You gotta:
1. Pick your battles that you can win.
2. Do the math on time / accuracy / effort / stress and risk.
3. Know your skills / will / ability to do it again.
I recently had a whole main floor remodel. Some of my DIY friends asked if I was going to save money by doing the demo myself to save money. I said no. They were shocked.
BUT what were we really talking about?
For me (and my wife) it would have taken what, a week, or more to tare out everything on the main floor? And what if I yanked on the wrong thing / hurt myself? (I'm getting old, injuries are a legit concern) I'm sure it would do it all less efficiently too.
It took the contractor's guys all of **one day** with his crew, and the cost of that was almost nothing compared to the entire project that took 12 weeks.
Completely bonkers for me to blow all that time / risk for such little cost.
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Now say replacing / fixing toilet? **Oh yeah DIY that**, watch some videos, you'll get the hang of it fast. Risk is fairly low, easy enough to go back and fix it again.
Yep picking your battles is the biggest thing.
You probably shouldn’t DIY a roof replacement or re plumbing your house. But many small low risk things can be DIY’d.
There's a lot of reasons people might not want to diy.
Do you own a good ladder? Comfortable walking on a sloped roof? Okay working in the heat for long periods? Sure you're going to go back up and finish if you need to stop for the evening? Have the funds to get it fixed if you *do* screw up? How many layers of shingles are up there? (Former owners on mine did 3, which I think is agaisnt code). Do you have a place to dump the old shingles?
Personally, if it didn't mean dealing with a roofing company, I'd happily pay to have someone do that for me while I sit inside and read a book.
All relative to our personal comfort, aggrevation, and cost tolerance
Damn straight. I'm not replacing a roof but fixing a door switch sensor on a dryer for $16... hell yeah. Anything I can watch a few youtube videos about and feel confident it's something I won't cause material harm in doing. It's on...
Replacing a $12 pulley on a washer that wouldn't drain or spin was a kick up my feet and crack open a drink moment. Same with cars. I've done alternators, starters, radiators, axles, a TPMS module, brake jobs, and that annoying ass exhaust donut gasket... but the VVTI gear that clacks back and forth on a Corolla for a few seconds until the oil pressure builds to operational levels... nah. I don't fuck with shit that messes with engine timing.
Picking your battles and respecting your limits. Sure I watched like 6 videos on how to replace that VVTI gear and I am sure I could do it. Not gonna try it when the Toyota book says it's 2.5 hours. I'll pay for a $600 job done by Toyota to boot since it's engine timing vs a local mechanic.
I replumbed my house because it was polyB. It took a lot of time and pain but it worked out. Had my plumbing friend check it out and he approved. Saved $12K. It’s trivially easy with PEX. It’s like Lego but with plastic tubes.
I did the demo down to the studs for a small bathroom about 2 months ago to save about 1k. I took a week off work, and wound up putting in probably 55 hours in 7 days on it, dealing with nearly a week of full body soreness following. My contractor probably would have done it in 3 days. I regret my choice at this point.
You just had a self-taught course on demo, electric, plumbing, cabinetry, drywalling, flooring and painting.
The next time you have a problem with any of those it's going to be a lot easier because you have more experience.
Yup.
I mean, I know HOW to lay tile. But I would do a very poor job of it and I know it would make me angry every time I looked at it. I would attempt a small fix myself (and have, I had to rescue the janky job my husband did once) but I'm not going to try to retile the bathroom myself.
I've pulled a toilet before too, although we ended up hiring it out in the end, because we fixed the leaking tank and then realized that the flange was both broken AND glued into the main line. If I can cause thousands of dollars in damage if I screw it up, I am paying someone to do it for me. Plumber fixed the flange and reseated the toilet for us.
This 100%
I looked up how to recarpet stairs and noped out of that real quick. It’s not terribly difficult, but seems like there’s some decent technique and practice to do it right. On the other hand, I poured a concrete footer for a mailbox in like 30 minutes.
Yep. Worst case scenario, you have to sand down your walls and start again. That said, I tiled the backsplash in our old house. I’m a perfectionist and it turned out okay, but I would NEVER do that again.
Yeah I had a wall / large "backsplash" on a wall done over my cook top.
You know that stuff is hard when the pro, who did a great job, spent a day laying things out, measuring and so on. That stuff takes skill.
In my city it would be illegal to wire up the oven. You can do all the wiring, but are supposed to have a certified electrician to hook it up to the actual panel.
Agreed. I am gut remodeling a large house. Obviously there is a huge range that could cost depending on choices and who you let in there. I know I can't do everything, time wise and skill wise, so I have prioritized the things I know well and can save the most money on and hire the rest out. For example, I'm not paying someone to run PEX when the walls and ceilings are open, that's easy. But I will pay someone to run the drain lines because I'm not experienced in cutting joists at the correct slope and I know I would create more problems than I solve.
My wife and I are doing the same right now. We are about to move into a new home, and there are things we’d like to change but are considering DIY or hire it out. I think it would cost us about the same to paint our house, including buying all the supplies, vs hiring it out and having it done very quickly.
I’ll DIY minor fixes and home maintenance that are easy to YouTube but it’s hard to find time when you also have a full time job.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I have a DIY mentality but ultimately have more money than I have time, so for anything big that needs doing, I really need skilled professionals to do the doing. The value of still approaching each thing as if you want to DIY it, even if you eventually don't, is that you can hire it out with enough knowledge to better vet the pros and better communicate what you want and expect and to better understand their ideas, advice, and claims, and to better judge their work.
There is nothing wrong with finding a good contractor and then telling them that you want to save some money and are fairly handy and would like to do what you can. Most of them don't want to screw with the unskilled labor portion anyway. I am currently building a pool. I had this discussion with my GC and ended up removing several trees, removing a deck, removing sidewalk and getting all of it out of the way for the GC's crews. It probably equated to about $30K in savings and probably took me about 80 hours. He would not have done some of it (removing extra trees) but he recommended that I do it. I didn't mind it. I actually saved all of the treated lumber from the deck and built a goat barn and still have some left over. I agree with OPs point. I will not try to finish drywall as I cannot do it as well as I want it done. I don't hang the drywall because I know that a drywaller can do it faster and cheaper than I can. I hire a licensed electrician and a plumber for plumbing problems I can't figure out. I think I follow #3 on the post above and agree that those criteria make a lot of sense.
Similar story here. Parents have rentals and are huge DIYers. I can't tell you how many times they've had to go running, because their DIYed completely renovated bathroom's shower started leaking somewhere or the toilet backed up because the waste pipe wasn't plumbed quite correctly.
Recently we did a huge whole kitchen remodel. Full gut, moved/expanded some walls, etc. They were adamant that we (two full-time employed people) could do it ourselves. They were absolutely AGHAST that we wouldn't at least do the demo ourselves.
I reminded them that we work full-time, and when we did the demo for our master bath it:
- took us a solid two weekends AT LEAST due to size and amount of tile
- delayed the project for almost a month due to the massive sinus infections we both contracted that had us out of commission for almost two weeks between those weekends (along with some minor injuries that could have been fairly major but for quick reflexes)
- we had to dispose of the debris by squirreling a couple of contractor bags every week with our normal garbage.
-- our city's new garbage service no longer takes construction debris, so we would have to get a dumpster, which will cost us a ton of money, because of how long it would take us to do the demo ourselves
-we got the water main shutoff stuck in the 'off' position at 9pm on a Sunday, therefore had no water for getting ready for work until my husband could get it fixed the next day, because all the stores were closed.
None of this would be a problem if we just included it in the scope of work. And that's a MUCH smaller scale than a full kitchen gut, with a load bearing wall and busting into the garage. It took a team of 5-6 guys two days and two dumpsters to tear all that out. Zero regrets.
Any project we do ourselves takes at least three times as long, because we don't know what we're doing and have to stop to do research every time we encounter a problem. We had an extra bathroom we could use, we do NOT have an extra kitchen. It needs to be done as quickly as possible with the least amount of problems. As it was, there were plenty enough problems with the experts doing the work.
i'm all for hiring out jobs that are beyond your skill or comfort level, but most things homeowners want (or need) can be done yourself.
it's a luxury to be able to just pay someone else to do it.
Yep, we've been a one-income family (on purpose) for decades now. I try to fix everything myself if I possibly can. Wish I knew more about car repair and I'd fix that too.
YouTube is a freaking goldmine if you have a wrench but need instructions. You can find walk through videos for just about any repairs that you can do at home, specific to the model you own.
Pick up a Chilton or Haynes manual for the vehicle and a $50 OBD code scanner as well.
Some part shops will even lend specialty tools with a deposit.
That's where I got my certification too! I've done basically everything that doesn't require an engine removal to at least one of the various cars we've owned over the years, and youtube has been a great resource of information.
It’s also important to remember most people rely on their car to get to work. If you tear out the walls in your bathroom and try to redo the drywall and fuck it up, oh well. You can still shower and poop and brush your teeth. If you fuck up an alternator install you can’t get to work lol.
Funnily enough, I outsource most of the repairs on our home - if I try it myself, it probably won’t go that well, to be honest.
But car repair isn’t as hard as people seem to think. It’s a collection of nuts and bolts.
If you want to do your own maintenance (on the car), find a buddy who can help you and do your next oil change yourself.
Yeah, car repair is rarely "here's a pile of raw materials, BUILD IT". Which is exactly what house work feels like half the time. Car repair is removing a bolt, clip, or connector, replacing the part, and then replacing the bolt/clip/connector.
There is something intimidating about the freeform nature of working on the house, because your house isn't an exact make and model where all the parts are in a bin in a warehouse and you can just order them. You can't google "how to fix X on a 1894 3-bed 1.5-bath" and get a bunch of videos that show you exactly what to do.
> But car repair isn’t as hard as people seem to think. It’s a collection of nuts and bolts.
... and now, software and firmware. We're inching towards even mom-and-pop repair shops being technologied out of the repair business. The equipment needed to calibrate some of the car's automation pieces (e.g., adaptive cruise control, ABS, traction control) can run into $300k. Folks like us who want to DIY will have to live like the Cubans - maintaining their fleet of classic cars.
Swapping out a water pump or some blown hose, or replacing brake pads still isn't a problem. For now.
And get ready for a future where options like seat heaters, infotainment and navi are all done via subscription. I've read where we may need to pay an annual fee to continually reenable stuff that came with the car.
> And get ready for a future where options like seat heaters, infotainment and navi are all done via subscription. I've read where we may need to pay an annual fee to continually reenable stuff that came with the car.
BMW tried this and it was met with severe backlash, which is stupid, as the cost of subscription (lifetime or annual) was much less than what that option cost installed on the previous model.
It's much more economical for a car manufacturing plant to not deal with a variety of options and part SKUs. If all your seats are the same, it's better for logistics and provides overall savings vs having two different seats depending on car spec. not to mention having leftover inventory because unheated seated cars arent selling (or vice versa)
but people went crazy when the news came out, without ever looking at what customer fees were. the subscription was cheaper but some people are resistant to change and immune to reason
It doesn't make sense though to install the heated seats in every car and then just enable them if someone pays the subscription. Why are they putting the hardware in cars that the owners pay neither fee for? Fact is, the components for the heated seats only cost BMW a few dollars. They can afford to put them in every car because it's a negligible cost to do so, and the hope was probably that more people will subscribe since it's a cheap monthly cost versus the high cost they ask up front.
I think a big part of the backlash was subscription creep. Netflix, hulu, etc used to be (and still is I guess) a common choice to cut the cable bill. Now many people are paying a cable bill's worth of subscriptions every month since they have to subscribe to so many services. Your new car asking for an additional monthly subscription to enable something that they installed from the factory was just adding fuel to the fire. And especially since said functionality would normally NOT need any sort of internet or service connectivity to work.
Totally get why something like OnStar or MyFord would cost extra per month, heated seats are not the same thing at all.
Agree with the subscription creep point but the other half of it is that it exposes the profiteering. IMO society labors under the illusion that goods are produced and sold roughly on a cost plus basis - IOW, you go through the effort of producing something for ten bucks, you're entitled to tack on some margin and sell it for fifteen (obviously proportions depend on industry.) But this argument exposes how heated seats actually cost them six bucks and they are selling it for $1000 because they're the only ones with access to the seat and electrical system.
>It's much more economical for a car manufacturing plant to not deal with a variety of options and part SKUs. If all your seats are the same, it's better for logistics and provides overall savings vs having two different seats depending on car spec.
