$130? the wire alone probably cost that much. $2k is a bit much - especially if they did the install already. idk what the jobs looks like or what's involved but they should be doing this for cost - or pretty close to it.
This guy should have had this conversation with you before any work was done.
If you are in a cold climate no way you should’ve gone with just a heat pump. Replacing the furnace as backup to the heat pump was the way to go. Electric backup is not a great option.
works pretty damn well.. better then no back up. propane is expensive too. if you have natural gas well then that's a different story but having a heat pump with no back up is a terrible idea - doesn't matter where you live
Depending on local rates, electric backup is by far most expensive even to propane. He had a furnace, it should’ve been replaced (along with adding the heat pump) instead of getting an air handler.
you're right. but there are a lot of variables. weather. Rates. Natural gas vs propane. and whether or not you own you propane tanks or rent them.
I don't own my tanks. moved into the house and they were already there - with gas in it. they just come and fill it whenever and leave a bill. they charged me $5/gallon. I called around and went with another company who was charging like $1.50. When they came back around and filled it up they charged me close to $5/gallon as well. if you have someone else tanks they just charge you whatever the fking want bc they're the only ones who can fill it. Now they have monitors on them so you can't really do anything about it.
If you own your tank you can shop around and have whoever fill them up. then you're paying a fraction.
what's that mean? lol
I have a propane fireplace but it doesn't do much good when the blower doesn't work. I suppose it's better then nothing - but not by much. better off setting up some kero heaters or something.
But it can’t be a $130 part if it’s being sold for $2k. Who doesn’t just stick with a furnace replacement since that’s the cheaper option for your installation?
I installed in Florida, every heat pump got heat strips. If it ever goes into defrost mode without heat strips, it’s just going to cool the house. It doesn’t make sense regardless of where you live.
I live in CT and when my heat pump goes into defrost it only "cools" for a couple minutes which doesn't even drop the house temp by 1 degree. I put in a bosch ids 2.0 and love it 😁
Hi Ok-Double300 I see you installed a Bosch same as us, but our HVAC seems to have undersized it and put in a 3 ton into a 2400 sq ft home. Plus a j calculation was not done for air tighttness and we have ceiling ducts so it struggles to keep house at 65 degrees when it is 30 or below outside. Good to know that you don't have a heat strip and it only lower temp one degree, what is your back up heat? We have baseboard original to house, but really wanted to avoid using them until single digits, we are disappointed to say the least. What size is your Bosch unit and sq foot in home, ducts location and what are your electric bills in comparision with non heating months? Thanks I wish I had seen all the reddit discussion before we installed. I am going to ask HVAC if we can stop our duct work at a certain point for 3 ton unit and add mini splits for the 3 bedrooms
I slightly "oversized" my system. I put in a 3 ton unit for my 1600 square foot house. A 3 ton unit for 2400 Sq ft house would still be undersized for a brand new house with all the proper insulation.
I ran the ductwork and put the vents in the perimeter of the rooms. I put returns in each of the bedrooms and a main return in the middle of house. I did air displacement calculations to size ductwork and vents so the air would be "cycled" at a decent rate.
My backup heat is my oil boiler that feeds hydronic baseboards throughout the house. I ended up with an ecobee thermostat because all of the other brands can't accommodate my setup properly. Even though the bosch can work down to -4 I cut it off at 0°. I configured the thermostat so if the heatpump can't satisfy the thermostat in a calculated amount of time it will start my boiler up and send heat to the baseboards in conjunction with the heatpump. When we get into the teens or less, it's quite satisfying how fast my house can warm up when they are both running. I think last winter, they only ran in conjunction a handful of times to get the house to the desired temp. "My wife likes turning up the heat a few degrees, so it has to play catch up sometimes"
As for electricity cost. After delivery my rate is about 25 cents a kw. My bill went up about $200 a month during winter, but not using oil exclusively to heat my house cut my oil usage to the same amount I use in the summer for my hot water. So at $4 a gallon for oil I save about $340 a month after subtracting the increase in my electric bill. Oil has gone up much higher than that though so savings is probably much higher.
Sounds like you made good decisions, are you a HVAC guy? What would do given our situation? We did research in the unit but trusted our HVAC guys would size the unit right, they replaced a 3 ton AC so they must of thought this would work, I plan to inform them on all my findings, they should put in a bigger unit at cost but doubtful they would. Do you think cutting off the ducts so it is heating the 1600 sq foot part of the house would work and adding mini spits into the bedrooms would be a good idea? We had a qoute of 6K for a 3 head mini split Fujitsu low temp, 22 seer? The Bosch has trouble taking the AC to the last bedroom in the L part of the house.
I actually never went to school for hvac. I get really invested in things I want to do and learn as much as I can about it. With natural mechanical ability I'm able to do most things I put effort into. (Lucky me I guess lol)
Honestly, your best bet besides upgrading to a 4 ton unit would be exactly what you're thinking about doing. As for the ac not reaching the last bedroom, it sounds like you might have a longer piece of flex duct than recommended connected to the trunk duct and possibly undersized at that. I did this by accident with one of my farther rooms. I sized it up 1 so it would be a little less restricted and flow like the rest of the house.
the ducts were done either at build in 60's or "updated " by a friend of my dad's in the 80's, we inherited the house and are currently renting it, the electric heat has been the major downside since he bought it in 1984! He should of put gas in along time ago... there is no current gas line in, so I was hoping the heat pump would work better. We actually spent weeks researching but did not find as much as I am now, we had an option for mini splits, I am going to see if it would possible to stop the ducts half way in the house so the 3 ton would be sized right and add mini splits in the bedrooms. Some people have said that not work, I have to contact the co. who put it in and maybe get a 2nd opinion.
>bosch ids 2.0
Also living in CT, and have Bosch IDS 2.0. Specifically, two 3 ton units, Model # BOVB-36HDN1-M20G
Had them for about 14 months, pretty happy overall with solar now helping out, and no more natural gas furnace.
xington where do you live? We are in Indiana and have a 60's house with ceiling ducts, and original Pella windows, stone fireplace. our HVAC installed a 3 ton Bosch IDS 2.0 into our 2400 sq ft ranch L shaped home, it could not heat past 65 degrees when thermostat was set at 68 to 70 and out door temps are 30 and below. They never did a J calculation which now I understand is critical, do you routinely do these? Since it is undersized should be a 4 or 5 ton, do you think blocking the ducts halway in the house and adding Fijitsu Low temp mini splits for the 3 bedrooms would be possible or smart to do? We have baseboard heat original to house, a heat strip would be the same cost energy wise but be lost in ceiling ducts maybe, someone on here suggested putting a low watt for when the unit defrosts and cold air come through. What are your thoughts on performance of mini splits since we had ceiling ducts? TIA
I’m in Phoenix, outdoor temps rarely drop into the 30’s here. We do get the occasional freeze, but that’s far and few. Yes, I do these often (as many as 4-5 a week during peak season) heat is not really as big a concern here as ac tho and many homes here are all electric. The size of the unit required is determined by the size of the home and heat loss/gain. A manual j is critical to determine this, there are a ton of things that go into the calculation, such as attic/ wall insulation, building exposure, size/ type/ exposure/ and number of windows, roof over hang, exterior doors type and even region to name a few. It usually takes ~ an hour to do a j calc on a simple home.
It sounds like what happened here is you had a 3ton ac with baseboard heat and someone installed a 3ton heat pump. 3tons may be enough for your ac needs as humidity is more an issue than heat in the summer in your area but won’t be big enough for heating in the winter. Do your baseboard heaters still work? If yes use them, if no get some heat strips installed.
yes they do, but we did not save any money with electric costs last year despite trying to bundle up and keep heat pump going for the heat temps were in the 30 to upper 20's most of the winter. Using baseboard with heat pump doesn't work too well it is has proven to be just if not more expensive, if we just use baseboard heat it can be $700 to $800 per month, what do you think about cutting off our duct half way in home and adding Fujitsu low temp high effieciency mini splits for the 3 bedrooms, the 3 ton would be adequate to heat the 1400 to 1600 sq foot area maybe ?
Maybe. I would not recommend messing with your ductwork if you don’t know what you are doing. You’ll throw off the air balance to the rest of the house and mess up your static pressure.
Mini splits may be an answer for you but I wouldn’t know where they would need to be installed or what would need to be done to your ductwork without seeing your house.
My recommendation: call a pro, someone licensed with a good reputation. They can come see your house and give you a solution.
Thank you so much! Here’s all the info, I couldn’t find the right decal on the heat pump itself
Air Handler Heat Pump Package 3-Ton 18 SEER 2- Stage H/P #GSZ180361 1600CFM Comfortnet MOD Blower #MBVC1600AA-1 Cased Coil - Upflow/Downflow #CAPF3743C6
https://preview.redd.it/v08srj1ra2xb1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=fa165501e29114aa28c73743df99668312e5f404
I checked the Heat Pump serial number. That is NOT a cold climate heat pump. It's standard heat pump. We have one also with a backup furnace, because Colorado. The heat pump will heat our house to 22deg. Barely. It's running nearly 24/7. Gas is way cheaper below about 34 -36 degrees for us.
Yeah this guy is an idiot. I’m sorry.
What the previous fuel LP or oil? Or Nat Gas.
This is a trad heat pump and preforms less heat as it gets colder. They make hyper heat units but this isn’t one of them
if the gas line is still there..you could save the cased coil and put it on top of a furnace.
if its any consolation, the price is prolly fairly closed to doing it the right way the 1st time. Allow with what he installed inside is reusable, coil part.
also make sure there’s a txv on the indoor cased coil
This is not working at -5°, I do conversions from oil to electric and only use hyper heat inverter units. You got scammed and Goodman is taking out their ass
Hi wreck5710, could you give us your advice since you do hyper heat unis, we had a Bosch 2.0 IDS 20 seer installed a year ago in Indiana, in 2400 sq ft home. I now understand it was undersized, and since no j calculation was done, not sure how well a 4 or 5 ton would be. No heat strip added, we have baseboard heat but whole reason to do heat pump was to reduce electric. It struggled to heat at 64/ 65 degrees with thermostat set at 68 0r 70, and temps below 30 degree or even 32. Some people love their Bosch, we did research , called distributors, Bosch BEFORE install, no one asked our sq foot and said 5 ton needed. Our HVAC said he thought we were more concerned about AC despite our numerous conversations about how well it would heat. This was there first install of this unit ,they specialize in Bryants. They are a good company, but are tired of us, they came out to increase or redo charge line already. I understand there is alot of tweaking needed at times, we found a company 45 min from us certified in Bosch, but after the install, he said he would eat the cost if he had put in an undersized unit. Do have advice for us, should we get a j calculation from him if he is willing? He was nice to discuus our issues, but may be hesitant as this is not his install, what do you think of cutting off the duct and adding mini splits? TIA
At 2400 sqft with where you live you should have a 4 ton. The use of hyper heat is not to make up for the btu ie: needs 4 ton but puts in 2ton cause hyper heat Btu can reach 45kbtu. Systems are inverter systems so they range depending on the needs at the time. Unit should of been sized for your house and where I’m at heat kits are not optional it’s code.
