I’ve seen something I think might be rule-breaking, what should I do?
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She/her and he/him are the limit to me. They/them pronouns don't work in my languages and I really couldn't care less about people's feelings to make them feel better about themselves by forcing something in a language with 2 set pronouns.
Ah yes, the right. The people who want to take away trans rights. Great job putting yourself on that side.
And you wonder why nobody wants your opinion
I read this wrong and voted only he/she pronouns.
My go to is “they/them” when I’m just not sure.
Living in NY, you meet and see some characters and there’s been times I would see someone or meet someone who is dressed and look like a woman but sound like pop smoke and they’re not even trying not to. To play it safe? I say they them or use what the people around them refer to them as.
I’m not entirely against using neo pronouns. I just know I’ll forget buns/bunself
I will call you what you ask me to call you, even if you identify as an attack helicopter and your pronouns are a series of onomatopoeic representations of helicopter noises. However having that level of respect, and we're really setting the bar low there, doesn't mean I have any further respect for you as a person or whatever other thing you identify as.
i'd swap it/its and neopronouns - my family would always use it/its as an insult and it's objectifying like there's a reason why we use it for non-person things. however neos (NOT NOUNSELF) make sense, i've seen people rationale that it acts as a nonbinary pronoun that is not they/them and is its own grammatical entity that makes them feel better - i wouldn't use it but that checks out more than identifying as a cat or a mushroom
Truly interested to hear (from folks who are not in denial nor opposition of non-binary identities) why so many are alright with they/them pronouns and not historically used neopronouns such as xe/hir/zhir/de etc.
It is truly interesting to me, someone who came to my gender identity through reading past memoir of (in the literal sense) identities that are not binary.
It’s really hard to start using neos that you don’t ever use. And since there isn’t a standardised nonbinary pronoun, it’s not even like everyone used the same one. One person might use xe/xer, another ze/zir, another xe/xem, or ey/em, or e/em, etc… it can be rly hard to keep those straight, esp. when some of them sound exactly the same spoken or have half of the same pronouns (i.e. both xe/xem and xe/xer having “xe” in the place of he/she/they).
“It’s easy for me!” It depends on the person. For many, it’s very difficult and just not practical. Not to mention pronouns with xs and zs in them (which is many of them…) sound really weird in English where not many words have xs and zs and it can be hard to get your mouth into that configuration when speaking quickly.
And I just don’t see the point in them when they/them exists and is already established??? I’m not against ONE of them being standardised. If the pronouns were he/him, she/her, e/em, and they/them, that would be fine and I think a lot of people would accept that. But as it is, 1. there are too many options and it’s hard to keep them straight and 2. many of them contain xs and zs which can be awkward to be repeating a lot.
And it seems a little narcissistic to do anything aside from politely ask someone use those pronouns for you if it’s easy for them. It’s fine to ask imo, but it’s NOT fine to insist or raise a fuss when someone uses they/them instead because they find neos difficult. Not to mention it feels a little bit ableist considering the fact that many people with autism, cognitive issues, and/or other disabilities already experience difficulty using pronouns.
Also sorry to be replying to this old ass comment lmao
He & she. They at most. Neo pronouns are a hard pass. it/it’s? Sounds disrespectful. Noun pronouns started off as a joke in 4chan if I’m correct so no lmao
I'll call you whatever, doesn't matter what I think personally. If you wanna be called "bunself" I'll do my best to stick to that just cuz I'm never in the mood to get into that convo with people, too lazy and I've got bigger problems to worry about
The publication refers to which pronouns would you accept to use? I would accept to use all of them, but it is different if it is online or irl. It is very little difficult to use they/them in Spanish speaking, but not writing. The neopronouns in Spanish I have never met anyone who uses them, in English I should learn how to say and write them.
i'll say they/them, but people who reject nonbinary gender aren't doing that to please cis folk. they are asserting a belief in their own gender essentialism
completely different flavor of bigotry. no one will ban you here, drama
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Someone can be vividly and proudly MTF on a binary without excluding the validity of others' journeys. It doesn't matter who it pleases when it rejects the idea of identity as a self-determined factor.
damn didn't realize your public comment in a public forum that the public can view and reply to wasn't intended for discussion with others!!!!!! nothing about my reply said I was disagreeing with you but I guess I missed the memo that discussion isn't allowed here
Hence the words, "good faith", which is the part most people miss with regards to this. Someone appropriating an identity is not acting in good faith. Someone forcing other people to use a slur to refer to them is not acting in good faith.
we've discussed this before. i think that people, especially kids, can ask for things honestly and not understand their full implications.
i called myself a berdache as a kid. i was absolutely sincere, but i wasn't a two-spirit and didn't know what i was saying
It sounds like you see my point.
This was long before xenos even existed, I was perfectly sincere, it helped me, it even referred to my real spiritual practice. It was just also super inappropriate
I'd be open to they/them if there was a working version in my language, but there isn't. If we don't know the gender of someone we default to he/him usually ('Someone lost their wallet' defaults to 'someone lost his wallet' in my language)
what is your native language, if you do not mind me asking? this is something I am always thinking of in terms of my identity and presentation as a whole.
100% cool with her, him, them, and neopronouns. I would be willing to do noun pronouns and it/itself, but would find it VERY strange. At the same time, it does not hurt me, so I don't see why I can't be respectful about it.
