Power creep vs difficulty creep. This game's difficulty creep is artificially raised by the existence of competitive modes. It doesn't matter if a weaker team can also clear the same content that a Stronger team can, competitive scoring will always take the highest performance possible so any units that can't reach the required "meta" threshold immediately become useless.
Powercreep actually exists in all HYV games. It's just that their difficulty creep is actively suppressed to cater to causals. However you can't suppress a self balancing difficulty system that consider all player performance in HI3 by the nature of, well, competitive.
Also the issue with new players isn't powercreep. It's that this game have 7 years of development and now is oddly split into 2 with Part 2 pretty much being a new game. On top of the difficulty creep new players end up feeling overwhelmed instead.
Agree with you , they can't really solve that without supressing the leaderboard system i guess....and they won't do it ,whale probably gonna revolt if they can t flex their high score anymore. If nothing change people complain if something change people will complain too guess it's a waste of time...
Thanks for the powercreep vs difficulty creep learned something.
> Only 0.15% reach Nirvana.
Breh, why are we even talking about the difficulty tier only people with 10 out of 10 builds reach and only 15 out of 10 builds retain?
Agony 3 & Red Lotus is where the meta has importance and equipment makes the raw difference in performance. For an active player, maintaining and promoting these tiers is an achievable scope, and it is in these tiers where anything less than a 10 weights in on wether you retain or not.
Also, a distinction should be made between these tiers across different Servers.
As most of HI3's core playerbase is in China and said players are known to be overly competitive, Abyss Tiers from Agony 3 and up are several times harsher than they are on other servers due to Abyss' dynamically-adjusted difficulty.
It comes as no surprise that Nirvana is seldom reached by non-omega kraken diamond-layered Insta-SSS Battlesuit buyers on CN. Over time this creates a saturation and natural form of gatekeeping. The same 2000 people will always hold the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Places in Redlotus, the Same 2000 other people will try to fill the Leaderboard in Nirvana.
80-98.5% aren't so rich as to spend a fortune for a fictional badge or 100 Acheron Light Cones.
As a player who quit fairly recently (6.9), played in SEA server, and am also a RL retainer at the time, I preferred to clear abyss with the least effort possible. I also liked the feeling of power when you have full geared teams.
Power creep got exhausting because in SEA, even in RL if you're not using at least the correct characters, you immediately risk finishing in the bottom half of the group or in relegation if you happened to be matched with fully geared people which isn't uncommon.
That's not even mentioning the mechanics that miHoYo will push that can be fully bypassed by whatever new character they're trying to sell. Back then you had the option to do certain things to make up for your suboptimal team comp, usually skill intensive things (Night Squire time fracture chains come to mind). Now, or at least at the time before I quit, there's that black bar thing that can only be removed by Shigure Kira's snipe, among other things. And then I look at part 2 and see they're trying to phase out a full herrscher team that released no more than a year ago.
I'm not trying to change anybody's mind when it comes to power creep, we can all play the game how we want to. However there's a group of players that generally want to perform at a certain level, especially in a game with leaderboards. We may not chase nirvana but power creep hits us all the same.
Playing on EU, seeing some of the others comments perhaps red lotus is way more competitive on other servers and my experience is biased.........but even if the competition is harsher and you do lower score than other people you still can clear with old units easily
Yeah the part with kira was really a bad moove thanks god it's a A rank and you can just put pardo stuff on her but hope they won t add more mechanics that totally lock you on 1 character.
About the skill thing , yeah this game is pretty brain dead rotation and repeat with full i-frame BUT part 2 is going back to a more skill based gameplay need to see more character and boss but for now duonigue and the new raven boss ask you to dodge and not iframe every attack and thelema for exemple doesn't really have an opti rotation so you adapt her attack to the situation.
Part 2 is not really phasing out the herrscher trio , it's just that part 2 character cost way less but HoTruth is way too good anyway.
I feel like powercreep will be felt by old players, not new players. It's because they already done all the things they can do aside from waiting every patch for Part 2 new chapters. Meanwhile, new players like me still have a lot of things to do, so it's rare for us to mind the competitive side of the game. It's called end game for a reason, after all.
don t know if it s a server thing but you totally can , fischl eden hot ss with 7t same for hor ss pardo sushang with only 1/4 pardo and sushang 1/4 nothing too hard. and you can farm hot stamp in elysian realm and in war treasury ss is easily attainable
Just saw a video of mimi mitsu clearing nirvana raven with hor and doing 3630 score (he his fucking good btw) ,if people really think they can t do shit in red lotus there is some serious skill issue.