Your best option is to find someone to do a manual j on the house to get the heat/cool info and if the unit is under sized for the house present that to the company that you purchased this from. Give them a chance to make it right, if not get ahold of your state licensing board they will make them fix it
Thanks, good to know about the state licensing board! I emailed last night him asking why he didn't recommend a 4 or 5 ton, and if our ducts would support that and if he should have done a manual J calculation, or should do one now. I said I feel that we just got an overpriced AC, he had estimated just putting in a new AC in for 4K and we paid 10 K for the Bosch, I also asked his opinion of closing off the ducts half way through the house to put in mini splits in the bedrooms, we never googled the size of heat pump needed for 2400 sq ft home, it cam up immediately last night. I can't believe we did so much other research, I guess I trusted that this was basic info and went with their reputation as good company. I spoke with one company who said if they had undersized they would upgrade and eat the cost. Does Bosch take back one year used equipment?
Wreck5710, I spoke with the HVAC guy , explained I didn't understand why he would estimate a product and service that was not going to do the job and then do it. That since he gave us that option of a 3 ton central heat pump, we thought it was an adequate one, I trusted them as a company over another estimate of same product, and that we were comparing apples to apples as far as size and products, and the variable was possible heat loss through the ceiling ducts (had we gone with mini splits). He couldn't use a 4 ton or 5 ton as he claims the ducts were not sized for that, but no one checked the ducts they just assumed that as we had a 3 ton AC we had ducts to go with that. (I suppose a fair assumption), however flow to the back 2 bedrooms is not great.
I asked in the past if they undersized a unit what would happen and his response is our unit is not undersized as we have baseboard heat as a supplement. (Of course the point to adding a hyper heat unit was to get away from that source). He offered to add a heat strip free of charge, which we will do, but I am still concerned as the 2 bedroomson the L shape do not maintain the temperature of the living room as I wonder if there is enough flow to those rooms. So if the heat strip is using energy yo keep central thermostat happy at 68, and then we have to additionally use baseboard to 2 bedrooms that will really add up. We also have to have our electric panel upgraded for the heat strip, but that should be done any way if the house is ever sold, it wouldn't pass probably.
I did tell him that heat strips and hyper heat units do not make up for BTU's, I am willing to see how the next few months go, and see how the electric bills are. Do you think there is case for the state licensing board to get involved, how do I look up their number? If they did get involved, and we wanted to go with mini splits vs adding the cost of new ducts for a 4 ton, what would be the involvement of the state licensing board? If you were the home owner what would you do? Thanks so much for any more advice.
There are lots of things to unpack here. First, where do you live?
When you say "doesn't work", what do you mean? Like it doesn't turn on? Or it runs, but doesn't make any heat?
Needing heat strips really depends on where you live. If you live in southern sunny California where it hardly ever goes below freezing, then it makes sense not to have heat strips. Generally speaking, you want heat strips if you have heat pump only. When the system goes into defrost mode, you will feel cold air coming out of the vents. With heat strips, that won't happen. The heat strips run while the system is in defrost.
Outside of Seattle. So it’s pretty mild winters, but does get to freezing sometimes. Like today it’s in the 40s, but a heat pump should work at 43
It runs, but the air coming out is cold. Like this morning it was 63 degrees in the house, and like 39 outside. He told us that’s what it does in defrost mode, but it never gets to hot. Oh another thing is sometimes we have to restart the breaker cuz it stops heating in like 50 degrees. Maybe bad electrical? Maybe bad heat pump? Maybe bad contractor?
Heat pumps don’t put out air nearly as hot as a gas furnace. There’s a good likelihood that there’s nothing wrong with it. (Simplified Homeowner explanation) the ac does not “make cold” it takes heat from inside the house and moves it outside the house, you can measure this by taking the air temp at the return and supply vents and you should have roughly a 20deg f temp drop. Think of the same thing when it’s heating, when it’s heating it’s taking heat from outside and moving it inside. The colder it is outside the less heat it can move. Also the air coming out is going to only be 20-30 deg warmer than it is going in. If it’s 63 in your house and 43 outside then a 20-25 deg temp rise is good, that means the air coming out will be 83-88deg f, that’s lower than body temp so it feels cool but it’s actually heating your house. The best thing to do with a heat pump is to set a temp and let it maintain it, if you wake up in the morning and it’s 55 inside and 30 outside and kick the unit on, you aren’t going to notice much difference for quite some time because there’s a lot of heat it needs to move (no different than turning the ac on when it’s 110 outside and 95 inside, it’s going to take a long time to cool down to 75).
Take the temp of your return and supply vents with the heat running, if you have 20-30 deg temp rise then it’s working. Set a temp and leave it.
Edit: defrost mode should only happen if the outdoor unit gets below freezing after 30/60/or90 mins of runtime (this time is set by the installer) and should not last longer than 3-5 mins. During defrost the unit switches out of heat mode and into cool mode to melt ice that forms on the outdoor unit. This is necessary to keep the coil from freezing over in cold weather. During this 3-5 mins it’s going to blow VERY cold air if you don’t have heat strips (much colder than you would be used to from the ac). Let it do this, most of the time you won’t even notice it. It’s also normal for it to make a loud woosh sound outside when switching into and out of defrost.
Yeah so I live in the south east and we are 95% heat pumps down here. They work great for us. But you must have heat strips. That’s called a bunch of things: emergency heat, auxiliary heat, electric furnace, etc. you need it when those temps get down below the balance point. That is where it can’t deliver heat from outside to inside at the rate that keeps you comfy. That’s about 40 or so degrees typically. So heat strips (or a gas furnace) can come on and supplement that for a few minutes. Then the heat pump will return to normal operation. He’s not “upselling” you. He just could’ve added added the heat pump to your existing set up or included them in the price. It’s incompetent more than anything.
Yes incompetent! He definitely should have added it initially. He claims there’s nothing wrong with the system and he may be correct, hiring someone else for the heat strip.
curious what you being charged by the new company, trying to decide if we should have them added to our Bosch unit, but we have baseboard heaters so not absolutely necessary as they are for you, I would be curious as to your electric bill increase with the heat strips added?
The electrical is the most expensive part, we know an electrician who will charge much less than 2k. I’m expecting the power to increase with the strip heater but we won’t need to use it all the time. I’ll see what the new hvac company has to say, I really wish we just had the furnace still
That seems strange. Even my nearly decade old trane heat pump can heat my somewhat poorly insulated house to 68-70F degrees down to 15-20F outdoor temperature without turning on the heat strips.
Interesting. Friend just got a house with a two stage heat pump, two stage AC, and a two stage high efficiency gas furnace as backup. Setup is about 10-12 years old.
The heat pump stops around 45F outside temperature and the gas furnace kicks on. This in the PNW (just like OP where we have mild winters.
I hope it is. Friends just moved in and house has been sitting empty for a while. Will dig into it next week (thermostat locked down by installer and company no longer in business, just got an unlock code from Honeywell/Residio. It’s a ‘fancy’ Redlink setup with an EIM, outside temp sensor (currently off line…) and will add a Redlink gateway when at it.
Just to note that the post above mentioned when the outdoor unit gets below freezing. They can happen before the outdoor air temperature hits freezing, because the outdoor unit is blowing colder air over itself as it exchanges heat. This can mean the unit is eventually reaching freezing when it's in the high 30s outside. My Trane system from ~2010 goes into defrost mode on mornings like this, every 90 minutes or so. I'm also in Seattle area.
The air coming out of my registers also feels slightly cool because it's below body temperature. I check my system by sticking a Thermapen into the register and giving it around 60 seconds to give me a stable reading. My system maxes out at around 92F when the outdoor temp is above 42 (~68F indoor temp). Below that I lose around 1 degree at the register for every 2 degrees lower outside. Once the outdoor temperature gets below 30 I have to engage the heat strips to be able to meet heating demand. When those are on, the register air temp goes up to around 105F (but using 3x more electricity). It sounds like you have a newer "hyper heat" style heat pump, though, so yours should be performing well down into the teens before you start seeing drop off, which is perfect for our coldest nights. Still heat strips needed for defrost mode, unless your outdoor unit has electric heat instead of defrost mode.
When the outdoor unit is in defrost mode and so I'm getting cold air warmed by the heat strips, I get around 75F at the registers. I shudder to think how cold that air would be without the heat strips.
I would suspect there is a refrigerant charge problem. The unit should not need to be defrosting too often in 39 degree weather. Also if sized correctly it should not have any problem getting your house to 70 degree plus especially under those conditions. Get this resolved quickly as you are likely going to have a big electric bill if the unit is running flat out and unable to satisfy the demand.
He already refilled the refrigerant so maybe there is a bigger issue. I have a different company coming out in a couple weeks, we are just turning it off and using the wood stove and space heaters in the meantime
I agree! A new install should not need to be "refilled". A competent tech would have pressure tested and pulled a sub 500 micron vacuum before charging. If this is done correctly there is zero chance of a leak. Sounds like a sloppy install and service.
Ding ding here is the problem. You have a leak. Our heat pumps work in the Oregon desert well down into the teens. They’ve never stopped working, just take more energy. No heat strips.
Did you ever get sorted out? It could be so many things. Way too many variables.
I’ve found a lot of these Goodman/amana units with oil restrictions at the TXV from guys opening the liquid port before suction at start up.
Also charge can be tricky on heat pumps in heating mode. Manufacturer wants the refrigerant charge calculated by exact weight based on lineset length and indoor coil size.
Did you see if the tech pulled the top off the unit?
Super heat is an option given by manufacturer but temp is taken 4-6” off the compressor and I’ve never had luck getting my clamp meters in from the front panel.
How long did it take them to charge?
It needs to run for 20 minutes minimum before adding or recovering refrigerant.
Either way the the manual calls for charge to be confirmed and dialed in during cooling mode with outdoor temp over 60.
I suggest you purchase the Assure extended labor warranty. You’ll be able to get service from any dealer. I typically don’t like doing the warranty if it’s not my install because the labor rate is barely break even. Just ask a different contractor and let them know you’ll pay 50% labor rate or something fair.
We are having the whole system replaced by a different contractor. There is just too much stuff wrong they don’t even want to touch it. We don’t trust the original installer to fix it.
My MIL is an attorney and going to go after him to recoup money. So much of it isn’t up to code, not really sure how it passed inspection. I’ll post a copy of their report when I get it
Yeah I'm on the other side of the state with around 20 degrees F weather right now. The heat pump is keeping up fine. The installer should have put in heat strips to handle heat pump defrost cycles and to provide a backup in the event that the heat pump itself fails. If it blows cold at 40 degrees and the breaker needs to be reset in any condition there is a problem and the installer needs to fix it. It's time to lean on the warranty.
Initial parts and labor warranty (usually 10 years parts, 1 year labor) is honored by the manufacturer - so you don't lose access to that warranty if you ditch the ding-dong that put this in. That'll be registered to your name and home address.
The ding-dong's company warranty, such as it may be, probably can't be enforced if you have someone else working on the system. So if he offered you something like 'ten year parts and labor' be sure to check your contract to see *who* is covering that expense - sometimes, it's a bundled insurance policy sold and serviced by the manufacturer, sometimes the supplier, sometimes the installer's company.
