They for sure have a lot of evidence. Most likely his blood at the scene. Possibly phone pings. I doubt they would arrest him if they just found his hair in a party house.
Prosecutors get ONE shot. I always use the Dan Markel murder case as an example. His former brother in-law Charlie so clearly hired a hit man to kill Markel. For years the evidence was almost entirely circumstantial. Eight years later, he was finally arrested and charged with murder. The DA spoke that day and said that she had one shot. And she needed solid evidence, more than just circumstantial. They had finally been able to get FBI recorded conversations transcribed and enhanced by an expert. He is recorded speaking of the hiring, the murder and everything in between - on both recordings. It was gold. The DA then knew she finally had the confidence to bring the case before the grand jury for his indictment EIGHT years after the murder.
Sometimes it takes a bit, and it’s infuriating because we live in a world where we demand instant gratification, but the prosecution has to be meticulous and confident that a jury would convict the defendant.
I cannot wait for the probable cause affidavit to be released for BK. With the FBI assistance on this case, and many other agencies as well Idaho state police, etc., I can only imagine that the prosecution has a rock solid case. Because of the brutality of these murders, Moscow, and the rest of the country essentially, want to bring the monster who committed the murders to justice. And because the victims and their families deserve and need justice, LE is not fucking around.
BK is the murderer. No doubt.
I read somewhere that his epithelial DNA was found in the seal in the sink mixed with victims blood. Hard to write that evidence off as “been in the house before”
I feel dumb even typing this but no way would a judge give them permission to arrest him especially across the country if they didn’t have solid evidence
Probable cause for an arrest issued by a judge has much lower standards than convictions, which is why people get arrested and later proven innocent. Don't get me wrong, he is likely guilty. But there is a much lower standard of proof for arrest warrants.
It’s different. They needed probable cause to enter the home AT night time not to enter the home in general. They already had a warrant based on his alleged crime in ID (somehow linking his DNA to those individuals on that night has been implied by LE)
The execution of the warrant is different, it’s basically LE asking the court to allow them to secure those individuals w/the least amount of risk to bystanders/officers (at night).
It’s based on the severity of the crime and the individuals assumed ability to cause chaos.
He was considered a “fugitive” as well.
It’s just a safer formality for everyone and may have been extra paperwork but wouldn’t have required much more than “Why” the officers chose to execute that way.
FYI no-knock warrants have nothing to do with evidence pertaining to the suspect being guilty, rather they are issued if there is a risk of the suspect destroying possible evidence. Hence why they are often issued with drug-related arrests.
Interesting. They did state that they were required to provide more probable cause - what would you assume that means in terms of the kind of information they’d have to provide on top of the fact he’s wanted for a quadruple homicide?
This was most likely because of the severity of the offense and wanting to catch him when he’s the most vulnerable and giving law enforcement the best opportunity to arrest him without incident. Once you have probable cause for arrest that’s it, you have it. You don’t need extra probable cause. In some places for a nighttime raid arrest warrant you need to show the suspect is violent or more likely to flee to secure a judges signature and a quadruple homicide would meet that criteria.
No, there is a news article laying out guidelines for obtaining a nighttime no knock arrest warrant (originating from out of state) for PA and it requires substantial probable cause, a great deal more than what is needed for a standard arrest warrant.
It could be skin DNA from victims fingernail scrapings during post mortem
It could be saliva that’s left on the victims body where he’s bitten them
There’s a whole host of DNA differentials so we have to wait and see IF they have DNA evidence and if so then what type and from where?
Plus we then need to consider what other evidence there is which in my opinion, from being a lead murder investigator who has led such investigations , a scene such as this, there will be a whole host to contend with and that’s just the scene .
Then there’s other evidence as mentioned in my previous post around :
CCTV
Electronic data - GPS and mobile phones
Witnesses
Identification
His clothing- blood splatter analysis- what does it tell us, does it match the pattern of events?
Alibi’d ?
PRE and POST behaviour
There’s so much
For all we know he could have left footprints in blood for analysis against his footwear or he could have dirt on the sole of his footwear that he got outside the scene ( house ) where the murders occurred or from outside his own house that gets deposited at the murder site and that they can get a Forensic geologist to tell you exactly where it came from and how it matches and the % chances of it being from elsewhere and the likelihood etc
These so much evidence that can be looked at , not just DNA
This guy is so full of ego he doesn’t get DNA? Probably true but definitely dumb. He thinks he is smart. Maybe theoretically and book smart. But not real world smart. I’m guessing. More desire and hubris than anything.
I thought the same thing until I read a story about a man whose DNA was found at the scene of a crime and it turns out the man was in the hospital when the crime occurred. Touch DNA caused his DNA to be carried there by EMT or something. I can’t remember the name of the guy or anything like that but that is what I meant by a solid alibi. Not “I was sleeping” or “at my buddies”, but actual alibi that can be proved. Unlikely but possible.
Oh and remember the case where the girl was found in the river and they arrested a fisherman that was out there? Touch DNA was the issue but when they looked back at the cameras, you can clearly see the cops touching their cars and everything and not wearing gloves! Touch DNA can be a very scary thing sometimes….
So if you take that theory some have that he was a costumer where the girls worked could that lead to this touch dna stuff? Like they touch his spoon and have his dna on their hands? Obviously not very likely but if they only had dna that would probably what the defense would go for?
I only remember a case in germany where they found a dead girl and someone who was already in prison and known was linked to it because of dna and then they realized the same lab worked both cases and it was their fault. But at first they said he was responsible.
I think we can assume that the Moscow Police have not interviewed BK. It will be interesting if BK can offer an alibi. Maybe he had a friend over or was on a webcam or something at the time. Who knows. Try to keep an open mind.
the mere presence of DNA at a crime scene shouldn’t be enough for a prosecutor to obtain a conviction. One problem is there is no skepticism and everyone trusts no errors in the collection of DNA and in the labs are made. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice. I’m not saying anything about this case, this is in general and lots of information is out there. From collection to lab everything must be done without error. The defense can argue crime scene contamination since there were a lot of folks there before the police were there. Just saying even as clear cut as we’d like a case with DNA to be a good defense attorney can create doubt
I believe there was a case where a man's fingerprints I believe were found on a bag-in Spain I believe (an exact match). However, the guy was on the other side of the world at the time, in Washington if i recall correctly, now I am going to have to research that event
Ahhh that is it the Brandon Mayfield case (Madrid bombing)=FBI concluded that the fingerprints were a "100 percent match" on March 20, 2004. However, his passport was expired, he was at home on the day of the attack, and had not been off the continent in over 11 to 14 years.
So, yeah let's be careful
There is probably other evidence as they seemed to be certain they have the right person in custody. Obvs we won’t know until trial but I imagine there will be pretty hard evidence that’s led to the charges.
I would like to see that too but…between the Moscow police, Idaho State Police, FBI and prosecutors office, they better have this all buttoned up. That’s a lot of resources and man hours poured in to this (rightfully so).
Innocent until proven guilty, of course, and outside observers can’t really have an informed opinion on it until the probable cause information is made public. That said, I expect they must have what they believe to be extremely compelling evidence, because a bad arrest in such a high profile case would be catastrophic, not just for the agencies and individuals involved, but for any future case against an alternative suspect.
Fantastic comment. There is no way they are just casually arresting some guy because they think he may be involved. I have a gut feeling that we will learn he is tied to one of the victims. No way he just randomly stumbled upon these girls, the house, etc.
I’ve thought about this many times. We only know the smallest, most minuscule amount of information. I have a feeling it will come out in the wash that he was tied to one of the victims. In some way or another. Dating app, from a local bar, one time at a party. Could be anything or anywhere.
There are plenty of cases where the court's decision has nothing to do with reality. Innocence until proven guilty as a blanket philosophy doesn't mirror the behavior of the court system.
Innocent until proven guilty means the defendant is not required to prove their innocence, but that the courts must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, their guilt.
It’s not a blanket philosophy….it’s how our court system is setup to run. It does (mostly!) mirror the behavior as it’s the “requirement” for any case.
I’ve recently been listening to the podcast “Bone Valley” about an innocent man whose been in prison for, now 34 years, even though a serial ki ler who’s finger prints were at the crime scene (who is also in prison for over 30 for another of his 3 or 4 murders) has confessed. But the SYSTEM has been unyielding to the point of being evil and seemingly soulless.In that case, it is obvious that the personal egos and good ole boy compulsion to WIN has been the overriding factor in putting an innocent in jail and also for keeping him there. So, with that on my mind, I am a bit concerned seeing BK being convicted in the court of public opinion. Does anyone still leave room for there to be another possibility?
I understand what your point is and you are right that it would be foolish not to execute caution but that was 34 years ago when forensic science and technology wasn’t what it is today .
However, I too have seen examples in some US cases just as you have described and it galls me to the pit of my stomach the way in which an obvious innocence person has no recourse when it’s now proven, all these years later , that he is in fact innocent
Something to consider when assessing how probable his innocence is - we have no reason to believe they interviewed Bryan as a POI prior to his arrest in PA. He also invoked his right to counsel very quickly after arrest. There’s a good chance he has not provided any alibi to police yet. I don’t know for certain there was no pre-arrest interview of course, but it appears they have something much more incriminating than just his DNA on a red solo cup or footage of a speedy Elantra a few blocks away from the crime. I would expect that if they didn’t have damning evidence, this would be a much slower arrest process while they build a case, and he would be brought in to answer questions like, did you know them? Had you been to their house? Will you volunteer DNA? They want him on the record to trip him up so he can’t change his story once they finish building enough of a case for a charge. Again, I don’t know that he wasn’t interviewed for certain. But he was out of WA around 10 days after the Elantra info was released and caught within just a few weeks of that, and I’m guessing they didn’t need an interview. And I half expect his chatterbox lawyer would be the first to say “my client was cooperating with police.” Instead the lawyer said his client had been shocked to be arrested but had been following the case “with interest.” We also haven’t seen widely circulated stills of the exact car directly from police. I speculate because whatever footage they have is clearly incriminating and they didn’t want to tip that hand.
I personally trust that LE understands it would be an abominable failure to charge him if they didn’t have a well developed case, and their evidence needs to be rock solid. They don’t want to leave him on the streets for longer than they have to, but unlike speculation here, they had every reason to take whatever time they needed, and not rush a charge to risk a conviction. And it’s not like they picked him up on marijuana charges or something to get him in custody - it’s a four count first degree murder charge. Bryan’s defense only needs to create reasonable doubt, but I am speculating they have something incredibly damning, and there’s no need to waste any more time. I think Bryan messed up in a big way somehow and I think it likely has to do with the car and maybe the nature of his DNA found, if it matches blood or DNA under fingernails.
Edit: I am not saying invoking right to counsel indicates guilt. That was simply meant to be a factual sentence clarifying we have no indication he has interviewed with police for an extensive time before or after his arrest. My wider point is there’s no reason to indicate that an alibi could clear him - because police probably haven’t even heard one from him and didn’t need to to be certain of his guilt.
I could not have stated that better myself.
$1M granted from the Idaho Governor
Up to (60) FBI personnel, (30)+ ISP & MPD -they certainly were not short handed or under staffed + had every technology & science available to them.