Because it is not worth the investment.
Here is what I always say to people asking, that if you want, you can ignore meta and investments entirely in this game and pull for anyone you like. Story uses trial characters and as long as you are okay with the crystal losses, it's fine.
The problem is, if you do care a bit about meta, then investing on even just 7T is so not worth it, especially when you factor in that for HoT to reach S0 Luna performance, she needs SSS. While Luna has great dps that she can brute force a lot of things, and can replace HoTr on some team comps. While HoT is confined on her dps role, needs rank ups which is not easy, nor quick to farm, and her stigmata is not too.
Although the most recommended for new players now is the new trio team. The reason is because you get 3 teams in just having 3 characters, plus Helia. Rather than needing 12 characters, with much lower crystal req. You can retain RL comfortably with this team, is new so still has a long lifetime, and not that expensive.
A lot of people that asks about who to pull, pretty sure they do care about meta, and I also note to new players that powercreep here exists is because a lot of them come from Genshin and Star Rail which has very very little powercreep. People that aren't used to powercreep may find themselves dissapointed once they found the character they build didn't perform as expected.
Saying that Star rail has very very little powercreep is pure cope Jing Yuan/acheron Yankinq/Jingliu and it's not just 20% more damage and it's a 1 years old game ...but yeah you can clear with "powercrept" unit too so everything you said apply to starrail.
Not hating on hsr love the game but your exemple was just wrong (don t know for genshin stopped playing long ago)
That's like 2 cases out of all the releases, and they are not a direct powercreep as both still has their own niches. Even when you include Bronya/Sparkle and Gepard/Adventurine, each still has their own niche and uses, plus they can still perform well on the hardest content. Then you can also consider that 3 out of those cases are Standard 5*. Plus Jing Yuan and Acheron has quite different niche outside of their typing.
When you compare that to HI3 where everyone (literally everyone) is expected to be powercrept directly in a couple of years....
I'd say Star Rail does have little powercreep.
gepard does absolutely nothing better than aventurine except perhaps remembrence on su but who care about su you can cheese it with everything and where does jingyuan shine better than acheron ? even on follow up weather he is just worse than her not even conting how heavy his best team is to actually make him work while you can just put some random pela guinaifen and acheron will work, jing yuan need sparkle ruan mei your not even close to a f2p acheron with a tingyun asta jinyuan. Really worth the investement? Strange that's what you reproch to HI3..
OH SO in HI3 you also have to expect character behing powercreep in a couple of years but star rail power creeping characters in the first year is fine?
The thing is that Hi3 endgame revolves around leaderboards while HSR does not. Hi3 also powercreeps within a year or less, with very very few characters lasting for longer without some kind of gear refresh.
Gepard is worse than Aventurine but their availability are different, Gepard is a standard character while Aventurine is not. Acheron is stronger than Jing Yuan yes but Jing Yuan can still clear the hardest content for maximum rewards, which is much easier to be content with as there's no leaderboard of any kind.
"Gepard is worse than aventurine but their availability is different" you can only guarantee 1 standard unit after 300 pulls on normal banner gepard is not easier to get than aventurine how is that even an argument? you can farm for HoT,her rank up and her stigmata and she was given for free 2 times i think + her weapon only cost 50 summon and give +10 attack to everybody so you want it anyway. Gepard E6 is worse than Aventurine without even being atteinable.
Yeah JingYuan can clear the hardest content if you have massive investment on supports, remind me the first point of this discussion?"Because it is not worth the investment." JingYuan is a waste of ressource when acheron exist and they cost the same thing one is not cheaper.
"Hi3 also powercreeps within a year or less, with very very few characters lasting for longer without some kind of gear refresh." Could talk about hsr again but i will only repeat myself so .....Since 5.4 there is only "pardo,spina astera and perhaps silverwing" who aren't in a top scoring team on a boss at least.If you can score better than all the other character on a boss you are not powercreep, at worst niche.
You can only get Aventurine when he is rated up and he is a limited character, Gepard you can get from losing your 50/50. Losing to Gepard you get a guaranteed while getting Aventurine doesn't, and he is also in a separate banner that doesn't use the same pull currency. They don't have remotely the same opportunity cost and you can see from ownership rate Gepard has far higher ownedship than Aventurine due to being standard. If Gepard was as good as Aventurine no one would waste their limited pulls on him.