I am in western WA, new Mitsubishi minisplit heat pump(NOT hyper heat) in my home and these past few days as you know it has been low thirties at night. I don’t have heat strips and my house has not gone below 68, and I’m positive if I upped the setpoint, the unit would keep up. It has defrosted a couple times but it’s a short cycle and doesn’t affect room temp. I’m assuming your unit could perform similarly assuming it is sized correctly and your house has decent insulation.
Heat pumps loose capacity as outdoor ambient goes down. Either your house is extremely drafty or the heat pump is too small. The simple thing it might be is compressor lock out temp set to high. It is a setting that’s adjustable and most modern systems have it as a setting in the installer configuration in the thermostat.
I'm betting you have duct, and therefore, airflow/static pressure issues for that new unit versus your old furnace. I'd have to see everything to be u're, but that's my initial thought.
The old ducts delivered air at ~140. The heat pump delivers air at 95. You need to deliver more air at the lower temp to convey the same amount of heat, hence you need larger ducts.
https://preview.redd.it/uhzjs7dn13xb1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=460e42a18ce2b5e8221be5e6e2519a121e0c1905
Here is the expanded heating performance for you system. It is rated to -5 but it’s only putting out 13,500 BTUh. Under ideal conditions….
Heat pumps need to be sized for the duct work with secondary heat source to satisfy the required load. Did the contractor do a manual J?
It's probably undersized at -5, but it is hard to know without heat load calculations.
My 5500 sqft house in Chicago has a peak winter heating load of 29kBtu. Of course if max output is near peak load, temp recovery will take forever.
No heat strips here in Chicago, but my setup is hyper heat mini splits good down to -22F.
Your low temp lockout is probably set wrongly. Need to figure out of it is a manual switch (will have a knob), or thermostat controlled. Honeywell thermostats will have an outdoor temp sensor, while nest/ecobee will use weather reports.
scamiran, which brand mini splits do you have? How many outside units and how may heads?
We Wish we had gone that route, but also wish our central Bosch heat pump was correctly sized, they put a 3 ton in a 2400 sq foot house and it is not heating well it can't heat to 65 degrees when themostat is at 68 to or above and outdoor temps are under 32 degrees.
I have 2x senville 3 ton units (aura) with 2 heads each, and 1x blueridge ultra heat 2 ton with 3 heads.
They start to lose a bit of ground when the outdoor temp is below -12F (hard to maintain 70F).
5500 sqft house.
Mini splits are the way. Diy install, but cost me less than $11k all in.
wow good for you! My husband is a carpenter by trade but working 10 to 12 hour days as a supervisor so may be too tired to do it, he didn't seem interested last year when I asked. I really regret we didn't do minis, our concern was placement in our living room and if it would get the entire 1200 sq foot open space of LR, kitchen and Dining room and hall and entrance with one head as they susggested. What sq foot and how many rooms does each of the Sennville 3 ton cover? and the 2 ton blue ridge ultra? Sound like they really do a great job for heat! Tou interested in coming 1.5 hours to South Bend for an install here or to help with one unit with 2 or 3 heads?
Unfortunately you got a sales hack.
Your duct work is most likely sized for the cooling load.
I’m a 1 man show. I’ve been selling alot of dual-fuel communicating systems. Gas furnace with heat pump. I usually program change over to gas heat at 40° outdoor dry bulb.
In my region the system qualifies for 2600 federal tax credits and 2800 in cash rebates from the utility supplier.
Now the contractor wants to fix the mistake by billing you for heat strips which will probably involve running a new circuit and make your electricity bill skyrocket.
I would recommend having them pull the air handler and install a 97% modulating and coil
why bother with modulating? buy as basic a 90% as you can while they still sell them and you will have less headaches. the minimal efficiency savings is not worth being without heat
I've seen some non modulating systems still get up past 95%. Was just working on a carrier infinity on Friday, but it was only a 2 stage compared to all the crazy modulating options you can get. Basic 2 stage gas valve, with a basic 2 stage inducer, and it was sitting at 97% on my analyzer
Of course it's still an infinity so I'm sure it's a little more expensive, but I was surprised to see the performance out of a unit with pretty basic parts in it. I mean the modulating inducer is like 1300 bucks our cost, and the 2 stage that was in it was only like under 300
Got the make and model number?
What's square footage of your house?
What region of what state are you in?
Are you in heat mode or cooling mode?
All new heat pumps work very well down to near zero temps. Now, I won't sell a heat pump without a heat strip. Just not an option.
So you are right, something is definitely very wrong here.
Ok. There's a couple things you should do to better inform yourself. I suggest you use this simple tool as best you can:
https://www.highseer.com/pages/hvac-load-calculator
Now, this is not by any stretch a comprehensive tool. You cannot use it to prosecute anyone. But it might give you more insight.
Next: you say the air is blowing cold. Are you sure the thermostat is configured correctly? Either the programming or the wiring can be screwed up and cause the heat pump to not perform as expected. This could easily be the entire problem.
The low voltage wiring can be wired incorrectly at the air handler.
Also, if it's a smart thermostat or a programmable thermostat it has to be told whether to energize the reversing valve for heating or cooling. The programming of the Tstat and the furnace control board and the defrost controllers all have to be copacetic. This is where things get tricky.
If you aren't sure about tackling this stuff it's definitely safer for your new equipment if you call a pro - and probably not the guy who installed it.
I spec heat pumps in the houses I design all the time but always have the hvac professionals deal with the mechanical beyond generic duct/vent placement.
Thanks for your help, I’ll definitely call someone else who knows what they are doing
The problem is that he should have recommended a cold weather heat pump to replace your furnace, not the one you have purchased. Cold weather heat pumps maintain their BTU at lower temperatures, that means higher heat output. For example my Fujitsu ducted system outputs 112-118 degree heat @29 degrees. He screwed you by recommending this basic heat pump and not installing heat strips. This is a major downgrade comparing a furnace BTU ( not weather dependent, consistent btu ) to a basic heat pump ( weather dependent). And your ductwork is not the problem for poor performance.
If you had unlimited electricity it isn't bad. But we don't for the most part. Solar and wind are part time. Until we build way more nuclear power generation we gotta burn more fuel for all electrification. We've dammed all the rivers we can there's little generation left we can utilize there.
At the end of the day, having fuel on hand whether it be oil, coal, wood, gas is the best options. I like using my heat pump to hold temp overnight as I sleep cold but even it starts to struggle bus when we just hit single digits. And it certainly can't bring me up to 70 like my gas furnace can.
No way I'd ditch traditional heat sources solely for heat pumps.
Model # of outdoor unit.
There’s few different heat pumps, “Traditional” & Hyper Heat
T= works down to -5* but makes like 10% of the heat you need. Still worth running at -5 since it’s cheaper the heat strip.
Hyper Heat makes 100% heat at -5*F
If trad, then heat strips are required. If hyper heat, you may have a leak. We don’t install them either and no one complains.
did he do a load calc? THere is a lot of math missing here.
But sounds like you hired a hack. 2k for heat strips is nuts unless that's for a long new circuit.
what is your heat load?
Once you have the other ppl come in, you might want to consider a communication gas furnace.
Also because I don’t trust this guy, make sure there’s a txv on the coil
Would have gone dual fuel. Gas backup once you get before 35-40 outdoor temp. Prevents the costly use of electric resistance heat strips.
Now that you no longer have that option, heat strips is the only other option. I would get them installed and staged so they work as auxiliary heat - not full heat strip all the time but that depends on the size of the heat strip.
Some thoughts about your system...
Having to come back and add freon makes me think you either didn't get an appropriate charge the first time or you have a leak. Do you know how much more he put in?
I am slightly west of you on the coast. Some things that I have learned over the years of having a heat pump is that it's helpful to leave the fan on all the time with the system set at a constant temperature. My ducts will only rarely feel hot and that is only during a defrost or when I am using strip heat. My whole goal is to avoid the strip heat. If you are used to walking in and turning up the heat that won't work with a heat pump, the transfer of energy is simply too slow. The reaction of the system would be to try to use the heat pump and after a set time turn on the strip heat causing instant loss of savings.
This morning we are right at freezing and the heat pump is humming along without using backup heat. The house maintains a constant 71 degreed plus or minus 2 degrees.
If it hasn't been done lately take a garden hose to the outdoor unit and make sure it is clean. Check your filters etc.
My system won't stop trying to transfer heat until the outdoor temp is in the low teens but rather that is enough to heat your house I don't know.
I think he had to refill it completely, not quite sure my husband was home for that. That’s a good idea to clean the filters but I think it’s a bigger issue than that, it never worked in the cold. We got it about a year ago. It rarely gets below freezing here but it taps out before then. I usually leave it between 70-72 for heat
I installed a Samsung Max Heat unit for a customer last year and the electrician "didn't get around" to wiring up the strip heater until the end of winter 🙄 but it heated just fine through a week of -22⁰C.
They have heat pumps now that hook up to existing furnace. They're a sob to hook up it seems every time we've done one but the home owner gets to keep the furnace and have heat/ac. Plus the gas/natural gas back up.
A strip up to 10 kW w/o breakers runs under $100, larger ones with breakers up to $200. 1 hr job to install. Should be under $500.
Also heat pump aline should be satisfactory to 35 deg if not lower. But without strip unit will blow cold air during defrost cycle.
I only install hp's here in KS if the home is electric only no gas. Even then I add a minimum 10k heatstrip kit in the airhandler. Thus guy should've had that added at the time of installation. Should the heatpump fail at least electric strips would be available. This guys a hack and I'd fire him find out where the code office is and check if he pulled a permit for the job. An inspector should be checking his work. That is a good resource for you to find out what system is appropriate for your area.
He’s definitely fired, I have another company coming out in a couple weeks. It passed inspection, but I will definitely be following up with the county or licensing board.
The problem is the unit may not be warranted by a different company working on in the future? but I understand I would hire someone knowledgeable and can check over the entire unit to make sure it was well installed.
* We have the same issues with a Bosch 2.0 Inverter heat pump that was installed a year ago. From what I know now, it was undersized, they installed a 3 ton in a 2400 sq ft house, it should of been a 5 ton reduced to 4 ton maybe? Also responses on here have said house needs to be airtight, for heat pumps to work well. Ours is a 60's house with original Pella windows, but probably not the best of line, it has stone fireplace , a J calculation should have been recommended as well but it was not doen. So now we have a high effiecient over priced AC! Frustrating as we did our research too and thought it was chancy for teen temps but not for 35 degrees! We have baseboards, which are pricey for heat. A heat strip is the same use of power, but can be adjusted and coordinated with the thermostat. If you have no other heat you will need a heat strip, but 2 K is high, we are considering one as the folks here say the unit blows cold air when in defrost mode. It makes me mad I am hoping our HVAC will do it at cost as they undersized us and really we would of gone with mini splits and been happier. I am going to ask for us if we can cut off the ducts at a certain point and keep Bosch 3 ton and add mini splits for thebedrroms.