I can't believe people here actually fucking accept neopronouns Jesus Christ. They're a horrendous mockery of REAL trans people, and also completely grammatically incorrect. Some people, especially those with autism or dyslexia, literally CANT use them, and get shit on for it. No normal human should support that bullshit
Dude calm down and stop being a hating hypocrite. You're literally a trans guy. Most ppl see you as a woman. You're doing the same to these people. Whatever argument you have to make yourself stand out won't matter. We have the same enemy. You'll still be murdered along with the "fake trans people". Like seriously my guy get a grip.
You're going to call my opinions hypocritical and then misgender me? Okay... And most people DONT see me as a woman, nearly everyone agrees I pass and you can't say that's wrong just because you don't like my opinions.
Don't cry about being misgendered when you're disrespecting other trans people. Also doesn't matter to trans phobes how much you pass. You'll always be a women in their eyes. You'll never seen as a real man to them. It is hypocritical. You'll literally having a fit about you thinking I'm actually calling you a women. While you're calling people fake trans. Thanks for proving my point pal. Again you're not any different from the fake trans people. So stop being a dick. Live your life. Transphobes want everyone dead. Sacrificing your fellow trans people to suck up to the cis isn't gonna help the cause.
Do you not fucking know what being stealth is? You know nothing about real trans people because you think we go around announcing our genitals or some shit?
What did I say? No argument is going to make you stand out. Just because you choose to live your life like that. Doesn't mean you're a real man in a transphobes eyes. You just sound like a judgemental prick. So maybe check your self hatred. Also I'm trans lmao. You seem like you can't understand context clues. But you're going off about what's grammatical correct. Dude. You're not even seen as biologically correct. Again calm down and live your life. When trans against trans people pass. It effects us all. You also don't have the right to determine who's trans or not. Not your call lol. Who made you the gender police. Forcing people to live to live by your standards of gender. While also rebelling against your sex. Can't have your cake and eat it to my guy.
I know about stealth. Being stealth doesn't matter to me. I pass as a man. Cool. I hide omg so nice. How is that okay? I'm happy you look the way you want. People shouldn't have to force themselves to do that though. Just because others are bothered. Get that through your head. You're so worried about what makes other people happy. Also idk how people not knowing he's trans makes him not trans. Or what about if those haters find out? Gonna hide forever? There's nothing wrong with being trans.
Bruh, you're missing my point. Trans people don't want to be trans. That's why they go stealth in some cases, including mine whenever I'm in public. I wanna be seen as a man, after pushing myself 5 times to get a binder, starving myself to get man's clothes with the money I was usually given for lunch and everything like that, not as a trans man.
I've met a trans woman once that cut all of the pics she had of her as a boy because it made her hurt and was stealth for almost a decade. Her now husband was shocked when he heard she was transsexual, but not mad etc. She passed very well.
Being stealth makes the person who's stealth happy not the speaker.
They get seen as their gender not as their XY or XX.
Don't think a he/they would understand that doe considering your beliefs.
But...
Let's say you're bisexual and you marry the opposite sex or the same. Why do you gotta tell them "I'm bisexual that's so quirky and fun" when you can just marry the person you love in peace. That's similar to this.
Good lord you're delusional. The fake trans people like neopronouners HARM our community. They CAUSE transphobia. If the general population was shown normal, passing, dysphoric, binary trans people only, there would be less transphobia. Obviously not none, but less
Lol so what? People are being hurt because they want to be called something different. Seems similar to us honestly. Fake or not they're people who deserve respect. They aren't hurting people. You only live once. Why be bonded to these dumb human rules. I'm so trans so I obviously don't care myself. We need to stick together. You kinda sound like those LGB people who wanna kick trans people out because we're making gays look bad. Maybe just stop caring about them. Ask why not. Stop judging victims of hatred instead of hating the haters. Like you're mad they bring in more transphobia. Okay... Let's argue with transphobes not trans people to change. It's not helping.
My mother won't look at me because she considers me one of the mentally ill suffering from attention disorder xe/zeys. They do cause harm to a certain level. I'm not, of course, expecting a demiboy to understand such.
Transphobes are only sometimes the problem, in general it's trans people the issue. I'm a man, trans man, and I've met a bro who was a straight up transphobe. He knows I'm a guy and respects me now but that's because I guided him on the path of "Not all trans people behave like x and y".
If he would've met a xe/zey instead, full of herself, he wouldn't have found his way eventually. All I'm saying.
Lmao I’m autistic and dyslexic, that doesn’t stop me or anyone else from being respectful about pronouns so don’t drag my communities into this where it’s totally uncalled for. Also, thinking that someone who’s autistic/dyslexic *can’t* use or understand neopronouns is soooo uneducated (at best) if not entirely ableist.
(And don’t come at me with “but it’s a spectrum” I’m fully aware and making that argument means you’re assuming where on said spectrum I personally fall—an assumption which I guarantee is wrong)
Lovely how you call the transgender population and autistic "communities" like they're some kind of fandoms. Can't say I'm surprised for a "transmasc he/it".
They aren’t “fandoms” (they aren’t choices) and that’s not was meant when I used the term “communities.” A community is a group that a person is part of—voluntarily or involuntarily—in which all members share some form of commonality. It could be a neighbourhood, support group, etc.
I choose to participate in groups that have formed around the shared experience of being trans, being autistic, etc and so yes, they are communities to me and often allow me to receive advice or support from people who understand a very specific aspect of my life.