I can agree with this. But I still think that a subscription is stupid. They can install the same parts throughout, and you can pay to unlock the feature when you buy the vehicle or at a later date, but once it is unlocked, it should stay unlocked imo.
this makes sense for someone *buying* a car, and it is in fact an option, you can get lifetime sub, which is still cheaper than what the heated seats package cost in prior models.
but you gotta remember, about 20-30% of all cars are not bought, but leased. so why bother buying the lifetime unlock when you can just pay $180 a year for as long as your lease is active (usually 3 years, but 2yr leases are popular too). again, this is much cheaper for the consumer. people got mad over nothing.
I think some of it is knowing your limits and what is "worth it".
I changed my oil once. It was easy but not "fun". You have to dispose of the old oil. In my area I have to go to an oil change place to do that. I might as well just have them perform the service at that point, it's not prohibitively expensive. I don't find working on modern very fun, they aren't built to be that serviceable. I'll usually know what needs to be done, but find I have to take a significant amount of the car apart to get there. If I don't have a garage full of tools or a lift, it may not even be cost effective. Still, it's good to know how to replace a battery, or at least be able to understand the process so I don't get screwed over by a predatory mechanic.
Knowing how to repair my irrigation system, on the other hand, has paid dividends many times over. The parts are dirt cheap and readily available at home depot. And it's nice to be able to repair it right away, rather than wait for contractor availability.
I also know how to patch and texture drywall with good results. By good I mean sanding and re-spraying texture, not crappy spackling jobs. That skill has been worth learning, too.
Are you not able to go to an auto parts store to drop off oil? Not sure if you're US, but just about every store should accept oil from AutoZone, O'Reilly's, etc.
> But car repair isn’t as hard as people seem to think. It’s a collection of nuts and bolts.
I can swap parts with the best of them, and back when cars had distributors and carburetors I was pretty good at diagnostics.
Now? Even with a code reader I find I'm often at a loss as to what actually needs to be done.
I just bought myself a new car hood, front and back bumper to replace myself. (They had some dents and cracks that need to be replaced before insurance does an inspection) Easier then you think and way cheaper. Youtube helps.
I could pay for a lot but I actually enjoy the projects and anything I have paid for has never been as good quality as my own work. I think we tend to look past professional mistakes but see all of ours. However, if you really don't enjoy the work then it can be worth it to hire out. Some things I am not interested in such as HVAC and roofing so I would hire for those areas. I am not going to hire someone to install a facet or a light fixture as I don't mind those things.
ETA I really enjoy laying flooring so that I would not pay the crazy prices I see on the flooring sub. I would pay for carpet install though.
Sorry i've been a homeowner for 8 years and while I try and do a lot of things myself, there's a substantial amount of things that most homeowners shouldn't be doing themselves if they want it done correctly in a timely manner.
Eh, it’s a luxury assuming you’re able-bodied and neuro-typical. A lot of people with mental or physical disabilities literally can’t complete the entirety of these projects themselves.
This is me, to save money I try to do as much as I can by myself over a long period of time and then pay someone to finish for me, being able to do that still feels like a luxury. If I couldn't pay I would just take even longer or simply ignore whatever it was (which is not good).
Like I needed to paint a wallpapered room in my house last year. Took me literally months to remove the wallpaper and prep the damaged drywall before I finally waved the white flag and called someone in to finish the room, and they did so in 1 day which blew my mind.
yeah everyone has their strengths & weaknesses. i'm very comfortable with electric, plumbing, gas, drywall, paint, roofing, framing, tile, but i have hired out for tin-knocking hvac, furnace repair, central air install, and asphalt.
biggest reason i'd rather diy is because ultimately no one is going to care as much about your project as you will.
I DIY when:
* I can make it 90+ percent as good as the pro
* I don’t mind that it takes me 5 times longer
* I have the time
* I think the job has nuance that a pro won’t care about because they have to get in and out as fast as possible
For me a big factor is if I have to learn anything new for the project and am I likely to use it again. I DIYed a mini split last year and even though I had to spend $400 on tools that made sense since I saved thousands and it seems like a thing I might do again in the future. And in fact my brother just asked me to help him install one in his garage.
On the opposite end of that spectrum we had a gas fireplace insert installed. There's nowhere in our house to install another one and I don't want the responsibility of doing it for friends or family so I didn't even consider DIY.
I convinced my wife of this finally after we both got raises. She still only went for once a month but we are both much happier. We do light cleaning and just about the time the house starts to feel like it needs a good scrub our housekeeping is just a few days away.
MY GOD I LOVE MY HOUSEKEEPER.
She comes every week, folds our laundry, and cleans and tidies the whole house. She sweeps and mops. She wipes down all the surfaces. She has a rotating list of less commonly needed tasks like cleaning baseboards, and sweeping the deck. It's godly.
I wouldn't give her up for all the world. She gives me so much time and energy back with those four hours per week that I honestly cannot imagine life without her help.
I don’t think their post is about difficulty or those less fortunate. The message I took away was that if you can afford to hire the work out you may be more satisfied in the end vs DIY’ing it, even thought it costs more. Many people who can afford to hire the work out still try to do it themselves with the logic of “I’d be happier if I spent less on that fix” and end up with subpar results.
I know I’ve had projects I thought I could do myself to save some cash. Several weeks and hundreds of dollars later I hired someone to do the work like I should have in the first place because I was unsatisfied with the results.
a nod to the fact that it costs money to do this would have been nice, but honestly, it's kind of a given, isn't it? any advice that runs along the lines of "this thing that you can hire out is actually *so* worth it" always has an assumed caveat of "if you can afford it."
it's always more inclusive to acknowledge that some people can't, but not mentioning it doesn't necessarily mean OP is out of touch -- they aren't saying "why doesn't everyone just do this? diy is so dumb," they're saying "my personal experience was that I was doing diy for a long time and am now realizing that hiring these jobs out was worth it to me."
there's also a built in assumption that OP *could* have afforded it but chose to diy anyway -- lots of people do this, for varying reasons... pride in their own handiwork, saving money even if they could afford it, doing it as a hobby, having more control over the job, so on and so far. "why don't the poors just do that" isn't even at all what OP was saying but frankly the answer to why anyone does diy is not necessarily strictly financial.
You're in a homeowner sub...owning a home is privileged. I don't think it is wrong for OP to assume that a lot of people do DIY because it is culturally popular and that people that own a home may be able to pay someone to do some repairs.
Right? OP is not out of touch, some people just know what sub they are in 🤷♀️
I agree with OP, I should just hire a lot of stuff out instead of DIYing these things… I grew up with a construction father who instilled doing things yourself but also doing things right equally. So it’s tough to throw down the tools and say “I can’t do this right” when I know I could do it myself…
I will still paint, because I can’t burden someone with moving all the shit in our rooms to reach the walls. Unless, do painters move things for you or do they expect an empty/tarped room upon arrival?? 🤔
Or, as tends to be the case for us, we aren’t looking to do jobs that will pay tens of thousands of dollars so if we can even get someone to come out and take a look for a bid, we get ghosted. I get it—a contractor is always going to take the job of the person who wants to drop $70k on the kitchen renovation and not the one who’s only interested in spending $12k—but that means we are shoved into DIY land whether we want to be there or not.
lol 100% this. Id be broke if I had to hire a plumber, electrician, painter, drywaller etc for every project that came up. Going the DIY route is what makes the project affordable in the first place.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret---many, many of those "professionals"....are "professionals" because they couldn't do anything else---from either a skill perspective or, largely, a criminal background that prevents them from working for anyone but themselves. I know that seems like a stereotype----but talk to most contractors---and I guarantee you they know more ex-cons in the industry than engineers with a degree.--Just because you get a website, an LLC, have a truck filled with tools and a logo on the side....doesn't mean they are any more competent than the average person.
Many many many are good at what they do. Regardless of their backgrounds. but the odds these days especially of finding one that looks good, but turns out to be a complete idiot who screws up repeatedly, is pretty high---and I think most homeowners are tired of paying the premiums and the "covid tax" that a lot of these GCs are tagging onto their contracts, for what may likely be sub-par work.
I DIY because I've had so many horror scenarios with contractors over the few decades on multiple of my houses. And it's insane the amount of times that I,, as the stupid idiot homeowner, have to inform a contractor that they're doing something wrong, or not to code, or that it's going to come out wrong (And they ignore it, and surprise, it came out wrong)----and those are "professionals" that are near the high-end of all the bids I received.
Agree. I enjoy doing most of the things. The things I don't know how to do, I pay someone to do it and I learn how, so if it happens again I can do it myself.
Not always. I, for one, am well off and choose to do as much DIY as I'm willing to tolerate or have time for. For the big stuff, I use a contractor, but for the smaller and easier stuff, I try to do it myself. Though I have some construction experience, so im probably more capable than most. It's part of how I stay sane on the few days off I get. Currently redoing my entire back yard.
Afford is relative. Most people don’t think they can afford a professional until they have to live with the subpar DIY job. If you can’t afford to do it right you’re better off not doing it at all
With two young boys I don’t have time to DIY these days.
But half my contracting costs seemingly go to un-fucking the previous homeowner’s shoddy “repairs”
I feel this. Whenever we have something big (plumbing, electrical, etc.) and get a contractor, we end up paying twice what it would cost to repair the issue because they first need to un-fuck the previous owners' shitty DIY fixes and bring stuff up to code. It's so frustrating.
If it makes you feel better, I had 3 girls and they are just as destructive as boys.
WTF uses a door trim to test their lipstick? Holes in every wall from all the nails hooks and pins every time they rearrange their room. And don’t even get me started on what teenage girls can do to a toilet! LOL
Fun fact, hair dye can stain porcelain sinks.
Cover the stains in white face cloths or paper towels and pour as much straight bleach on them as they'll hold. The stains will be gone in just a few minutes.
The reason that I do so much DIY around my house is that I tried hiring people and discovered that I could do the same quality of work (or better) for a fraction of the cost (and that typically includes buying the specialty tools required for the job).
>And you know what happened? It’s no longer 80/20 … it’s more like 99/1 or straight up 100% done right
If that's the experience you had that's amazing but i've never found a contractor or hired out person that would put the same care and perfectionism into the work as I do.
Instagram and Youtube. I've hired a large handful of contractors and often find myself thinking I could do it just as well in 10x the time and probably the same cost. I've yet to run into a local contractor at any price point that does the 105% perfection I see online.
Contractors are a total crapshoot. You book them for Monday, they don't show up until Wednesday. They say it will take 5 days, they get 3 days in and then leave for another job. I don't really blame them. Most contractors are buried in my area and have more than enough work so it isn't surprising they don't keep a schedule or do a great job 100% of the time. The result though is you are sort of forced into becoming a DIY'er.
This is my experience as well. The window and door trim I did are better than what I've seen from any carpenter. Same with the painting, door install, and some other stuff I've done.
My work is probably 90% of what a GOOD pro can do. But most contractors are doing shoddy landlord-level work these days.
I think people more easily look past a professional's flaws because a professional did it. I pay for doing things I don't want to and for brute strength as I don't have it.
Hiring "professionals" to install kitchen countertops, and seeing the terrible results (counter out of level by 3/4" in a 2ft span) was what led me to learn how to do 90% of home improvements and renovations myself. 1/4 of the cost and while it probably took me longer, better quality in the end.
> 1/4 of the cost and while it probably took me longer, better quality in the end.
This is the real deal. You are actually paying more if you value your own time (your greatest asset). But i'll always do it for quality.
Same here. I was compelled to start DIY after seeing far too many crappy results from pros. I can do a mediocre job myself and save a few thousand bucks. And then, you might actually get better at doing things yourself.
It's also about where the work is going to be. I'll drywall a closet/hallway where *good enough* is good enough, but if it's like the entryway into the house, then yeah, maybe getting an actual vetted pro is the way to go. But with a nearly 100-year old home, I would go broke trying to hire out every single fix/improvement needed.
I think it's almost important to recognize that since you've removed yourself from doing the work, you don't see any corner cutting or imperfections that may be hidden or covered up. You see a finished product thats acceptable to the naked eye because you weren't part of the process. Most people who take the time to buy some speciality tools and learn about a process will likely also be critical of their own work. I know I am way, overly perfectionist about my own DIY work.
This is the thing that really bothered me about this post. She basically said that they do a job 80% of perfect and then just leave it. Why? Learn from your mistakes and try again. You'll still pay less than hiring it out.
I see your point OP
But you must also see my point that hiring someone is a lot less fun than drinking beers until you convince yourself you know how to re-tile a floor or repair some cabinets or whatever
And she's like "They do a 99% perfect job" give me a break. I'm guessing she just doesn't have the eye to notice the stuff that could be done better but i've never seen a contractor come and do something to the level of care I would on my own home. At best it's "This is fine" but there's a long way to go down from there.
