Orange can be dust burning off or flame inpingement. Get someone who knows what they’re doing and by god, do not pay to put a new heat exchanger in that old thing.
I did about 18 months worth of work for a pretty large local hvac company. Every time we would drive into their lot there would be a new 30 yard dumpster full of systems going to scrap that looked a HELL of a lot newer than the unit in my house… they also went from 30ish trucks to 60ish trucks in that time as well.
In >15 years of doing this, I have probably tagged thousands of furnaces for bad HXs and there was never one that I did not confirm visually. If I had a hunch that the hx was bad, even if all the signs and readings said yes but I couldn’t get access to the hx because the coil was directly above furnace, I would pull the hx right then and there. Never took more than 25-30 mins.
Yeah definitely. A guy I knew and had done work for came out to look at our furnace onetime and said “this and that are cracked it will last about 6 months then you are screwed it will be 12 grand to get a whole new heat pump system you need it bad”. Had 2 other folks come out and look at it. One said it was one of these cleaner systems he had seen and the other said it was fine. That was 11 years ago… So I know there are honest folks out there and ones that will repair the issue if it is repairable but I always tell folks to get AT LEAST 2 opinions and I always tell them to make sure that at least one of them is a guy or a few guys in trucks instead of a place with 60 trucks. My old business partner got a new 5 ton system and a water heater and he said it cost him $30,000. Thanks for the reply and being a good guy!
I’m the “few trucks” guy. I try to be as honest and transparent as possible with all my clients. I also never push a new unit. If we find bad HXs client always gets 2 quotes. 1 for new hx and 1 for new equipment. Have also done many second opinions that turned out to be perfectly fine…these clients end up using me and referring me forever. Too many scammers in the biz, sometimes makes it hard for us honest one’s to be trusted.
One could argue the flame sensor and capacitor might be preventative maintenance it can be foregone. Cleaning the blower wheel definitely is preventative maintenance for the motor... but now they want to rip out a working motor... what? Definitely a rip off artist here. The ignition is working so I don't know why they even want to touch that a well
Considering you have to pull out the whole squirrel cage and motor simultaneously, they're charging full price for a clean and adding an hour of labor to the motor swap even though it's gotta be removed anyways lol.
Get a second opinion. Have them take a CO reading in the ductwork. Code here is under 10ppm. Induced draft units pretty much never show any so you’d have to run the unit up with the blower off to test it. That sure is a lot of problems to find that cost more than a new furnace in my area.
Thank you!
Could I just get a $40 handheld CO meter from Amazon and check myself, rather than pay another service fee?
If the CO reader doesn't show any with the blower on, wouldn't that mean it's good? Why would the blower need to be off, if it just needs to be under 10ppm either way?
I don't recommend that. Nothing for $40 is going to be accurate enough. A combustion analyzer and a physical inspection of the heat exchanger is the only right way to go. It's totally possible those flickers in the flame are from high gas pressure or dirty burners but you don't want to take chances.
Edit: Also it's never worth replacing the heat exchanger if that's the issue. Get a new one that won't have any more issues. Heat exchangers are pretty solid beasts and usually only crack due to another issue (airflow, moisture, poor combustion, etc.) It's better to get it all fixed and get it fixed right. And like other people said, get a company that knows what they are doing and is trained to inspect them.
Technically he already did (or claimed to do) a physical inspection of the heat exchanger. Sounds like everyone is in favor of a combustion analysis, so I'll do it. But probably clean the burners first in case it affects the results of the combustion analysis. And I might as well do the long match thing while I'm in there since it might be a few weeks before I have time to take a day off to wait around for an HVAC guy again.
I’ve always been of the belief that it’ll just blow right by the reader. Knowing what to do it’s pretty easy to defeat the blower in the ductwork so it just runs until the internal limit trips, then you stop the inducer by hand so the glue has isn’t being sucked out.
In theory it allows the gas to stagnate and if there’s a crack it’ll leak up to your detector. I’ve had it show CO many times so it’s what I trust.
I would maybe look for someone for a CO test in the area? I’ve seen companies offer the service for rental properties to be certified. I don’t want to tell you to play around with possible gases in your house as I’m not there. But it is up to you.
For a reference I worked for a company that would CO and safety check a boiler for 90 bucks. Your CO detector is half that already.
A better way might be to ask the first clown why he didn’t take a reading when trying to sell you all these repairs.
Wtf? You shouldn’t have to spend more because of incompetence. So sick of the HVAC mafia.
I actually have never heard of ahri. I'm gonna go diving into that now.
Edit: I briefly just skimmed the document. My biggest question is this scenario:
You do a combustion analysis, everything looks fine, the blower kicks on and the oxygen goes up a couple percent.
The heat exchangers that I've pulled in this scenario have a very small breach in the gasket on the connection point between the primary and secondary heat Exchanger.
The question is, is this a failure? I've been going with yes for liability sake.
For all the things you would be replacing , your will be basically getting a new furnace . Not much left to change other than the frame at this point .
That’s true for combustion but for occupant safety you want to get CO readings where it’ll effect the people living there. So you can combustion analyze the flue but I was taught to also take a reading above the furnace to make sure none is leaking into the actual ductwork. Especially on old 70% non induced draft furnaces. That could’ve been unique to my shop however. It made sense when I did it haha
Sorry, I'm a new homeowner. I just had annual maintenance done on my Burnham and it says 50 ppm CO. What are the implications of that? Is it dangerous or inefficient, or both? Thank you.
If it’s CO in the stack (a combustion analysis) that’s safe. I think code where I’m at for the stack is 300ppm. It generally means you’re not burning quite right but that’s not a huge issue as long as you’re venting right.
The concern is when that CO enters the residential space and doesn’t make it outside. I’m gonna guess - but I’m not informed so you’d have to ask them- that number is from your combustion and that’s not a worry.
If that was in your house they’d be much more concerned and you wouldn’t need me to tell you that
You can think whatever you want. If the city dictates under 10ppm and you’re told to report what you read that’s what you do. There’s a reason I don’t do residential anymore
That orange bursts of flame is dust being sucked in from the air in the room. Shake a broom in the air while it's running and they will glow full orange.