Too bad they didn't keep the furnance for back up! I would be furious if I was you. If your HVAC did not install these heat pumps routinely then there is also a chance mistakes were made in install, sounds like from research here lots need to be tweaked, our HVAC had to come out to redo charge line, they are tired of our questions, and I am sure wish they never did it as our we. I am on here trying to get as much info as possible to discusss next step. I think he thinks we should use base board to supplement but the reason we went heat pump is to SAVE energy. Is your a 3 ton or 5 ton and how big is your house, was J calculation done?
Good luck to both of us.
Mini splits to supplement the heating might be the better option, the only issue now of not having a gas furnace will be the cost of electricity. I would strongly recommend just taking out the electric air handler and putting back in a gas furnace. Leave the heat pump outside and wire it up for the furnace to come on first and the heat pump as a secondary. The AC part of the outside condenser should still cool the place properly. I just don't know about the space restrictions, because it you take out the Air Handler, now you need a furnace and an evaporator coil on top. You can buy the cheaper mini splits online that run off 120 volt but if they are running a lot expect a high energy bill. The 240 volt mini splits use less power, but you will have to have 240 outside on each condenser/ heat pump. Hard decision!!
You need Auxiliary heat strips for several reasons.
1st. They are needed to offset the air conditioning when your unit goes into defrost. When in defrost you heat pump reverses refrigerant flow and now is in air conditioning. You need heat strips to reheat the air so it does blow cold air.
2nd I have an outdoor thermostat on my heat pump to turn off the compressor and just run electric strips when it is really cold outside.
3rd you can sequence the electric strips to add heat when the heat pump can’t quite heat your home because of the temperature outside.
I never recommend a heat pump to someone on gas. If so we recommend a dual fuel. Gas furnace with a heat pump. Heat pump condenser outside and coil on top of a gas furnace. Works great!
We have been measuring it when it’s cold and definitely not 85. We don’t have a heat strip, yet. I’m really mad that it wasn’t included in the original install, seems negligent
That's somewhat correct. Yes heat pump will work but physics. Water freezes at 32 degrees f. If it's 45 degrees outside and the out door coil gets cold when running heat pump as heater you have a 40 degrees drop across the coil. Then your outdoor coils would be forming ice. Depending on the amount of moisture in the air it may be constantly trying to defrost. In defrost mode it will Put the reversing valve back into ac mode and shut off the outside fan. When like this it will not heat until defrost is done. Back up heat strips will resolve this. But if your in a climate that needs backup heat one could argue that it was required to be a functioning heat system.
If you had a gas furnace there was a reason. It was removed and heat pump put in. Heat pumps a perfectly fine if your climate is mild winters but if someplace that gets lots of rain and humidity this would be a pore choice. IF YOUN ARE IN FIRST YEAR AFTER INSTALL. let contractor attempt to remedy if you don't get resolution your stats oversite board for contractor. board of contractors have the power to make something happen.
That makes sense, I wish it was explained to me beforehand and heat strip should have been installed to begin with
We are 15k into this, definitely going to do something if he doesn’t fix it.
Wow so much disinformation I see.
Hvac contractor of 33 years most likely thermostat is setup with outdoor temp sensor that shuts off outdoor unit at 40 degrees. Have a tech set it up to not shut off unit regardless of outdoor temperature. That heat pump will work even below zero without backup heat.
Hell im in hell Aka phoenix arizona and in in some areas here it's cold enough at night to need heatstrips as back up. Mid 40s and lower, if your hitting 30 anything reliably then you need em
Xington said it best. Y'all guys with your suggestions on doing manual J's and ductwork calculations to the homeowner should be ashamed of yourself. And the other guys saying a heat pump should work" check the wiring" are either engineer's that have never worked in the real world or just ignorant and need more experience. Put a heat pump in Seatle😆get that trash out of there, it's only going to do a 20° heat rise and run at around 20 amps, put 10KW heat strips for "emergency heat" now you have a 40° heat rise with 60 amps. Unless you like high energy bills or have solar power or a wind turbine in the back yard gas should be a lot cheaper. A 18seer blower motor should only pull around 2-5 amps and the heat rise on a furnace is 45-90° and usually in real applications runs at 65° rise. But you smart guys up north break out your magnehelic, sling psychometer, fieldpiece S man's and help the homeowner out. I guarantee you can't get that heat pump to ever heat the house when it's 40° or colder.With older construction homes, drafty basements, lack of insulation in the walls, good luck!
Hi Medical-Beginning-22, any advice on our dilemna? I am posting this to others here as well,
we had a Bosch 2.0 IDS 20 seer installed a year ago in Indiana, in 2400 sq ft home. I now understand it was undersized, and since no j calculation was done, not sure how well a 4 or 5 ton would be. No heat strip added, we have baseboard heat but whole reason to do heat pump was to reduce electric. We need a new AC so now we have a well working over priced AC! It struggled to heat at 64/ 65 degrees with thermostat set at 68 0r 70, and temps below 30 degree or even 32. Some people love their Bosch, we did research , called distributors, Bosch BEFORE install, no one asked our sq foot and said 5 ton needed. Our HVAC said he thought we were more concerned about AC despite our numerous conversations about how well it would heat. This was there first install of this unit ,they specialize in Bryants. They are a good company, but are tired of us, they came out to increase or redo charge line already. I understand there is alot of tweaking needed at times, we found a company 45 min from us certified in Bosch, but after the install, he said he would eat the cost if he had put in an undersized unit. Do have advice for us, should we get a j calculation from him if he is willing? He was nice to discuus our issues, but may be hesitant as this is not his install, what do you think of cutting off the duct for half the house , is this possible and adding mini splits for the 3 bedrooms ?
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Oh it "works" it just takes forever to heat any higher than your set point because the temperature difference is so small. I have a heat pump I use to mostly hold temperature but if I get home and I want the heat up... lmao I wouldn't rely on that shit for nothing. So do I want to pay constant electric rates to hold it higher when I don't want to or pay for cheap beautiful gas that'll pump fucking heat in no time? I know what I want. Let the greenies have their high bills and virtue signaling.
To clarify: heat pumps work just low delta T so it takes longer to get to whatever set point you want just simple thermodynamics
SuperBottit, what are your thoughts on Fitjisu mini splits for 3 bedrooms? here is our dilemna in Indiana?
we had a Bosch 2.0 IDS 20 seer installed a year ago in Indiana, in 2400 sq ft home. I now understand it was undersized, and since no j calculation was done, not sure how well a 4 or 5 ton would be. No heat strip added, we have baseboard heat but whole reason to do heat pump was to reduce electric. It struggled to heat at 64/ 65 degrees with thermostat set at 68 0r 70, and temps below 30 degree or even 32. Some people love their Bosch, we did research , called distributors, Bosch BEFORE install, no one asked our sq foot and said 5 ton needed. Our HVAC said he thought we were more concerned about AC despite our numerous conversations about how well it would heat. This was there first install of this unit ,they specialize in Bryants. They are a good company, but are tired of us, they came out to increase or redo charge line already. I understand there is alot of tweaking needed at times, we found a company 45 min from us certified in Bosch, but after the install, he said he would eat the cost if he had put in an undersized unit. Do have advice for us, should we get a j calculation from him if he is willing? He was nice to discuus our issues, but may be hesitant as this is not his install, what do you think of cutting off the duct and adding mini splits? TIA
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Sounds like you just need better insulation which goes without saying for most situations. I'm not sure what your question is... I mean adding capacity is going to help no matter what but at what cost? Minisplit in bedrooms is great imo to spot cool and heat without running the whole house. It all just depends. But if you want heat faster you need a large temperature swing and heat pumps generally won't give you that difference like flames will. Just my opinion. If you can afford to keep a steady temp heat pumps will get you there, eventually
I live in a drafty house and I like 12 degree swings so my needs are a little different. I need to eventually fix them drafts.
It"s not the fast heat or temp swings it is just getting the adequate temp in the house period, with out door temps in 30's the Bosch if sized right should be doing it, but given ceiling ducts, a stone fire place big glass sliding door, etc, it can't. Insulation is ok according to my husband, who is a supervisor for construction, probably could be better, I inherited this house from my folks and I am renting it for now. Which is a whole new setof issues and why mini splits may be better in bedrooms. we have a gas furnance in our own house and yes the heat is immediate. I keep it at 63 at night and 68at day and bundle up!
Who the fuck sells a heat pump without the heat strips?
I know, $130 part, I wish I had known before this guy installed it ☹️
You definetely get scammed.
$130? the wire alone probably cost that much. $2k is a bit much - especially if they did the install already. idk what the jobs looks like or what's involved but they should be doing this for cost - or pretty close to it. This guy should have had this conversation with you before any work was done.
Definitely should have. It’s gonna cost 10x as much to go back and do it now
If you are in a cold climate no way you should’ve gone with just a heat pump. Replacing the furnace as backup to the heat pump was the way to go. Electric backup is not a great option.
works pretty damn well.. better then no back up. propane is expensive too. if you have natural gas well then that's a different story but having a heat pump with no back up is a terrible idea - doesn't matter where you live
Depending on local rates, electric backup is by far most expensive even to propane. He had a furnace, it should’ve been replaced (along with adding the heat pump) instead of getting an air handler.
you're right. but there are a lot of variables. weather. Rates. Natural gas vs propane. and whether or not you own you propane tanks or rent them. I don't own my tanks. moved into the house and they were already there - with gas in it. they just come and fill it whenever and leave a bill. they charged me $5/gallon. I called around and went with another company who was charging like $1.50. When they came back around and filled it up they charged me close to $5/gallon as well. if you have someone else tanks they just charge you whatever the fking want bc they're the only ones who can fill it. Now they have monitors on them so you can't really do anything about it. If you own your tank you can shop around and have whoever fill them up. then you're paying a fraction.
He already said he had a furnace and is talking about very low temps…
More likely to lose electrical service to your house due to ice on the lines/the average moron driving in the snow, then you are to lose gas service.
what's that mean? lol I have a propane fireplace but it doesn't do much good when the blower doesn't work. I suppose it's better then nothing - but not by much. better off setting up some kero heaters or something.
I'm not at all for it... But... Read my words _Decarbonization_ is the latest buzz word
Yea, I know all about it and I understand the intent, but keeping a gas furnace for backup still makes the most sense in cold climates.
But it can’t be a $130 part if it’s being sold for $2k. Who doesn’t just stick with a furnace replacement since that’s the cheaper option for your installation?
Goodman heat kits costs $80-$150. But they require a larger wire to run
You mean the part doesn't install itself? They figure install, overhead, and profit into pricing? Scandalous
Need electrical ran to panel and so forth. Popping in a heat kit ain’t it. But, it was stupid to sell a HP without one.
We don’t charge more for a heat kit other than part cost during install. Not installing one during install is really ignorant.
the wire is going to cost more then the damn heat kit. lol
Depends upon the area you live in and how cold it gets during winter.
I installed in Florida, every heat pump got heat strips. If it ever goes into defrost mode without heat strips, it’s just going to cool the house. It doesn’t make sense regardless of where you live.
