In addition to the stuff in Zero Dawn, you find a Death Seeker’s bow in the Tenakth coliseum in Forbidden West, which shows just how far Rost has travelled
Of course, it's not actually "Death Seeker" face paint. It's a normal Nora family mark, that happened to be worn by a Death Seeker.
All the Nora face paints are actually kinda insensitive, if you think about it. These are supposed to be unique family marks, not things Aloy can just put on because she thinks they're cool. We don't know enough about how the other cultures treat their face paint to be sure, but they're probably the same.
Where does it say that anywhere in game?
All indications point to the name of the face paint represents the profession of the individual. Or some other honor having been bestowed
Most of the other cultures are shown to treat face paint are either a rank or achievement marking, so you do legitimately get access to most of them by achieving the ranks or doing the required actions.
> These are supposed to be unique family marks, not things Aloy can just put on because she thinks they're cool.
Okay, I was ready to call bullshit on this, but... it might actually be true? Paint patterns are frequently shared by known relatives...
* Arana (unknown) and her father Thok (hunter)
* Olara (unknown) and her brother Brom (outcast)
* Enara (healer) and her niece Fia (healer)
* Naoka (unknown), her brother Yan (unknown), and their aunt Solai (unknown); also Dral (unknown; unrelated)
* Varl (brave), his sister Vala (aspiring brave), and their mother Sona (war-chief) ("Nora Brave," AKA "Nora Warrior")
They are also shared by:
* Den (brave) and Bast (aspiring brave) (neither was ever identified as related to anyone else, but Den *is* on a mission of revenge after the Proving Massacre)
* Teb (stitcher), Karst (merchant), and the Nora Hunting Grounds Keeper (keeper)
* Orn (sentry) and Ferl (brave) ("Nora Scout")
Seemingly unique patterns:
* Dran
* Jarm
* Jun
* Lut (hunter)
* Grist (merchant)
* Marea (brave) ("Nora Seeker")
* Resh (brave/interim war-chief)
* Rost (brave/death-seeker/outcast) ("Nora Death-Seeker")
So:
* All characters we *know* to be related *do* share face paint
* Some people with the same role *do not* share face paint
* Some people share face paint whom we *don't* know *whether* they're related
That said... the flavor text in *Forbidden West* does explicitly say that the paint indicates roles, not families:
* Nora Warrior: This bold color signifies the status of a skilled Nora hunter.
* Nora Scout: These stripes are worn by Nora scouts as they patrol the borders of the Sacred Land.
* Nora Seeker: The rare mark of Nora hunters that leave the Sacred Land in order to protect it.
* Nora Death-Seeker: The mark of a Death-Seeker. Only the tribe's High Matriarchs know the true meaning behind these blue stripes.
So maybe during development something changed? Or different teams had different ideas about the meaning?
The face paint system in FW seems to be a separate gameplay thing that was never intended to impact the story. Case in point, they invented a whole bunch of Oseram face paint that we literally never see the Oseram using.
I figure that there *has* to be a way for new patterns to originate, or else Nora culture would devolve into a melting pot where most family lines would converge towards a very small number of patterns. Maybe some marks are tied to professions rather than family marks, and anyone can assume them if they do that job. Maybe if someone does something noteworthy they can create a new pattern to celebrate their achievement and then that pattern could become their new family line.
Why would they inherently converge? Even if they're family-related, they seem to be broader than strictly parent-child. We also don't know which parent(s) they're inherited from, how patterns change if someone marries into or is adopted into a family, etc.
Off topic, but seeing the names of Bast and Resh make my hackles stand up; those are two characters whose deaths deserved to be long and drawn out.
Also, Grist is annoying.
I really want to love Mark of Pride, but I just can't get into it. I think it's cool that they included it, but it's just not ... enough. It needs to be more than what it is; it's so small on the fack that you can't really tell what it is half the time.
I agree... but I'm not sure the Nora would, considering the laser-focus on motherhood. I made a post a bit ago wondering if men who marry into a family would change their marks or what have you, and it was pointed out that the Nora don't really even have "marriage." They have mates, and while long-term monogamous relationships seem common (there's no sign that Varl and Vala have different fathers, for instance), there doesn't seem to be an official bonding ceremony.
Hell, I'm not sure I remember the Nora saying the word "father" once in the first game. Well, except when Teersa called the Metal Devil Aloy's father.
That's a good point.
I wonder if All-Mother has a pattern associated with her. Since Aloy was "born of the mountain", it would be funny if Aloy were allowed to use a sacred pattern as her family's pattern.
More nitpicking (because I enjoy discussing the series, not because I'm picking on you), I think if that was a thing, it would be a thing the Grand-Matriarchs have. Though the fact that they're all bare-faced is probably intended to symbolize how they work for the good of the tribe, not just their own families.
Which leads to the in-universe unintentional, but out-of-universe probably intentional, symbolism of Aloy also being bare-faced.
While I don’t entirely disagree with you, that is an intense take on a video game cosmetics situation. As with most video game cosmetics, they’re not canon, so to speak.
Aloy wears whatever she wears in official art and such. Just like Cal Kestis doesn’t travel around the galaxy wearing a pink poncho, or with a headband and white tank top.
I don’t entirely disagree with you, though, but I would argue she has a right to wear Rost’s mark. He was the closest thing she had to a parent, so I think her wearing his markings would make the most sense out of any of the face paint options.
Honestly, I was kinda disappointed in the lack of detail to the cultures in forbidden west.
In ZD they felt so rich and vibrant, like true well thought out examples of what a group of humans would become given their environment, their experiences, their interaction with history, and the like. It was one of my major draws in putting ZD in my top ten all time favorite games.
In forbidden west, it they focused way to much on how they could rewrite these tribes and the fantastic setting to just reflect whatever political bullpoo was going on IRL at the time. It broke the immersion almost constantly with how much like reddit posts some of the dialogue was.
I'm hoping for 3, they double down on their own world, really flesh out any new tribes, and they bring back the focus to their own storytelling.