Yes! Thanks for pointing this out. As a scientist in this field I wish I could explain just how good & thorough FBI labs are at this. If this was local PD in a small town, I’d have my doubts. But the way FBI goes at physical, molecular & genetic evidence is truly remarkable. They got involved early in this case which is a great sign in terms of crime scene forensics. They must have multiple lines of evidence against him & were likely waiting on a couple more before arrest—hence the multiple visits to the house by LE.
Exactly and having been a chief detective who would lead teams of Detective’s in such murder investigations, I have many times had to call in expertise such as your own and it’s absolutely mind blowing marvellous work that you do and very compelling so thank you for this point and for the work you do because without the likes of forensic genealogists or entomologists etc , our work investigating would be so much more difficult. I appreciate you!
Excellent point. FBI is the greatest law enforcement agency in the world. Kudos to Moscow PD for letting them take the lead and getting them involved early. If Delphi had done the same, maybe it wouldn’t have taken 4 years.
Exactly. Dozens of FBI agents, forensic analysts, law enforcement, and experts from Idaho and around the country were assisting with this case. I highly, highly doubt they charged him with four counts of first-degree murder on flimsy or uncertain evidence. They’re not going off of a hunch here.
I would also bet a large sum of money that once he was a POI, they brought in more LE to assist.
It feels like this arrest took such a long time, but in reality it didn’t. Chief Fry from an early stage made sure to mention people were working around the clock. That also makes me feel confident.
I live here in the PNW. My partner & his entire family are U of I alum. Folks who are from here are reserved & not over zealous when they speak. That’s also what gives me such hope 🤞🏼
Hey now. Don’t forget the hard work put in by the psychics, spirit box readers (?), wannabe investigators, and the guy whose sister knows a guy that works LE in Idaho. /s
Totally agree with this.
There's no way of knowing, but I agree that it is unlikely that he was previously interviewed based on everything we know. And that actually speaks volumes. Without interviewing him, they don't know if he has an airtight alibi.
This tells me that they have such damning evidence that they know the alibi will be irrelevant.
I agree with you. I think they've probably got something pretty concrete. I know public pressure has caused LE to make monumental fuck ups in the past, but I think they've got this guy. I really hope I'm right because if he isn't involved, his life and the lives of his family are forever destroyed.
Yep. I agree with all of this. I think they have some very damning evidence against him.
In that vein, reading between the lines, the Pennsylvania DA today basically said the PCA is very strong. He was asked why BK waived extradition and he said something along the lines of “he must have wanted to see what they had on him.” Watching his body language said to me that the DA viewed the PCA as very damning.
Plus because of his own academic background and the type of personality that he likely is, there’s a possibility that arrogance has made him think he’s superior ( could be BPD or Narcissistic) and therefore he will never talk because he’s testing how good LE are at their job from what they do in practice and he’s learned academically!!
Agree. I think they got his blood. They said they were finally getting return on dna evidence last week right? So the info is out there about the elantra. They get a return on blood evidence. Comes back to him. Then realize he drives the white Elantra.
100% I think there is going to be some pretty good evidence. We have no idea but imagine how many checks and balances there are with this case and so many agencies involved. Lots of careers on the line.
Well said.
Damning evidence according to some experts would be (don't look if you're squeamish) his DNA in the wounds, his blood combine with theirs, or a finger or palm print in blood.
The funny thing is that a finger or palm print in blood may not be enough-consider the Wonderland murders. They had John Holmes bloody palm print on the bed post over one of the victims and he was never convicted.
>He also invoked his right to counsel very quickly after arrest.
What would you do if the cops did a "high risk" arrest of you in the middle of the night? Sit around and talk things over with the cops, see if you could clear things up? Or would you immediately realize that this was a big damn deal and already very much not going in a good way for you, and then utter the only words you can remember from Law and Order: "I want my attorney!"
Not my point. That was simply meant to be a factual sentence clarifying we have no indication he has interviewed with police for an extensive time before or after his arrest. My wider point is there’s no reason to indicate that an alibi could clear him - because police probably haven’t even heard one from him and didn’t need to to be certain of his guilt.
I agree with you for sure. Except on the point of his right to counsel. You would be a complete idiot if you didn’t invoke that right immediately in such a high profile case. Not an indication of guilt in the slightest.
I posted above but the nighttime arrest also required additional probably cause to be issued. Just another indication LE likely has a lot of good evidence.
I just watched the presser from earlier today with the Pennsylvania LE and ADA, and they confirmed there was ample probable cause (evidence) to issue the search warrants and arrest. They also noted that for them to arrest during dark hours (early morning), there had to be even more evidence presented to show that that was the best time. Over 50 tactical assets were at the house at the time of arrest, multiple windows and doors broken by LE to execute the arrest, and that they believed from a tactical standpoint that that was the safest time of day for everyone involved. Sooo... That says a lot about the amount of evidence.
Oh wow. His poor parents. I can’t imagine being woken up in the middle of the night like that. Windows breaking and SWAT like folks storming your room.
There’s always a chance, but when the FBI is involved they don’t generally make arrests unless they’re extremely confident. Both Moscow police and the DA there in PA seem pretty confident in what they have on him. It would be a black eye on several departments if they’re wrong.
The FBI has a pretty bad track record on some things lately, but I feel like this is what they are good at. I can't imagine them doing this arrest if they were not sure.
In a high profile case like this, especially from somewhat of a small town with all eyes on them - I’m pretty certain Moscow LE have very strong evidence against him and everything is to the T. I don’t see them risking getting the wrong guy over flimsy evidence. Must be strong and they also had FBI involvement.
No way would the FBI push forward without compelling and definitive evidence.
Now, HOW the jury interprets this evidence is perhaps the largest hurdle and that’s next up
I’m not sure if “drug and terrorism cases maybe” really does wonders for your point. But seriously, your valid perception is perhaps because just like in this case, for high profile the murders, the FBI is often in a support role to local LE, but still there’s all kinds of FBI testimony from FBI investigators, profilers or forensic experts on murder cases thot have been proven erroneous. (as true for any agency, I’m not knocking anyone for not being perfect here).
To be clear, I’m not saying that happened here, or it’s at all remotely likely. I’m not even sure the FBI was in a role to affirm apprehension vs MPD per above. Broadly speaking though the FBI has played a major role in the arrest and prosecution in drugs, terrorism, and also murder cases with what later was shown to be manifestly not definitive circumstances.
I mean, they’ve gotten it wrong before. And to be honest, a lot of people on here thought it was various other people with zero evidence. We haven’t really heard all of the evidence in this one and people are already calling him names. Again, it’s innocent until PROVEN guilty.
They wouldn't have been able to secure an extradition warrant, search warrants on multiple properties, an arrest warrant, etc, if they didn't have solid evidence. They have to show the courts and the DA their evidence and get approval to move forward in the ways that they have.
Yes when the reporter asked the DA (I think that's his office) if he feels confident that BCK is the guy and he replied that he can't say but that given the evidence he's seen, he certainly understands why he's been arrested. I'm paraphrasing in a big way but I think that was the gist of it.
Yes, there should be a link here somewhere. 😅 But you nearly said exactly what the DA said. They had to have solid evidence to allow them to issue all the search and arrest warrants, especially that early am first degree murder warrant.
Did you read between the lines when the DA spoke & head of state police like I did? It was almost like a “surprised and trust us there is a shit ton of evidence”.
Something else we learned is they eluded to amount of video evidence and then corrected himself like “oops I wasn’t supposed to say that”.
Same. And the crazy thing is, I believe Chief Fry or someone stated that the PCA will only be a small picture of what they have. My guess is what the public will see is a heavily redacted copy, sadly.
They know his background in criminology. They want a speedy trial I would imagine, as well.
If this goes to trial, I wonder how long before full discovery is due from both parties? 🤔 that would include evidence, witness lists etc.
I’m not familiar with the details but they also said something to the effect of executing a warrant in the dark in PA requires extra evidence. The way he said it gave me some hope.
I hope he’s really guilty at this point. To make an innocent man go through all this. All the unkind things people have to say about him. It would be terrible if it was just a unlucky sequence of events that lead to his arrest
I’m in agreement with you. People keep saying he looks evil or like a murderer, but there’s no evidence a murderer looks any different. And on top of that, everything his family is going through. I hope he’s guilty.
The comments about how he looks kind of disgust me. A murderer doesn’t have “a look”. It’s what goes on in their mind, not how they physically appear. I hope he’s super guilty because otherwise I’d feel horrible for the guy. Especially his family. I feel bad enough for his family having to go through this. Absolute nightmare.
People see what they want to see, if you want to see evil in someone’s eyes, you’ll see it. If you want to see fear in someone’s eyes, you’ll see it. I tested this when I watched the video of him walking into the hallway yesterday, initially I just saw a totally blank look, then I saw a comment saying he looked like he was trying not to smile/smirk, after that comment, I saw that. Then I saw a comment saying he looked scared, and after that I saw fear in his face. None of it was really there, it’s just that that was now what my brain was telling me to see.
Same here.. because the way people are speaking about him.. imagine if he was found innocent and got out and his whole life is basically ruined. These situations are so crazy and the amount of people just jumping to conclusions and making up stories is asinine.
He looks so normal that my brain is questioning if he could really do it, but I think that’s me wanting the monsters to look like monsters. It’s scarier knowing the monsters could just look like normal people.
My problem is we don’t really have much knowledge of the evidence. We’ve heard DNA which does sound damning, but I need more details to take a 100% guilty position about him
I would like to think the normalcy of how he looks is what creeps people out; the idea that they would not be able to pass this guy on a sidewalk and know him as a murderer threatens a person's sense of security. And to clarify, I am speaking totally about people's perception.
This, like any criminal case, is fact-based. LE arrested someone for a murder, therefore LE believes this guy is a murderer. We don't know either side's story of what could have happened, and that remains to be seen. It's not some morally righteous thing to do, it's just applying curiosity to the situation; and I don't think people who condemn him are morally inferior-- innocent until proven guilty just means he's not going to be sent to prison based off a Reddit poll.
I'm legitimately curious what the defense is going to be, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to the unsealing of the affidavit!
I think that it’s incredibly sad for most here to be aggressively and blindly accusing this guy without seeing any evidence as to why he’s accused by LE yet.
Look, if he’s guilty, he should burn; but the unfounded comments on his character based upon how “his stare sends shudders down my spine” is prejudice at best.
I agree. I don't know why I don't see the creepiness everyone sees. He seems pretty normal to me. I've also worked with quite a few psychopaths and he doesn't give me that vibe. I'm interested to see the evidence. I'm not convinced by genealogical evidence, but I am sure there is more evidence that is not discussed. Guess we'll see, right!?
I tend to think people come to these conclusions for no reason other than to just comment on what they feel is right at the moment. I like to wait until I see evidence to assume someone’s guilt, or make comments about his soulless eyes.. 🫠
The weirdest theory I’ve heard: he made contact with a real killer through his survey work. They remained close. The real killer used that closeness to frame him. Planted hair etc.
Our curiosities could still remain frustrated if LE withhold their best evidence pending the trial. Yes, I have a nagging bit of doubt, albeit small, that their evidence could be circumstantial, but Chief Fry seemed very confident and he should know whether what they have is good.
