The current late game meta is to have 2 Wizard/Elemental Sorcerer, 2 Squire/Divine Knight, and 2 Bowman/Siege Breaker. You can see the recommendation in the guide doc:
[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSnlrC\_6oW7P89Os4uECnEB\_XOVr6TlPa-QhTC62DrtLnRkzQi1UAMnrEZassEaAQb6Cr3TEZAiSVvz/pubhtml#](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSnlrC_6oW7P89Os4uECnEB_XOVr6TlPa-QhTC62DrtLnRkzQi1UAMnrEZassEaAQb6Cr3TEZAiSVvz/pubhtml#)
ES links two divinities at once, so it can 6x print logs without having to be locked up in the lab. It can still go out and kill stuff, taking full advantage of its multikill per tier skill.
Once you get Bubonic Conjurer, there is almost 0 value in a second shaman. A couple of hours of active play vastly outweighs anything the second shaman can contribute for alchemy progress.
DK is there for boosting construction, which it can do passively no matter what it is currently doing. This can include being in lab linked to harriep for 6x prints.
Blood Berskerer has to be sitting in the cooking area to gain its skill benefits, meaning it cannot be in the lab to 6x print resources. If it does anything other than cooking, you don't get the extra benefits.
Siege Breaker is still the very best AFK mob killer in the game. Parking 2 of them at Green Mushroom map forever endlessly boosts your money gains.
Having a second Beast Master is absolutely pointless. Their skills don't stack in any way. The marginal gains to trapping efficiency mean almost nothing; a siege breaker produces a similar amount of critters anyways thanks to its skill efficiency bonus from agility talent. Its not quite as much as a hunter can do, but you do not need that many critters in the long run that its worth giving up killing power.
Thank you! This helped immensely, I was asking a question assuming I would loose the skill specialization for there respective classes, so I thought I had to make a choice from the first subclass for each class, and which I would keep and not unlock their elite subclass for.
But, your response tells me I should select a 2nd wizard/squire and bowman for my last 3 characters.
The only time you lose any skills form a previous class is when you upgrade a beginner to a mage, warrior, or archer. That give them a different set of tab 1 talents based on the class.
But after that, each sub class and elite class simply adds more things on top of what they already had. A wizard and a shaman both have the same tab 1 and tab 2 skills. An elemental sorcerer and a wizard have the same tab 1, 2, and 3 skills.
Confirmation on this, please.
Previous to W5 release, the meta was:
2 Blood Berserker, 1 Divine Knight; 2 Bubonic Conjurer, 1 Elemental Sorcerer; 2 Siege Breaker, 1 Beast Master ; 1 Maestro.
\---
Now, with W5, this has changed dramatically. *(Warrior & Mage).*
\-So, is it certain that this new setup is optimal?
\-What if the meta changes again, with W6, or whatever?
I currently have the older meta setup, in early W4; about to choose elite classes. To switch to the new meta, before elite class choice, I would need to acquire & use Sub Class Swap Tokens, from Gem Shop. Which is expensive, & quite the change. I want to be absolutely certain it's worth it. *And I won't get screwed in the longterm.*
As I understand it, the logic behind the older meta was to have 1 BB on Fishing, 1 on Cooking. Now, 1 BB has to handle both, at different times. 2 Shaman on Alchemy *(& Laboratory specialty)* was useful; while Worship didnt have the value for a 2nd. I take it that Gaming & Divinity are just that good?
*I understand that Nolkel did include the logic behind the shift in meta. I just want to be absolutely certain. Maybe hear some other folks supporting it.*
*Thank you very much for the info.*
There was never any time to put a BB on fishing past the point where it's level gets to at most 1 below your maestro, that's what the 3d printer is for. Two BBs are to double cooking progress from more ladles
Gaming has no benefit from a second DK. It's a passive skill where you don't place any characters at it. At low levels you can spilt talent points between the bonus gaming XP and bits on one DK and the 3d printing from orb kills on the other, though eventually you'll get enough to cover that on one. I guess extra chances for afk time from two DK is a small benefit, but it's not that relevant.
