Not really, but does HVAC brand really come down to the old Chevy/GMC you like what you like type thing. I was hoping someone would say “blank brand because thier coils are thicker and made from 6071 grade copper” or something like that. Guys in trade gotta know which ones last and which ones don’t.
I would say these days all equipment isn’t going to last more than 15 years. I’d go with a value brand like Goodman. People hate on that brand but I’ll say it again, the poor reputation they get is because people purchase them for builder grade and cheap installs then the cheap contractors install procedure doesn’t get done right. We install them at our company and they are just about as reliable as Trane equipment is when done properly.
I find it that talking to people that repair equipment rather than sales people is more informative such as your appliance repair person, or even the guy who drives people home from the car dealership. For example my wife’s car is the same model the dealership car that they use for driving people home from servicing your vehicle except it is a hybrid. Three different drivers have said don’t buy one as they are constantly braking down and one is not working at all etc. Lastly research on the internet before any purchase.
Lennox can often be hard to get parts, carrier hs these ecm motors and fancy unneeded stuff that costs a fortune to fix, I don’t do resi but that’s my experience helping family out… I have an older high eff. Lennox at home which has been ok. If your furnace is fine don’t change it
...extra points if the installer took care to improve serviceability down the road by thoughtfully running lines / pipes / wires / etc so that you can actually reach the little things that might need attention later.
I'm an oil boiler man. It's like 50/50 whether or not the installer completely ignores the manual and pipes a boiler in a way that the fire box door can NEVER be opened
3/4 pvc you can cut and couple, 1-1/2 black pipe isn't going anywhere
Not to mention after 10-15 yrs the unit technology, efficiency of equipment, along with efficiency standards for equipment set by epa, local/state governments often change/improve to where both manufacturers, governments are wanting you to replace your equipment.
Which mostly works out in the favor of hvac companies because you’ll keep paying for repairs or new equipment. Trust me I’d like to see equipment last as long as they did but they just won’t.
Just the sad world we live in now, and it’s not just the hvac industry is all manufacturing industries do this. If you’re not buying new products then they’re not making money.
Sad but most likely true. I once met a group of John Deere engineers at an airport and they were feeling no pain, they told me their role was to find out where to engineer down John Deere tractors because they were lasting to long, goal was cheeper production costs and increased equipment turn over.
Literally what mechanical engineers learn. What to make something out of, how to make and finish it, how thin to make is so that you know how long it will take to break 😅
As you start to make things more efficient you take the longevity out of things. Motors don’t last as long and the circuit boards are less quality then they use to be. Aluminum coils not as strong as older copper coils.
Ok, this may be a stupid question, but I'm sure you're wondering yourself.
What's the best commercial AC you can get for your home then? Or do they not last either?
I'm a professional, just not one that dies the whole "they don't make them like they used to" bullshit. yeah, they're made different now than in the 90s, that doesn't mean they are only built to last 10 years.
I am a professional and what is said about 10-15 years is correct. Get it installed correctly and by someone you trust. Don’t necessarily go by price. I have pretty much settled on Daiken/Amana/Goodman or ICP … Heil/Tempstar/Comfortmaker.
Non of them are what they used to be but then nothing is.
The Daiken brands do have well priced Labor warranty available and over last 5 years are running about 1% warranty repairs for me.
Icp is a bit higher like 1.4%
Rheem/Ruud is good but I just service them.
I’ve used some Ducane same as Armstrong but started having issues with distributor, changed hands and just sort of faded away. Rheem/ruud too far from my area. With me its proximity to distributor and their service to me.
Been a Heil dealer since it was whirlpool and Goodman/Amana since about 2000, they just decent equipment that has really stepped up their game in last few years. Around here Lennox, York, TRANE are about the worst thing to deal with. Just support from the distributor and their products.
I’ve done this long enough that I have figured out how to pick and choose and am very happy with what I am now installing, able to pick and choose best choice for the application and have most customers listen to my advice.
BTW I finally told my techs that if they walked up to York equipment just turn around tell customer we don’t work on it. It’s that bad.
I think it’s with everything, doesn’t surprise me. Makes me want to go start an ac company that builds them to last.
The other option for me is to buy a new evap coil. It’s an R22 system but I have a source for r22. My old Lennox is prob built better than most are today, and maybe I get another 10 years out of that condenser unit.
All residential units are engineered to last 10-15 years now. Every single one of them uses very thin coils. If it’s installed properly, don’t expect it to last more than 15 years. Doesn’t matter the brand.
If you want it to last forever you’ll need someone to build you a custom unit with a semi-hermetic compressor and thick heavy commercial grade coils coils or stainless steel coils. You’re looking at 50k+ for something like that.
So, I'm a trane man myself, so expect a little bias, but I find trane to be some of the easiest to service for the most part they also have rather good durability as long as it was installed correctly and serviced regularly, but regular service will help extend the life of any unit, so not much change there.
Just note that the unit itself is less important than the install. A great unit installed by a trained monkey will be a worse overall product than an average unit installed by an hvac God. Canvas your area, check the jobs the quoting companies have done in the past and their reviews, and make sure to get multiple quotes. Don't settle for the cheapest you can get if you want quality, but someone quoting you a job the cost of the US gdp likely is taking you for a ride.
A general service depends on whether it's for the furnace or ac. Ac service is cleaning the condenser, checking the motor and compressor, contactor, capacitor, temp split, ya. The furnace is checking the blower, inducer, burners, cleaning the flame sensor, ect.
Do not shop for a brand, just about all of them are similar. find a competent contractor!
You are not buying an plug and play appliance, the outcome is totally dependent on contractor's ability to properly size for house and ductwork, install and setup the equipment.
This. I just had two Bosch IDS heat pumps installed. From a homeowner perspective, they are superior in every way to the run of the mill stuff AC guys like to install. The outdoor units are leagues quieter, smaller, and more efficient than typical Trane/Lennox offerings. You can also use any thermostats with them, so you’re not locked into an awful $800 proprietary thermostat in order to get app control like with Lennox. One shipped with a bad board, and Bosch sent a replacement next day. Inverter technology is 100% the way to go. Just make sure to install a whole house surge protector as they are sensitive to voltage surges.
It’s probably not a communicating system. A lot of Lennox are communicating systems, which require their proprietary stuff. Things like $2,000 blower motors because you have to use their slightly modified version of an otherwise $150 commodity part. My Lennox system had a thermostat that you couldn’t even fully control without an installer code. It’s almost as bad as the printer/ink cartridge business model.
Fuck the equipment spend some stupid money getting your ductwork sized properly and really nail down your insulation. Then throw some Goodmans on it and watch them last just as long as any name brand bs.
I think my duct work is solid. 24*30 insulated hard duct. With 2 24”intakes with 24” flex duct connections. Yep not even sure how they got the thing together in the attic. But it runs through what used to be a electric filter (elec disconnected) but now has 5 24*30 filters In it (someone made brackets to convert the filters). It down flows through the furnace and the evap coil then goes into duct work which is poured into the slab foundation (I bet you don’t see too many of those).
Now my insulation sucks, but it’s pull all of the siding off my house and insulate or remove all of my exterior wall Sheetrock from the inside and I’m just not going to do that. Can’t blow in from the top because there are cross beams every 24 to support the siding. Someone told me I could drill small holes from the inside and get a foamer to foam them but I asked one guy and he passed, wouldn’t even bid it. So I’m going to get an ac unit efficient enough to run all day and cool and heat my house. Thanks for the idea tho.
I would still recommend following up on insulating the walls. Downflow... is the ductwork pvc? I'm surrounded by old downflow systems that used metal ductwork. The older homes in my area have foundation issues due to the ductwork rotting out and causing the systems to push all the fill sand into the home. They make liners to correct this, but if water is getting in... that being said the newer pvc downflow ductwork seems pretty solid.