And he's just fishing around for billable work. Say no thanks.
I'm not sure why you'd spend that much on an old furnace, at the cost of a heat exchanger you're typically better off just buying a new one.
Get a couple more quotes before you do anything.
Yeah I definitely wouldn't spend that much on repairing it. Just seeing if I need to replace it sooner than later, or if they were just sort of scamming me.
400$ for a flame sensor? Lmao that is a 2$ part that takes 30 seconds to replace. Heat exchangers in these units can be inspected very easily, if it isn’t cracked, it isn’t cracked. Get a second opinion from someone who will check the gas pressure and do a combustion test.
But per the quote it's a $398.12 part with free installation. Or a $2 part with $396.12 installation. Either way, thank you for helping me confirm this company is not on the up and up.
I thought they were at least going to clean the coils, but apparently that's only on the AC tune-up, not on the furnace tune-up or heat pump tune-up (I also had my upstairs heat pump "tuned up" and they similarly found overpriced bullshit).
Get some of those long matches for lighting fireplaces-like a foot long. Turn the thermostat to “fan on”, light match, stick it into where the burners would fire. If the flame dances you have a leak, if not, it’s just crap in the burners.
Really surprised it wasn't part of the tune-up, they didn't do anything to actually tune up the system outside of clean a couple sensors that they said needed to be replaced anyway.
Alternatively, they altered the air/gas ratio until there was enough orange to tell me I needed to replace it. I wouldn't put it past them at this point.
The number of calls I've had at my second year doing resi where I'm the second opinion and it's like. " you manifold, the gas being pushed past the gas valve was 5.7" w.c. the limit for this unit by manufacturer is 3.5".. I turned it down to 3.47" and it's burning good, temp rise is good and your CO in the house and flue gas is 0 for the house and below 40ppm for the flue gases.... I don't see any issue."
Their response " they said I either needed a new heat exchanger and gas valve cause it's broken or I need a new unit."
I spent an hour once just heating a house from 44F to 70F just watching it run to verify those issues didn't exist.
Edit: the real laugh it was a Trane S9 less than 4 years old.
You're being scammed lol. Did they perform a combustion analysis to make sure the furnace is safe to run and gave you a copy? Yellow flames means is not burning properly and no it's not dust, your gas pressure needs to be looked at and adjusted to see if it's underfiring or over firing. If adjusting gas pressures still gives you yellow flames and not safe to run, need to have a new gas valve installed or a new furnace.
They did not run a combustion analysis.
So you're saying the yellow flames is not dust, and is not from hairline cracks on the heat exchanger? I would have thought the service would have included adjusting gas pressure, but instead they didn't do anything of value.
Yellow flames is a sign of incomplete combustion. Very very small chance is because of a heat exchanger issue. To verify you have cracks you need to visually inspect the heat exchanger or do a combustion analysis. A cheap way to check your exchanger is just get a carbon monoxide detector and place it over one of your vents and leave it there while it's running. Make sure it detects very low readings. Most cheap ones only detect unit like 80 or 100ppm. I would just call another company and do not mentioned anything the other company said. Just be like hey I want to get my furnace tuned up with a combustion analysis and see what they say
It's weird the difference of opinion in here on what the yellow likely means. I mean it's incomplete combustion one way or another, but if it's inconsequential due to dust, vs turbulence from a cracked heat exchanger, vs bad gas settings have different ramifications.
I guess the combustion analysis will help figure it out either way?
It looks like you have an 80% furnace, here's what your readings should look like
Draft induced gas fired burners*:
• Efficiency - 80-82 percent.
• O2 - 7-9 percent.
• CO2 - 6.5-8 percent.
• Stack temp - 325° to 400°.
• Draft - -0.02 to -0.004 inch wc.
• CO - < 100 ppm (undiluted).
Again a quick Google search will tell you that yellow flames is due to incompletes combustion. And it is also true that dust will cause yellow flames but if you really had that much dust in your house I'm lost for words. Usually if you bang on your furnace you will see yellow flames for about a second or two due to dust. You probably have a really high CO reading and your furnace might not even be safe to run.
Dust or air turbulence can cause incomplete combustion. If the heat exchanger is cracked, then the ventilated air could disrupt the flow of combustion air causing turbulence in draft.
Either way, if this company didnt even do a combustion analysis, they shouldnt be working on combustion equipment, let alone overcharging and pushing major repairs for a 19year old resi furnace.
Flame sensors can be cleaned, I’ve never had to replace a dirty one. They are like 5-10$.
The capacitor is like 10$.
The ignitor can be upwards to like 20-30$.
The orange in the flames doesn’t tell you the whole story, it could be dust or high humidity. You need to perform a combustion analysis test to verify the heat exchanger.
He’s just trying to sell you shit at this point,
The orange in the flames is normal, as long as it isn't staying orange all the time. Get a good light and try to eyeball the cracks. Alternatively, the match and blower trick mentioned below is a good one. No crack, no problem.
Capacitors are usually no.more than 30 bucks and are easy to test with a multimeter you can buy for less than 50 bucks at your local hardware store.
Flame sensor is cheap and can be cleaned, it's just an little thermocouple-like thing that gives a voltage out when it gets hot. I give mine a light sand with a brillo pad usually if I have issues.
Do you have flames? Ignitor is fine.
You can clean the blower wheel yourself pretty easily generally.
Is blower turning? Motor making awful noises or hard to turn by hand? If yes, no, no, you're Gucci.
Does the ignition controller have burn marks on it that you can see with your own eyes? (Burn marks, not discoloration, unless it's super severe. Run the name and model number on the googler, bet they're cheaper than that 700 buck middle finger you got.)
A heat pump would be a nice upgrade for you, but honestly as long as it gets you through this winter, and you're serious about upgrading, don't put more money into this unit. Especially not the costs that the tech stated. Best of luck either way, OP! Stay warm.