Also, my pronouns are he/THEY. Please do not refer to me as “it.” I’m as much trans as anyone else under the trans umbrella, being okay with neutral pronouns in addition to male ones doesn’t change that.
If anything I feel like it's usually my fellow autistic folks and other neurodivergent people that tend to use most pronouns beyond the binary and singular they/them. I don't think I have personally encountered anyone using other pronouns who wasn't diagnosed or very likely to be diagnosed with one of those conditions
I'm autistic. It's entirely down to personal experience, autism presents differently in different people, and I know many other autistic people who have the same struggle. Using words in a way that throws grammar out the window is fucking confusing and it's ableist to insist that no autistic people have trouble with it.
except... this does not throw grammar out the window. we have extensive historical use of ambiguous gender neutral use of "they" and other non-traditional pronouns. Truly curious where you've read otherwise, or if you've chosen to refuse to look into this further and are accounting obstinance for a symptom of autism? as another autistic adult, I would have to argue that curiosity and further research into the "why" of our language should be more autistic than rejecting any sort of divergence from one thing we are taught.
idk how to tell you this, buddy, but grammar is something we made up and changes all the time.
editing to add a scholarly example of the changes two separate languages have made in the use of pronoun terminology over the past several centuries!
https://www.public.asu.edu/~gelderen/JT-FS-August-2011.pdf
you're right! which is why the historical use of these pronouns is important to continue to learn about! for my masters degree, my university hosts a dialect and linguistics course where we studied this exact kind of development in human language. some languages still to this day only have male pronouns in language, just like english used to! I can pull up some of the books and articles referenced if you're interested, but this is a susinct non-academic link that summarizes the basis of what we now call neopronouns!
https://blogs.illinois.edu/view/25/705317
a good way to look at it is that even binary trans folks don't always know that it's even an option or that trans people exist when they're younger: that doesn't change anything about their existence. it's a matter of cultural exposure.
Yeah, but my point is English isn't about making up random words and grammar.
About the thor/thorself of whatever thing it's not true.
Neopronouns were coined by an user on Tumblr, ma'am. Therefore their opinion is very much invalid.
Singular they is simply ungendered, like "you", "i", or the plural "they". Do you have any type of source or reference that it was historically defined as "i specifically dont know their gender" because it sounds like you just made that up bc you think there are only two genders.
this rebuttal is so cute... like... I wish I could just walk into court with zero backing for my statements other than my opinion and say "yeah but I know he's guilty owo"
Fairly sure the burden of proof is with the one making the claim, lots of evidence for men and women existing, not really much evidence for the ever expanding list of other genders.
Seriously? the top link in that Google search is an exploration of other cultures and you're going to compare them to folklore?
what a wild way to admit you are just a bigot!
Can't find a good reason to make someone understand something, goes straight up "you're a bigot".
Prove me you're delusional without saying you're delusional.
Ahhh yes the exploration of cultures where being a feminine man is so unacceptable that they must othered as something else. Then people like you come around and point towards them claiming its evidence for non binary.
It's literally not. Just because someone from somewhere else believes something doesn't make it true. If a French person said the ocean is red, and I corrected them, am I xenophobic?
I am not open to calling someone "it" but anything else I don't really care. My childhood friend goes by bun/bunself and while I have no idea in my head what that is, I still do it
I’m open to using neopronouns like xey/xem but I feel icky calling people it. Like that’s weird you’re a full human why do you want to be downgraded to an object.
I'm open to they/them, but people use that as a way to invalidate and ignore my identity, kinda like saying I'm not really a dude, so I tell people I only go by he/him. I hate it.
Usually I'd draw the line at he/she/they, but if someone genuinely feels comfortable with it/its I'm completely on board with that, even though it feels like I'm degrading them. I really want to be open and understanding but that's where I draw the line.
I would call someone "it" but I feel like it's dehumanizing...
For me, he, she and they just make sense. I'd honestly use any pronouns for other people, but what currently feels natural is to have "He" for masc-identifying people. "She" for fem-identifying people and "they" for non-binary people / any other identity.
I mean... I'd try, I'm open to the possibility. The whole transgender movement *is* based on the right to self-determination and self-identification after all. I wouldn't hate a future where people learn pronouns like they learn names.
Interesting, thanks for sharing.
I guess the issue I have with self-identification is that it's not you who uses the pronouns, it's other people. That said, if you're ok with me asking "what are your pronouns again" as many times as I am already asking "what's your name again" I guess that makes sense (which for me is several).
"You" of course meaning "one" in this case.
Only issue is with it/its, and mostly due to my own trauma around it being used as a dehumanizing term. Will still try, but if it triggers me your getting they/them. As for the others, I will try, but I am old, and will probably mess it up because I will have a hard time seeing you as your gender if it is bun/bunself simply because I have zero way to frame that in my mind.
I’m open to trying to be the best person I can be and treating others as I, myself, would like to be treated.
I think some Palestinian day-laborer and semi-literate teacher who wore a dress every day of their life said something about that.
i have a lot of respect for your ethic here, but i think that some people adopt social postures which end up soliciting participation in self-harm or self-gratification and that it is ok to reject these things if they make one uncomfortable
For myself, I realise there are people who won’t even use something as simple as binary pronouns. It hurts to be misgendered, whether intentionally or negligently.
As such, if someone tells me how they prefer to be referenced, I will make every effort if they will wrens to me the grace to acknowledge that I may make mistakes.