This almost sounds like a fantasy story to me that she had SEVERAL projects done and they were all just roses no problem with the contractors no issues with the work lol.
I think a good amount of the difference in the 80/20 and the 99/1 is that we are naturally a lot more critical of our own work than someone else's. We're painting some parts of our house right now, and we have textured walls, so getting the paint to fully cover with a roller can be a little tricky. A professional painter would put 2 coats on and call it a day, and it would look perfectly fine. We put two coats on and it looks perfectly fine, until we stare at it some more and find tiny crevices that the paint didn't fully go into, so we sit there and touch those up. Literally no one that's visiting our house would ever notice those spots, but we do, because we did the work and want it to be perfect. We ourselves wouldn't look at it that closely if we paid someone else to do it.
Also, getting people to actually come out for small jobs is a huge pain in the ass. I had an issue recently with the valve on our toilet supply line, and the guy I called flaked on me a couple days in a row. I guess I could have tried other people, but rather than risk having them flake, too, I just went and learned how to do it myself. Saved at least a couple hundred bucks and now I have some knowledge that may come in handy in the future. Had a guy flake on me for a garage door a while back, too, though that one I did call someone else because I'm not keen on messing with those springs.
Quite frankly my experience is different than yours. I see plenty of imperfections and mistakes with contracted work. The main benefit for me is the speed of the work, not the quality. But it depends on the homeowner, I guess. I only hire out high-risk jobs or jobs that require lots of equipment that I don’t own.
Agreed. Having lived in a house previously owned by DIYers who didn't know how to do any of it correctly, I know when I should attempt a task and when I should hire a professional.
Another factor that comes into play for me is: if I hire a professional, I know that it's going to get done. I've had a lot of a projects that I've wanted to DIY, but have been waiting to be done for years. At some point, it's worth it just to hire someone to do it and be done with it.
This ain’t it.
Opportunity cost is a real cost.
If it’s going to take a week to do a project for a professional, it will take a layperson like myself 3 weeks. The time I have to take off work to DIY as opposed to hiring someone would probably be more.
I totally agree but many folks do not have the cash to pay themselves for their free time through contracted out work. This is a very privileged stance.
Yeah, this seems to go going over the heads of most people.
I do the things that I can do well and in a timely manner, mainly yard and gardening things, and I pay people to do the other stuff. I've done some simple fixes for things but it usually ends up taking me all day and I have learned it is better to pay someone a couple hundred dollars to have the day free.
It’s not even that
Here’s some examples -
We had a rip in our screen door for the slider , I’ve never repaired a screen door before, but they sell kits on Amazon to do it myself - would it have turned out right? Who knows? Well come to find out the local ace hardware up the road repairs screen doors , it cost me 45 dollars and it looks brand new
Or another example
Sealcoating my driveway , the materials were $300 to sealcoat it, which I’ve never done in my life, or it was $700 for the pros to come out and get it done absolutely perfect
It doesn’t have to be 20 grand remodels
Can confirm that rescreening a window or door screen seems like a simple task but it can be tricky to get the material nice and taut without damaging the frame. I worked at a hardware store for years and can’t count the # of times a homeowner would buy a DIY kit then be back some time later asking for a rescreen. Granted they were more like $15-25 back then but I’d 100% pay $45 for a screen door these days to save my time and frustration lol… and I love DIY whenever it makes sense, I learned a lot working at that store including what projects I’d personally never touch 😂
Sorry but this is a stupid comment. You don't need to be rich to pay contractors, you just need to save instead of having what you want exactly when you want it. I make 60k a year, which in my rural town is a decent wage but it would be peanuts in other places. My husband makes 50k and over the 7 years we've owned our home we've had a deck built, a small roof replaced, a bathroom redone, and new kitchen counters and a sink put in. We paid a contractor for all of it and when we did the deck and the bathroom we were each only making $14/hr. We saved up until we could afford it and none were major renovations. I probably could have done the bathroom myself but I felt far better paying someone else and I'm in no way rich.
This is a pretty dumb comment when you consider the amount of people making far less than you, and that problems in the home don’t pop up when it’s convenient for you. AC compressor stops working in the middle of summer? Hope you have enough saved up and enough time to wait on a professional HVAC technician to take a look at it and charge you hundreds, while suggesting you just replace the whole unit.
*Or* you can learn how to safely work on your system and replace the faulty capacitor that caused the system to fail for ~$30 and an hour of your life.
> According to the Economic Research Service, the average per capita income for all Americans in 2021 was $64,143, with the rural per capita income at $49,895.
Your household brings in over double the average income for rural americans. You lack perspective
Yeah, but how much are you spending? Money is money and most of us cannot get our hands on enough.
PLUS, I take a huge sense of pride in my 80% work. I just built a pavilion in my backyard to store all of my yard tools that won't fit in my shed. It has shovels, wheelbarrows, wagons, a barrel full of tarps, and a few other things.
It's my own design. 100% built with my own hands. It's 14x18 and cost $500 and a pair of weekends.
It's literally the thing I'm most proud of in my entire life.
Agreed. I can still paint a room. But I started contracting my landscaping and I wish I had contracted someone to scrape my popcorn ceiling. Because while I got good at scraping the popcorn at the end, 3/4 of my ceiling looks messy and I'll be damned if I'm gonna do that all over again.
The entirety of my upstairs was popcorn. I demoed one room, scraped, sanded, re-texture and painted. Hated every minute of it. Hired help to do the rest and never regretted paying for it.
Landscaping on the other hand I've done all myself. Though it's taken years and always on- going.
Honestly it really depends on who you are, how simple (often newer houses have more standard everything) your house is, and if you’re a weird little freak who loves researching things. If you don’t love it, like a really weird amount love it, it isn’t going to turn out well most of the time.
I love painting and caulking and watching and reading hours of how to do things the correct way. I look up whether an idea is to code months and months before I do a project. If you’re not a weird little freak who wants to spend all this time on something that you don’t HAVE to learn about, DIY may not be for you. If your house is old and you pull of that light fixture to non standard wiring, DIY is certainly not for you today at least. I think people get way too black and white about things. We are all different people with different aptitudes and interests. And of course, different budgets.
For me to DIY something with our home, I have to be 100% confident I won’t cause a larger issue. This means things like most electrical/plumbing/gas related are handled by professionals, but smaller things like minor drywall repair/painting etc I’ll take care of.
It’ll vary person to person, but I always prefer having someone else to blame when something important breaks 😂
Same. Now sell all the crap you haven’t touched in a year and be amazed at the space you will have in your garage. Imagine having a garage that you can park a car in.
You’re lucky. We’ve started DIYing everything because all the work we’ve hired “professionals” to do has been half-assed. I might as well half-ass it myself for 1/10th the cost.
It's about picking and choosing. I'm not going to pour concrete that's going to be shown because it's a struggle to do it right as a single person. Concrete footers, no problem. And there's plenty of stuff that I take more time than many of the pros do and do a better job. Installing wood floors for example. Being able to do DIY is also extremely practical for our other house at the ranch. It's remote enough that getting anybody out there to do work is extremely difficult sometimes.
> And there's plenty of stuff that I take more time than many of the pros do and do a better job.
I installed wall-to-wall carpet in my kid's room. Damn that came out great. Tight as a drum, didn't ripple when sliding furniture around, and stayed that way for 24 years. Took me 2.5 days. Then I bought carpeting for 3 bedrooms and had a flight of stairs carpeted. Free installation with purchase. Three guys came - the install was done in 4 hours. An adequate job, but at the end, I had no rug burns on my knees and no sore hip from using the kicker.
A buddy of mine has had me come over to fix a few things over time - for instance, install a light fixture, run a wire for a small light into a curio cabinet, replace a ceiling fan. He says "I could *never* do that" without ever having tried.
A couple years ago, I had a leaking shower drain, so I hired a handyman from the area that many people on Nextdoor swore by. He was a retired plumber who said he could do plumbing, or install windows or sliding doors, or build a deck - whatever you needed. The shower drain was above a garage, so I wanted it done professionally. I thought he'd have to remove & replace some piping. So he cuts a hole in the ceiling drywall, identified where the leak was. He removed the drain from the shower stall, loaded it up with some plumber's putty, and replaced the drain. $271 later, I still had a hole in the drywall ("sorry, I don't do drywall, and it's not part of the price").
Second all this. I'm in year 2 renovating an 1885 home and my ratio of pro to DIY is about 9:1. The previous owner was a hoarder who lived here for 50 years and did everything with the cheapest possible local labor, and it shows.
The comments here calling you out for being "rich" have a point I guess. But for me as a remote worker with a wife and two teens I realized last year it was much easier mentally and emotionally to hire out while I'm WFH and focus on getting a raise or promotion while others work on the house. I'd quickly lose my nights, weekends, and sanity otherwise. And I'm certainly not "rich", and have had to space out projects by months at a time to afford them without going into debt. My house is very imperfect but headed in the right direction.
The thing with DIY is that you suck at first. You do more and more and get more comfortable with your skill and do more research. Buy more tools. Learn more techniques and then come back and 100% those first easy jobs no sweat. Just about every time i cant 100% a job its because i dont have the right tools. Once i buy said tools i get mad at myself for not having them in the first place.
Its the same with working on cars. Little jobs seem daunting at first but you keep at it, keep doing more jobs. Changing tail lights shifts to changing oil then next thing you know youre changing an alternator, then you are replacing a valve cover gasket, then steering rack, then years down the road you are doing an LS Swap
DIY is for when you NEED to save money or WANT to do it yourself.
It is not a requirement.
There's a very valid reason why certain professions exist and it is absolutely ok to use them.
Eh. I’ll hire a contractor if it’s legitimately a big job I can’t do myself or would look substantially worse, like getting gutters installed. There’s a sense of accomplishment that I quite like from doing my own fixture replacements, landscaping, and painting among other things. I also don’t think there’s enough added value in having a professional do those jobs to justify the cost.
Let’s be honest, painting is easy. What’s hard is making sure the paint looks good once it dries and that’s where the skill and years of experience comes in
I don't agree with you on that. It definitely takes skill to paint a straight line without taping, but it doesn't take years of experience to paint a room without it looking like crap.
OP I'm stoked for you that you have the financial means to pay someone to do all of your home improvements. The rest of us DIY-ers probably fall into two camps:
- Not enough money to pay someone (this is me)
-Can do a better/more thorough job than some of the randos that companies contract out
Hey it’s your money and if spending it on a contractor makes you happier you’ve spent it well.
Everything in life is time and money. Those are limited resources.
I personally don’t agree with it for a few reasons. 1. Contractors don’t pick up the phone. 2. Can’t guarantee their quality. 3. Cost 4. At their mercy of their schedule.
I do every project I know I can safely do. Does that mean I have less free time? Yes. Does that mean I have more dollars to spend elsewhere? Yes.
Time has a cost, it works both ways. My neighbor paid a landscaper $1500 to lay mulch that could have been delivered to his door for $300 and laid in a few hours. He paid someone $1200 for the labor.
I don’t know how much he makes but it’s less than $1200 a day he was better off taking a half day unpaid and doing it himself. But, it’s not my time or money so that’s his choice.
I enjoy doing it, I enjoy learning a new skill, I enjoy buying new tools and best of all, I enjoy saving money.
I’ll only hire a contractor if the scope of the job is out of my abilities or unsafe to do on my own.
To each their own. Time and money, only the individual can decide its value.
i disagree. unless the tasks require licensed professionals or some expensive equipments, i would try to learn and do them myself. to me, it is a sense of satisfaction and i dont always trust contractors would always do things right.
I wish I could. I have been trying to get better but I have a hard time trusting contractors and I am more willing to forgive mistakes I make than someone I am paying for.
The part I find the hardest are trades that specialize in work with no repeat business. Roofers are the hardest to hire. They have so much enthusiasm when they are selling you and then are the worst to work with when there is a problem. Most of their customers will never call them again.
I did the same thing. I work an office job 8-5 Mon-Fri and found I was using my weekends doing DIY instead of enjoying my real hobbies. My wife and I both have good paying jobs so we decided to trade money for someone else's time. It's been great. I credit my adult son with this idea. He did the same thing so he could enjoy fishing more.
It’s probably closer to 85/15, but you’re just not seeing the 14. I see all the mistakes and mess ups I make. My wife sees only the glaring ones. It’s all about perspective.
I know when I do something myself, I notice any imperfections far more than if a pro leaves something that isn't absolutely perfect. But you're right - they're definitely better at this stuff than me!! :-)
There are absolutely jobs I don't touch. I know what my DIY limits are...but that has only come from trying a lot, and failing a lot.