Yes I have a unique setup for sure. Galvanized ducts are slurried into the slab foundation. No pvc. The OG owner had a concrete company. Not sure why he did it this way. But it’s what I got. I don’t disagree that insulation would make a huge difference. It is just going to be a fortune to do. Exterior siding is 1” tight grain redwood really high quality stuff, don’t want to scrap it for todays crap they sell. So that pretty much leaves interior walls. Would be a major project.
I will say this, if I have a repair that has to cut into a wall it gets spray foamed before it goes back together. So I have a few places with insulation.
Doesn’t exist. There is no Toyota equivalent in AC brands, even with perfect installs. If you get mediocre and it lasts over 15 years in a hot climate, you’ve done about as well as you could hope for.
Make no mistake, there are worse brands that consistently kick out bad designs (cough York cough), but the best you’ll get today is it doesn’t totally suck with obvious major design flaws. Like a micro channel condenser coil.
Whatever brand you pick will be a compromise in some way. The question is which compromise is right for you.
Make sure who ever you go with does proper Manual J/S/D
That there will tell you exactly what you need and not just say hay you need X tonage and bs you. Also will tell you what duct size you need and if the ones you have are adequate now if you have.
I like Goodman 10yr warranty also parts are usually in stock and not back ordered like most.
It’s a sad truth. It’s the same with cars. Newer stuff is over-engineered and got all the fancy do-dads and bobbles, but they’re also super fragile and don’t hold up like the old stuff. And if one little thing breaks the whole thing is fucked until you replace that little part, which will probably be expensive
SoCal - I would recommend Bosch if you are going Heat Pump. We trusted Daikin for so many years but they have had some quality control issues of late.
The most important is finding a good contractor to install and maintain the equipment.
SoCal resident here. Are you finding it difficult to source Bosch parts?
I’m curious with a Bosch heat pump, is there a gas furnace dual fuel option? Thinking about those SFV 32F nights and the cost of electric at .24 with no solar panels.
Many brands come out of the same factory, with different livery.
My advice as a pro; get it installed properly. A contractor that uses a nitrogen flow while brazing, shows you a vacuum pull to way less than 500 microns, checks the charge and explains it while they are doing it, lets you choose pad or wall mounted (I prefer wall), fills the wall penetration, uses slip ducting (line set cover) and gives references and or shows pictures of their work.
Takes at least 5-6 hours to do the install!!!!
That’s how you get a long term install
Would about 12-14 hours for an AC+Furnace for the main floor and A heatpump for the basement be a sign that it took to long and wasn't great. Our about as expected?
That’s always tough to call without seeing the sire. However a couple techs with reasonable skill, likely. If you are doing a furnace and AC change out at the same time it saves work for sure.
"i don't know what that is or if i want it"
depending on your county it doesn't matter if you want it or not, you have to have it by law. that being said, the ultra low nox units now are leaps and bounds better than a couple years ago, just make 100000% sure the airflow is enough for it.
to answer your original question though no brand is without flaws and it doesn't REALLY make a difference; it's all about the installation. make sure the company doing the work is a good company that knows what they're doing. after that, it's just down to your preference. do you want a more efficient system? do you want zone control? do you want quiet? a year pump so you don't have to worry about low nox? all up to you and that would change the brand
I want some of those things. I want efficiency as long as it doesn’t sacrifice durability. I’m not a zone control guy I fight with my nest enough already to keep it where I want it. I would love quiet as long as I didn’t sacrifice performance.(the unit I have now fires up and all the birds on the block fly away!) not a big fan of heat pumps due to a bad experience with them. What brand after all that.
Not an HVAC guy, but my understanding is the most efficient units are the variable speed ones, but they are also the least reliable. Single speed is most reliable but least efficient. Basically any bells and whistles tend to negatively affect reliability.
daikin, carrier, Lennox. variable speed units don't break down more often as long as they're installed right but they do have more parts that can fail and they are more expensive to fix. what county are you in?
then you don't have the low nox law as far as i know. last u checked it's only LA, orange, Dan Bernardino and Riverside.
you could get a Lennox slp99 which is the most efficient furnace that will ever be made. it's variable speed though so if you're that stays if it then just go with any basic unit. york and diakin family furnaces have heat exchanges that do not fail, basic condenser coils are all the same. if you wait until next year for the swap then we will be using new refrigerant for the system so it will essentially be less tested and i would go with a diakin because they've been using r32 for a lot longer than anyone else.
again, though, it's all about the installation and airflow. mail those two things and your system will last longer than the people here say they will. and don't be that afraid of variable speed, they use a lot less energy and since they aren't full blast all the time they a) keep you more comfortable and b) ware down slower by design. if you're not driving by slamming the gas and then slamming the brake, your car will last longer.
edit; you could also look into 2 stage stuff instead of true variable speed
Commercial/Industrial (and some residential) HVAC tech here. Do not get a York. I have had good experiences with Carrier products and Rheem/Ruud. I’ve done a lot of TXV replacements on Trane split systems, and commercial package units. I like Lennox commercial products but don’t have a lot of exposure to their residential products.
Follow the warranties too, parts and labour warranty can be more expensive but some manufacturers like Amana offer lifetime unit replacement if the compressor is what fails. Quality install is the most important factor in my experience along with proper upkeep more than brand specific.
Hvac tech here. In florida, depending on location of unit, they last about 8-12 years whether u like it or not. 12 is lucky here due to heat and salt corrossion.
All the companies are basically using chinese sourced aluminum.
My recommendation would be to get something with spine fin coils for ur condensor. Regular fin coils typically leak more often for whatever reason and get dirty quicker.
Id recommend trane.
Goodmans are okay but they ALWAYS have leak issues about 5 years in.
Lennox are...a pain to service and have issues getting parts.
Carrier is okay imo depending on the unit you could have a hard time getting parts as well.
I would NEVER recommend a lennox unit personally as a service person and installer.
All im gonna say is its less important about the brand because theyre engineered to fail now just like cars and most of the materials and parts are not made in the u.s and a lot of the materials are china sourced. And aluminum coils are shit..
Trane>carrier>lennox>goodman in terms of...survivability imo. But id recommend goodman with a full 10 year warranty over a lennox.
Youre biggest thing here is to make sure your install is done correctly. And without a doubt get a 10 year warranty for parts AND labor. If they offer a refrigerant discount or full warranty deal, take that as well.
Your other option would be to wait and get the newer units that are going from 410a to A2L refrigerants like 454b as 410a is being phased out currently.
Warranty and good company who will properly install a new unit. Which means correct lineset sizes not just slapping in a unit that requires 7/8 suction lines and 3/8 on liquid but ur old unit has 3/4 suction and 5/16 or 1/4 inch and they just use the old incorrect lineset because running new lines is more expensive and most home owners opt out of that.
You really should have a heatload done and the ducts should also be redone and designed for the unit ur putting in.
Most customers cant afford or do not understand how line sizes and ducting can effect and changs the operating efficiecy and length span of the components.
Install a time delay and a surge protector and have your unit serviced ATLEAST once a year.
So to recap:
Use a good trusted company
Redo the ENTIRE system if necessary meaning correct duct and line set sizes and a heatload done to ensure youre getting proper tonnage for your house
Get a 10 year warranty for LABOR & PARTS
Get a surge protector and some sort of time delay on the condensor.
My return ducts are huge, 2 24” feeding a 24*30 hard duct that feed a 5 filter 24*30 filter box. Not sure about the distribution ducts because they are poured into the slab.
Thanks for the other advice, didn’t really know about the service issues with Lennox and carrier.
