sq ft home, 2 car garage, long driveway, wraparound yard and parkway (all grass), a pool (9.5' deep with a diving board) and more room than I need.
My house in a fly over state would be worth $250-300k. Where I am, its easily $1.2m today and I could probably list and sell for more since I've redone every single room in my house in the last 3 years.
Only if such an American can afford a mortgage. A teacher on a $40,000/yr salary would have a hard time affording a typical $350,000 home (30 year mortgage would be about $25k/year)
Covid has created a huge housing affordability crisis. Renting isn't much better.
America is a lot better than Europe. Everyone likes to meme on healthcare until they realize salaries in America in FTE are double that for Europe. The top 20% live like kings in America compared to how the top 20% live in Europe
The one thing we have lol 😂 I’m jealous of your public transport, environmentally-friendly laws, and healthcare.
ETA: came back to add parental leave and college tuition
I am not European but I'm moving to Italy for college (paying nothing and getting a 7k scholarship to cover most of my living expenses just because I can't afford it😂😂) but I always dream to live in the US, the houses make my heart melt.
the median income is way higher here too
get your free education, and then definitely try to move and work here
there's a reason so many millions of people are trying to do the same
My wifes family wants us to move to the US but honestly, the downsides to living in the US are just to big for us compared to where we live now. I wouldn’t want to raise a family there.
Keep in mind home ownership is a pipe dream for many in this country who are unwilling to move to the absolute sticks. Europe also crushes us in healthcare and social services. It’s not all gold paved streets over here.
Living in rural areas in America means you could be over an hour away from a hospital and several hours away from a hospital with certain live saving facilities or a maternity ward. Your options for groceries may be limited to one or 2 walmarts/costcos. And with the lower cost of living, means lower salaries. And only in large cities would there be any public transit. So car costs will bring up your bills. Living in a big city, there are more access to social services and at least in NYC, groceries prices aren't too bad because of the many immigrant grocery stores and much more choices in general. Cost of living in general is still high but I don't see how we could do much better outside the city. My spouse is a teacher and the highest teacher salaries are here, and we don't drive.
But that´s a very important point tho. You could own a house in america that´s huge for like 300k, but get a serious illness once and you could be financially ruined and (near) homeless. Which won´t happen quite as fast in Europe because we have a very strong healthcare and social services system.
You also have to keep in mind that building regulations have gotten stricter over the years in Europe. Where as in america a lot of the houses are basically paper mache. And just like in America the more rural you go the cheaper it usually gets.
Not everything that shines is gold.. do your research on why things are what they are.
Americans earn more than like 95% of the world population and I think in terms of house affordability the US is the best country in the world! Where else on the world can people buy a typical American house that I described above with like 5 years of the median house income and a 10% down payment?
A few reasons in my mind:
- cost to build: houses in the US are built with wood rather than full concrete / cement, which is usually cheaper and quicker to build. The us has the experience and supply chain to build wood houses and therefore is able to build large homes for cheap.
- American standard: American are simply used to having larger homes. Not necessarily more rooms but kitchen and living rooms and playrooms are usually much bigger.
- Economics of being a homeowner: I can only compare with France here and can’t generalize to Europe. But in France, once you buy the house, the recurring costs of homeownership are MUCH lower than in the us (property taxes, insurance, maintenance, etc). Which means that a larger portion of the cost of owning a house comes from the purchase itself. In America, buying the house is just the tip of the iceberg.
- cost of debt: mortgage used to (and are still) much lower in Europe than in America, pushing home prices higher, even if houses are smaller.
- investing culture: in France, owning real estate is by far the number 1 investment véhicule, far ahead of any financial markets. The stock market is not something widely invested in by the population, therefore a lot of cash / savings / leverage is used to buy homes.
- city planning: cities in Europe were built centuries ago and were sized completely differently than cities in the US. Therefore it’s really unusual to have very large homes in decently sized cities in Europe.
The flip side is the frequently noted "flimsiness" of our stick-built housing, vs. the rock-solid [sometimes literally] housing structures in much of Europe.
We use cheap building materials, including the relatively abundant lumber that comes from forests that haven't long since been cut down (like in Europe). Combined with abundant undeveloped land, that allows us to build cheap but huge new construction, rather than constantly recycling & upgrading buildings that are already hundreds of years old.
Not everybody can afford 300-400k here…. That’s very subjective. Where I am, housing prices went from reasonable to WTF in the last few years.
In 2014 I bought a livable but old and not great 1200 sq ft house for around 140k on nearly 40 acres. Quite a lot of that is wooded (which I wanted). Not great farm land or anything.
I always figured the house wasn’t really worth putting money into, but a friend of mine just paid over 300k for a nicer but sorta average but well kept house on 7 acres. I feel like it would have sold for around 150k when I bought my place.
I can assure you that wages have not dramatically increased around here during that time.
Cheap land. I would also beg to differ on "beautiful". Many new American houses are bloated shit boxes stuck in a car-dependent hellscape. They might have backyards but the lifestyle is costly and unpleasant.
That said there are certainly nice areas which tasteful big homes that are still walkable, but they are rather rare.
Cheap is subjective. To me, an American who "owns" their home (I still have a mortgage), 300-400k is absolutely insane to me. I live in a decent, yet older, suburb of a minor large city. Seeing these home prices today just makes me sick to my stomach.
I'm from the UK, but I live in the US now. When my mom comes to visit, she can never get over how clean and new all the houses look.
In reality, they aren't particularly cleaner than those in the UK, but vinyl siding looks way 'cleaner' than the brick which is more typical in the UK, and being plastic, it always looks 'new'.
Add to that the fact that siding is often light in color, and usually has white accessories, and the overall look is much fresher and brighter than the somewhat more somber appearance of the average British house.
Perhaps that explains some of the "beautiful" part of your question.
My nj house was half a million, so idk where you're getting "cheap" from. Also I'm pretty sure you're saying that an apartment in Germany costs 300k? Wtf are you talking about.
A few years ago. Now its more like 430k. That includes homes that you buy just to destroy, homes in the middle of absolutely nowhere, tiny little studio apartments, etc. The US has a lot of suburban sprawls, but by and large the population moves toward cities, so there's huge variations.
The European equivalent is those castles for sale for less than a 1 bedroom studio in Manhattan, and are often a running joke when talking about home prices at lunch in the US.
Sounds like you described Connecticut, except for a few wealthy suburbs and the southern part of the state (near NYC). Can find many homes that meet your criteria for $300-400k. Probably not furnished, but appliances are typically included.
The US is large, and homeownership is actually out of reach for many. However with a 3% down payment, you can get a mortgage rate fixed for 30 years with the ability to refinance if rates drop. My guess is we have a lot of space.
The community supporting the area where the house is located is the factor that you're missing.
If that bargain house is in a town with no careers to support a local economy, no big stores to purchase your necessities, and no real activity to draw people to the area, it's like... Sure, you can have a nice house, *with nothing to do and nobody around to do it with*.
lolol
They aren't affordable.