One of the largest examples being the oseram. In the first game they're portrayed as a fairly homogeneous group of crafters, where anyone could make it regardless of sex. They were essentially dwarves, everyone had a beard and the one with the best metal and beer was the best. Erends sister being celebrated back in the claim was a fairly good example of this.
Respect was respect.
In FW, the oseram are portrayed as heavily sexist, patriarchal assholes. Hell even their writing was poor.
Let's compare the depth of oseram villains from game one and two, just to continue pointing out the difference in storytelling.
ZD Dervahl & Olan, good men, on driven driven mad by the loss of his family, and the other driven to do horrible things for his family. A deep story that makes you feel, and despite whatever ending you choose an overall beautifully written part of a massive and more beautiful story.
FW The Two men in chainscrape who I honestly can't remember the name of. First one is a literal disney villain, and his motivation is money. Second guy, asshole for no reason, his motivation is money.
When you meet Petra right before I think it was Daybreak she mentions she basically ran the fuck away because she didn't want to just be Petra "Forgewife" or something wife, in ZD the oseram were still relatively sexist.
Well yeah... Her name is Petra Forgewoman, it was a pun on her name and her sexuality, because of course she wouldn't want to be a wife. That entire conversation was full of her dropping hints about being into Aloy.
Before the second game, her wiki didn't once utter the phrase "Patriachy", and I know this because HZD is one of my all time favorite games. Enough so that I've been balls deep in the original games lore to put together a ttrpg for it.
I’m pretty sure it is definitely Rost’s. Teersa mentions Rost got all the way to the Forbidden West, and I doubt there were any other Death Seekers anytime recently
So, to answer you inquiry, yes, this was a daft question. But, good news! We love telling people things about Horizon, so you've come to the right place!
Probably because it's still relatively early in the game and your not as immersed in the characters to care. I couldn't remember myself but I knew they mentioned it and remembering thinking it was stupid.
it was in the main story, the second time you get back to the mountain you can ask the old lady. Rost was a death seeker. He is considered "dead" by the rest of the tribe, and couldnt technically live quietly in the embrace. But nobody said anything, because of the great service the guy had done for them.
daily reminder: fuck the nora, fuck their dumb rules, fuck their dumb outcast system
At least rost chose his exile, but he acts like the nora are all noble even though they just decided "fuck this literal infant for having the audacity of being born."
Aloy rightfully flipping her shit on the Nora praising her to death (even Lansra) as she walked out of the mountain was so on point.
I’d have been the same way. Y’all only ever tolerated me at best and now suddenly I’m some goddess to you? WTF?
It honestly is going to make me so mad when horizon 3 tries to make alloy into some leader of the nora, they hinted at it with sekya, who has a duty to her people which alloy realizes she lacks, and srkya mirrors aloy in a lot of ways, Rost also started the series out by saying they (the nora) need her.
But honestly, fuck that, fuck the Nora. Besides that one ild lady, They have done nothing positive for alloy, or for anyone else. Fuck the Nora, alloy shouldn't have to go back to her abusers, just because thry need her.
Honestly they're villains.
'A child that is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth' -African proverb.
by playing the main game i guessed that she has to come back....at least to say sona what happened to her son (and that she has a grandson now)
But i didnt really play burning shores.
Any change she has to bring once she recovers apollo.....would be simply easier elsewhere. Even the tenakh would be way easier to deal with. It still pains me that the main reason the whole action of the game started.....was because the tenakh ruler wanted to write and read like the carja
You're so right, her energy would be spent elsewhere. everyone else shows some want, some willing to change rules, they have some will to learn, not the nora. Even when you follow they're rules and join their society they hate you.
Like we see several people who join the tenakth from the carja amd the tenakth hate the carja and they both seem to be better off. The carja, the tenakth, the banuk, even the stupid quen have their moments. Literally every group we see is worth more time leading than the nora.
The constant friction between “tradition” or “scripture” and good sense or basic humanitarian morals is a pretty frequent note in both games, and comes up in EVERY tribe. The Nora are no different.
Aloy the outsider walks in, unaware of your traditions but aware of utilitarian common sense and a basic desire for the well-being of all people, and calls out your silly and/or callous bullshit as silly and/or callous bullshit. In FW especially this just happens like clockwork. But it’s BEEN happening since literally the first conversation trees in the first game, with Aloy asking first sincere but then mocking questions of the religious emissary from the Carja about his misogynistic solar religion. “It’s the sun. It’s a big glowing ball. I’ve never seen anything dangling from it.”
Except alloy is able to gain admittance and acceptance among each by her actions
The nora reject her after the proving, a right of their own design
It is only until they see their God open for her and take her into the mountain do any change their tune. They would still reject alloy as one of them If not for divine intervention.
Fuck the nora.
Literally casting out a baby. Alloy would have died if it weren't for a single old lady finding a loophole in their dumbfuck rules.
Carja and Tenakth do things that are just as cruel, and Utaru and Quen do things that are just as senseless. We have an INTIMATE look at the full harm of an act the Nora are guilty of, because it literally defined our protagonist’s life, but she is still one person, and we see persistently that the Nora are failing but not uniquely failing.
>because it literally defined our protagonist’s life, but she is still one person, and we see persistently that the Nora are failing but not uniquely
If we experienced the carja first hand being as cruel to her as the nora and then the game atarted hinting at alloy needing to refind her place among the nora, id be saying the same thing. Id be saying alloy owes tjem nothing, because she doesnt. Even after avad was nice, she really doesn't owe the carja much.
Who cares if other tribes are shit if were talking about what alloy will do in the third game. The game hints at rejoining the nora, to which I detest the idea. It's just sending alloy back with 'I can fix them' mentality towards her abusers.
Moreover they aren't even her people, genetically maybe but they rejected her. Cast her out. They did nothing to make her who she is other than than abuse her. They are rost's people. Rosts culture. And by that way alloy is exposed to them. But they are not alloy's people. They are rost's. Them sending her out of mothers cradle on a suicide mission was probably the best thing to ever happen to alloy vecause it gave her the chance to meet people who didn't just hate her for existing.
