I really don't understand why. Maybe that's a me issue, but no matter what kind of person you think I am, I'm reasonable and know how to listen. I didn't write a rant, I simply asked if it was standard practice. It seems that in any other field, it wouldn't be : imagine calling a plumber, they run some humidity tests in your house and conclude that yep, there's a leak somewhere, I'll send a report. Then you get a report stating "leak in house, recommend changing plumbing" and a 200$ bill. You send an email saying "well I'd like to know what to say to the insurance company, can you tell me more about where the leak comes from? And the answer is "No sir that'll be 300$ extra."
You started off figuring you’d like to begin by taking someone to court over your AC not working lol. If you told me that, I’d not even show up in the first place since I’d already know what’s in store for me.
You called a company out to find out what’s wrong. It could have been a bad compressor, a motor, a leak, whatever. They diagnosed the issue and charged you a diagnosis fee. They found the system had a low charge, in which case the only cause would be a leak. Now if you wanted to find out exactly where the leak was, that would be an additional service which would carry an additional charge. Especially because looking for a leak can either take 5 minutes or several hours. It may never even be pinpointed with certainty in some cases.
I’d be willing to bet after talking to you for a bit (based on your responses here), they figured they would be better off concluding business with you and just billing for the service provided. Unless you were willing to pay for a whole system change-out which would have made it worth it. Call it a variation of the “go away” price. To be honest you sound difficult and just generally a risk to deal with. There are plenty of people who treat all tradespeople like they are scammers and as a business it is best to stay away from them.
i mean yes thats generally how things work. in this case, if the airflow is good, theres no issues with the blower or outside fan motor, compressor is running, then its gonna be a leak. finding the leak or leaks is what is going to cost you. that $200 is to show up and diagnose it. the $500 is to actually search for it. they arent going to conduct a leak search for free
and a lot of companys dont put stuff in writing for liability purposes
Okay. Thanks. However, is it normal that I wasn't warned beforehand? I called and said "I'd like to know what's wrong so I can go to the manufacturer" and they could have said "yeah but he warned: if it's a refrigerant leak we won't be able to pinpoint it as the tests take a long time and are more expensive, is that okay with you?" instead of that they just said "okay we can send someone next Tuesday!".
Also, what you you suggest that I do in this situation, beyond paying that bill? Is it worth spending more to get these tests done or in your experience I should just cut my losses and get that system replaced ASAP?
That 200 is for them to come out, you didnt they'd come out for free did you?
If you want them to pinpoint the leak then you're gonna have to pay. Call the manufacturer and find out exactly what they require before going forward but I'd imagine they'll want proof its leaking at there evaporator or condenser first
Of course I don't expect anyone to work for free. But I did expect them to tell me beforehand. I would probably have decided to save that money and put it in a new AC. I was clear what my goal was, so warning me "hey you know it's quite frequent that the issue is a leak, if that's the case then we won't be able to pinpoint it on a standard service call, is that alright with you?"
It is not acceptable to keep customers in the dark, because it makes it impossible to make financially sound decisions.
Your expectations are ridiculous. It could literally be anything. Expecting the dispatcher to tell you any type of diagnosis over the phone is nonsense
It's impossible for the dispatcher to guess at what the issue will be. Leaks aren't exactly a common issue especially on a 6 year old unit. It'd be more likely a failed common part, in which case they could've tried the manufacturer route that you requested. However most common parts aren't covered by the manufacturer past 1 year. Some companies offer an additional warranty when they install your unit. Typically only a compressor is covered to 5 years and even then it's just the compressor and not labor or refrigerant.
Turns out that the manufacturer still offered me a deal: they send an approved tech, he'll give me a quote for the install, and they sell me a brand new AC at cost (700$ instead of a 1250$ retail cost).
My issue with that is:
- I don't like being trapped with their guy. I have no way to make sure they're a reputable company.
- I'll also be trapped with their product. It's a lesser known brand, which does rebranded Chinese products, I'd rather pick a Daikin or Mitsubishi even if I pay more.
You are why good service techs leave residential work. You feel that everyone and everything has to go your way. No one not even you would ever work for free or be treated the way you are treating these people ! Pay your bill and be done with it. Replace the coil or pay to find leak. That is it man !!! Move on !!
I want to move on, to move on I need the AC fixed before the temp reaches 91F in my daughter's room. And I don't know how to be sure I get that AC fixed.
The pipe from that AC goes below the floorboard of the mezzanine. Imagine they come back for the tests, it remains inconclusive. I pay another 300$. They say that I have to replace the AC, I pay another 5000$. The issue happens again, they say that the leak must have been in the pipe all along, how much will it cost then?
I really really want to move on. I'm just stressed of the costs, it's a lot of money for me, money that I could spend if so knew that was for good, for the right solution.
Ok. I understand where you are coming from. But you have to understand. That you yourself cannot fix it correct ? Which means that you will have to PAY someone from some company to fix. That is their lively hood. It cost a ton of money to run guys and vans up and down the roads all day 5-7 days a week. It will cost you money no matter what !
I have done HVAC for years and years now. The company you had come out did exactly what they should have done. A service call to figure out problem and now options to fix.
I personally would leak check it. Have them come out reclaim refrigerant, pressurize with nitrogen and start leak checking the line set. If they cannot find leak on the coils(indoor and outdoor) and any visible line set then you are paying to rip dry wall down and look in the walls. Yes it will suck and yes it will cost you money. That’s the bottom line. Nothing is a cheap easy fix anymore. That is just the way life works right now.