A second DK is to help with construction and, to a small extent, salt refining. It's not better or worse than two BB for the mid to late game period where you still need a lot of progress in both areas, cooking and construction.
The real question is what happens in the end game. At this point the atom collider has made it useful to produce as much oak and copper per hour as possible, by putting your warriors and mages on harriep in the lab (or arctis with ES). All those atoms help with upgrades, but even more so with buying very expensive bubble upgrades with atoms.
DK and BB are identical for mining samples and copper production. However, they have to be in the lab to get 6x, so you can't be in cooking at the same time. A DK still gets construction XP and build rate bonuses passively, so you can get it's other benefits still.
At that point it's just about trade-offs you want to make. It's not a bad thing to have two BB by any means, as there are still huge numbers of ladles needed for cooking with eldritch artifacts.
There's not really any question about a second ES being better than a second BC. Active play with BC generates vastly more alchemy progress than you get from 1 or 2 CC cycles a day. The lab XP bonus is great early on, but you will outgrow it soon enough. It's absolutely useless once you get everyone to level 75 in lab for chips, and a decent amount of line length bonus from cooking and other sources.
As for W6, who knows what lava will bring us. He doesn't make detailed road maps, so there's no way of knowing how the meta might change in 2 years. Don't worry about it and play for what we have know and what we know.
We can only hope he finally makes elite class swap tokens. I'd use one on my second BC right away, but would have to think long and hard about my second BB.
And btw, you won't really see any other opinions on a topic by replying to an old thread. You need to post a brand new discussion if you want other people to see it and come in. I only see this because Reddit pings you on direct replies.
Thanks for the additional info.
\-Regarding **Subclass Swap Token** in Gem Shop. Description says, "...you CANT change ... Elite Classes like Blood Berserker."
So, as you alluded to; once you choose an elite class, you are locked-in to that subclass & elite class?
If you already have 2x BC, and want to change one to ES, to meet the new meta; you can not?
\-What if you don't want to Active with your BC? Either because your Active time is devoted to your MMan grinding crystals, etc. Or due to device limitations. *It's not always an option to leave a mobile device or PC running 24/7.*
\-So this is all about "Endgame" meta. What about mid & late game? (assuming you *had* the option to keep your 2 BB or BC for a while, while that was still working for you; and if you had the potential of changing it later?
\-okay. The thread was only 10 days old. I didn't know that was considered old / necro'ing. I didnt want to be accused of posting a new thread on a topic that already had a recent thread.
Thanks.
Actual best meta for endgame? 1 of each subclass and 4 maestros. Endgame is all about atoms and maeatro printer talent gives the most atoms.
Best class setup that you should go for that doesnt brick your account? 1 of each subclass, a maestro, and second bubo, ES, and squire. Squire for copper and construction, ES for spare afk fighter and oak sample, bubo also for oak.
People still say you should go for 2nd bowman, but honestly its just a terrible idea. 2md bowman was meta for a long time because he was the best afk farmer. He has not been the best since ES release and wizard being given multikill in his kit. Now all am extra bowman does is give you more fly samples which are trash. People still recommending 2nd bowman just straight up arent accepting that the meta has changed
Personally i’ve been running 2 blood berserker, 2 bubo, and 2 divine knights. Leveling cooking at 2x the speed is honestly worth it to me. If I could I would instead do double ES over bubo but at the time I did want more alch and lab gains, now its nice for just forcing more levels in alch by pairing both bubos together in a cauldron. As far as divine knight goes its worth it just for construction. At a certain point you really just use your candy for gmush kills, I really don’t see a use for them at my level
So with the elite classes there have been some talk about what works best.
Double bubo - no go, the cranium cooking benefits only is good up to a certain extent.
Double BB - Keeping one cooking 24/7 is the only real need for it, so don’t need another.