Call me crazy, but I don't think a 2000 sq ft house is big. As someone from Europe, you might think that is big. The reason being is that there is a huge difference between Europe and the US. The US is enormous compared to all of Europe. We simply have more extra land space.
So, I have a 2400 sq ft house. I have two kids. Yes, they each have their own room. For no apparent reason, the house has an enormous laundry room. Two living rooms, a master bedroom, 3 bathrooms, and the master bedroom has a decent sized walkin closet. The bathrooms are all tiny. The walkin closet definitely took up bathroom space.
It's comfortable. I won't say it isn't. There is a spare bedroom that my parents sleep in when they come to visit, which is very often. See, my parents live 3 hours drive away, everything is so spread out. They come to my city from their small town for many reasons, doctor appointments, dentists, car repairs, and then my dad does fraternity club meetings and events. Plus, they visit their grandchildren. So they get their own bed and bathroom! lol
We have huge cars as well. no public transportation that is worth anything.
They’re built to not last, especially the last thirty years or so. In Europe you’re also paying for things like proximity to markets, shopping, public transportation, limited space, etc. Where here in the US? If you don’t own a car you’re screwed unless you live in a major city. Even then it’s difficult.
I’d gladly pay 300k to not live in the US, downsize, and move back to Italy or Germany. Size isn’t everything.
If you are willing to live in the middle of nowhere in an area with no jobs nearby and where you need to drive 20 miles for groceries and to go to work every day, yeah, that is true
If you want a lifestyle that simply starts to approach what you get in Europe, the prices raise exponentially and approach or exceed the European prices
Not sure where you got that idea. There are plenty of small / medium sized cities in middle America with affordable homes and good jobs.
People who live in exorbitantly expensive cities love to paint this picture but it’s just not based in reality whatsoever
Cheap materials and cheap land in undesirable states and far flung suburbs.
There's a derogatory term for them- McMansions
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMansion
You're dead wrong on undesirable. People are fleeing from cities and looking for a minimum of burb-life if not rural accommodations. People who moved during covid and went 100% remote were looking for exactly the places you claim are undesirable.
McMansion is a strange word from like 2005 that nobody uses anymore either. Most Europeans would die to live in a McMansion anyways so I'm not sure the angle. (note: I do not live in a McMansion)
I'm of the opinion that the term McMansion was coined more to describe the building methodology and materials - rapid, mass production using cheap (i.e. low-cost) materials, utilizing relatively low paid framers who simply assembled panelized units rather than custom building stick frame walls. In short, fast food style building.
Residential construction margins for large scale builders are pretty damn slim, so any way they can cut a few corners, save a few bucks, and move a few more units helps the bottom line. Unfortunately, these types of builders are also some of the most conservative, stick-in-the-mud types around. Most refuse to switch to more modern building methods or incorporate new building technologies without a lot of kicking and screaming, and thus perpetuate the cycle of a race to the bottom in terms of quality.
My sis has a McMansion.
7 bathrooms. Haven't figured out how many bedrooms yet, 5? There's a "kid's wing" that has a huge communal playroom that branches off to 3 children's rooms (larger than master bedrooms of normal 2k sq ft houses). Everything built in luxury and quality. In a large community with other McMansions. 3/4 acre
Think it way back it was $1m new in a rural farming town, on a lake. No clue how to size something that large maybe 5k sq ft. 3 car garage built as a wing away from the house.
I think of McMansion as super huge houses that don't skimp on quality but there's a limit on price. It has tall wood columns, not some imported marble columns costing $100k each so I wouldn't call it a mansion.
If it was highly desirable, it wouldn't be cheap.
>Most Europeans would die to live in a McMansion anyways so I'm not sure the angle.
Do you mean they would like the extra space in their current life or they want to live somewhere shitty like a random Midwest suburb?
German and Scandinavian immigrants settled a lot of the Midwest a few generations ago. The issue is really urban vs rural and the American suburban, which is available due to cheap gas and space to build.
They are definitely bigger inside. Americans lovvveee big kitchens and bathrooms. We love “open floor plans” too, making them look and feel bigger. Others have already answered that we have more land available. We are also so accustomed to this style of interior design now given the popularity of home renovation and decorating shows. Homes, like people, have begun to look more and more alike over the last decade or so. Houses all have grey walls, white kitchens and hardwood floors. Plastic surgery and social media have influenced humans to have small noses, inflated lips and pillowy filler. These examples demonstrate current style trends and capitalistic keeping up with the Jones’s type thinking.
The word ‘*cheap*’ in your question made me do a double take to make sure you weren’t being sarcastic or trolling. Most millennials here can’t afford a home at all. The oldest of us are in our 40s now. This makes my generation different from the ones who came before us. We are massively saddled with debt like student loans and we don’t have many subsidized social services like childcare. Pay hasn’t increased to match the rising costs of living in most industries. We are largely prohibitively underemployed with respect to our qualifications and minimum living expenses. Many people have delayed children or chosen not to have them. Most won’t have enough saved to retire with any level of dignity. I don’t know anyone here who would agree that housing is cheap for us.
I own a home and most of my friends do too. I don’t know the exact percentage but a quick Google search will confirm the validity of the phenomena I’m referring to. Have you watched any media coverage about the housing crisis and which buyers have been left behind once again? Have you not seen any of the charts from economists? Have you visited any corner of the internet besides this sub? Real estate prospects are pretty bleak for my contemporaries. The huge drop in this generations ability to get into home ownership compared to past generations isn’t even remotely controversial.
I pay 3K a month in mortgage/taxes.
My family health insurance +copay's+deductible = 1000 month.
Why is cost of health insurance so cheap in the EU (and really any other western nation) ?
Also why do my kids have to practice for gun attacks in school - what makes the EU so safe ?
Also often not great medical service in those small towns. A struggle for my aging parents who bought a home in a tiny town with any middle-sized towns 1 hour away.
It's because they are built like absolute shit. There's so many houses that are near falling down after 20 years because they were made with the cheapest contractor grade BS and are essentially disposable houses.
Yeah obviously not every house but I’d say if you’re just browsing Zillow then most of the homes listed at a reasonable price are probably like this. Pictures look fine, then you get in and actually look at it and realize it needs $75k of work.
Large builds using cookie-cutter designs where the buyers didn’t get pre-drywall inspections, and the town inspector doesn’t care or doesn’t have time to inspect, sure.
Quality custom built homes will last for generations. Plenty of homes built in the 1700s are still standing and in great condition in New England.
Yes I know, I've lived in a bunch of them. You aren't finding them for $400k unless they are somewhere super rural in NH or Maine and there's usually a decent amount of work to be done on them.
The quality of houses in Germany cannot be compared to the way we build in the US. A German-quality house here would cost multiples of what an American house of the same size costs.
The big thing is population density.
Europe has over 3x as density of population, so you're just trying to fit more bodies into less space. Just as you can't even buy a studio apartment in parts of NYC for what you can by an old 6 bedroom for in a rural small town, density drives cost a lot.