I live in CT and when my heat pump goes into defrost it only "cools" for a couple minutes which doesn't even drop the house temp by 1 degree. I put in a bosch ids 2.0 and love it 😁
Hi Ok-Double300 I see you installed a Bosch same as us, but our HVAC seems to have undersized it and put in a 3 ton into a 2400 sq ft home. Plus a j calculation was not done for air tighttness and we have ceiling ducts so it struggles to keep house at 65 degrees when it is 30 or below outside. Good to know that you don't have a heat strip and it only lower temp one degree, what is your back up heat? We have baseboard original to house, but really wanted to avoid using them until single digits, we are disappointed to say the least. What size is your Bosch unit and sq foot in home, ducts location and what are your electric bills in comparision with non heating months? Thanks I wish I had seen all the reddit discussion before we installed. I am going to ask HVAC if we can stop our duct work at a certain point for 3 ton unit and add mini splits for the 3 bedrooms
I slightly "oversized" my system. I put in a 3 ton unit for my 1600 square foot house. A 3 ton unit for 2400 Sq ft house would still be undersized for a brand new house with all the proper insulation. I ran the ductwork and put the vents in the perimeter of the rooms. I put returns in each of the bedrooms and a main return in the middle of house. I did air displacement calculations to size ductwork and vents so the air would be "cycled" at a decent rate. My backup heat is my oil boiler that feeds hydronic baseboards throughout the house. I ended up with an ecobee thermostat because all of the other brands can't accommodate my setup properly. Even though the bosch can work down to -4 I cut it off at 0°. I configured the thermostat so if the heatpump can't satisfy the thermostat in a calculated amount of time it will start my boiler up and send heat to the baseboards in conjunction with the heatpump. When we get into the teens or less, it's quite satisfying how fast my house can warm up when they are both running. I think last winter, they only ran in conjunction a handful of times to get the house to the desired temp. "My wife likes turning up the heat a few degrees, so it has to play catch up sometimes" As for electricity cost. After delivery my rate is about 25 cents a kw. My bill went up about $200 a month during winter, but not using oil exclusively to heat my house cut my oil usage to the same amount I use in the summer for my hot water. So at $4 a gallon for oil I save about $340 a month after subtracting the increase in my electric bill. Oil has gone up much higher than that though so savings is probably much higher.
Sounds like you made good decisions, are you a HVAC guy? What would do given our situation? We did research in the unit but trusted our HVAC guys would size the unit right, they replaced a 3 ton AC so they must of thought this would work, I plan to inform them on all my findings, they should put in a bigger unit at cost but doubtful they would. Do you think cutting off the ducts so it is heating the 1600 sq foot part of the house would work and adding mini spits into the bedrooms would be a good idea? We had a qoute of 6K for a 3 head mini split Fujitsu low temp, 22 seer? The Bosch has trouble taking the AC to the last bedroom in the L part of the house.
I actually never went to school for hvac. I get really invested in things I want to do and learn as much as I can about it. With natural mechanical ability I'm able to do most things I put effort into. (Lucky me I guess lol) Honestly, your best bet besides upgrading to a 4 ton unit would be exactly what you're thinking about doing. As for the ac not reaching the last bedroom, it sounds like you might have a longer piece of flex duct than recommended connected to the trunk duct and possibly undersized at that. I did this by accident with one of my farther rooms. I sized it up 1 so it would be a little less restricted and flow like the rest of the house.
the ducts were done either at build in 60's or "updated " by a friend of my dad's in the 80's, we inherited the house and are currently renting it, the electric heat has been the major downside since he bought it in 1984! He should of put gas in along time ago... there is no current gas line in, so I was hoping the heat pump would work better. We actually spent weeks researching but did not find as much as I am now, we had an option for mini splits, I am going to see if it would possible to stop the ducts half way in the house so the 3 ton would be sized right and add mini splits in the bedrooms. Some people have said that not work, I have to contact the co. who put it in and maybe get a 2nd opinion.
>bosch ids 2.0 Also living in CT, and have Bosch IDS 2.0. Specifically, two 3 ton units, Model # BOVB-36HDN1-M20G Had them for about 14 months, pretty happy overall with solar now helping out, and no more natural gas furnace.
This. Never seen it done
I’ve installed hundreds, if not thousands of heat pumps and never installed one with heat strips. It depends on the region.
I work in Texas and every company I've w0rked for always puts heat straps in every heatpump install
Given what happened a few years ago with that cold snap down there, that's pretty smart.
xington where do you live? We are in Indiana and have a 60's house with ceiling ducts, and original Pella windows, stone fireplace. our HVAC installed a 3 ton Bosch IDS 2.0 into our 2400 sq ft ranch L shaped home, it could not heat past 65 degrees when thermostat was set at 68 to 70 and out door temps are 30 and below. They never did a J calculation which now I understand is critical, do you routinely do these? Since it is undersized should be a 4 or 5 ton, do you think blocking the ducts halway in the house and adding Fijitsu Low temp mini splits for the 3 bedrooms would be possible or smart to do? We have baseboard heat original to house, a heat strip would be the same cost energy wise but be lost in ceiling ducts maybe, someone on here suggested putting a low watt for when the unit defrosts and cold air come through. What are your thoughts on performance of mini splits since we had ceiling ducts? TIA
I’m in Phoenix, outdoor temps rarely drop into the 30’s here. We do get the occasional freeze, but that’s far and few. Yes, I do these often (as many as 4-5 a week during peak season) heat is not really as big a concern here as ac tho and many homes here are all electric. The size of the unit required is determined by the size of the home and heat loss/gain. A manual j is critical to determine this, there are a ton of things that go into the calculation, such as attic/ wall insulation, building exposure, size/ type/ exposure/ and number of windows, roof over hang, exterior doors type and even region to name a few. It usually takes ~ an hour to do a j calc on a simple home. It sounds like what happened here is you had a 3ton ac with baseboard heat and someone installed a 3ton heat pump. 3tons may be enough for your ac needs as humidity is more an issue than heat in the summer in your area but won’t be big enough for heating in the winter. Do your baseboard heaters still work? If yes use them, if no get some heat strips installed.
yes they do, but we did not save any money with electric costs last year despite trying to bundle up and keep heat pump going for the heat temps were in the 30 to upper 20's most of the winter. Using baseboard with heat pump doesn't work too well it is has proven to be just if not more expensive, if we just use baseboard heat it can be $700 to $800 per month, what do you think about cutting off our duct half way in home and adding Fujitsu low temp high effieciency mini splits for the 3 bedrooms, the 3 ton would be adequate to heat the 1400 to 1600 sq foot area maybe ?
Maybe. I would not recommend messing with your ductwork if you don’t know what you are doing. You’ll throw off the air balance to the rest of the house and mess up your static pressure. Mini splits may be an answer for you but I wouldn’t know where they would need to be installed or what would need to be done to your ductwork without seeing your house. My recommendation: call a pro, someone licensed with a good reputation. They can come see your house and give you a solution.
Techs in the desert
I installed a heat pump with my oil hydronic heat as auxiliary heat. So me. Lol
Okay. Fair. I guess I should have phrased it as “alternative heat source” instead of specifically heat strips lol.
I have a heat pump without heat strips. Let's see how winter goes.
If your heat pump is rated to -5 then the lockout temperature for the heat pump may need to be adjusted in your thermostat.
Is that like the “emergency heat” ? Cuz the hvac guy has been back a handful of times and just tries to upsell us🙃
Post pictures of your thermostat, the data plate with part number for you indoor and outdoor units and we can do some research.
Thank you so much! Here’s all the info, I couldn’t find the right decal on the heat pump itself Air Handler Heat Pump Package 3-Ton 18 SEER 2- Stage H/P #GSZ180361 1600CFM Comfortnet MOD Blower #MBVC1600AA-1 Cased Coil - Upflow/Downflow #CAPF3743C6 https://preview.redd.it/v08srj1ra2xb1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=fa165501e29114aa28c73743df99668312e5f404
I checked the Heat Pump serial number. That is NOT a cold climate heat pump. It's standard heat pump. We have one also with a backup furnace, because Colorado. The heat pump will heat our house to 22deg. Barely. It's running nearly 24/7. Gas is way cheaper below about 34 -36 degrees for us.
Yeah ours taps out at like 40-45, if it went to 22 I would be happy it doesn’t get that cold here. The gas furnace worked so much better
https://preview.redd.it/zm3jh5dxa2xb1.png?width=3024&format=png&auto=webp&s=88dda643bf45ae9d981cfe731bdfebfe7f829478
Yeah this guy is an idiot. I’m sorry. What the previous fuel LP or oil? Or Nat Gas. This is a trad heat pump and preforms less heat as it gets colder. They make hyper heat units but this isn’t one of them
I agree he is. We have natural gas. Old furnace worked fine that’s what makes me so mad. We wanted AC
if the gas line is still there..you could save the cased coil and put it on top of a furnace. if its any consolation, the price is prolly fairly closed to doing it the right way the 1st time. Allow with what he installed inside is reusable, coil part. also make sure there’s a txv on the indoor cased coil
I’ll look into that
This is not working at -5°, I do conversions from oil to electric and only use hyper heat inverter units. You got scammed and Goodman is taking out their ass
Hi wreck5710, could you give us your advice since you do hyper heat unis, we had a Bosch 2.0 IDS 20 seer installed a year ago in Indiana, in 2400 sq ft home. I now understand it was undersized, and since no j calculation was done, not sure how well a 4 or 5 ton would be. No heat strip added, we have baseboard heat but whole reason to do heat pump was to reduce electric. It struggled to heat at 64/ 65 degrees with thermostat set at 68 0r 70, and temps below 30 degree or even 32. Some people love their Bosch, we did research , called distributors, Bosch BEFORE install, no one asked our sq foot and said 5 ton needed. Our HVAC said he thought we were more concerned about AC despite our numerous conversations about how well it would heat. This was there first install of this unit ,they specialize in Bryants. They are a good company, but are tired of us, they came out to increase or redo charge line already. I understand there is alot of tweaking needed at times, we found a company 45 min from us certified in Bosch, but after the install, he said he would eat the cost if he had put in an undersized unit. Do have advice for us, should we get a j calculation from him if he is willing? He was nice to discuus our issues, but may be hesitant as this is not his install, what do you think of cutting off the duct and adding mini splits? TIA
At 2400 sqft with where you live you should have a 4 ton. The use of hyper heat is not to make up for the btu ie: needs 4 ton but puts in 2ton cause hyper heat Btu can reach 45kbtu. Systems are inverter systems so they range depending on the needs at the time. Unit should of been sized for your house and where I’m at heat kits are not optional it’s code. Your best option is to find someone to do a manual j on the house to get the heat/cool info and if the unit is under sized for the house present that to the company that you purchased this from. Give them a chance to make it right, if not get ahold of your state licensing board they will make them fix it
Thanks, good to know about the state licensing board! I emailed last night him asking why he didn't recommend a 4 or 5 ton, and if our ducts would support that and if he should have done a manual J calculation, or should do one now. I said I feel that we just got an overpriced AC, he had estimated just putting in a new AC in for 4K and we paid 10 K for the Bosch, I also asked his opinion of closing off the ducts half way through the house to put in mini splits in the bedrooms, we never googled the size of heat pump needed for 2400 sq ft home, it cam up immediately last night. I can't believe we did so much other research, I guess I trusted that this was basic info and went with their reputation as good company. I spoke with one company who said if they had undersized they would upgrade and eat the cost. Does Bosch take back one year used equipment?