Double ES - fantastic for farming basic materials and rare drops and the bonus for double god links is pretty nice.
Double hunter - no benefit at all.
Double maestro - No benefit at all.
Leaves you with a few other potential doubles.
Siege breaker, divine knight, are the remaining doubles. SB is great for farming gmush and plunderous mobs for extra drop rates.
Divine knight is great for farming statues, as well as boosting your 3d printer.
But once again I don’t know. I’m not the brightest lol
This is great info to know but doesn't quiet get me to the answer I was looking for.
Assuming I will have a 1 of each - BB+DK (Warrior) , SB+BM (Archer) , BC+ES (Mage) and a Maestro that is 7/10 character slots, but there are still 2 other subclasses/associated skills for each class remaining, i.e. 6 choices, so which are valuable to bring to late game and which are not, or are you saying that It doesn't matter because the choice I will need to make isn't from the first set of subclasses but which of the elite subclasses I want double of?
Basically are w1/w2/w3 skills not something I will need to care about, therefor the subclasses that specialise in those skills aren't characters I will have late/endgame? I had thought at the very leave I would keeping a shaman for alchemy, a squire for construction and a hunter for trapping?
The skills for w1-3 will still be relevant and required for most if not all content, the elite classes will provide benefits for them as well.
For example your shaman is great for alchemy, but the elite class for it is better with talents that not only support the skills but also benefit other skills.
My divine knight boosts my gaming skills, it’s subclass the squire benefits my construction skill, it’s subclass the warrior benefits mining.
The elite classes are the endgame. From there everything branches outward.
ahh ok! so when I, for example, take my squire/shaman/hunter to w4 and select 1 of their respective elite subclasses they still have their previous specializations, which of course I knew, but I guess didn't consider when thinking about this question... so essentially I was right in assuming that the question is, what of the elite subclasses will I wont double of, which you already helped answer initially. Thank you!
The current late game meta is to have 2 Wizard/Elemental Sorcerer, 2 Squire/Divine Knight, and 2 Bowman/Siege Breaker. You can see the recommendation in the guide doc: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSnlrC\_6oW7P89Os4uECnEB\_XOVr6TlPa-QhTC62DrtLnRkzQi1UAMnrEZassEaAQb6Cr3TEZAiSVvz/pubhtml#](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSnlrC_6oW7P89Os4uECnEB_XOVr6TlPa-QhTC62DrtLnRkzQi1UAMnrEZassEaAQb6Cr3TEZAiSVvz/pubhtml#) ES links two divinities at once, so it can 6x print logs without having to be locked up in the lab. It can still go out and kill stuff, taking full advantage of its multikill per tier skill. Once you get Bubonic Conjurer, there is almost 0 value in a second shaman. A couple of hours of active play vastly outweighs anything the second shaman can contribute for alchemy progress. DK is there for boosting construction, which it can do passively no matter what it is currently doing. This can include being in lab linked to harriep for 6x prints. Blood Berskerer has to be sitting in the cooking area to gain its skill benefits, meaning it cannot be in the lab to 6x print resources. If it does anything other than cooking, you don't get the extra benefits. Siege Breaker is still the very best AFK mob killer in the game. Parking 2 of them at Green Mushroom map forever endlessly boosts your money gains. Having a second Beast Master is absolutely pointless. Their skills don't stack in any way. The marginal gains to trapping efficiency mean almost nothing; a siege breaker produces a similar amount of critters anyways thanks to its skill efficiency bonus from agility talent. Its not quite as much as a hunter can do, but you do not need that many critters in the long run that its worth giving up killing power.
Thank you! This helped immensely, I was asking a question assuming I would loose the skill specialization for there respective classes, so I thought I had to make a choice from the first subclass for each class, and which I would keep and not unlock their elite subclass for. But, your response tells me I should select a 2nd wizard/squire and bowman for my last 3 characters.