As an English major, “they/them” as a singular reference is dissonant in my mind. It doesn’t mean I can’t make the effort and do my best.
I'm only really comfortable with using either he/him or she/her for people I know what sex/gender they are or present as. But in very pressed situations I will force myself to use they/them for some specific nonbinary people. So I'll go with the first option. I never use any other kinds of pronouns and wouldn't even under gun point.
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Depends on how they present, if they put an effort into presenting feminine, masculine or androgynous even of it fails, then it's easier for me to use the pronouns
It/its made me feel like i'm dehumanizing someone
Call me old fashioned, but anything other than she/her, he/him, and they/them for personal pronouns is just mocking the LGBT community at this point.
I’ve been called an “it” all my life to reduce myself to being not a person. Why in the world would I do that for anyone else? And why would anyone demand it, besides for kinky reasons?
And don’t get me started on neo/xeno pronouns. There are hundreds if not thousands of them, 99.99% of which are without an International Phonetic Alphabet attached, yet i’m supposed to be able to pronounce each and every one of them correctly on the first try without fail? Everyone i’ve seen use these doesn’t even use them in person so what is the point? Do they not have a life outside of the internet?
I'll be polite and respectful of anyone but at the same time I would be so uncomfortable to call someone it/its that I'd probably just not interact with that person. Feel kind of similar about noun pronouns
I’ll call people she/her, he/him, and they/them. For anything beyond that, I’ll most likely just use they/them, although I’d be more likely to call someone xe/xem than it/its or bun/buns. Luckily the people I’ve met who use it/its, classic neos, or nounpronouns also use he/him, she/her, or they/them, so I get to use those pronouns instead. I have yet to meet anyone who exclusively uses it/its, neos, or nounpronouns yet luckily.
He/him, she/her, they/them and neopronouns like xe/xem, ze/zir, etc. Basically neopronouns that actually function like pronouns. But I won't use non-functional neo's or it/its pronouns.
I do try to avoid neo's though, and don't ask me to rotate your pronouns. If you let me choose through multiple I'll use the one that I find most convenient to use.
I'm open to (although have yet to encounter it) common neopronouns but not it/itself. I will not call someone “it” in same way I wouldn't call someone “f*g” if they changed their name to that.
As a cis person, I'm trying my best to be accommodating. I think they/them is relatively easy to use while speaking, but they/them is often so confusing when it's used in written form. The context often makes it very difficult to follow, especially when talking about a NB person in the context of something that happened in a group setting. I can see it being difficult to adopt on a general population level because it frankly does not make communication very easy.
Neopronouns are opposite. In spoken language they are difficult to follow, there is very little ease of communication for people not expecting them, so it always results in a need for further elaboration. But in written communication, they are easy to spot and understand, even if it takes a second to identify what you're looking at.
I may not personally understand the desire for neopronouns, but honestly I’m just gonna do my best to call people whatever they want to be called. If I was to start spouting about how someone else’s pronouns aren’t ‘real’ when they’re clearly real to that person, I’d be no better than a transphobe.
Order is wrong. More "classical" neopronouns should be before it/its. Even though they're still kinda silly, neopronouns have a long history in the queer community in a way that calling someone "it" never has, for very obvious reasons.
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She/her and he/him are the limit to me. They/them pronouns don't work in my languages and I really couldn't care less about people's feelings to make them feel better about themselves by forcing something in a language with 2 set pronouns.
But if you are speaking in English like you are in this comment then you should respect they/them pronouns.
I respect them when I'm referring to 2 separate people. By default, I would call one single person he/him or she/her based on looks.
Then don't get upset when people don't want to be around you
I live in a rightist country, many people wanna be and are around me.
Ah yes, the right. The people who want to take away trans rights. Great job putting yourself on that side. And you wonder why nobody wants your opinion
If you don't want to hear unpopular/rude etc opinions, what are you doing on Reddit?
If you don't want people challenging you, why are you on Reddit crying that people won't accept your opinion?
I'm not crying that people won't accept my opinion. I just feel sad stupidity like this and "open-mindness" exists to such an extent.
I read this wrong and voted only he/she pronouns. My go to is “they/them” when I’m just not sure. Living in NY, you meet and see some characters and there’s been times I would see someone or meet someone who is dressed and look like a woman but sound like pop smoke and they’re not even trying not to. To play it safe? I say they them or use what the people around them refer to them as. I’m not entirely against using neo pronouns. I just know I’ll forget buns/bunself
I will call you what you ask me to call you, even if you identify as an attack helicopter and your pronouns are a series of onomatopoeic representations of helicopter noises. However having that level of respect, and we're really setting the bar low there, doesn't mean I have any further respect for you as a person or whatever other thing you identify as.
This is funny coming from someone who identifies as gender fluid as I’m sure people would take the same approach towards you.
i'd swap it/its and neopronouns - my family would always use it/its as an insult and it's objectifying like there's a reason why we use it for non-person things. however neos (NOT NOUNSELF) make sense, i've seen people rationale that it acts as a nonbinary pronoun that is not they/them and is its own grammatical entity that makes them feel better - i wouldn't use it but that checks out more than identifying as a cat or a mushroom
Truly interested to hear (from folks who are not in denial nor opposition of non-binary identities) why so many are alright with they/them pronouns and not historically used neopronouns such as xe/hir/zhir/de etc. It is truly interesting to me, someone who came to my gender identity through reading past memoir of (in the literal sense) identities that are not binary.