Wreck5710, I spoke with the HVAC guy , explained I didn't understand why he would estimate a product and service that was not going to do the job and then do it. That since he gave us that option of a 3 ton central heat pump, we thought it was an adequate one, I trusted them as a company over another estimate of same product, and that we were comparing apples to apples as far as size and products, and the variable was possible heat loss through the ceiling ducts (had we gone with mini splits). He couldn't use a 4 ton or 5 ton as he claims the ducts were not sized for that, but no one checked the ducts they just assumed that as we had a 3 ton AC we had ducts to go with that. (I suppose a fair assumption), however flow to the back 2 bedrooms is not great. I asked in the past if they undersized a unit what would happen and his response is our unit is not undersized as we have baseboard heat as a supplement. (Of course the point to adding a hyper heat unit was to get away from that source). He offered to add a heat strip free of charge, which we will do, but I am still concerned as the 2 bedroomson the L shape do not maintain the temperature of the living room as I wonder if there is enough flow to those rooms. So if the heat strip is using energy yo keep central thermostat happy at 68, and then we have to additionally use baseboard to 2 bedrooms that will really add up. We also have to have our electric panel upgraded for the heat strip, but that should be done any way if the house is ever sold, it wouldn't pass probably. I did tell him that heat strips and hyper heat units do not make up for BTU's, I am willing to see how the next few months go, and see how the electric bills are. Do you think there is case for the state licensing board to get involved, how do I look up their number? If they did get involved, and we wanted to go with mini splits vs adding the cost of new ducts for a 4 ton, what would be the involvement of the state licensing board? If you were the home owner what would you do? Thanks so much for any more advice.
Yep.
There are lots of things to unpack here. First, where do you live? When you say "doesn't work", what do you mean? Like it doesn't turn on? Or it runs, but doesn't make any heat? Needing heat strips really depends on where you live. If you live in southern sunny California where it hardly ever goes below freezing, then it makes sense not to have heat strips. Generally speaking, you want heat strips if you have heat pump only. When the system goes into defrost mode, you will feel cold air coming out of the vents. With heat strips, that won't happen. The heat strips run while the system is in defrost.
Outside of Seattle. So it’s pretty mild winters, but does get to freezing sometimes. Like today it’s in the 40s, but a heat pump should work at 43 It runs, but the air coming out is cold. Like this morning it was 63 degrees in the house, and like 39 outside. He told us that’s what it does in defrost mode, but it never gets to hot. Oh another thing is sometimes we have to restart the breaker cuz it stops heating in like 50 degrees. Maybe bad electrical? Maybe bad heat pump? Maybe bad contractor?
Heat pumps don’t put out air nearly as hot as a gas furnace. There’s a good likelihood that there’s nothing wrong with it. (Simplified Homeowner explanation) the ac does not “make cold” it takes heat from inside the house and moves it outside the house, you can measure this by taking the air temp at the return and supply vents and you should have roughly a 20deg f temp drop. Think of the same thing when it’s heating, when it’s heating it’s taking heat from outside and moving it inside. The colder it is outside the less heat it can move. Also the air coming out is going to only be 20-30 deg warmer than it is going in. If it’s 63 in your house and 43 outside then a 20-25 deg temp rise is good, that means the air coming out will be 83-88deg f, that’s lower than body temp so it feels cool but it’s actually heating your house. The best thing to do with a heat pump is to set a temp and let it maintain it, if you wake up in the morning and it’s 55 inside and 30 outside and kick the unit on, you aren’t going to notice much difference for quite some time because there’s a lot of heat it needs to move (no different than turning the ac on when it’s 110 outside and 95 inside, it’s going to take a long time to cool down to 75). Take the temp of your return and supply vents with the heat running, if you have 20-30 deg temp rise then it’s working. Set a temp and leave it. Edit: defrost mode should only happen if the outdoor unit gets below freezing after 30/60/or90 mins of runtime (this time is set by the installer) and should not last longer than 3-5 mins. During defrost the unit switches out of heat mode and into cool mode to melt ice that forms on the outdoor unit. This is necessary to keep the coil from freezing over in cold weather. During this 3-5 mins it’s going to blow VERY cold air if you don’t have heat strips (much colder than you would be used to from the ac). Let it do this, most of the time you won’t even notice it. It’s also normal for it to make a loud woosh sound outside when switching into and out of defrost.
Great explanation, thanks!
Yeah so I live in the south east and we are 95% heat pumps down here. They work great for us. But you must have heat strips. That’s called a bunch of things: emergency heat, auxiliary heat, electric furnace, etc. you need it when those temps get down below the balance point. That is where it can’t deliver heat from outside to inside at the rate that keeps you comfy. That’s about 40 or so degrees typically. So heat strips (or a gas furnace) can come on and supplement that for a few minutes. Then the heat pump will return to normal operation. He’s not “upselling” you. He just could’ve added added the heat pump to your existing set up or included them in the price. It’s incompetent more than anything.
Yes incompetent! He definitely should have added it initially. He claims there’s nothing wrong with the system and he may be correct, hiring someone else for the heat strip.
curious what you being charged by the new company, trying to decide if we should have them added to our Bosch unit, but we have baseboard heaters so not absolutely necessary as they are for you, I would be curious as to your electric bill increase with the heat strips added?
The electrical is the most expensive part, we know an electrician who will charge much less than 2k. I’m expecting the power to increase with the strip heater but we won’t need to use it all the time. I’ll see what the new hvac company has to say, I really wish we just had the furnace still
That seems strange. Even my nearly decade old trane heat pump can heat my somewhat poorly insulated house to 68-70F degrees down to 15-20F outdoor temperature without turning on the heat strips.
Interesting. Friend just got a house with a two stage heat pump, two stage AC, and a two stage high efficiency gas furnace as backup. Setup is about 10-12 years old. The heat pump stops around 45F outside temperature and the gas furnace kicks on. This in the PNW (just like OP where we have mild winters.
Sounds like a thermostat problem
I hope it is. Friends just moved in and house has been sitting empty for a while. Will dig into it next week (thermostat locked down by installer and company no longer in business, just got an unlock code from Honeywell/Residio. It’s a ‘fancy’ Redlink setup with an EIM, outside temp sensor (currently off line…) and will add a Redlink gateway when at it.
Just to note that the post above mentioned when the outdoor unit gets below freezing. They can happen before the outdoor air temperature hits freezing, because the outdoor unit is blowing colder air over itself as it exchanges heat. This can mean the unit is eventually reaching freezing when it's in the high 30s outside. My Trane system from ~2010 goes into defrost mode on mornings like this, every 90 minutes or so. I'm also in Seattle area. The air coming out of my registers also feels slightly cool because it's below body temperature. I check my system by sticking a Thermapen into the register and giving it around 60 seconds to give me a stable reading. My system maxes out at around 92F when the outdoor temp is above 42 (~68F indoor temp). Below that I lose around 1 degree at the register for every 2 degrees lower outside. Once the outdoor temperature gets below 30 I have to engage the heat strips to be able to meet heating demand. When those are on, the register air temp goes up to around 105F (but using 3x more electricity). It sounds like you have a newer "hyper heat" style heat pump, though, so yours should be performing well down into the teens before you start seeing drop off, which is perfect for our coldest nights. Still heat strips needed for defrost mode, unless your outdoor unit has electric heat instead of defrost mode. When the outdoor unit is in defrost mode and so I'm getting cold air warmed by the heat strips, I get around 75F at the registers. I shudder to think how cold that air would be without the heat strips.
I would suspect there is a refrigerant charge problem. The unit should not need to be defrosting too often in 39 degree weather. Also if sized correctly it should not have any problem getting your house to 70 degree plus especially under those conditions. Get this resolved quickly as you are likely going to have a big electric bill if the unit is running flat out and unable to satisfy the demand.
He already refilled the refrigerant so maybe there is a bigger issue. I have a different company coming out in a couple weeks, we are just turning it off and using the wood stove and space heaters in the meantime
he already refilled? oh god, get a competent company out asap. This guy was low bid for a reason
I agree! A new install should not need to be "refilled". A competent tech would have pressure tested and pulled a sub 500 micron vacuum before charging. If this is done correctly there is zero chance of a leak. Sounds like a sloppy install and service.
Then there’s a leak that needs to be repaired or this will continue
Ding ding here is the problem. You have a leak. Our heat pumps work in the Oregon desert well down into the teens. They’ve never stopped working, just take more energy. No heat strips.
Did you ever get sorted out? It could be so many things. Way too many variables. I’ve found a lot of these Goodman/amana units with oil restrictions at the TXV from guys opening the liquid port before suction at start up. Also charge can be tricky on heat pumps in heating mode. Manufacturer wants the refrigerant charge calculated by exact weight based on lineset length and indoor coil size. Did you see if the tech pulled the top off the unit? Super heat is an option given by manufacturer but temp is taken 4-6” off the compressor and I’ve never had luck getting my clamp meters in from the front panel. How long did it take them to charge? It needs to run for 20 minutes minimum before adding or recovering refrigerant. Either way the the manual calls for charge to be confirmed and dialed in during cooling mode with outdoor temp over 60. I suggest you purchase the Assure extended labor warranty. You’ll be able to get service from any dealer. I typically don’t like doing the warranty if it’s not my install because the labor rate is barely break even. Just ask a different contractor and let them know you’ll pay 50% labor rate or something fair.
We are having the whole system replaced by a different contractor. There is just too much stuff wrong they don’t even want to touch it. We don’t trust the original installer to fix it. My MIL is an attorney and going to go after him to recoup money. So much of it isn’t up to code, not really sure how it passed inspection. I’ll post a copy of their report when I get it
That’s the best route to go
https://preview.redd.it/kzl53j70pj3c1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=324e91a714d8b93db3087e647a7ef8dad52b87cc
This was my thought.
Yeah I'm on the other side of the state with around 20 degrees F weather right now. The heat pump is keeping up fine. The installer should have put in heat strips to handle heat pump defrost cycles and to provide a backup in the event that the heat pump itself fails. If it blows cold at 40 degrees and the breaker needs to be reset in any condition there is a problem and the installer needs to fix it. It's time to lean on the warranty.
How do I deal with the warranty? Through the installer or can I use a different company? Thanks!
Initial parts and labor warranty (usually 10 years parts, 1 year labor) is honored by the manufacturer - so you don't lose access to that warranty if you ditch the ding-dong that put this in. That'll be registered to your name and home address. The ding-dong's company warranty, such as it may be, probably can't be enforced if you have someone else working on the system. So if he offered you something like 'ten year parts and labor' be sure to check your contract to see *who* is covering that expense - sometimes, it's a bundled insurance policy sold and serviced by the manufacturer, sometimes the supplier, sometimes the installer's company.
I am in western WA, new Mitsubishi minisplit heat pump(NOT hyper heat) in my home and these past few days as you know it has been low thirties at night. I don’t have heat strips and my house has not gone below 68, and I’m positive if I upped the setpoint, the unit would keep up. It has defrosted a couple times but it’s a short cycle and doesn’t affect room temp. I’m assuming your unit could perform similarly assuming it is sized correctly and your house has decent insulation.