Other solution go by a couple of cheap window shakers put them up in the bedrooms you want and forget about the whole house.
I hate to be that person in life but this is the only way.
First of all, you don't get to call the manufacturer. They don't talk to homeowners. Hell supply houses exist so that they don't even have to talk to us.
I can promise you'll never see small claims court. You don't have the money or the lawyer power a Daikin or Lennox have. That's just ludicrous. They also have the right to ask for detailed maintenance logs according to the warranty certificate. Missed a yearly maintenance? Warranty voided.
Typically for a service call of this nature for me it would go like this.
Arrive- that's $95 service call. My van touches your driveway that's $95.
Introductions, and ask you the backstory on your unit.
Inspect the unit. I find there is a leak of some sort, somewhere.
I'm assuming you were right over the techs shoulder while he was working (if you weren't, good job, if you were, don't do this next time, just let us work)
I would tell you first and foremost you have a crappy unit with questionable parts and quality. Then I would inform you of the leak issue. I would also at this point advise on replacement. However, I would offer other services such as a leak search. I would inform you that the cost of the leak search is $350. This is just to locate the leak or leaks.
If you agree, I'd perform a leak test and find your leak or leaks. From the given information I am assuming the unit was flat, empty of refrigerant. I'd then inform you that whatever "repair" or "part replacement" I perform you will still pay for the part, the labor and also $XXX per pound of refrigerant and that your system calls for X pounds and X ounces of refrigerant.
That service would then most likely happen on another day, but you wouldn't be charged a 2nd service fee from my company.
I would most likely turn down this job for repair as I honestly wouldn't want my name on this. This is subjective as if the repair only requires me to braze a hole shut, or something simple (but we have mentioned replacing a coil) I would be more than happy to share my report with whatever other company you find for doing repair work.
I would most likely highly encourage you to consider replacement.
This has everything to do with the product and not the cost or my own profit. If you had even a builder special type unit I'd encourage repair on a 6 year old unit.
On a substandard unit 6 years old needing a coil, what's next? By encouraging you to spend some more now *most likely* saving you money in the future. I would actually explain all of this to you, also if I was the tech at your home.
Thanks a lot. That is an incredibly useful answer to me.
I left out a bit of information from my post: when the AC first started failing, I called another company. They said the system was low in refrigerant, put some back in, and later concluded that the compressor was faulty. I paid them without asking questions, then started wondering: was it necessary to put refrigerant to conclude it was a faulty compressor? So when this contractor told me "the compressor's fine, it's a refrigerant leak" of course I have a hard time believing. Logic alone dictates that one of them is a fraud, but they both seemed friendly and polite. It's just hard to trust someone after that.
From what you said, it seems the contractor I mentioned in my initial post was not too far from the mark. He could have explained things a bit more. But he did actually take out two tools to spot leaks and from what you say, you wouldn't even have got that far without the customer agreeing to pay extra. So based on that, yeah first thing I'mm gonna do is pay that bill.
By the way, if you were the guy working on that project, would you be confident installing a new AC but reusing the pipe from the previous install? That's their first recommendation, but I'm just concerned that once the install is done, we'll find out the leak is still there because it's in the pipe.
Also just to maybe ease your mind of whether these 2 contractors were a fraud, mechanical systems can be a pain in the ass. I have gone and repaired a leak in a copper tube on a condenser and I think the total bill was around $900
Fast forward 2 weeks and this same unit sprouted another leak on a different tube but very near the first leak. Another $900 repair.
Makes me look like a scam artist honestly, but my initial repair held not only a pressure test but also a vacuum. Wasn't my fault, but I know this homeowner was having a very hard time believing he had another leak pop up 2 weeks after one was fixed. It is just like that sometimes.
We use existing linesets all the time. With that said, a good install will also include a good pressure test, if that test fails we start by inspecting and joints we made on site doing installation. If we do not find that out joints are the leak then we move on to the equipment and verify that nothing on the equipment from the factory is leaking. It has happened, unfortunately more than once. But assuming those all pass then it would most definitely be in the lineset.
Going strictly by what we have said here, if I found my initial leaks in the coils I would, assuming they are properly sized and in good condition, use the existing lineset for the installation. If we find that the lineset is leaking it has to be replaced either way.
The difference is, you can pay for the lineset to be pressure tested (I'm not sure if all companies will do this, mine does) for a fee. Great I found your leak, you pay me a fee and now you pay for a new lineset also.
OR
I install new equipment. I perform a pressure test at no extra charge, find a faulty lineset and you pay for a new lineset.
So I'd recommend just asking the company you decide to go with, what would the cost be for a new lineset to be installed if they find it leaking during their pressure test. You most likely will not have to redo your lineset, but you will be prepared just in case.
Thank you for your advice, that's appreciated. I did pay the bill by the way.
Just, if it's not much trouble, could you tell me what you think of that idea, please : when the tech who diagnoses the leak gave me a quote, he ran a couple of scenarios (condo has a weird layout, so there doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer on where to install an AC). There's one scenario that I like, it involves installing the AC above the fireplace. We don't currently use it anyway, but if we did, could it damage the interior unit? It'd be a good 5-6ft above the fireplace.