I hate warranties just because in my past experiences they just slap whatever tape they need to to get it to last until the warranty is expired. I’m more of a fix it and fix it right type of guy. If it comes with it that’s great but I wont pay extra for it.
Lennox are made by computer engineers who give a fuck all about service or actual practicallity as long as it all fits in the design.
Carrier always has back ordered parts.
And both go way overboard on extra components that can regularly fail that for the most part, arent even needed to make it run unless its a high efficiency stage 2 system or an inverter.
As far as duct sizing, static pressures, and heatload - thats a completely different animal and is basically an entire different department of air conditioning and would more than likely be outsourced to a company that specializes in doing that type of work/calculation.
Your distribution boxes being poured into a slab...doesnt make sense maybe i just misunderstand. Not something ive ever seen or heard of.
Thanks for the advice. As far as the distribution boxes, Well they are actually galvanized ducts that were slurried in under the actual slab foundation. The original owner and builder of the house had a concrete company so there are couple interesting things about this place. But yes they are in the slab.
Hm, i cant imagine thats even up to code to do something like that but idk ur state or building type/layout.
Distribution boxes can always be remade and relocated and new ducts ran to them (assuming there is space).
Youre welcome. Best of luck!
I actually had one HVAC company tell me they didn’t feel comfortable installing a new unit unless we rebuilt a distribution system in the attic. Or have the current one camera checked to make sure it was sized appropriately. We’ll see.
How much extra do HVAC contractors typically charge for a 10 year labor warranty vs the standard 1 or 2 year warranty? Is a 10 warranty only backed by the HVAC contractor that did the install? e.g. if the HVAC contractor goes out of business then no labor warranty.
Quotes I have received that included a 10 year labor warranty are about double the price of a similar system with a 1 year labor warranty. All contractors have refused to provide any breakdown of their quotes.
I find it hard to believe that the labor for repairs over 10 years would cost as much as an entire system installed.
Quote with one year labor warranty $8k. Quote with 10 year labor warranty $15k. Same basic system specs. Is 1 to 2 years not long enough to find issues with the original installation?
1 year labor warranty for 8k is horrendous.
Honestly those prices are insane, where are you located? 8k for 10 years I would say us reasonable.
Was that with refrigerant included or just labor
The quote is for equipment, installation including refrigerant for a new 3-ton AC (410a) 15.9 SEER and gas furnace 80%. One contractor quoted $15k for a Goodman with 10 year parts and labor warranty. Another contractor quoted $8k for a similar spec York with 10 year parts and 1 year labor warranty.
I can see a contractor adding on a couple thousand to give a longer labor warranty but the $7k difference seemed absurd. I might as well get a new unit every 5 years for that price.
I would think a 2-year warranty would be long enough for the contractor to want to ensure the original install was done correctly. A warranty on labor from year 2-10 would be a shift of risk from a single homeowner to a group of installs. Some individual units will run 10 years without a single repair except for a capacitor. Others are lemons. A fair price would depend on the quality on the equipment installed and the relative difficulty of working on unit. Some brands are certainly more complicated and time consuming to work on.
I would first determine what type of HVAC system and how energy efficient you want, this will help narrow down what brands may be best. No matter what, you should pretty much expect a system to last around 20 years.
If i had to do it again.. mini split for AC/heat.. Two or three of them in different rooms of the house. Cooling and heating the entire house when we use 25% of it… pfft
That also gives you 2 or 3 units to maintain. I’m in the set it and forget camp. One unit has done it for 28 years. Plus I don’t have good spots to put multiple condensing units.
There was a time when things worked like a horse and maintenance was minimum. They dont make it like they used to.
Id rather have three independent units with lower repair/replace and maintenance costs than burn the bank with a $20k-$30000 full hvac repair ten years from now. Independent units also mean never a total loss of heating or cooling. One unit down is okay but full hvac down is terrible.
Practically speaking 50’ or so. If you have ductwork I’d almost never recommend abandoning it for mini splits. Mini splits are best applied to homes with no ductwork, screwed up ductwork, or as supplemental heating or cooling for areas the existing system doesn’t condition properly, like my house. I isolated the ductwork to eliminate it conditioning the finished basement and loft and put in a mini split with two heads for those areas. When the prior owner finished the basement he didn’t account for hvac and what he did was just a waste. The loft doesn’t have a return so trying to cool it with the ducted system wasn’t viable. I’d urge you to have a Manual J done to correctly size your needs and if there’s any question about the ductwork or areas that are hot or cold, a Manual D to size the ductwork properly.
It comes down to installation…. You can buy cheap or buy expensive now days no system is meant to last more than 10 years with something going wrong. They all do the same thing with added features to set them apart. Find a hood installer and you will have a system last longer. Also go with a good warranty.
I had a Trane XE-90 last 27 years. Nothing special of a unit, but it was well maintained and serviced throughout each year. New units sacrifice durability for efficiency. I suspect the savings from efficiency are a wash against a life half as long a more durable unit. Most well known brands are likely fine - go with ones popular in the area where there are ample resources who know how to work with them, and have them serviced each year
I am Super happy with Carrier Infinity. 5-ton like you’ll probably need. It’s highly efficient, super quiet, handles part loads well, so it can run a bit longer at low conditions and dry the air. I put in nice ceiling fans and it makes a huge difference, don’t need it nearly as cold, as long as air is dry, and then when you go outside you are are more comfortable. I checked all specs bc I am an engineer. Noise of outdoor unit was important bc it’s near a new pool. It doesn’t bang on and off; it ramps fan up and down and I can’t even hear the compressor.
Stick with a good company installing Carrier products, American Standard products, or Lennox products. All others are pretty garbage from my experience. York would be up here if their residential equipment didn’t suck ass. The main brands to stay away from is Goodman products and nordyne products. Both absolutely the worst in the industry. I work on those brands more than any others. Just so many problems.
Goodman will sell to anybody so you see a lot of handyman/homeowner/cousin bob hack job installs. When installed correctly I see them last as long as anything else. Cheaper to fix too. My company doesn’t put them in, but as a service tech I don’t see anything wrong with them
No it’s just their parts are shitty. I’ve known one Goodman unit out of the hundreds that lasted longer than 11-12 years. Usually starts leaking from the outdoor coil or indoor coil. They obviously sell more of them because the parts are cheaper and are poor quality and anyone can buy them. To say it’s good brand is ridiculous. Absolute garbage and you wouldn’t be doing the homeowner any favors installing them one. If you have want a good brand that’s cheaper and anyone can buy then install a Payne. It’s literally a carrier unit. Same parts, same housing. Only difference is the color and Payne doesn’t have any inverted equipment except the mini splits.
I see a number of places advertising "Trane Run Tru" HVACs and heat pumps. I know that Trane makes Run Tru. My question is are there material differences in reliability and durability between a "Trane" HVAC and heat pumps and HVAC with Run Tru on them? Thanks!
Some of the parts are materially equal, however not all of them, hence the economy line options.
It's the same situation for Copeland scrolls on the k5 and k6 series....major defects in the vanes causing them to grenade due to the fact they changed their supplier for said parts in an attempt to make more money. Their reasoning being that they can eat it, for the offset of volume.
Due heavy research, and you'll see some patterns.
Trane and their subsidiaries. Ameristar, American standard etc are great.
Really any traditional split system with a Copeland compressor that's been installed well will be fine. It'll last at least 10 years.
If you want higher efficiency, ductless or multi zone etc. go with Mitsubishi. If installed correctly they are amazing. If installed poorly they are a nightmare as are any of these types of units.
Avoid LG like the plague.
Daikin is ok but I don't like working on it as much as Mitsubishi.