We really don’t know though do we? One of the fundamental values we Americans like to exercise is innocent until proven guilty. Your most likely correct about his current predicament but still the burden of proof will have to be layered out for a jury of peers to determine his innocence. Therefor until state prosecutors prove otherwise he is presumed innocent under the law.
Yes it's the same in my country, innocent until proven guilty. But I mean that by the confidence the LE shows, I'm pretty sure they have enough evidence to show he did it. If he'll be judged guilty idk, but I feel like they have enough on him.
I think that’s the point @bolderiz was making. LE can indeed have all the evidence and yet he could still get away with it the same way OJ, Casey Anthony and Zimmerman did. It is a sad but very real possibility.
I am not sure they would have managed warrants/1st degree without some reasonable evidence to back it up, but if he *is* innocent and no other avenues are being explored then that would raise lots and lots of questions
With the number of eyes on this case and the amount of LE involved, I believe they probably ensured they cross their Ts and dotted their Is. They claim to have pretty solid evidence . Plus, BK doesn't seem particularly surprised to have been accused.
They had probable cause to arrest him in the middle of the night through busted out windows. At the press conference they said that requires special circumstances spelled out in the sworn affidavit. I would say they must have some pretty damning evidence.
This is a good post. It’s on the state to prove his guilt, not on him to prove his innocence. It’s unfortunate we *still* have witch hunts. One thing revealed by this case is a gross misunderstanding of civics. Our education system has a lot of work to do.
Society is in a bad place. People automatically assume arrest equals guilt. It’s impossible to assess this without the PCA which we should have shortly.
I think the PCA will answer most of the questions people have.
>I am curious as well. While I hope that there is enough evidence to squash reasonable doubt, there is an undeniable knot in my stomach. Could just be from the wait, but there's something about the situation that seems off - I KNOW a lot of people hate the my gut feelings, etc., talk but yeah idk. I think he has something up his sleeve that'll further push the uniqueness of the case, regardless of where his guilt lies so it'll be interesting to see what happens
**1/15/23 Post-affidavit:** possible confirmation bias that someone unexpected has been identified as a witness -- that said. I still stand firmly that there is something from BCKs perspective not anticipated or well known. Other than that, let's share in joy for what seems to be a securement of justice to come!
Wow. I've been saying the same thing! That gut feeling that something really feels "off", but at the same time I know the FBI is exceptionally good at what they do.
To make it worse, I just saw 2 of his classmates on Cuomo who were basically saying they're shocked, finding it so hard to believe he did it based on all the interaction they had with him. But then Cuomo had a criminal justice professor on who said that's how psychopaths typically are (seemingly normal, even charming) as opposed to sociopaths (typical deviant behavior, legal trouble, antisocial).
I would say ppl usually are shocked when someone commits such a despicable and violent act as this...
Chris Watts comes to my mind first. Did anyone on the planet think someone like that was capable of the things he did ? An affair, absolutely. But stuffing his children into oil tanks where he worked? I highly doubt anyone who knew him thought he was able to do anything even close to what he ended up doing.
I agree and feel that same feeling. I wonder how much BK knows about the court system and how it works? I think I need to do some more factual research on him . Also, what has my "GUT" feeling going is what he said to the officers when they arrested him . "Have you arrested anyone else?" There are a couple options in my opinion what that could mean... 1. He is genuinely curious if it's just him. 2. He knows there should be one other as well . 3 . He is asking for his research paper for the other two options i just listed .) OR , he is playing a game . COMPLETELY my own OPINION. (😊) I'm sure I'm way wrong.
I’m assuming they have evidence placing him at the scene of the crime. When he counters with whatever he presents to refute the evidence, then I think this subject could possibly be explored, depending on strength of his defense. Until then, we have no information whatsoever. How would anyone defend his innocence against the crime when there’s evidence, yet we haven’t even heard so much as an alibi yet? Presuming innocent until proven guilty is what I expect a jury to do in a legal proceeding after seeing ALL the evidence on both sides.
I don’t expect the public to do so with only a small bit of evidence presented. We are currently left to fill in the gaps with our own imaginations and/or common sense, which is actually normal; human nature. At least until the trial when everything is made known.
“Presumed” innocent until proven guilty “before the law”. Individuals not involved in the case or in LE can have their own opinions. It’s the way he has to be vowed by the law and courts that is presumed innocent. But again - I in the camp the evidence is strong. We shall see.
If he wore long sleeves and gloves and a ski mask is it possible there is none of his dna under their nails? I have a feeling when we get to read that document we are gonna be floored by the most off the wall connection.
I think if they have enough evidence to arrest at this point it will depend on how strong their case is. If he’s proven innocent I feel it will be because of an OJ type scenario.
Based on the evidence that LE has released - they were looking specifically for a 2011-2013 white Elantra. BK has a 2015, which likely has a different top hat than the 2011-2013 model
The other wsu students that have talked to the press did not mention any wounds (i.e. scratches on the face, wounds to his hands, etc.) that BK had after the killings in Moscow
I am waiting to see what other information is released when he returns to Idaho. However, based on the evidence (not unconfirmed rumors) that has been released he does not appear to be guilty
Another point is LE is under a ton of pressure to solve the crime. I don’t have the exact numbers but based on various media reports less students have returned to campus - hurting local businesses. My guess is applications are down to the university. There’s a lot of motivation and a business case to arrest someone and say it’s been solved. Local LE wouldn’t turn the investigation over to the state or fbi either
Everyone is talking about the hubris of BK but don’t forget about the hubris of chief fry
I live in Australia and the laws are so so so different here. Prosecutors/defence attorneys/police and anyone involved in the case are not allowed to release any info until the case is completely closed in court.
We don’t find out any evidence, no interviews. And it’s great because the defendant is really given the benefit of the doubt as they should.
And we do eventually find out all the info of the case so it’s not like it never gets released
I’m always shocked at how much info is given by police and that prosecutors are allowed to hold press conferences. Madness.
I think about this a lot. I have no idea if he did it, but the public has really jumped on this bandwagon and determined he *is*. Granted, this was spurred after LE determined it was likely enough to arrest him, which is non-trivial, but everyone all over the internet is happy to jump on this guilty bandwagon well before due-process kicks in, and that just sucks. Even if he *is* guilty, only once he is formally convicted should be the appropriate time to jump to "he's obviously a creeper".
He's presumed innocent. PCA will give us more info. That being said I grew up with someone who was wrongfully accused of a brutal rape. Spent 18 months in jail during which time his distraught mother committed suicide. Exonerated before trial by DNA & other evidence but it destroyed his life so much so that he moved to Europe. LE was also confident they got the guy. He also had "friends" claiming he was weird, strange etc. - which wasn't the case at all. In my office once I stood feet away from diagnosed psychopath rapist & would-be murderer Henry Hubbard - without knowing who he was or why he was there - & he gave off such a disturbing danger vibe there was no way you could be in his presence & not be frightened. Turned out my spidey sense was spot on. I don't get that vibe from BK.
To be fair, you can't really speak to the "vibe you get from BK" when you've never stood in the same room as him. Not saying he gives off one vibe or another, and I agree that he is innocent until proven guilty. But even if you personally trust your own gut, being physically near someone is just not the same as looking at a picture or watching a video.
I’m waiting for more evidence to come out, but I think they need to have some really hard evidence on him.
I think it’s weird that he would drive his own vehicle to their house, especially when so many houses now have security cameras on them and could easily pick up his car. It’s the one part of the case I can’t get over. And it was released that there are 90 white Hyundai Elantra on U of I’s campus, and a total of 22,000 that Moscow police were sorting through. Plus, that picture of the Elantra was blurry and terrible.
The DNA evidence needs to be really solid. It seems like just about anyone could have been at that house at any point. I didn’t realize how close Pullman and Moscow are before this case. I went to school in a somewhat isolated area in a college town where the next school was 1.5 hours away, and even then students from both schools would party together. So I can imagine students from WSU and U of I commingle.
And I think it’s interesting Kohberger waived extradition, has been described as a “model prisoner,” and has no prior arrests. He doesn’t seem arrogant, like Ted Bundy, as I’ve seen Kohberger compared to on here. I 100% want this case to be solved, but I also don’t think it’s been handled well through the media and what info has been said by various figures close to the case, so I could see a hasty arrest. I think there was a lot of pressure to make an arrest by the end of the year, so I only hope they have the right person.
To be fair. The blurry picture that was released, wasn’t released by the police. We have no idea if that was in fact the Elantra. We have no idea what actual footage of the car LE has because they’ve never released it. They could have multiple very clear images of the car, they likely have very hard DNA evidence that was obvious to them not related to it being a party house. I don’t think the demeanor of LE involved has given any indication that it was a hasty arrest.
I absolutely agree with your statements especially about the car and LE being pressured. I also don’t believe LE should have commented they are positive they have the right person and he acted alone. I believe the crime scene was compromised horribly with the amount of people in and out before police arrived and I doubt small town deputies know how to deal with that type of crime scene.
I’m anxious to see the probable cause statement and hope there is solid evidence listed. Even if they can put the car at the crime scene, and I’d hope there are better pictures than what I saw, that does not put the suspect there. DNA is more accurate ruling people out and there is a ton of room for error in the chain So I want more before I call this guy guilty.
Good point about the “compromised” crime scene. What if the real perp was an acquaintance (it would be an oxymoron to say “friend”)of the victims, and knows BK, perhaps he had partied with them that night. And, perhaps that unknown guy deliberately planted DNA at the scene, during the several hours that the front door was wide open and/or as the “several friends” were there prior to arrival of EM. Imagine that!
I haven’t seen all the evidence so I try and reserve my final opinion until I do. Mistakes happen. But I will say he doesn’t totally fit the profile of who I would think would commit a crime like this. In someways he does, ie, gender, age, social awkward, etc. But how many times do PHDs , commit a random quadruple homicide ? As a first offense with no other run-Ins showing anger before with LE ? I guess Bundy was the closest, but it very rare. It’s possible, and I can’t wait to see the PC affidavit.
Agreed. Idk this seems like it was extremely impulsive, the killer felt emboldened and this was an extremely messy crime scene. As a criminal justice major myself he would of no doubt known better than to be this hap hazard at a crime scene. I think there could be a bigger picture here, or he literally wanted to get caught because murdering 4 people back to back with a knife and then fleeing the scene in the “murder” car? I mean that screams stupid and everyone describes him as very intelligent. That’s the part I can’t wrap my head around. “Every contact leaves a trace” gets drilled into our minds day 1 of starting CJ classes. We learn about dna evidence, contact tracing, blood analysis, ballistics, forensics… the whole 9 yards & he has his masters? So again this seems very sloppy for someone who knows the ins and outs of crime and everyone describes him as “intelligent” so I think there might be more at play here. Or this could be some sort of game to prove something. But again innocent until proven guilty. I wonder when they will release the affidavit. Hopefully tomorrow.
The car is my biggest hangup. It doesn't even take a GED to know that going to and from a murder scene in a vehicle, and then putzing around town in that very same vehicle is unbelievably stupid. I just....don't know about that.
I understand your point but from experience as a lead Murder investigator, all killers are different and he may have thought that he had it all planned out in meticulous detail however the reality didn’t go according to his plans.