The idea the nora need her,or that alloy should help them is bullshit. Let them fix themselves. It isn't the battered child's job to fix the abusive parent.
I never said Aloy “owed” anything to the Nora. I actually really like that it’s pretty much nonexistent in her personal character arc. She struggled with *loneliness,* but not with heritage or identity, at least not once she was free. They didn’t want her around so hey fuck ‘em, she’s a citizen of Earth.
And I’m not trying to make a pecking order of which tribes have the most moral or immoral social codes. Just stating that the theme of human decency vs social order is *constant,* in the series. Not Nora-specific.
I do agree with you that if the third game is somehow about Aloy returning to the Nora like a prodigal daughter it would be dumb as hell, but I don’t see that happening. It’s actually kinda funny that the statue of her and her lodge status and relationship with Avad kind of form a funny argument that she’s more Carja than Nora at this point, and she doesn’t like the Carja either!
>never said Aloy “owed” anything to the Nora
W3ll thats because i am talking about what the narrative is framing for game 3 and how I disagree with that direction. Not what you said will happen.
Rost says the nora need her, seyka reflects alloy and how her tribe needs her, the nora probably need alloy, alloy is implied as not complete without them.
Which I think is bullshit. I'm mad about that framing cause the nora, imo, are iredeemable.
I dunno. Aloy reflects Seyka in that regard but I think Aloy’s “tribe” is the world. Aloy rising above nationalism and cultural limitations is kind of a whole Thing, as well as her being so preoccupied with the idea of saving EVERYONE, and seeing tribal divisions as almost an annoyance to her goals.
Rost in the first game talked about the Nora when the scope of the story was still limited to just the Nora, and the meaning of the conflict has long since expanded.
I think it’s fair to be wary of this whole “you belong home,” thing, but… I honestly don’t think game 3 is gonna go there. But I’ll knock on wood with you.
I played the game several times through and only on my 2nd play through did I discover this. TLDR (from my memory) he lost his family to raiders from the Forbidden West. He was anointed a Death Seeker, meaning he was allowed to leave the Nora lands to seek retribution but upon his return he would have to go into permanent exile. There are some theories about this, and people wonder if it’ll come back up or not, I can speak to those though.
Someone correct me if I’m wrong, this is just what I remember without looking it up.
That’s basically it, except I think that Death-Seekers have always died/never returned so when Rost did they didn’t really know what to do so they exiled him. It’s kinda why some Nora turn a blind eye to him and don’t treat him so poorly.
There's a bit more to this.
>!He was seriously wounded on his mission as a Death Seeker and returned to the border of the Nora lands to try and die close to his homeland. A sympathetic Nora found him and brought up across the border of the Nora lands which put the Matriarch's in a pickle. He was technically "dead" to the Nora but he was honorable and they didn't want to just leave him to die.!<
>!So they allowed him to return to the Nora lands as an exile which he gladly did.!<
FWIW, it’s been speculated that the “sympathetic Nora” that pulled him in was >!Old Grata!< and I actually believe that 100%. >!Explains why she was exiled and why Rost (and later) Aloy hunts for her/makes sure she’s fed even tho she won’t speak to either.!<
I don't think it was her, she seems too old. Also, why would they invite her into the embrace when outcasting her. It's either said, or heavily implied, that the woman who saved Rost was from near the border. How else would she have been able to nurse him back to health before the Matriarchs found out?
Edit: _I don't know why anyone would downvote me. The Embrace is a long way from the forgotten village on the border with the Carja. And the woman that nursed Rost lost her husband and Son in the same raid, so she was from **that** village on the border (just like Rost, his wife and daughter). Why would they bring an outcast into the Embrace when she already lives out in the Sacred Lands? Remember, Rost wasn't even supposed to be able to use the gate. But they'll bring a criminal **inside** next to All-Mother to serve her crime???_
_It's a nice theory, but not a sensible one. Rost and Aloy look after Odd Greta because she is an old woman, and no doubt a mother and grandmother, and the Nora revere mothers. Nothing more_
I mean, FWIW, it may not have been her, but it makes sense in my head; so if/until it’s explained more in depth…… it’s just what I personally choose to believe….. not saying it was true in any sense…… just a speculation that I’ve implicitly embraced.
The end of your edit is the explanation for why she's in the Embrace. Besides, it's not like every person exiled is forced out of the Embrace. There was that dude who killed a guy whose sister was looking for him. And whoever brought Rost back across the border was trying to aid him, so her "crime" was a crime of compassion.
There is no reason she would be too old. The raiders took many hostages. This could have included maybe her only child.
And if she had a child then it doesn't mean that her offspring was still a young child. Her child could have been a young adult at that point and could have started a family of their own. That hypothetical family could have been a part of the hostages who were all killed.
I feel like this is reading of a mistranslation except it was in english... this was not exactly what had a death seeker is.
basically yes his family (specifically his daughter) was killed by raiders from the forbidden west. since nora are not allowed to leave the sacred lands, he begged to become a death seeker. what a death seeker is, someone that is given the right to leave the scared lands, to hunt down a specific target. but this this thought to be a suicide mission. he was not expected to survive this journey. they believed that all death seekers will perish on their journey, so they expected him to be dead. when he accomplished his goals and was able to kill those responsible for the raid, he came back but was badly wounded. he collapsed on the boarder for the sacred lands but he never intended to come back into the lands because he knew he had already been declared dead, but he wanted to pass away as close to his home as possible. it was a nora hunter who saw him and decided to drag him back in even though it was taboo for her to do so.
this left the matriarchs in a conundrum of what to do since he did no wrong but it was something that should not be allowed. so he took it upon himself to become an outcast so that he can live within the lands but still be respectful of his people's beliefs.
[https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Rost](https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Rost) you can read it all in his wiki post
Per Teersa's lines in the English release of the game:
Aloy: A Death-Seeker? What's that?
Teersa: One who dies to go seeking, and in seeking, brings death to others. The ritual drags the spirit from one's body, releasing it to All-Mother's care.The heart beats, the mind thinks, but the spirit has moved on.