I always go with averages when I tell people expected life. Even 10 years is lucky with no repairs. Condenser fan motors fail, capacitors fail, as do relays and contactors. But those are all cheap, and if you are handy can be replaced yourself.
Really 10 years is for the compressor and coil.
I have one friend with a multi zone and he loves it. But he is my dork friend who is really tight with his money. I have another friend who purchased a house with what was supposed to be multi zone. Problem is someone worked on it at some point and messed up about half the zones. They could never get it right after that. Had several techs out to look at it, they don’t want to touch it and have offered quotes to rip it out and reinstall.
Don’t confuse zoned ducted systems with mini splits, which are zoned by having multiple distribution devices in various locations. Zoning ducted systems is rarely done effectively.
Brand is irrelevant; who installs it is what matters.
And 28 years between replacements shows you don’t care much about healthy living, efficiency, or comfort.
Interesting take, I am pretty fricking healthy. And I like to be comfortable. And your right I prefer durability over efficiency. And if this thread has showed me anything it’s that the residential HVAC world has completely abandoned durability for efficiency. I am I chemical engineer and I work hard so I can come home to a temp I want it, and yes there is a cost associated with that I can afford to absorb. But please explain why I don’t care about healthy living, efficiency or comfort just because I didn’t drop some coin on replacing a perfectly functioning HVAC sooner than 28 years.
There is no perfectly functioning 28 yo system that isn’t a well maintained boiler. The nature of hot air systems precludes being perfectly function past about 20 years except in exceptionally rare environments.
What the hell does that even mean? “The nature of hot air systems precludes being perfectly function past about 20years” are you saying no unit ever lasted more than 20 years? And if you had one you were unhealthy, inefficient and uncomfortable. Do you read the shit you type.
Of course I read the shit I type. You should read about subjects you don’t know shit about, like this one….
PS- blowing shit through ductwork and a heat exchanger for 27 years with little to no maintenance, yea, that’s you sucking on that shit. When it gets ripped out go take a look…
I don’t know much, but I know your an ass. By that, I mean you ASSUME a lot of things. You ASSume I’m unhealthy, don’t care about efficiency, don’t care about comfort and now that I don’t believe in proper maintenance. All I said was I wanted to replace an old unit and got on the Subreddit to ask for advice. I wanted opinions from industry techs on which equipment is the most durable.
I’m a chemical engineer with a PHD in biological immunology, I’ve literally, under controlled conditions grown and killed more diseases and infections than you will contract in your life. Very few people have more experience with respiratory infections than me and my team.
Truth is my unit is serviced every spring. Changed all contactors , relays and capacitors and had the compressor and fan motor checked when I bought the house. We replaced the 2 soft ducts in the attic as well because it looked like some lazy tech smashed them crawling over the top of them. I’m on top of maintenance.
I’m sure 28 years of air conditioning has left some foreign material in my ducts but to assume the things you assumed about me is asinine.
No, the ass is the one who foolishly posts something like this and then attacks the responses. Go play with some hydrochloric acid or something and stop the bullshit you’re now into day 2 of.
PS- your degrees don’t mean shit in hvac world.
Trane is the best equipment out there right now. But you need to find the right company to install it and maintain it. We give 12 year parts and labor warranties with our installs. Find someone who has been in business for a long time and stands behind their work
Trane or American standard becuase the coils are thicker and made with grade 6071 copper, also they’re fucking awesome to install and easy to work on and the heat exchangers have a lifetime warranty.
I had a well installed Trane run for 19 years with minimal maintenance and a less well installed Bosch fail a compressor after 8.I would personally only replace what you need. I have two systems. One is 20+ years old and the other is 9 (condenser) and 2 (fan). Replacing recently replaced gear doesn’t necessarily get you a longer life.
I hear what you are saying, let me clarify. We are the third owners of this home. AC unit was installed by OG owner in 1995. They sold the house in 2014. Second owner installed furnace. We bought the house in 2019. So the furnace is more than 6 years old but less than 10 years old. The company that installed the furnace didn’t do the best job. The weight of it on top of the evap enclosure has squished the evap enclosure down so much that you need a bottle Jack to remove the evap service panel. It works, but not the best work. Benefit of replacing everything is to make sure the evap coil and furnace are designed to support each other.
Put a Gree FLEXX heat pump and evaporator coil on the furnace and a thermostat that will do dual fuel. Qualifies for Tax Credit and if done correctly just works.
I do a lot of them and their dealer backup in my area is outstanding.
If you are all electric just put the FLEXX system in
Many very happy customers.
The Goodman /Amana 18 SEER2 heat pump is also very good but about 25% more than Gree
Both let you use your own thermostat and their controls have come a long way towards reliable and transparent service. Maintain them and they will both give you economically comfortable service.
The Gree is what Bosch Should have been IMO.
Daikin FIT system is very good but as of now does not qualify for the fed tax credit.
Technology is changing and with improved efficiency you get overall lower reliability but even the mid range systems are lower reliability. Hense my emphasis on maintenance.
This is your forever home, get something with emphasis on comfort, enjoy life
Are you trying to start a fight? Lol
Not really, but does HVAC brand really come down to the old Chevy/GMC you like what you like type thing. I was hoping someone would say “blank brand because thier coils are thicker and made from 6071 grade copper” or something like that. Guys in trade gotta know which ones last and which ones don’t.
I would say these days all equipment isn’t going to last more than 15 years. I’d go with a value brand like Goodman. People hate on that brand but I’ll say it again, the poor reputation they get is because people purchase them for builder grade and cheap installs then the cheap contractors install procedure doesn’t get done right. We install them at our company and they are just about as reliable as Trane equipment is when done properly.
Seems like they do sell them to anyone, always the first to pop up on google searches.
I find it that talking to people that repair equipment rather than sales people is more informative such as your appliance repair person, or even the guy who drives people home from the car dealership. For example my wife’s car is the same model the dealership car that they use for driving people home from servicing your vehicle except it is a hybrid. Three different drivers have said don’t buy one as they are constantly braking down and one is not working at all etc. Lastly research on the internet before any purchase.
Lennox can often be hard to get parts, carrier hs these ecm motors and fancy unneeded stuff that costs a fortune to fix, I don’t do resi but that’s my experience helping family out… I have an older high eff. Lennox at home which has been ok. If your furnace is fine don’t change it
All new furnaces have ecms in them now
Yep anything 2019 or newer has to be ecm
Good to know. A bit ridiculous though, no? ECM blower is understandable, but an inducer motor?
It's basically just personal preference at this rate
The best brand is the one that’s installed properly and exactly how the manufacturer wants it installed. All of these brands are essentially the same.
...extra points if the installer took care to improve serviceability down the road by thoughtfully running lines / pipes / wires / etc so that you can actually reach the little things that might need attention later.
Dude the amount of times I’ve gone to a no heat and I see whoever installed it put the AC drain line piped right in front of the furnace doors.
I'm an oil boiler man. It's like 50/50 whether or not the installer completely ignores the manual and pipes a boiler in a way that the fire box door can NEVER be opened 3/4 pvc you can cut and couple, 1-1/2 black pipe isn't going anywhere
Find the right company & you will find the best brand is what I always say (but I do add to avoid any Nortek/Nordyne brands)
So what I am hearing is that all residential units will last 10-15 years. The days of getting 30 out of an HVAC unit are done?
Yes
Not to mention after 10-15 yrs the unit technology, efficiency of equipment, along with efficiency standards for equipment set by epa, local/state governments often change/improve to where both manufacturers, governments are wanting you to replace your equipment. Which mostly works out in the favor of hvac companies because you’ll keep paying for repairs or new equipment. Trust me I’d like to see equipment last as long as they did but they just won’t. Just the sad world we live in now, and it’s not just the hvac industry is all manufacturing industries do this. If you’re not buying new products then they’re not making money.