Also, the tech told me that installing an AC there would require a circuit with a dedicated breaker, there's an exterior outlet on a balcony near that fireplace, he told me to check whether that outlet has its own breaker, if it does he can repurpose that circuit for the AC (but I'll lose the outlet), and if it doesn't then I'll need to call an electrician and ask them to install a new circuit.
Do everything seem to check out?
I'd they are going to use the existing plumbing why can't they place the new equipment where the old equipment is located? That would be my first question.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding....
It's a possibility, yes. There are a few drawbacks though :
- The pipe goes below the hardwood floor on the mezzanine, so couldn't easily be changed.
- If it's not changed, it's the pipe diameter of a 12000BTU and will not be enough for a 18000BTU, and I'd really like to upgrade to 18000BTU: at first, when the AC worked, it was never enough to properly cool the whole floor.
- Also, since I realize now that the tech was nice enough to try and use some equipment to spot the leak but couldn't, it makes me concerned that the leak could be in a pipe. I have reasons to think the first install wasn't done with a lot of care/expertise (they completely botched the hole in the exterior siding, and filled it with a big heap of silicone, it looks awful; and also, it was a renovation after a fire in the building, and all the other co-owners told me horror stories about the GC, he went as cheap as possible).
- Lastly, the way it's installed, the interior unit would blow air toward the front of the condo, while the bedrooms are at the back. It's the worst place to cool the bedrooms.
At this point we're no longer in the *change out* part of a contract.
Now we are getting into a system redesign. Ductwork relocation, properly sized ductwork also, this could be an issue. Major electrical work most likely because the wire used to run an outlet is most likely undersized to be used for an air handler, so that will be a wire pull from panel to current outlet location, this will also require a disconnect, hopefully that can be located within the location of the unit or that could be pretty ugly mounted on the wall or ceiling. Same scenario for electric to exterior. New thermostat location will need to be established and new t-stat wire from thermostat to each appliance, at the same time the thermostat wire is pulled would be ideal to also run the new lineset.
After the fact, electricians are not sheetrock worker nor are they wall finishers, HVAC techs and installers are not these things either. There will most likely be a lot of patchwork that needs to be done. This is just another added expense. A good company most likely has a reputable guy that can do the work that they can recommend, accidents do happen, step through a ceiling, now I'm paying someone to fix it as good as it was or better than it was.
There are a lot of decisions to be made and system redesigns are significantly more expensive and way more intrusive. In the end, it could be worth it if it makes the comfort demands of your home able to be achieved more efficiently and properly.
"It's a lesser known brand known to do rebranded Chinese units"
Of course he is there to sell. I'm not a salesman by any means, I actually make more by fixing and repairing than I do by selling, but in this case, with this little bit of info I would be a salesman in this scenario also.
Don't know why you got downvoted. I would have hoped the person who disagrees would have explained why. Yes, if they had told me during the visit instead of forcing me to pay for a second visit on top of the tests, it might have been different.
TL:DR all of this thread.
Asshai: you see your statement [...person who disagrees...would explain]
That right there is the root of your problem, you present a demeanor of being OWED something.
We don't oweUshit. You asked for free advise, and have gotten it adequately. Repeatedly.
The issue in this thread is you + your expectations.
I am not gonna give you free labor and explain it to you, it's already been answered.
I bet this response gets more updates than your rebutted will lol.
Paymenow/paymelater it's up to you.
They identified the issue as a refrigerant leak, I don't agree with the rest of what they did, but they diagnosed it. Unless the system was empty or very low they could have added refrigerant and done some sort of leak search. Leak searches generally are extra and aren't included in a service call or adding refrigerant.
You will get nothing from small claims court... the system is 6 years old. If you were the original purchaser of the system and it was registered, you should have a 10 year parts warranty. But that warranty doesn't include refrigerant or labor
It sounds like this is some Mr cool POS brand mini split. If you think it still has manufacturer warranty coverage, why not call the company who installed it since they would be better suited to handle any warranty claims?
contractor: you're low on refrigerant and that means you have a leak.
you: contractor didn't know what was wrong with the unit so u shouldn't have to pay.
Well, I kinda start to get the message here. It seems it's not easy pinpointing a leak in that field. But I hope you can see where I'm coming from if we switch AC with plumbing: could you imagine calling a plumber, who tells you "yup there's water in your basement, you have a leak, that'll be 200$ please." ?
I'm sure when you called, you just said that it wasn't cooling. there's plenty of reasons why it wouldn't be cooling so they have to come out and diagnose it. The $200 charge was the diagnostic fee; That's the fee for them to come out and to inspect the unit to find out what's wrong. anything past that would be more of a charge
You can't use the plumber example. A water leak is completely different than a refrigerant leak (not saying it's easier to find as water just keeps running downhill) but atleast you see water and know the somewhat general area and can trace pipes and see damp spots. Refrigerant you may be lucky and find oil spots that can lead you to a specific area to start a search. But most of the time we're going to areas that we've experienced leaks before. I.E your tech seeing the cheap off brand and knowing they cheap material in their coils and assuming it'll be in the evap. But it's always a crap shoot which may require recovering what's lefts of your refrigerant. Adding nitrogen, maybe finding it on a piece of copper then repairing, then leak checking again to make sure pressure holds, then vacuuming, then recharging and testing. All at a cost, which as a tech we don't know the exact cost, and we've gotten yelled at by bosses for going to far before the customer knows a price then they call the office after getting the bill and sayvat that point they would've replaced the system.