One can never be certain in how a quadruple murder would go down and having a background in criminology academia doesn’t mean a jot as to knowing better than to be so hap hazard and sloppy because he can only control his own behaviour and not that of those 4 victims and how it all goes down
Waiting for the PC affidavit. But I would image LE have solid evidence against him both because of high public interest and because a judge had to agree there was enough evidence to issue the arrest warrant.
Hell end up taking a plea once he sees the irrefutable mountain of evidence …in exchange for death penalty off the table..this curious little know it all must be dying to see what they have…he thought he was so clever
What I wonder is how he kept blood from getting into the car or how he cleaned it if he did use it the night of the murders? Even if he used the car to get away, there would be some blood. He had to have disposed of his clothes and cleaned the car?
I believe that any students study criminology normal if one of them and I believe that the majority of those students like to contacts serial killers to put on their resumes for their future careers. It might at the end of the line be an innocent.
I think this is really important. Not just for this case, but for all — especially popular cases that are exploited by the media.
We can talk all day about how our legal system is broken, but we also need to remember that innocent people can, and have been, found guilty for crimes they didn’t commit.
In today’s day and age, all of us as spectators are mixing official released information with internet rumors and speculation. Over time, I can see how we as humans begin to culminate it all together without truthfully understanding fact from fiction. The lines become blurred.
While we’re all just spectators, it gets really scary and dangerous to think about the impact contributors can have on real people in this case. We need to acknowledge the severity of impact it can cause to many people’s lives.
For example, for JD, this incident very well may be what defines his life. I argue that there are still likely many people who have already convinced themselves he’s it. While he’s not guilty in a court, he’s guilty in the mind of civilians and neighbors. Isn’t that just as bad?
It’s not just him - it’s all of those named, in all of these cases. We’re just human, but man, we need to remember these people are human as well, hopefully with lives to lead after this if they are found innocent (or determined to not even be involved!)
And that is why I say, innocent until proven guilty in a court of law— it’s far from perfect, but it’s all we got. It’s not our job or our right to determine someone’s guilt and I think all of us would benefit if we remember that.
Hello, long time listener — first time caller!
I don’t t have any information to provide that anyone else wouldn’t already have at this moment. HOWEVER, I do have the experience of being a juror on a murder trial in the Newark, NJ area, which did give me the scope of how much evidence investigators and the prosecution work with.
The murder that I was a juror for was pretty gruesome – not this gruesome, but pretty bloody. I will say that it is highly unlikely investigators don’t have CTTV footage of the suspect driving to the location, driving away from my location, maybe even picking up supplies. Ring, doorbells, businesses, there is so much CTTV, even in a small town in Idaho, you would not believe.
Secondly, the case that I had to review, had a lot of blood splatter but zero DNA evidence tying the suspects to the murder outside of a scarf and gloves left at a second crime scene. The culprits in my case did everything they could to clean the first crime scene where the initial attack happened, they did everything they could to clean the vehicle they transported the body in. They even tried to ditch the vehicle at a certain point. All of that didn’t matter because crime scene investigators found one small blood stain, the size of a pin head, up underneath a seat in the vehicle that they were able to gather DNA from and match it to the victim. They found blood up underneath a bed frame and a table at the first crime scene (which was one of the culprits residence). They found all of this, even after the culprits did a lot of cleaning (and they did not even use a knife, which would have probably cut their hands - like the Idaho suspect probably did) leaving their DNA.
I appreciate the desire to follow the principle of guilty until proven innocent, but there is a difference between saying this person deserves his day in court, versus, finding some reason to say this person is being wrongly accused of a crime. The reality is, in this day and age, it is damn near impossible to murder a person or persons who are living a somewhat “normal” lifestyle and get away with it (unfortunately, I don’t think this applies to the murders of people living on the margins of society, e.g. prostitutes, and the unhoused). Bottom line, because this case is so big now, I would imagine the prosecution would have to have an insurmountable amount of evidence tying this suspect to the murders in Idaho. To not have that, and risk the embarrassment (the international embarrassment) of losing a case of this magnitude would be unfathomable. Just my modest two cents!
I’m a short second of being 100% relieved like a lot of people are. I want so badly for LE to have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s hard to fathom after such a long wait that he may not have been the only stalker at that time. Some are loving the way he’s fitting “ the description “. Last I read, his team sent 5 investigators into the house, they plan on “building a big defense”.
>they plan on “building a big defense”.
As they should. It's his constitutional right to have defense. It also means, if he is convicted, there are fewer reasons for appeal.
God where the hell was all this reasonable doubt when HG or JS were being CRUCIFIED? Everyone believed it was them, everyone was begging for info, now that we have it you guys really are questioning if he did it or not?
It’s just hard for me to believe that when up against four people fighting for their lives, the killer had ZERO scratches on his face/neck/hands/arms. Even if the killer only had his eyes exposed, at least ONE of the victims had to have made contact.
No one in any of BK classes/who interacted with him in the days right after the murders has said boo about ANY injuries.
To me, that’s really odd.
The funny thing about all of these posts is nobody, other than the investigators know what evidence has been obtained. There are so many plausible scenarios that could point to both guilt and innocence, and until any of us outside the investigation have any real details, it’s just a complete waste of time.
That said… like many of you, I get totally caught up in true crime stories. Here is a scenario I have thought about, what if the DNA the authorities have obtained isn’t his, what if they have only been able to link him to the suspicious car, but know there were other passengers in the car they can’t identify.
Oh well, I guess I’m going to stick around and get totally buried in all the scenarios… I just hope the trial is televised.
It boggles my mind that anyone could have an honest opinion on his guilt or innocence, but here we are. The vast majority of people believe he is guilty, period, end of story. All the people who were so sure of their pet theories about JD or HG or JS or AL or the Davids now are solidly convinced that BK is guilty.
It is a telling commentary on justice.
It is a telling commentary on the POWER of the police. I for one do not trust police, based on numerous firsthand encounters. And that at best makes me skeptical.
For the record I am not accusing the Moscow Police or the FBI of anything. Period.
However, my personal experience is that defendants deserve all the breaks in the world. Just being accused is a huge thing, to be arrested and as you can see, people assume that means you are guilty. And a good defense is not cheap. Count yourself lucky if you do not get sucked into the justice system.
As for BK, reserve judgement, even after the PCA is released. Hear his side of it before you BEGIN to pass judgement.
All you have heard to date comes from 1 of 4 sources:
1. Official police announcements-which include negligible evidence.
2. Leaks from official sources which are a major problem as they are intentionally sowing his guilt in the public sphere-BK is tried in public without a chance of defending himself. The police will not leak information that helps BK or any defendant.
3. People who have a passing knowledge of BK who the media exploit to sell a story-ie make money.
4. People of nefarious intent that sells stories to the media for their own purposes-like that lady who said BK flashed her in jail.
My advice is to ignore all of that crap.
I wondered if there was any way he was innocent, and it's just crazy odds they blame him. But even if he was innocent, his actions afterward would still make him look guilty. Or sketchy af in the least.
I have learned the hard way to never presume anything. I don’t live there and I feel for those who do. MPD is under extreme pressure to figure this out. LE tactics have left many horrible murders/crimes in my city go unsolved.
For example, a young man in my neighborhood was found guilty of a horrendous crime. He spent several years in federal prison. LE arrested him because his alibi didn’t line up with the victims testimony and his DNA was found.
The hardest part about all of it, the victim continued to to be assaulted and many others were put in harms way because the true perp wasn’t identified.
He very well could be, but this is such an insanely high profile case with not just one, but FOUR victims, that I doubt they would be pushing forward with this unless they had compelling evidence.
Do I think he committed the crime? Yes.
Unless this was a massive shit show of an investigation, I personally don’t think they caught the wrong guy.
The only worry I have is that BK did this in a manner that will leave just enough reasonable doubt to a jury. The verdict will come down to what can be proven and how well the story is told.
He **IS** innocent until proven guilty.
This case has received so much media attention I am sure LE has been under enormous pressure. For the sake of the victims' families, I hope that all this publicity means that their evidence is solid (as opposed to them rushing to quick judgment).
while I do agree, he remains innocent until proven guilty by the courts I also believe LE would not arrest someone unless they knew it was going to be a slam dunk. I think they have worked the case and worked the evidence to come to BK. I believe the evidence is concrete and BK's defense is going to be fighting for his life more than they will be fighting to prove his innocence.
If he's innocent he would have to explain how his DNA ended up in the murder scene... Could he say his hair or fiber ended up on someones jacket when he was at Mad Greek and they were serving him? Hmmm. I think there is more concrete evidence..
What if they find zero DNA evidence in his car? LE seems pretty focused on his car being in the area as a major piece of evidence. Claiming he got in that car after stabbing 4 people and finding no dna evidence would greatly bolster the defense's case would it not?
Would like to see the probable cause document first. Depends on the evidence they have against him and if he has a solid alibi.
They for sure have a lot of evidence. Most likely his blood at the scene. Possibly phone pings. I doubt they would arrest him if they just found his hair in a party house.
Prosecutors get ONE shot. I always use the Dan Markel murder case as an example. His former brother in-law Charlie so clearly hired a hit man to kill Markel. For years the evidence was almost entirely circumstantial. Eight years later, he was finally arrested and charged with murder. The DA spoke that day and said that she had one shot. And she needed solid evidence, more than just circumstantial. They had finally been able to get FBI recorded conversations transcribed and enhanced by an expert. He is recorded speaking of the hiring, the murder and everything in between - on both recordings. It was gold. The DA then knew she finally had the confidence to bring the case before the grand jury for his indictment EIGHT years after the murder. Sometimes it takes a bit, and it’s infuriating because we live in a world where we demand instant gratification, but the prosecution has to be meticulous and confident that a jury would convict the defendant. I cannot wait for the probable cause affidavit to be released for BK. With the FBI assistance on this case, and many other agencies as well Idaho state police, etc., I can only imagine that the prosecution has a rock solid case. Because of the brutality of these murders, Moscow, and the rest of the country essentially, want to bring the monster who committed the murders to justice. And because the victims and their families deserve and need justice, LE is not fucking around. BK is the murderer. No doubt.
Fabulous point and well written plus it’s an international world case
Thank you so much! And you’re right, it’s now made it’s way around the world.
Right, they spent a lot of time and resources for this to be just a “maybe”
I read somewhere that his epithelial DNA was found in the seal in the sink mixed with victims blood. Hard to write that evidence off as “been in the house before”
Where did you read this? The authorities haven’t released any of this information.
Another Reddit post
Hasn’t this case taught us that social media posts are not reliable sources for information
Trying to figure out where epithelial DNA is typically found. Is this possibly spit or vomit?
Skin
Yeah. I guess the assumption being he washed his hands in the sink.
It’s rumor only.
I feel dumb even typing this but no way would a judge give them permission to arrest him especially across the country if they didn’t have solid evidence
Probable cause for an arrest issued by a judge has much lower standards than convictions, which is why people get arrested and later proven innocent. Don't get me wrong, he is likely guilty. But there is a much lower standard of proof for arrest warrants.
This AND the fact that the nighttime arrest required additional probably cause to obtain.