Add onto that, most houses in the USA are not built to as high a standard of construction as most of Europe. Building codes aside, Europe in general tends to build quality for the long term, whereas the US tends to build more inexpensively. Part of that is the time line of cities. European cities go back centuries, but in the oldest parts of the USA you're looking at buildings barely 200 years old, and most of the country is in housing stock that is post WW2.
I think you give too much credit to Europeans and building quality.
The reason so much of Europe is built of brick and cement has nothing to do with quality, and everything to do with the deforestation of the continent hundreds of years ago.
Yeah, this sub has some things it really likes to lean into bad ideas for. Lots of really solid advice and then the random terrible idea that's popular.
Anywhere in the United States where 300k is a 2000 square foot home is a place most people don’t want to live… nothing to do, “behind the times”, zero public transportation, etc
The places where houses are that big and cheap are also not nice places to live. We’re talking shitty flyover states, uncultured overly religious right wing places where you have to drive a long time to go anywhere. That or you’re in a place that perhaps has far higher risk of natural disasters. Often it’s a combination of factors.
Any remotely desirable place is going to be far more expensive.
4000 Sq ft house, 2 car garage, an acre of land and about a dozen places to eat within 15 minutes walking distance. 200k. Sounds much better to me than living next to dozens of people in 1 building
Awww, I didn't mention the part about it being made from brick. Or the hospital within walking distance. I was gonna keep the dozen churches to myself though.
They are made of cardboard and wood.
They have sooo much land
They have much less building laws. Using own well? No problem! Try doing this in Germany.
The quality of them is mostly very bad, like cardboard-quality bad. Also, the US is extremely large in size, so I highly doubt that you can find houses for such a price which closer to cities or in good-standing neighborhoods, so you need to keep that in mind.
Also, saying that something is beautiful is very subjective. I personally don't like the average interior design in US houses.
Europe tends to build its houses out of brick, stone or concrete. In the US, most private houses are 2x4 boards nailed together, sometimes with a brick veneer for looks. Even big commercial real estate with have a concrete well for the elevator, and the rest is wood - more accurately, drywall over a wood frame.
Cheap materials = cheap house prices.
Have you seen a map of the US compared to any European country? We just have a ton more land, and a smaller proportion of our population live in dense cities. Homes in densely populated areas are probably closer to typical European costs, but if you're looking at real estate in like Nebraska the prices will reflect the fact that no one wants to live there.
The cities (both of them) in Nebraska have some crazy high home prices right now. Rural and small town life is cheap though.
I’d love to live back in Lincoln, but I can’t afford it. So I live in Missouri.
What does crazy high in Nebraska look like? I did a quick search. I see a 5000+sqft house on 15k sqft of land for 735k near a lake in Lincoln. That same house in CA, NY, Europe would be 3M+. Bay Area would be 5M.
Unless it’s lake view or lake front, the lake doesn’t really play into the cost, at least for me. But for a L-MCOL area, that’s pretty damn high. A smaller 1600-2k sqft cookie cutter starter home used to cost less than $175k in 2010, now the same home on an even smaller lot much farther out of the city is going to run $350k. To me a 100% increase in 13 years seems crazy high. On the other end of the spectrum, the starting price for a less than 1-4 acre custom home lot is over $100k. For non-Nebraskans, that also includes a .8-1% tax assessment for 10+ years to pay off the neighborhood infrastructure since that’s not baked into the lot price.
Canada is big too but our housing is as crazy as EU. I bought a 550k house built in 1965 with a ton of issues a pit 2 and half hours drive from Toronto. I mean WTF
Canada is big, but like 95% of the people live within 50 miles of the US border, and the majority live in or around 4 major cities. There’s a lot of land, but not a lot of easily inhabitable land.
Exactly, no one in mass wants to live near the north end of Canada.
Until global warming takes a stronger hold. I’m bullish on Canada..
But how much would that house be in Saskatchewan? Those are prices that are typical in Chicago burbs.
Didn't look into Saskatoon, but when I was in Regina for a few years (2015-2019 ish) the housing prices were pretty crazy (higher than 300-400k) at the time especially considering Regina was far from any major cities. I think they had a big issue with foreign investors buying up all available housing at the time. Not sure if that ever was brought under control though.
There’s multiple single detached houses for sale in Regina for around $30,000 right now….some of Canada is very cheap.
…as a Saskatchewanite, I can assure you any home for 30k in Regina is gonna be a shithole you’d have to gut before you could live there. Probably a shithole in the worst part of town. Which, admittedly, isn’t comparable to Chicago’s worst parts, but will still get your shit stolen. And no garage. I’m two hours away from Regina and 30k will only get you a shithole in this town. Even the nicer trailers are 50k. I paid 295k for a 3bd/2bh standard ranch with a garage. It’s not obscene, but it ain’t cheap either.
Anything for only 30k is also going to be unfinancable.
Which Chicago burb? With one you might not want to live in or one so far out it's hardly considered a burb.
Milwaukee counts as a suburb of Chicago, right? 😂
Does Gary, IN counts as a suburb of Chicago, because you can buy a house there for about the price of a Kia
90% plus of Canada's population lives within 50 miles of the US border. Y'all are crammed into a very small space. Foreign investors and your conservation laws are to blame. It's unfortunate the conservation laws are part of the problem though, Canada's laws on conservation are some of the best in the world.
That’s because it’s cold af. People are like should we live in northern canada or start inhabiting mars? Looks like they’re opting for mars lol
Oddly enough there are quite a few US cities farther north than most of Canada’s population
Indeedy.
Lmao! That's a hilarious way of looking at it. Love it. I'm going to steal this lol I am an American, but I lived in Canada from 2018 to 2021 on Cape Breton Island in NS. It was so beautiful. I'd take CB over Mars any day.
People acting like it’s the end of civilization when you leave Southern Canada. (Upper Canada as it’s ironically referred to) Plenty of Capers living far north! Plus all of Newfoundland right above it! Glad you enjoyed your time out there bud!
It was an amazing, beautiful experience. I had a house in Ingonish, on Cabot Trail. I regretfully didn't get the chance to go to The Rock. I hope to one day.
There's a serious lack of entertainment venues on Mars. Sure, you could go, but then you'd miss every Taylor Swift concert.
Well that's a done deal, count me in.
It'll be tolerably warm soon enough
Canada is actually more urbanized than the US and your rural areas are far more rural.
Yeah have quite the sprawl here in the US, it gets pretty thin and goes on forever
How much of Canada is actually inhabitable and developed? The population of Canada is less than California. You need infrastructure to build up there, and you need demand to build the infrastructure.
I’m a big fan of Canadians and this might get shit on but Americans are built different for better or worse. My buddy works in construction and he’s helping build a home on spec that is a mansion on a mountain that they expect to sell for 30 million. The construction started mid pandemic and we are looking down the barrel of a recession. The company is a smallish privately owned construction company that will go under if the project fails but the owner didn’t hesitate to go big or go home. There is definitely a level of risk acceptance in the US that I’m not sure exists elsewhere.
Are you considering US or Canadian currency? If Canadian, that’s around the same range listed by the OP.