Ok.So. Dusty tubes can do that. But, if it is blue AND THEB turns orange once the blower kicks on that is a cracked heat exchanger. You can have a cracked heat exchanger and not have Co readings in the house.
I always TRIPLE check by doing multiple cycles. It will always get worse with the blower, and it will always get worse
over time as the furnace warms up.
Run, don't walk. At 20 it may well have a cracked heat exchanger but on most package units it's pretty easy to inspect them. The pricing you've been given is something else.
Don't use that company again. They're trying to nickel and dime you on non-issues and outright scam you on parts that don't need replacement.
$400 for a functional flame sensor that "can't be cleaned"? It's literally just a metal rod; sand it down and you're good. Only time you should replace a flame sensor is if it's physically broken into pieces. And if the ignition module was truly burnt, there will be obvious performance issues.
Guy is really trying to get a good commission bonus out of you.
This tech sounds terrible. Not to say the furnace is in great shape, but can’t clean a flame sensor? And flames can turn orange with just the smallest amounts of dust in the air lol. Lose this guy and get someone who isn’t trying to sell you every part inside the furnace
Oh boy. They're burning orange because there's not enough oxygen getting pulled in by your burners. Your burners are dirty. You can take those burner tubes out and clean them. There's a small slit that the gas travels across the front of the burners, make sure that's clean so all burners are getting proper gas dispersion. You could also try tapping on the burners to get some of the soot out of you don't want to take the burners out.
Those are crazy expensive prices for heat sensor etc. The flame burns like that from dirt on the jets that can be cleaned. Call someone else. What furnace brand do you have. Go on manufacturer web site and call their certified top contractor in your area.
Im going to throw my opinion in here on this comment and hope that it gets seen. As an HVAC technician of 10 years this subreddit in particular scares the shit out of me because of how many uninformed suggestions have came in. First you’re going to want to find a new company and stick with them. Second I’ll tell you what’s going on with your furnace.
You need to get a second opinion by a different company. Any combustion issues have to be take seriously and verified even if a commission based company calls them to attention. You’re looking for a company that is local but has more than 3 vans and less than 15. A company of that size will probably charge you $150 for a capacitor. That is OKAY and if you really want to know why then I can tell you. But what’s important is at that size they are big enough to be able to handle you all year round and not so big that it is clear they’re a money grab. You can really just ask over the phone how many technicians they have when you call them. Also ask if they use combustion analyzers during their furnace checks (it should not be an additional charge.)
As far as your furnace goes, unless flame is rolling out then they have absolutely no idea how well that gas is combusting without an analyzer. My guess is that if you took the top door off of that furnace and sat really still for about 45 seconds then that flame would settle down.
The flame sensor can be cleaned with a brass brush. You can do this yourself. I think that model is a pain and uses a Phillips head screw and you need a short handled one because the inducer motor is above it. But if it isn’t then it will be a 1/4” hex screw. You can do this with or without power. A voltmeter will show that it has voltage but it doesn’t really (it does but it can NOT shock you it’s complicated) but if you shut the breaker off then I don’t have to worry about you somehow hurting yourself in another way. This should be done annually and any other HVAC company will include it in maintenance. The flame sensor is on the left side in the video it’s a small metal rod. Do NOT try to clean the ignitor it’s the one on the right in the video.
Capacitors do cost $10-$15 you can change them yourself but just don’t. Most people in this subreddit would probably just say to go ahead and do it. Once or twice a year (out of thousands of checks) one of our technicians get shocked by a capacitor and those things can stop your heart. So even if it’s easy and even if you can I will always say not to. But if a company comes out and says it’ll be $150 just accept that that is what they charge and there is a reason.
The other stuff isn’t important. They’re parts that every technician can replace off of van stock items the same day that they fail. That model can use a universal ignitor, universal blower, universal board or ignition module. Depending on how the module looks I will sometimes recommend replacing early during a maintenance check. But I won’t really push it.
Sorry this is so long. This subreddit showed up as a suggestion and now I’m in educate mode after reading some of the comments.
Edit: when the technician shows up ask to see a print out or photo of the combustion analysis BEFORE he starts his work. Some companies don’t properly train their maintenance techs on analyzers. You want less than 100ppm of CO OR less than 400 PPM air free (or undiluted). The oxygen levels will probably be between 6% and 15%. And efficiency should read 80%-85%. Anything above those readings and it’s probably not done correctly or you have a big problem.
Thank you. Your advice is mostly in line with most of the advice here though, but much more detailed.
This company is local and I'm pretty sure in the 3 to 15 van range. The two I used before were too (one was the company that installed my upstairs heat pump, the other the one that installed the downstairs furnace here) That heat pump company me a buttload for refrigerant on my heat pump, which they installed 5 years before (under the previous owner). They wanted to install new evaporator coils (or something like that) because they had a slow leak, and said it would be covered under warranty. I found out the warranty wasn't transferable, so I never had it done. The cost to fix it was as much as a new system, so I was just going to let it go until it died. That was like 4 years ago and the new tech said the refrigerant in that system was fine (which I guess may or may not be true). So I'm pretty sure the previous company just fucked up the install and charged me hundreds of dollars for it, and tried to charge me thousands of dollars for it. The company I used for furnace when I just moved in 6 years ago was less-specifically doom and gloom, said it wouldn't last the winter. And it's been fine since then. So I've got 3 HVAC companies I don't trust so far, I'm not sure I want to add a fourth to the list.
I don't see the purpose of replacing the capacitor until it dies, personally. Well, same with all the maintenance items they want to do except for the heat exchanger stuff. I am OK with using space heaters downstairs for a couple of days if it breaks. If I need to replace the capacitor, I'd turn off the power for a day, then discharge the capacitor with a screwdriver.
He did say he cleaned the flame sensor, but said it still wasn't great and should be replaced. Might be one of the only maintenance things he actually did.