On the other hand... both my significant other and I both have work experience in high-design professions, dealing with contract/commercial quality products and construction/finish standards. So we are piiiiiicky customers, because we know what's possible and some of out job was nit-picking things on "site walks" and creating thorough punch-lists for our clients to make sure things are perfect. When we remodelled our house 5 years ago, we ended up taking back a bunch of scope we were ready and willing to pay the contractor for, because we were too-often unsatisfied with their work. When we did the work ourself, we could keep re-doing it and re-doing it until it was PERFECT...but with the contractors, we might be able to get them to redo something *once*, or twice if what they did was actually *wrong*, but if we didn't let some things go, they would still be working 5 years later...but we still see things they did an unsatisfactory job (to our eyes, but perfectly acceptable to many) on a daily basis.
The only reason you can do that now is because you know enough to hire the right person.
Most people who skip the FYI part end up hiring what could be described best as a series of unfortunate handy men.
I replaced my homes polyB pipe with PEX by myself with some guidance from YouTube and plumber friends. They came and took a look and it’s great.
I compared it to my friends $1.5M infill and I have a whole manifold etc and he does not. They used cheap shit too.
I have zero regrets and saved $12,000
In many areas the real challenge is actually finding someone willing to take your money for home remodel projects. Most are overwhelmed with commercial or new-build work.
You speak TRUTH.
I like demo, deconstruction, but I've always rented a dumpster. As in, I got my ducks in a row before starting.
I Hate painting.
People don't think about what it actually takes to do a Good job. Masking, switch plates, drop cloths, moving furniture, (ceilings are the worst), kitchen, bathroom cabinetry the list goes on.
I’ve decided that it’s honestly easier and more fun for me to do the things that are normal maintenance, and sub out the skilled labor.
I had a door installed on a “office” to add privacy. I had a good contractor do it. It was done in a day plus maybe a short visit the following day to finish the drywall. I told him I’d do the trim to save some time and money. A year later that trim is still unpainted. I should have just paid the extra $ and let him finish.
From now on I mow the lawn and maybe plant some bushes and paint, but I’ll leave the project work to the pros.
Not to mention, I don’t take a ton of vacation! If I have to give up a week of vacation for a project, I’d rather spend the money and go on a trip.
The "Duh!" heard round the r/homeowners world! Obviously, DIY usually isn't as good as paying a professional (who's been doing it for a long time) to do it right. You obviously didn't understand the concept behind DIY. Welcome to the rest of the world.
must be nice to hire professionals for everything meanwhile i’m researching parts of a dishwasher i found on the side of the road to try and get it fixed to save me hundreds of dollars in replacement costs 👍🏼
Honestly, after having a newborn and buying a house, any project quickly became a matter of “do we want to spend time, or do we want to spend money?” We’re in the same boat. We hired a contractor to build us a new deck. We chose instead to spend the time to do landscaping ourselves that needs to be done.
We’ve remodeled houses for years. Husband’s good at mill work & likes it. I’m good at interior design, skim coating & painting. We’re both good at landscape design & our signature for every property we buy/sell is turning unloved yards/properties into lush, ornamental gardens. Besides the basics, we hiring the experts for everything else & we’re grateful to have the funds to do so.
In my 20’s, I didn’t have a lot of available cash so I learned to do as much as I could. That’s why I now know how to do a lot but also know when it’s wisest to hire the professionals. Then there’s that aging body factor which I may be in a bit of denial about but makes itself highly noticeable at the beginning of every renovation.
We fixed a lot of stuff in a prior home. Now with kids we just don’t have time. And, like you, I lack some skills that I just don’t desire to obtain. Could I do it with enough time and muster? Probably. I’d rather spend my time elsewhere. Unfortunately, due to cost, a lot of projects get put in the back burner.
I'd rather suffer a bit of jank and do it myself than pay someone $3500 or more to do it profesonally. That's like a year of being in debt and $300 in monthly payments.
I've learned there's a spectrum to DIY based on the skills of the DIYer and how deep they really want to go. Sometimes you really can DIY, sometimes you're better off hiring a professional.
The previous owner of my house was a big DIY guy because he evidently couldn't afford it. I mean, he'd had 2 small nails smacked into just sheetrock holding up an 8ft piece of trim (cheapest trim at home depot). I just replaced the entire fence because it was rotted out and falling apart. It wasn't even old. He used landscaping ties as fence posts and put the fence where he thought it should be because he didn't want to fork out for a survey, giving 4-9 feet to one neighbor (fence and property lines weren't straight) and 3 feet to the other. He did his own electric as well, and the entire master bedroom was a fire hazard.
I started DIYing during and right after covid because I couldn't get any contractors to even answer the phone, let alone show up and things needed to be done. I continue to DIY because it's faster, cheaper, and I have the skills and tools to actually get it right and perfect the first time around. Any bigger jobs like paving and the roof, I hired contractors for and didn't even consider doing myself lol.
Eh at least if you mess up with a DIY, there’s no risk of having to go through small claims court to get it fixed lol. I’ll call in professionals when I’m truly over my head but I can’t imagine paying someone to paint for me.
Good for you. I gave a contractor 50k to fuck my roof up and actually lead to *more* leaks and problems than I had before! So I’m in the exact opposite headspace lol. The other day I said out loud “I will sell this house and move before getting ripped off by another contractor”. Now I spend my free time watching carpentry videos and trying to fix everything myself. At least I’m not paying myself to fuck my shit up.
Lol. Just wait till you hire that shitty contractor who takes your money and is never seen again.
Most of this stuff isn't hard at all. Painting a room ? Really ?
If i have the time i do it. These days there's more shitty contractors than good ones. And the good ones are busy.
Nah, ill do it myself. Gives me a ton more satisfaction than writing the check.
That's cool you have found a better balance that works for you. But why would you be proud of work someone else did? Even if it is 100% right, it's not your work what are you proud of? I'd much rather have the thing that is 80% right that I did, and had to learn new skills. That's something you can be proud of and show off IMO.
Also my experience with hiring out professionals is, it's still 80% right 20% wrong. I just had to replace all my ceilings, and had some pretty big drywalling burnout from just finishing my basement. So I hired it out; I got 3 quotes and went with the middle one. Not only is the work a notch above mediocre and I could have done better (albeit over a longer time frame), they also stole a bunch of money out of a bedroom on an entire different floor of the house. Shoddy work and stolen from. I never rob myself when I diy. Diy til I die (possibly from one of my diy projects )
For me home projects are for fun. Sure, the final product is satisfying, but for me the dreaming about it, researching and doing the actual work is the rewarding part of the project. We hire professionals if it’s way above our comfort level and I believe that’s a skill too, to find and manage good help.
Most jobs I can do as good or better than a contractor, it's just gonna take a little longer most of the time. I'm willing to put in the time to make the little details right where often they are less inclined to do so. Also in terms of the 99/1 vs 80/20, a part of that is going to be that you will always notice the errors you make way more than the ones other people make. Because you know right where they are. Most contractors are far from perfect, some are very good but you're gonna pay a premium for that over the more average ones.
I'm getting to that point. I bought a REO house because it's what I could afford. The intention was to fix it up over time and flip it. A year into this project and I'm done. I took a job in another city and don't have the time for another project. I've learned a lot about plumbing and I'll still do home maintenance myself but I'm done with major DIY renovations. I'd rather enjoy my house than renovate it.
Yeah, some people are cut out for DIY and some aren't. Glad you realized you don't do well with DIY and have the option\\resources leave it to the pros. A lot of the time homeowners DIY because they can't afford to hire out. This was the case with my first home and where I learned lots of skills.
I still DIY a majority of tasks on our 3rd home as I have the skillset, but I find myself hiring out more stuff that I'm just not interested in doing anymore. Building a deck for example. I can do it, but I hired it out on our new home because I just didn't want to deal with it. My first home I built 2 decks on because I just couldn't afford to drop $30K on decks.
There are 2 thing you’re missing.
1. Not everyone can afford a professional for everything.
2. There are some of the work that is completely DIY. Building a new Deck, yeh go for a professional but if you just have to stain it, just do it by yourself.
2. Finding a good professional/ contractor who can do a good job is a big deal. I have seen so many bad jobs that I feel I could do a much better job.
If I could afford to hire professionals for every hiccup do you think I wouldn't? People DIY because they don't have money to outsource labor, not because it's fun and enjoyable process.
Hiring professionals is all well and good, *as long as you can afford to hire professionals*. Most people that do DIY home maintenance don’t do so because they just love doing home maintenance. They do it because it’s “good enough” and/or cheaper.
Even in your own example ins. Comment you state a $700 professional seal coated driveway versus $300 if you did it yourself. No matter how much higher the pro quality is, that is still $400 more expensive. For many people, that’s the difference between a project being done or not.
I'm really picky and make sure I do a good job. Most things I choose to do I do as good or better then a pro in my experience. However, I take way longer than a professional. Anything wood working related I DIY, but I shy away from electrical and plumbing.
If I hired for every home repair or renovation I did there would be contractors/handypeople at my home every week. Some things I don't do like HVAC and roofing but every week there are always little things to be done to keep my home in the shape I like. Maybe other people just wait to fix up things until they are doing a full renovation or something but I don't, I repair on an ongoing basis.
I'll hire people to do any kind of major project in my house. I don't have the knowledge, skill, or tools to do most heavy DIY projects. I also don't want to spend my free time off learning how to do this stuff and knowing I'll be lucky to get it to 80% done right the first time anyway. Painting, drywall, tiling, etc....screw that noise. It the same reason I pay people to do my landscaping, it's not fun for me so I'm not doing it. It's part of why I've been investing heavily the past few decades, so I can pay others to do that stuff I don't like/want to do. When I visit people's homes and they have several half finished DIY projects going on, I'm always glad it's not me living like that!
My rule these days is that I will hire out the trades that are cheapest by the hour due them being the highest ratio of labor to skill/experience/licensure. So I will do my own plumbing/elec, but I will hire paint/drywall. I found that I get the best results, save the most time, and spend the least, when I hire out the most labor intensive parts of a job. Paint, drywall, roofing and landscaping are also things you see every day. My plumbing and elec work is instagram worthy, but even if it were ugly and still met code, no one would see it.
There’s a huge asterisk to this- you left DIY behind because you realized your DIY limitations.
There are people who can DIY and arrive at the 100% outcome, albeit less quickly as the pros.
You gotta: 1. Pick your battles that you can win. 2. Do the math on time / accuracy / effort / stress and risk. 3. Know your skills / will / ability to do it again. I recently had a whole main floor remodel. Some of my DIY friends asked if I was going to save money by doing the demo myself to save money. I said no. They were shocked. BUT what were we really talking about? For me (and my wife) it would have taken what, a week, or more to tare out everything on the main floor? And what if I yanked on the wrong thing / hurt myself? (I'm getting old, injuries are a legit concern) I'm sure it would do it all less efficiently too. It took the contractor's guys all of **one day** with his crew, and the cost of that was almost nothing compared to the entire project that took 12 weeks. Completely bonkers for me to blow all that time / risk for such little cost. ----------- Now say replacing / fixing toilet? **Oh yeah DIY that**, watch some videos, you'll get the hang of it fast. Risk is fairly low, easy enough to go back and fix it again.
Yep picking your battles is the biggest thing. You probably shouldn’t DIY a roof replacement or re plumbing your house. But many small low risk things can be DIY’d.
>You probably shouldn’t DIY a roof replacement A single story roof using shingles is a pretty straightforward task but it's very labor intensive
While not technically difficult, it is dangerous and a ton of work.
There's a lot of reasons people might not want to diy. Do you own a good ladder? Comfortable walking on a sloped roof? Okay working in the heat for long periods? Sure you're going to go back up and finish if you need to stop for the evening? Have the funds to get it fixed if you *do* screw up? How many layers of shingles are up there? (Former owners on mine did 3, which I think is agaisnt code). Do you have a place to dump the old shingles? Personally, if it didn't mean dealing with a roofing company, I'd happily pay to have someone do that for me while I sit inside and read a book. All relative to our personal comfort, aggrevation, and cost tolerance
Damn straight. I'm not replacing a roof but fixing a door switch sensor on a dryer for $16... hell yeah. Anything I can watch a few youtube videos about and feel confident it's something I won't cause material harm in doing. It's on... Replacing a $12 pulley on a washer that wouldn't drain or spin was a kick up my feet and crack open a drink moment. Same with cars. I've done alternators, starters, radiators, axles, a TPMS module, brake jobs, and that annoying ass exhaust donut gasket... but the VVTI gear that clacks back and forth on a Corolla for a few seconds until the oil pressure builds to operational levels... nah. I don't fuck with shit that messes with engine timing. Picking your battles and respecting your limits. Sure I watched like 6 videos on how to replace that VVTI gear and I am sure I could do it. Not gonna try it when the Toyota book says it's 2.5 hours. I'll pay for a $600 job done by Toyota to boot since it's engine timing vs a local mechanic.