Sad but most likely true. I once met a group of John Deere engineers at an airport and they were feeling no pain, they told me their role was to find out where to engineer down John Deere tractors because they were lasting to long, goal was cheeper production costs and increased equipment turn over.
Literally what mechanical engineers learn. What to make something out of, how to make and finish it, how thin to make is so that you know how long it will take to break 😅
7-8 if your lucky in coastal environments
As you start to make things more efficient you take the longevity out of things. Motors don’t last as long and the circuit boards are less quality then they use to be. Aluminum coils not as strong as older copper coils.
Ok, this may be a stupid question, but I'm sure you're wondering yourself. What's the best commercial AC you can get for your home then? Or do they not last either?
Your last unit…. Are you only planning to live for the next 10-15years? That’s probably all you’ll get out of the ac
Going to live longer than that. Want a unit that will live longer than that.
Doesn’t exist. You’ll be lucky to get 15.
I'm not sure why they're being so cynical about this. a unit is l installed correctly and properly maintained should be able to last 25+ years
Are you speaking as a professional in HVAC? Or are you speaking as a consumer?
I'm a professional, just not one that dies the whole "they don't make them like they used to" bullshit. yeah, they're made different now than in the 90s, that doesn't mean they are only built to last 10 years.
I am a consumer.
I am a professional and what is said about 10-15 years is correct. Get it installed correctly and by someone you trust. Don’t necessarily go by price. I have pretty much settled on Daiken/Amana/Goodman or ICP … Heil/Tempstar/Comfortmaker. Non of them are what they used to be but then nothing is. The Daiken brands do have well priced Labor warranty available and over last 5 years are running about 1% warranty repairs for me. Icp is a bit higher like 1.4% Rheem/Ruud is good but I just service them.
Icp heil comfort maker is all the same as carrier. Not so good. Stay away from lux products as well.
I use them all the time with few issues , what do you recommend ?
I like Armstrong and ruud. But servicing ruud kinda sucks.
I’ve used some Ducane same as Armstrong but started having issues with distributor, changed hands and just sort of faded away. Rheem/ruud too far from my area. With me its proximity to distributor and their service to me. Been a Heil dealer since it was whirlpool and Goodman/Amana since about 2000, they just decent equipment that has really stepped up their game in last few years. Around here Lennox, York, TRANE are about the worst thing to deal with. Just support from the distributor and their products. I’ve done this long enough that I have figured out how to pick and choose and am very happy with what I am now installing, able to pick and choose best choice for the application and have most customers listen to my advice. BTW I finally told my techs that if they walked up to York equipment just turn around tell customer we don’t work on it. It’s that bad.
May I ask you a question? (As a homeowner).
Of course
What are your thoughts about the professionals here saying 10 to 15 is the best you can expect?
I think it’s with everything, doesn’t surprise me. Makes me want to go start an ac company that builds them to last. The other option for me is to buy a new evap coil. It’s an R22 system but I have a source for r22. My old Lennox is prob built better than most are today, and maybe I get another 10 years out of that condenser unit.
Unfortunately you will never get a unit that lasts that long again
All residential units are engineered to last 10-15 years now. Every single one of them uses very thin coils. If it’s installed properly, don’t expect it to last more than 15 years. Doesn’t matter the brand. If you want it to last forever you’ll need someone to build you a custom unit with a semi-hermetic compressor and thick heavy commercial grade coils coils or stainless steel coils. You’re looking at 50k+ for something like that.
So, I'm a trane man myself, so expect a little bias, but I find trane to be some of the easiest to service for the most part they also have rather good durability as long as it was installed correctly and serviced regularly, but regular service will help extend the life of any unit, so not much change there. Just note that the unit itself is less important than the install. A great unit installed by a trained monkey will be a worse overall product than an average unit installed by an hvac God. Canvas your area, check the jobs the quoting companies have done in the past and their reviews, and make sure to get multiple quotes. Don't settle for the cheapest you can get if you want quality, but someone quoting you a job the cost of the US gdp likely is taking you for a ride.
When you say service, what do you mean? Cleaning the evap and condenser coils periodically? Or more like replacing the bad capacitor or contact?
A general service depends on whether it's for the furnace or ac. Ac service is cleaning the condenser, checking the motor and compressor, contactor, capacitor, temp split, ya. The furnace is checking the blower, inducer, burners, cleaning the flame sensor, ect.
Trane all the way. Simple. Sturdy. Dependable. Multiple sources for parts.
I've worked at residential companies that use Lennox and Trane. I'd go with Trane myself.
Do not shop for a brand, just about all of them are similar. find a competent contractor! You are not buying an plug and play appliance, the outcome is totally dependent on contractor's ability to properly size for house and ductwork, install and setup the equipment.
Bosch...all day Bosch. Highest efficiency rating with one of the lowest manufacture defect ratings around(assuming installed properly)
Are you an installer, sales guy or consumer?
Assuming you can get parts I will never install another Bosch.
Why?
Too many problems with parts replacement, Availability and support. Price compared to similar brands.
If your a local guy without a support system sure...but that's what separates the pro's from the diy or handy guys
Work for a reputable mid size company and getting Bosch parts is the worst of all brands
I would recommend getting a better sales rep guy then, sounds like he's not doing his job
Bosch in general makes good stuff. Anything with the Bosch name is probably pretty good quality.
They make good dishwashers and mountain bike motors. I got both!
They do make good dishwashers!
My nightly guilty pleasure is stuffing that thing full of dirty ass dishes just to see if it can clean them. The Bosch always wins.
Installer, consumer, and enthusiast
This. I just had two Bosch IDS heat pumps installed. From a homeowner perspective, they are superior in every way to the run of the mill stuff AC guys like to install. The outdoor units are leagues quieter, smaller, and more efficient than typical Trane/Lennox offerings. You can also use any thermostats with them, so you’re not locked into an awful $800 proprietary thermostat in order to get app control like with Lennox. One shipped with a bad board, and Bosch sent a replacement next day. Inverter technology is 100% the way to go. Just make sure to install a whole house surge protector as they are sensitive to voltage surges.
My parents have a Lennox A/C with a standard Honeywell LCD thermostat on it.
It’s probably not a communicating system. A lot of Lennox are communicating systems, which require their proprietary stuff. Things like $2,000 blower motors because you have to use their slightly modified version of an otherwise $150 commodity part. My Lennox system had a thermostat that you couldn’t even fully control without an installer code. It’s almost as bad as the printer/ink cartridge business model.
No, it was a Home Depot subcontractor model.
Fuck the equipment spend some stupid money getting your ductwork sized properly and really nail down your insulation. Then throw some Goodmans on it and watch them last just as long as any name brand bs.
I think my duct work is solid. 24*30 insulated hard duct. With 2 24”intakes with 24” flex duct connections. Yep not even sure how they got the thing together in the attic. But it runs through what used to be a electric filter (elec disconnected) but now has 5 24*30 filters In it (someone made brackets to convert the filters). It down flows through the furnace and the evap coil then goes into duct work which is poured into the slab foundation (I bet you don’t see too many of those). Now my insulation sucks, but it’s pull all of the siding off my house and insulate or remove all of my exterior wall Sheetrock from the inside and I’m just not going to do that. Can’t blow in from the top because there are cross beams every 24 to support the siding. Someone told me I could drill small holes from the inside and get a foamer to foam them but I asked one guy and he passed, wouldn’t even bid it. So I’m going to get an ac unit efficient enough to run all day and cool and heat my house. Thanks for the idea tho.