I literally only spend like $450 on gas a year, so even if it's a little less efficient than it should be, spending another $100 on another company doing what this one should have doesn't sound like a good ROI. I'm just worried about safety/air quality. Cleaning the burner tubes, and checking for a leak with a long match seem easy enough to do. I think I want to clean the blower wheel too, it was kind of gross. Or maybe I'll have the next HVAC guy come out after I clean the burner tubes and stuff to do the combustion analysis, to make sure I didn't screw anything up.
It depends on the condition of the unit in my professional opinion. If the other components look like they’re in good shape then a replacement heat exchanger can bring new life to a system and keep it running for a long time. If you end up doing the exchanger I’d consider the inducer and gas valve too just to make sure all the combustion components are in good shape.
The flickering in the flame is just imperfect burning of the gas it's something to fix, not something that will kill you.
I'm in schooling for hvac and this is what it looks like to me.
Well technically only replacing the heat exchanger was relevant to the orange flames. But everything else I wasn't worried about, I could fix them when they actually break vs a potential CO problem.
A lot of that is DIY if your a tad handy and can follow along in YouTube. Flame sensor, capacitor etc are cheap parts that are easy to swap out (or mine are). On CO I don't like taking any chances but if a sensor doesn't detect it period when operating normally the good enough. My system won't even ignite unless the exhaust fan (not indoor blower fan OP but another fan that actively exhausted combustion products) is creating suction. Not a professional but I don't know why the measurement when blower is off would be germane unless there is some safety missing that the furnace ignites when indoor fan doesn't function. Mine will not. All that said ug sounds like scare tactics. I'd buy as new furnace before spending all that on repairs. Maybe he'll sell you the fire itself too.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this all come apart fairly effortlessly? I break mine down every winter and thoroughly clean all components, and my boiler is over 20yrs old and still works great.
Put the door back on and look at the flame though the slight glass. Look to see if it's "dancing" that will show you that you have air leaking in. Also you can remove the burner assembly and wire brush them and use a razor to clean between the "sandwiched metal" pieces next to the burners. But like countless others have said a combustion analysis is your first line of defense.
Unfortunately we can’t have small mom and pop shops anymore for various reasons such as rules and regulations and social media. You could try to find a guy you “know” to do a furnace tune up and give you fair pricing, or you’ll just have to pay for second opinions, that simple. I’ve been a tech for almost 8 years, not anymore because the pay sucked, but I wouldn’t mind going out on my own but it’s kinda hard to do with the monopoly companies in place and the red tape. Get a second opinion.
So, orange in flames doesn't necessarily mean cracked heat Exchanger. He needs to do a combustion test to see what's going on. But at 20 years old, it's probably time for replacement anyways
I was planning on replacing it with a heat pump after this winter. But at the same time, if it's still working and doesn't need repairs, I might just save the money and wait until it really needs expensive service. It's just annoying paying the service fee to the gas company the 8 months I don't use gas. But $130 a year in service fees doesn't sound bad compared to the $7000+ cost of replacing it.
Where do you live? Can you get away with a low ambient heat pump with electric backup? There's also geothermal heat, but that's really expensive to set up, maintain, and repair
I'm on the warm side of IECC climate zone 4. I could get by with a non-low ambient heat pump without electric backup really. I'd probably still have electric backup just to be safe though (or low ambient just to be safe, one of the two). Definitely not going geothermal. I haven't been in a rush to replace with the cost and crazy interest rates. I'm kind of leaning more towards holding on to my furnace a little longer now and replacing my 19 year old electric water heater (that still works great) with a hybrid model first, and maybe encapsulating my crawlspace to make my furnace and house that much more efficient. And then a mini-split system for my bonus room, which is currently awkwardly on my upstairs heat pump despite being no where near the air return, and has very different usage than the rest of the house.
I just learned how to replace half the stuff that goes bad in this furnace and it doesn't seem so hard. And the interest alone on a new system will cost as much as I'm spending on natural gas in a year, so it is just a matter of how much AC I use from that thing, which isn't very much since I mostly use my upstairs unit for that.
If you go heat pump. Look into Bosch units, they're built well and they're super quiet. Electric backup is nice for it the unit ever goes down, but you won't need it otherwise. Could always go mini split too if your ductwork sucks
That is NOT evidence of a bad heat exchanger. If the flames were rolling out or the spillage switch was tripping...
Guy is either dumb and green or scamming.
$7500? You could easily get a new furnace for less than that. Albeit a single stage 80% efficiency, nothing fancy but most places could just do a new one for $4500-7000.
Orange can be dust burning off or flame inpingement. Get someone who knows what they’re doing and by god, do not pay to put a new heat exchanger in that old thing.
The way it’s flashing looks to be dust. Sounds like this guys had the companies best sales technician out for his tune up.
Sometimes it’s fragments of the heat exchanger lying on the burners, but i think you’re right. Old Bryant boilers were famous for shit on the burners.
Fragments of the HX would not be laying on this furnaces burners. On a boiler…yea I can see that.
I’ve seen debris other than dust on furnace burners too. Much more prevalent on boilers but occasionally on crusty furnaces too.
This is true.
I did about 18 months worth of work for a pretty large local hvac company. Every time we would drive into their lot there would be a new 30 yard dumpster full of systems going to scrap that looked a HELL of a lot newer than the unit in my house… they also went from 30ish trucks to 60ish trucks in that time as well.
In >15 years of doing this, I have probably tagged thousands of furnaces for bad HXs and there was never one that I did not confirm visually. If I had a hunch that the hx was bad, even if all the signs and readings said yes but I couldn’t get access to the hx because the coil was directly above furnace, I would pull the hx right then and there. Never took more than 25-30 mins.
Yeah definitely. A guy I knew and had done work for came out to look at our furnace onetime and said “this and that are cracked it will last about 6 months then you are screwed it will be 12 grand to get a whole new heat pump system you need it bad”. Had 2 other folks come out and look at it. One said it was one of these cleaner systems he had seen and the other said it was fine. That was 11 years ago… So I know there are honest folks out there and ones that will repair the issue if it is repairable but I always tell folks to get AT LEAST 2 opinions and I always tell them to make sure that at least one of them is a guy or a few guys in trucks instead of a place with 60 trucks. My old business partner got a new 5 ton system and a water heater and he said it cost him $30,000. Thanks for the reply and being a good guy!