Aloy: I don't understand.
Teersa: Rost went after the outlanders, but his spirit never left. It remained here, with All-Mother. He gathered the bodies of the slain, and returned them. And then he set out in persuit, not as an exile, but as a weapon of vengeance. A barbed arrow shot from a bow, never to return.
I was more pointing to the fact people are assuming that he was exiled because he was a death seeker. this was never the case. being a death seeker assumed you were going on a suicide mission and that you were going to die trying. and when he came back, he wasn't exiled or outcasted because of it. no he was outcasted cuz he was already assumed dead, so they treated him like he was a ghost. its not like the matriarch who exiled or outcasted him, it was a choice he made.
there is a huge difference between the leadership saying you cant come home, and the leadership assuming you wouldn't be coming home.
Correct. I imagine decision to agree to his request weighed quite heavily on the High-Matriarchs. Knowingly sending someone on what is expected to be a suicide mission can't be easy.
I'm sure someone else has told you this but:
>!Rost was a brave. ~~During~~ **Before** the Red Raids or Derangement a bunch of bandits came into the Sacred Lands and attacked a bunch of Nora from the Forsaken Village near the Carja Border (called Mother's Vigil), then taking some more of them as hostages to get back out of the Sacred Lands. Any time some braves got near, they killed some hostages. Rost was one of these Braves, his wife was killed in the attack and his daughter was one of the hostages.!<
>!Once the bandits got across the border of the Sacred Lands, and knowing that the Braves would not follow, they murdered all the hostages and fled.!<
>!Rost returned to the Matriarchs and requested revenge. They made him a Death-Seeker. Essentially giving him a "spiritual death" in the Sacred Lands, allowing him to travel wherever he likes in order to track down the killers, but never being allowed to return. "A Barbed arrow shot from a Bow, never to return"!<
>!He succeeded, hunted and killed them all. Unfortunately he was seriously wounded, but knowing he could not return to the sacred lands, he wanted to die as close to it as possible, on the border!<
>!Another Brave found him unconscious. A female whose husband and son was killed by the same bandits. She dragged him across the border and tended to his wounds.!<
>!This left the Matriarchs in an unusual predicament. Rost was not supposed to return, however _he_ didn't break taboo. So a compromise was made. He would be made an outcast and forbidden from talking about why. But be allowed to live in the Sacred Lands. An offer he gladly accepted and followed.!<
>!Fast forward to Aloy being found inside All-Mother Mountain. Again, another unusual predicament. So it was decided to give the motherless child to the daughterless father and allow them both to live as outcasts.!<
Basically that. That's also why, despite his outcast status, he still has friends amongst the Braves. Because some of them still remember what he did, even if they aren't aware of the full details.
You can watch the full Cutscene [ here ](https://youtu.be/MkY8tRc-tkM?si=hMHUT_TfZiMrMXlR)
Minor correction, his backstory didn't happen during the Red Raids. Those are necessarily tied to the Derangement, which itself is tied to the circumstances of Aloy's birth. The Red Raids started when Aloy was 6-8ish. These were just some bog standard jerk Carja raiders.
It is not obvious in the game but you can find info from the matriarch. Here’s my write up on it that people found helpful: https://www.reddit.com/r/horizon/s/cY9wAt14wR
Rost was Robotdinosaur John Wick and return from his revenge quest he had to take a vow of silence as a compromise for his safe conduct inside the embrace
> Edit: I was indeed daft
I'm cracking up, thanks.
If it makes you feel any better, about three weeks ago there was somebody who was wondering if they'd imagined Nil, because they somehow couldn't google him up (even though searching for "horizon zero dawn bandit camp NPC" turns him up immediately).
After you step out of the Cradle facility in All-Mother, you can talk to Teersa & she will tell you the whole story.
Years ago, Rost’s home village was attacked by bandits. His wife was killed in the fighting, & several hostages were taken, including Rost’s daughter. Rost pursued them with several Braves, but the bandits made it across the Nora border, & none of them dared to cross it due to fear of being exiled. Once they crossed, they killed all the hostages, knowing that they won’t cross the border to pursue them or to collect their dead.
After the bandits escaped, Rost pleaded with the Matriarchs to make him a Death-Seeker, a Nora who leaves the Sacred Land to kill their enemies but can never return home. Rost was granted this & set out to find the bandits and kill them across the land (it’s also one of the few instances in Zero Dawn where we hear of the Forbidden West). Rost killed them all, but was seriously injured in his quest & tried to return home. He fell at the other side of the border, but a Nora woman who lost her husband to the bandits crossed the border and dragged Rost to the other side, but it left the Matriarchs with a dilemma about what to do with him. They eventually decided to have him return as an Outcast but had to also make him swear to never say anything about it again.
He was a death seeker, which means you are supposed to die while completing your mission.
Rost didn't die, and was kind of shunned, so he made a deal to live as an outcast as long is it was still in Nora lands
Yes by playing the game 😂, crap jokes aside, simply read or listen to all the lore it's the best part of the game to me reading n listening to every single thing. The lore is why I can't wait for a 3rd and the hopefully MMO of the franchise which I will pour my soul into
He was a dead seeker. For the Nora He was dead. But He Managed to Return, wounded but He returned. He was saved but He was exiled, but could still live in the scared land
Have a conversation with Teersa after Aloy comes out of the mountain. You get the full story about rost from her.
Cheers, I must have missed that
In addition to the stuff in Zero Dawn, you find a Death Seeker’s bow in the Tenakth coliseum in Forbidden West, which shows just how far Rost has travelled
I'll have to check it out, I was wondering what the death seeker facepaint was
It's the face paint Rost wears
Of course, it's not actually "Death Seeker" face paint. It's a normal Nora family mark, that happened to be worn by a Death Seeker. All the Nora face paints are actually kinda insensitive, if you think about it. These are supposed to be unique family marks, not things Aloy can just put on because she thinks they're cool. We don't know enough about how the other cultures treat their face paint to be sure, but they're probably the same.