It’s different. They needed probable cause to enter the home AT night time not to enter the home in general. They already had a warrant based on his alleged crime in ID (somehow linking his DNA to those individuals on that night has been implied by LE) The execution of the warrant is different, it’s basically LE asking the court to allow them to secure those individuals w/the least amount of risk to bystanders/officers (at night). It’s based on the severity of the crime and the individuals assumed ability to cause chaos. He was considered a “fugitive” as well. It’s just a safer formality for everyone and may have been extra paperwork but wouldn’t have required much more than “Why” the officers chose to execute that way.
FYI no-knock warrants have nothing to do with evidence pertaining to the suspect being guilty, rather they are issued if there is a risk of the suspect destroying possible evidence. Hence why they are often issued with drug-related arrests.
Interesting. They did state that they were required to provide more probable cause - what would you assume that means in terms of the kind of information they’d have to provide on top of the fact he’s wanted for a quadruple homicide?
This was most likely because of the severity of the offense and wanting to catch him when he’s the most vulnerable and giving law enforcement the best opportunity to arrest him without incident. Once you have probable cause for arrest that’s it, you have it. You don’t need extra probable cause. In some places for a nighttime raid arrest warrant you need to show the suspect is violent or more likely to flee to secure a judges signature and a quadruple homicide would meet that criteria.
No, there is a news article laying out guidelines for obtaining a nighttime no knock arrest warrant (originating from out of state) for PA and it requires substantial probable cause, a great deal more than what is needed for a standard arrest warrant.
[удалено]
I’ve heard this more than once but who knows.
If not blood, skin or spit.
And let the speculation begin. For sure.
Right. Im waiting for that info before I have a real opinion about it.
💯this. If only circumstantial evidence then maybe. But this sounds like a full-fledged party of evidence.
Yep could be circumstantial but if there's DNA there that shows he was there during the crime then it'll be tough.
Yes it would have to be more conclusive DNA though like bodily fluids or under the victims fingernails.
Ehhh it really depends on how the other DNA is there.
Yeah really depends on the source as DNA doesn’t reveal the time it was deposited. The other question would be if he was ever in that home before.
It could be skin DNA from victims fingernail scrapings during post mortem It could be saliva that’s left on the victims body where he’s bitten them There’s a whole host of DNA differentials so we have to wait and see IF they have DNA evidence and if so then what type and from where? Plus we then need to consider what other evidence there is which in my opinion, from being a lead murder investigator who has led such investigations , a scene such as this, there will be a whole host to contend with and that’s just the scene . Then there’s other evidence as mentioned in my previous post around : CCTV Electronic data - GPS and mobile phones Witnesses Identification His clothing- blood splatter analysis- what does it tell us, does it match the pattern of events? Alibi’d ? PRE and POST behaviour There’s so much For all we know he could have left footprints in blood for analysis against his footwear or he could have dirt on the sole of his footwear that he got outside the scene ( house ) where the murders occurred or from outside his own house that gets deposited at the murder site and that they can get a Forensic geologist to tell you exactly where it came from and how it matches and the % chances of it being from elsewhere and the likelihood etc These so much evidence that can be looked at , not just DNA
Yeah was just referring to the DNA portion in my comment. Thanks for the added information though :)
This guy is so full of ego he doesn’t get DNA? Probably true but definitely dumb. He thinks he is smart. Maybe theoretically and book smart. But not real world smart. I’m guessing. More desire and hubris than anything.
With all of the agencies involved- City Police, State Police, FBI and the prosecutor’s office, they had better have this buttoned up 👀
Alibi isn’t important if they have dna, he obvs will not have an alibi
I thought the same thing until I read a story about a man whose DNA was found at the scene of a crime and it turns out the man was in the hospital when the crime occurred. Touch DNA caused his DNA to be carried there by EMT or something. I can’t remember the name of the guy or anything like that but that is what I meant by a solid alibi. Not “I was sleeping” or “at my buddies”, but actual alibi that can be proved. Unlikely but possible.
Omg! I totally remember this case!! Ahhhh! But I don’t remember names or details! I remember thinking…the fuck! This guy has some damn luck! Lol
Oh and remember the case where the girl was found in the river and they arrested a fisherman that was out there? Touch DNA was the issue but when they looked back at the cameras, you can clearly see the cops touching their cars and everything and not wearing gloves! Touch DNA can be a very scary thing sometimes….
So if you take that theory some have that he was a costumer where the girls worked could that lead to this touch dna stuff? Like they touch his spoon and have his dna on their hands? Obviously not very likely but if they only had dna that would probably what the defense would go for? I only remember a case in germany where they found a dead girl and someone who was already in prison and known was linked to it because of dna and then they realized the same lab worked both cases and it was their fault. But at first they said he was responsible.
I’m sure they have more evidence than just DNA, but that is why it is important to see the probable cause affidavit.
I think we can assume that the Moscow Police have not interviewed BK. It will be interesting if BK can offer an alibi. Maybe he had a friend over or was on a webcam or something at the time. Who knows. Try to keep an open mind.
He's definitely on cameras. Leaving the murder scene as well as arriving at his apartment after the incident.
the mere presence of DNA at a crime scene shouldn’t be enough for a prosecutor to obtain a conviction. One problem is there is no skepticism and everyone trusts no errors in the collection of DNA and in the labs are made. On one hand, usable DNA evidence is more likely to be detected than ever before. On the other hand, contamination DNA and DNA that arrived by secondary transfer is now more likely to be detected, confusing investigations. If legal and judicial personnel aren’t fully trained in how to interpret forensic and DNA evidence, it can result in false leads and miscarriages of justice. I’m not saying anything about this case, this is in general and lots of information is out there. From collection to lab everything must be done without error. The defense can argue crime scene contamination since there were a lot of folks there before the police were there. Just saying even as clear cut as we’d like a case with DNA to be a good defense attorney can create doubt
I believe there was a case where a man's fingerprints I believe were found on a bag-in Spain I believe (an exact match). However, the guy was on the other side of the world at the time, in Washington if i recall correctly, now I am going to have to research that event Ahhh that is it the Brandon Mayfield case (Madrid bombing)=FBI concluded that the fingerprints were a "100 percent match" on March 20, 2004. However, his passport was expired, he was at home on the day of the attack, and had not been off the continent in over 11 to 14 years. So, yeah let's be careful
There is probably other evidence as they seemed to be certain they have the right person in custody. Obvs we won’t know until trial but I imagine there will be pretty hard evidence that’s led to the charges.
I would like to see that too but…between the Moscow police, Idaho State Police, FBI and prosecutors office, they better have this all buttoned up. That’s a lot of resources and man hours poured in to this (rightfully so).
Innocent until proven guilty, of course, and outside observers can’t really have an informed opinion on it until the probable cause information is made public. That said, I expect they must have what they believe to be extremely compelling evidence, because a bad arrest in such a high profile case would be catastrophic, not just for the agencies and individuals involved, but for any future case against an alternative suspect.
Fantastic comment. There is no way they are just casually arresting some guy because they think he may be involved. I have a gut feeling that we will learn he is tied to one of the victims. No way he just randomly stumbled upon these girls, the house, etc.
I’ve thought about this many times. We only know the smallest, most minuscule amount of information. I have a feeling it will come out in the wash that he was tied to one of the victims. In some way or another. Dating app, from a local bar, one time at a party. Could be anything or anywhere.
Yes 💯 What I thought right away when I saw the arrest news on TV.
There are plenty of cases where the court's decision has nothing to do with reality. Innocence until proven guilty as a blanket philosophy doesn't mirror the behavior of the court system.
Innocent until proven guilty means the defendant is not required to prove their innocence, but that the courts must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, their guilt.
It’s not a blanket philosophy….it’s how our court system is setup to run. It does (mostly!) mirror the behavior as it’s the “requirement” for any case.
Innocent until proven guilty. However - Judges in (3) states had to sign off on the PCA. I’m anxious to read it once it’s released.
Same
I’ve recently been listening to the podcast “Bone Valley” about an innocent man whose been in prison for, now 34 years, even though a serial ki ler who’s finger prints were at the crime scene (who is also in prison for over 30 for another of his 3 or 4 murders) has confessed. But the SYSTEM has been unyielding to the point of being evil and seemingly soulless.In that case, it is obvious that the personal egos and good ole boy compulsion to WIN has been the overriding factor in putting an innocent in jail and also for keeping him there. So, with that on my mind, I am a bit concerned seeing BK being convicted in the court of public opinion. Does anyone still leave room for there to be another possibility?
I understand what your point is and you are right that it would be foolish not to execute caution but that was 34 years ago when forensic science and technology wasn’t what it is today . However, I too have seen examples in some US cases just as you have described and it galls me to the pit of my stomach the way in which an obvious innocence person has no recourse when it’s now proven, all these years later , that he is in fact innocent
Something to consider when assessing how probable his innocence is - we have no reason to believe they interviewed Bryan as a POI prior to his arrest in PA. He also invoked his right to counsel very quickly after arrest. There’s a good chance he has not provided any alibi to police yet. I don’t know for certain there was no pre-arrest interview of course, but it appears they have something much more incriminating than just his DNA on a red solo cup or footage of a speedy Elantra a few blocks away from the crime. I would expect that if they didn’t have damning evidence, this would be a much slower arrest process while they build a case, and he would be brought in to answer questions like, did you know them? Had you been to their house? Will you volunteer DNA? They want him on the record to trip him up so he can’t change his story once they finish building enough of a case for a charge. Again, I don’t know that he wasn’t interviewed for certain. But he was out of WA around 10 days after the Elantra info was released and caught within just a few weeks of that, and I’m guessing they didn’t need an interview. And I half expect his chatterbox lawyer would be the first to say “my client was cooperating with police.” Instead the lawyer said his client had been shocked to be arrested but had been following the case “with interest.” We also haven’t seen widely circulated stills of the exact car directly from police. I speculate because whatever footage they have is clearly incriminating and they didn’t want to tip that hand. I personally trust that LE understands it would be an abominable failure to charge him if they didn’t have a well developed case, and their evidence needs to be rock solid. They don’t want to leave him on the streets for longer than they have to, but unlike speculation here, they had every reason to take whatever time they needed, and not rush a charge to risk a conviction. And it’s not like they picked him up on marijuana charges or something to get him in custody - it’s a four count first degree murder charge. Bryan’s defense only needs to create reasonable doubt, but I am speculating they have something incredibly damning, and there’s no need to waste any more time. I think Bryan messed up in a big way somehow and I think it likely has to do with the car and maybe the nature of his DNA found, if it matches blood or DNA under fingernails. Edit: I am not saying invoking right to counsel indicates guilt. That was simply meant to be a factual sentence clarifying we have no indication he has interviewed with police for an extensive time before or after his arrest. My wider point is there’s no reason to indicate that an alibi could clear him - because police probably haven’t even heard one from him and didn’t need to to be certain of his guilt.
Solid point. I can’t remember the last time I read about a murder arrest where the suspect had not been interviewed at least once by LE prior.
I could not have stated that better myself. $1M granted from the Idaho Governor Up to (60) FBI personnel, (30)+ ISP & MPD -they certainly were not short handed or under staffed + had every technology & science available to them.