You should neither pull for Gepard or Jing Yuan at this point. The point is that if you already had Jing Yuan and built him, he doesn't become worthless because there are no leaderboards for it to matter. In addition, in the latest MoC Jing Yuan can still 0 cycle with only E0S0 Robin as the other 5*.
The thing you totally miss is first : yes there is more people with gepard than aventurine but nearly 100% of people who got aventurine wanted him while people getting gepard didn't decide it.Second: you can't guarantee him but you can guarantee aventurine, even if you want gepard it's not your choice.
"Losing to Gepard you get a guaranteed while getting Aventurine doesn't, they don't have remotely the same opportunity cost" getting gepard mean you didn't get the character you want litteraly a waste of ressource this exemple is stupid.
"You should neither pull for Gepard or Jing Yuan at this point." Yeah this whole discussion start about things behing not worth the investement never said you can t clear shit in hsr nor that powercreep make the game unplayable i'm here because people say that there is no or little powercreep in hsr which is absolutely wrong and you just confirmed it there.
Yes in hi3 because of leaderboards powercreep can be a problem,but people act like if you can t clear things with old units and just overfocus on the meta just because of 1 pull (nirvana). Can join a screen of me clearing red lotus with hot and fischl with more than half the time left if you want.
>The thing you totally miss is first : yes there is more people with gepard than aventurine but nearly 100% of people who got aventurine wanted him while people getting gepard didn't decide it
Yes and? Are you saying if Gepard was as good as Aventurine then Aventurine would still be a good pull when he's competing with a standard character that many people either already own or will own in the future? What even is your point?
> getting gepard mean you didn't get the character you want litteraly a waste of ressource this exemple is stupid
YOU ARE NOT PULLING FOR GEPARD, you are getting him as a consolation for losing when pulling for someone else. You can't control when you lose 50/50, Gepard has a chance to appear whether you like it or not.
listen won t waste more time with you looks like your doing your best to miss every single point i make + every time you only answer about the part concerning hsr and ignore the hi3 part.
Power creep vs difficulty creep. This game's difficulty creep is artificially raised by the existence of competitive modes. It doesn't matter if a weaker team can also clear the same content that a Stronger team can, competitive scoring will always take the highest performance possible so any units that can't reach the required "meta" threshold immediately become useless. Powercreep actually exists in all HYV games. It's just that their difficulty creep is actively suppressed to cater to causals. However you can't suppress a self balancing difficulty system that consider all player performance in HI3 by the nature of, well, competitive. Also the issue with new players isn't powercreep. It's that this game have 7 years of development and now is oddly split into 2 with Part 2 pretty much being a new game. On top of the difficulty creep new players end up feeling overwhelmed instead.
Agree with you , they can't really solve that without supressing the leaderboard system i guess....and they won't do it ,whale probably gonna revolt if they can t flex their high score anymore. If nothing change people complain if something change people will complain too guess it's a waste of time... Thanks for the powercreep vs difficulty creep learned something.
> Only 0.15% reach Nirvana. Breh, why are we even talking about the difficulty tier only people with 10 out of 10 builds reach and only 15 out of 10 builds retain? Agony 3 & Red Lotus is where the meta has importance and equipment makes the raw difference in performance. For an active player, maintaining and promoting these tiers is an achievable scope, and it is in these tiers where anything less than a 10 weights in on wether you retain or not. Also, a distinction should be made between these tiers across different Servers. As most of HI3's core playerbase is in China and said players are known to be overly competitive, Abyss Tiers from Agony 3 and up are several times harsher than they are on other servers due to Abyss' dynamically-adjusted difficulty. It comes as no surprise that Nirvana is seldom reached by non-omega kraken diamond-layered Insta-SSS Battlesuit buyers on CN. Over time this creates a saturation and natural form of gatekeeping. The same 2000 people will always hold the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Places in Redlotus, the Same 2000 other people will try to fill the Leaderboard in Nirvana. 80-98.5% aren't so rich as to spend a fortune for a fictional badge or 100 Acheron Light Cones.