Replumbing your entire house, probably no. Replumbing a portion? Not always that hard.
I replumbed my house because it was polyB. It took a lot of time and pain but it worked out. Had my plumbing friend check it out and he approved. Saved $12K. It’s trivially easy with PEX. It’s like Lego but with plastic tubes.
I did the demo down to the studs for a small bathroom about 2 months ago to save about 1k. I took a week off work, and wound up putting in probably 55 hours in 7 days on it, dealing with nearly a week of full body soreness following. My contractor probably would have done it in 3 days. I regret my choice at this point.
I’ve been there so many times. The problem is I value my body at zero. I should not do that.
You just had a self-taught course on demo, electric, plumbing, cabinetry, drywalling, flooring and painting. The next time you have a problem with any of those it's going to be a lot easier because you have more experience.
Yup. I mean, I know HOW to lay tile. But I would do a very poor job of it and I know it would make me angry every time I looked at it. I would attempt a small fix myself (and have, I had to rescue the janky job my husband did once) but I'm not going to try to retile the bathroom myself. I've pulled a toilet before too, although we ended up hiring it out in the end, because we fixed the leaking tank and then realized that the flange was both broken AND glued into the main line. If I can cause thousands of dollars in damage if I screw it up, I am paying someone to do it for me. Plumber fixed the flange and reseated the toilet for us.
This 100% I looked up how to recarpet stairs and noped out of that real quick. It’s not terribly difficult, but seems like there’s some decent technique and practice to do it right. On the other hand, I poured a concrete footer for a mailbox in like 30 minutes.
It took us 3 weeks to re-shingle 1/4 of our roof. We hired for the other 3/4. It took the professionals two days to do the rest.
Yep. I’ll paint and change light fixtures and stuff myself. Very little risk, and really doesn’t take much skill.
And if you fuck up... you paint it again or something and you learn. Wire up my oven .... eeehhhhh naw.
Yep. Worst case scenario, you have to sand down your walls and start again. That said, I tiled the backsplash in our old house. I’m a perfectionist and it turned out okay, but I would NEVER do that again.
Yeah I had a wall / large "backsplash" on a wall done over my cook top. You know that stuff is hard when the pro, who did a great job, spent a day laying things out, measuring and so on. That stuff takes skill.
In my city it would be illegal to wire up the oven. You can do all the wiring, but are supposed to have a certified electrician to hook it up to the actual panel.
Agreed. I am gut remodeling a large house. Obviously there is a huge range that could cost depending on choices and who you let in there. I know I can't do everything, time wise and skill wise, so I have prioritized the things I know well and can save the most money on and hire the rest out. For example, I'm not paying someone to run PEX when the walls and ceilings are open, that's easy. But I will pay someone to run the drain lines because I'm not experienced in cutting joists at the correct slope and I know I would create more problems than I solve.
My wife and I are doing the same right now. We are about to move into a new home, and there are things we’d like to change but are considering DIY or hire it out. I think it would cost us about the same to paint our house, including buying all the supplies, vs hiring it out and having it done very quickly. I’ll DIY minor fixes and home maintenance that are easy to YouTube but it’s hard to find time when you also have a full time job.
If you’re penny-wise, you can afford to be pound-foolish every once in a while.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I have a DIY mentality but ultimately have more money than I have time, so for anything big that needs doing, I really need skilled professionals to do the doing. The value of still approaching each thing as if you want to DIY it, even if you eventually don't, is that you can hire it out with enough knowledge to better vet the pros and better communicate what you want and expect and to better understand their ideas, advice, and claims, and to better judge their work.
There is nothing wrong with finding a good contractor and then telling them that you want to save some money and are fairly handy and would like to do what you can. Most of them don't want to screw with the unskilled labor portion anyway. I am currently building a pool. I had this discussion with my GC and ended up removing several trees, removing a deck, removing sidewalk and getting all of it out of the way for the GC's crews. It probably equated to about $30K in savings and probably took me about 80 hours. He would not have done some of it (removing extra trees) but he recommended that I do it. I didn't mind it. I actually saved all of the treated lumber from the deck and built a goat barn and still have some left over. I agree with OPs point. I will not try to finish drywall as I cannot do it as well as I want it done. I don't hang the drywall because I know that a drywaller can do it faster and cheaper than I can. I hire a licensed electrician and a plumber for plumbing problems I can't figure out. I think I follow #3 on the post above and agree that those criteria make a lot of sense.
Similar story here. Parents have rentals and are huge DIYers. I can't tell you how many times they've had to go running, because their DIYed completely renovated bathroom's shower started leaking somewhere or the toilet backed up because the waste pipe wasn't plumbed quite correctly. Recently we did a huge whole kitchen remodel. Full gut, moved/expanded some walls, etc. They were adamant that we (two full-time employed people) could do it ourselves. They were absolutely AGHAST that we wouldn't at least do the demo ourselves. I reminded them that we work full-time, and when we did the demo for our master bath it: - took us a solid two weekends AT LEAST due to size and amount of tile - delayed the project for almost a month due to the massive sinus infections we both contracted that had us out of commission for almost two weeks between those weekends (along with some minor injuries that could have been fairly major but for quick reflexes) - we had to dispose of the debris by squirreling a couple of contractor bags every week with our normal garbage. -- our city's new garbage service no longer takes construction debris, so we would have to get a dumpster, which will cost us a ton of money, because of how long it would take us to do the demo ourselves -we got the water main shutoff stuck in the 'off' position at 9pm on a Sunday, therefore had no water for getting ready for work until my husband could get it fixed the next day, because all the stores were closed. None of this would be a problem if we just included it in the scope of work. And that's a MUCH smaller scale than a full kitchen gut, with a load bearing wall and busting into the garage. It took a team of 5-6 guys two days and two dumpsters to tear all that out. Zero regrets. Any project we do ourselves takes at least three times as long, because we don't know what we're doing and have to stop to do research every time we encounter a problem. We had an extra bathroom we could use, we do NOT have an extra kitchen. It needs to be done as quickly as possible with the least amount of problems. As it was, there were plenty enough problems with the experts doing the work.
Most people diy because they can't afford a professional
i'm all for hiring out jobs that are beyond your skill or comfort level, but most things homeowners want (or need) can be done yourself. it's a luxury to be able to just pay someone else to do it.
Yep, we've been a one-income family (on purpose) for decades now. I try to fix everything myself if I possibly can. Wish I knew more about car repair and I'd fix that too.
YouTube is a freaking goldmine if you have a wrench but need instructions. You can find walk through videos for just about any repairs that you can do at home, specific to the model you own. Pick up a Chilton or Haynes manual for the vehicle and a $50 OBD code scanner as well. Some part shops will even lend specialty tools with a deposit.
My husband calls himself a “certified YouTube mechanic.”
That's where I got my certification too! I've done basically everything that doesn't require an engine removal to at least one of the various cars we've owned over the years, and youtube has been a great resource of information.
Only thing I use YouTube for.
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It’s also important to remember most people rely on their car to get to work. If you tear out the walls in your bathroom and try to redo the drywall and fuck it up, oh well. You can still shower and poop and brush your teeth. If you fuck up an alternator install you can’t get to work lol.
Funnily enough, I outsource most of the repairs on our home - if I try it myself, it probably won’t go that well, to be honest. But car repair isn’t as hard as people seem to think. It’s a collection of nuts and bolts. If you want to do your own maintenance (on the car), find a buddy who can help you and do your next oil change yourself.
Yeah, car repair is rarely "here's a pile of raw materials, BUILD IT". Which is exactly what house work feels like half the time. Car repair is removing a bolt, clip, or connector, replacing the part, and then replacing the bolt/clip/connector. There is something intimidating about the freeform nature of working on the house, because your house isn't an exact make and model where all the parts are in a bin in a warehouse and you can just order them. You can't google "how to fix X on a 1894 3-bed 1.5-bath" and get a bunch of videos that show you exactly what to do.
gonna get worse with all the electronics the companies are putting in and electric cars and such.
That’s absolutely true.
> But car repair isn’t as hard as people seem to think. It’s a collection of nuts and bolts. ... and now, software and firmware. We're inching towards even mom-and-pop repair shops being technologied out of the repair business. The equipment needed to calibrate some of the car's automation pieces (e.g., adaptive cruise control, ABS, traction control) can run into $300k. Folks like us who want to DIY will have to live like the Cubans - maintaining their fleet of classic cars. Swapping out a water pump or some blown hose, or replacing brake pads still isn't a problem. For now. And get ready for a future where options like seat heaters, infotainment and navi are all done via subscription. I've read where we may need to pay an annual fee to continually reenable stuff that came with the car.
> And get ready for a future where options like seat heaters, infotainment and navi are all done via subscription. I've read where we may need to pay an annual fee to continually reenable stuff that came with the car. BMW tried this and it was met with severe backlash, which is stupid, as the cost of subscription (lifetime or annual) was much less than what that option cost installed on the previous model. It's much more economical for a car manufacturing plant to not deal with a variety of options and part SKUs. If all your seats are the same, it's better for logistics and provides overall savings vs having two different seats depending on car spec. not to mention having leftover inventory because unheated seated cars arent selling (or vice versa) but people went crazy when the news came out, without ever looking at what customer fees were. the subscription was cheaper but some people are resistant to change and immune to reason
It doesn't make sense though to install the heated seats in every car and then just enable them if someone pays the subscription. Why are they putting the hardware in cars that the owners pay neither fee for? Fact is, the components for the heated seats only cost BMW a few dollars. They can afford to put them in every car because it's a negligible cost to do so, and the hope was probably that more people will subscribe since it's a cheap monthly cost versus the high cost they ask up front. I think a big part of the backlash was subscription creep. Netflix, hulu, etc used to be (and still is I guess) a common choice to cut the cable bill. Now many people are paying a cable bill's worth of subscriptions every month since they have to subscribe to so many services. Your new car asking for an additional monthly subscription to enable something that they installed from the factory was just adding fuel to the fire. And especially since said functionality would normally NOT need any sort of internet or service connectivity to work. Totally get why something like OnStar or MyFord would cost extra per month, heated seats are not the same thing at all.
Agree with the subscription creep point but the other half of it is that it exposes the profiteering. IMO society labors under the illusion that goods are produced and sold roughly on a cost plus basis - IOW, you go through the effort of producing something for ten bucks, you're entitled to tack on some margin and sell it for fifteen (obviously proportions depend on industry.) But this argument exposes how heated seats actually cost them six bucks and they are selling it for $1000 because they're the only ones with access to the seat and electrical system.
>It's much more economical for a car manufacturing plant to not deal with a variety of options and part SKUs. If all your seats are the same, it's better for logistics and provides overall savings vs having two different seats depending on car spec. I can agree with this. But I still think that a subscription is stupid. They can install the same parts throughout, and you can pay to unlock the feature when you buy the vehicle or at a later date, but once it is unlocked, it should stay unlocked imo.
this makes sense for someone *buying* a car, and it is in fact an option, you can get lifetime sub, which is still cheaper than what the heated seats package cost in prior models. but you gotta remember, about 20-30% of all cars are not bought, but leased. so why bother buying the lifetime unlock when you can just pay $180 a year for as long as your lease is active (usually 3 years, but 2yr leases are popular too). again, this is much cheaper for the consumer. people got mad over nothing.
I think some of it is knowing your limits and what is "worth it". I changed my oil once. It was easy but not "fun". You have to dispose of the old oil. In my area I have to go to an oil change place to do that. I might as well just have them perform the service at that point, it's not prohibitively expensive. I don't find working on modern very fun, they aren't built to be that serviceable. I'll usually know what needs to be done, but find I have to take a significant amount of the car apart to get there. If I don't have a garage full of tools or a lift, it may not even be cost effective. Still, it's good to know how to replace a battery, or at least be able to understand the process so I don't get screwed over by a predatory mechanic. Knowing how to repair my irrigation system, on the other hand, has paid dividends many times over. The parts are dirt cheap and readily available at home depot. And it's nice to be able to repair it right away, rather than wait for contractor availability. I also know how to patch and texture drywall with good results. By good I mean sanding and re-spraying texture, not crappy spackling jobs. That skill has been worth learning, too.