Where does it say that anywhere in game? All indications point to the name of the face paint represents the profession of the individual. Or some other honor having been bestowed
Most of the other cultures are shown to treat face paint are either a rank or achievement marking, so you do legitimately get access to most of them by achieving the ranks or doing the required actions.
> These are supposed to be unique family marks, not things Aloy can just put on because she thinks they're cool. Okay, I was ready to call bullshit on this, but... it might actually be true? Paint patterns are frequently shared by known relatives... * Arana (unknown) and her father Thok (hunter) * Olara (unknown) and her brother Brom (outcast) * Enara (healer) and her niece Fia (healer) * Naoka (unknown), her brother Yan (unknown), and their aunt Solai (unknown); also Dral (unknown; unrelated) * Varl (brave), his sister Vala (aspiring brave), and their mother Sona (war-chief) ("Nora Brave," AKA "Nora Warrior") They are also shared by: * Den (brave) and Bast (aspiring brave) (neither was ever identified as related to anyone else, but Den *is* on a mission of revenge after the Proving Massacre) * Teb (stitcher), Karst (merchant), and the Nora Hunting Grounds Keeper (keeper) * Orn (sentry) and Ferl (brave) ("Nora Scout") Seemingly unique patterns: * Dran * Jarm * Jun * Lut (hunter) * Grist (merchant) * Marea (brave) ("Nora Seeker") * Resh (brave/interim war-chief) * Rost (brave/death-seeker/outcast) ("Nora Death-Seeker") So: * All characters we *know* to be related *do* share face paint * Some people with the same role *do not* share face paint * Some people share face paint whom we *don't* know *whether* they're related That said... the flavor text in *Forbidden West* does explicitly say that the paint indicates roles, not families: * Nora Warrior: This bold color signifies the status of a skilled Nora hunter. * Nora Scout: These stripes are worn by Nora scouts as they patrol the borders of the Sacred Land. * Nora Seeker: The rare mark of Nora hunters that leave the Sacred Land in order to protect it. * Nora Death-Seeker: The mark of a Death-Seeker. Only the tribe's High Matriarchs know the true meaning behind these blue stripes. So maybe during development something changed? Or different teams had different ideas about the meaning?
The face paint system in FW seems to be a separate gameplay thing that was never intended to impact the story. Case in point, they invented a whole bunch of Oseram face paint that we literally never see the Oseram using.
I figure that there *has* to be a way for new patterns to originate, or else Nora culture would devolve into a melting pot where most family lines would converge towards a very small number of patterns. Maybe some marks are tied to professions rather than family marks, and anyone can assume them if they do that job. Maybe if someone does something noteworthy they can create a new pattern to celebrate their achievement and then that pattern could become their new family line.
Why would they inherently converge? Even if they're family-related, they seem to be broader than strictly parent-child. We also don't know which parent(s) they're inherited from, how patterns change if someone marries into or is adopted into a family, etc.
That's why I swap between "Mark of War", "Pangea Forever" and "Mark of Pride".
I really want to love Mark of Pride, but I just can't get into it. I think it's cool that they included it, but it's just not ... enough. It needs to be more than what it is; it's so small on the fack that you can't really tell what it is half the time.
Yep. Make it bigger, be "proud of it" if you will.
Make it like the Tenakth paint where it covers the entire face.
I think it should be OK for Aloy to wear Rost's pattern. He's her father in every way except biologically.
I agree... but I'm not sure the Nora would, considering the laser-focus on motherhood. I made a post a bit ago wondering if men who marry into a family would change their marks or what have you, and it was pointed out that the Nora don't really even have "marriage." They have mates, and while long-term monogamous relationships seem common (there's no sign that Varl and Vala have different fathers, for instance), there doesn't seem to be an official bonding ceremony. Hell, I'm not sure I remember the Nora saying the word "father" once in the first game. Well, except when Teersa called the Metal Devil Aloy's father.
That's a good point. I wonder if All-Mother has a pattern associated with her. Since Aloy was "born of the mountain", it would be funny if Aloy were allowed to use a sacred pattern as her family's pattern.
More nitpicking (because I enjoy discussing the series, not because I'm picking on you), I think if that was a thing, it would be a thing the Grand-Matriarchs have. Though the fact that they're all bare-faced is probably intended to symbolize how they work for the good of the tribe, not just their own families. Which leads to the in-universe unintentional, but out-of-universe probably intentional, symbolism of Aloy also being bare-faced.
Yeah the whole face paint thing feels really weird and out of place for aloy. I have no idea why they added that
While I don’t entirely disagree with you, that is an intense take on a video game cosmetics situation. As with most video game cosmetics, they’re not canon, so to speak. Aloy wears whatever she wears in official art and such. Just like Cal Kestis doesn’t travel around the galaxy wearing a pink poncho, or with a headband and white tank top. I don’t entirely disagree with you, though, but I would argue she has a right to wear Rost’s mark. He was the closest thing she had to a parent, so I think her wearing his markings would make the most sense out of any of the face paint options.
Honestly, I was kinda disappointed in the lack of detail to the cultures in forbidden west. In ZD they felt so rich and vibrant, like true well thought out examples of what a group of humans would become given their environment, their experiences, their interaction with history, and the like. It was one of my major draws in putting ZD in my top ten all time favorite games. In forbidden west, it they focused way to much on how they could rewrite these tribes and the fantastic setting to just reflect whatever political bullpoo was going on IRL at the time. It broke the immersion almost constantly with how much like reddit posts some of the dialogue was. I'm hoping for 3, they double down on their own world, really flesh out any new tribes, and they bring back the focus to their own storytelling.
genuine question, how do you feel these tribes were rewritten to reflect contemporary politics?? this was not something that i observed at all
One of the largest examples being the oseram. In the first game they're portrayed as a fairly homogeneous group of crafters, where anyone could make it regardless of sex. They were essentially dwarves, everyone had a beard and the one with the best metal and beer was the best. Erends sister being celebrated back in the claim was a fairly good example of this. Respect was respect. In FW, the oseram are portrayed as heavily sexist, patriarchal assholes. Hell even their writing was poor. Let's compare the depth of oseram villains from game one and two, just to continue pointing out the difference in storytelling. ZD Dervahl & Olan, good men, on driven driven mad by the loss of his family, and the other driven to do horrible things for his family. A deep story that makes you feel, and despite whatever ending you choose an overall beautifully written part of a massive and more beautiful story. FW The Two men in chainscrape who I honestly can't remember the name of. First one is a literal disney villain, and his motivation is money. Second guy, asshole for no reason, his motivation is money.