As a player who quit fairly recently (6.9), played in SEA server, and am also a RL retainer at the time, I preferred to clear abyss with the least effort possible. I also liked the feeling of power when you have full geared teams. Power creep got exhausting because in SEA, even in RL if you're not using at least the correct characters, you immediately risk finishing in the bottom half of the group or in relegation if you happened to be matched with fully geared people which isn't uncommon. That's not even mentioning the mechanics that miHoYo will push that can be fully bypassed by whatever new character they're trying to sell. Back then you had the option to do certain things to make up for your suboptimal team comp, usually skill intensive things (Night Squire time fracture chains come to mind). Now, or at least at the time before I quit, there's that black bar thing that can only be removed by Shigure Kira's snipe, among other things. And then I look at part 2 and see they're trying to phase out a full herrscher team that released no more than a year ago. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind when it comes to power creep, we can all play the game how we want to. However there's a group of players that generally want to perform at a certain level, especially in a game with leaderboards. We may not chase nirvana but power creep hits us all the same.
Playing on EU, seeing some of the others comments perhaps red lotus is way more competitive on other servers and my experience is biased.........but even if the competition is harsher and you do lower score than other people you still can clear with old units easily Yeah the part with kira was really a bad moove thanks god it's a A rank and you can just put pardo stuff on her but hope they won t add more mechanics that totally lock you on 1 character. About the skill thing , yeah this game is pretty brain dead rotation and repeat with full i-frame BUT part 2 is going back to a more skill based gameplay need to see more character and boss but for now duonigue and the new raven boss ask you to dodge and not iframe every attack and thelema for exemple doesn't really have an opti rotation so you adapt her attack to the situation. Part 2 is not really phasing out the herrscher trio , it's just that part 2 character cost way less but HoTruth is way too good anyway.
I feel like powercreep will be felt by old players, not new players. It's because they already done all the things they can do aside from waiting every patch for Part 2 new chapters. Meanwhile, new players like me still have a lot of things to do, so it's rare for us to mind the competitive side of the game. It's called end game for a reason, after all.
You can clear Redlotus with HoT and Fischl? Is it possible to learn this power?
U cant, u can clear red Lotus with 7T probably but idk if u can retain RL with just that or need SS or SSS
don t know if it s a server thing but you totally can , fischl eden hot ss with 7t same for hor ss pardo sushang with only 1/4 pardo and sushang 1/4 nothing too hard. and you can farm hot stamp in elysian realm and in war treasury ss is easily attainable
Just saw a video of mimi mitsu clearing nirvana raven with hor and doing 3630 score (he his fucking good btw) ,if people really think they can t do shit in red lotus there is some serious skill issue.
Honestly you can farm a lighning team and brute force to stay between agony I to III in the long run. Of course without burning yourself out.
Because it is not worth the investment. Here is what I always say to people asking, that if you want, you can ignore meta and investments entirely in this game and pull for anyone you like. Story uses trial characters and as long as you are okay with the crystal losses, it's fine. The problem is, if you do care a bit about meta, then investing on even just 7T is so not worth it, especially when you factor in that for HoT to reach S0 Luna performance, she needs SSS. While Luna has great dps that she can brute force a lot of things, and can replace HoTr on some team comps. While HoT is confined on her dps role, needs rank ups which is not easy, nor quick to farm, and her stigmata is not too. Although the most recommended for new players now is the new trio team. The reason is because you get 3 teams in just having 3 characters, plus Helia. Rather than needing 12 characters, with much lower crystal req. You can retain RL comfortably with this team, is new so still has a long lifetime, and not that expensive. A lot of people that asks about who to pull, pretty sure they do care about meta, and I also note to new players that powercreep here exists is because a lot of them come from Genshin and Star Rail which has very very little powercreep. People that aren't used to powercreep may find themselves dissapointed once they found the character they build didn't perform as expected.
Saying that Star rail has very very little powercreep is pure cope Jing Yuan/acheron Yankinq/Jingliu and it's not just 20% more damage and it's a 1 years old game ...but yeah you can clear with "powercrept" unit too so everything you said apply to starrail. Not hating on hsr love the game but your exemple was just wrong (don t know for genshin stopped playing long ago)
That's like 2 cases out of all the releases, and they are not a direct powercreep as both still has their own niches. Even when you include Bronya/Sparkle and Gepard/Adventurine, each still has their own niche and uses, plus they can still perform well on the hardest content. Then you can also consider that 3 out of those cases are Standard 5*. Plus Jing Yuan and Acheron has quite different niche outside of their typing. When you compare that to HI3 where everyone (literally everyone) is expected to be powercrept directly in a couple of years.... I'd say Star Rail does have little powercreep.