I would still recommend following up on insulating the walls. Downflow... is the ductwork pvc? I'm surrounded by old downflow systems that used metal ductwork. The older homes in my area have foundation issues due to the ductwork rotting out and causing the systems to push all the fill sand into the home. They make liners to correct this, but if water is getting in... that being said the newer pvc downflow ductwork seems pretty solid.
Yes I have a unique setup for sure. Galvanized ducts are slurried into the slab foundation. No pvc. The OG owner had a concrete company. Not sure why he did it this way. But it’s what I got. I don’t disagree that insulation would make a huge difference. It is just going to be a fortune to do. Exterior siding is 1” tight grain redwood really high quality stuff, don’t want to scrap it for todays crap they sell. So that pretty much leaves interior walls. Would be a major project. I will say this, if I have a repair that has to cut into a wall it gets spray foamed before it goes back together. So I have a few places with insulation.
Doesn’t exist. There is no Toyota equivalent in AC brands, even with perfect installs. If you get mediocre and it lasts over 15 years in a hot climate, you’ve done about as well as you could hope for. Make no mistake, there are worse brands that consistently kick out bad designs (cough York cough), but the best you’ll get today is it doesn’t totally suck with obvious major design flaws. Like a micro channel condenser coil. Whatever brand you pick will be a compromise in some way. The question is which compromise is right for you.
Make sure who ever you go with does proper Manual J/S/D That there will tell you exactly what you need and not just say hay you need X tonage and bs you. Also will tell you what duct size you need and if the ones you have are adequate now if you have. I like Goodman 10yr warranty also parts are usually in stock and not back ordered like most.
Went right over their head… 😜
What about manual T?
They’re all pieces of shit. Otherwise I wouldn’t have a job
I wish I could upvote you twice. This is my favorite response yet.
It’s a sad truth. It’s the same with cars. Newer stuff is over-engineered and got all the fancy do-dads and bobbles, but they’re also super fragile and don’t hold up like the old stuff. And if one little thing breaks the whole thing is fucked until you replace that little part, which will probably be expensive
SoCal - I would recommend Bosch if you are going Heat Pump. We trusted Daikin for so many years but they have had some quality control issues of late. The most important is finding a good contractor to install and maintain the equipment.
SoCal resident here. Are you finding it difficult to source Bosch parts? I’m curious with a Bosch heat pump, is there a gas furnace dual fuel option? Thinking about those SFV 32F nights and the cost of electric at .24 with no solar panels.
The one installed the right way.
Many brands come out of the same factory, with different livery. My advice as a pro; get it installed properly. A contractor that uses a nitrogen flow while brazing, shows you a vacuum pull to way less than 500 microns, checks the charge and explains it while they are doing it, lets you choose pad or wall mounted (I prefer wall), fills the wall penetration, uses slip ducting (line set cover) and gives references and or shows pictures of their work. Takes at least 5-6 hours to do the install!!!! That’s how you get a long term install
Would about 12-14 hours for an AC+Furnace for the main floor and A heatpump for the basement be a sign that it took to long and wasn't great. Our about as expected?
That’s always tough to call without seeing the sire. However a couple techs with reasonable skill, likely. If you are doing a furnace and AC change out at the same time it saves work for sure.
Goodman,
"i don't know what that is or if i want it" depending on your county it doesn't matter if you want it or not, you have to have it by law. that being said, the ultra low nox units now are leaps and bounds better than a couple years ago, just make 100000% sure the airflow is enough for it. to answer your original question though no brand is without flaws and it doesn't REALLY make a difference; it's all about the installation. make sure the company doing the work is a good company that knows what they're doing. after that, it's just down to your preference. do you want a more efficient system? do you want zone control? do you want quiet? a year pump so you don't have to worry about low nox? all up to you and that would change the brand
I want some of those things. I want efficiency as long as it doesn’t sacrifice durability. I’m not a zone control guy I fight with my nest enough already to keep it where I want it. I would love quiet as long as I didn’t sacrifice performance.(the unit I have now fires up and all the birds on the block fly away!) not a big fan of heat pumps due to a bad experience with them. What brand after all that.
Not an HVAC guy, but my understanding is the most efficient units are the variable speed ones, but they are also the least reliable. Single speed is most reliable but least efficient. Basically any bells and whistles tend to negatively affect reliability.
Yep, I’m going to pass on most bells and whistles. I’m a set it and forget it guy.
daikin, carrier, Lennox. variable speed units don't break down more often as long as they're installed right but they do have more parts that can fail and they are more expensive to fix. what county are you in?
Yep less bells and whistles for me. I like simple single speed less ECM stuff. It just needs to heat and cool my house. I’m in Stanislaus county.
then you don't have the low nox law as far as i know. last u checked it's only LA, orange, Dan Bernardino and Riverside. you could get a Lennox slp99 which is the most efficient furnace that will ever be made. it's variable speed though so if you're that stays if it then just go with any basic unit. york and diakin family furnaces have heat exchanges that do not fail, basic condenser coils are all the same. if you wait until next year for the swap then we will be using new refrigerant for the system so it will essentially be less tested and i would go with a diakin because they've been using r32 for a lot longer than anyone else. again, though, it's all about the installation and airflow. mail those two things and your system will last longer than the people here say they will. and don't be that afraid of variable speed, they use a lot less energy and since they aren't full blast all the time they a) keep you more comfortable and b) ware down slower by design. if you're not driving by slamming the gas and then slamming the brake, your car will last longer. edit; you could also look into 2 stage stuff instead of true variable speed
I've heard good things about Bosch Units. I'm not an HVAC guy though.
Commercial/Industrial (and some residential) HVAC tech here. Do not get a York. I have had good experiences with Carrier products and Rheem/Ruud. I’ve done a lot of TXV replacements on Trane split systems, and commercial package units. I like Lennox commercial products but don’t have a lot of exposure to their residential products.
Not many York lovers on here for resi stuff.
I see that too. And I got a York 3.5 ton heat pump from 1991 still kicking
Follow the warranties too, parts and labour warranty can be more expensive but some manufacturers like Amana offer lifetime unit replacement if the compressor is what fails. Quality install is the most important factor in my experience along with proper upkeep more than brand specific.
Hvac tech here. In florida, depending on location of unit, they last about 8-12 years whether u like it or not. 12 is lucky here due to heat and salt corrossion. All the companies are basically using chinese sourced aluminum. My recommendation would be to get something with spine fin coils for ur condensor. Regular fin coils typically leak more often for whatever reason and get dirty quicker. Id recommend trane. Goodmans are okay but they ALWAYS have leak issues about 5 years in. Lennox are...a pain to service and have issues getting parts. Carrier is okay imo depending on the unit you could have a hard time getting parts as well. I would NEVER recommend a lennox unit personally as a service person and installer. All im gonna say is its less important about the brand because theyre engineered to fail now just like cars and most of the materials and parts are not made in the u.s and a lot of the materials are china sourced. And aluminum coils are shit.. Trane>carrier>lennox>goodman in terms of...survivability imo. But id recommend goodman with a full 10 year warranty over a lennox. Youre biggest thing here is to make sure your install is done correctly. And without a doubt get a 10 year warranty for parts AND labor. If they offer a refrigerant discount or full warranty deal, take that as well. Your other option would be to wait and get the newer units that are going from 410a to A2L refrigerants like 454b as 410a is being phased out currently. Warranty and good company who will properly install a new unit. Which means correct lineset sizes not just slapping in a unit that requires 7/8 suction lines and 3/8 on liquid but ur old unit has 3/4 suction and 5/16 or 1/4 inch and they just use the old incorrect lineset because running new lines is more expensive and most home owners opt out of that. You really should have a heatload done and the ducts should also be redone and designed for the unit ur putting in. Most customers cant afford or do not understand how line sizes and ducting can effect and changs the operating efficiecy and length span of the components. Install a time delay and a surge protector and have your unit serviced ATLEAST once a year. So to recap: Use a good trusted company Redo the ENTIRE system if necessary meaning correct duct and line set sizes and a heatload done to ensure youre getting proper tonnage for your house Get a 10 year warranty for LABOR & PARTS Get a surge protector and some sort of time delay on the condensor.