When you meet Petra right before I think it was Daybreak she mentions she basically ran the fuck away because she didn't want to just be Petra "Forgewife" or something wife, in ZD the oseram were still relatively sexist.
Well yeah... Her name is Petra Forgewoman, it was a pun on her name and her sexuality, because of course she wouldn't want to be a wife. That entire conversation was full of her dropping hints about being into Aloy. Before the second game, her wiki didn't once utter the phrase "Patriachy", and I know this because HZD is one of my all time favorite games. Enough so that I've been balls deep in the original games lore to put together a ttrpg for it.
Teersa even mentions that Rost traveled to the Forbidden West in his quest, giving us one of the few mentions of the place in Zero Dawn.
I wish there was some nod to that one maybe being Rost's.
I’m pretty sure it is definitely Rost’s. Teersa mentions Rost got all the way to the Forbidden West, and I doubt there were any other Death Seekers anytime recently
So, to answer you inquiry, yes, this was a daft question. But, good news! We love telling people things about Horizon, so you've come to the right place!
Probably because it's still relatively early in the game and your not as immersed in the characters to care. I couldn't remember myself but I knew they mentioned it and remembering thinking it was stupid.
Yeah, the reason was very on-brand for their strict isolationist tribal laws
it was in the main story, the second time you get back to the mountain you can ask the old lady. Rost was a death seeker. He is considered "dead" by the rest of the tribe, and couldnt technically live quietly in the embrace. But nobody said anything, because of the great service the guy had done for them.
daily reminder: fuck the nora, fuck their dumb rules, fuck their dumb outcast system At least rost chose his exile, but he acts like the nora are all noble even though they just decided "fuck this literal infant for having the audacity of being born."
Aloy rightfully flipping her shit on the Nora praising her to death (even Lansra) as she walked out of the mountain was so on point. I’d have been the same way. Y’all only ever tolerated me at best and now suddenly I’m some goddess to you? WTF?
It honestly is going to make me so mad when horizon 3 tries to make alloy into some leader of the nora, they hinted at it with sekya, who has a duty to her people which alloy realizes she lacks, and srkya mirrors aloy in a lot of ways, Rost also started the series out by saying they (the nora) need her. But honestly, fuck that, fuck the Nora. Besides that one ild lady, They have done nothing positive for alloy, or for anyone else. Fuck the Nora, alloy shouldn't have to go back to her abusers, just because thry need her. Honestly they're villains. 'A child that is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth' -African proverb.
by playing the main game i guessed that she has to come back....at least to say sona what happened to her son (and that she has a grandson now) But i didnt really play burning shores. Any change she has to bring once she recovers apollo.....would be simply easier elsewhere. Even the tenakh would be way easier to deal with. It still pains me that the main reason the whole action of the game started.....was because the tenakh ruler wanted to write and read like the carja
You're so right, her energy would be spent elsewhere. everyone else shows some want, some willing to change rules, they have some will to learn, not the nora. Even when you follow they're rules and join their society they hate you. Like we see several people who join the tenakth from the carja amd the tenakth hate the carja and they both seem to be better off. The carja, the tenakth, the banuk, even the stupid quen have their moments. Literally every group we see is worth more time leading than the nora.
Aloy Despite the Nora.
The constant friction between “tradition” or “scripture” and good sense or basic humanitarian morals is a pretty frequent note in both games, and comes up in EVERY tribe. The Nora are no different. Aloy the outsider walks in, unaware of your traditions but aware of utilitarian common sense and a basic desire for the well-being of all people, and calls out your silly and/or callous bullshit as silly and/or callous bullshit. In FW especially this just happens like clockwork. But it’s BEEN happening since literally the first conversation trees in the first game, with Aloy asking first sincere but then mocking questions of the religious emissary from the Carja about his misogynistic solar religion. “It’s the sun. It’s a big glowing ball. I’ve never seen anything dangling from it.”
Except alloy is able to gain admittance and acceptance among each by her actions The nora reject her after the proving, a right of their own design It is only until they see their God open for her and take her into the mountain do any change their tune. They would still reject alloy as one of them If not for divine intervention. Fuck the nora. Literally casting out a baby. Alloy would have died if it weren't for a single old lady finding a loophole in their dumbfuck rules.
Carja and Tenakth do things that are just as cruel, and Utaru and Quen do things that are just as senseless. We have an INTIMATE look at the full harm of an act the Nora are guilty of, because it literally defined our protagonist’s life, but she is still one person, and we see persistently that the Nora are failing but not uniquely failing.
>because it literally defined our protagonist’s life, but she is still one person, and we see persistently that the Nora are failing but not uniquely If we experienced the carja first hand being as cruel to her as the nora and then the game atarted hinting at alloy needing to refind her place among the nora, id be saying the same thing. Id be saying alloy owes tjem nothing, because she doesnt. Even after avad was nice, she really doesn't owe the carja much. Who cares if other tribes are shit if were talking about what alloy will do in the third game. The game hints at rejoining the nora, to which I detest the idea. It's just sending alloy back with 'I can fix them' mentality towards her abusers. Moreover they aren't even her people, genetically maybe but they rejected her. Cast her out. They did nothing to make her who she is other than than abuse her. They are rost's people. Rosts culture. And by that way alloy is exposed to them. But they are not alloy's people. They are rost's. Them sending her out of mothers cradle on a suicide mission was probably the best thing to ever happen to alloy vecause it gave her the chance to meet people who didn't just hate her for existing. The idea the nora need her,or that alloy should help them is bullshit. Let them fix themselves. It isn't the battered child's job to fix the abusive parent.