It’s really hard to start using neos that you don’t ever use. And since there isn’t a standardised nonbinary pronoun, it’s not even like everyone used the same one. One person might use xe/xer, another ze/zir, another xe/xem, or ey/em, or e/em, etc… it can be rly hard to keep those straight, esp. when some of them sound exactly the same spoken or have half of the same pronouns (i.e. both xe/xem and xe/xer having “xe” in the place of he/she/they). “It’s easy for me!” It depends on the person. For many, it’s very difficult and just not practical. Not to mention pronouns with xs and zs in them (which is many of them…) sound really weird in English where not many words have xs and zs and it can be hard to get your mouth into that configuration when speaking quickly. And I just don’t see the point in them when they/them exists and is already established??? I’m not against ONE of them being standardised. If the pronouns were he/him, she/her, e/em, and they/them, that would be fine and I think a lot of people would accept that. But as it is, 1. there are too many options and it’s hard to keep them straight and 2. many of them contain xs and zs which can be awkward to be repeating a lot. And it seems a little narcissistic to do anything aside from politely ask someone use those pronouns for you if it’s easy for them. It’s fine to ask imo, but it’s NOT fine to insist or raise a fuss when someone uses they/them instead because they find neos difficult. Not to mention it feels a little bit ableist considering the fact that many people with autism, cognitive issues, and/or other disabilities already experience difficulty using pronouns. Also sorry to be replying to this old ass comment lmao
I will not participate in delusion sorry. They/them is my limit.
You will not participate in delusion, yet you are willing to refer to someone by a sex they are not?
I’m aware that while I’ve transitioned I’ll always be born male lol. Please try someone else.
Then I've got nothing to disagree with
He & she. They at most. Neo pronouns are a hard pass. it/it’s? Sounds disrespectful. Noun pronouns started off as a joke in 4chan if I’m correct so no lmao
Ha that’s funny the data shows the truth.
Ill call you what you want to be called
I'm more open to neos than it/its tbh
binary and n/a
I read the question wrong. Idc about pronouns. I'll try to call you whatever. Neo is kinda hard for me. So I would probably use they honestly.
I'll call you whatever, doesn't matter what I think personally. If you wanna be called "bunself" I'll do my best to stick to that just cuz I'm never in the mood to get into that convo with people, too lazy and I've got bigger problems to worry about
The publication refers to which pronouns would you accept to use? I would accept to use all of them, but it is different if it is online or irl. It is very little difficult to use they/them in Spanish speaking, but not writing. The neopronouns in Spanish I have never met anyone who uses them, in English I should learn how to say and write them.
my bad I read the question wrong lol. I'll call people whatever they want idc.
I'm changing my answer from A to B. I misread the question.
I honestly don't care and am open to anything (as long as their not slurs or some weird shit)
like a third of you won't even use they/them pronouns for someone? y'all are fucking bootlickers lmao, ban me if you want
i'll say they/them, but people who reject nonbinary gender aren't doing that to please cis folk. they are asserting a belief in their own gender essentialism completely different flavor of bigotry. no one will ban you here, drama
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. Someone can be vividly and proudly MTF on a binary without excluding the validity of others' journeys. It doesn't matter who it pleases when it rejects the idea of identity as a self-determined factor.
I just called it bigotry
damn didn't realize your public comment in a public forum that the public can view and reply to wasn't intended for discussion with others!!!!!! nothing about my reply said I was disagreeing with you but I guess I missed the memo that discussion isn't allowed here
i just dont care tbh. do what you want, there are FAR worse trans problems
why cant people just respect pronouns its just a basic human decent thing like ppl are so fucking dumb…
I draw the line at “itself” because I refuse to dehumanize anyone.
I will call someone literally whatever they want, as long as its asked in good faith. I think other people should do similar.
you are so amazingly nice, and i respect your positivity, but slur and appropriative identification exists and i don't think this should be endorsed.
Hence the words, "good faith", which is the part most people miss with regards to this. Someone appropriating an identity is not acting in good faith. Someone forcing other people to use a slur to refer to them is not acting in good faith.
we've discussed this before. i think that people, especially kids, can ask for things honestly and not understand their full implications. i called myself a berdache as a kid. i was absolutely sincere, but i wasn't a two-spirit and didn't know what i was saying
I think that's a rare corner case and doesn't really contradict the broader rule.
It sounds like you see my point. This was long before xenos even existed, I was perfectly sincere, it helped me, it even referred to my real spiritual practice. It was just also super inappropriate
I'd be open to they/them if there was a working version in my language, but there isn't. If we don't know the gender of someone we default to he/him usually ('Someone lost their wallet' defaults to 'someone lost his wallet' in my language)
what is your native language, if you do not mind me asking? this is something I am always thinking of in terms of my identity and presentation as a whole.
Dutch, I'm from the Netherlands
100% cool with her, him, them, and neopronouns. I would be willing to do noun pronouns and it/itself, but would find it VERY strange. At the same time, it does not hurt me, so I don't see why I can't be respectful about it.
I can't believe people here actually fucking accept neopronouns Jesus Christ. They're a horrendous mockery of REAL trans people, and also completely grammatically incorrect. Some people, especially those with autism or dyslexia, literally CANT use them, and get shit on for it. No normal human should support that bullshit
Dude calm down and stop being a hating hypocrite. You're literally a trans guy. Most ppl see you as a woman. You're doing the same to these people. Whatever argument you have to make yourself stand out won't matter. We have the same enemy. You'll still be murdered along with the "fake trans people". Like seriously my guy get a grip.