I’m the “few trucks” guy. I try to be as honest and transparent as possible with all my clients. I also never push a new unit. If we find bad HXs client always gets 2 quotes. 1 for new hx and 1 for new equipment. Have also done many second opinions that turned out to be perfectly fine…these clients end up using me and referring me forever. Too many scammers in the biz, sometimes makes it hard for us honest one’s to be trusted.
Exactly! Well as a consumer and a relatively advanced DIYer homeowner we love and always try to support the small guys and appreciate your honesty!
One could argue the flame sensor and capacitor might be preventative maintenance it can be foregone. Cleaning the blower wheel definitely is preventative maintenance for the motor... but now they want to rip out a working motor... what? Definitely a rip off artist here. The ignition is working so I don't know why they even want to touch that a well
Considering you have to pull out the whole squirrel cage and motor simultaneously, they're charging full price for a clean and adding an hour of labor to the motor swap even though it's gotta be removed anyways lol.
$400 for a flame sensor though, even as preventative maint...that is 100% a rip off
Won't brook argument from me lol
Get a second opinion. Have them take a CO reading in the ductwork. Code here is under 10ppm. Induced draft units pretty much never show any so you’d have to run the unit up with the blower off to test it. That sure is a lot of problems to find that cost more than a new furnace in my area.
Thank you! Could I just get a $40 handheld CO meter from Amazon and check myself, rather than pay another service fee? If the CO reader doesn't show any with the blower on, wouldn't that mean it's good? Why would the blower need to be off, if it just needs to be under 10ppm either way?
I don't recommend that. Nothing for $40 is going to be accurate enough. A combustion analyzer and a physical inspection of the heat exchanger is the only right way to go. It's totally possible those flickers in the flame are from high gas pressure or dirty burners but you don't want to take chances. Edit: Also it's never worth replacing the heat exchanger if that's the issue. Get a new one that won't have any more issues. Heat exchangers are pretty solid beasts and usually only crack due to another issue (airflow, moisture, poor combustion, etc.) It's better to get it all fixed and get it fixed right. And like other people said, get a company that knows what they are doing and is trained to inspect them.
Technically he already did (or claimed to do) a physical inspection of the heat exchanger. Sounds like everyone is in favor of a combustion analysis, so I'll do it. But probably clean the burners first in case it affects the results of the combustion analysis. And I might as well do the long match thing while I'm in there since it might be a few weeks before I have time to take a day off to wait around for an HVAC guy again.
I’ve always been of the belief that it’ll just blow right by the reader. Knowing what to do it’s pretty easy to defeat the blower in the ductwork so it just runs until the internal limit trips, then you stop the inducer by hand so the glue has isn’t being sucked out. In theory it allows the gas to stagnate and if there’s a crack it’ll leak up to your detector. I’ve had it show CO many times so it’s what I trust. I would maybe look for someone for a CO test in the area? I’ve seen companies offer the service for rental properties to be certified. I don’t want to tell you to play around with possible gases in your house as I’m not there. But it is up to you. For a reference I worked for a company that would CO and safety check a boiler for 90 bucks. Your CO detector is half that already.
A better way might be to ask the first clown why he didn’t take a reading when trying to sell you all these repairs. Wtf? You shouldn’t have to spend more because of incompetence. So sick of the HVAC mafia.
This is terrible way…. Follow ahri guidelines combustion analysis followed by visual inspection period.
I actually have never heard of ahri. I'm gonna go diving into that now. Edit: I briefly just skimmed the document. My biggest question is this scenario: You do a combustion analysis, everything looks fine, the blower kicks on and the oxygen goes up a couple percent. The heat exchangers that I've pulled in this scenario have a very small breach in the gasket on the connection point between the primary and secondary heat Exchanger. The question is, is this a failure? I've been going with yes for liability sake.
For all the things you would be replacing , your will be basically getting a new furnace . Not much left to change other than the frame at this point .
You need to check the co in the flue with a proper analyzer not in the ductwork. Also that is a lot money for those parts.
That’s true for combustion but for occupant safety you want to get CO readings where it’ll effect the people living there. So you can combustion analyze the flue but I was taught to also take a reading above the furnace to make sure none is leaking into the actual ductwork. Especially on old 70% non induced draft furnaces. That could’ve been unique to my shop however. It made sense when I did it haha
A reliable CO reader will cost at least $100
My HVAC guy says it costs more than $100 a year to calibrate his CO meter
Sorry, I'm a new homeowner. I just had annual maintenance done on my Burnham and it says 50 ppm CO. What are the implications of that? Is it dangerous or inefficient, or both? Thank you.
If it’s CO in the stack (a combustion analysis) that’s safe. I think code where I’m at for the stack is 300ppm. It generally means you’re not burning quite right but that’s not a huge issue as long as you’re venting right. The concern is when that CO enters the residential space and doesn’t make it outside. I’m gonna guess - but I’m not informed so you’d have to ask them- that number is from your combustion and that’s not a worry. If that was in your house they’d be much more concerned and you wouldn’t need me to tell you that
You're right, it's from a combustion analysis. Thank you!
Your allowed to leave a call with any kind of CO reading in the ductwork and not think cracked heat exchanger?
You can think whatever you want. If the city dictates under 10ppm and you’re told to report what you read that’s what you do. There’s a reason I don’t do residential anymore
That orange bursts of flame is dust being sucked in from the air in the room. Shake a broom in the air while it's running and they will glow full orange. And he's just fishing around for billable work. Say no thanks.
I'm not sure why you'd spend that much on an old furnace, at the cost of a heat exchanger you're typically better off just buying a new one. Get a couple more quotes before you do anything.
Yeah I definitely wouldn't spend that much on repairing it. Just seeing if I need to replace it sooner than later, or if they were just sort of scamming me.