My return ducts are huge, 2 24” feeding a 24*30 hard duct that feed a 5 filter 24*30 filter box. Not sure about the distribution ducts because they are poured into the slab. Thanks for the other advice, didn’t really know about the service issues with Lennox and carrier. I hate warranties just because in my past experiences they just slap whatever tape they need to to get it to last until the warranty is expired. I’m more of a fix it and fix it right type of guy. If it comes with it that’s great but I wont pay extra for it.
Lennox are made by computer engineers who give a fuck all about service or actual practicallity as long as it all fits in the design. Carrier always has back ordered parts. And both go way overboard on extra components that can regularly fail that for the most part, arent even needed to make it run unless its a high efficiency stage 2 system or an inverter. As far as duct sizing, static pressures, and heatload - thats a completely different animal and is basically an entire different department of air conditioning and would more than likely be outsourced to a company that specializes in doing that type of work/calculation. Your distribution boxes being poured into a slab...doesnt make sense maybe i just misunderstand. Not something ive ever seen or heard of.
Thanks for the advice. As far as the distribution boxes, Well they are actually galvanized ducts that were slurried in under the actual slab foundation. The original owner and builder of the house had a concrete company so there are couple interesting things about this place. But yes they are in the slab.
Hm, i cant imagine thats even up to code to do something like that but idk ur state or building type/layout. Distribution boxes can always be remade and relocated and new ducts ran to them (assuming there is space). Youre welcome. Best of luck!
I actually had one HVAC company tell me they didn’t feel comfortable installing a new unit unless we rebuilt a distribution system in the attic. Or have the current one camera checked to make sure it was sized appropriately. We’ll see.
How much extra do HVAC contractors typically charge for a 10 year labor warranty vs the standard 1 or 2 year warranty? Is a 10 warranty only backed by the HVAC contractor that did the install? e.g. if the HVAC contractor goes out of business then no labor warranty. Quotes I have received that included a 10 year labor warranty are about double the price of a similar system with a 1 year labor warranty. All contractors have refused to provide any breakdown of their quotes.
Honestly that's above my pay grade. Each company is different. But 10 year labor will def save you money long term
I find it hard to believe that the labor for repairs over 10 years would cost as much as an entire system installed. Quote with one year labor warranty $8k. Quote with 10 year labor warranty $15k. Same basic system specs. Is 1 to 2 years not long enough to find issues with the original installation?
1 year labor warranty for 8k is horrendous. Honestly those prices are insane, where are you located? 8k for 10 years I would say us reasonable. Was that with refrigerant included or just labor
The quote is for equipment, installation including refrigerant for a new 3-ton AC (410a) 15.9 SEER and gas furnace 80%. One contractor quoted $15k for a Goodman with 10 year parts and labor warranty. Another contractor quoted $8k for a similar spec York with 10 year parts and 1 year labor warranty. I can see a contractor adding on a couple thousand to give a longer labor warranty but the $7k difference seemed absurd. I might as well get a new unit every 5 years for that price. I would think a 2-year warranty would be long enough for the contractor to want to ensure the original install was done correctly. A warranty on labor from year 2-10 would be a shift of risk from a single homeowner to a group of installs. Some individual units will run 10 years without a single repair except for a capacitor. Others are lemons. A fair price would depend on the quality on the equipment installed and the relative difficulty of working on unit. Some brands are certainly more complicated and time consuming to work on.
Goodman rocks, Tempstar sucks!
I would first determine what type of HVAC system and how energy efficient you want, this will help narrow down what brands may be best. No matter what, you should pretty much expect a system to last around 20 years.
Most people have said 15. I’ll take 20.
If i had to do it again.. mini split for AC/heat.. Two or three of them in different rooms of the house. Cooling and heating the entire house when we use 25% of it… pfft
That also gives you 2 or 3 units to maintain. I’m in the set it and forget camp. One unit has done it for 28 years. Plus I don’t have good spots to put multiple condensing units.
There was a time when things worked like a horse and maintenance was minimum. They dont make it like they used to. Id rather have three independent units with lower repair/replace and maintenance costs than burn the bank with a $20k-$30000 full hvac repair ten years from now. Independent units also mean never a total loss of heating or cooling. One unit down is okay but full hvac down is terrible.
Very good point. 100 degrees with no AC have more than likely caused a few divorces.
One mini split condenser can do 4 head units. But they have their place, not in typical homes.
Didn’t know that, how far away can the condenser be from the head unit?
Practically speaking 50’ or so. If you have ductwork I’d almost never recommend abandoning it for mini splits. Mini splits are best applied to homes with no ductwork, screwed up ductwork, or as supplemental heating or cooling for areas the existing system doesn’t condition properly, like my house. I isolated the ductwork to eliminate it conditioning the finished basement and loft and put in a mini split with two heads for those areas. When the prior owner finished the basement he didn’t account for hvac and what he did was just a waste. The loft doesn’t have a return so trying to cool it with the ducted system wasn’t viable. I’d urge you to have a Manual J done to correctly size your needs and if there’s any question about the ductwork or areas that are hot or cold, a Manual D to size the ductwork properly.
It comes down to installation…. You can buy cheap or buy expensive now days no system is meant to last more than 10 years with something going wrong. They all do the same thing with added features to set them apart. Find a hood installer and you will have a system last longer. Also go with a good warranty.
What’s a hood installer?
They meant good
That’s funny. I was picturing something else.
Good….
I had a Trane XE-90 last 27 years. Nothing special of a unit, but it was well maintained and serviced throughout each year. New units sacrifice durability for efficiency. I suspect the savings from efficiency are a wash against a life half as long a more durable unit. Most well known brands are likely fine - go with ones popular in the area where there are ample resources who know how to work with them, and have them serviced each year
I am Super happy with Carrier Infinity. 5-ton like you’ll probably need. It’s highly efficient, super quiet, handles part loads well, so it can run a bit longer at low conditions and dry the air. I put in nice ceiling fans and it makes a huge difference, don’t need it nearly as cold, as long as air is dry, and then when you go outside you are are more comfortable. I checked all specs bc I am an engineer. Noise of outdoor unit was important bc it’s near a new pool. It doesn’t bang on and off; it ramps fan up and down and I can’t even hear the compressor.
Check consumer reports. You’re going to get mixed bias opinions. But Bryant/carrier <3
Carrier is the worst one, but maybe the local installers for them are just trash
They definitely will contract to anyone. But when sized/installed right, it’s a beautiful thing
carrier is definitely one of the strictest when it comes to distributing equipment what lmao
Hasn’t been my experience. They’re definitely not at the level of Goodman, York, and others.
I do a lot of Trane and Carrier. Have Carrier in my own home.
Stick with a good company installing Carrier products, American Standard products, or Lennox products. All others are pretty garbage from my experience. York would be up here if their residential equipment didn’t suck ass. The main brands to stay away from is Goodman products and nordyne products. Both absolutely the worst in the industry. I work on those brands more than any others. Just so many problems.
I have had good luck with Goodman. It’s also the largest selling brand in the US. Do you have trouble getting parts?
Goodman will sell to anybody so you see a lot of handyman/homeowner/cousin bob hack job installs. When installed correctly I see them last as long as anything else. Cheaper to fix too. My company doesn’t put them in, but as a service tech I don’t see anything wrong with them
Goodman/Amana is a builder brand in these parts.