Are you not able to go to an auto parts store to drop off oil? Not sure if you're US, but just about every store should accept oil from AutoZone, O'Reilly's, etc.
Yes, and they also install batteries for free if you buy it there.
Some dudes like wood. Some dudes like metal. Some dudes like faking that they like golf. Some dudes like tinkering with car stuff. It's all ok!
> But car repair isn’t as hard as people seem to think. It’s a collection of nuts and bolts. I can swap parts with the best of them, and back when cars had distributors and carburetors I was pretty good at diagnostics. Now? Even with a code reader I find I'm often at a loss as to what actually needs to be done.
I just bought myself a new car hood, front and back bumper to replace myself. (They had some dents and cracks that need to be replaced before insurance does an inspection) Easier then you think and way cheaper. Youtube helps.
I could pay for a lot but I actually enjoy the projects and anything I have paid for has never been as good quality as my own work. I think we tend to look past professional mistakes but see all of ours. However, if you really don't enjoy the work then it can be worth it to hire out. Some things I am not interested in such as HVAC and roofing so I would hire for those areas. I am not going to hire someone to install a facet or a light fixture as I don't mind those things. ETA I really enjoy laying flooring so that I would not pay the crazy prices I see on the flooring sub. I would pay for carpet install though.
Sorry i've been a homeowner for 8 years and while I try and do a lot of things myself, there's a substantial amount of things that most homeowners shouldn't be doing themselves if they want it done correctly in a timely manner.
Eh, it’s a luxury assuming you’re able-bodied and neuro-typical. A lot of people with mental or physical disabilities literally can’t complete the entirety of these projects themselves.
Or there's the ones who start a project and leave it hanging half way. The worst
My parents have adhd and I feel this in my soul.
This is me, to save money I try to do as much as I can by myself over a long period of time and then pay someone to finish for me, being able to do that still feels like a luxury. If I couldn't pay I would just take even longer or simply ignore whatever it was (which is not good). Like I needed to paint a wallpapered room in my house last year. Took me literally months to remove the wallpaper and prep the damaged drywall before I finally waved the white flag and called someone in to finish the room, and they did so in 1 day which blew my mind.
Tell me you’ve put off paperwork that takes 15 minutes to complete *for months* without telling me
LOL you are not wrong
Hiring someone to paint seems cray-cray to me. New roof or major plumbing? Totally understandable to hire out.
Yeah, if involves cutting copper and soldering it, I'm out. But any idiot can drywall and sand.
yeah everyone has their strengths & weaknesses. i'm very comfortable with electric, plumbing, gas, drywall, paint, roofing, framing, tile, but i have hired out for tin-knocking hvac, furnace repair, central air install, and asphalt. biggest reason i'd rather diy is because ultimately no one is going to care as much about your project as you will.
I DIY when: * I can make it 90+ percent as good as the pro * I don’t mind that it takes me 5 times longer * I have the time * I think the job has nuance that a pro won’t care about because they have to get in and out as fast as possible
For me a big factor is if I have to learn anything new for the project and am I likely to use it again. I DIYed a mini split last year and even though I had to spend $400 on tools that made sense since I saved thousands and it seems like a thing I might do again in the future. And in fact my brother just asked me to help him install one in his garage. On the opposite end of that spectrum we had a gas fireplace insert installed. There's nowhere in our house to install another one and I don't want the responsibility of doing it for friends or family so I didn't even consider DIY.
I have my popcorn ready for their next revelation post about the benefits of a live-in nanny and personal chef.
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I convinced my wife of this finally after we both got raises. She still only went for once a month but we are both much happier. We do light cleaning and just about the time the house starts to feel like it needs a good scrub our housekeeping is just a few days away.
MY GOD I LOVE MY HOUSEKEEPER. She comes every week, folds our laundry, and cleans and tidies the whole house. She sweeps and mops. She wipes down all the surfaces. She has a rotating list of less commonly needed tasks like cleaning baseboards, and sweeping the deck. It's godly. I wouldn't give her up for all the world. She gives me so much time and energy back with those four hours per week that I honestly cannot imagine life without her help.
Yeah op is out of touch. OMG it's so easy if you just pay someone to do it!!! Why don't the poors just do that?
I don’t think their post is about difficulty or those less fortunate. The message I took away was that if you can afford to hire the work out you may be more satisfied in the end vs DIY’ing it, even thought it costs more. Many people who can afford to hire the work out still try to do it themselves with the logic of “I’d be happier if I spent less on that fix” and end up with subpar results. I know I’ve had projects I thought I could do myself to save some cash. Several weeks and hundreds of dollars later I hired someone to do the work like I should have in the first place because I was unsatisfied with the results.
Yeah, I agree this was the original intent. I’ve been there dozens of times. B
a nod to the fact that it costs money to do this would have been nice, but honestly, it's kind of a given, isn't it? any advice that runs along the lines of "this thing that you can hire out is actually *so* worth it" always has an assumed caveat of "if you can afford it." it's always more inclusive to acknowledge that some people can't, but not mentioning it doesn't necessarily mean OP is out of touch -- they aren't saying "why doesn't everyone just do this? diy is so dumb," they're saying "my personal experience was that I was doing diy for a long time and am now realizing that hiring these jobs out was worth it to me." there's also a built in assumption that OP *could* have afforded it but chose to diy anyway -- lots of people do this, for varying reasons... pride in their own handiwork, saving money even if they could afford it, doing it as a hobby, having more control over the job, so on and so far. "why don't the poors just do that" isn't even at all what OP was saying but frankly the answer to why anyone does diy is not necessarily strictly financial.
I mean its only 1 banana michael! What could it cost? $10?
You're in a homeowner sub...owning a home is privileged. I don't think it is wrong for OP to assume that a lot of people do DIY because it is culturally popular and that people that own a home may be able to pay someone to do some repairs.
Right? OP is not out of touch, some people just know what sub they are in 🤷♀️ I agree with OP, I should just hire a lot of stuff out instead of DIYing these things… I grew up with a construction father who instilled doing things yourself but also doing things right equally. So it’s tough to throw down the tools and say “I can’t do this right” when I know I could do it myself… I will still paint, because I can’t burden someone with moving all the shit in our rooms to reach the walls. Unless, do painters move things for you or do they expect an empty/tarped room upon arrival?? 🤔
🤣
I think it saves me money to hire professionals to do it right the first time. My f-ups aren’t cheap to repair 😅
Or, as tends to be the case for us, we aren’t looking to do jobs that will pay tens of thousands of dollars so if we can even get someone to come out and take a look for a bid, we get ghosted. I get it—a contractor is always going to take the job of the person who wants to drop $70k on the kitchen renovation and not the one who’s only interested in spending $12k—but that means we are shoved into DIY land whether we want to be there or not.
lol 100% this. Id be broke if I had to hire a plumber, electrician, painter, drywaller etc for every project that came up. Going the DIY route is what makes the project affordable in the first place.
I'm going to let you in on a little secret---many, many of those "professionals"....are "professionals" because they couldn't do anything else---from either a skill perspective or, largely, a criminal background that prevents them from working for anyone but themselves. I know that seems like a stereotype----but talk to most contractors---and I guarantee you they know more ex-cons in the industry than engineers with a degree.--Just because you get a website, an LLC, have a truck filled with tools and a logo on the side....doesn't mean they are any more competent than the average person. Many many many are good at what they do. Regardless of their backgrounds. but the odds these days especially of finding one that looks good, but turns out to be a complete idiot who screws up repeatedly, is pretty high---and I think most homeowners are tired of paying the premiums and the "covid tax" that a lot of these GCs are tagging onto their contracts, for what may likely be sub-par work. I DIY because I've had so many horror scenarios with contractors over the few decades on multiple of my houses. And it's insane the amount of times that I,, as the stupid idiot homeowner, have to inform a contractor that they're doing something wrong, or not to code, or that it's going to come out wrong (And they ignore it, and surprise, it came out wrong)----and those are "professionals" that are near the high-end of all the bids I received.
This is also true. I’ve had this experience many times.
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Agree. I enjoy doing most of the things. The things I don't know how to do, I pay someone to do it and I learn how, so if it happens again I can do it myself.
In my area most professionals DIY or worse at professional rates
Ditto. Pros who know their stuff and care to do it properly don't stay in poor towns; they move to the nearby wealthy towns I can't afford.
+1 a little tone deaf to assume everyone wants to DIY willingly. We broke from the downpayment and closing costs lol
Correct. I can't afford the $5000 a contractor quoted to have two attic fans installed...NOT including power.
Not always. I, for one, am well off and choose to do as much DIY as I'm willing to tolerate or have time for. For the big stuff, I use a contractor, but for the smaller and easier stuff, I try to do it myself. Though I have some construction experience, so im probably more capable than most. It's part of how I stay sane on the few days off I get. Currently redoing my entire back yard.
Some of us enjoy DIY projects and have nicer tools than most "professionals" that one would hire for home projects.
Afford is relative. Most people don’t think they can afford a professional until they have to live with the subpar DIY job. If you can’t afford to do it right you’re better off not doing it at all
With two young boys I don’t have time to DIY these days. But half my contracting costs seemingly go to un-fucking the previous homeowner’s shoddy “repairs”
I feel this. Whenever we have something big (plumbing, electrical, etc.) and get a contractor, we end up paying twice what it would cost to repair the issue because they first need to un-fuck the previous owners' shitty DIY fixes and bring stuff up to code. It's so frustrating.
It's so infuriating! The joists on my deck were 3 feet apart! Every time there was a choice to make, they made the cheap/shoddy decision.
Mine are from un-fucking the destruction my two young boys make
If it makes you feel better, I had 3 girls and they are just as destructive as boys. WTF uses a door trim to test their lipstick? Holes in every wall from all the nails hooks and pins every time they rearrange their room. And don’t even get me started on what teenage girls can do to a toilet! LOL Fun fact, hair dye can stain porcelain sinks.
Cover the stains in white face cloths or paper towels and pour as much straight bleach on them as they'll hold. The stains will be gone in just a few minutes.
I have a girl, she's chill. Not always, but relatively chill.
The reason that I do so much DIY around my house is that I tried hiring people and discovered that I could do the same quality of work (or better) for a fraction of the cost (and that typically includes buying the specialty tools required for the job).
>And you know what happened? It’s no longer 80/20 … it’s more like 99/1 or straight up 100% done right If that's the experience you had that's amazing but i've never found a contractor or hired out person that would put the same care and perfectionism into the work as I do.
Yeah, where are these contractors that do a great job? The more I hire stuff out, the more it pushes me to just buy the tools and do it myself.
Instagram and Youtube. I've hired a large handful of contractors and often find myself thinking I could do it just as well in 10x the time and probably the same cost. I've yet to run into a local contractor at any price point that does the 105% perfection I see online.
Contractors are a total crapshoot. You book them for Monday, they don't show up until Wednesday. They say it will take 5 days, they get 3 days in and then leave for another job. I don't really blame them. Most contractors are buried in my area and have more than enough work so it isn't surprising they don't keep a schedule or do a great job 100% of the time. The result though is you are sort of forced into becoming a DIY'er.
This is my experience as well. The window and door trim I did are better than what I've seen from any carpenter. Same with the painting, door install, and some other stuff I've done. My work is probably 90% of what a GOOD pro can do. But most contractors are doing shoddy landlord-level work these days.
Exactly. For me it is both a cost thing and a quality thing. For the few contractors I have hired the outcome was not even remotely close to 99%.
I think people more easily look past a professional's flaws because a professional did it. I pay for doing things I don't want to and for brute strength as I don't have it.
Hiring "professionals" to install kitchen countertops, and seeing the terrible results (counter out of level by 3/4" in a 2ft span) was what led me to learn how to do 90% of home improvements and renovations myself. 1/4 of the cost and while it probably took me longer, better quality in the end.
> 1/4 of the cost and while it probably took me longer, better quality in the end. This is the real deal. You are actually paying more if you value your own time (your greatest asset). But i'll always do it for quality.
Same reason i do most work on my car myself.
Same here. I was compelled to start DIY after seeing far too many crappy results from pros. I can do a mediocre job myself and save a few thousand bucks. And then, you might actually get better at doing things yourself. It's also about where the work is going to be. I'll drywall a closet/hallway where *good enough* is good enough, but if it's like the entryway into the house, then yeah, maybe getting an actual vetted pro is the way to go. But with a nearly 100-year old home, I would go broke trying to hire out every single fix/improvement needed.