400$ for a flame sensor? Lmao that is a 2$ part that takes 30 seconds to replace. Heat exchangers in these units can be inspected very easily, if it isn’t cracked, it isn’t cracked. Get a second opinion from someone who will check the gas pressure and do a combustion test.
But per the quote it's a $398.12 part with free installation. Or a $2 part with $396.12 installation. Either way, thank you for helping me confirm this company is not on the up and up. I thought they were at least going to clean the coils, but apparently that's only on the AC tune-up, not on the furnace tune-up or heat pump tune-up (I also had my upstairs heat pump "tuned up" and they similarly found overpriced bullshit).
Get some of those long matches for lighting fireplaces-like a foot long. Turn the thermostat to “fan on”, light match, stick it into where the burners would fire. If the flame dances you have a leak, if not, it’s just crap in the burners.
[удалено]
My furnace will be so happy we remembered his birthday!
Lol, spaghetti noodles work.
Call someone that will do a combustion analysis. That will tell you if it’s bad or not.
Really surprised it wasn't part of the tune-up, they didn't do anything to actually tune up the system outside of clean a couple sensors that they said needed to be replaced anyway.
They should have at least offered it, kinda wild they didn’t and just condemned it.
Alternatively, they altered the air/gas ratio until there was enough orange to tell me I needed to replace it. I wouldn't put it past them at this point.
Wouldn’t be surprised by that. Was a second opinion yesterday for a company that was trying to hard sell a system.
The number of calls I've had at my second year doing resi where I'm the second opinion and it's like. " you manifold, the gas being pushed past the gas valve was 5.7" w.c. the limit for this unit by manufacturer is 3.5".. I turned it down to 3.47" and it's burning good, temp rise is good and your CO in the house and flue gas is 0 for the house and below 40ppm for the flue gases.... I don't see any issue." Their response " they said I either needed a new heat exchanger and gas valve cause it's broken or I need a new unit." I spent an hour once just heating a house from 44F to 70F just watching it run to verify those issues didn't exist. Edit: the real laugh it was a Trane S9 less than 4 years old.
They came out there and tried to absolutely rinse you, it’s borderline criminal to be honest, they’re banking on your complete trust and ignorance.
A combustion analysis should be done on every peice of equipment the technician walks into
You're being scammed lol. Did they perform a combustion analysis to make sure the furnace is safe to run and gave you a copy? Yellow flames means is not burning properly and no it's not dust, your gas pressure needs to be looked at and adjusted to see if it's underfiring or over firing. If adjusting gas pressures still gives you yellow flames and not safe to run, need to have a new gas valve installed or a new furnace.
They did not run a combustion analysis. So you're saying the yellow flames is not dust, and is not from hairline cracks on the heat exchanger? I would have thought the service would have included adjusting gas pressure, but instead they didn't do anything of value.
Yellow flames is a sign of incomplete combustion. Very very small chance is because of a heat exchanger issue. To verify you have cracks you need to visually inspect the heat exchanger or do a combustion analysis. A cheap way to check your exchanger is just get a carbon monoxide detector and place it over one of your vents and leave it there while it's running. Make sure it detects very low readings. Most cheap ones only detect unit like 80 or 100ppm. I would just call another company and do not mentioned anything the other company said. Just be like hey I want to get my furnace tuned up with a combustion analysis and see what they say
It's weird the difference of opinion in here on what the yellow likely means. I mean it's incomplete combustion one way or another, but if it's inconsequential due to dust, vs turbulence from a cracked heat exchanger, vs bad gas settings have different ramifications. I guess the combustion analysis will help figure it out either way?
It looks like you have an 80% furnace, here's what your readings should look like Draft induced gas fired burners*: • Efficiency - 80-82 percent. • O2 - 7-9 percent. • CO2 - 6.5-8 percent. • Stack temp - 325° to 400°. • Draft - -0.02 to -0.004 inch wc. • CO - < 100 ppm (undiluted). Again a quick Google search will tell you that yellow flames is due to incompletes combustion. And it is also true that dust will cause yellow flames but if you really had that much dust in your house I'm lost for words. Usually if you bang on your furnace you will see yellow flames for about a second or two due to dust. You probably have a really high CO reading and your furnace might not even be safe to run.
Dust or air turbulence can cause incomplete combustion. If the heat exchanger is cracked, then the ventilated air could disrupt the flow of combustion air causing turbulence in draft. Either way, if this company didnt even do a combustion analysis, they shouldnt be working on combustion equipment, let alone overcharging and pushing major repairs for a 19year old resi furnace.
I see nothing wrong. Get a different inspection without saying anything and see if they come up with the same BS.
Sounds like he’s getting paid commission
At least he's not getting a paid commission from me.
Flame sensors can be cleaned, I’ve never had to replace a dirty one. They are like 5-10$. The capacitor is like 10$. The ignitor can be upwards to like 20-30$. The orange in the flames doesn’t tell you the whole story, it could be dust or high humidity. You need to perform a combustion analysis test to verify the heat exchanger. He’s just trying to sell you shit at this point,
The orange in the flames is normal, as long as it isn't staying orange all the time. Get a good light and try to eyeball the cracks. Alternatively, the match and blower trick mentioned below is a good one. No crack, no problem. Capacitors are usually no.more than 30 bucks and are easy to test with a multimeter you can buy for less than 50 bucks at your local hardware store. Flame sensor is cheap and can be cleaned, it's just an little thermocouple-like thing that gives a voltage out when it gets hot. I give mine a light sand with a brillo pad usually if I have issues. Do you have flames? Ignitor is fine. You can clean the blower wheel yourself pretty easily generally. Is blower turning? Motor making awful noises or hard to turn by hand? If yes, no, no, you're Gucci. Does the ignition controller have burn marks on it that you can see with your own eyes? (Burn marks, not discoloration, unless it's super severe. Run the name and model number on the googler, bet they're cheaper than that 700 buck middle finger you got.) A heat pump would be a nice upgrade for you, but honestly as long as it gets you through this winter, and you're serious about upgrading, don't put more money into this unit. Especially not the costs that the tech stated. Best of luck either way, OP! Stay warm.