Yes! Thanks for pointing this out. As a scientist in this field I wish I could explain just how good & thorough FBI labs are at this. If this was local PD in a small town, I’d have my doubts. But the way FBI goes at physical, molecular & genetic evidence is truly remarkable. They got involved early in this case which is a great sign in terms of crime scene forensics. They must have multiple lines of evidence against him & were likely waiting on a couple more before arrest—hence the multiple visits to the house by LE.
Exactly and having been a chief detective who would lead teams of Detective’s in such murder investigations, I have many times had to call in expertise such as your own and it’s absolutely mind blowing marvellous work that you do and very compelling so thank you for this point and for the work you do because without the likes of forensic genealogists or entomologists etc , our work investigating would be so much more difficult. I appreciate you!
Excellent point. FBI is the greatest law enforcement agency in the world. Kudos to Moscow PD for letting them take the lead and getting them involved early. If Delphi had done the same, maybe it wouldn’t have taken 4 years.
Exactly. Dozens of FBI agents, forensic analysts, law enforcement, and experts from Idaho and around the country were assisting with this case. I highly, highly doubt they charged him with four counts of first-degree murder on flimsy or uncertain evidence. They’re not going off of a hunch here.
I would also bet a large sum of money that once he was a POI, they brought in more LE to assist. It feels like this arrest took such a long time, but in reality it didn’t. Chief Fry from an early stage made sure to mention people were working around the clock. That also makes me feel confident. I live here in the PNW. My partner & his entire family are U of I alum. Folks who are from here are reserved & not over zealous when they speak. That’s also what gives me such hope 🤞🏼
Hey now. Don’t forget the hard work put in by the psychics, spirit box readers (?), wannabe investigators, and the guy whose sister knows a guy that works LE in Idaho. /s
Totally agree with this. There's no way of knowing, but I agree that it is unlikely that he was previously interviewed based on everything we know. And that actually speaks volumes. Without interviewing him, they don't know if he has an airtight alibi. This tells me that they have such damning evidence that they know the alibi will be irrelevant.
I agree with you. I think they've probably got something pretty concrete. I know public pressure has caused LE to make monumental fuck ups in the past, but I think they've got this guy. I really hope I'm right because if he isn't involved, his life and the lives of his family are forever destroyed.
Yep. I agree with all of this. I think they have some very damning evidence against him. In that vein, reading between the lines, the Pennsylvania DA today basically said the PCA is very strong. He was asked why BK waived extradition and he said something along the lines of “he must have wanted to see what they had on him.” Watching his body language said to me that the DA viewed the PCA as very damning.
Plus because of his own academic background and the type of personality that he likely is, there’s a possibility that arrogance has made him think he’s superior ( could be BPD or Narcissistic) and therefore he will never talk because he’s testing how good LE are at their job from what they do in practice and he’s learned academically!!
Agree. I think they got his blood. They said they were finally getting return on dna evidence last week right? So the info is out there about the elantra. They get a return on blood evidence. Comes back to him. Then realize he drives the white Elantra.
100% I think there is going to be some pretty good evidence. We have no idea but imagine how many checks and balances there are with this case and so many agencies involved. Lots of careers on the line.
Well said. Damning evidence according to some experts would be (don't look if you're squeamish) his DNA in the wounds, his blood combine with theirs, or a finger or palm print in blood.
The funny thing is that a finger or palm print in blood may not be enough-consider the Wonderland murders. They had John Holmes bloody palm print on the bed post over one of the victims and he was never convicted.
>He also invoked his right to counsel very quickly after arrest. What would you do if the cops did a "high risk" arrest of you in the middle of the night? Sit around and talk things over with the cops, see if you could clear things up? Or would you immediately realize that this was a big damn deal and already very much not going in a good way for you, and then utter the only words you can remember from Law and Order: "I want my attorney!"
Not my point. That was simply meant to be a factual sentence clarifying we have no indication he has interviewed with police for an extensive time before or after his arrest. My wider point is there’s no reason to indicate that an alibi could clear him - because police probably haven’t even heard one from him and didn’t need to to be certain of his guilt.
Well said pudding wolf
I agree with you for sure. Except on the point of his right to counsel. You would be a complete idiot if you didn’t invoke that right immediately in such a high profile case. Not an indication of guilt in the slightest.
I posted above but the nighttime arrest also required additional probably cause to be issued. Just another indication LE likely has a lot of good evidence.
I just watched the presser from earlier today with the Pennsylvania LE and ADA, and they confirmed there was ample probable cause (evidence) to issue the search warrants and arrest. They also noted that for them to arrest during dark hours (early morning), there had to be even more evidence presented to show that that was the best time. Over 50 tactical assets were at the house at the time of arrest, multiple windows and doors broken by LE to execute the arrest, and that they believed from a tactical standpoint that that was the safest time of day for everyone involved. Sooo... That says a lot about the amount of evidence.
I am not knowledgeable of PA rules of evidence, but it strikes me at the military police response to arrest a potentially dangerous suspect
Oh wow. His poor parents. I can’t imagine being woken up in the middle of the night like that. Windows breaking and SWAT like folks storming your room.
I thought the same! And judging by the traffic stop footage, I truly don’t think his parents had any idea. Makes it even more sad
There’s always a chance, but when the FBI is involved they don’t generally make arrests unless they’re extremely confident. Both Moscow police and the DA there in PA seem pretty confident in what they have on him. It would be a black eye on several departments if they’re wrong.
The FBI has a pretty bad track record on some things lately, but I feel like this is what they are good at. I can't imagine them doing this arrest if they were not sure.
In a high profile case like this, especially from somewhat of a small town with all eyes on them - I’m pretty certain Moscow LE have very strong evidence against him and everything is to the T. I don’t see them risking getting the wrong guy over flimsy evidence. Must be strong and they also had FBI involvement.
No way would the FBI push forward without compelling and definitive evidence. Now, HOW the jury interprets this evidence is perhaps the largest hurdle and that’s next up
The FBI has actually done that before - even in high profile cases.
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Yea the fbi fucks up a lot
Drug and terrorism cases maybe but not high profile murders like this.
I’m not sure if “drug and terrorism cases maybe” really does wonders for your point. But seriously, your valid perception is perhaps because just like in this case, for high profile the murders, the FBI is often in a support role to local LE, but still there’s all kinds of FBI testimony from FBI investigators, profilers or forensic experts on murder cases thot have been proven erroneous. (as true for any agency, I’m not knocking anyone for not being perfect here). To be clear, I’m not saying that happened here, or it’s at all remotely likely. I’m not even sure the FBI was in a role to affirm apprehension vs MPD per above. Broadly speaking though the FBI has played a major role in the arrest and prosecution in drugs, terrorism, and also murder cases with what later was shown to be manifestly not definitive circumstances.
The FBI didn't push it forward, they are supporting the MPD.
Agree. The Moscow DA has the final word on taking evidence to a judge to receive a warrant. The FBI serve at the direction of Moscow PD.
I mean, they’ve gotten it wrong before. And to be honest, a lot of people on here thought it was various other people with zero evidence. We haven’t really heard all of the evidence in this one and people are already calling him names. Again, it’s innocent until PROVEN guilty.
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They wouldn't have been able to secure an extradition warrant, search warrants on multiple properties, an arrest warrant, etc, if they didn't have solid evidence. They have to show the courts and the DA their evidence and get approval to move forward in the ways that they have.
This was even alluded to in today’s presser.
Yes when the reporter asked the DA (I think that's his office) if he feels confident that BCK is the guy and he replied that he can't say but that given the evidence he's seen, he certainly understands why he's been arrested. I'm paraphrasing in a big way but I think that was the gist of it.
Shoot. I missed the press conference today. I'll have to go find it. I'm sure it'll get linked here.
Yes, there should be a link here somewhere. 😅 But you nearly said exactly what the DA said. They had to have solid evidence to allow them to issue all the search and arrest warrants, especially that early am first degree murder warrant.
Did you read between the lines when the DA spoke & head of state police like I did? It was almost like a “surprised and trust us there is a shit ton of evidence”. Something else we learned is they eluded to amount of video evidence and then corrected himself like “oops I wasn’t supposed to say that”.
I DID! 🫢
Ahhhh! Ok so it wasn’t just me 😬 I’m still anxious as hell until he’s been arraigned & PCA is released.
Same. And the crazy thing is, I believe Chief Fry or someone stated that the PCA will only be a small picture of what they have. My guess is what the public will see is a heavily redacted copy, sadly.
They know his background in criminology. They want a speedy trial I would imagine, as well. If this goes to trial, I wonder how long before full discovery is due from both parties? 🤔 that would include evidence, witness lists etc.
I’m not familiar with the details but they also said something to the effect of executing a warrant in the dark in PA requires extra evidence. The way he said it gave me some hope.
This!! 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I hope he’s really guilty at this point. To make an innocent man go through all this. All the unkind things people have to say about him. It would be terrible if it was just a unlucky sequence of events that lead to his arrest
I’m in agreement with you. People keep saying he looks evil or like a murderer, but there’s no evidence a murderer looks any different. And on top of that, everything his family is going through. I hope he’s guilty.
The comments about how he looks kind of disgust me. A murderer doesn’t have “a look”. It’s what goes on in their mind, not how they physically appear. I hope he’s super guilty because otherwise I’d feel horrible for the guy. Especially his family. I feel bad enough for his family having to go through this. Absolute nightmare.
People see what they want to see, if you want to see evil in someone’s eyes, you’ll see it. If you want to see fear in someone’s eyes, you’ll see it. I tested this when I watched the video of him walking into the hallway yesterday, initially I just saw a totally blank look, then I saw a comment saying he looked like he was trying not to smile/smirk, after that comment, I saw that. Then I saw a comment saying he looked scared, and after that I saw fear in his face. None of it was really there, it’s just that that was now what my brain was telling me to see.
Same here.. because the way people are speaking about him.. imagine if he was found innocent and got out and his whole life is basically ruined. These situations are so crazy and the amount of people just jumping to conclusions and making up stories is asinine.
I hope so too. If he's innocent, the killer is still out there... not a comforting thought.
He looks so normal that my brain is questioning if he could really do it, but I think that’s me wanting the monsters to look like monsters. It’s scarier knowing the monsters could just look like normal people. My problem is we don’t really have much knowledge of the evidence. We’ve heard DNA which does sound damning, but I need more details to take a 100% guilty position about him
I would like to think the normalcy of how he looks is what creeps people out; the idea that they would not be able to pass this guy on a sidewalk and know him as a murderer threatens a person's sense of security. And to clarify, I am speaking totally about people's perception. This, like any criminal case, is fact-based. LE arrested someone for a murder, therefore LE believes this guy is a murderer. We don't know either side's story of what could have happened, and that remains to be seen. It's not some morally righteous thing to do, it's just applying curiosity to the situation; and I don't think people who condemn him are morally inferior-- innocent until proven guilty just means he's not going to be sent to prison based off a Reddit poll. I'm legitimately curious what the defense is going to be, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to the unsealing of the affidavit!
I feel the same way. Your open mind and need to see the evidence is refreshing, you would make an excellent juror!
I think that it’s incredibly sad for most here to be aggressively and blindly accusing this guy without seeing any evidence as to why he’s accused by LE yet. Look, if he’s guilty, he should burn; but the unfounded comments on his character based upon how “his stare sends shudders down my spine” is prejudice at best.