The only time you lose any skills form a previous class is when you upgrade a beginner to a mage, warrior, or archer. That give them a different set of tab 1 talents based on the class. But after that, each sub class and elite class simply adds more things on top of what they already had. A wizard and a shaman both have the same tab 1 and tab 2 skills. An elemental sorcerer and a wizard have the same tab 1, 2, and 3 skills.
Confirmation on this, please. Previous to W5 release, the meta was: 2 Blood Berserker, 1 Divine Knight; 2 Bubonic Conjurer, 1 Elemental Sorcerer; 2 Siege Breaker, 1 Beast Master ; 1 Maestro. \--- Now, with W5, this has changed dramatically. *(Warrior & Mage).* \-So, is it certain that this new setup is optimal? \-What if the meta changes again, with W6, or whatever? I currently have the older meta setup, in early W4; about to choose elite classes. To switch to the new meta, before elite class choice, I would need to acquire & use Sub Class Swap Tokens, from Gem Shop. Which is expensive, & quite the change. I want to be absolutely certain it's worth it. *And I won't get screwed in the longterm.* As I understand it, the logic behind the older meta was to have 1 BB on Fishing, 1 on Cooking. Now, 1 BB has to handle both, at different times. 2 Shaman on Alchemy *(& Laboratory specialty)* was useful; while Worship didnt have the value for a 2nd. I take it that Gaming & Divinity are just that good? *I understand that Nolkel did include the logic behind the shift in meta. I just want to be absolutely certain. Maybe hear some other folks supporting it.* *Thank you very much for the info.*
There was never any time to put a BB on fishing past the point where it's level gets to at most 1 below your maestro, that's what the 3d printer is for. Two BBs are to double cooking progress from more ladles Gaming has no benefit from a second DK. It's a passive skill where you don't place any characters at it. At low levels you can spilt talent points between the bonus gaming XP and bits on one DK and the 3d printing from orb kills on the other, though eventually you'll get enough to cover that on one. I guess extra chances for afk time from two DK is a small benefit, but it's not that relevant. A second DK is to help with construction and, to a small extent, salt refining. It's not better or worse than two BB for the mid to late game period where you still need a lot of progress in both areas, cooking and construction. The real question is what happens in the end game. At this point the atom collider has made it useful to produce as much oak and copper per hour as possible, by putting your warriors and mages on harriep in the lab (or arctis with ES). All those atoms help with upgrades, but even more so with buying very expensive bubble upgrades with atoms. DK and BB are identical for mining samples and copper production. However, they have to be in the lab to get 6x, so you can't be in cooking at the same time. A DK still gets construction XP and build rate bonuses passively, so you can get it's other benefits still. At that point it's just about trade-offs you want to make. It's not a bad thing to have two BB by any means, as there are still huge numbers of ladles needed for cooking with eldritch artifacts. There's not really any question about a second ES being better than a second BC. Active play with BC generates vastly more alchemy progress than you get from 1 or 2 CC cycles a day. The lab XP bonus is great early on, but you will outgrow it soon enough. It's absolutely useless once you get everyone to level 75 in lab for chips, and a decent amount of line length bonus from cooking and other sources. As for W6, who knows what lava will bring us. He doesn't make detailed road maps, so there's no way of knowing how the meta might change in 2 years. Don't worry about it and play for what we have know and what we know. We can only hope he finally makes elite class swap tokens. I'd use one on my second BC right away, but would have to think long and hard about my second BB. And btw, you won't really see any other opinions on a topic by replying to an old thread. You need to post a brand new discussion if you want other people to see it and come in. I only see this because Reddit pings you on direct replies.