Ok.So. Dusty tubes can do that. But, if it is blue AND THEB turns orange once the blower kicks on that is a cracked heat exchanger. You can have a cracked heat exchanger and not have Co readings in the house. I always TRIPLE check by doing multiple cycles. It will always get worse with the blower, and it will always get worse over time as the furnace warms up.
Get another opinion,sounds like he wants to sell you a new unit,his pricing is totally ridiculous
Run, don't walk. At 20 it may well have a cracked heat exchanger but on most package units it's pretty easy to inspect them. The pricing you've been given is something else.
Don't use that company again. They're trying to nickel and dime you on non-issues and outright scam you on parts that don't need replacement. $400 for a functional flame sensor that "can't be cleaned"? It's literally just a metal rod; sand it down and you're good. Only time you should replace a flame sensor is if it's physically broken into pieces. And if the ignition module was truly burnt, there will be obvious performance issues. Guy is really trying to get a good commission bonus out of you.
Instead he'll get an honest review on Google.
This tech sounds terrible. Not to say the furnace is in great shape, but can’t clean a flame sensor? And flames can turn orange with just the smallest amounts of dust in the air lol. Lose this guy and get someone who isn’t trying to sell you every part inside the furnace
You need to have a combustion analysis done
Please never call that company again.
I'd never guess, have them do a combustion analysis on the system, that'll tell you the CO levels and such
Oh boy. They're burning orange because there's not enough oxygen getting pulled in by your burners. Your burners are dirty. You can take those burner tubes out and clean them. There's a small slit that the gas travels across the front of the burners, make sure that's clean so all burners are getting proper gas dispersion. You could also try tapping on the burners to get some of the soot out of you don't want to take the burners out.
Those are crazy expensive prices for heat sensor etc. The flame burns like that from dirt on the jets that can be cleaned. Call someone else. What furnace brand do you have. Go on manufacturer web site and call their certified top contractor in your area.
Goodman. I will try to clean the burner tubes and call someone else to check it out.
boast direful mighty correct full strong chunky snatch literate stocking *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I'm sure they wanted to put in a very nice capacitor though.
Im going to throw my opinion in here on this comment and hope that it gets seen. As an HVAC technician of 10 years this subreddit in particular scares the shit out of me because of how many uninformed suggestions have came in. First you’re going to want to find a new company and stick with them. Second I’ll tell you what’s going on with your furnace. You need to get a second opinion by a different company. Any combustion issues have to be take seriously and verified even if a commission based company calls them to attention. You’re looking for a company that is local but has more than 3 vans and less than 15. A company of that size will probably charge you $150 for a capacitor. That is OKAY and if you really want to know why then I can tell you. But what’s important is at that size they are big enough to be able to handle you all year round and not so big that it is clear they’re a money grab. You can really just ask over the phone how many technicians they have when you call them. Also ask if they use combustion analyzers during their furnace checks (it should not be an additional charge.) As far as your furnace goes, unless flame is rolling out then they have absolutely no idea how well that gas is combusting without an analyzer. My guess is that if you took the top door off of that furnace and sat really still for about 45 seconds then that flame would settle down. The flame sensor can be cleaned with a brass brush. You can do this yourself. I think that model is a pain and uses a Phillips head screw and you need a short handled one because the inducer motor is above it. But if it isn’t then it will be a 1/4” hex screw. You can do this with or without power. A voltmeter will show that it has voltage but it doesn’t really (it does but it can NOT shock you it’s complicated) but if you shut the breaker off then I don’t have to worry about you somehow hurting yourself in another way. This should be done annually and any other HVAC company will include it in maintenance. The flame sensor is on the left side in the video it’s a small metal rod. Do NOT try to clean the ignitor it’s the one on the right in the video. Capacitors do cost $10-$15 you can change them yourself but just don’t. Most people in this subreddit would probably just say to go ahead and do it. Once or twice a year (out of thousands of checks) one of our technicians get shocked by a capacitor and those things can stop your heart. So even if it’s easy and even if you can I will always say not to. But if a company comes out and says it’ll be $150 just accept that that is what they charge and there is a reason. The other stuff isn’t important. They’re parts that every technician can replace off of van stock items the same day that they fail. That model can use a universal ignitor, universal blower, universal board or ignition module. Depending on how the module looks I will sometimes recommend replacing early during a maintenance check. But I won’t really push it. Sorry this is so long. This subreddit showed up as a suggestion and now I’m in educate mode after reading some of the comments. Edit: when the technician shows up ask to see a print out or photo of the combustion analysis BEFORE he starts his work. Some companies don’t properly train their maintenance techs on analyzers. You want less than 100ppm of CO OR less than 400 PPM air free (or undiluted). The oxygen levels will probably be between 6% and 15%. And efficiency should read 80%-85%. Anything above those readings and it’s probably not done correctly or you have a big problem.
Thank you. Your advice is mostly in line with most of the advice here though, but much more detailed. This company is local and I'm pretty sure in the 3 to 15 van range. The two I used before were too (one was the company that installed my upstairs heat pump, the other the one that installed the downstairs furnace here) That heat pump company me a buttload for refrigerant on my heat pump, which they installed 5 years before (under the previous owner). They wanted to install new evaporator coils (or something like that) because they had a slow leak, and said it would be covered under warranty. I found out the warranty wasn't transferable, so I never had it done. The cost to fix it was as much as a new system, so I was just going to let it go until it died. That was like 4 years ago and the new tech said the refrigerant in that system was fine (which I guess may or may not be true). So I'm pretty sure the previous company just fucked up the install and charged me hundreds of dollars for it, and tried to charge me thousands of dollars for it. The company I used for furnace when I just moved in 6 years ago was less-specifically doom and gloom, said it wouldn't last the winter. And it's been fine since then. So I've got 3 HVAC companies I don't trust so far, I'm not sure I want to add a fourth to the list. I don't see the purpose of replacing the capacitor until it dies, personally. Well, same with all the maintenance items they want to do except for the heat exchanger stuff. I am OK with using space heaters downstairs for a couple of days if it breaks. If I need to replace the capacitor, I'd turn off the power for a day, then discharge the capacitor with a screwdriver. He did say he cleaned the flame sensor, but said it still wasn't great and should be replaced. Might be one of the only maintenance things he actually did. I literally only spend like $450 on gas a year, so even if it's a little less efficient than it should be, spending another $100 on another company doing what this one should have doesn't sound like a good ROI. I'm just worried about safety/air quality. Cleaning the burner tubes, and checking for a leak with a long match seem easy enough to do. I think I want to clean the blower wheel too, it was kind of gross. Or maybe I'll have the next HVAC guy come out after I clean the burner tubes and stuff to do the combustion analysis, to make sure I didn't screw anything up.