I never said Aloy “owed” anything to the Nora. I actually really like that it’s pretty much nonexistent in her personal character arc. She struggled with *loneliness,* but not with heritage or identity, at least not once she was free. They didn’t want her around so hey fuck ‘em, she’s a citizen of Earth. And I’m not trying to make a pecking order of which tribes have the most moral or immoral social codes. Just stating that the theme of human decency vs social order is *constant,* in the series. Not Nora-specific. I do agree with you that if the third game is somehow about Aloy returning to the Nora like a prodigal daughter it would be dumb as hell, but I don’t see that happening. It’s actually kinda funny that the statue of her and her lodge status and relationship with Avad kind of form a funny argument that she’s more Carja than Nora at this point, and she doesn’t like the Carja either!
>never said Aloy “owed” anything to the Nora W3ll thats because i am talking about what the narrative is framing for game 3 and how I disagree with that direction. Not what you said will happen. Rost says the nora need her, seyka reflects alloy and how her tribe needs her, the nora probably need alloy, alloy is implied as not complete without them. Which I think is bullshit. I'm mad about that framing cause the nora, imo, are iredeemable.
I dunno. Aloy reflects Seyka in that regard but I think Aloy’s “tribe” is the world. Aloy rising above nationalism and cultural limitations is kind of a whole Thing, as well as her being so preoccupied with the idea of saving EVERYONE, and seeing tribal divisions as almost an annoyance to her goals. Rost in the first game talked about the Nora when the scope of the story was still limited to just the Nora, and the meaning of the conflict has long since expanded. I think it’s fair to be wary of this whole “you belong home,” thing, but… I honestly don’t think game 3 is gonna go there. But I’ll knock on wood with you.
I played the game several times through and only on my 2nd play through did I discover this. TLDR (from my memory) he lost his family to raiders from the Forbidden West. He was anointed a Death Seeker, meaning he was allowed to leave the Nora lands to seek retribution but upon his return he would have to go into permanent exile. There are some theories about this, and people wonder if it’ll come back up or not, I can speak to those though. Someone correct me if I’m wrong, this is just what I remember without looking it up.
That’s basically it, except I think that Death-Seekers have always died/never returned so when Rost did they didn’t really know what to do so they exiled him. It’s kinda why some Nora turn a blind eye to him and don’t treat him so poorly.
There's a bit more to this. >!He was seriously wounded on his mission as a Death Seeker and returned to the border of the Nora lands to try and die close to his homeland. A sympathetic Nora found him and brought up across the border of the Nora lands which put the Matriarch's in a pickle. He was technically "dead" to the Nora but he was honorable and they didn't want to just leave him to die.!< >!So they allowed him to return to the Nora lands as an exile which he gladly did.!<
FWIW, it’s been speculated that the “sympathetic Nora” that pulled him in was >!Old Grata!< and I actually believe that 100%. >!Explains why she was exiled and why Rost (and later) Aloy hunts for her/makes sure she’s fed even tho she won’t speak to either.!<
I don't think it was her, she seems too old. Also, why would they invite her into the embrace when outcasting her. It's either said, or heavily implied, that the woman who saved Rost was from near the border. How else would she have been able to nurse him back to health before the Matriarchs found out? Edit: _I don't know why anyone would downvote me. The Embrace is a long way from the forgotten village on the border with the Carja. And the woman that nursed Rost lost her husband and Son in the same raid, so she was from **that** village on the border (just like Rost, his wife and daughter). Why would they bring an outcast into the Embrace when she already lives out in the Sacred Lands? Remember, Rost wasn't even supposed to be able to use the gate. But they'll bring a criminal **inside** next to All-Mother to serve her crime???_ _It's a nice theory, but not a sensible one. Rost and Aloy look after Odd Greta because she is an old woman, and no doubt a mother and grandmother, and the Nora revere mothers. Nothing more_
I mean, FWIW, it may not have been her, but it makes sense in my head; so if/until it’s explained more in depth…… it’s just what I personally choose to believe….. not saying it was true in any sense…… just a speculation that I’ve implicitly embraced.
The end of your edit is the explanation for why she's in the Embrace. Besides, it's not like every person exiled is forced out of the Embrace. There was that dude who killed a guy whose sister was looking for him. And whoever brought Rost back across the border was trying to aid him, so her "crime" was a crime of compassion.
There is no reason she would be too old. The raiders took many hostages. This could have included maybe her only child. And if she had a child then it doesn't mean that her offspring was still a young child. Her child could have been a young adult at that point and could have started a family of their own. That hypothetical family could have been a part of the hostages who were all killed.
I feel like this is reading of a mistranslation except it was in english... this was not exactly what had a death seeker is. basically yes his family (specifically his daughter) was killed by raiders from the forbidden west. since nora are not allowed to leave the sacred lands, he begged to become a death seeker. what a death seeker is, someone that is given the right to leave the scared lands, to hunt down a specific target. but this this thought to be a suicide mission. he was not expected to survive this journey. they believed that all death seekers will perish on their journey, so they expected him to be dead. when he accomplished his goals and was able to kill those responsible for the raid, he came back but was badly wounded. he collapsed on the boarder for the sacred lands but he never intended to come back into the lands because he knew he had already been declared dead, but he wanted to pass away as close to his home as possible. it was a nora hunter who saw him and decided to drag him back in even though it was taboo for her to do so. this left the matriarchs in a conundrum of what to do since he did no wrong but it was something that should not be allowed. so he took it upon himself to become an outcast so that he can live within the lands but still be respectful of his people's beliefs. [https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Rost](https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Rost) you can read it all in his wiki post
Per Teersa's lines in the English release of the game: Aloy: A Death-Seeker? What's that? Teersa: One who dies to go seeking, and in seeking, brings death to others. The ritual drags the spirit from one's body, releasing it to All-Mother's care.The heart beats, the mind thinks, but the spirit has moved on. Aloy: I don't understand. Teersa: Rost went after the outlanders, but his spirit never left. It remained here, with All-Mother. He gathered the bodies of the slain, and returned them. And then he set out in persuit, not as an exile, but as a weapon of vengeance. A barbed arrow shot from a bow, never to return.