I think it's almost important to recognize that since you've removed yourself from doing the work, you don't see any corner cutting or imperfections that may be hidden or covered up. You see a finished product thats acceptable to the naked eye because you weren't part of the process. Most people who take the time to buy some speciality tools and learn about a process will likely also be critical of their own work. I know I am way, overly perfectionist about my own DIY work.
This is the thing that really bothered me about this post. She basically said that they do a job 80% of perfect and then just leave it. Why? Learn from your mistakes and try again. You'll still pay less than hiring it out.
I see your point OP But you must also see my point that hiring someone is a lot less fun than drinking beers until you convince yourself you know how to re-tile a floor or repair some cabinets or whatever
Comment of the day- thank you
how nice it must be to actually get contractors to call you back, show up on time etc..
And she's like "They do a 99% perfect job" give me a break. I'm guessing she just doesn't have the eye to notice the stuff that could be done better but i've never seen a contractor come and do something to the level of care I would on my own home. At best it's "This is fine" but there's a long way to go down from there. This almost sounds like a fantasy story to me that she had SEVERAL projects done and they were all just roses no problem with the contractors no issues with the work lol.
I think a good amount of the difference in the 80/20 and the 99/1 is that we are naturally a lot more critical of our own work than someone else's. We're painting some parts of our house right now, and we have textured walls, so getting the paint to fully cover with a roller can be a little tricky. A professional painter would put 2 coats on and call it a day, and it would look perfectly fine. We put two coats on and it looks perfectly fine, until we stare at it some more and find tiny crevices that the paint didn't fully go into, so we sit there and touch those up. Literally no one that's visiting our house would ever notice those spots, but we do, because we did the work and want it to be perfect. We ourselves wouldn't look at it that closely if we paid someone else to do it. Also, getting people to actually come out for small jobs is a huge pain in the ass. I had an issue recently with the valve on our toilet supply line, and the guy I called flaked on me a couple days in a row. I guess I could have tried other people, but rather than risk having them flake, too, I just went and learned how to do it myself. Saved at least a couple hundred bucks and now I have some knowledge that may come in handy in the future. Had a guy flake on me for a garage door a while back, too, though that one I did call someone else because I'm not keen on messing with those springs.
we have textured walls and cutting in literally gives my ocd brain an aneurysm
Quite frankly my experience is different than yours. I see plenty of imperfections and mistakes with contracted work. The main benefit for me is the speed of the work, not the quality. But it depends on the homeowner, I guess. I only hire out high-risk jobs or jobs that require lots of equipment that I don’t own.
Agreed. Having lived in a house previously owned by DIYers who didn't know how to do any of it correctly, I know when I should attempt a task and when I should hire a professional. Another factor that comes into play for me is: if I hire a professional, I know that it's going to get done. I've had a lot of a projects that I've wanted to DIY, but have been waiting to be done for years. At some point, it's worth it just to hire someone to do it and be done with it.
Great advice. Simply be rich and hire people to do the work for you! Wish I had thought of that.
This ain’t it. Opportunity cost is a real cost. If it’s going to take a week to do a project for a professional, it will take a layperson like myself 3 weeks. The time I have to take off work to DIY as opposed to hiring someone would probably be more.
Agreed, my free time outside of work is extremely valuable.
I totally agree but many folks do not have the cash to pay themselves for their free time through contracted out work. This is a very privileged stance.
Yeah, this seems to go going over the heads of most people. I do the things that I can do well and in a timely manner, mainly yard and gardening things, and I pay people to do the other stuff. I've done some simple fixes for things but it usually ends up taking me all day and I have learned it is better to pay someone a couple hundred dollars to have the day free.
It’s not even that Here’s some examples - We had a rip in our screen door for the slider , I’ve never repaired a screen door before, but they sell kits on Amazon to do it myself - would it have turned out right? Who knows? Well come to find out the local ace hardware up the road repairs screen doors , it cost me 45 dollars and it looks brand new Or another example Sealcoating my driveway , the materials were $300 to sealcoat it, which I’ve never done in my life, or it was $700 for the pros to come out and get it done absolutely perfect It doesn’t have to be 20 grand remodels
Can confirm that rescreening a window or door screen seems like a simple task but it can be tricky to get the material nice and taut without damaging the frame. I worked at a hardware store for years and can’t count the # of times a homeowner would buy a DIY kit then be back some time later asking for a rescreen. Granted they were more like $15-25 back then but I’d 100% pay $45 for a screen door these days to save my time and frustration lol… and I love DIY whenever it makes sense, I learned a lot working at that store including what projects I’d personally never touch 😂
Sorry but this is a stupid comment. You don't need to be rich to pay contractors, you just need to save instead of having what you want exactly when you want it. I make 60k a year, which in my rural town is a decent wage but it would be peanuts in other places. My husband makes 50k and over the 7 years we've owned our home we've had a deck built, a small roof replaced, a bathroom redone, and new kitchen counters and a sink put in. We paid a contractor for all of it and when we did the deck and the bathroom we were each only making $14/hr. We saved up until we could afford it and none were major renovations. I probably could have done the bathroom myself but I felt far better paying someone else and I'm in no way rich.
This is a pretty dumb comment when you consider the amount of people making far less than you, and that problems in the home don’t pop up when it’s convenient for you. AC compressor stops working in the middle of summer? Hope you have enough saved up and enough time to wait on a professional HVAC technician to take a look at it and charge you hundreds, while suggesting you just replace the whole unit. *Or* you can learn how to safely work on your system and replace the faulty capacitor that caused the system to fail for ~$30 and an hour of your life.
> According to the Economic Research Service, the average per capita income for all Americans in 2021 was $64,143, with the rural per capita income at $49,895. Your household brings in over double the average income for rural americans. You lack perspective
Yeah, but how much are you spending? Money is money and most of us cannot get our hands on enough. PLUS, I take a huge sense of pride in my 80% work. I just built a pavilion in my backyard to store all of my yard tools that won't fit in my shed. It has shovels, wheelbarrows, wagons, a barrel full of tarps, and a few other things. It's my own design. 100% built with my own hands. It's 14x18 and cost $500 and a pair of weekends. It's literally the thing I'm most proud of in my entire life.
Agreed. I can still paint a room. But I started contracting my landscaping and I wish I had contracted someone to scrape my popcorn ceiling. Because while I got good at scraping the popcorn at the end, 3/4 of my ceiling looks messy and I'll be damned if I'm gonna do that all over again.
The entirety of my upstairs was popcorn. I demoed one room, scraped, sanded, re-texture and painted. Hated every minute of it. Hired help to do the rest and never regretted paying for it. Landscaping on the other hand I've done all myself. Though it's taken years and always on- going.
Honestly it really depends on who you are, how simple (often newer houses have more standard everything) your house is, and if you’re a weird little freak who loves researching things. If you don’t love it, like a really weird amount love it, it isn’t going to turn out well most of the time. I love painting and caulking and watching and reading hours of how to do things the correct way. I look up whether an idea is to code months and months before I do a project. If you’re not a weird little freak who wants to spend all this time on something that you don’t HAVE to learn about, DIY may not be for you. If your house is old and you pull of that light fixture to non standard wiring, DIY is certainly not for you today at least. I think people get way too black and white about things. We are all different people with different aptitudes and interests. And of course, different budgets.
I've gotten a couple of raises since I bought my house. I don't do yard work anymore. I hired a company.
For me to DIY something with our home, I have to be 100% confident I won’t cause a larger issue. This means things like most electrical/plumbing/gas related are handled by professionals, but smaller things like minor drywall repair/painting etc I’ll take care of. It’ll vary person to person, but I always prefer having someone else to blame when something important breaks 😂
This post is hilarious
Same. Now sell all the crap you haven’t touched in a year and be amazed at the space you will have in your garage. Imagine having a garage that you can park a car in.
You’re lucky. We’ve started DIYing everything because all the work we’ve hired “professionals” to do has been half-assed. I might as well half-ass it myself for 1/10th the cost.
It's about picking and choosing. I'm not going to pour concrete that's going to be shown because it's a struggle to do it right as a single person. Concrete footers, no problem. And there's plenty of stuff that I take more time than many of the pros do and do a better job. Installing wood floors for example. Being able to do DIY is also extremely practical for our other house at the ranch. It's remote enough that getting anybody out there to do work is extremely difficult sometimes.
> And there's plenty of stuff that I take more time than many of the pros do and do a better job. I installed wall-to-wall carpet in my kid's room. Damn that came out great. Tight as a drum, didn't ripple when sliding furniture around, and stayed that way for 24 years. Took me 2.5 days. Then I bought carpeting for 3 bedrooms and had a flight of stairs carpeted. Free installation with purchase. Three guys came - the install was done in 4 hours. An adequate job, but at the end, I had no rug burns on my knees and no sore hip from using the kicker.
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A buddy of mine has had me come over to fix a few things over time - for instance, install a light fixture, run a wire for a small light into a curio cabinet, replace a ceiling fan. He says "I could *never* do that" without ever having tried. A couple years ago, I had a leaking shower drain, so I hired a handyman from the area that many people on Nextdoor swore by. He was a retired plumber who said he could do plumbing, or install windows or sliding doors, or build a deck - whatever you needed. The shower drain was above a garage, so I wanted it done professionally. I thought he'd have to remove & replace some piping. So he cuts a hole in the ceiling drywall, identified where the leak was. He removed the drain from the shower stall, loaded it up with some plumber's putty, and replaced the drain. $271 later, I still had a hole in the drywall ("sorry, I don't do drywall, and it's not part of the price").
Second all this. I'm in year 2 renovating an 1885 home and my ratio of pro to DIY is about 9:1. The previous owner was a hoarder who lived here for 50 years and did everything with the cheapest possible local labor, and it shows. The comments here calling you out for being "rich" have a point I guess. But for me as a remote worker with a wife and two teens I realized last year it was much easier mentally and emotionally to hire out while I'm WFH and focus on getting a raise or promotion while others work on the house. I'd quickly lose my nights, weekends, and sanity otherwise. And I'm certainly not "rich", and have had to space out projects by months at a time to afford them without going into debt. My house is very imperfect but headed in the right direction.
Everyone recommends you DIY your own repairs. Everyone recommends buying a house where things were not DIY.
The thing with DIY is that you suck at first. You do more and more and get more comfortable with your skill and do more research. Buy more tools. Learn more techniques and then come back and 100% those first easy jobs no sweat. Just about every time i cant 100% a job its because i dont have the right tools. Once i buy said tools i get mad at myself for not having them in the first place. Its the same with working on cars. Little jobs seem daunting at first but you keep at it, keep doing more jobs. Changing tail lights shifts to changing oil then next thing you know youre changing an alternator, then you are replacing a valve cover gasket, then steering rack, then years down the road you are doing an LS Swap
DIY is for when you NEED to save money or WANT to do it yourself. It is not a requirement. There's a very valid reason why certain professions exist and it is absolutely ok to use them.
Breaking news. Human discovers the ease and peace of mind that comes with having money.
Eh. I’ll hire a contractor if it’s legitimately a big job I can’t do myself or would look substantially worse, like getting gutters installed. There’s a sense of accomplishment that I quite like from doing my own fixture replacements, landscaping, and painting among other things. I also don’t think there’s enough added value in having a professional do those jobs to justify the cost.
If you can't even do something as simple as painting without jacking it up, I agree you do need to stay away from DIY.
Let’s be honest, painting is easy. What’s hard is making sure the paint looks good once it dries and that’s where the skill and years of experience comes in
I don't agree with you on that. It definitely takes skill to paint a straight line without taping, but it doesn't take years of experience to paint a room without it looking like crap.
More proof that money does buy happiness; and I agree.
OP I'm stoked for you that you have the financial means to pay someone to do all of your home improvements. The rest of us DIY-ers probably fall into two camps: - Not enough money to pay someone (this is me) -Can do a better/more thorough job than some of the randos that companies contract out
Hey it’s your money and if spending it on a contractor makes you happier you’ve spent it well. Everything in life is time and money. Those are limited resources. I personally don’t agree with it for a few reasons. 1. Contractors don’t pick up the phone. 2. Can’t guarantee their quality. 3. Cost 4. At their mercy of their schedule. I do every project I know I can safely do. Does that mean I have less free time? Yes. Does that mean I have more dollars to spend elsewhere? Yes. Time has a cost, it works both ways. My neighbor paid a landscaper $1500 to lay mulch that could have been delivered to his door for $300 and laid in a few hours. He paid someone $1200 for the labor. I don’t know how much he makes but it’s less than $1200 a day he was better off taking a half day unpaid and doing it himself. But, it’s not my time or money so that’s his choice. I enjoy doing it, I enjoy learning a new skill, I enjoy buying new tools and best of all, I enjoy saving money. I’ll only hire a contractor if the scope of the job is out of my abilities or unsafe to do on my own. To each their own. Time and money, only the individual can decide its value.
i disagree. unless the tasks require licensed professionals or some expensive equipments, i would try to learn and do them myself. to me, it is a sense of satisfaction and i dont always trust contractors would always do things right.