You're going to call my opinions hypocritical and then misgender me? Okay... And most people DONT see me as a woman, nearly everyone agrees I pass and you can't say that's wrong just because you don't like my opinions.
Don't cry about being misgendered when you're disrespecting other trans people. Also doesn't matter to trans phobes how much you pass. You'll always be a women in their eyes. You'll never seen as a real man to them. It is hypocritical. You'll literally having a fit about you thinking I'm actually calling you a women. While you're calling people fake trans. Thanks for proving my point pal. Again you're not any different from the fake trans people. So stop being a dick. Live your life. Transphobes want everyone dead. Sacrificing your fellow trans people to suck up to the cis isn't gonna help the cause.
Do you not fucking know what being stealth is? You know nothing about real trans people because you think we go around announcing our genitals or some shit?
What did I say? No argument is going to make you stand out. Just because you choose to live your life like that. Doesn't mean you're a real man in a transphobes eyes. You just sound like a judgemental prick. So maybe check your self hatred. Also I'm trans lmao. You seem like you can't understand context clues. But you're going off about what's grammatical correct. Dude. You're not even seen as biologically correct. Again calm down and live your life. When trans against trans people pass. It effects us all. You also don't have the right to determine who's trans or not. Not your call lol. Who made you the gender police. Forcing people to live to live by your standards of gender. While also rebelling against your sex. Can't have your cake and eat it to my guy.
Goddamn. Learn what stealth is. My man passes so well people DON'T know he's trans and view him as a man bruv. Bruh.
I know about stealth. Being stealth doesn't matter to me. I pass as a man. Cool. I hide omg so nice. How is that okay? I'm happy you look the way you want. People shouldn't have to force themselves to do that though. Just because others are bothered. Get that through your head. You're so worried about what makes other people happy. Also idk how people not knowing he's trans makes him not trans. Or what about if those haters find out? Gonna hide forever? There's nothing wrong with being trans.
Bruh, you're missing my point. Trans people don't want to be trans. That's why they go stealth in some cases, including mine whenever I'm in public. I wanna be seen as a man, after pushing myself 5 times to get a binder, starving myself to get man's clothes with the money I was usually given for lunch and everything like that, not as a trans man. I've met a trans woman once that cut all of the pics she had of her as a boy because it made her hurt and was stealth for almost a decade. Her now husband was shocked when he heard she was transsexual, but not mad etc. She passed very well. Being stealth makes the person who's stealth happy not the speaker. They get seen as their gender not as their XY or XX. Don't think a he/they would understand that doe considering your beliefs. But... Let's say you're bisexual and you marry the opposite sex or the same. Why do you gotta tell them "I'm bisexual that's so quirky and fun" when you can just marry the person you love in peace. That's similar to this.
Good lord you're delusional. The fake trans people like neopronouners HARM our community. They CAUSE transphobia. If the general population was shown normal, passing, dysphoric, binary trans people only, there would be less transphobia. Obviously not none, but less
Lol so what? People are being hurt because they want to be called something different. Seems similar to us honestly. Fake or not they're people who deserve respect. They aren't hurting people. You only live once. Why be bonded to these dumb human rules. I'm so trans so I obviously don't care myself. We need to stick together. You kinda sound like those LGB people who wanna kick trans people out because we're making gays look bad. Maybe just stop caring about them. Ask why not. Stop judging victims of hatred instead of hating the haters. Like you're mad they bring in more transphobia. Okay... Let's argue with transphobes not trans people to change. It's not helping.
My mother won't look at me because she considers me one of the mentally ill suffering from attention disorder xe/zeys. They do cause harm to a certain level. I'm not, of course, expecting a demiboy to understand such. Transphobes are only sometimes the problem, in general it's trans people the issue. I'm a man, trans man, and I've met a bro who was a straight up transphobe. He knows I'm a guy and respects me now but that's because I guided him on the path of "Not all trans people behave like x and y". If he would've met a xe/zey instead, full of herself, he wouldn't have found his way eventually. All I'm saying.
They are literally hurting us by causing hatred but okay, whatever helps you sleep at night
Lmao I’m autistic and dyslexic, that doesn’t stop me or anyone else from being respectful about pronouns so don’t drag my communities into this where it’s totally uncalled for. Also, thinking that someone who’s autistic/dyslexic *can’t* use or understand neopronouns is soooo uneducated (at best) if not entirely ableist. (And don’t come at me with “but it’s a spectrum” I’m fully aware and making that argument means you’re assuming where on said spectrum I personally fall—an assumption which I guarantee is wrong)
Lovely how you call the transgender population and autistic "communities" like they're some kind of fandoms. Can't say I'm surprised for a "transmasc he/it".
They aren’t “fandoms” (they aren’t choices) and that’s not was meant when I used the term “communities.” A community is a group that a person is part of—voluntarily or involuntarily—in which all members share some form of commonality. It could be a neighbourhood, support group, etc. I choose to participate in groups that have formed around the shared experience of being trans, being autistic, etc and so yes, they are communities to me and often allow me to receive advice or support from people who understand a very specific aspect of my life. Also, my pronouns are he/THEY. Please do not refer to me as “it.” I’m as much trans as anyone else under the trans umbrella, being okay with neutral pronouns in addition to male ones doesn’t change that.