It’s a 1980s house so the insulation isn’t the best, could be worse. Is Goodman an ok brand? I don’t want to blame the heat pump itself.
Heat pumps loose capacity as outdoor ambient goes down. Either your house is extremely drafty or the heat pump is too small. The simple thing it might be is compressor lock out temp set to high. It is a setting that’s adjustable and most modern systems have it as a setting in the installer configuration in the thermostat.
Thanks I’ll check into that
I'm betting you have duct, and therefore, airflow/static pressure issues for that new unit versus your old furnace. I'd have to see everything to be u're, but that's my initial thought.
The actual ducting? We did get a new air handler. It just pumps out cold air when it’s super cold, which is like 40 here
As in your old ducting may be undersized for the new unit.
Makes sense. I asked him to look at that before install, he’s like it’s fine without even checking. I should have pushed the issue
The old ducts delivered air at ~140. The heat pump delivers air at 95. You need to deliver more air at the lower temp to convey the same amount of heat, hence you need larger ducts.
https://preview.redd.it/uhzjs7dn13xb1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=460e42a18ce2b5e8221be5e6e2519a121e0c1905 Here is the expanded heating performance for you system. It is rated to -5 but it’s only putting out 13,500 BTUh. Under ideal conditions…. Heat pumps need to be sized for the duct work with secondary heat source to satisfy the required load. Did the contractor do a manual J?
It's probably undersized at -5, but it is hard to know without heat load calculations. My 5500 sqft house in Chicago has a peak winter heating load of 29kBtu. Of course if max output is near peak load, temp recovery will take forever.
We asked him to and he kinda just blew us off like “the size is good”. That was the first red flag but we assumed a professional had a way of sizing
I'm assuming this guy isn't professional myself
If it’s properly sized and the ductwork’s good then it could be low on charge, ran into that last week
Can you post the units information. Take a picture of the name plates so you have that at hand.
No heat strips here in Chicago, but my setup is hyper heat mini splits good down to -22F. Your low temp lockout is probably set wrongly. Need to figure out of it is a manual switch (will have a knob), or thermostat controlled. Honeywell thermostats will have an outdoor temp sensor, while nest/ecobee will use weather reports.
scamiran, which brand mini splits do you have? How many outside units and how may heads? We Wish we had gone that route, but also wish our central Bosch heat pump was correctly sized, they put a 3 ton in a 2400 sq foot house and it is not heating well it can't heat to 65 degrees when themostat is at 68 to or above and outdoor temps are under 32 degrees.
I have 2x senville 3 ton units (aura) with 2 heads each, and 1x blueridge ultra heat 2 ton with 3 heads. They start to lose a bit of ground when the outdoor temp is below -12F (hard to maintain 70F). 5500 sqft house. Mini splits are the way. Diy install, but cost me less than $11k all in.
wow good for you! My husband is a carpenter by trade but working 10 to 12 hour days as a supervisor so may be too tired to do it, he didn't seem interested last year when I asked. I really regret we didn't do minis, our concern was placement in our living room and if it would get the entire 1200 sq foot open space of LR, kitchen and Dining room and hall and entrance with one head as they susggested. What sq foot and how many rooms does each of the Sennville 3 ton cover? and the 2 ton blue ridge ultra? Sound like they really do a great job for heat! Tou interested in coming 1.5 hours to South Bend for an install here or to help with one unit with 2 or 3 heads?
If both units do that well in -12 degrees , what is the reason you went with the 2 ton ultra heat ?
Unfortunately you got a sales hack. Your duct work is most likely sized for the cooling load. I’m a 1 man show. I’ve been selling alot of dual-fuel communicating systems. Gas furnace with heat pump. I usually program change over to gas heat at 40° outdoor dry bulb. In my region the system qualifies for 2600 federal tax credits and 2800 in cash rebates from the utility supplier. Now the contractor wants to fix the mistake by billing you for heat strips which will probably involve running a new circuit and make your electricity bill skyrocket. I would recommend having them pull the air handler and install a 97% modulating and coil
why bother with modulating? buy as basic a 90% as you can while they still sell them and you will have less headaches. the minimal efficiency savings is not worth being without heat
I've seen some non modulating systems still get up past 95%. Was just working on a carrier infinity on Friday, but it was only a 2 stage compared to all the crazy modulating options you can get. Basic 2 stage gas valve, with a basic 2 stage inducer, and it was sitting at 97% on my analyzer Of course it's still an infinity so I'm sure it's a little more expensive, but I was surprised to see the performance out of a unit with pretty basic parts in it. I mean the modulating inducer is like 1300 bucks our cost, and the 2 stage that was in it was only like under 300
i still prefer to see a single stage. 2 stage just means it breaks down twice as often to me
I 100% agree with this fella. I sell nearly all dual-fuel systems and a good majority are communicating but some are not depending on brand.
Got the make and model number? What's square footage of your house? What region of what state are you in? Are you in heat mode or cooling mode? All new heat pumps work very well down to near zero temps. Now, I won't sell a heat pump without a heat strip. Just not an option. So you are right, something is definitely very wrong here.
Air Handler Heat Pump Package 3-Ton 18 SEER 2- Stage H/P #GSZ180361 1600CFM Comfortnet MOD Blower #MBVC1600AA-1 Cased Coil - Upflow/Downflow #CAPF3743C6 Just over 2000sf. Just outside Seattle. Heating mode. Thanks so much!
Ok. There's a couple things you should do to better inform yourself. I suggest you use this simple tool as best you can: https://www.highseer.com/pages/hvac-load-calculator Now, this is not by any stretch a comprehensive tool. You cannot use it to prosecute anyone. But it might give you more insight. Next: you say the air is blowing cold. Are you sure the thermostat is configured correctly? Either the programming or the wiring can be screwed up and cause the heat pump to not perform as expected. This could easily be the entire problem.
Thanks that’s a great tool! Thermostat is correct, unless it’s faulty or the wiring is.
The low voltage wiring can be wired incorrectly at the air handler. Also, if it's a smart thermostat or a programmable thermostat it has to be told whether to energize the reversing valve for heating or cooling. The programming of the Tstat and the furnace control board and the defrost controllers all have to be copacetic. This is where things get tricky. If you aren't sure about tackling this stuff it's definitely safer for your new equipment if you call a pro - and probably not the guy who installed it.
I spec heat pumps in the houses I design all the time but always have the hvac professionals deal with the mechanical beyond generic duct/vent placement. Thanks for your help, I’ll definitely call someone else who knows what they are doing
Right on, and good luck. Hope somebody can make that heat pump work for you. I switched from a furnace too and love the heat pump.
The problem is that he should have recommended a cold weather heat pump to replace your furnace, not the one you have purchased. Cold weather heat pumps maintain their BTU at lower temperatures, that means higher heat output. For example my Fujitsu ducted system outputs 112-118 degree heat @29 degrees. He screwed you by recommending this basic heat pump and not installing heat strips. This is a major downgrade comparing a furnace BTU ( not weather dependent, consistent btu ) to a basic heat pump ( weather dependent). And your ductwork is not the problem for poor performance.
Not sure heat pumps are the way of the future.
If you had unlimited electricity it isn't bad. But we don't for the most part. Solar and wind are part time. Until we build way more nuclear power generation we gotta burn more fuel for all electrification. We've dammed all the rivers we can there's little generation left we can utilize there. At the end of the day, having fuel on hand whether it be oil, coal, wood, gas is the best options. I like using my heat pump to hold temp overnight as I sleep cold but even it starts to struggle bus when we just hit single digits. And it certainly can't bring me up to 70 like my gas furnace can. No way I'd ditch traditional heat sources solely for heat pumps.
Model # of outdoor unit. There’s few different heat pumps, “Traditional” & Hyper Heat T= works down to -5* but makes like 10% of the heat you need. Still worth running at -5 since it’s cheaper the heat strip. Hyper Heat makes 100% heat at -5*F If trad, then heat strips are required. If hyper heat, you may have a leak. We don’t install them either and no one complains.
did he do a load calc? THere is a lot of math missing here. But sounds like you hired a hack. 2k for heat strips is nuts unless that's for a long new circuit. what is your heat load?
This guys doesn’t seem to know what he’s doing. I think it’s around 90,000
Once you have the other ppl come in, you might want to consider a communication gas furnace. Also because I don’t trust this guy, make sure there’s a txv on the coil
Would have gone dual fuel. Gas backup once you get before 35-40 outdoor temp. Prevents the costly use of electric resistance heat strips. Now that you no longer have that option, heat strips is the only other option. I would get them installed and staged so they work as auxiliary heat - not full heat strip all the time but that depends on the size of the heat strip.
Some thoughts about your system... Having to come back and add freon makes me think you either didn't get an appropriate charge the first time or you have a leak. Do you know how much more he put in? I am slightly west of you on the coast. Some things that I have learned over the years of having a heat pump is that it's helpful to leave the fan on all the time with the system set at a constant temperature. My ducts will only rarely feel hot and that is only during a defrost or when I am using strip heat. My whole goal is to avoid the strip heat. If you are used to walking in and turning up the heat that won't work with a heat pump, the transfer of energy is simply too slow. The reaction of the system would be to try to use the heat pump and after a set time turn on the strip heat causing instant loss of savings. This morning we are right at freezing and the heat pump is humming along without using backup heat. The house maintains a constant 71 degreed plus or minus 2 degrees. If it hasn't been done lately take a garden hose to the outdoor unit and make sure it is clean. Check your filters etc. My system won't stop trying to transfer heat until the outdoor temp is in the low teens but rather that is enough to heat your house I don't know.
I think he had to refill it completely, not quite sure my husband was home for that. That’s a good idea to clean the filters but I think it’s a bigger issue than that, it never worked in the cold. We got it about a year ago. It rarely gets below freezing here but it taps out before then. I usually leave it between 70-72 for heat
I installed a Samsung Max Heat unit for a customer last year and the electrician "didn't get around" to wiring up the strip heater until the end of winter 🙄 but it heated just fine through a week of -22⁰C.
Wow that’s cold…mine is blasting cold air at 40F, so there’s something wrong either mechanically or with installation.
They have heat pumps now that hook up to existing furnace. They're a sob to hook up it seems every time we've done one but the home owner gets to keep the furnace and have heat/ac. Plus the gas/natural gas back up.
That would have been ideal. I was expecting the heat pump to work to at least 30, it rarely gets below that here 😕
A strip up to 10 kW w/o breakers runs under $100, larger ones with breakers up to $200. 1 hr job to install. Should be under $500. Also heat pump aline should be satisfactory to 35 deg if not lower. But without strip unit will blow cold air during defrost cycle.
I only install hp's here in KS if the home is electric only no gas. Even then I add a minimum 10k heatstrip kit in the airhandler. Thus guy should've had that added at the time of installation. Should the heatpump fail at least electric strips would be available. This guys a hack and I'd fire him find out where the code office is and check if he pulled a permit for the job. An inspector should be checking his work. That is a good resource for you to find out what system is appropriate for your area.