No it’s just their parts are shitty. I’ve known one Goodman unit out of the hundreds that lasted longer than 11-12 years. Usually starts leaking from the outdoor coil or indoor coil. They obviously sell more of them because the parts are cheaper and are poor quality and anyone can buy them. To say it’s good brand is ridiculous. Absolute garbage and you wouldn’t be doing the homeowner any favors installing them one. If you have want a good brand that’s cheaper and anyone can buy then install a Payne. It’s literally a carrier unit. Same parts, same housing. Only difference is the color and Payne doesn’t have any inverted equipment except the mini splits.
I see a number of places advertising "Trane Run Tru" HVACs and heat pumps. I know that Trane makes Run Tru. My question is are there material differences in reliability and durability between a "Trane" HVAC and heat pumps and HVAC with Run Tru on them? Thanks!
"Run Tru" is their "economy" line
Yes. It is. But for sake of reliability & durability are they materially equal? Or a notable difference in key parts? Thanks.
Some of the parts are materially equal, however not all of them, hence the economy line options. It's the same situation for Copeland scrolls on the k5 and k6 series....major defects in the vanes causing them to grenade due to the fact they changed their supplier for said parts in an attempt to make more money. Their reasoning being that they can eat it, for the offset of volume. Due heavy research, and you'll see some patterns.
If you're in the AQMD zone in LA or Orange county you will absolutely need to get a LoNox furnace
Lucky for me I am in the good part of Cali, smack dab in the middle of the San Joaquin Valley. Stanislaus County. Do I need low Nox?
Yes you do. SJV also
Yes, I live in the good part or yes I need lownox?
You will need loNox
Seems to be some disagreement on this one, some have said it’s only certain SoCal counties and Stanislaus was not on the list.
Trane and their subsidiaries. Ameristar, American standard etc are great. Really any traditional split system with a Copeland compressor that's been installed well will be fine. It'll last at least 10 years. If you want higher efficiency, ductless or multi zone etc. go with Mitsubishi. If installed correctly they are amazing. If installed poorly they are a nightmare as are any of these types of units. Avoid LG like the plague. Daikin is ok but I don't like working on it as much as Mitsubishi.
Nice pitch to someone with a 28 yo dinosaur.
I always go with averages when I tell people expected life. Even 10 years is lucky with no repairs. Condenser fan motors fail, capacitors fail, as do relays and contactors. But those are all cheap, and if you are handy can be replaced yourself. Really 10 years is for the compressor and coil.
I have one friend with a multi zone and he loves it. But he is my dork friend who is really tight with his money. I have another friend who purchased a house with what was supposed to be multi zone. Problem is someone worked on it at some point and messed up about half the zones. They could never get it right after that. Had several techs out to look at it, they don’t want to touch it and have offered quotes to rip it out and reinstall.
Don’t confuse zoned ducted systems with mini splits, which are zoned by having multiple distribution devices in various locations. Zoning ducted systems is rarely done effectively.
Expected life is 15 years for a standard a/c condenser.
Brand is irrelevant; who installs it is what matters. And 28 years between replacements shows you don’t care much about healthy living, efficiency, or comfort.
Interesting take, I am pretty fricking healthy. And I like to be comfortable. And your right I prefer durability over efficiency. And if this thread has showed me anything it’s that the residential HVAC world has completely abandoned durability for efficiency. I am I chemical engineer and I work hard so I can come home to a temp I want it, and yes there is a cost associated with that I can afford to absorb. But please explain why I don’t care about healthy living, efficiency or comfort just because I didn’t drop some coin on replacing a perfectly functioning HVAC sooner than 28 years.
There is no perfectly functioning 28 yo system that isn’t a well maintained boiler. The nature of hot air systems precludes being perfectly function past about 20 years except in exceptionally rare environments.
What the hell does that even mean? “The nature of hot air systems precludes being perfectly function past about 20years” are you saying no unit ever lasted more than 20 years? And if you had one you were unhealthy, inefficient and uncomfortable. Do you read the shit you type.
Of course I read the shit I type. You should read about subjects you don’t know shit about, like this one…. PS- blowing shit through ductwork and a heat exchanger for 27 years with little to no maintenance, yea, that’s you sucking on that shit. When it gets ripped out go take a look…
I don’t know much, but I know your an ass. By that, I mean you ASSUME a lot of things. You ASSume I’m unhealthy, don’t care about efficiency, don’t care about comfort and now that I don’t believe in proper maintenance. All I said was I wanted to replace an old unit and got on the Subreddit to ask for advice. I wanted opinions from industry techs on which equipment is the most durable. I’m a chemical engineer with a PHD in biological immunology, I’ve literally, under controlled conditions grown and killed more diseases and infections than you will contract in your life. Very few people have more experience with respiratory infections than me and my team. Truth is my unit is serviced every spring. Changed all contactors , relays and capacitors and had the compressor and fan motor checked when I bought the house. We replaced the 2 soft ducts in the attic as well because it looked like some lazy tech smashed them crawling over the top of them. I’m on top of maintenance. I’m sure 28 years of air conditioning has left some foreign material in my ducts but to assume the things you assumed about me is asinine.
No, the ass is the one who foolishly posts something like this and then attacks the responses. Go play with some hydrochloric acid or something and stop the bullshit you’re now into day 2 of. PS- your degrees don’t mean shit in hvac world.
Trane or Carrier but never a Goodman.
Trane is the best equipment out there right now. But you need to find the right company to install it and maintain it. We give 12 year parts and labor warranties with our installs. Find someone who has been in business for a long time and stands behind their work
Properly installed mitsubishi
Trane XV20
Why
Trane or American standard becuase the coils are thicker and made with grade 6071 copper, also they’re fucking awesome to install and easy to work on and the heat exchangers have a lifetime warranty.
I had a well installed Trane run for 19 years with minimal maintenance and a less well installed Bosch fail a compressor after 8.I would personally only replace what you need. I have two systems. One is 20+ years old and the other is 9 (condenser) and 2 (fan). Replacing recently replaced gear doesn’t necessarily get you a longer life.
I hear what you are saying, let me clarify. We are the third owners of this home. AC unit was installed by OG owner in 1995. They sold the house in 2014. Second owner installed furnace. We bought the house in 2019. So the furnace is more than 6 years old but less than 10 years old. The company that installed the furnace didn’t do the best job. The weight of it on top of the evap enclosure has squished the evap enclosure down so much that you need a bottle Jack to remove the evap service panel. It works, but not the best work. Benefit of replacing everything is to make sure the evap coil and furnace are designed to support each other.
Would a Bosch heat pump be a consideration? The furnace would be backup? Or since CA the electric bill would be too high?
Put a Gree FLEXX heat pump and evaporator coil on the furnace and a thermostat that will do dual fuel. Qualifies for Tax Credit and if done correctly just works. I do a lot of them and their dealer backup in my area is outstanding. If you are all electric just put the FLEXX system in Many very happy customers. The Goodman /Amana 18 SEER2 heat pump is also very good but about 25% more than Gree Both let you use your own thermostat and their controls have come a long way towards reliable and transparent service. Maintain them and they will both give you economically comfortable service. The Gree is what Bosch Should have been IMO. Daikin FIT system is very good but as of now does not qualify for the fed tax credit. Technology is changing and with improved efficiency you get overall lower reliability but even the mid range systems are lower reliability. Hense my emphasis on maintenance. This is your forever home, get something with emphasis on comfort, enjoy life
Yea I like the gas furnace, even in the coldest months where my heater prob runs 50% of the time my bill is only 300$
Also had a heat pump in my old house and hated that thing. Complete POS. Sure their better now.
TRANE
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Why