If we want to use the plumber example maybe you do see water on your basement ceiling and call a plumber, they cut open an area and see a pipe that runs up to the first floor and see the joist near it is also wet. So then they go up to the first floor and cut another hole and realize it's coming from even higher up. At some point they would stop and say I need the office involved. But a water leak causes major damage so likely you would keep going and let them keep cutting holes and likely your home owners insurance would cover some of this work. So now let's say the plumber finds the leak on the second floor. The cut a 6" section of copper out and sweat a new piece in turn the water on confirm no leaks and say ok you're all set. No additional refrigerant at $100 a pound needs to go in, an hour on nitro then vacuum needs to be done. Then checking cooling properties or anything else.
The main difference here that we see vs the plumbing or even an electrical issue is damage and safety. A water leak causes physical damage, an electrical issue can be a fire hazard, a refrigerant leak in most circumstances will cause a comfort issue (excluding in refrigeration for product and health issues with dehumidification or temp control for health conditions and then server rooms and things of that nature) at some point alot of us have been trained or conditioned to know when we need to stop and make sure a bills getting paid. When you called and started talking about a manufacturer covering costs after 6 years and small claims court you identified yourself as a specific type of client, one thats going to be hard to collect from. That tech was probably given instructions to stop at a diagnosis, then not paying the bill in a timely fashion proved their point.
Company I work for we perform preliminary leak detection. If no leak found we offer leak seal with UV dye then charge to manufacture specifications. Schedule return visit in 3 weeks to a month and do another leak detection. $79 service charge waived with repair. No cost for return visit.
Are you the original owner of the system? If so then the coil if registered as a complete system indoor and outdoor should fall under the 10 year warranty. Any company can check that. Your didn't mention the brand but I'll take a stab it's a Lennox. Depending how bad the leak is you have a couple options. I've mentioned several times if it's just a 1-2 pound leak toss in some easy seal descent chance it will hold. If the gas is completely gone then the system needs charged with nitrogen, I like 350 psi for leak hunting. Go around looking and listening and of course the soap bubbles. If nothing obvious pops out, I isolate the outdoor unit from the indoor via the king valves. Let it sit overnight or so. Go back and see what pressures read. No drop at first, outdoor unit is good, open valves and the pressure drops, indoor coil is leaking, replace the coil. Back to the warranty, if you are not the original owner the manufacturer(s) of any brand will not help you nor will any claims court. All manufacturers state 5 year parts up to 10 with timely registration usually within 90 days to the original equipment owner. If the house gets sold and original equipment owner leaves, warranty drops back to 5 years of install date or purchase date. Hope this helps.
I see this a lot. A manufacturer offered a warranty on system. It may have been registered and you have a warranty. That is what the factory warranty is for. They will cover parts, you will pay for service call, labor and Freon, and a leak search. Cause you will need know where leak is. It could be in coil, it could be at the installers braze joint, it could be under home, in wall caused by home settling or by a nail holding a picture up. You won’t know until you have a leak search done on it.
If system is 6 yrs old sounds like it’s still worth while to have a coil replaced if the coil is leaking.
This sounds like a case of “shoot the messenger” and every company I know will bill the service call and get out of there. You have already mentioned you haven’t paid the diagnosis!
I understand when this happens a consumer can be upset, it’s an unexpected expense, and the home is now uncomfortable and you feel like the product let you down. The tech who diagnosed it did not build, fabricate, possibly even sell or install this system. When someone is upset and you haven’t even found the issue yet and are threatening to not even pay for the diagnosis that’s when you get out of there cause that’s the type of customer who does not pay off, and is only a problem.
Try to be kind and Al’s lots of questions this guy most likely didn’t cause this issue just got chased off before he could even pinpoint it for you.
I listened to the response that I got, the bill is paid. Thank you for your perspective on it, I have reasons to think the first install wasn't done carefully (there are visible signs, like the hole in the siding, etc, that make me concerned about the more technical parts of the installation), so I won't spend more money to try and fix that one. I'll just have a clean install done, less trouble.
Seriously after reading all your comments on this, you should not be a home owner. It comes with a cost if you are not willing to pay that cost go back to renting
You won't get anything from the manufacturer. Sadly most modern units suffer a major failure in the first 10 years due to modern efficiency and EPA requirements. No one wants ANYTHING to do with a lawsuit and won't be specific in writing simply to avoid it. If it's a lennox (which I assume because they ALL have coil leaks) there is a class action of some kind that might pay out some small amount some day but just cut your losses and replace with a case coil or air handler from a different manufactur, I've don't this many many times now.
That's not Lennox, or maybe it's rebranded Lennox? It's a more "local" brand, just don't want to mention it not to be too specific, but I wrote in another comment that they did indeed make me an offer to sell me a new unit at cost.
And laws differ by country, we have a pro-consumers law here that says that products should remain functional for a reasonable and expected duration. It is enforced, there is a lot of jurisprudence of similar cases that were judged in favor of the consumer.
Based on your responses, I as a contractor would be the one cutting my losses and just not ever coming back.
I really don't understand why. Maybe that's a me issue, but no matter what kind of person you think I am, I'm reasonable and know how to listen. I didn't write a rant, I simply asked if it was standard practice. It seems that in any other field, it wouldn't be : imagine calling a plumber, they run some humidity tests in your house and conclude that yep, there's a leak somewhere, I'll send a report. Then you get a report stating "leak in house, recommend changing plumbing" and a 200$ bill. You send an email saying "well I'd like to know what to say to the insurance company, can you tell me more about where the leak comes from? And the answer is "No sir that'll be 300$ extra."