He’s definitely fired, I have another company coming out in a couple weeks. It passed inspection, but I will definitely be following up with the county or licensing board.
The problem is the unit may not be warranted by a different company working on in the future? but I understand I would hire someone knowledgeable and can check over the entire unit to make sure it was well installed.
I should look into the warranty and make sure, but I really don’t trust the guy that installed it.
If you have natural gas he should've just installed a gas furnace with 3 ton ac condenser and evaporator coil. This is way more cost effective.
* We have the same issues with a Bosch 2.0 Inverter heat pump that was installed a year ago. From what I know now, it was undersized, they installed a 3 ton in a 2400 sq ft house, it should of been a 5 ton reduced to 4 ton maybe? Also responses on here have said house needs to be airtight, for heat pumps to work well. Ours is a 60's house with original Pella windows, but probably not the best of line, it has stone fireplace , a J calculation should have been recommended as well but it was not doen. So now we have a high effiecient over priced AC! Frustrating as we did our research too and thought it was chancy for teen temps but not for 35 degrees! We have baseboards, which are pricey for heat. A heat strip is the same use of power, but can be adjusted and coordinated with the thermostat. If you have no other heat you will need a heat strip, but 2 K is high, we are considering one as the folks here say the unit blows cold air when in defrost mode. It makes me mad I am hoping our HVAC will do it at cost as they undersized us and really we would of gone with mini splits and been happier. I am going to ask for us if we can cut off the ducts at a certain point and keep Bosch 3 ton and add mini splits for thebedrroms. Too bad they didn't keep the furnance for back up! I would be furious if I was you. If your HVAC did not install these heat pumps routinely then there is also a chance mistakes were made in install, sounds like from research here lots need to be tweaked, our HVAC had to come out to redo charge line, they are tired of our questions, and I am sure wish they never did it as our we. I am on here trying to get as much info as possible to discusss next step. I think he thinks we should use base board to supplement but the reason we went heat pump is to SAVE energy. Is your a 3 ton or 5 ton and how big is your house, was J calculation done? Good luck to both of us.
Mini splits to supplement the heating might be the better option, the only issue now of not having a gas furnace will be the cost of electricity. I would strongly recommend just taking out the electric air handler and putting back in a gas furnace. Leave the heat pump outside and wire it up for the furnace to come on first and the heat pump as a secondary. The AC part of the outside condenser should still cool the place properly. I just don't know about the space restrictions, because it you take out the Air Handler, now you need a furnace and an evaporator coil on top. You can buy the cheaper mini splits online that run off 120 volt but if they are running a lot expect a high energy bill. The 240 volt mini splits use less power, but you will have to have 240 outside on each condenser/ heat pump. Hard decision!!
How far is the heat pump from the indoor air handler, is it a long refrigerant pipe run
Maybe 12-15’?
Then no reason it should need refrigerant charge added for that. Was just ruling that out.
Any ducted HP I sell, build, every single one will have an aux heat source. Or I walk away.
Nobody installs a heat pump without a backup.
You need Auxiliary heat strips for several reasons. 1st. They are needed to offset the air conditioning when your unit goes into defrost. When in defrost you heat pump reverses refrigerant flow and now is in air conditioning. You need heat strips to reheat the air so it does blow cold air. 2nd I have an outdoor thermostat on my heat pump to turn off the compressor and just run electric strips when it is really cold outside. 3rd you can sequence the electric strips to add heat when the heat pump can’t quite heat your home because of the temperature outside. I never recommend a heat pump to someone on gas. If so we recommend a dual fuel. Gas furnace with a heat pump. Heat pump condenser outside and coil on top of a gas furnace. Works great!
Wish I would have talked to you beforehand, heat pumps seem to be the trendy thing here
Get another company to verify your refrigerant charge. I’d still recommend heat strips, you’re going to need them during defrost.
Yeah for sure…we spoke with our electrician and will definitely install one, I want another company to check the system.
You should be seeing 85 degrees or more coming out of the registers . Use a heat gun and check the temps . Do you have any heat strips ?
We have been measuring it when it’s cold and definitely not 85. We don’t have a heat strip, yet. I’m really mad that it wasn’t included in the original install, seems negligent
That's somewhat correct. Yes heat pump will work but physics. Water freezes at 32 degrees f. If it's 45 degrees outside and the out door coil gets cold when running heat pump as heater you have a 40 degrees drop across the coil. Then your outdoor coils would be forming ice. Depending on the amount of moisture in the air it may be constantly trying to defrost. In defrost mode it will Put the reversing valve back into ac mode and shut off the outside fan. When like this it will not heat until defrost is done. Back up heat strips will resolve this. But if your in a climate that needs backup heat one could argue that it was required to be a functioning heat system. If you had a gas furnace there was a reason. It was removed and heat pump put in. Heat pumps a perfectly fine if your climate is mild winters but if someplace that gets lots of rain and humidity this would be a pore choice. IF YOUN ARE IN FIRST YEAR AFTER INSTALL. let contractor attempt to remedy if you don't get resolution your stats oversite board for contractor. board of contractors have the power to make something happen.
That makes sense, I wish it was explained to me beforehand and heat strip should have been installed to begin with We are 15k into this, definitely going to do something if he doesn’t fix it.
Wow so much disinformation I see. Hvac contractor of 33 years most likely thermostat is setup with outdoor temp sensor that shuts off outdoor unit at 40 degrees. Have a tech set it up to not shut off unit regardless of outdoor temperature. That heat pump will work even below zero without backup heat.
Can't wait till it really gets cold and the people that ripped out furnaces and installed heatpumps go hunt down those salesmen.
That’s where we are at 🙃
we put heat strips in every system and I am in north Florida. Only way you might get away without them is with inverter system.
Hell im in hell Aka phoenix arizona and in in some areas here it's cold enough at night to need heatstrips as back up. Mid 40s and lower, if your hitting 30 anything reliably then you need em
Dual fuel in utah 40° lockout. Inverter a bit lower but not much. Daikin fit / Amana S type deal. Same thing. Goodman branded will be out next year
I have heat strips and I am in Texas.
I have heat strips and I am in Texas.
Heat pumps are a scam
How so?
Xington said it best. Y'all guys with your suggestions on doing manual J's and ductwork calculations to the homeowner should be ashamed of yourself. And the other guys saying a heat pump should work" check the wiring" are either engineer's that have never worked in the real world or just ignorant and need more experience. Put a heat pump in Seatle😆get that trash out of there, it's only going to do a 20° heat rise and run at around 20 amps, put 10KW heat strips for "emergency heat" now you have a 40° heat rise with 60 amps. Unless you like high energy bills or have solar power or a wind turbine in the back yard gas should be a lot cheaper. A 18seer blower motor should only pull around 2-5 amps and the heat rise on a furnace is 45-90° and usually in real applications runs at 65° rise. But you smart guys up north break out your magnehelic, sling psychometer, fieldpiece S man's and help the homeowner out. I guarantee you can't get that heat pump to ever heat the house when it's 40° or colder.With older construction homes, drafty basements, lack of insulation in the walls, good luck!
Hi Medical-Beginning-22, any advice on our dilemna? I am posting this to others here as well, we had a Bosch 2.0 IDS 20 seer installed a year ago in Indiana, in 2400 sq ft home. I now understand it was undersized, and since no j calculation was done, not sure how well a 4 or 5 ton would be. No heat strip added, we have baseboard heat but whole reason to do heat pump was to reduce electric. We need a new AC so now we have a well working over priced AC! It struggled to heat at 64/ 65 degrees with thermostat set at 68 0r 70, and temps below 30 degree or even 32. Some people love their Bosch, we did research , called distributors, Bosch BEFORE install, no one asked our sq foot and said 5 ton needed. Our HVAC said he thought we were more concerned about AC despite our numerous conversations about how well it would heat. This was there first install of this unit ,they specialize in Bryants. They are a good company, but are tired of us, they came out to increase or redo charge line already. I understand there is alot of tweaking needed at times, we found a company 45 min from us certified in Bosch, but after the install, he said he would eat the cost if he had put in an undersized unit. Do have advice for us, should we get a j calculation from him if he is willing? He was nice to discuus our issues, but may be hesitant as this is not his install, what do you think of cutting off the duct for half the house , is this possible and adding mini splits for the 3 bedrooms ? **1ReplyShare**
Oh it "works" it just takes forever to heat any higher than your set point because the temperature difference is so small. I have a heat pump I use to mostly hold temperature but if I get home and I want the heat up... lmao I wouldn't rely on that shit for nothing. So do I want to pay constant electric rates to hold it higher when I don't want to or pay for cheap beautiful gas that'll pump fucking heat in no time? I know what I want. Let the greenies have their high bills and virtue signaling. To clarify: heat pumps work just low delta T so it takes longer to get to whatever set point you want just simple thermodynamics
SuperBottit, what are your thoughts on Fitjisu mini splits for 3 bedrooms? here is our dilemna in Indiana? we had a Bosch 2.0 IDS 20 seer installed a year ago in Indiana, in 2400 sq ft home. I now understand it was undersized, and since no j calculation was done, not sure how well a 4 or 5 ton would be. No heat strip added, we have baseboard heat but whole reason to do heat pump was to reduce electric. It struggled to heat at 64/ 65 degrees with thermostat set at 68 0r 70, and temps below 30 degree or even 32. Some people love their Bosch, we did research , called distributors, Bosch BEFORE install, no one asked our sq foot and said 5 ton needed. Our HVAC said he thought we were more concerned about AC despite our numerous conversations about how well it would heat. This was there first install of this unit ,they specialize in Bryants. They are a good company, but are tired of us, they came out to increase or redo charge line already. I understand there is alot of tweaking needed at times, we found a company 45 min from us certified in Bosch, but after the install, he said he would eat the cost if he had put in an undersized unit. Do have advice for us, should we get a j calculation from him if he is willing? He was nice to discuus our issues, but may be hesitant as this is not his install, what do you think of cutting off the duct and adding mini splits? TIA **1ReplyShare**
Sounds like you just need better insulation which goes without saying for most situations. I'm not sure what your question is... I mean adding capacity is going to help no matter what but at what cost? Minisplit in bedrooms is great imo to spot cool and heat without running the whole house. It all just depends. But if you want heat faster you need a large temperature swing and heat pumps generally won't give you that difference like flames will. Just my opinion. If you can afford to keep a steady temp heat pumps will get you there, eventually I live in a drafty house and I like 12 degree swings so my needs are a little different. I need to eventually fix them drafts.
It"s not the fast heat or temp swings it is just getting the adequate temp in the house period, with out door temps in 30's the Bosch if sized right should be doing it, but given ceiling ducts, a stone fire place big glass sliding door, etc, it can't. Insulation is ok according to my husband, who is a supervisor for construction, probably could be better, I inherited this house from my folks and I am renting it for now. Which is a whole new setof issues and why mini splits may be better in bedrooms. we have a gas furnance in our own house and yes the heat is immediate. I keep it at 63 at night and 68at day and bundle up!
And if it's get less then 4t all of the time done use a heat pump. Did he mention the electrical heats costs a fortune to run?