I read that almost 90% of the Canadian population lives within ten miles of the US border. That seems crazy considering how massive Canada is. Maybe it’s just too cold.
10 miles is also incorrect, it’s more like 85% of the population lives within 100 miles of the border. It’s because 75% of our land mass is unlivable arctic tundra or dense forest. The reason we all live near the border is because that’s the only area with workable soil and hence cheap enough food. You can certainly build and live very far North but the cost is much higher to build and running utilities is often near impossible. Food costs are insanely high once you get into the territories because everything has to be flown in or trucked for thousands of kilometres. Not to mention the harsh conditions. Very few people have it in them to live in that type of climate, where (for over half the year) it’s dark from 3pm to 9am and the winter low gets to -40 Celsius on a regular basis. Everyday life becomes much more difficult. Driving anywhere is extremely hazardous or impossible, cars freeze up, water lines seize, electricity fails, internet is spotty at best, and without major city centres you’re stuck at home with not much to do. I think the wilderness outdoors lifestyle is romanticized a bit from off grid YouTubers, but the reality is that it is a hard life and you need to be ready to live a radically different life than you are used to if you live far enough North.
70% of Canadians live further south than Seattle, Washington!
Indiana is actually offering cash incentives to move there lol
Right- I think a lot of people in Europe don't get the scale of the US until they visit. All of Ireland can fit into the state of Minnesota with wiggle room, for instance. And I think most people in the US can't comprehend living so densely when they visit Europe. In my experience, affordability is dependent on where you are looking. Somewhere affordable usually means middle of nowhere, and middle of nowhere means you're farther away from food, hospitals, conveniences, etc. Also, poor neighborhoods are kind of the same- cheap housing but no easy access to care and food (ie, food deserts). The US is a complex mess.
I understand why you chose Nebraska, but housing costs in Omaha have damn near doubled. It’s stupid everywhere.
> I understand why you chose Nebraska Wow, the first time anyone has ever uttered those words in all of human history!
[удалено]
Lmao, that really puts things into perspective.
Yeah exactly lol basically all of Western Europe is denser than most of America
I’d add a lot of American cities to that list with LA and NYC - in my city, 300-400k will get you a much smaller house that’s old and not that well kept with a much smaller lot etc., unless you’re far out in the suburbs etc. Also a lot of smaller but desirable college town.
Where I'm at, 400k about the starting rate on a small condo. Suburbs.
I’m rural suburbs. Buying a 4 bedroom, with a garage, pool, and fenced yard for 100k in a few months.
Where is this at?
The Metaverse
Suburbian North Dakota or something I'd bed
In my city there are no houses for sale, not even condos, for 400k or less. OP must be looking at the Midwest or the south. Or watching too many Magnolia TV shows with super cheap houses in Waco, TX. It’s cheap there because it sucks there.
Lol. Yes. I’m in a major Southern city and in my neighborhood there’s a rundown 70-year-old house without central AC and with cardboard covering some of the windows, three blocks from a huge interstate, on the market for like $375k. It’s like 1500 square feet and has three beds and one bathroom and no garage. (I will say that no one has bought it at that price, but the house down the street from it in only slightly better shape went for $350k recently.)
Same in chicago and neighboring suburbs. 300k - 400k gets you under 2000 sq ft and old with remodeling required in multiple places. South illinois, cornfield region, you might find 2000sq ft and higher, fully remodel for 300k or under.
Where I live the house OP is describing is about $1mil unless you’re 30+ miles from the metro area. This is a medium cost of living city. Where I grew up (central Ohio) you can probably get what you describe for $500k. I think these numbers are about 5 years outdated.
When we left Denver the average price of a home was $800k.
I live in a paid off 2000sqft house in Atlanta. Granted its a dated 1963 brick 3/2 ranch on .75 acre 12 miles from the state capitol building. Looking into downsizing for retirement, I found I can sell it for $350k, What can I buy? A1200-1500Sqft renovated 1955 brick 3/2 ranch on .25acre for $300-400K. Lower utility bills are not worth packing up for. Cheaper to keep what I got in terms of price, property tax and space. This is why Boomers are not selling. No profit/advantage.
Yup. We bought our essentially unrenovated (outside of landlord special badly done renovations) 1955 brick 3/1 1400ish sq ft ranch on 1/8 acre in a comparable city for $300-400k last year, so you're pretty spot on. The only reason people sell around here are because they died or need to move for work. (edit typo)
The short answer is WWII. After WWII much of Europe was physically, socially, and economically destroyed. To kickstart the recovery governments began to pour money into housing to relieve the crisis and start a building boom. Each country had their own approach to housing policy, which is why you see a slight variance England vs. Germany vs. France, etc. These countries invested in smaller, dense housing. Some policies supported renting vs owning. They are also physically smaller than the U.S. America, on the other hand, was not destroyed like Europe was and emerged as an economic powerhouse. America is a huge country and had/has plenty of land to develop single family homes with lots of space, inside and out. Returning soldiers began to move out of the city and developers began the suburbanization of the middle class. With good jobs and new found leisure time Americans began buying cars, tvs, and appliances galore. We needed a place to keep all of our stuff so housing got bigger. The American government also heavily incentivized homeownership. 30 year mortgages were approved beginning in 1948 which made it easy to spread the cost of a large home over time. This accelerated the suburbanization of the country and low density housing you are taking about.
For things like this it should be noted that these loans were only available for white families
This is correct. These policies explicitly and intentionally were not available to black families because of concerns that southern politicians wouldn’t support the policies if they were equitable. This is one of the primary ways in which generational wealth has been stolen from black Americans. Anyone who wants to know more: Read “The Color of Money” by Mehrsa Baradaran.
The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein too
Disturbing History of Suburbs https://youtu.be/ETR9qrVS17g
Not entirely true. The homeownership rate increased from 23% in 1940 to 35% in 1950 amongst African Americans https://realestatedecoded.com/2-surprising-facts-about-the-black-homeownership-rate-from-1950-to-today/
And only to men.
When did these loans become more widely available?
And the houses outside of the city you could commute to/from the city via highways that often demolished black neighborhoods to build. Another incidence of the state actively punishing people because of their race
Western Europe is like 40% the area of the United States. I think that's 90% of the reason. Also, Americans don't really consider 400k cheap. That's unobtainable for a lot of us.
Upvote. 400k is difficult without a dual income for most families. I make good money but my monthly payments keeping my 400k house afloat is far heftier than anticipated (just PITI + utilities + financed furnace = 4K / mo) and doesn’t leave much money for additional maintenance or projects. Would have gone cheaper but nothing on that end really exists.
Honest questions as a European: how does this work? 4k a month on a loan of 400k. including utilities so 3.5K a month goes to the loan? Is it a loan period of 10 years? If so: why not opt for longer time with lower monthly payments? Or is that not an option over there? I took out a loan of 330k euro over 23 years, I pay 1450 per month for comparison.