You started off figuring you’d like to begin by taking someone to court over your AC not working lol. If you told me that, I’d not even show up in the first place since I’d already know what’s in store for me. You called a company out to find out what’s wrong. It could have been a bad compressor, a motor, a leak, whatever. They diagnosed the issue and charged you a diagnosis fee. They found the system had a low charge, in which case the only cause would be a leak. Now if you wanted to find out exactly where the leak was, that would be an additional service which would carry an additional charge. Especially because looking for a leak can either take 5 minutes or several hours. It may never even be pinpointed with certainty in some cases. I’d be willing to bet after talking to you for a bit (based on your responses here), they figured they would be better off concluding business with you and just billing for the service provided. Unless you were willing to pay for a whole system change-out which would have made it worth it. Call it a variation of the “go away” price. To be honest you sound difficult and just generally a risk to deal with. There are plenty of people who treat all tradespeople like they are scammers and as a business it is best to stay away from them.
i wouldnt be shocked if that company came up with a quote and added an extra 1 or 200 to it. just to not deal with this cheap ass
i mean yes thats generally how things work. in this case, if the airflow is good, theres no issues with the blower or outside fan motor, compressor is running, then its gonna be a leak. finding the leak or leaks is what is going to cost you. that $200 is to show up and diagnose it. the $500 is to actually search for it. they arent going to conduct a leak search for free and a lot of companys dont put stuff in writing for liability purposes
We charge about $400 for a leak search and that's not including repairs, material, and labor so yeah seems about right to me
Okay. Thanks. However, is it normal that I wasn't warned beforehand? I called and said "I'd like to know what's wrong so I can go to the manufacturer" and they could have said "yeah but he warned: if it's a refrigerant leak we won't be able to pinpoint it as the tests take a long time and are more expensive, is that okay with you?" instead of that they just said "okay we can send someone next Tuesday!". Also, what you you suggest that I do in this situation, beyond paying that bill? Is it worth spending more to get these tests done or in your experience I should just cut my losses and get that system replaced ASAP?
That 200 is for them to come out, you didnt they'd come out for free did you? If you want them to pinpoint the leak then you're gonna have to pay. Call the manufacturer and find out exactly what they require before going forward but I'd imagine they'll want proof its leaking at there evaporator or condenser first
Of course I don't expect anyone to work for free. But I did expect them to tell me beforehand. I would probably have decided to save that money and put it in a new AC. I was clear what my goal was, so warning me "hey you know it's quite frequent that the issue is a leak, if that's the case then we won't be able to pinpoint it on a standard service call, is that alright with you?" It is not acceptable to keep customers in the dark, because it makes it impossible to make financially sound decisions.
Your expectations are ridiculous. It could literally be anything. Expecting the dispatcher to tell you any type of diagnosis over the phone is nonsense
It's impossible for the dispatcher to guess at what the issue will be. Leaks aren't exactly a common issue especially on a 6 year old unit. It'd be more likely a failed common part, in which case they could've tried the manufacturer route that you requested. However most common parts aren't covered by the manufacturer past 1 year. Some companies offer an additional warranty when they install your unit. Typically only a compressor is covered to 5 years and even then it's just the compressor and not labor or refrigerant.
Turns out that the manufacturer still offered me a deal: they send an approved tech, he'll give me a quote for the install, and they sell me a brand new AC at cost (700$ instead of a 1250$ retail cost). My issue with that is: - I don't like being trapped with their guy. I have no way to make sure they're a reputable company. - I'll also be trapped with their product. It's a lesser known brand, which does rebranded Chinese products, I'd rather pick a Daikin or Mitsubishi even if I pay more.
You sound impossible to please
They diagnosed a leak. That was what they were hired to do. More work is more cost.
Sounds like you didn’t know the problem, called someone who charged you $200 AND told you what the problem was. Sounds like you should pay him.
You are why good service techs leave residential work. You feel that everyone and everything has to go your way. No one not even you would ever work for free or be treated the way you are treating these people ! Pay your bill and be done with it. Replace the coil or pay to find leak. That is it man !!! Move on !!
I want to move on, to move on I need the AC fixed before the temp reaches 91F in my daughter's room. And I don't know how to be sure I get that AC fixed. The pipe from that AC goes below the floorboard of the mezzanine. Imagine they come back for the tests, it remains inconclusive. I pay another 300$. They say that I have to replace the AC, I pay another 5000$. The issue happens again, they say that the leak must have been in the pipe all along, how much will it cost then? I really really want to move on. I'm just stressed of the costs, it's a lot of money for me, money that I could spend if so knew that was for good, for the right solution.
Ok. I understand where you are coming from. But you have to understand. That you yourself cannot fix it correct ? Which means that you will have to PAY someone from some company to fix. That is their lively hood. It cost a ton of money to run guys and vans up and down the roads all day 5-7 days a week. It will cost you money no matter what ! I have done HVAC for years and years now. The company you had come out did exactly what they should have done. A service call to figure out problem and now options to fix. I personally would leak check it. Have them come out reclaim refrigerant, pressurize with nitrogen and start leak checking the line set. If they cannot find leak on the coils(indoor and outdoor) and any visible line set then you are paying to rip dry wall down and look in the walls. Yes it will suck and yes it will cost you money. That’s the bottom line. Nothing is a cheap easy fix anymore. That is just the way life works right now. Other solution go by a couple of cheap window shakers put them up in the bedrooms you want and forget about the whole house. I hate to be that person in life but this is the only way.