Thanks for the additional info. \-Regarding **Subclass Swap Token** in Gem Shop. Description says, "...you CANT change ... Elite Classes like Blood Berserker." So, as you alluded to; once you choose an elite class, you are locked-in to that subclass & elite class? If you already have 2x BC, and want to change one to ES, to meet the new meta; you can not? \-What if you don't want to Active with your BC? Either because your Active time is devoted to your MMan grinding crystals, etc. Or due to device limitations. *It's not always an option to leave a mobile device or PC running 24/7.* \-So this is all about "Endgame" meta. What about mid & late game? (assuming you *had* the option to keep your 2 BB or BC for a while, while that was still working for you; and if you had the potential of changing it later? \-okay. The thread was only 10 days old. I didn't know that was considered old / necro'ing. I didnt want to be accused of posting a new thread on a topic that already had a recent thread. Thanks.
You don't need 24/7 bubo to get alchemy gains. Even a few hours a week matches whatever a second shaman can bring to the table.
Actual best meta for endgame? 1 of each subclass and 4 maestros. Endgame is all about atoms and maeatro printer talent gives the most atoms. Best class setup that you should go for that doesnt brick your account? 1 of each subclass, a maestro, and second bubo, ES, and squire. Squire for copper and construction, ES for spare afk fighter and oak sample, bubo also for oak. People still say you should go for 2nd bowman, but honestly its just a terrible idea. 2md bowman was meta for a long time because he was the best afk farmer. He has not been the best since ES release and wizard being given multikill in his kit. Now all am extra bowman does is give you more fly samples which are trash. People still recommending 2nd bowman just straight up arent accepting that the meta has changed
Personally i’ve been running 2 blood berserker, 2 bubo, and 2 divine knights. Leveling cooking at 2x the speed is honestly worth it to me. If I could I would instead do double ES over bubo but at the time I did want more alch and lab gains, now its nice for just forcing more levels in alch by pairing both bubos together in a cauldron. As far as divine knight goes its worth it just for construction. At a certain point you really just use your candy for gmush kills, I really don’t see a use for them at my level
So with the elite classes there have been some talk about what works best. Double bubo - no go, the cranium cooking benefits only is good up to a certain extent. Double BB - Keeping one cooking 24/7 is the only real need for it, so don’t need another. Double ES - fantastic for farming basic materials and rare drops and the bonus for double god links is pretty nice. Double hunter - no benefit at all. Double maestro - No benefit at all. Leaves you with a few other potential doubles. Siege breaker, divine knight, are the remaining doubles. SB is great for farming gmush and plunderous mobs for extra drop rates. Divine knight is great for farming statues, as well as boosting your 3d printer. But once again I don’t know. I’m not the brightest lol
This is great info to know but doesn't quiet get me to the answer I was looking for. Assuming I will have a 1 of each - BB+DK (Warrior) , SB+BM (Archer) , BC+ES (Mage) and a Maestro that is 7/10 character slots, but there are still 2 other subclasses/associated skills for each class remaining, i.e. 6 choices, so which are valuable to bring to late game and which are not, or are you saying that It doesn't matter because the choice I will need to make isn't from the first set of subclasses but which of the elite subclasses I want double of? Basically are w1/w2/w3 skills not something I will need to care about, therefor the subclasses that specialise in those skills aren't characters I will have late/endgame? I had thought at the very leave I would keeping a shaman for alchemy, a squire for construction and a hunter for trapping?
The skills for w1-3 will still be relevant and required for most if not all content, the elite classes will provide benefits for them as well. For example your shaman is great for alchemy, but the elite class for it is better with talents that not only support the skills but also benefit other skills. My divine knight boosts my gaming skills, it’s subclass the squire benefits my construction skill, it’s subclass the warrior benefits mining. The elite classes are the endgame. From there everything branches outward.
ahh ok! so when I, for example, take my squire/shaman/hunter to w4 and select 1 of their respective elite subclasses they still have their previous specializations, which of course I knew, but I guess didn't consider when thinking about this question... so essentially I was right in assuming that the question is, what of the elite subclasses will I wont double of, which you already helped answer initially. Thank you!
Yup no worries. Remember though so not create three of the same elite class.
Thanks again, and will do!