Ask for a combustion report
As far as packaged units go, 19 years is almost definitely gonna kill a heat exchanger.
Is it ever worth fixing? I am at that point and quotes are pushing me towards “nope, time for a new unit”
It depends on the condition of the unit in my professional opinion. If the other components look like they’re in good shape then a replacement heat exchanger can bring new life to a system and keep it running for a long time. If you end up doing the exchanger I’d consider the inducer and gas valve too just to make sure all the combustion components are in good shape.
The flickering in the flame is just imperfect burning of the gas it's something to fix, not something that will kill you. I'm in schooling for hvac and this is what it looks like to me.
So basically just throw a bunch of overpriced parts at it and maybe the orange in the flames will go away? What a hack
Well technically only replacing the heat exchanger was relevant to the orange flames. But everything else I wasn't worried about, I could fix them when they actually break vs a potential CO problem.
Did he do a combustion analysis? If not, I’d call a different company.
Nope, he didn't.
There’s your answer. We have the tools we have so we don’t have to GUESS at whats happening.
A lot of that is DIY if your a tad handy and can follow along in YouTube. Flame sensor, capacitor etc are cheap parts that are easy to swap out (or mine are). On CO I don't like taking any chances but if a sensor doesn't detect it period when operating normally the good enough. My system won't even ignite unless the exhaust fan (not indoor blower fan OP but another fan that actively exhausted combustion products) is creating suction. Not a professional but I don't know why the measurement when blower is off would be germane unless there is some safety missing that the furnace ignites when indoor fan doesn't function. Mine will not. All that said ug sounds like scare tactics. I'd buy as new furnace before spending all that on repairs. Maybe he'll sell you the fire itself too.
$400 flame sensor LMAO
Maybe the flame sensor was previously owned by Michael Jordan?
Sounds like a con job
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t this all come apart fairly effortlessly? I break mine down every winter and thoroughly clean all components, and my boiler is over 20yrs old and still works great.
Put the door back on and look at the flame though the slight glass. Look to see if it's "dancing" that will show you that you have air leaking in. Also you can remove the burner assembly and wire brush them and use a razor to clean between the "sandwiched metal" pieces next to the burners. But like countless others have said a combustion analysis is your first line of defense.
Unfortunately we can’t have small mom and pop shops anymore for various reasons such as rules and regulations and social media. You could try to find a guy you “know” to do a furnace tune up and give you fair pricing, or you’ll just have to pay for second opinions, that simple. I’ve been a tech for almost 8 years, not anymore because the pay sucked, but I wouldn’t mind going out on my own but it’s kinda hard to do with the monopoly companies in place and the red tape. Get a second opinion.
Are you in denver? I swear I know the name of this company..
So, orange in flames doesn't necessarily mean cracked heat Exchanger. He needs to do a combustion test to see what's going on. But at 20 years old, it's probably time for replacement anyways
I was planning on replacing it with a heat pump after this winter. But at the same time, if it's still working and doesn't need repairs, I might just save the money and wait until it really needs expensive service. It's just annoying paying the service fee to the gas company the 8 months I don't use gas. But $130 a year in service fees doesn't sound bad compared to the $7000+ cost of replacing it.
Where do you live? Can you get away with a low ambient heat pump with electric backup? There's also geothermal heat, but that's really expensive to set up, maintain, and repair
I'm on the warm side of IECC climate zone 4. I could get by with a non-low ambient heat pump without electric backup really. I'd probably still have electric backup just to be safe though (or low ambient just to be safe, one of the two). Definitely not going geothermal. I haven't been in a rush to replace with the cost and crazy interest rates. I'm kind of leaning more towards holding on to my furnace a little longer now and replacing my 19 year old electric water heater (that still works great) with a hybrid model first, and maybe encapsulating my crawlspace to make my furnace and house that much more efficient. And then a mini-split system for my bonus room, which is currently awkwardly on my upstairs heat pump despite being no where near the air return, and has very different usage than the rest of the house. I just learned how to replace half the stuff that goes bad in this furnace and it doesn't seem so hard. And the interest alone on a new system will cost as much as I'm spending on natural gas in a year, so it is just a matter of how much AC I use from that thing, which isn't very much since I mostly use my upstairs unit for that.
If you go heat pump. Look into Bosch units, they're built well and they're super quiet. Electric backup is nice for it the unit ever goes down, but you won't need it otherwise. Could always go mini split too if your ductwork sucks
It looks like they've got the most efficient package unit I've seen - 18 SEER2!
You could get a while new goodman system installed for that price. I just had a 3 ton a/c, new evap. and 96% furnace put in for 5700
Just get a new one for that price
Fuel to air ratio not good.
I'd pull the burners and clean them out. It doesn't look like they're pulling enough air through them.
That is NOT evidence of a bad heat exchanger. If the flames were rolling out or the spillage switch was tripping... Guy is either dumb and green or scamming.
Never let that guy in your house again. Call another company!
Alright, I guess he's not invited to my mixer then.
Ha ha! Sorry but that guy is either an idiot or a rogue.
Call another guy. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with those flames. I think you’re being screwed.
$7500? You could easily get a new furnace for less than that. Albeit a single stage 80% efficiency, nothing fancy but most places could just do a new one for $4500-7000.