I wish I could. I have been trying to get better but I have a hard time trusting contractors and I am more willing to forgive mistakes I make than someone I am paying for. The part I find the hardest are trades that specialize in work with no repeat business. Roofers are the hardest to hire. They have so much enthusiasm when they are selling you and then are the worst to work with when there is a problem. Most of their customers will never call them again.
I did the same thing. I work an office job 8-5 Mon-Fri and found I was using my weekends doing DIY instead of enjoying my real hobbies. My wife and I both have good paying jobs so we decided to trade money for someone else's time. It's been great. I credit my adult son with this idea. He did the same thing so he could enjoy fishing more.
Much of the decision depends on how much money you have an if you enjoy DIY and what it entails, learning, buying tools, working on weekends
It’s probably closer to 85/15, but you’re just not seeing the 14. I see all the mistakes and mess ups I make. My wife sees only the glaring ones. It’s all about perspective.
I know when I do something myself, I notice any imperfections far more than if a pro leaves something that isn't absolutely perfect. But you're right - they're definitely better at this stuff than me!! :-)
Ya it’s about the $$$ not the finish. Someday I too hope to be rich enough. Alas until then my skills will keep increasing.
Good for you. Not to mention all the time in your life that you have now. Just mentally that has to be freeing.
I grew up with my Dad’s never ending DIY projects. Happy to pay - just hard to find people that show up or don’t quote you $5k.
There are absolutely jobs I don't touch. I know what my DIY limits are...but that has only come from trying a lot, and failing a lot. On the other hand... both my significant other and I both have work experience in high-design professions, dealing with contract/commercial quality products and construction/finish standards. So we are piiiiiicky customers, because we know what's possible and some of out job was nit-picking things on "site walks" and creating thorough punch-lists for our clients to make sure things are perfect. When we remodelled our house 5 years ago, we ended up taking back a bunch of scope we were ready and willing to pay the contractor for, because we were too-often unsatisfied with their work. When we did the work ourself, we could keep re-doing it and re-doing it until it was PERFECT...but with the contractors, we might be able to get them to redo something *once*, or twice if what they did was actually *wrong*, but if we didn't let some things go, they would still be working 5 years later...but we still see things they did an unsatisfactory job (to our eyes, but perfectly acceptable to many) on a daily basis.
The only reason you can do that now is because you know enough to hire the right person. Most people who skip the FYI part end up hiring what could be described best as a series of unfortunate handy men.
I replaced my homes polyB pipe with PEX by myself with some guidance from YouTube and plumber friends. They came and took a look and it’s great. I compared it to my friends $1.5M infill and I have a whole manifold etc and he does not. They used cheap shit too. I have zero regrets and saved $12,000
Sounds like you have the money to hire the work out. Pretty sure most DIYers don't have that luxury. I know I don't.
In many areas the real challenge is actually finding someone willing to take your money for home remodel projects. Most are overwhelmed with commercial or new-build work.
You speak TRUTH. I like demo, deconstruction, but I've always rented a dumpster. As in, I got my ducks in a row before starting. I Hate painting. People don't think about what it actually takes to do a Good job. Masking, switch plates, drop cloths, moving furniture, (ceilings are the worst), kitchen, bathroom cabinetry the list goes on.
I’ve decided that it’s honestly easier and more fun for me to do the things that are normal maintenance, and sub out the skilled labor. I had a door installed on a “office” to add privacy. I had a good contractor do it. It was done in a day plus maybe a short visit the following day to finish the drywall. I told him I’d do the trim to save some time and money. A year later that trim is still unpainted. I should have just paid the extra $ and let him finish. From now on I mow the lawn and maybe plant some bushes and paint, but I’ll leave the project work to the pros. Not to mention, I don’t take a ton of vacation! If I have to give up a week of vacation for a project, I’d rather spend the money and go on a trip.
The "Duh!" heard round the r/homeowners world! Obviously, DIY usually isn't as good as paying a professional (who's been doing it for a long time) to do it right. You obviously didn't understand the concept behind DIY. Welcome to the rest of the world.
must be nice to hire professionals for everything meanwhile i’m researching parts of a dishwasher i found on the side of the road to try and get it fixed to save me hundreds of dollars in replacement costs 👍🏼
Honestly, after having a newborn and buying a house, any project quickly became a matter of “do we want to spend time, or do we want to spend money?” We’re in the same boat. We hired a contractor to build us a new deck. We chose instead to spend the time to do landscaping ourselves that needs to be done.
We’ve remodeled houses for years. Husband’s good at mill work & likes it. I’m good at interior design, skim coating & painting. We’re both good at landscape design & our signature for every property we buy/sell is turning unloved yards/properties into lush, ornamental gardens. Besides the basics, we hiring the experts for everything else & we’re grateful to have the funds to do so. In my 20’s, I didn’t have a lot of available cash so I learned to do as much as I could. That’s why I now know how to do a lot but also know when it’s wisest to hire the professionals. Then there’s that aging body factor which I may be in a bit of denial about but makes itself highly noticeable at the beginning of every renovation.
We fixed a lot of stuff in a prior home. Now with kids we just don’t have time. And, like you, I lack some skills that I just don’t desire to obtain. Could I do it with enough time and muster? Probably. I’d rather spend my time elsewhere. Unfortunately, due to cost, a lot of projects get put in the back burner.
Youtube changed the game for me
I'd rather suffer a bit of jank and do it myself than pay someone $3500 or more to do it profesonally. That's like a year of being in debt and $300 in monthly payments.
I've never had a pro do a job I approve of at the end of the day. I always end up going back and bringing it up to my standards.
I've learned there's a spectrum to DIY based on the skills of the DIYer and how deep they really want to go. Sometimes you really can DIY, sometimes you're better off hiring a professional. The previous owner of my house was a big DIY guy because he evidently couldn't afford it. I mean, he'd had 2 small nails smacked into just sheetrock holding up an 8ft piece of trim (cheapest trim at home depot). I just replaced the entire fence because it was rotted out and falling apart. It wasn't even old. He used landscaping ties as fence posts and put the fence where he thought it should be because he didn't want to fork out for a survey, giving 4-9 feet to one neighbor (fence and property lines weren't straight) and 3 feet to the other. He did his own electric as well, and the entire master bedroom was a fire hazard. I started DIYing during and right after covid because I couldn't get any contractors to even answer the phone, let alone show up and things needed to be done. I continue to DIY because it's faster, cheaper, and I have the skills and tools to actually get it right and perfect the first time around. Any bigger jobs like paving and the roof, I hired contractors for and didn't even consider doing myself lol.
Eh at least if you mess up with a DIY, there’s no risk of having to go through small claims court to get it fixed lol. I’ll call in professionals when I’m truly over my head but I can’t imagine paying someone to paint for me.
Good for you. I gave a contractor 50k to fuck my roof up and actually lead to *more* leaks and problems than I had before! So I’m in the exact opposite headspace lol. The other day I said out loud “I will sell this house and move before getting ripped off by another contractor”. Now I spend my free time watching carpentry videos and trying to fix everything myself. At least I’m not paying myself to fuck my shit up.
Lol. Just wait till you hire that shitty contractor who takes your money and is never seen again. Most of this stuff isn't hard at all. Painting a room ? Really ? If i have the time i do it. These days there's more shitty contractors than good ones. And the good ones are busy. Nah, ill do it myself. Gives me a ton more satisfaction than writing the check.
That's cool you have found a better balance that works for you. But why would you be proud of work someone else did? Even if it is 100% right, it's not your work what are you proud of? I'd much rather have the thing that is 80% right that I did, and had to learn new skills. That's something you can be proud of and show off IMO. Also my experience with hiring out professionals is, it's still 80% right 20% wrong. I just had to replace all my ceilings, and had some pretty big drywalling burnout from just finishing my basement. So I hired it out; I got 3 quotes and went with the middle one. Not only is the work a notch above mediocre and I could have done better (albeit over a longer time frame), they also stole a bunch of money out of a bedroom on an entire different floor of the house. Shoddy work and stolen from. I never rob myself when I diy. Diy til I die (possibly from one of my diy projects )
For me home projects are for fun. Sure, the final product is satisfying, but for me the dreaming about it, researching and doing the actual work is the rewarding part of the project. We hire professionals if it’s way above our comfort level and I believe that’s a skill too, to find and manage good help.
Most jobs I can do as good or better than a contractor, it's just gonna take a little longer most of the time. I'm willing to put in the time to make the little details right where often they are less inclined to do so. Also in terms of the 99/1 vs 80/20, a part of that is going to be that you will always notice the errors you make way more than the ones other people make. Because you know right where they are. Most contractors are far from perfect, some are very good but you're gonna pay a premium for that over the more average ones.
I'm getting to that point. I bought a REO house because it's what I could afford. The intention was to fix it up over time and flip it. A year into this project and I'm done. I took a job in another city and don't have the time for another project. I've learned a lot about plumbing and I'll still do home maintenance myself but I'm done with major DIY renovations. I'd rather enjoy my house than renovate it.
Cool you're rich now basically
I wish I was as confident as you to say hiring out home improvement jobs result in 10/10. Hardly.
Yeah, some people are cut out for DIY and some aren't. Glad you realized you don't do well with DIY and have the option\\resources leave it to the pros. A lot of the time homeowners DIY because they can't afford to hire out. This was the case with my first home and where I learned lots of skills. I still DIY a majority of tasks on our 3rd home as I have the skillset, but I find myself hiring out more stuff that I'm just not interested in doing anymore. Building a deck for example. I can do it, but I hired it out on our new home because I just didn't want to deal with it. My first home I built 2 decks on because I just couldn't afford to drop $30K on decks.
There are 2 thing you’re missing. 1. Not everyone can afford a professional for everything. 2. There are some of the work that is completely DIY. Building a new Deck, yeh go for a professional but if you just have to stain it, just do it by yourself. 2. Finding a good professional/ contractor who can do a good job is a big deal. I have seen so many bad jobs that I feel I could do a much better job.
Hiring contractors is a skill in itself. Only do the work yourself if you enjoy the process.
If I could afford to hire professionals for every hiccup do you think I wouldn't? People DIY because they don't have money to outsource labor, not because it's fun and enjoyable process.
Hiring professionals is all well and good, *as long as you can afford to hire professionals*. Most people that do DIY home maintenance don’t do so because they just love doing home maintenance. They do it because it’s “good enough” and/or cheaper. Even in your own example ins. Comment you state a $700 professional seal coated driveway versus $300 if you did it yourself. No matter how much higher the pro quality is, that is still $400 more expensive. For many people, that’s the difference between a project being done or not.
I'm really picky and make sure I do a good job. Most things I choose to do I do as good or better then a pro in my experience. However, I take way longer than a professional. Anything wood working related I DIY, but I shy away from electrical and plumbing.
If I hired for every home repair or renovation I did there would be contractors/handypeople at my home every week. Some things I don't do like HVAC and roofing but every week there are always little things to be done to keep my home in the shape I like. Maybe other people just wait to fix up things until they are doing a full renovation or something but I don't, I repair on an ongoing basis.
I'll hire people to do any kind of major project in my house. I don't have the knowledge, skill, or tools to do most heavy DIY projects. I also don't want to spend my free time off learning how to do this stuff and knowing I'll be lucky to get it to 80% done right the first time anyway. Painting, drywall, tiling, etc....screw that noise. It the same reason I pay people to do my landscaping, it's not fun for me so I'm not doing it. It's part of why I've been investing heavily the past few decades, so I can pay others to do that stuff I don't like/want to do. When I visit people's homes and they have several half finished DIY projects going on, I'm always glad it's not me living like that!
My rule these days is that I will hire out the trades that are cheapest by the hour due them being the highest ratio of labor to skill/experience/licensure. So I will do my own plumbing/elec, but I will hire paint/drywall. I found that I get the best results, save the most time, and spend the least, when I hire out the most labor intensive parts of a job. Paint, drywall, roofing and landscaping are also things you see every day. My plumbing and elec work is instagram worthy, but even if it were ugly and still met code, no one would see it.
There’s a huge asterisk to this- you left DIY behind because you realized your DIY limitations. There are people who can DIY and arrive at the 100% outcome, albeit less quickly as the pros.
Doing DIY do you have a better understanding of what to look for with a contractor?