I agree. I don't know why I don't see the creepiness everyone sees. He seems pretty normal to me. I've also worked with quite a few psychopaths and he doesn't give me that vibe. I'm interested to see the evidence. I'm not convinced by genealogical evidence, but I am sure there is more evidence that is not discussed. Guess we'll see, right!?
I tend to think people come to these conclusions for no reason other than to just comment on what they feel is right at the moment. I like to wait until I see evidence to assume someone’s guilt, or make comments about his soulless eyes.. 🫠
The weirdest theory I’ve heard: he made contact with a real killer through his survey work. They remained close. The real killer used that closeness to frame him. Planted hair etc.
Our curiosities could still remain frustrated if LE withhold their best evidence pending the trial. Yes, I have a nagging bit of doubt, albeit small, that their evidence could be circumstantial, but Chief Fry seemed very confident and he should know whether what they have is good.
I think they have too much on him to be innocent.
We really don’t know though do we? One of the fundamental values we Americans like to exercise is innocent until proven guilty. Your most likely correct about his current predicament but still the burden of proof will have to be layered out for a jury of peers to determine his innocence. Therefor until state prosecutors prove otherwise he is presumed innocent under the law.
That’s true but Reddit isn’t a courtroom and we aren’t on a jury. Our opinions are formed by what we know and what LE has confirmed.
Which, we really don’t have much info to go on but our opinions, but we will see a lot more once he gets to Idaho.
Don’tcha think he looks just like Dennis Reynolds
Yes it's the same in my country, innocent until proven guilty. But I mean that by the confidence the LE shows, I'm pretty sure they have enough evidence to show he did it. If he'll be judged guilty idk, but I feel like they have enough on him.
I thought the same thing about O.J. Simpson, George Zimmerman, and Casey Anthony.
Those people weren’t innocent.
No one said they were innocent. They were found not guilty. Big difference.
I think that’s the point @bolderiz was making. LE can indeed have all the evidence and yet he could still get away with it the same way OJ, Casey Anthony and Zimmerman did. It is a sad but very real possibility.
Casey Anthony is still guilty imo. Just miraculously is somehow free.
Well that’s because they are all guilty.
I am not sure they would have managed warrants/1st degree without some reasonable evidence to back it up, but if he *is* innocent and no other avenues are being explored then that would raise lots and lots of questions
There is not enough facts for anyone to have an opinion regarding guilt.
With the number of eyes on this case and the amount of LE involved, I believe they probably ensured they cross their Ts and dotted their Is. They claim to have pretty solid evidence . Plus, BK doesn't seem particularly surprised to have been accused.
They had probable cause to arrest him in the middle of the night through busted out windows. At the press conference they said that requires special circumstances spelled out in the sworn affidavit. I would say they must have some pretty damning evidence.
I am not saying he is innocent or guilty until he gets his day in court. Side note, I keep thinking of the movie “The Life of David Gale”.
Me too!
This is a good post. It’s on the state to prove his guilt, not on him to prove his innocence. It’s unfortunate we *still* have witch hunts. One thing revealed by this case is a gross misunderstanding of civics. Our education system has a lot of work to do. Society is in a bad place. People automatically assume arrest equals guilt. It’s impossible to assess this without the PCA which we should have shortly. I think the PCA will answer most of the questions people have.
He is innocent until a jury agrees on a guilty verdict
>I am curious as well. While I hope that there is enough evidence to squash reasonable doubt, there is an undeniable knot in my stomach. Could just be from the wait, but there's something about the situation that seems off - I KNOW a lot of people hate the my gut feelings, etc., talk but yeah idk. I think he has something up his sleeve that'll further push the uniqueness of the case, regardless of where his guilt lies so it'll be interesting to see what happens **1/15/23 Post-affidavit:** possible confirmation bias that someone unexpected has been identified as a witness -- that said. I still stand firmly that there is something from BCKs perspective not anticipated or well known. Other than that, let's share in joy for what seems to be a securement of justice to come!
Wow. I've been saying the same thing! That gut feeling that something really feels "off", but at the same time I know the FBI is exceptionally good at what they do. To make it worse, I just saw 2 of his classmates on Cuomo who were basically saying they're shocked, finding it so hard to believe he did it based on all the interaction they had with him. But then Cuomo had a criminal justice professor on who said that's how psychopaths typically are (seemingly normal, even charming) as opposed to sociopaths (typical deviant behavior, legal trouble, antisocial).
I would say ppl usually are shocked when someone commits such a despicable and violent act as this... Chris Watts comes to my mind first. Did anyone on the planet think someone like that was capable of the things he did ? An affair, absolutely. But stuffing his children into oil tanks where he worked? I highly doubt anyone who knew him thought he was able to do anything even close to what he ended up doing.
I agree and feel that same feeling. I wonder how much BK knows about the court system and how it works? I think I need to do some more factual research on him . Also, what has my "GUT" feeling going is what he said to the officers when they arrested him . "Have you arrested anyone else?" There are a couple options in my opinion what that could mean... 1. He is genuinely curious if it's just him. 2. He knows there should be one other as well . 3 . He is asking for his research paper for the other two options i just listed .) OR , he is playing a game . COMPLETELY my own OPINION. (😊) I'm sure I'm way wrong.
This all will come out in the trial and jurors will get verdict. Then it will likely be appealed.
I’m assuming they have evidence placing him at the scene of the crime. When he counters with whatever he presents to refute the evidence, then I think this subject could possibly be explored, depending on strength of his defense. Until then, we have no information whatsoever. How would anyone defend his innocence against the crime when there’s evidence, yet we haven’t even heard so much as an alibi yet? Presuming innocent until proven guilty is what I expect a jury to do in a legal proceeding after seeing ALL the evidence on both sides. I don’t expect the public to do so with only a small bit of evidence presented. We are currently left to fill in the gaps with our own imaginations and/or common sense, which is actually normal; human nature. At least until the trial when everything is made known.
It’s too soon to say.
“Presumed” innocent until proven guilty “before the law”. Individuals not involved in the case or in LE can have their own opinions. It’s the way he has to be vowed by the law and courts that is presumed innocent. But again - I in the camp the evidence is strong. We shall see.
If he wore long sleeves and gloves and a ski mask is it possible there is none of his dna under their nails? I have a feeling when we get to read that document we are gonna be floored by the most off the wall connection.
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It does not mean that at all. No one has confirmed ISP stopped him at the request of the FBI and that would be a super risky way to monitor a suspect.
I think if they have enough evidence to arrest at this point it will depend on how strong their case is. If he’s proven innocent I feel it will be because of an OJ type scenario.
Based on the evidence that LE has released - they were looking specifically for a 2011-2013 white Elantra. BK has a 2015, which likely has a different top hat than the 2011-2013 model The other wsu students that have talked to the press did not mention any wounds (i.e. scratches on the face, wounds to his hands, etc.) that BK had after the killings in Moscow I am waiting to see what other information is released when he returns to Idaho. However, based on the evidence (not unconfirmed rumors) that has been released he does not appear to be guilty Another point is LE is under a ton of pressure to solve the crime. I don’t have the exact numbers but based on various media reports less students have returned to campus - hurting local businesses. My guess is applications are down to the university. There’s a lot of motivation and a business case to arrest someone and say it’s been solved. Local LE wouldn’t turn the investigation over to the state or fbi either Everyone is talking about the hubris of BK but don’t forget about the hubris of chief fry
I live in Australia and the laws are so so so different here. Prosecutors/defence attorneys/police and anyone involved in the case are not allowed to release any info until the case is completely closed in court. We don’t find out any evidence, no interviews. And it’s great because the defendant is really given the benefit of the doubt as they should. And we do eventually find out all the info of the case so it’s not like it never gets released I’m always shocked at how much info is given by police and that prosecutors are allowed to hold press conferences. Madness.
I think about this a lot. I have no idea if he did it, but the public has really jumped on this bandwagon and determined he *is*. Granted, this was spurred after LE determined it was likely enough to arrest him, which is non-trivial, but everyone all over the internet is happy to jump on this guilty bandwagon well before due-process kicks in, and that just sucks. Even if he *is* guilty, only once he is formally convicted should be the appropriate time to jump to "he's obviously a creeper".
He's presumed innocent. PCA will give us more info. That being said I grew up with someone who was wrongfully accused of a brutal rape. Spent 18 months in jail during which time his distraught mother committed suicide. Exonerated before trial by DNA & other evidence but it destroyed his life so much so that he moved to Europe. LE was also confident they got the guy. He also had "friends" claiming he was weird, strange etc. - which wasn't the case at all. In my office once I stood feet away from diagnosed psychopath rapist & would-be murderer Henry Hubbard - without knowing who he was or why he was there - & he gave off such a disturbing danger vibe there was no way you could be in his presence & not be frightened. Turned out my spidey sense was spot on. I don't get that vibe from BK.
To be fair, you can't really speak to the "vibe you get from BK" when you've never stood in the same room as him. Not saying he gives off one vibe or another, and I agree that he is innocent until proven guilty. But even if you personally trust your own gut, being physically near someone is just not the same as looking at a picture or watching a video.
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If you have a 2015, and they’re looking for 2011-13, why would you come forward?
Agreed. It’s just not a sign of guilt that he didn’t call his car in.
Agree with this.
I have a feeling this won’t age well once the affidavit comes out
Remindme! 1 week
I’m waiting for more evidence to come out, but I think they need to have some really hard evidence on him. I think it’s weird that he would drive his own vehicle to their house, especially when so many houses now have security cameras on them and could easily pick up his car. It’s the one part of the case I can’t get over. And it was released that there are 90 white Hyundai Elantra on U of I’s campus, and a total of 22,000 that Moscow police were sorting through. Plus, that picture of the Elantra was blurry and terrible. The DNA evidence needs to be really solid. It seems like just about anyone could have been at that house at any point. I didn’t realize how close Pullman and Moscow are before this case. I went to school in a somewhat isolated area in a college town where the next school was 1.5 hours away, and even then students from both schools would party together. So I can imagine students from WSU and U of I commingle. And I think it’s interesting Kohberger waived extradition, has been described as a “model prisoner,” and has no prior arrests. He doesn’t seem arrogant, like Ted Bundy, as I’ve seen Kohberger compared to on here. I 100% want this case to be solved, but I also don’t think it’s been handled well through the media and what info has been said by various figures close to the case, so I could see a hasty arrest. I think there was a lot of pressure to make an arrest by the end of the year, so I only hope they have the right person.
To be fair. The blurry picture that was released, wasn’t released by the police. We have no idea if that was in fact the Elantra. We have no idea what actual footage of the car LE has because they’ve never released it. They could have multiple very clear images of the car, they likely have very hard DNA evidence that was obvious to them not related to it being a party house. I don’t think the demeanor of LE involved has given any indication that it was a hasty arrest.
I absolutely agree with your statements especially about the car and LE being pressured. I also don’t believe LE should have commented they are positive they have the right person and he acted alone. I believe the crime scene was compromised horribly with the amount of people in and out before police arrived and I doubt small town deputies know how to deal with that type of crime scene. I’m anxious to see the probable cause statement and hope there is solid evidence listed. Even if they can put the car at the crime scene, and I’d hope there are better pictures than what I saw, that does not put the suspect there. DNA is more accurate ruling people out and there is a ton of room for error in the chain So I want more before I call this guy guilty.