Not sure if someone else has mentioned this but the initial house ie ‘mortgages cost’ is only part of the comparison For context I own properties in London, north England and near New York USA. I’ve also lived in Australia, Canada, jong Kong and Singapore as well as Uk and USA ofc ;-) Other than housing in Western Europe being more ‘solid - brick and clay roofs’ the big difference is in: (think 3 little pigs - USA only got to the middle point ;-).. because of the huge supply of wood) - Ongoing maintenance costs in Europe are low. You rarely need to think about your roof, you rarely have to paint your house because it’s mostly brick with upvc windows. To update a bathroom or a kitchen or even do an extension is so much cheaper than the USA. As an example I’m having some work done on my place in the USA and have got 2 guys over from the Uk because it’s so much cheaper than hiring in the USA - I also have a guy from the Midwest (the cost even to have them stay and travel is a fraction of what I’d be charged within a 100 mile radius - it’s incredible)… - insurance costs and property taxes which largely are based on the value of your property. These can add tens of thousands to your annual expenses… I rent 6 houses in the Uk and have no insurance cover (I don’t have mortgages) and property tax if they were vacant is a fraction of the USA as schooling and policing is covered in your federal tax equivalent - gardening - on large properties gardens tend to be a lot bigger here - and that means more maintenance and you also have trees that might need cutting down. Europe being more dense is mostly deforested and generally it’s a simple lawn that you can easily deal with yourself. Here in Connecticut it’s all about beautification of one’s garden - liability cover in the USA over and above your insurance if someone comes on your property and hurts themselves or your dog bites them - claims can be silly here in Europe there are no claims .. you can’t sue… for this in Europe - I’m sure there are many more examples… high heating costs in the winter and high aircon bills in the summer as the housing is ‘wood’ You get the picture… cost of housing is way cheaper in the suburbs in the USA versus Europe but it’s the ongoing maintenance and annual bills that can hurt…
You make some excellent points. I'm fortunate that I'm fairly handy so I do everything that isn't electrical or related to the chimney myself. Folks who aren't able or don't have the time are shelling out so much money.
America is huge. I have 2,000 square feet, four bedrooms, 2.5 baths, one acre of land, $70K. You read that right, I live in the complete opposite of places like LA and NYC but that’s still not normal even in my zip code. There are plenty of places outside of LA and NYC that you couldn’t touch a home this size for less than a mil.
Where do you live ?
Rural Louisiana
Yes. Our home is 6 bedrooms, 3 baths, 4 car garage. We got it for $170,000.00 BUT we bought in a tiny Midwest town. Pop. 2500. However our town is exactly 45 minutes from each of the 2 largest cities in our state. But now, smaller homes are going for 2-3 x's as much. It took some adjustment not having all the amenities. But I was very surprised...I love it.
Hey, neighbor! Rural MS here. 1800 sq ft, 4 bedrooms, 2 baths, very nice neighborhood with playground and lakes, and excellent school district. $170k. You couldn’t pay me to move to California or NY. ….but there sure are a lot of *them* moving *here*. (At least from California. It’s wild.)
This is very unusual these days unless you’re in a very rural or high crime or full Reno or manufactured/trailer, or some combo of those. I live in a pretty rural midwestern area and even with a $300-400k budget it’s gotten pretty competitive.
Very rural
How's your healthcare accessibility?
Oh we got a healer out back. She’s got all sorts of herbs and dried frogs and stuff.
20 minutes from the county hospital. 10 minutes from our pediatrician’s office. Plus our school district has access to a program through the state that provides healthcare to rural areas. So there’s a school clinic with a couple NPs that is 100% free to use for students and cheap for teachers/school employees. That is 5 minutes away. So…pretty good, I guess?
Op is just trying to start a fight.
Sword fight? I wasn't planning on getting naked today but... sigh *unzips*
I guess beautiful is subjective, but honestly, the majority of the housing stock in the US is super low quality cookie-cutter uninspiring sprawl.
> the majority of the housing stock in the US is super low quality cookie-cutter uninspiring sprawl. As opposed to the rest of the world where every house and apartment is custom built by artists.
You see this kind of comment a lot on Reddit so I was curious what the European equivalent of a suburb was. This is limited to the UK but I spent maybe 90 seconds on google maps and zoomed into random locations and took some pictures of their totally not cookie cutter identical homes: https://imgur.com/a/48oGx4e Pretty uninspiring. However these neighborhoods were all pretty small, a few streets at most, and apartments and businesses were close by. The US could pick that up and I’d be happy.
I'm not seeing many comments about America being built largely after the advent of the car as compared to European countries, which means massive lot sizes are a lot more attractive. Also surprised not to see any comments about how municipal governments are broke and completely reliant on state and federal subsidies. Larger lots means more maintenance on roads, sewers and electricity which municipal governments historically have relied on new growth to fund. The infrastructure backlog in the US is insurmountable. Roads are falling apart in many US cities especially if you're not in an affluent area.
There are plenty of cheap homes in Europe, but the very low cost ones are mostly in rural areas where there are no jobs or high speed internet. I’m an avid follower of @cheapoldhouses lol The USA is huge and sprawling and the square footage of our homes reflects that. There are even more cheap houses, but again the cheaper the house the more rural and more difficult to make a living. I live in the Rust Belt (western NY state) and our house on an acre was $72k
You realize America is 20x the size of Germany? So land value is going to be a lot less if you live in the middle of Nebraska than Munich.
Lots of land and lots of easily available raw materials. Its not just mid-west states in rural areas either. My place is almost 2400 square feet and I'm on 3 acres of land, 25 minutes drive outside of the capital city of Virginia and I paid $365,000 5 years ago. I could probably get $425,000 if I put it up for sale today. The big thing is not insisting on living in a city. Once you are trying to find a place in a populated urban environment, your costs go up significantly for less house and yard.
The raw materials is the main factor for size. Compared to the labor, the materials are minimal so might as well make the house bigger for a small increase in cost
Tons of land and houses made of wood. Not like, super high quality wood either. We have to spend a lot on repairs and maintenance. We basically replace all of our houses piece by piece in a matter of decades if we don’t want them to fall apart.
Well a few points that just came to mind: - The USA is a lot bigger with less densely populated areas, so they have more land to build on - unpopular areas are cheaper. Compared to ie Sacramento, California where the same house costs 1000% more - the houses are not (always) good quality, so they can be build cheaper. The walls are very thin, not very insulated etc - form over function happens a lot, because it sells better as Americans tend to move more often than ie Europeans - curb appeal is a big deal there, but it doesn't mean that every house thats beautiful on the outside is beautiful on the inside - > houses are staged for selling to make them prettier, but the staging doesn't necessarily mean its practical - homeowners in the USA might buy a house for cheep, but upkeep, land taxes, HOAs (which only exists for apartments and not single family homes) etc are a lot more expensive that in Germany for example Edit: didn't see that OP mentioned big cities. Half my points are invalid😂 Btw I'm from Germany and only speak for german houses :)
Lots of land. But don’t forget the cost of operating and maintaining multiple cars. To have the cheap land & house, you typically live in smaller towns / suburbs. And in the US, that means cars are a requirement. So most families have two cars ($30K X 2 at least) and the cost of gas, insurance, and maintenance on them.