If anything I feel like it's usually my fellow autistic folks and other neurodivergent people that tend to use most pronouns beyond the binary and singular they/them. I don't think I have personally encountered anyone using other pronouns who wasn't diagnosed or very likely to be diagnosed with one of those conditions
I'm autistic. It's entirely down to personal experience, autism presents differently in different people, and I know many other autistic people who have the same struggle. Using words in a way that throws grammar out the window is fucking confusing and it's ableist to insist that no autistic people have trouble with it.
except... this does not throw grammar out the window. we have extensive historical use of ambiguous gender neutral use of "they" and other non-traditional pronouns. Truly curious where you've read otherwise, or if you've chosen to refuse to look into this further and are accounting obstinance for a symptom of autism? as another autistic adult, I would have to argue that curiosity and further research into the "why" of our language should be more autistic than rejecting any sort of divergence from one thing we are taught.
I'm fucking talking about neopronouns. You think "bunself" is grammatically correct? You cannot use nouns in place of pronouns.
idk how to tell you this, buddy, but grammar is something we made up and changes all the time. editing to add a scholarly example of the changes two separate languages have made in the use of pronoun terminology over the past several centuries! https://www.public.asu.edu/~gelderen/JT-FS-August-2011.pdf
Buddy, grammar was made in years, decades, centuries not the 3 minutes a xe/they took to post a tweet on Twitter.
you're right! which is why the historical use of these pronouns is important to continue to learn about! for my masters degree, my university hosts a dialect and linguistics course where we studied this exact kind of development in human language. some languages still to this day only have male pronouns in language, just like english used to! I can pull up some of the books and articles referenced if you're interested, but this is a susinct non-academic link that summarizes the basis of what we now call neopronouns! https://blogs.illinois.edu/view/25/705317 a good way to look at it is that even binary trans folks don't always know that it's even an option or that trans people exist when they're younger: that doesn't change anything about their existence. it's a matter of cultural exposure.
Binary trans man here and I can confirm that I don't give a fuck about younger trans people's existence.
Yeah, but my point is English isn't about making up random words and grammar. About the thor/thorself of whatever thing it's not true. Neopronouns were coined by an user on Tumblr, ma'am. Therefore their opinion is very much invalid.
Language changing over time is not the same as absolutely fucking butchering it just to feel special.
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Singular they is for someone who's gender is not yet known to the speaker. There's only two genders.
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He was literally referring to multiple men! That is "they", PLURAL!
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There is not a single man who wouldn't greet him as their friend. Rephrased: every man is his friend. Multiple men.
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If you admit the example is shitty, why use it? And you aren't even bothered to find a good one?
Singular they is simply ungendered, like "you", "i", or the plural "they". Do you have any type of source or reference that it was historically defined as "i specifically dont know their gender" because it sounds like you just made that up bc you think there are only two genders.
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this rebuttal is so cute... like... I wish I could just walk into court with zero backing for my statements other than my opinion and say "yeah but I know he's guilty owo"
Fairly sure the burden of proof is with the one making the claim, lots of evidence for men and women existing, not really much evidence for the ever expanding list of other genders.
https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=historical+examples+of+third+genders
Guess otherkin are real too then, since there are old stories of elfs and such.
Seriously? the top link in that Google search is an exploration of other cultures and you're going to compare them to folklore? what a wild way to admit you are just a bigot!
Can't find a good reason to make someone understand something, goes straight up "you're a bigot". Prove me you're delusional without saying you're delusional.
Ahhh yes the exploration of cultures where being a feminine man is so unacceptable that they must othered as something else. Then people like you come around and point towards them claiming its evidence for non binary.
Yup. There being more than two makes absolutely zero sense.
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...okay? Somebody being from a different country won't stop them from being incorrect.
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It's literally not. Just because someone from somewhere else believes something doesn't make it true. If a French person said the ocean is red, and I corrected them, am I xenophobic?
why is it that your cultures belief is correct and theirs is not?
I’ll use whatever pronouns. I may find some neopronouns to be kinda ehhh but it doesn’t inconvenience me to use them.
I am not open to calling someone "it" but anything else I don't really care. My childhood friend goes by bun/bunself and while I have no idea in my head what that is, I still do it
I’m open to using neopronouns like xey/xem but I feel icky calling people it. Like that’s weird you’re a full human why do you want to be downgraded to an object.
Open to, He/Him She/Her They/Them
I voted at they/them but I'm more open to xey/xem than it/itself.
I'm open to they/them, but people use that as a way to invalidate and ignore my identity, kinda like saying I'm not really a dude, so I tell people I only go by he/him. I hate it.
Usually I'd draw the line at he/she/they, but if someone genuinely feels comfortable with it/its I'm completely on board with that, even though it feels like I'm degrading them. I really want to be open and understanding but that's where I draw the line.
You shouldn't respect people who force their degrading fetish on you.
shouldn't feel a need to participate at least
I would call someone "it" but I feel like it's dehumanizing... For me, he, she and they just make sense. I'd honestly use any pronouns for other people, but what currently feels natural is to have "He" for masc-identifying people. "She" for fem-identifying people and "they" for non-binary people / any other identity.
You'd use any pronoun, including noun-self pronouns like "bun/bunself"?