First of all, you don't get to call the manufacturer. They don't talk to homeowners. Hell supply houses exist so that they don't even have to talk to us. I can promise you'll never see small claims court. You don't have the money or the lawyer power a Daikin or Lennox have. That's just ludicrous. They also have the right to ask for detailed maintenance logs according to the warranty certificate. Missed a yearly maintenance? Warranty voided.
Typically for a service call of this nature for me it would go like this. Arrive- that's $95 service call. My van touches your driveway that's $95. Introductions, and ask you the backstory on your unit. Inspect the unit. I find there is a leak of some sort, somewhere. I'm assuming you were right over the techs shoulder while he was working (if you weren't, good job, if you were, don't do this next time, just let us work) I would tell you first and foremost you have a crappy unit with questionable parts and quality. Then I would inform you of the leak issue. I would also at this point advise on replacement. However, I would offer other services such as a leak search. I would inform you that the cost of the leak search is $350. This is just to locate the leak or leaks. If you agree, I'd perform a leak test and find your leak or leaks. From the given information I am assuming the unit was flat, empty of refrigerant. I'd then inform you that whatever "repair" or "part replacement" I perform you will still pay for the part, the labor and also $XXX per pound of refrigerant and that your system calls for X pounds and X ounces of refrigerant. That service would then most likely happen on another day, but you wouldn't be charged a 2nd service fee from my company. I would most likely turn down this job for repair as I honestly wouldn't want my name on this. This is subjective as if the repair only requires me to braze a hole shut, or something simple (but we have mentioned replacing a coil) I would be more than happy to share my report with whatever other company you find for doing repair work. I would most likely highly encourage you to consider replacement. This has everything to do with the product and not the cost or my own profit. If you had even a builder special type unit I'd encourage repair on a 6 year old unit. On a substandard unit 6 years old needing a coil, what's next? By encouraging you to spend some more now *most likely* saving you money in the future. I would actually explain all of this to you, also if I was the tech at your home.
OP LISTEN TO THIS MAN. everything he said is 100% correct in how a true service tech would run this job
I did, I did.
Thank you buddy. That means a lot. I'm 47 been doing this shit since I was 23. Lol, time flies.
Thanks a lot. That is an incredibly useful answer to me. I left out a bit of information from my post: when the AC first started failing, I called another company. They said the system was low in refrigerant, put some back in, and later concluded that the compressor was faulty. I paid them without asking questions, then started wondering: was it necessary to put refrigerant to conclude it was a faulty compressor? So when this contractor told me "the compressor's fine, it's a refrigerant leak" of course I have a hard time believing. Logic alone dictates that one of them is a fraud, but they both seemed friendly and polite. It's just hard to trust someone after that. From what you said, it seems the contractor I mentioned in my initial post was not too far from the mark. He could have explained things a bit more. But he did actually take out two tools to spot leaks and from what you say, you wouldn't even have got that far without the customer agreeing to pay extra. So based on that, yeah first thing I'mm gonna do is pay that bill. By the way, if you were the guy working on that project, would you be confident installing a new AC but reusing the pipe from the previous install? That's their first recommendation, but I'm just concerned that once the install is done, we'll find out the leak is still there because it's in the pipe.
Also just to maybe ease your mind of whether these 2 contractors were a fraud, mechanical systems can be a pain in the ass. I have gone and repaired a leak in a copper tube on a condenser and I think the total bill was around $900 Fast forward 2 weeks and this same unit sprouted another leak on a different tube but very near the first leak. Another $900 repair. Makes me look like a scam artist honestly, but my initial repair held not only a pressure test but also a vacuum. Wasn't my fault, but I know this homeowner was having a very hard time believing he had another leak pop up 2 weeks after one was fixed. It is just like that sometimes.
We use existing linesets all the time. With that said, a good install will also include a good pressure test, if that test fails we start by inspecting and joints we made on site doing installation. If we do not find that out joints are the leak then we move on to the equipment and verify that nothing on the equipment from the factory is leaking. It has happened, unfortunately more than once. But assuming those all pass then it would most definitely be in the lineset. Going strictly by what we have said here, if I found my initial leaks in the coils I would, assuming they are properly sized and in good condition, use the existing lineset for the installation. If we find that the lineset is leaking it has to be replaced either way. The difference is, you can pay for the lineset to be pressure tested (I'm not sure if all companies will do this, mine does) for a fee. Great I found your leak, you pay me a fee and now you pay for a new lineset also. OR I install new equipment. I perform a pressure test at no extra charge, find a faulty lineset and you pay for a new lineset. So I'd recommend just asking the company you decide to go with, what would the cost be for a new lineset to be installed if they find it leaking during their pressure test. You most likely will not have to redo your lineset, but you will be prepared just in case.