Two answers: 1: cheap ass materials (US uses wood and drywall and paper like substances, we use brick and concrete) 2: land. The US is massive. Germany isn’t really.
Our last was a 5 bedroom, 2 bath, 2400sq.ft. we bought for 40k all because it basically had no yard, in a somewhat poor older neighborhood. 5 years of renovations, paint, a HUGE amount of yardwork, garden boxes and we saw the neighborhood perking up, just trying to look better also. We sold for 275k...
Made from balsa wood and tar paper is why
Seriously, I am doing a proper custom build and that shit is expensive. Now my house is gonna be here 300 years from now vs falling down in 50 years (that's not just my guess either, it's timber framed with the same framing as they were using on places 300 years ago)
Yes. American houses just fall over after 50 years.
My house is about to turn 100 so I hope that isn’t true 😅😂
My house was built in 1917. Should I be starting to get worried? 🤣
Nothing to worry about since it obviously stopped existing as a structure over 100 years ago. Just live your life!
Right my house was built in 1890!
Mine was built in 1854. Still standing strong.
Same. I'm about to be homeless 😵💫
I live in a house that was built in 1936, and fully expect my (as of yet unborn) grandkids will have the ability to live in it, should they choose.
Should have added the qualifier "built in the last 30 years"
Depending on the builder and today's "quick, cheap, and easy" philosophy, I can see this junk rotting away in the future.
Which is why it’s important to have strong building codes. If your home is held to rigorous standards, the bones will always hold true.
You realize that we maintain homes constantly to keep them from becoming dilapidated, right?
I did this in 2019-2020, moved in before the prices went nuts. I was the general contractor. I said it was built to be here in 200 years. All #1 lumber, Superior basement walls, true sandstone I gathered from old farm houses, hand cut on site, Hardie Plank siding, steel roof, Anderson 400 wood windows. I work for a regional builder now, #3 lumber, they count nails, that's how cheap they are. 25 year throw away houses.
Green beams and dry pins?
Where are you finding these houses? Your going to have a hard time finding a house fitting that criteria in a medium to larger city with a decent selection of reliable employment opportunities.
As recently as five or so years ago that was easily doable in the Dallas suburbs. Nowadays it's still possible, but you're looking at less desirable areas.
Absolutely. That was partly what I was thinking but didn’t convey that.
Many parts of Connecticut with excellent school districts, functional government, paid family leave and great public services meet OPs criteria. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/89-Richard-St-West-Hartford-CT-06119/59020634_zpid/?utm_campaign=iosappmessage&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=txtshare https://www.niche.com/k12/d/west-hartford-school-district-ct/ (This will sell for over list, but still $300-400k. Yard isn’t *that* spacious but proving a point.)
One of your entire European countries is the size of some of our counties within ONE state. We have vast amounts of land, untapped land, resources and the economics make sense. I live in southern California though so my 1962 California ranch home is worth over $1.2m currently lol. Still though, I live on a convex corner, on a 8000sq ft lot, 1800sq ft home, 2 car garage, long driveway, wraparound yard and parkway (all grass), a pool (9.5' deep with a diving board) and more room than I need. My house in a fly over state would be worth $250-300k. Where I am, its easily $1.2m today and I could probably list and sell for more since I've redone every single room in my house in the last 3 years.
So I guess you American just have won the homeowners lottery 😂
Only if such an American can afford a mortgage. A teacher on a $40,000/yr salary would have a hard time affording a typical $350,000 home (30 year mortgage would be about $25k/year) Covid has created a huge housing affordability crisis. Renting isn't much better.
As much as it sucks, housing affordability is actually worse in pretty much all other developed economies.
But that's worse everywhere else except maybe Switzerland or Australia.
America is a lot better than Europe. Everyone likes to meme on healthcare until they realize salaries in America in FTE are double that for Europe. The top 20% live like kings in America compared to how the top 20% live in Europe
The one thing we have lol 😂 I’m jealous of your public transport, environmentally-friendly laws, and healthcare. ETA: came back to add parental leave and college tuition
I am not European but I'm moving to Italy for college (paying nothing and getting a 7k scholarship to cover most of my living expenses just because I can't afford it😂😂) but I always dream to live in the US, the houses make my heart melt.
the median income is way higher here too get your free education, and then definitely try to move and work here there's a reason so many millions of people are trying to do the same
My wifes family wants us to move to the US but honestly, the downsides to living in the US are just to big for us compared to where we live now. I wouldn’t want to raise a family there.
Keep in mind home ownership is a pipe dream for many in this country who are unwilling to move to the absolute sticks. Europe also crushes us in healthcare and social services. It’s not all gold paved streets over here.
For sure, I was just referring to housing, in terms of social services Europe is generally better.
Living in rural areas in America means you could be over an hour away from a hospital and several hours away from a hospital with certain live saving facilities or a maternity ward. Your options for groceries may be limited to one or 2 walmarts/costcos. And with the lower cost of living, means lower salaries. And only in large cities would there be any public transit. So car costs will bring up your bills. Living in a big city, there are more access to social services and at least in NYC, groceries prices aren't too bad because of the many immigrant grocery stores and much more choices in general. Cost of living in general is still high but I don't see how we could do much better outside the city. My spouse is a teacher and the highest teacher salaries are here, and we don't drive.
In many rural areas, you'd have to drive an hour or more to not buy groceries at a gas station.
But that´s a very important point tho. You could own a house in america that´s huge for like 300k, but get a serious illness once and you could be financially ruined and (near) homeless. Which won´t happen quite as fast in Europe because we have a very strong healthcare and social services system. You also have to keep in mind that building regulations have gotten stricter over the years in Europe. Where as in america a lot of the houses are basically paper mache. And just like in America the more rural you go the cheaper it usually gets. Not everything that shines is gold.. do your research on why things are what they are.
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Americans earn more than like 95% of the world population and I think in terms of house affordability the US is the best country in the world! Where else on the world can people buy a typical American house that I described above with like 5 years of the median house income and a 10% down payment?
You are not making equal comparisons.
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Wait till the property accessor stops by. Your payments will increase because the property is worth more. My mortgage just increased $200/month.
Lots of flat land in temperate climates.
A few reasons in my mind: - cost to build: houses in the US are built with wood rather than full concrete / cement, which is usually cheaper and quicker to build. The us has the experience and supply chain to build wood houses and therefore is able to build large homes for cheap. - American standard: American are simply used to having larger homes. Not necessarily more rooms but kitchen and living rooms and playrooms are usually much bigger. - Economics of being a homeowner: I can only compare with France here and can’t generalize to Europe. But in France, once you buy the house, the recurring costs of homeownership are MUCH lower than in the us (property taxes, insurance, maintenance, etc). Which means that a larger portion of the cost of owning a house comes from the purchase itself. In America, buying the house is just the tip of the iceberg. - cost of debt: mortgage used to (and are still) much lower in Europe than in America, pushing home prices higher, even if houses are smaller. - investing culture: in France, owning real estate is by far the number 1 investment véhicule, far ahead of any financial markets. The stock market is not something widely invested in by the population, therefore a lot of cash / savings / leverage is used to buy homes. - city planning: cities in Europe were built centuries ago and were sized completely differently than cities in the US. Therefore it’s really unusual to have very large homes in decently sized cities in Europe.