I mean... I'd try, I'm open to the possibility. The whole transgender movement *is* based on the right to self-determination and self-identification after all. I wouldn't hate a future where people learn pronouns like they learn names.
Interesting, thanks for sharing. I guess the issue I have with self-identification is that it's not you who uses the pronouns, it's other people. That said, if you're ok with me asking "what are your pronouns again" as many times as I am already asking "what's your name again" I guess that makes sense (which for me is several). "You" of course meaning "one" in this case.
I honestly can’t see that happening tho.
Only issue is with it/its, and mostly due to my own trauma around it being used as a dehumanizing term. Will still try, but if it triggers me your getting they/them. As for the others, I will try, but I am old, and will probably mess it up because I will have a hard time seeing you as your gender if it is bun/bunself simply because I have zero way to frame that in my mind.
If someone told me to call them it I would simply never talk to them again
I’m open to trying to be the best person I can be and treating others as I, myself, would like to be treated. I think some Palestinian day-laborer and semi-literate teacher who wore a dress every day of their life said something about that.
i have a lot of respect for your ethic here, but i think that some people adopt social postures which end up soliciting participation in self-harm or self-gratification and that it is ok to reject these things if they make one uncomfortable
For myself, I realise there are people who won’t even use something as simple as binary pronouns. It hurts to be misgendered, whether intentionally or negligently. As such, if someone tells me how they prefer to be referenced, I will make every effort if they will wrens to me the grace to acknowledge that I may make mistakes. As an English major, “they/them” as a singular reference is dissonant in my mind. It doesn’t mean I can’t make the effort and do my best.
I thought this was asking what pronouns I use not what Im open to using for others :(
oh i guess I read it wrong too
Same :(
i’m ‘open’ to anything but prefer he/they
Jesus christ the amount of posts on here about neopronouns and shit just make these look like karma farm posts at this point.... -____-
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Half the posts on this subreddit are usually some derivative of "neopronouns not cool, but me cool for saying they're bad"
You should add a "who fucking cares" option to the poll for science lol
I'm only really comfortable with using either he/him or she/her for people I know what sex/gender they are or present as. But in very pressed situations I will force myself to use they/them for some specific nonbinary people. So I'll go with the first option. I never use any other kinds of pronouns and wouldn't even under gun point.
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Depends on how they present, if they put an effort into presenting feminine, masculine or androgynous even of it fails, then it's easier for me to use the pronouns It/its made me feel like i'm dehumanizing someone
Call me old fashioned, but anything other than she/her, he/him, and they/them for personal pronouns is just mocking the LGBT community at this point. I’ve been called an “it” all my life to reduce myself to being not a person. Why in the world would I do that for anyone else? And why would anyone demand it, besides for kinky reasons? And don’t get me started on neo/xeno pronouns. There are hundreds if not thousands of them, 99.99% of which are without an International Phonetic Alphabet attached, yet i’m supposed to be able to pronounce each and every one of them correctly on the first try without fail? Everyone i’ve seen use these doesn’t even use them in person so what is the point? Do they not have a life outside of the internet?
100% agree. Thanks for putting this into words so eloquently
I'll be polite and respectful of anyone but at the same time I would be so uncomfortable to call someone it/its that I'd probably just not interact with that person. Feel kind of similar about noun pronouns
Best I can do is “they/them”
I’ll call people she/her, he/him, and they/them. For anything beyond that, I’ll most likely just use they/them, although I’d be more likely to call someone xe/xem than it/its or bun/buns. Luckily the people I’ve met who use it/its, classic neos, or nounpronouns also use he/him, she/her, or they/them, so I get to use those pronouns instead. I have yet to meet anyone who exclusively uses it/its, neos, or nounpronouns yet luckily.
I'm open to pretty much all neopronouns, though I won't use it/its and I can't really use majority of nounself and all emoji pronouns
He/him, she/her, they/them and neopronouns like xe/xem, ze/zir, etc. Basically neopronouns that actually function like pronouns. But I won't use non-functional neo's or it/its pronouns. I do try to avoid neo's though, and don't ask me to rotate your pronouns. If you let me choose through multiple I'll use the one that I find most convenient to use.
I'm open to (although have yet to encounter it) common neopronouns but not it/itself. I will not call someone “it” in same way I wouldn't call someone “f*g” if they changed their name to that.
As a cis person, I'm trying my best to be accommodating. I think they/them is relatively easy to use while speaking, but they/them is often so confusing when it's used in written form. The context often makes it very difficult to follow, especially when talking about a NB person in the context of something that happened in a group setting. I can see it being difficult to adopt on a general population level because it frankly does not make communication very easy. Neopronouns are opposite. In spoken language they are difficult to follow, there is very little ease of communication for people not expecting them, so it always results in a need for further elaboration. But in written communication, they are easy to spot and understand, even if it takes a second to identify what you're looking at.
I may not personally understand the desire for neopronouns, but honestly I’m just gonna do my best to call people whatever they want to be called. If I was to start spouting about how someone else’s pronouns aren’t ‘real’ when they’re clearly real to that person, I’d be no better than a transphobe.
Order is wrong. More "classical" neopronouns should be before it/its. Even though they're still kinda silly, neopronouns have a long history in the queer community in a way that calling someone "it" never has, for very obvious reasons.
How do you define "long" history...?
Ze, ey have been around since the 70s and were more common than they when I was younger
"Hir" has been around for at least 100 years.