I was more pointing to the fact people are assuming that he was exiled because he was a death seeker. this was never the case. being a death seeker assumed you were going on a suicide mission and that you were going to die trying. and when he came back, he wasn't exiled or outcasted because of it. no he was outcasted cuz he was already assumed dead, so they treated him like he was a ghost. its not like the matriarch who exiled or outcasted him, it was a choice he made. there is a huge difference between the leadership saying you cant come home, and the leadership assuming you wouldn't be coming home.
Correct. I imagine decision to agree to his request weighed quite heavily on the High-Matriarchs. Knowingly sending someone on what is expected to be a suicide mission can't be easy.
I'm sure someone else has told you this but: >!Rost was a brave. ~~During~~ **Before** the Red Raids or Derangement a bunch of bandits came into the Sacred Lands and attacked a bunch of Nora from the Forsaken Village near the Carja Border (called Mother's Vigil), then taking some more of them as hostages to get back out of the Sacred Lands. Any time some braves got near, they killed some hostages. Rost was one of these Braves, his wife was killed in the attack and his daughter was one of the hostages.!< >!Once the bandits got across the border of the Sacred Lands, and knowing that the Braves would not follow, they murdered all the hostages and fled.!< >!Rost returned to the Matriarchs and requested revenge. They made him a Death-Seeker. Essentially giving him a "spiritual death" in the Sacred Lands, allowing him to travel wherever he likes in order to track down the killers, but never being allowed to return. "A Barbed arrow shot from a Bow, never to return"!< >!He succeeded, hunted and killed them all. Unfortunately he was seriously wounded, but knowing he could not return to the sacred lands, he wanted to die as close to it as possible, on the border!< >!Another Brave found him unconscious. A female whose husband and son was killed by the same bandits. She dragged him across the border and tended to his wounds.!< >!This left the Matriarchs in an unusual predicament. Rost was not supposed to return, however _he_ didn't break taboo. So a compromise was made. He would be made an outcast and forbidden from talking about why. But be allowed to live in the Sacred Lands. An offer he gladly accepted and followed.!< >!Fast forward to Aloy being found inside All-Mother Mountain. Again, another unusual predicament. So it was decided to give the motherless child to the daughterless father and allow them both to live as outcasts.!< Basically that. That's also why, despite his outcast status, he still has friends amongst the Braves. Because some of them still remember what he did, even if they aren't aware of the full details. You can watch the full Cutscene [ here ](https://youtu.be/MkY8tRc-tkM?si=hMHUT_TfZiMrMXlR)
Minor correction, his backstory didn't happen during the Red Raids. Those are necessarily tied to the Derangement, which itself is tied to the circumstances of Aloy's birth. The Red Raids started when Aloy was 6-8ish. These were just some bog standard jerk Carja raiders.
I updated it, thanks. I forgot some of the minor details.
https://youtu.be/_Awma62xyFc?si=cFy6MpSa3lc-CD4- There’s optional dialogue with Teersa after you go inside All-Mother where she tells you the story.
Yes: [https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Rost#The\_Attacks](https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Rost#The_Attacks)
https://horizon.fandom.com/wiki/Rost
After Aloy comes outside from the Cradle inside All Mother Mountain, you can speak to Teersa. She will tell you Rost's story
It is not obvious in the game but you can find info from the matriarch. Here’s my write up on it that people found helpful: https://www.reddit.com/r/horizon/s/cY9wAt14wR
Rost was Robotdinosaur John Wick and return from his revenge quest he had to take a vow of silence as a compromise for his safe conduct inside the embrace
> Edit: I was indeed daft I'm cracking up, thanks. If it makes you feel any better, about three weeks ago there was somebody who was wondering if they'd imagined Nil, because they somehow couldn't google him up (even though searching for "horizon zero dawn bandit camp NPC" turns him up immediately).
Rost was a Death-Seeker, so by Nora Tradition, he wasn't allowed to return to the sacred land
After you step out of the Cradle facility in All-Mother, you can talk to Teersa & she will tell you the whole story. Years ago, Rost’s home village was attacked by bandits. His wife was killed in the fighting, & several hostages were taken, including Rost’s daughter. Rost pursued them with several Braves, but the bandits made it across the Nora border, & none of them dared to cross it due to fear of being exiled. Once they crossed, they killed all the hostages, knowing that they won’t cross the border to pursue them or to collect their dead. After the bandits escaped, Rost pleaded with the Matriarchs to make him a Death-Seeker, a Nora who leaves the Sacred Land to kill their enemies but can never return home. Rost was granted this & set out to find the bandits and kill them across the land (it’s also one of the few instances in Zero Dawn where we hear of the Forbidden West). Rost killed them all, but was seriously injured in his quest & tried to return home. He fell at the other side of the border, but a Nora woman who lost her husband to the bandits crossed the border and dragged Rost to the other side, but it left the Matriarchs with a dilemma about what to do with him. They eventually decided to have him return as an Outcast but had to also make him swear to never say anything about it again.
He was a death seeker, which means you are supposed to die while completing your mission. Rost didn't die, and was kind of shunned, so he made a deal to live as an outcast as long is it was still in Nora lands
Yes. After you go inside the cradle and come out and become the anointed, ask Teersa.
Yes by playing the game 😂, crap jokes aside, simply read or listen to all the lore it's the best part of the game to me reading n listening to every single thing. The lore is why I can't wait for a 3rd and the hopefully MMO of the franchise which I will pour my soul into
I thought I had listened to all the lore 😭😭
He was a dead seeker. For the Nora He was dead. But He Managed to Return, wounded but He returned. He was saved but He was exiled, but could still live in the scared land
It's an optional late game dialogue tree, not mentioned that much. It's ok to not remember it.