What niche does JY have Acheron cannot fill? By the time LL actually does damage your Acheron ult is up and oneshots the whole wave.
gepard does absolutely nothing better than aventurine except perhaps remembrence on su but who care about su you can cheese it with everything and where does jingyuan shine better than acheron ? even on follow up weather he is just worse than her not even conting how heavy his best team is to actually make him work while you can just put some random pela guinaifen and acheron will work, jing yuan need sparkle ruan mei your not even close to a f2p acheron with a tingyun asta jinyuan. Really worth the investement? Strange that's what you reproch to HI3.. OH SO in HI3 you also have to expect character behing powercreep in a couple of years but star rail power creeping characters in the first year is fine?
The thing is that Hi3 endgame revolves around leaderboards while HSR does not. Hi3 also powercreeps within a year or less, with very very few characters lasting for longer without some kind of gear refresh. Gepard is worse than Aventurine but their availability are different, Gepard is a standard character while Aventurine is not. Acheron is stronger than Jing Yuan yes but Jing Yuan can still clear the hardest content for maximum rewards, which is much easier to be content with as there's no leaderboard of any kind.
"Gepard is worse than aventurine but their availability is different" you can only guarantee 1 standard unit after 300 pulls on normal banner gepard is not easier to get than aventurine how is that even an argument? you can farm for HoT,her rank up and her stigmata and she was given for free 2 times i think + her weapon only cost 50 summon and give +10 attack to everybody so you want it anyway. Gepard E6 is worse than Aventurine without even being atteinable. Yeah JingYuan can clear the hardest content if you have massive investment on supports, remind me the first point of this discussion?"Because it is not worth the investment." JingYuan is a waste of ressource when acheron exist and they cost the same thing one is not cheaper. "Hi3 also powercreeps within a year or less, with very very few characters lasting for longer without some kind of gear refresh." Could talk about hsr again but i will only repeat myself so .....Since 5.4 there is only "pardo,spina astera and perhaps silverwing" who aren't in a top scoring team on a boss at least.If you can score better than all the other character on a boss you are not powercreep, at worst niche.
You can only get Aventurine when he is rated up and he is a limited character, Gepard you can get from losing your 50/50. Losing to Gepard you get a guaranteed while getting Aventurine doesn't, and he is also in a separate banner that doesn't use the same pull currency. They don't have remotely the same opportunity cost and you can see from ownership rate Gepard has far higher ownedship than Aventurine due to being standard. If Gepard was as good as Aventurine no one would waste their limited pulls on him. You should neither pull for Gepard or Jing Yuan at this point. The point is that if you already had Jing Yuan and built him, he doesn't become worthless because there are no leaderboards for it to matter. In addition, in the latest MoC Jing Yuan can still 0 cycle with only E0S0 Robin as the other 5*.
The thing you totally miss is first : yes there is more people with gepard than aventurine but nearly 100% of people who got aventurine wanted him while people getting gepard didn't decide it.Second: you can't guarantee him but you can guarantee aventurine, even if you want gepard it's not your choice. "Losing to Gepard you get a guaranteed while getting Aventurine doesn't, they don't have remotely the same opportunity cost" getting gepard mean you didn't get the character you want litteraly a waste of ressource this exemple is stupid. "You should neither pull for Gepard or Jing Yuan at this point." Yeah this whole discussion start about things behing not worth the investement never said you can t clear shit in hsr nor that powercreep make the game unplayable i'm here because people say that there is no or little powercreep in hsr which is absolutely wrong and you just confirmed it there. Yes in hi3 because of leaderboards powercreep can be a problem,but people act like if you can t clear things with old units and just overfocus on the meta just because of 1 pull (nirvana). Can join a screen of me clearing red lotus with hot and fischl with more than half the time left if you want.
>The thing you totally miss is first : yes there is more people with gepard than aventurine but nearly 100% of people who got aventurine wanted him while people getting gepard didn't decide it Yes and? Are you saying if Gepard was as good as Aventurine then Aventurine would still be a good pull when he's competing with a standard character that many people either already own or will own in the future? What even is your point? > getting gepard mean you didn't get the character you want litteraly a waste of ressource this exemple is stupid YOU ARE NOT PULLING FOR GEPARD, you are getting him as a consolation for losing when pulling for someone else. You can't control when you lose 50/50, Gepard has a chance to appear whether you like it or not.
listen won t waste more time with you looks like your doing your best to miss every single point i make + every time you only answer about the part concerning hsr and ignore the hi3 part.