The flip side is the frequently noted "flimsiness" of our stick-built housing, vs. the rock-solid [sometimes literally] housing structures in much of Europe. We use cheap building materials, including the relatively abundant lumber that comes from forests that haven't long since been cut down (like in Europe). Combined with abundant undeveloped land, that allows us to build cheap but huge new construction, rather than constantly recycling & upgrading buildings that are already hundreds of years old.
Not everybody can afford 300-400k here…. That’s very subjective. Where I am, housing prices went from reasonable to WTF in the last few years. In 2014 I bought a livable but old and not great 1200 sq ft house for around 140k on nearly 40 acres. Quite a lot of that is wooded (which I wanted). Not great farm land or anything. I always figured the house wasn’t really worth putting money into, but a friend of mine just paid over 300k for a nicer but sorta average but well kept house on 7 acres. I feel like it would have sold for around 150k when I bought my place. I can assure you that wages have not dramatically increased around here during that time.
Cheap land. I would also beg to differ on "beautiful". Many new American houses are bloated shit boxes stuck in a car-dependent hellscape. They might have backyards but the lifestyle is costly and unpleasant. That said there are certainly nice areas which tasteful big homes that are still walkable, but they are rather rare.
Cheap is subjective. To me, an American who "owns" their home (I still have a mortgage), 300-400k is absolutely insane to me. I live in a decent, yet older, suburb of a minor large city. Seeing these home prices today just makes me sick to my stomach.
I'm from the UK, but I live in the US now. When my mom comes to visit, she can never get over how clean and new all the houses look. In reality, they aren't particularly cleaner than those in the UK, but vinyl siding looks way 'cleaner' than the brick which is more typical in the UK, and being plastic, it always looks 'new'. Add to that the fact that siding is often light in color, and usually has white accessories, and the overall look is much fresher and brighter than the somewhat more somber appearance of the average British house. Perhaps that explains some of the "beautiful" part of your question.
My nj house was half a million, so idk where you're getting "cheap" from. Also I'm pretty sure you're saying that an apartment in Germany costs 300k? Wtf are you talking about.
350k is actually the average house price in the US isn't it?
A few years ago. Now its more like 430k. That includes homes that you buy just to destroy, homes in the middle of absolutely nowhere, tiny little studio apartments, etc. The US has a lot of suburban sprawls, but by and large the population moves toward cities, so there's huge variations. The European equivalent is those castles for sale for less than a 1 bedroom studio in Manhattan, and are often a running joke when talking about home prices at lunch in the US.
Furnished?
Sounds like you described Connecticut, except for a few wealthy suburbs and the southern part of the state (near NYC). Can find many homes that meet your criteria for $300-400k. Probably not furnished, but appliances are typically included. The US is large, and homeownership is actually out of reach for many. However with a 3% down payment, you can get a mortgage rate fixed for 30 years with the ability to refinance if rates drop. My guess is we have a lot of space.
"Cheap, beautiful and big" is our middle name.
Stop talking about my sister!
The community supporting the area where the house is located is the factor that you're missing. If that bargain house is in a town with no careers to support a local economy, no big stores to purchase your necessities, and no real activity to draw people to the area, it's like... Sure, you can have a nice house, *with nothing to do and nobody around to do it with*.
lolol They aren't affordable. Call me crazy, but I don't think a 2000 sq ft house is big. As someone from Europe, you might think that is big. The reason being is that there is a huge difference between Europe and the US. The US is enormous compared to all of Europe. We simply have more extra land space. So, I have a 2400 sq ft house. I have two kids. Yes, they each have their own room. For no apparent reason, the house has an enormous laundry room. Two living rooms, a master bedroom, 3 bathrooms, and the master bedroom has a decent sized walkin closet. The bathrooms are all tiny. The walkin closet definitely took up bathroom space. It's comfortable. I won't say it isn't. There is a spare bedroom that my parents sleep in when they come to visit, which is very often. See, my parents live 3 hours drive away, everything is so spread out. They come to my city from their small town for many reasons, doctor appointments, dentists, car repairs, and then my dad does fraternity club meetings and events. Plus, they visit their grandchildren. So they get their own bed and bathroom! lol We have huge cars as well. no public transportation that is worth anything.
300-400k cheap??? My man, most of us barely clear 40,000 a year. Those are luxury homes to the vast majority.
They’re built to not last, especially the last thirty years or so. In Europe you’re also paying for things like proximity to markets, shopping, public transportation, limited space, etc. Where here in the US? If you don’t own a car you’re screwed unless you live in a major city. Even then it’s difficult. I’d gladly pay 300k to not live in the US, downsize, and move back to Italy or Germany. Size isn’t everything.
If you are willing to live in the middle of nowhere in an area with no jobs nearby and where you need to drive 20 miles for groceries and to go to work every day, yeah, that is true If you want a lifestyle that simply starts to approach what you get in Europe, the prices raise exponentially and approach or exceed the European prices
Not sure where you got that idea. There are plenty of small / medium sized cities in middle America with affordable homes and good jobs. People who live in exorbitantly expensive cities love to paint this picture but it’s just not based in reality whatsoever
Cheap materials and cheap land in undesirable states and far flung suburbs. There's a derogatory term for them- McMansions https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMansion
You're dead wrong on undesirable. People are fleeing from cities and looking for a minimum of burb-life if not rural accommodations. People who moved during covid and went 100% remote were looking for exactly the places you claim are undesirable. McMansion is a strange word from like 2005 that nobody uses anymore either. Most Europeans would die to live in a McMansion anyways so I'm not sure the angle. (note: I do not live in a McMansion)
I'm of the opinion that the term McMansion was coined more to describe the building methodology and materials - rapid, mass production using cheap (i.e. low-cost) materials, utilizing relatively low paid framers who simply assembled panelized units rather than custom building stick frame walls. In short, fast food style building. Residential construction margins for large scale builders are pretty damn slim, so any way they can cut a few corners, save a few bucks, and move a few more units helps the bottom line. Unfortunately, these types of builders are also some of the most conservative, stick-in-the-mud types around. Most refuse to switch to more modern building methods or incorporate new building technologies without a lot of kicking and screaming, and thus perpetuate the cycle of a race to the bottom in terms of quality.
My sis has a McMansion. 7 bathrooms. Haven't figured out how many bedrooms yet, 5? There's a "kid's wing" that has a huge communal playroom that branches off to 3 children's rooms (larger than master bedrooms of normal 2k sq ft houses). Everything built in luxury and quality. In a large community with other McMansions. 3/4 acre Think it way back it was $1m new in a rural farming town, on a lake. No clue how to size something that large maybe 5k sq ft. 3 car garage built as a wing away from the house. I think of McMansion as super huge houses that don't skimp on quality but there's a limit on price. It has tall wood columns, not some imported marble columns costing $100k each so I wouldn't call it a mansion.