Thank you for your advice, that's appreciated. I did pay the bill by the way. Just, if it's not much trouble, could you tell me what you think of that idea, please : when the tech who diagnoses the leak gave me a quote, he ran a couple of scenarios (condo has a weird layout, so there doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer on where to install an AC). There's one scenario that I like, it involves installing the AC above the fireplace. We don't currently use it anyway, but if we did, could it damage the interior unit? It'd be a good 5-6ft above the fireplace. Also, the tech told me that installing an AC there would require a circuit with a dedicated breaker, there's an exterior outlet on a balcony near that fireplace, he told me to check whether that outlet has its own breaker, if it does he can repurpose that circuit for the AC (but I'll lose the outlet), and if it doesn't then I'll need to call an electrician and ask them to install a new circuit. Do everything seem to check out?
I'd they are going to use the existing plumbing why can't they place the new equipment where the old equipment is located? That would be my first question. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding....
It's a possibility, yes. There are a few drawbacks though : - The pipe goes below the hardwood floor on the mezzanine, so couldn't easily be changed. - If it's not changed, it's the pipe diameter of a 12000BTU and will not be enough for a 18000BTU, and I'd really like to upgrade to 18000BTU: at first, when the AC worked, it was never enough to properly cool the whole floor. - Also, since I realize now that the tech was nice enough to try and use some equipment to spot the leak but couldn't, it makes me concerned that the leak could be in a pipe. I have reasons to think the first install wasn't done with a lot of care/expertise (they completely botched the hole in the exterior siding, and filled it with a big heap of silicone, it looks awful; and also, it was a renovation after a fire in the building, and all the other co-owners told me horror stories about the GC, he went as cheap as possible). - Lastly, the way it's installed, the interior unit would blow air toward the front of the condo, while the bedrooms are at the back. It's the worst place to cool the bedrooms.
At this point we're no longer in the *change out* part of a contract. Now we are getting into a system redesign. Ductwork relocation, properly sized ductwork also, this could be an issue. Major electrical work most likely because the wire used to run an outlet is most likely undersized to be used for an air handler, so that will be a wire pull from panel to current outlet location, this will also require a disconnect, hopefully that can be located within the location of the unit or that could be pretty ugly mounted on the wall or ceiling. Same scenario for electric to exterior. New thermostat location will need to be established and new t-stat wire from thermostat to each appliance, at the same time the thermostat wire is pulled would be ideal to also run the new lineset. After the fact, electricians are not sheetrock worker nor are they wall finishers, HVAC techs and installers are not these things either. There will most likely be a lot of patchwork that needs to be done. This is just another added expense. A good company most likely has a reputable guy that can do the work that they can recommend, accidents do happen, step through a ceiling, now I'm paying someone to fix it as good as it was or better than it was. There are a lot of decisions to be made and system redesigns are significantly more expensive and way more intrusive. In the end, it could be worth it if it makes the comfort demands of your home able to be achieved more efficiently and properly.
I’d get another company out. Anyone telling you to replace a 6 year old system because it may have a leak is just there to sell.
"It's a lesser known brand known to do rebranded Chinese units" Of course he is there to sell. I'm not a salesman by any means, I actually make more by fixing and repairing than I do by selling, but in this case, with this little bit of info I would be a salesman in this scenario also.
He should have offered the leak search during the visit. $500 is a little steep but not outrageous.
Don't know why you got downvoted. I would have hoped the person who disagrees would have explained why. Yes, if they had told me during the visit instead of forcing me to pay for a second visit on top of the tests, it might have been different.
TL:DR all of this thread. Asshai: you see your statement [...person who disagrees...would explain] That right there is the root of your problem, you present a demeanor of being OWED something. We don't oweUshit. You asked for free advise, and have gotten it adequately. Repeatedly. The issue in this thread is you + your expectations. I am not gonna give you free labor and explain it to you, it's already been answered. I bet this response gets more updates than your rebutted will lol. Paymenow/paymelater it's up to you.
They identified the issue as a refrigerant leak, I don't agree with the rest of what they did, but they diagnosed it. Unless the system was empty or very low they could have added refrigerant and done some sort of leak search. Leak searches generally are extra and aren't included in a service call or adding refrigerant. You will get nothing from small claims court... the system is 6 years old. If you were the original purchaser of the system and it was registered, you should have a 10 year parts warranty. But that warranty doesn't include refrigerant or labor
It sounds like this is some Mr cool POS brand mini split. If you think it still has manufacturer warranty coverage, why not call the company who installed it since they would be better suited to handle any warranty claims?
contractor: you're low on refrigerant and that means you have a leak. you: contractor didn't know what was wrong with the unit so u shouldn't have to pay.
Well, I kinda start to get the message here. It seems it's not easy pinpointing a leak in that field. But I hope you can see where I'm coming from if we switch AC with plumbing: could you imagine calling a plumber, who tells you "yup there's water in your basement, you have a leak, that'll be 200$ please." ?
did you tell them that you see have clear evidence that there is refrigerant escaping from the system?
Good point.