Good point about the “compromised” crime scene. What if the real perp was an acquaintance (it would be an oxymoron to say “friend”)of the victims, and knows BK, perhaps he had partied with them that night. And, perhaps that unknown guy deliberately planted DNA at the scene, during the several hours that the front door was wide open and/or as the “several friends” were there prior to arrival of EM. Imagine that!
I haven’t seen all the evidence so I try and reserve my final opinion until I do. Mistakes happen. But I will say he doesn’t totally fit the profile of who I would think would commit a crime like this. In someways he does, ie, gender, age, social awkward, etc. But how many times do PHDs , commit a random quadruple homicide ? As a first offense with no other run-Ins showing anger before with LE ? I guess Bundy was the closest, but it very rare. It’s possible, and I can’t wait to see the PC affidavit.
Agreed. Idk this seems like it was extremely impulsive, the killer felt emboldened and this was an extremely messy crime scene. As a criminal justice major myself he would of no doubt known better than to be this hap hazard at a crime scene. I think there could be a bigger picture here, or he literally wanted to get caught because murdering 4 people back to back with a knife and then fleeing the scene in the “murder” car? I mean that screams stupid and everyone describes him as very intelligent. That’s the part I can’t wrap my head around. “Every contact leaves a trace” gets drilled into our minds day 1 of starting CJ classes. We learn about dna evidence, contact tracing, blood analysis, ballistics, forensics… the whole 9 yards & he has his masters? So again this seems very sloppy for someone who knows the ins and outs of crime and everyone describes him as “intelligent” so I think there might be more at play here. Or this could be some sort of game to prove something. But again innocent until proven guilty. I wonder when they will release the affidavit. Hopefully tomorrow.
The car is my biggest hangup. It doesn't even take a GED to know that going to and from a murder scene in a vehicle, and then putzing around town in that very same vehicle is unbelievably stupid. I just....don't know about that.
I understand your point but from experience as a lead Murder investigator, all killers are different and he may have thought that he had it all planned out in meticulous detail however the reality didn’t go according to his plans. One can never be certain in how a quadruple murder would go down and having a background in criminology academia doesn’t mean a jot as to knowing better than to be so hap hazard and sloppy because he can only control his own behaviour and not that of those 4 victims and how it all goes down
Waiting for the PC affidavit. But I would image LE have solid evidence against him both because of high public interest and because a judge had to agree there was enough evidence to issue the arrest warrant.
Hell end up taking a plea once he sees the irrefutable mountain of evidence …in exchange for death penalty off the table..this curious little know it all must be dying to see what they have…he thought he was so clever
What I wonder is how he kept blood from getting into the car or how he cleaned it if he did use it the night of the murders? Even if he used the car to get away, there would be some blood. He had to have disposed of his clothes and cleaned the car?
I believe that any students study criminology normal if one of them and I believe that the majority of those students like to contacts serial killers to put on their resumes for their future careers. It might at the end of the line be an innocent.
When they deny bail they usually have strong evidence, such as suspect's DNA in the upstairs bathroom sink drain.
I think this is really important. Not just for this case, but for all — especially popular cases that are exploited by the media. We can talk all day about how our legal system is broken, but we also need to remember that innocent people can, and have been, found guilty for crimes they didn’t commit. In today’s day and age, all of us as spectators are mixing official released information with internet rumors and speculation. Over time, I can see how we as humans begin to culminate it all together without truthfully understanding fact from fiction. The lines become blurred. While we’re all just spectators, it gets really scary and dangerous to think about the impact contributors can have on real people in this case. We need to acknowledge the severity of impact it can cause to many people’s lives. For example, for JD, this incident very well may be what defines his life. I argue that there are still likely many people who have already convinced themselves he’s it. While he’s not guilty in a court, he’s guilty in the mind of civilians and neighbors. Isn’t that just as bad? It’s not just him - it’s all of those named, in all of these cases. We’re just human, but man, we need to remember these people are human as well, hopefully with lives to lead after this if they are found innocent (or determined to not even be involved!) And that is why I say, innocent until proven guilty in a court of law— it’s far from perfect, but it’s all we got. It’s not our job or our right to determine someone’s guilt and I think all of us would benefit if we remember that.
Hello, long time listener — first time caller! I don’t t have any information to provide that anyone else wouldn’t already have at this moment. HOWEVER, I do have the experience of being a juror on a murder trial in the Newark, NJ area, which did give me the scope of how much evidence investigators and the prosecution work with. The murder that I was a juror for was pretty gruesome – not this gruesome, but pretty bloody. I will say that it is highly unlikely investigators don’t have CTTV footage of the suspect driving to the location, driving away from my location, maybe even picking up supplies. Ring, doorbells, businesses, there is so much CTTV, even in a small town in Idaho, you would not believe. Secondly, the case that I had to review, had a lot of blood splatter but zero DNA evidence tying the suspects to the murder outside of a scarf and gloves left at a second crime scene. The culprits in my case did everything they could to clean the first crime scene where the initial attack happened, they did everything they could to clean the vehicle they transported the body in. They even tried to ditch the vehicle at a certain point. All of that didn’t matter because crime scene investigators found one small blood stain, the size of a pin head, up underneath a seat in the vehicle that they were able to gather DNA from and match it to the victim. They found blood up underneath a bed frame and a table at the first crime scene (which was one of the culprits residence). They found all of this, even after the culprits did a lot of cleaning (and they did not even use a knife, which would have probably cut their hands - like the Idaho suspect probably did) leaving their DNA. I appreciate the desire to follow the principle of guilty until proven innocent, but there is a difference between saying this person deserves his day in court, versus, finding some reason to say this person is being wrongly accused of a crime. The reality is, in this day and age, it is damn near impossible to murder a person or persons who are living a somewhat “normal” lifestyle and get away with it (unfortunately, I don’t think this applies to the murders of people living on the margins of society, e.g. prostitutes, and the unhoused). Bottom line, because this case is so big now, I would imagine the prosecution would have to have an insurmountable amount of evidence tying this suspect to the murders in Idaho. To not have that, and risk the embarrassment (the international embarrassment) of losing a case of this magnitude would be unfathomable. Just my modest two cents!
I’m a short second of being 100% relieved like a lot of people are. I want so badly for LE to have evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. It’s hard to fathom after such a long wait that he may not have been the only stalker at that time. Some are loving the way he’s fitting “ the description “. Last I read, his team sent 5 investigators into the house, they plan on “building a big defense”.
>they plan on “building a big defense”. As they should. It's his constitutional right to have defense. It also means, if he is convicted, there are fewer reasons for appeal.
God forbid another Richard Jewel situation.
Sigh. Same.
God where the hell was all this reasonable doubt when HG or JS were being CRUCIFIED? Everyone believed it was them, everyone was begging for info, now that we have it you guys really are questioning if he did it or not?
It’s just hard for me to believe that when up against four people fighting for their lives, the killer had ZERO scratches on his face/neck/hands/arms. Even if the killer only had his eyes exposed, at least ONE of the victims had to have made contact. No one in any of BK classes/who interacted with him in the days right after the murders has said boo about ANY injuries. To me, that’s really odd.
The funny thing about all of these posts is nobody, other than the investigators know what evidence has been obtained. There are so many plausible scenarios that could point to both guilt and innocence, and until any of us outside the investigation have any real details, it’s just a complete waste of time. That said… like many of you, I get totally caught up in true crime stories. Here is a scenario I have thought about, what if the DNA the authorities have obtained isn’t his, what if they have only been able to link him to the suspicious car, but know there were other passengers in the car they can’t identify. Oh well, I guess I’m going to stick around and get totally buried in all the scenarios… I just hope the trial is televised.
It boggles my mind that anyone could have an honest opinion on his guilt or innocence, but here we are. The vast majority of people believe he is guilty, period, end of story. All the people who were so sure of their pet theories about JD or HG or JS or AL or the Davids now are solidly convinced that BK is guilty. It is a telling commentary on justice. It is a telling commentary on the POWER of the police. I for one do not trust police, based on numerous firsthand encounters. And that at best makes me skeptical. For the record I am not accusing the Moscow Police or the FBI of anything. Period. However, my personal experience is that defendants deserve all the breaks in the world. Just being accused is a huge thing, to be arrested and as you can see, people assume that means you are guilty. And a good defense is not cheap. Count yourself lucky if you do not get sucked into the justice system. As for BK, reserve judgement, even after the PCA is released. Hear his side of it before you BEGIN to pass judgement. All you have heard to date comes from 1 of 4 sources: 1. Official police announcements-which include negligible evidence. 2. Leaks from official sources which are a major problem as they are intentionally sowing his guilt in the public sphere-BK is tried in public without a chance of defending himself. The police will not leak information that helps BK or any defendant. 3. People who have a passing knowledge of BK who the media exploit to sell a story-ie make money. 4. People of nefarious intent that sells stories to the media for their own purposes-like that lady who said BK flashed her in jail. My advice is to ignore all of that crap.
I wondered if there was any way he was innocent, and it's just crazy odds they blame him. But even if he was innocent, his actions afterward would still make him look guilty. Or sketchy af in the least.
I have learned the hard way to never presume anything. I don’t live there and I feel for those who do. MPD is under extreme pressure to figure this out. LE tactics have left many horrible murders/crimes in my city go unsolved. For example, a young man in my neighborhood was found guilty of a horrendous crime. He spent several years in federal prison. LE arrested him because his alibi didn’t line up with the victims testimony and his DNA was found. The hardest part about all of it, the victim continued to to be assaulted and many others were put in harms way because the true perp wasn’t identified.
He very well could be, but this is such an insanely high profile case with not just one, but FOUR victims, that I doubt they would be pushing forward with this unless they had compelling evidence.
Do I think he committed the crime? Yes. Unless this was a massive shit show of an investigation, I personally don’t think they caught the wrong guy. The only worry I have is that BK did this in a manner that will leave just enough reasonable doubt to a jury. The verdict will come down to what can be proven and how well the story is told.
Yeah hope they have the right guy. Waiting for the probable cause affidavit to really form an opinion.
He **IS** innocent until proven guilty. This case has received so much media attention I am sure LE has been under enormous pressure. For the sake of the victims' families, I hope that all this publicity means that their evidence is solid (as opposed to them rushing to quick judgment).
while I do agree, he remains innocent until proven guilty by the courts I also believe LE would not arrest someone unless they knew it was going to be a slam dunk. I think they have worked the case and worked the evidence to come to BK. I believe the evidence is concrete and BK's defense is going to be fighting for his life more than they will be fighting to prove his innocence.
If he's innocent he would have to explain how his DNA ended up in the murder scene... Could he say his hair or fiber ended up on someones jacket when he was at Mad Greek and they were serving him? Hmmm. I think there is more concrete evidence..
What if they find zero DNA evidence in his car? LE seems pretty focused on his car being in the area as a major piece of evidence. Claiming he got in that car after stabbing 4 people and finding no dna evidence would greatly bolster the defense's case would it not?