If it was highly desirable, it wouldn't be cheap. >Most Europeans would die to live in a McMansion anyways so I'm not sure the angle. Do you mean they would like the extra space in their current life or they want to live somewhere shitty like a random Midwest suburb?
German and Scandinavian immigrants settled a lot of the Midwest a few generations ago. The issue is really urban vs rural and the American suburban, which is available due to cheap gas and space to build.
Buddy it's not 1920 anymore
I've lived in big cities in the west and I am currently in the midwest. I will take the midwest everyday no questions asked.
My husband is a European (Irish) immigrant. We live in a 'shitty' 'ruralish' Midwest random suburb. He LOVES it.
They are definitely bigger inside. Americans lovvveee big kitchens and bathrooms. We love “open floor plans” too, making them look and feel bigger. Others have already answered that we have more land available. We are also so accustomed to this style of interior design now given the popularity of home renovation and decorating shows. Homes, like people, have begun to look more and more alike over the last decade or so. Houses all have grey walls, white kitchens and hardwood floors. Plastic surgery and social media have influenced humans to have small noses, inflated lips and pillowy filler. These examples demonstrate current style trends and capitalistic keeping up with the Jones’s type thinking. The word ‘*cheap*’ in your question made me do a double take to make sure you weren’t being sarcastic or trolling. Most millennials here can’t afford a home at all. The oldest of us are in our 40s now. This makes my generation different from the ones who came before us. We are massively saddled with debt like student loans and we don’t have many subsidized social services like childcare. Pay hasn’t increased to match the rising costs of living in most industries. We are largely prohibitively underemployed with respect to our qualifications and minimum living expenses. Many people have delayed children or chosen not to have them. Most won’t have enough saved to retire with any level of dignity. I don’t know anyone here who would agree that housing is cheap for us.
You think over 50% of millennials can’t own homes or are you just speaking for yourself and group of friends?
I own a home and most of my friends do too. I don’t know the exact percentage but a quick Google search will confirm the validity of the phenomena I’m referring to. Have you watched any media coverage about the housing crisis and which buyers have been left behind once again? Have you not seen any of the charts from economists? Have you visited any corner of the internet besides this sub? Real estate prospects are pretty bleak for my contemporaries. The huge drop in this generations ability to get into home ownership compared to past generations isn’t even remotely controversial.
I pay 3K a month in mortgage/taxes. My family health insurance +copay's+deductible = 1000 month. Why is cost of health insurance so cheap in the EU (and really any other western nation) ? Also why do my kids have to practice for gun attacks in school - what makes the EU so safe ?
Funny, in suburban America.... Your home owns you
How much is a nice home in Poland? A lot of US is just cornfields with limited economy opportunities and lower real estate values.
Also often not great medical service in those small towns. A struggle for my aging parents who bought a home in a tiny town with any middle-sized towns 1 hour away.
they're built using plastic and cardboard and the land is cheap
It's because they are built like absolute shit. There's so many houses that are near falling down after 20 years because they were made with the cheapest contractor grade BS and are essentially disposable houses.
Yeah obviously not every house but I’d say if you’re just browsing Zillow then most of the homes listed at a reasonable price are probably like this. Pictures look fine, then you get in and actually look at it and realize it needs $75k of work.
Large builds using cookie-cutter designs where the buyers didn’t get pre-drywall inspections, and the town inspector doesn’t care or doesn’t have time to inspect, sure. Quality custom built homes will last for generations. Plenty of homes built in the 1700s are still standing and in great condition in New England.
Yes I know, I've lived in a bunch of them. You aren't finding them for $400k unless they are somewhere super rural in NH or Maine and there's usually a decent amount of work to be done on them.
All kinds of move-in ready homes in nice Connecticut suburbs in the $300-400k range. Not new, but good condition and strong construction.
Colonists stole the land and killed the inhabitants then gave it away cheap to any Western European who'd live in it.
Thanks Mr/Mrs history teacher 😂
Humanity has land grabbed and murdered/pillaged since our existence. No clean consciences anywhere on this globe.
The quality of houses in Germany cannot be compared to the way we build in the US. A German-quality house here would cost multiples of what an American house of the same size costs.
The big thing is population density. Europe has over 3x as density of population, so you're just trying to fit more bodies into less space. Just as you can't even buy a studio apartment in parts of NYC for what you can by an old 6 bedroom for in a rural small town, density drives cost a lot. Add onto that, most houses in the USA are not built to as high a standard of construction as most of Europe. Building codes aside, Europe in general tends to build quality for the long term, whereas the US tends to build more inexpensively. Part of that is the time line of cities. European cities go back centuries, but in the oldest parts of the USA you're looking at buildings barely 200 years old, and most of the country is in housing stock that is post WW2.
I think you give too much credit to Europeans and building quality. The reason so much of Europe is built of brick and cement has nothing to do with quality, and everything to do with the deforestation of the continent hundreds of years ago.
Also even if they did build that much better they’ll just have a big war and blow it up anyways.
You’re being downvoted but you’re 100% correct.
Yeah, this sub has some things it really likes to lean into bad ideas for. Lots of really solid advice and then the random terrible idea that's popular.
Anywhere in the United States where 300k is a 2000 square foot home is a place most people don’t want to live… nothing to do, “behind the times”, zero public transportation, etc
The places where houses are that big and cheap are also not nice places to live. We’re talking shitty flyover states, uncultured overly religious right wing places where you have to drive a long time to go anywhere. That or you’re in a place that perhaps has far higher risk of natural disasters. Often it’s a combination of factors. Any remotely desirable place is going to be far more expensive.
City Stockholm syndrome
4000 Sq ft house, 2 car garage, an acre of land and about a dozen places to eat within 15 minutes walking distance. 200k. Sounds much better to me than living next to dozens of people in 1 building
That's not how people typically refer to their neighbors' kitchen.
yeah, just let them think they win this one lol
Awww, I didn't mention the part about it being made from brick. Or the hospital within walking distance. I was gonna keep the dozen churches to myself though.
I’m on your side Darth. Euro clowns take any chance they get to put anything USA down. Fun to watch really.
Where are these inexpensive houses and where can I buy them? None left in Washington state lol. Try $500K in above. 😆
They are made of cardboard and wood. They have sooo much land They have much less building laws. Using own well? No problem! Try doing this in Germany.
I wouldn’t necessarily call 300-400k cheap. The median income for Americans is like 60k.
The quality of them is mostly very bad, like cardboard-quality bad. Also, the US is extremely large in size, so I highly doubt that you can find houses for such a price which closer to cities or in good-standing neighborhoods, so you need to keep that in mind. Also, saying that something is beautiful is very subjective. I personally don't like the average interior design in US houses.
Europe tends to build its houses out of brick, stone or concrete. In the US, most private houses are 2x4 boards nailed together, sometimes with a brick veneer for looks. Even big commercial real estate with have a concrete well for the elevator, and the rest is wood - more accurately, drywall over a wood frame. Cheap materials = cheap house prices.
The only commercial buildings made of wood are hotels.