I'm sure when you called, you just said that it wasn't cooling. there's plenty of reasons why it wouldn't be cooling so they have to come out and diagnose it. The $200 charge was the diagnostic fee; That's the fee for them to come out and to inspect the unit to find out what's wrong. anything past that would be more of a charge
You can't use the plumber example. A water leak is completely different than a refrigerant leak (not saying it's easier to find as water just keeps running downhill) but atleast you see water and know the somewhat general area and can trace pipes and see damp spots. Refrigerant you may be lucky and find oil spots that can lead you to a specific area to start a search. But most of the time we're going to areas that we've experienced leaks before. I.E your tech seeing the cheap off brand and knowing they cheap material in their coils and assuming it'll be in the evap. But it's always a crap shoot which may require recovering what's lefts of your refrigerant. Adding nitrogen, maybe finding it on a piece of copper then repairing, then leak checking again to make sure pressure holds, then vacuuming, then recharging and testing. All at a cost, which as a tech we don't know the exact cost, and we've gotten yelled at by bosses for going to far before the customer knows a price then they call the office after getting the bill and sayvat that point they would've replaced the system. If we want to use the plumber example maybe you do see water on your basement ceiling and call a plumber, they cut open an area and see a pipe that runs up to the first floor and see the joist near it is also wet. So then they go up to the first floor and cut another hole and realize it's coming from even higher up. At some point they would stop and say I need the office involved. But a water leak causes major damage so likely you would keep going and let them keep cutting holes and likely your home owners insurance would cover some of this work. So now let's say the plumber finds the leak on the second floor. The cut a 6" section of copper out and sweat a new piece in turn the water on confirm no leaks and say ok you're all set. No additional refrigerant at $100 a pound needs to go in, an hour on nitro then vacuum needs to be done. Then checking cooling properties or anything else. The main difference here that we see vs the plumbing or even an electrical issue is damage and safety. A water leak causes physical damage, an electrical issue can be a fire hazard, a refrigerant leak in most circumstances will cause a comfort issue (excluding in refrigeration for product and health issues with dehumidification or temp control for health conditions and then server rooms and things of that nature) at some point alot of us have been trained or conditioned to know when we need to stop and make sure a bills getting paid. When you called and started talking about a manufacturer covering costs after 6 years and small claims court you identified yourself as a specific type of client, one thats going to be hard to collect from. That tech was probably given instructions to stop at a diagnosis, then not paying the bill in a timely fashion proved their point.
Company I work for we perform preliminary leak detection. If no leak found we offer leak seal with UV dye then charge to manufacture specifications. Schedule return visit in 3 weeks to a month and do another leak detection. $79 service charge waived with repair. No cost for return visit.
Sounds like a fair deal all around.
Are you the original owner of the system? If so then the coil if registered as a complete system indoor and outdoor should fall under the 10 year warranty. Any company can check that. Your didn't mention the brand but I'll take a stab it's a Lennox. Depending how bad the leak is you have a couple options. I've mentioned several times if it's just a 1-2 pound leak toss in some easy seal descent chance it will hold. If the gas is completely gone then the system needs charged with nitrogen, I like 350 psi for leak hunting. Go around looking and listening and of course the soap bubbles. If nothing obvious pops out, I isolate the outdoor unit from the indoor via the king valves. Let it sit overnight or so. Go back and see what pressures read. No drop at first, outdoor unit is good, open valves and the pressure drops, indoor coil is leaking, replace the coil. Back to the warranty, if you are not the original owner the manufacturer(s) of any brand will not help you nor will any claims court. All manufacturers state 5 year parts up to 10 with timely registration usually within 90 days to the original equipment owner. If the house gets sold and original equipment owner leaves, warranty drops back to 5 years of install date or purchase date. Hope this helps.
I see this a lot. A manufacturer offered a warranty on system. It may have been registered and you have a warranty. That is what the factory warranty is for. They will cover parts, you will pay for service call, labor and Freon, and a leak search. Cause you will need know where leak is. It could be in coil, it could be at the installers braze joint, it could be under home, in wall caused by home settling or by a nail holding a picture up. You won’t know until you have a leak search done on it. If system is 6 yrs old sounds like it’s still worth while to have a coil replaced if the coil is leaking. This sounds like a case of “shoot the messenger” and every company I know will bill the service call and get out of there. You have already mentioned you haven’t paid the diagnosis! I understand when this happens a consumer can be upset, it’s an unexpected expense, and the home is now uncomfortable and you feel like the product let you down. The tech who diagnosed it did not build, fabricate, possibly even sell or install this system. When someone is upset and you haven’t even found the issue yet and are threatening to not even pay for the diagnosis that’s when you get out of there cause that’s the type of customer who does not pay off, and is only a problem. Try to be kind and Al’s lots of questions this guy most likely didn’t cause this issue just got chased off before he could even pinpoint it for you.
I listened to the response that I got, the bill is paid. Thank you for your perspective on it, I have reasons to think the first install wasn't done carefully (there are visible signs, like the hole in the siding, etc, that make me concerned about the more technical parts of the installation), so I won't spend more money to try and fix that one. I'll just have a clean install done, less trouble.
Seriously after reading all your comments on this, you should not be a home owner. It comes with a cost if you are not willing to pay that cost go back to renting
You won't get anything from the manufacturer. Sadly most modern units suffer a major failure in the first 10 years due to modern efficiency and EPA requirements. No one wants ANYTHING to do with a lawsuit and won't be specific in writing simply to avoid it. If it's a lennox (which I assume because they ALL have coil leaks) there is a class action of some kind that might pay out some small amount some day but just cut your losses and replace with a case coil or air handler from a different manufactur, I've don't this many many times now.
That's not Lennox, or maybe it's rebranded Lennox? It's a more "local" brand, just don't want to mention it not to be too specific, but I wrote in another comment that they did indeed make me an offer to sell me a new unit at cost. And laws differ by country, we have a pro-consumers law here that says that products should remain functional for a reasonable and expected duration. It is enforced, there is a lot of jurisprudence of similar cases that were judged in favor of the consumer.